That's true. Unless they decided to actually get into the wrestling business themselves, they will never know anything in the wrestling business. Hell, they won't even know everything there is to know even when they are apart of it. As it's a constantly changing animal that evolves with every passing moment.
I think Al Snow once said "the only people that really know what's going to happen in the ring are the people in the match, everyone else is the mark", and it's pretty much true (double-crosses withstanding). It's kind of like Cody losing at WrestleMania. Maybe he wants to "complete the story", but maybe he's like his dad, and the chase is more important than winning it (I think the longest Dusty held the World title was 88 days).
The internet is kayfabe 2.0. Anytime the word "rumor" shows up in any report or story about wrestling whatsoever, I just file it into "probably not true until shown otherwise". Nobody gets worked harder than internet wrestling fans. "Brawl Out" feels like the biggest work in years.
The funniest part of it is that now with the ocean of knowledge that is the internet at everyone's fingertips the promotions don't even have to work their fans that much because the fans have become quite efficient at working themselves.
That last one is so on point with todays angry "fans" lol They think they know more than TK and if they how Real bookers like them could do so much better with out any knowledge of understanding on this biz. HHH is better then Vince when they do the same things for the company and stock holders not the fans they only care about the bottom dollar.
This is why I try to just enjoy what’s on TV and if I don’t I just turn it off and I don’t complain on the Internet. WWE and AEW are there to make money at the end of the day and will find their way to get revenue one way or another. This why I understand (and am very happy) that CM Punk is back in AEW because he is what they desperately needed in order to get more sales and eyes on the company. This is also why, even though I’m not a fan of his, I see the idea of Logan Paul winning Money in the Bank because he is the ONLY PERSON who battled Roman and Seth, making him somewhat look like a threat, compared to everyone else who is participating in the men’s MITB.
I admit when road dogg said he was a " better sports entertainer than bret hart" i got worked for a minute but i took a deep breath, realized he was just trying to get a rise out of people, and moved on. When ex wrestlers (or people on the internet in general) try and make statements to get attention its best to remeber how sad their life is to have to go that route
In a way I kinda agree with Road Dogg. I enjoy Bret's wrestling ability and his matches, but Road Dogg was more charismatic even though his in ring ability was kinda limited(especially compared to his dad and brothers).
The lines between reality and kayfabe have been so blurred by the inclusion of social media that i honestly thought Rhea’s arm injury was kayfabe and Rey hating his son was reality
The one thing that gets me is still how "protected" wrestling can be still in 2023 even though it is admitted to being a work for years now. Why isnt there for lack of a better term "real" media covering it? I suppose SI writes some articles now and ESPN occasionally talks about it but still predominantly its "dirt sheets" covering it
Spot On Dave! Jim Cornette has made a second career of a gimmick of "The Old Man yelling at the clouds"/"Get off of My LAWN" as it comes to modern wrestling and with a lot of modern shoots (BROTHER) a lot of it can be Tongue in Cheek
Jim is the textbook definition of “worker”. He knows what will get people’s attention, positively or negatively. He takes his natural personality traits and amplifies them in an entertaining way. And then presents everything as if it’s 100% straight up. Whether you like him or not, agree with him or not, you’ve got to admit that the man is sharp.
The titles criticisms are so true. I admit I’m a belt mark myself. The titles are meaningless. Wrestler x could be world champion and never main event a show. Then wrestler y can main event show after, lose constantly and then get a title shot and win.
as someone whos studying journalism, the dirtsheets make me sad. 90% of their reports are based on 'rumors and speculation' which youre not supposed to do in journalism, at all! plus on wrestling news sources on youtube theres a tonne of clickbait - my fave recent one is that a former wwe star had signed to aew... and it was john morrison, whod been fired for a while and had already debuted in aew earlier in the year. not surprising at all lol
Smarks are the new marks. Those who believe everything they see on a dirtsheet are the modern equivalent of those who thought everything they saw in the ring was real.
"It's still real to me damn it!" lol but seriously excellent points made. The only thing that I would say as an internet wrestling mark is that I do enjoy getting lost in the story and drama of the wrestling industry. Even if I will never fully know what is real or not I think that is one of the most fascinating things about wrestling as a genre of entertainment. At its best wrestling takes the reality or perception (or some mixture of both) to craft some kind of narrative or character and much of this is happenstance and rarely planned years in advance. The internet as you mentioned is a perfect tool for doing this and I think that dirt sheets do a good job of keeping interest high in a wrestler or a product.
i could agree with most this the issue is the internet know it alls, like the Movie know it alls, Demand and want things the way THEY say it should. Because they know whats better than the companies. So when the booker or directors do it they way they feel is best for them, these loud and know it alls get mad and bad mouth the product for NOT going the way they demanded. So its evil Vince and evil TK for doing what they feel is best for the company and workers. "They dont know anything about their own business" according the internet Marks who know more then Tony and Vince, sometimes more than HHH. So they get on boardds and comments and bad mouth the business when its not the business it is the know it alls who mad NO ONE listened to them lol
I actually like that WWE have been making titles seem more meaningful lately in kayfabe. Not only the Universal title Roman holds, but the IC Title Gunther holds and even the US Title now. And if MJF gets a good long AEW world title run, then that belt continue to mean something as well. Or mean even more.
😂Yup, a few years ago Becky Lynch and Ronda Rousey had me believing their online feud was real! So much so I thought Charlotte Flair was later added to their WrestleMania match to help Becky out if Ronda tried to shoot! I felt like a clueless Mark for weeks afterward!
After seeing it on a episode list of Darkside of the Ring season 4 recently weirdly enough what probably helped boost Kayfabe a little again back then was probably WCW Bash at the Beach 2000
I love how you used pictures of Jim Cornette while you were talking about not believing everything you hear on podcasts. That dude is amazing on the mic and is so passionate about his opinions and the things he says that it makes the people who are listening to him believe what he says. His promos have always been amazing, and his podcast is just as good.
Yeah there's always gonna be things people are in the dark about and always gonna be people in the business that maintain kayfabe thankfully. Like MJF and Bray Wyatt. Abadon and Danhausen don't do too bad a job of that either. And some wrestlers will even post Twitter updates in character, so good for them. And we do deserve better journalism. One could also argue that as fans, we deserve better booking and story telling too than a lot of what we've been getting. But if it's going to keep making money, then there isn't much incentive for them to improve the product. At least not for a long established company. But one like AEW that's just starting out should want to. Just like if people are going to keep reading dirt sheets, then there's not much incentive for higher quality journalism, I guess.
Another great video, Dave. I agree about Championship Belts. It like a video you did a few years ago that pointed out the technically Jerry Lawler held more championships than Ric Flair and everybody in the WWE.
I admit I still often get caught up in what title belts should be prestigious but that said I get caught in any story in any medium of any franchise if it’s good & I’m a fan of it. Great Video Dave! 🤘😎🤘
Jim Cornette is basically my ride or die but my point is if you don't make yourself a disciple. I don't know how you can approach this topic with any discipline. Obviously you want to cherry pick different things from different people as human nature. But if you don't think there are any honest people. I don't think you could rationalize anything as honest in the business.
Well I specifically said you will never know one way or the other... but at the same time, yea you shouldn't rationalize anything as being honest in the business. Afterall they are conning you from the start
Regardless, at the time, he didn't and yet ppl were still quoting it in an attempt as using it as proof that something was supposed to happen. Like the example I gave. And the fact remains that the point in the video is still accurate, that a promo is not real
You mention that some podcasts might be working their listners, then put up a pic of ole Corny himself. Which begs the question do you think his podcast(s) is working us listeners?
Jim never stopped being the heel manager. He's playing the same character that he's always been. He does it so well that the wrestlers believe the promo's that he cuts on his podcast.
I agree with you on everything except championships. While yes they're not actually competed for, they should always mean something otherwise there's no point in having them.
It wasn't any one thing in particular. It was just the fakeness in general of people being contrarian and spreading nonsense because that's what the internet does. I didn't want to punish the intelligent people and stop them from commenting and it benefits the channel to allow comments, so instead I made it that all comments have to be approved. I may hate reading the stupid stuff, but at least I can filter it out so no one else has to read it. All that being said though... if I did have to pinpoint it to just one comment, even though it was a whole slew, then I would have to narrow it down to a comment (I've since deleted it) where one guy says that WWE owes us because we pay their salaries
Gotta cut the dirt sheets some slack. This is wrestling and plans change all the time especially in WWE so it's very possible they report something that was actually true at the time and then plans changed now everyone is calling them liars.
You only think wrestling changes plans all the time because the dirt shirts themselves say that they do. I don't have to cut them any slack at all because that is not how news works. And again, they blatantly told you WWE was sold to SA and that was an outright lie. But some idiot kept saying "where there's smoke" and doubled down on his falsehood. Good news would only report confirmed facts. That's standard all of us should hold all news to
The criticism of draft criticism is unfair or misleading. People aren't worked up because they don't understand the draft, or that it is all a gimmick. They are critical of how poorly is it executed. Lazy writing breaks the fictional world, and the (needless) removal of consequence robs stories of meaning. Pro wrestling has a long history of inconsistent make-it-up-as-we-go-along storytelling, but that is no reason to not be critical of such. Should people even bother to tune in to the draft, when it doesn't mean anything? And "needless" is a key word, as it isn't like it would be difficult for WWE writers to follow the rules they themselves created, or at the very least bother to write better excuses for when they want to break those rules. Beyond this, there are the fans who legitimately believe that the brand split as a whole creates an inferior product in general, and are perhaps even more critical when the WWE doesn't even bother to follow the "rules" it created.
As stated, this comes down to what you see as the actual goal here. I said, it's goal is to pop the rating and nothing more. On the other hand, if your goal is to have coherence in a fictional world, then that's the exact kind of thing this video is talking about. Further more addressing your point, should people keep tuning in for the draft... I don't know why they do, but they mostly do just that. They shouldn't but it happens anyway. And the brand split produces an inferior product not because of a failing to stick to the rules, it produces an inferior product because as you would word it, it's "needless." The split is completely unnecessary and inhibits options in storytelling. And strict rules will only make that worse.
All of those are excellent points. The fact of the matter is that many fans think they’re on the inside when they’re really not.
exactly fans think there always right and they run the show wen they don't there the marks and Ratings obsessed
That's true. Unless they decided to actually get into the wrestling business themselves, they will never know anything in the wrestling business. Hell, they won't even know everything there is to know even when they are apart of it. As it's a constantly changing animal that evolves with every passing moment.
You are 100% correct. Everyone knows that wrestling is predetermined but we still get caught up in the story.
Exactly, TV shows are predetermined, and people love them. Plus people love to find and post spoilers. Weird huh!
I think Al Snow once said "the only people that really know what's going to happen in the ring are the people in the match, everyone else is the mark", and it's pretty much true (double-crosses withstanding).
It's kind of like Cody losing at WrestleMania. Maybe he wants to "complete the story", but maybe he's like his dad, and the chase is more important than winning it (I think the longest Dusty held the World title was 88 days).
Another brilliancy Dave! Topics like this just aren’t covered elsewhere
Ironically smarks run most of those channels lol
The internet is kayfabe 2.0. Anytime the word "rumor" shows up in any report or story about wrestling whatsoever, I just file it into "probably not true until shown otherwise". Nobody gets worked harder than internet wrestling fans. "Brawl Out" feels like the biggest work in years.
The funniest part of it is that now with the ocean of knowledge that is the internet at everyone's fingertips the promotions don't even have to work their fans that much because the fans have become quite efficient at working themselves.
Exactly! The Brawl Out in AEW could be the modern day "Montreal Screwjob" and it seems like a Half Work
That last one is so on point with todays angry "fans" lol They think they know more than TK and if they how Real bookers like them could do so much better with out any knowledge of understanding on this biz. HHH is better then Vince when they do the same things for the company and stock holders not the fans they only care about the bottom dollar.
Interesting that the biggest mark on the planet is the guy in the thumbnail.
This is why I try to just enjoy what’s on TV and if I don’t I just turn it off and I don’t complain on the Internet. WWE and AEW are there to make money at the end of the day and will find their way to get revenue one way or another. This why I understand (and am very happy) that CM Punk is back in AEW because he is what they desperately needed in order to get more sales and eyes on the company. This is also why, even though I’m not a fan of his, I see the idea of Logan Paul winning Money in the Bank because he is the ONLY PERSON who battled Roman and Seth, making him somewhat look like a threat, compared to everyone else who is participating in the men’s MITB.
Definitely agree about CM punk coming back being what AEW needs I just hope he doesn't get hurt again
@@MangyStray I agree on that hopefully he stays healthy
I just enjoy watching wrestling never go on Social Media or listen to podcasts maybe ups and downs that's it Highlights
The WWE vs AEW people are the biggest marks of all
I literally just made a video about the IWC. Now I got to go to my backup video. This great minds think alike thing is happening alot.😅
Some smarks unironically get more worked than casual fans through the consumption of podcasts and dirt sheets etc.
Absolutely they do
I admit when road dogg said he was a " better sports entertainer than bret hart" i got worked for a minute but i took a deep breath, realized he was just trying to get a rise out of people, and moved on. When ex wrestlers (or people on the internet in general) try and make statements to get attention its best to remeber how sad their life is to have to go that route
You don’t agree with Dogg?
In a way I kinda agree with Road Dogg. I enjoy Bret's wrestling ability and his matches, but Road Dogg was more charismatic even though his in ring ability was kinda limited(especially compared to his dad and brothers).
The lines between reality and kayfabe have been so blurred by the inclusion of social media that i honestly thought Rhea’s arm injury was kayfabe and Rey hating his son was reality
most logical video ive seen about wrestling in a while lol
This video indirectly explains Kevin Nash's comments about LA Knight.
The one thing that gets me is still how "protected" wrestling can be still in 2023 even though it is admitted to being a work for years now. Why isnt there for lack of a better term "real" media covering it? I suppose SI writes some articles now and ESPN occasionally talks about it but still predominantly its "dirt sheets" covering it
Because by and large, it’s still a somewhat niche product.
Spot On Dave! Jim Cornette has made a second career of a gimmick of "The Old Man yelling at the clouds"/"Get off of My LAWN" as it comes to modern wrestling and with a lot of modern shoots (BROTHER) a lot of it can be Tongue in Cheek
Jim is the textbook definition of “worker”. He knows what will get people’s attention, positively or negatively. He takes his natural personality traits and amplifies them in an entertaining way. And then presents everything as if it’s 100% straight up. Whether you like him or not, agree with him or not, you’ve got to admit that the man is sharp.
"Finish the story"
Who says the story has a happy ending?
Cody for one as he laid out exactly how the story gets finished
The dirt sheets have more of its own kayfabe than the actual product
The titles criticisms are so true. I admit I’m a belt mark myself. The titles are meaningless. Wrestler x could be world champion and never main event a show. Then wrestler y can main event show after, lose constantly and then get a title shot and win.
as someone whos studying journalism, the dirtsheets make me sad. 90% of their reports are based on 'rumors and speculation' which youre not supposed to do in journalism, at all! plus on wrestling news sources on youtube theres a tonne of clickbait - my fave recent one is that a former wwe star had signed to aew... and it was john morrison, whod been fired for a while and had already debuted in aew earlier in the year. not surprising at all lol
Love this thinking wrestling fan channel
Life is kayfabe. We're all keeping up appearances in furtherance of the charade.
Buying into the backstage drama of AEW not being a work is another one
Smarks are the new marks. Those who believe everything they see on a dirtsheet are the modern equivalent of those who thought everything they saw in the ring was real.
"It's still real to me damn it!" lol but seriously excellent points made. The only thing that I would say as an internet wrestling mark is that I do enjoy getting lost in the story and drama of the wrestling industry. Even if I will never fully know what is real or not I think that is one of the most fascinating things about wrestling as a genre of entertainment. At its best wrestling takes the reality or perception (or some mixture of both) to craft some kind of narrative or character and much of this is happenstance and rarely planned years in advance. The internet as you mentioned is a perfect tool for doing this and I think that dirt sheets do a good job of keeping interest high in a wrestler or a product.
Great points! It so easy to get caught up in the story of a good wrestling storyline.
i could agree with most this the issue is the internet know it alls, like the Movie know it alls, Demand and want things the way THEY say it should. Because they know whats better than the companies. So when the booker or directors do it they way they feel is best for them, these loud and know it alls get mad and bad mouth the product for NOT going the way they demanded. So its evil Vince and evil TK for doing what they feel is best for the company and workers. "They dont know anything about their own business" according the internet Marks who know more then Tony and Vince, sometimes more than HHH. So they get on boardds and comments and bad mouth the business when its not the business it is the know it alls who mad NO ONE listened to them lol
I actually like that WWE have been making titles seem more meaningful lately in kayfabe. Not only the Universal title Roman holds, but the IC Title Gunther holds and even the US Title now. And if MJF gets a good long AEW world title run, then that belt continue to mean something as well. Or mean even more.
😂Yup, a few years ago Becky Lynch and Ronda Rousey had me believing their online feud was real! So much so I thought Charlotte Flair was later added to their WrestleMania match to help Becky out if Ronda tried to shoot! I felt like a clueless Mark for weeks afterward!
5:26 oh god, I hate seeing that channel
As do I, I didn't want to mention them by name but I did want to call them out at the same time
@@DaveKnowsWrestling same
Same
How DARE you break Kayfabe, sir!!!! KAYFABE!! KAYFABE!!
After seeing it on a episode list of Darkside of the Ring season 4 recently weirdly enough what probably helped boost Kayfabe a little again back then was probably WCW Bash at the Beach 2000
I love how you used pictures of Jim Cornette while you were talking about not believing everything you hear on podcasts. That dude is amazing on the mic and is so passionate about his opinions and the things he says that it makes the people who are listening to him believe what he says. His promos have always been amazing, and his podcast is just as good.
Yeah there's always gonna be things people are in the dark about and always gonna be people in the business that maintain kayfabe thankfully. Like MJF and Bray Wyatt. Abadon and Danhausen don't do too bad a job of that either. And some wrestlers will even post Twitter updates in character, so good for them. And we do deserve better journalism. One could also argue that as fans, we deserve better booking and story telling too than a lot of what we've been getting. But if it's going to keep making money, then there isn't much incentive for them to improve the product. At least not for a long established company. But one like AEW that's just starting out should want to. Just like if people are going to keep reading dirt sheets, then there's not much incentive for higher quality journalism, I guess.
Another great video, Dave.
I agree about Championship Belts. It like a video you did a few years ago that pointed out the technically Jerry Lawler held more championships than Ric Flair and everybody in the WWE.
I admit I still often get caught up in what title belts should be prestigious but that said I get caught in any story in any medium of any franchise if it’s good & I’m a fan of it. Great Video Dave!
🤘😎🤘
Jim Cornette is basically my ride or die but my point is if you don't make yourself a disciple. I don't know how you can approach this topic with any discipline.
Obviously you want to cherry pick different things from different people as human nature.
But if you don't think there are any honest people. I don't think you could rationalize anything as honest in the business.
Well I specifically said you will never know one way or the other... but at the same time, yea you shouldn't rationalize anything as being honest in the business. Afterall they are conning you from the start
Don’t be hating on the brand split. It matters more than those other arbitrary rules!
Way to prove my point for me
Not me watching this after Cody did in fact finish the story at Wrestlemania 40
Regardless, at the time, he didn't and yet ppl were still quoting it in an attempt as using it as proof that something was supposed to happen. Like the example I gave. And the fact remains that the point in the video is still accurate, that a promo is not real
GREAT STUFF DAVE
I think if the fans were plainly told its a soft split it wouldn't be much of an issues. With media it just to be better.
Then they're still marks
Yep
You mention that some podcasts might be working their listners, then put up a pic of ole Corny himself. Which begs the question do you think his podcast(s) is working us listeners?
I also said that if it's a true work you'll never know
Yes lol
Oh, Hi Dave.
What a mark
I wish that I had 3 more hands so I could give this 5 👍's UP!!!
GOOD STUFF, DAVE!!!
The internet ruined Surprises when it comes to wrestling
It wouldn't if people just stayed away from the dirt sheets
@@DaveKnowsWrestling And social media/Reddit.
You take that back Corny would never like to me 😢
Jim never stopped being the heel manager. He's playing the same character that he's always been. He does it so well that the wrestlers believe the promo's that he cuts on his podcast.
I do think as a matter of storytelling, it would be nice to take championships more seriously.
Nah, check my subs . I unsub fake news clickbaited channels as soon as I see that that's what I'm looking at
Man this video is more relevant than ever at the moment, every fan needs to understand how little they actually know!
I agree with you on everything except championships. While yes they're not actually competed for, they should always mean something otherwise there's no point in having them.
I didn't say they shouldn't mean something. This video is about things that fans believe in despite it being fiction
Great video;keep up the great work
Hey the comments are on for this. I’m almost scared to know what kind of previous comments made Dave turn them off for the last couple of videos.
It wasn't any one thing in particular. It was just the fakeness in general of people being contrarian and spreading nonsense because that's what the internet does. I didn't want to punish the intelligent people and stop them from commenting and it benefits the channel to allow comments, so instead I made it that all comments have to be approved. I may hate reading the stupid stuff, but at least I can filter it out so no one else has to read it.
All that being said though... if I did have to pinpoint it to just one comment, even though it was a whole slew, then I would have to narrow it down to a comment (I've since deleted it) where one guy says that WWE owes us because we pay their salaries
@@DaveKnowsWrestling Alright, thanks for the response.
Gotta cut the dirt sheets some slack. This is wrestling and plans change all the time especially in WWE so it's very possible they report something that was actually true at the time and then plans changed now everyone is calling them liars.
You only think wrestling changes plans all the time because the dirt shirts themselves say that they do. I don't have to cut them any slack at all because that is not how news works. And again, they blatantly told you WWE was sold to SA and that was an outright lie. But some idiot kept saying "where there's smoke" and doubled down on his falsehood. Good news would only report confirmed facts. That's standard all of us should hold all news to
The criticism of draft criticism is unfair or misleading. People aren't worked up because they don't understand the draft, or that it is all a gimmick. They are critical of how poorly is it executed. Lazy writing breaks the fictional world, and the (needless) removal of consequence robs stories of meaning. Pro wrestling has a long history of inconsistent make-it-up-as-we-go-along storytelling, but that is no reason to not be critical of such. Should people even bother to tune in to the draft, when it doesn't mean anything? And "needless" is a key word, as it isn't like it would be difficult for WWE writers to follow the rules they themselves created, or at the very least bother to write better excuses for when they want to break those rules.
Beyond this, there are the fans who legitimately believe that the brand split as a whole creates an inferior product in general, and are perhaps even more critical when the WWE doesn't even bother to follow the "rules" it created.
As stated, this comes down to what you see as the actual goal here. I said, it's goal is to pop the rating and nothing more. On the other hand, if your goal is to have coherence in a fictional world, then that's the exact kind of thing this video is talking about. Further more addressing your point, should people keep tuning in for the draft... I don't know why they do, but they mostly do just that. They shouldn't but it happens anyway.
And the brand split produces an inferior product not because of a failing to stick to the rules, it produces an inferior product because as you would word it, it's "needless." The split is completely unnecessary and inhibits options in storytelling. And strict rules will only make that worse.
Carl Sagan? The Mario Maker 2 level creator???