Jonathan Semeyn Cheated reveller into play, it's obvious he did it knowingly, as he purposely covers up one of the cards that he discarded in hand, and freely shows off the other three cards, no idea what that red card is but might be bolt, but when his opponent questions if he had enough he moves only the top 3 as if those were the cards he discarded, it didn't matter in this particular game/match as he still loses 2-0, but it might've, the guy should definitely get a stern warning minimum, or even suspension.
Rather give him benefit of the doubt given he’s down one mana but he absolutely NEEDS to confirm with his opponent before resolving his ETB ability. Can’t use his triggered ability before casting Bedlam Reveler.
Matthew Howes I wish they would as well, however I just don't ever see it being remotely good, too much expectation from fans will always bring a guaranteed disappointment with the overall product
With all due respect, but why are Grand Prix videos have significantly less fill than pro tour videos? It just seems like the pro tours cover more and go way more in depth.
Wizard Gaming So since it's being played in legacy, the familiarity, or lack of, of the cards might suggest why there isn't as much fill/content? The commentary is solely based on what is happening on the table (for the most part)? I don't know if I make sense.
Jessie Atwood All the commentators have the ability to describe the board state, but you get that in-depth analysis from the ones that are really familiar with both decks and what they want to do, down to the specific cards they want and how they'll use them. It might also help that pros like LSV are commentating on decks that have been around a long time and only change slightly, while modern changes a bit more quickly. Also, there may just be more options in legacy because it has more powerful cards that have more interactions, but I could be wrong.
Wow, in a GP finals, that's bad. He had only 4 instant/sorceries, so the reveler was supposed to cost 2RR to cast. I don't think he miscalculated, nor didn't know he was supposed to cast it before discarding his hand.
Yes, Semeyn illegally played the Bedlam Reveler. We know that for certain. At the time of casting, there were only 4 Instants and Sorceries in his graveyard, a Chain Lightning and 3 Ponder, which reduce the cost by 4 and make the remaining cost 4, and yet Semeyn only paid 3. But whether he intentionally cheated or miscounted, there's no way to know. You can never, unless the accused confesses, be certain of ill intent...though I find it unlikely that someone could miscount their graveyard with so few cards in it. But despite my feelings, I don't think you can call the position of his hand after playing Reveler proof of anything.
What creature type did Andrew assign to his Cavern of Souls? I would guess "Human", but he uses the any color mana ability to cast flickerwisp, so i suppose he named the creature type equal to flickerwisp? Oh! Nevermind, i suppose he did that thing right...
Surely you already saw it, but for the benefit of everyone else reading: 4:47 plays Cavern naming "Elemental" 7:05 plays Flickerwisp and flickers Cavern 7:14 Cavern comes back from exile and names "Human"
Some sleeves, especially brighter colors (like yellow and red), can still be seen through slightly and parts of the delver may be apparent through the sleeve. Also, using the flip card eliminates any question of it showing through the sleeve entirely as they have the same back as any other magic card. Could have been for peace of mind, or because his choice of sleeves might still show... Alternatively, it could be personal preference because he doesn't like sleeving and unsleeving the delver over and over every time it flips. That's also a good possibility. I tend to do this when I play my Archangel Avacyn and Thing In The Ice in standard because they flip so often, but my Westvale Abbey's usually just get sleeved up with the deck because most of the time they just end up as bonus token generation or flipping them results in my opponent scooping. I haven't seen someone immediately scoop from a delver flip, but stranger things have happened.
Also, for Legacy GP, you must showcase your decklist and have your deck inspected to prevent marked cards. It happens more often than not. As a judge inspects the deck, they can see through the cards, they force him to use the flip cards and not the Delver itself.
What was cavern of souls naming in G1? Calderon first uses it to play a flickerwisp (which requires double W) and then uses it to land a Mother of runes
The second time he played Flickerwisp with it, he bounced Cavern back to his hand, played it again and (probably) named human. LSV even explained it around 10:58.
That's a good point Giuseppe, just asked Jon, he said it's been a while, but he's pretty sure the flickerwisp flickered the cavern which got reset to creature type Human.
Why do I have the feeling that each person who is demanding Jonathan be banned is also that person at the local game shop who has to rules-lawyer their way to the finals of an FNM?
Augusto Comitti the problem here is that people are making judgements about what occurred without all the evidence. Unless someone has a transcript of what was said between the players, it is all conjecture about what is going on in that moment. People are saying he tried to hide the bolt when you can also see him uncover it. Both of these things occurred and we can argue back and forth about what they mean, but it doesn't matter. Unless somebody has proof that he said the bolt was already in the grave, it's just making a bunch of assumptions to defend a notion that is already in your mind. It's up to the DCI to determine if this constitutes as cheating or just an illegal play, which would warrant a warning but not a ban.
aSirludvig classic argument. Yes, cheating does have no place in Magic but there's this concept called justice. Cheating means there was intent, which is not clear from just this video. Jon was not at his best in that final game, for example attacking with the Stormchaser Mage instead of leaving it back to block. Which means it could have just been a misplay. Most of these comments are reaching in order to "get" someone.
if I didn't get constantly rules lawyered to at FNM I wouldn't be half the player that I am today. its important to know the rules and following them isn't anti-fun, knowing the rules literally prevents anti-fun shit from happening. also this cheating was pretty blatant and unneeded seeing as how he would have gotten second anyway.
I came looking for some good Legacy "pro gameplay," and all I found was cheating, bitching in the comments section, and way too much shuffling. I've seen better games with table top Legacy decks. LSV is always great at least.
Did I say that I stay up late at night because of it? It was a simple comment, I do not care just trying to make a comment as I believe that is what the comment section is for
It's to throw off the opponents, it's part of competitive MTG and other card games, you don't wanna stare at one specific card in your hand too long nor stare at your opponents card on the field while doing so, either, unless you wanna tell them you have a way to deal with their board.
I dont think this mistake would be deserving of a match loss. If you get too punishing on mistakes, it'll make the game less enjoyable, and make competitive play more about being afraid of fucking up that it is about playing better than your opponent.
I agree that obviously not every mistake made should result in bannings but., cheating the Reveller into play was blatant. Not pointing out the spells in his bin when casting it and then quickly ditching his hand before anyone can double check, and then covering the bolt and making it look like he only discarded 3 not 4 and the bolt was already there. It was an obvious cheat. You play with him locally but when a subsantial cash prize is involved people act differently,and you prbably don't know him well enough to say absolutley it was a mistake..
You can see how nervous he is by the time he wins the semifinals. After all, who wouldn't get? I really do think a mistake like this is deserving of a match loss, considering the lack of transparency this play was made with. But this wasn't a mistake. It's pretty clear that it was intentional, considering all FACTS TheRedkeyboard just said.
You don't get to the Finals of a Grand Prix without knowing how your cards work - especially one that intrinsically requires counting in a championship game. He cheated. Get over it.
I think there were some things at the points he won a Block-Pro Tour and got into the Worldchampionchip, however if i remember correctly, they were either playing not clearly or simple mistakes. (might have been extra land dropps in complicated turn and there was one time where he put a creature in his hand with Theros Ajani without showing it to the opponent, was ruled as if he tryed to cheat but in reality it actually was a creature and he just made a mistake of not showing it, instantly showing it even before shuffling his hand as his opponent pointed that out.) In general, i fin it frustrating, players are accused of cheating because they make mistakes which lead to their advantage in a high pressure situation after sometimes hours of play. The problem is just that intent in such a situation is not clear, as such if you assume no bad intent, people can abuse the system, but if you assume bad intent, you brand people as cheaters because they are humen and not perfect beings.
I remember watching stream and he played 2 lands in one turn, if he didn't do that he would lose. If he does something like this on freakin stream what he does off stream?
Ehmm, he is human and did not play them directly after another as faar as i remember? If you have a complicated turn, you do sometimes end up doing something like that, because you forgot, that you played a land already.
Maybe, but the way he did that, seems veeeeery unlikely that he wasn't aware of that. He was pretty nervous, because that was a really bad play to do IMO. Then he realized he screwed up by playing the scry land before read the bones and just quickly threw the 6th untapped land to play elspeth.
squirrelly77 if youre talking about how he used cavern for flickerwisp and then mother of runes later in the game it was because the flickerwisp flickered the cavern and upon entering the second time he got to rename it to human from elemental
Jonathan Semeyn Cheated reveller into play, it's obvious he did it knowingly, as he purposely covers up one of the cards that he discarded in hand, and freely shows off the other three cards, no idea what that red card is but might be bolt, but when his opponent questions if he had enough he moves only the top 3 as if those were the cards he discarded, it didn't matter in this particular game/match as he still loses 2-0, but it might've, the guy should definitely get a stern warning minimum, or even suspension.
Rather give him benefit of the doubt given he’s down one mana but he absolutely NEEDS to confirm with his opponent before resolving his ETB ability. Can’t use his triggered ability before casting Bedlam Reveler.
Love hearing lsv and Chapin together. Great magic minds. Congrats to the d and t player.
3 ponder, 1 chainlightning in gy and with 3 mana, bedlam is uncastable. #cheater
How did the judges not catch that?
Dylan. They never catch anything
1st round is so hard to watch. 12 or 15 points of burn and just holding it while his land gets locked out.
I wish they'd make a movie series! eg lord of the rings, harry potter... etc.
Like that mediocre pile of a WoW-movie? Or that Assassins Creed dump? Cause that is more likely.
Matthew Howes I wish they would as well, however I just don't ever see it being remotely good, too much expectation from fans will always bring a guaranteed disappointment with the overall product
I love magic the Gathering and this was just amazing no spectacular
With all due respect, but why are Grand Prix videos have significantly less fill than pro tour videos? It just seems like the pro tours cover more and go way more in depth.
Jessie Atwood it depends on the commentators and how in touch they are with the decks and all the possible outcomes.
Wizard Gaming So since it's being played in legacy, the familiarity, or lack of, of the cards might suggest why there isn't as much fill/content? The commentary is solely based on what is happening on the table (for the most part)? I don't know if I make sense.
Wizard Gaming I know how rude I'm sounding but I'm sincerely asking.
Jessie Atwood All the commentators have the ability to describe the board state, but you get that in-depth analysis from the ones that are really familiar with both decks and what they want to do, down to the specific cards they want and how they'll use them. It might also help that pros like LSV are commentating on decks that have been around a long time and only change slightly, while modern changes a bit more quickly. Also, there may just be more options in legacy because it has more powerful cards that have more interactions, but I could be wrong.
he cheated the bedlam reveler in play
When?
at 23:33 lsv saw it too
a little bit after that they confirmed that there were enough spells in the gy
Wow, in a GP finals, that's bad. He had only 4 instant/sorceries, so the reveler was supposed to cost 2RR to cast.
I don't think he miscalculated, nor didn't know he was supposed to cast it before discarding his hand.
23:30
Jonathan cheats multiple times..for shame.
Game 1, ur player needed to bolt head more, and pop for 6 point when he had the chance. It's called tempo, not reaction.
Yes, Semeyn illegally played the Bedlam Reveler. We know that for certain.
At the time of casting, there were only 4 Instants and Sorceries in his graveyard, a Chain Lightning and 3 Ponder, which reduce the cost by 4 and make the remaining cost 4, and yet Semeyn only paid 3.
But whether he intentionally cheated or miscounted, there's no way to know. You can never, unless the accused confesses, be certain of ill intent...though I find it unlikely that someone could miscount their graveyard with so few cards in it. But despite my feelings, I don't think you can call the position of his hand after playing Reveler proof of anything.
What creature type did Andrew assign to his Cavern of Souls? I would guess "Human", but he uses the any color mana ability to cast flickerwisp, so i suppose he named the creature type equal to flickerwisp?
Oh! Nevermind, i suppose he did that thing right...
Surely you already saw it, but for the benefit of everyone else reading:
4:47 plays Cavern naming "Elemental"
7:05 plays Flickerwisp and flickers Cavern
7:14 Cavern comes back from exile and names "Human"
Why is Jonathan using the flip card token for Delver even when he's using Sleeves? This isn't the first time I've seen this
Some sleeves, especially brighter colors (like yellow and red), can still be seen through slightly and parts of the delver may be apparent through the sleeve. Also, using the flip card eliminates any question of it showing through the sleeve entirely as they have the same back as any other magic card. Could have been for peace of mind, or because his choice of sleeves might still show... Alternatively, it could be personal preference because he doesn't like sleeving and unsleeving the delver over and over every time it flips. That's also a good possibility. I tend to do this when I play my Archangel Avacyn and Thing In The Ice in standard because they flip so often, but my Westvale Abbey's usually just get sleeved up with the deck because most of the time they just end up as bonus token generation or flipping them results in my opponent scooping. I haven't seen someone immediately scoop from a delver flip, but stranger things have happened.
Also, for Legacy GP, you must showcase your decklist and have your deck inspected to prevent marked cards. It happens more often than not. As a judge inspects the deck, they can see through the cards, they force him to use the flip cards and not the Delver itself.
Just asked Jon, he says his sleeves were see through, great question!
Bertoncini in the making
What was cavern of souls naming in G1? Calderon first uses it to play a flickerwisp (which requires double W) and then uses it to land a Mother of runes
The second time he played Flickerwisp with it, he bounced Cavern back to his hand, played it again and (probably) named human. LSV even explained it around 10:58.
That's a good point Giuseppe, just asked Jon, he said it's been a while, but he's pretty sure the flickerwisp flickered the cavern which got reset to creature type Human.
why are they shuffling all the time?!
#this
Why do I have the feeling that each person who is demanding Jonathan be banned is also that person at the local game shop who has to rules-lawyer their way to the finals of an FNM?
I really have no idea why you would try to focus on who talks about the problem rather than the problem, which is a tremendously serious one.
Augusto Comitti the problem here is that people are making judgements about what occurred without all the evidence. Unless someone has a transcript of what was said between the players, it is all conjecture about what is going on in that moment. People are saying he tried to hide the bolt when you can also see him uncover it. Both of these things occurred and we can argue back and forth about what they mean, but it doesn't matter. Unless somebody has proof that he said the bolt was already in the grave, it's just making a bunch of assumptions to defend a notion that is already in your mind. It's up to the DCI to determine if this constitutes as cheating or just an illegal play, which would warrant a warning but not a ban.
aSirludvig classic argument. Yes, cheating does have no place in Magic but there's this concept called justice. Cheating means there was intent, which is not clear from just this video. Jon was not at his best in that final game, for example attacking with the Stormchaser Mage instead of leaving it back to block. Which means it could have just been a misplay. Most of these comments are reaching in order to "get" someone.
if I didn't get constantly rules lawyered to at FNM I wouldn't be half the player that I am today. its important to know the rules and following them isn't anti-fun, knowing the rules literally prevents anti-fun shit from happening. also this cheating was pretty blatant and unneeded seeing as how he would have gotten second anyway.
I find it funny that you have an issue with people who play by the rules and know how interactions work...
I came looking for some good Legacy "pro gameplay," and all I found was cheating, bitching in the comments section, and way too much shuffling. I've seen better games with table top Legacy decks. LSV is always great at least.
why un-sideboard after winning a gp lol
Hmmmm, just asked Jon, he said he didn't win so he doesn't know
The hand shuffling of players like Andrew is the worst thing in all of Magic
Lol character flaw? You guys get bothered way to easily and take shuffling your hand way to serious. Who gives a shit?
Did I say that I stay up late at night because of it? It was a simple comment, I do not care just trying to make a comment as I believe that is what the comment section is for
lmao
i totally agree.
It's to throw off the opponents, it's part of competitive MTG and other card games, you don't wanna stare at one specific card in your hand too long nor stare at your opponents card on the field while doing so, either, unless you wanna tell them you have a way to deal with their board.
Just gonna say to all the cheater comments... I play with this guy locally. He's not a cheater, he just made a mistake.
Ok so in your opinion every single person who ever makes a mistake at a GP should be banned? Guess I should be banned
yes -- every person who ever makes a mistake at a GP deserves a game or match loss
I dont think this mistake would be deserving of a match loss. If you get too punishing on mistakes, it'll make the game less enjoyable, and make competitive play more about being afraid of fucking up that it is about playing better than your opponent.
I agree that obviously not every mistake made should result in bannings but., cheating the Reveller into play was blatant.
Not pointing out the spells in his bin when casting it and then quickly ditching his hand before anyone can double check, and then covering the bolt and making it look like he only discarded 3 not 4 and the bolt was already there. It was an obvious cheat.
You play with him locally but when a subsantial cash prize is involved people act differently,and you prbably don't know him well enough to say absolutley it was a mistake..
You can see how nervous he is by the time he wins the semifinals. After all, who wouldn't get?
I really do think a mistake like this is deserving of a match loss, considering the lack of transparency this play was made with. But this wasn't a mistake. It's pretty clear that it was intentional, considering all FACTS TheRedkeyboard just said.
7:25 Jonathan uses blue manna to cast a lightning bolt
uh no he didn't
Sorry Paco, just asked Jon and he said his Innistrad checklist card was in fact for Delver of Secrets, not Lightning Bolt
Lol 2nd comment like if you are a mtg planeswalker
King Masono Im a human
Kyle Kliestik understandable have a nice day...
King Masono Lol.. ok?
I doubt he cheated. People make mistakes. Get over it.
You don't get to the Finals of a Grand Prix without knowing how your cards work - especially one that intrinsically requires counting in a championship game. He cheated. Get over it.
Famous cheater Patrick Chapin! Why is he even allowed to comment a magic match?
Tymski
On what occasions has he cheated?
I think there were some things at the points he won a Block-Pro Tour and got into the Worldchampionchip, however if i remember correctly, they were either playing not clearly or simple mistakes. (might have been extra land dropps in complicated turn and there was one time where he put a creature in his hand with Theros Ajani without showing it to the opponent, was ruled as if he tryed to cheat but in reality it actually was a creature and he just made a mistake of not showing it, instantly showing it even before shuffling his hand as his opponent pointed that out.)
In general, i fin it frustrating, players are accused of cheating because they make mistakes which lead to their advantage in a high pressure situation after sometimes hours of play. The problem is just that intent in such a situation is not clear, as such if you assume no bad intent, people can abuse the system, but if you assume bad intent, you brand people as cheaters because they are humen and not perfect beings.
I remember watching stream and he played 2 lands in one turn, if he didn't do that he would lose. If he does something like this on freakin stream what he does off stream?
Ehmm, he is human and did not play them directly after another as faar as i remember? If you have a complicated turn, you do sometimes end up doing something like that, because you forgot, that you played a land already.
Maybe, but the way he did that, seems veeeeery unlikely that he wasn't aware of that. He was pretty nervous, because that was a really bad play to do IMO. Then he realized he screwed up by playing the scry land before read the bones and just quickly threw the 6th untapped land to play elspeth.
I love how no one is commenting on Andrew cheating with cavern in game one...
squirrelly77 if youre talking about how he used cavern for flickerwisp and then mother of runes later in the game it was because the flickerwisp flickered the cavern and upon entering the second time he got to rename it to human from elemental
Matthew "Sulu51" Siu OK. I didn't see that. Thanks for clarification.