No, I'm neither drifter nor racer. Just came from Google search for some front wheel "drag/bump" while cornering at daily situations after heightening my car a bit and put some wheel spacers. And I really do appreciate how much home work have been made to make this video, how many hours of practicing on track was put behind all of this. And to put it simple visual, with less "dry theory" - just golden.
This is incredible, congratulations on your dedication, your videos about suspension are fantastic, the video should have many more views, thank you for your knowledge.
Great display, great explanation. I was really stuck on ackerman but you absolutely nailed explaining it. Cannot thank you guys enough for putting this together!
Another great video guys. Ackerman was the one thing I was really unsure with on my z (wisefab) bought before I knew about you guys 😔. I now have a better understanding of it so thank you and keep the awesome content coming.
When at full lock, there is an angle between the steering arm on the spindle to the axis of the tie rod on the inside wheel. (Think of a horizontal plane that contains the tie rod axis projection, the outer tie rod ball and the the point on the king pin axis where the plane intersects it.) Fundamentally, they get close to making a straight line when upwards of 90% Akerman. What angle between the tie rod axis and steering arm do you "not exceed" to prevent cam lock or snapover at full lock?
What about transition with anti ackerman, as you wouldn’t have any type of resistence made by the trailing wheel, the car will not self steer that great right?
The scrub caused by ackerman is a small % of self steer compared to caster/kpi/trail but yes, if you had pro ackerman and all other variables stayed the same.
@@FDFraceshop with anti ackerman steering has tendency to steer more deep into lock and feel really bad, well at least in europe on BMW on flat surface as we dont have ovals here.
Great visual representation and explanation! I'm trying to apply to a racing Go-Kart with no suspension and a solid rear axle. I race on road courses like Daytona, Road America, and Mid-Ohio where corner speeds are high and long straights. We have a king pin bolt, steering arms, and an attachment point to the steering shaft. We are currently using parallel steering. Since karts have no suspension, they are dependent on the unloading the inside rear tire and weight transfer to promote good cornering. For front end adjustments, we have caster, camber, and toe. We can also move ballast around for weight distribution. Would the kart benefit from Anti Akerman or Positive Akerman steering?
So when you moved the rack forward / back, is that without compensating steering arm length or with? I'm trying to get my head around if you kept the rack fixed, increased caster but adjusted steering arms to keep static toe the same (pitman arm still straight on static), would that result in a greater change to your dynamic toe / ackerman as lock increases?
Just found this, great content! My car is a bit weird, steering rack is in the back but the steering arms (mounted on the shock (mchpherson)) are pointing forward so a lot of rack offset
so.......if i have just an every day street car , with a front mounted rack , and due to the constraints of the dimensions of the front end , the tie rod arms sweep back about 2 inches from the rack body in the straight ahead position , its never going to steer well ? the set up im refering to has opposite ackerman , the outside wheel is turning in more that the inner wheel . it seems like its set up like that more to be able to have rack and pinion steering than any consideration for steering angles ?
Does Dynamic Toe affect or interfere with your Ackerman angles? for instance, by not taking dynamic toe into account, in full lock, with positive Ackerman, if the inside wheel is doing 50 degrees and outside is doing 40, would the angles change in you add dynamic toe into account? Also what is the mechanism that causes this dynamic toe phenomenon?
Regarding dynamic toe, would moving the rack further away from the ball joint essentially have the same effect (from a geometric standpoint) as using cut knuckles?
So this may be dumb but having a hard time grasping the pro vs anti.. so the lead wheel is the inner most wheel to the turn? And is pro Ackermen the inner wheel has more degrees of turning vs outer(trail). Or am I way off?….
Im confused to how on a rear rack set up how moving the rack forwards will lessen the full lock angle? I thought moving the rack closer would increase angle or require less rack moment before reaching lock to reach more/equal degrees than a rack being moved away?
In less words. Moving the rack forwards in a rear rack set up will loose lock angle? Thought it would increase angle. Unless it’s not factoring that a cut and shortened knuckle to increase angle would affect dynamic toe is a way that moving the rack forwards actually helps. In this set up it shows that at factory tie rod pick up point and moving the rack forwards only would put it at a dis advantage. So doing both is a level up. Than that would make a ton of more sense.
I’m surprised that over centering did not come up while discussing toe, tie rods and rack position. Is this something that your setup can show an example of?
Commenting as I watch for a second time. SO MUCH information packed into these. Thank you for taking the time to make them! I’m thinking about my own car as I watch. I drift a 2014 S197 mustang with stock angle. I have camber/caster plates, but that’s the only adjustment I have. Apart from poly LCA bushings that help keep the settings I set better than the weak rubber bushings did. I’ve been thinking of picking up some rack spacers from Matt Soppa to boost my angle a bit while I continue increasing driver mod before picking up a full angle kit. I’ve already deleted stock rack limiters. The spacers are 4mm thick and if I’ve got it right they basically increase the range the rack is able to go through. I’m thinking that the dynamic toe will be greatly affected because the added range is at the extremes of rack travel? He says that exaggerates the stock Ackerman because the lead wheel has more angle than the rear stock so it will have even more with the spacers. Also another question, will the spacer work with the kit you have available for my mustang? Or would I want to remove them when I purchase your kit in the future?
I noticed that you said that you're gonna explain this in relation to grip driving, but it never happens. How do these things affect grip driving in front rack or rear rack?
It very much has an effect. The cars that three wheel are already close to zero ackerman, and thats why the wheel lift does not change it much. If you’re basically talking about the RTR mustangs, then they ‘steer with the rear’ anyway.
....I KNOW THAT YOU TRIED HARD, TO EXPLAIN THIS COMPLEX GEOMETRY, BUT, I THINK THAT THE "DEMONSTRATION MECHANICAL DEVICES, FAILED TO BECOME "INTUITIVE".... ...SORRY!!!
no offense intended but not sure why you keep bringing most of the concepts explained back to pro level drifting. i feel like most people watching these arent at or near that level, right?
Well a lot of beginners probably look at those setups and say “well they’re the best obviously” and just copy it. Might work for some, but obviously not others because of how drastically different the vehicle dynamics are. I found it informative in regards to you might have heard this or that, but this is why.
Pro drifting is something everyone has seen, so I'm simply refering to there setups as an extreme scenario. The suspension principles apply to all levels of drifting with the variables being horsepower/drivetrain/tires etc. Grassroots drivers are on the same $1-2000 kits that the pros are using. Fdf raceshop for example has sold 450 kits for the 350z, and probably 20-30 of those kits are being used in pro. All the dynamics of the suspension are the same and because of the adjustment, can be used at all levels of drifting.
15:16 parallel Ackermann LOL 👍
Thank you very much for dumbing this down for us all. Great info.
No, I'm neither drifter nor racer. Just came from Google search for some front wheel "drag/bump" while cornering at daily situations after heightening my car a bit and put some wheel spacers. And I really do appreciate how much home work have been made to make this video, how many hours of practicing on track was put behind all of this. And to put it simple visual, with less "dry theory" - just golden.
Holy crap! That’s A LOT TO ABSORB!!!! Great vid!!!!!!
This is incredible, congratulations on your dedication, your videos about suspension are fantastic, the video should have many more views, thank you for your knowledge.
Great display, great explanation. I was really stuck on ackerman but you absolutely nailed explaining it. Cannot thank you guys enough for putting this together!
Awesome video guys the rig demonstration was massively helpful!!
your a walking genius ive learned so much throughout this series
Great explanation. Crazy how deep you can go talking with this
I'm in the process of doing my now thanks so much helped me loads
Such great and informational content, thank you!!
Best explanation ive heard yet. Cheers
Thanks for acknowledging front and rear rack!!! Helps
Amazing! You're killing it
Great content man I really appreciate the time and effort you've put in 🤘
Another great video guys. Ackerman was the one thing I was really unsure with on my z (wisefab) bought before I knew about you guys 😔. I now have a better understanding of it so thank you and keep the awesome content coming.
I lot of information man, we thank you for your time! Awaiting for the next episode!
really appreciate you making this video. I'm sure it was allot of work!
Bro such a great video, thanks for taking the time to make this and with such a great visual representation.
When at full lock, there is an angle between the steering arm on the spindle to the axis of the tie rod on the inside wheel. (Think of a horizontal plane that contains the tie rod axis projection, the outer tie rod ball and the the point on the king pin axis where the plane intersects it.) Fundamentally, they get close to making a straight line when upwards of 90% Akerman. What angle between the tie rod axis and steering arm do you "not exceed" to prevent cam lock or snapover at full lock?
It would be nice to see how this setups affect bump steer, thanks!
What about transition with anti ackerman, as you wouldn’t have any type of resistence made by the trailing wheel, the car will not self steer that great right?
The scrub caused by ackerman is a small % of self steer compared to caster/kpi/trail but yes, if you had pro ackerman and all other variables stayed the same.
@@FDFraceshop with anti ackerman steering has tendency to steer more deep into lock and feel really bad, well at least in europe on BMW on flat surface as we dont have ovals here.
Amazing videos keep them coming 👍🏻👍🏻
Absolutely top notch info, I appreciate the sharing of your knowledge
Great video thanks.
Excellent demo
GREAT VIDEO!! THANKS!!
Great visual representation and explanation! I'm trying to apply to a racing Go-Kart with no suspension and a solid rear axle. I race on road courses like Daytona, Road America, and Mid-Ohio where corner speeds are high and long straights.
We have a king pin bolt, steering arms, and an attachment point to the steering shaft. We are currently using parallel steering. Since karts have no suspension, they are dependent on the unloading the inside rear tire and weight transfer to promote good cornering. For front end adjustments, we have caster, camber, and toe. We can also move ballast around for weight distribution.
Would the kart benefit from Anti Akerman or Positive Akerman steering?
So when you moved the rack forward / back, is that without compensating steering arm length or with? I'm trying to get my head around if you kept the rack fixed, increased caster but adjusted steering arms to keep static toe the same (pitman arm still straight on static), would that result in a greater change to your dynamic toe / ackerman as lock increases?
Good explaination. Thanks for the effort.
thanks for video. you are better and better in explaining this stuff :)
In F1 they use anti Ackerman to scrub the trailing tire in tight corners to keep the tire temp up.
Just found this, great content! My car is a bit weird, steering rack is in the back but the steering arms (mounted on the shock (mchpherson)) are pointing forward so a lot of rack offset
Great stuff!
Do the front wheel drive cars get the same effect on ackermann?? If yes, what settings will be better pro or anti ackermann ??
so.......if i have just an every day street car , with a front mounted rack , and due to the constraints of the dimensions of the front end , the tie rod arms sweep back about 2 inches from the rack body in the straight ahead position , its never going to steer well ? the set up im refering to has opposite ackerman , the outside wheel is turning in more that the inner wheel . it seems like its set up like that more to be able to have rack and pinion steering than any consideration for steering angles ?
Rack height vs. Ride height would be a cool short vid.
Does Dynamic Toe affect or interfere with your Ackerman angles? for instance, by not taking dynamic toe into account, in full lock, with positive Ackerman, if the inside wheel is doing 50 degrees and outside is doing 40, would the angles change in you add dynamic toe into account?
Also what is the mechanism that causes this dynamic toe phenomenon?
Regarding dynamic toe, would moving the rack further away from the ball joint essentially have the same effect (from a geometric standpoint) as using cut knuckles?
So this may be dumb but having a hard time grasping the pro vs anti.. so the lead wheel is the inner most wheel to the turn? And is pro Ackermen the inner wheel has more degrees of turning vs outer(trail). Or am I way off?….
Im confused to how on a rear rack set up how moving the rack forwards will lessen the full lock angle? I thought moving the rack closer would increase angle or require less rack moment before reaching lock to reach more/equal degrees than a rack being moved away?
In less words. Moving the rack forwards in a rear rack set up will loose lock angle? Thought it would increase angle.
Unless it’s not factoring that a cut and shortened knuckle to increase angle would affect dynamic toe is a way that moving the rack forwards actually helps. In this set up it shows that at factory tie rod pick up point and moving the rack forwards only would put it at a dis advantage. So doing both is a level up. Than that would make a ton of more sense.
Thanks for great video
just thank's you
Awesome !!
Hi. From over the pond here where we turn right on ovals. So oval, tarmac. We would want a pro Ackerman set up?
I absolutely fucking love this video
Man I wish what is best for my drift mx5 nc ... not much info on those ... 😢
I’m surprised that over centering did not come up while discussing toe, tie rods and rack position. Is this something that your setup can show an example of?
Is Pro or Anti better for a street car?
Thanks bro
Does changing the rack location also change the Ackerman of the trailing wheel? (Rear rack)
Yea it changes the ackerman curve and overall ackerman at lock aswell.
@10:35 nice picture LOL
Commenting as I watch for a second time. SO MUCH information packed into these. Thank you for taking the time to make them!
I’m thinking about my own car as I watch. I drift a 2014 S197 mustang with stock angle. I have camber/caster plates, but that’s the only adjustment I have. Apart from poly LCA bushings that help keep the settings I set better than the weak rubber bushings did.
I’ve been thinking of picking up some rack spacers from Matt Soppa to boost my angle a bit while I continue increasing driver mod before picking up a full angle kit. I’ve already deleted stock rack limiters.
The spacers are 4mm thick and if I’ve got it right they basically increase the range the rack is able to go through.
I’m thinking that the dynamic toe will be greatly affected because the added range is at the extremes of rack travel? He says that exaggerates the stock Ackerman because the lead wheel has more angle than the rear stock so it will have even more with the spacers.
Also another question, will the spacer work with the kit you have available for my mustang? Or would I want to remove them when I purchase your kit in the future?
5:37 You need to go to the orthopedic surgeon. bones are shattered 🤣🤣🤣
I noticed that you said that you're gonna explain this in relation to grip driving, but it never happens. How do these things affect grip driving in front rack or rear rack?
Did you mean that the trail wheel in a drift has no effect in drifting so lifting it off the ground doesn't affect the drifting experience?
It very much has an effect. The cars that three wheel are already close to zero ackerman, and thats why the wheel lift does not change it much. If you’re basically talking about the RTR mustangs, then they ‘steer with the rear’ anyway.
I dont understand any of it. . Is that possible to install to any car?
Wow thanks 🥵🤯
No music. Urs are perfect
First!
idk if its just me but i felt this was mad confusing lol no hate man just being 100
It looks like you are creating neg caster, bad deal !!!
....I KNOW THAT YOU TRIED HARD, TO EXPLAIN THIS COMPLEX GEOMETRY, BUT, I THINK THAT THE "DEMONSTRATION MECHANICAL DEVICES, FAILED TO BECOME "INTUITIVE"....
...SORRY!!!
no offense intended but not sure why you keep bringing most of the concepts explained back to pro level drifting. i feel like most people watching these arent at or near that level, right?
Well a lot of beginners probably look at those setups and say “well they’re the best obviously” and just copy it. Might work for some, but obviously not others because of how drastically different the vehicle dynamics are. I found it informative in regards to you might have heard this or that, but this is why.
Pro drifting is something everyone has seen, so I'm simply refering to there setups as an extreme scenario. The suspension principles apply to all levels of drifting with the variables being horsepower/drivetrain/tires etc. Grassroots drivers are on the same $1-2000 kits that the pros are using. Fdf raceshop for example has sold 450 kits for the 350z, and probably 20-30 of those kits are being used in pro. All the dynamics of the suspension are the same and because of the adjustment, can be used at all levels of drifting.