The main character witnesses one of her companions say her father died, says "I don't care if this world burns" to her face, then later tries to one up a dead father with her own tragic backstory.
The game is the definition of "too much" She's an orphan. She's on the verge of going to jail. She's on the run from a gang. She's homeless. The place she's squatting in burns down. She loses all money she had in the fire. She has to give her cat away. It's christmas. It's also her birthday. This is all before she even gets to the fantasy world. Edit: Oh yeah, she's also dragged before a medieval court to decide if she's a witch or demon or whatever. Probly killed instantly if they don't like her answers, and she says don't sweat it, cause she's been in rougher situations before. Like being in court for stealing a car.
@Poeboi33 Its too much cause they added on way too many things to try and make you feel bad for her. It's like Robocop's violence. It's so much to the point It's ridiculous, only with this, it's not intentionally ridiculous
@@Eidlones I think the problem is we don't even consider these as 'realities.' I remember at work an ex-new hire told us on his second day in the most stereotypical Jersian accent over how he made his wife cry and got kicked out of the house for sleeping around so he bummed out at his friends crackden where he almost got stabbed on the street outside... we were all looking at him wondering why the hell he would tell us this in work. People live full, deranged, and often times reality show lives that other people don't ever experience. I don't know why the devs/studio thought to target that kind of demographics life with a $70-80 game, though.
It has been said before already but i need to add that.: When the house is on fire, the bag of money is at her feet and you cnat grab it because you need to grab the cat in teh other room first, and when you turn around, its now impossible to get teh cash. So not only they add "too much" but they force it on you.
The ending is the best tho. You know what, if life sucks, leave it, stay in fantasy world, that cat as orphan as you? leave it, he could probably find its fantasy world and mother maybe, This is my new low in writing. Its not even funny.
@@doclouis4236 Back in the 90s, media focused towards a younger audience had this phase where everything had to be XTREME! Lots of slang peppered in for its own sake, skateboards and other "XTREME" sports being thrown in because that's what the kids are into, a general rebellious spirit to appeal to the at-the-time punk and grunge rock that was semi-mainstream. The trend for media nowadays to hamfistedly throw those "winking at the camera" comments that are endemic to stuff like Marvel movies has a great deal of the same energy: stuffy suit and tie types trying to appear hip and cool for the Tiktok kiddies.
Oh wait, *THAT* was Forspoken? Now I know why I feel like I have no idea what people have been talking about for the past week. I just put up a barrier between my mind and that trailer until right now.
I think the thing is actually this: When this dialogue happens in games instead of movies. In games, since they are a more individual and personal experience, since we are the ones playing it, it is us who should go a bit like "wow, that was awesome, I did that", "that is so stupid, I love it" and not the character. When it's the characters it feels like the game is making fun of us for enjoying it, point out that we are cringe in our childish enjoyment of flashing colours, bright lights and fantasy.
It's like a character saying how scared they are vs the zombies in RE1 Remake breaking through the window scarring me for life as Jill doesn't react at all.
I think the actual real problem with this game is just the presentation. Look up a video of cutscenes from Jak & Daxter. Just watch the first scene after Daxter becomes an Ottsel and they visit Samos. See all the expressions and camera cuts and zoom ins and emotion in the voice lines? Now watch one of the scenes from Forspoken and how... dull and lifeless they are. The camera just does these slow rotating shots and the character models are so stiff that you barely see any emotion from them. There's no music either to heighten the scenes or play up the goofiness and one of the major characters is a ring band so you get nothing from him other than his voice.
@@SpecterVonBaren Yeah, one of the little things that Toby Fox did in Deltarune was to put characters’ heads in the dialogue boxes whenever they were reacting to something in a conversation and that always struck me as a clever use of the medium - but he was around for enough of Homestuck to get exposed to what happens if you go TOO meta and lampshadey with things.
The games I can think of that have "You can turn down the amount of dialogue the main character keeps blabing about" as a positive feature are: Forspoken, Bubsy and YIIK
That depressing intro is ruined by the fact she wants to leave New York and has this money saved up. She wakes up realizing her apartment is on fire and goes to save her cat while NOT being allowed to pick up her money bag that was right next to her when she woke up!
So the writers would make for terrible RPG GMs Seems like easy fix would be that shit burns down when she is out and comes back to a burning appartment.
"Who needs suicide? I have magical powers!" is a hell of a line. Though from experience, I think that even at my lowest point, finding out I had magic powers would totally give me a new lease on life.
Kid Icarus Uprising continues to be my gold standard for characters quipping Whedon or any self-aware writing style. Mainly because not everyone does it The ones that do know when to stop. The quips are tailored to the character so you can tell just by the text alone who's talking. And it's clearly the characters talking to each other about stuff in-universe. One chapter in KIU has Pit by himself with no one to banter with so he banter's with himself. He even starts doing impressions of other people to make it more plausible. He admits he's going insane by the end. It's goddamn hilarious.
The characters in Kid Icarus are so likable and funny that I sat through a whole montage of them talking about Smash characters. After playing the Forspoken demo … I do not feel the same about Frey and Cuff
@Riku86 Sorry you used the example that I find more annoying than all the quips in the MCU combined. Even just hearing the Kid Icarus gang talk in Smash made me never want to touch Uprising.
I can't in good conscience call KI:U's writing style Wheadonism because there isn't really this sense of cynicism characteristic to his writing style. The cast knows they're in a video game and that they do some goofy stuff and they fully embrace it. They so casually talk about what happened in the previous games (emphasis on *games)* and the weird rules of the current one that you start to wonder if there ever was a fourth wall in the first place. Plus they're not scared to commit to the bit. Pit pretty much always loses it when hot springs show up and the writers always find a creative way to repurpose the gag and it's great. The point about characterising the gags also rings true. No one is trying to sound like what these people think teenagers sound like. Everyone has a very clear comedic role and they all mesh together to form fun and unique dynamics. Tl:dr Uprising is just really clever and deserves more props.
Hearing people complain about Bubsy's dialogue in 'The Woolies Strike Back' kinda gets super annoying since I keep remembering that slider. Why the hell did you keep it on? Do you not remember you can turn that shit off any time you like? Why are you raw-dogging it if you KNOW you can't take it!?
After thinking on it and seeing multiple back to back clips of Forspoken and Hi Fi Rush, I think I finally realize what's really wrong with Forspoken's dialogue. It's not that people just hate quirky quipping teenagers, it's that whoever wrote Forspoken's dialogue writes as though they were _ashamed_ that they were writing a fantasy story. There are writers who committed to making a fantasy world with history and lore and culture (that you can only glean from optional lore books), but Frey doesn't want to engage with *any* of it. She dismisses everything outright and keeps hiding behind snark and sarcasm to put barriers of separation between herself and all the stuff that's clearly outside her realm of belief. And if Frey isn't engaging with any of the fiction or the narrative, then neither is the player.
I think the simpler answer is that she just isn’t funny. If you play something like Ultimate Spider-Man, Peter Parker is antagonistically riffing on everything, making fun of his villains, himself, and the general situation. Insincerity about his life as a superhero is a core part of his character … they are just better jokes
Thank you. I'm tired of people who think that you have to _Critique_ everything you engage with. And quip and snark and generally disengage with the world at large. Why do I want to play a game that doesnt want me to engage and be interested in it. How can the player be interested in something If the main characters, their POV, dont. It makes you feel like you are wasting your time. And a player will not waste there time on a game that doesn't value their time.
That's the problem if they had o' girl that wrote Legacy of Kain as a lead writer it'll be completely different. Yet the writers we got really do feel ashamed they're writing what they're writing. Not all genres need a deconstruction by western writers yet they seem to do it by habit at this point which is why people are tired. Yes people aren't tired of those types people overall. It's that people are tired of the main characters not caring about the world their in. For some people they REALLY love these characters. Yet that's only because the MCU made all their characters basically Spider-Man
It's just so absurd that she's like, 'One day, kitty, we'll move someplace with clean air and blue skies.' And then she literally moves there, and the cat can't come with, and she hates it. It's _more absurd_ that her only 'friend' watches her dad die, and Frey responds by playing victim Olympics and saying, 'I don't care, nobody cared about me when I was an orphan, I won't help you and I hope your whole world burns,' _to the girl's face._ They tried to do some sort of 'her heart is hardened by a tough life,' but they only know how to show that with the most extreme acts of hostility _out of nowhere._ And they don't know how to slow-burn that into a redemption arc.
It's a very realistic depiction of a modern day neurologic young adult. It just also means she has zero charm and affords herself zero sympathies from the audience.
I like how Woolie's so burned by the internet yelling at him that, as he says he's going to double check something he's already calling out people for trying to take his words out of context. All in the span of a minute.
I mean, he's done it to himself. They're so used to just saying stuff without making sure it's correct information and then getting mad at chat for correcting them.
@@alexanderson4497 And I mean tbh you can do that and just have fun with it, but not if you're concerned about being correct as Woolie tends to be lol.
The funny thing about it is whoever thinks it's a suicide scene is already watching with the sound off. She considers it for 2 seconds at most before the fantasy shit starts.
What Woolie said is perfectly spot on, that childlike sense of wonder is the soul of fantasy stories imo, and what a lot of movies and games don't understand is that you have to give the characters themselves the opportunity to feel that wonder, to feel awed (or scared or whatever) by the world around them, otherwise no matter how much amazing things you put into that world the player/viewer isn't gonna feel anything. If, as this game seems to do, you only write cynical characters that can't seem to really believe in what they are seeing and react to everything with self-aware quips, as if they know they are in a story, how do you expect the player to suspend disbelief and feel amazed when the characters themselves don't? It's not only lazy, but cynical: i put dragons in here but i don't care about dragons, i'm above that, i just did it because it's fantasy and there MUST be dragons, right?
That's a good point. I just finished playing God of War 2018 for the first time, and I realized that having Atreus around for the whole game is such a smart narrative choice because he allows the player to see the wonder and magic in the world through his curious eyes, in contrast with Kratos who is jaded and distrustful of the world.
The dialogue in Forspoken isn't self-aware quips. It's banter between Frey and the cuff (vambrace) on her arm. Forspoken has problems but, the dialogue isn't really one of the problems, the attitude that they give Frey is a problem though, that is until you get to the final act of the game.
- Unanounced game gets a trailer and drops out of nowhere. - Gets universal praise and can be a GOTY contender. - Refuses to elaborate. Is Hi-Fi the equivalent to the Giga-chad meme?
@@leithaziz2716 Yes it is. I have a nagging suspicion that the publishers had no faith in it due to being rather weird and "out there" (as in not a bland generic open world thing) and assumed it would flop, so they just let it plop out without any real marketing and it's making waves in spite of them. I don't actually know the backstory of that game's development but I have a strong hunch that it's success and popularity is actually a surprise to the suits in the board room.
@@MattManDX1 Nah there's no way they didn't expect it to be successful. The level of success might be a surprise but Hi-Fi Rush has a lot of pedigree and polish behind it. It's not a random indie drop. It's a game that they highlighted in their showcases and had enough confidence to drop because they knew they had something good that would turn heads. The people that made and released this game know what they're doing.
I found it weird that they had Frey not just suicidal but also literally starting the game in a court hearing about her third pending felony, and than be in trouble with this weird mob girl outfit who put a gun to her face for not pronouncing their boss's name correctly. Like why couldn't she be someone who's a three-job working wage slave needing to take of a younger brother because dead parents while trying to get into college, make her have a reason why she doesn't want to be in the isekai rather than just go 'This is dumb yo'.
Plot device. Also Frey being "suicidal" isn't even a thing in the beginning. She's more depressed and has plans to escape to a better life away from New York. Her motivations for breaking the law are to make money to get away and start a better life, which she clearly shows in her apartment with a duffel bag full of money and a literal drawing. Suicidal people don't think like that. If you actually played the game, you would know that.
In alot of Isekai anime, youll seer the character go "man, theres really nothing waiting for me at home" and thats why theyre not in a rush to get back, but with her backstory, it seems more like she should be going, "oh thank god, i dont have deal with all that bullshit," so that added to the offness to the dialogue, like the devs didn't know how to write a human being in that position, so they just went "make them snarky and never take anything seriously, itll show theyre strong or something! and the playerbase will love it! what, the story doesnt fit it? i dont care, just push it out."
@@AKPC001 That's because it was western writers writing a story that overall only really works when you go hard into the fantasy element of it. Since Peter Pan and Alice in Wonderland overall count as "isakai". Isakai do not dwell on the "IRL" aspect too tough. That's why Frey's on NY section was so off
The real reason is because she's black. No, that's not my opinion, that's the writers. They decided since she was a black protagonist, she had to be a criminal and involved with gang violence. Because the idea of a black protagonist *not* being a criminal is unthinkable to those racist whriters.
I call it Twitter writing. Writers have started writing dialog like it’s Twitter. Presumably because they spend so much time on Twitter they think people talk like that.
I haven't played the game myself BUT I have watched a good chunk of other people play it just for the purpose of seeing if the story is good or not and my BIGGEST problem with it is inconsistency of the main characters and motivation whiplash -The MC is introduced as a homeless felon down on her luck, having to do community service and in trouble with a local gang, she has a big emotional moment/speech about wanting a fresh start off in a far away land and to be needed by someone. SHE LITTERALLY GETS THAT and doesn't stop talking about wanting to get back to new york. The only thing she would want to go back for is her cat but she gave it away shortly before being isekai'd. why is this new setting not good enough for her when she wanted a fresh start and has nothing to return to -There's a point where MC has a trauma-off with a female NPC who just lost basically everything (which is a problem of its own) and how she doesn't care what happens to the fantasy world and everyone can die for all she cares, she just wants to go home. but then when she has her powers taken away LATER in the game she gives a big speech about how she thought she was the hero this world needed, but every time she tries to do the right thing the rug gets pulled from under her. does she want to fight for this world or not, writers need to make up there mind cause it definitely wasn't an arc -shortly after the trauma-off where she tells NPC that she doesn't care about her realm and its people, she then talks with another NPC who asks for help and MC says that she's tired of fighting for a world that doesn't want her help. THESE PEOPLE HAVE LITTERALLY BEEN BEGGING FOR YOUR HELP, THE PERSON TALKING TO YOU IS ASKING FOR HELP. -minor gripe but she tells her cuff to shut up so she can blend into a crowd when she's the only one who can hear him not a lot of points for the story but they're pretty big for investment in character and they're stretched over an entire game where she doesn't go on any sort of character arc/journey and is just a static smug/snark/self-centered quip hero who belittles the first person and ""source"" of her powers in a new world. she constantly jumps back and forth on being ok with and an ass to the cuff for no reason that I can see other than the writers knew he was going to be the big bad can't speak on graphics and gameplay cause I could care less about the graphics and haven't played the game and regardless of what you feel about the dialogue clips going around, the MC is hard to root far with how inconsistent she is.
One show I can think of that side-stepped the Lamp-shading issue in super-hero shows is Batman: The Brave and The Bold. With that show, it's less about mocking the bizzare aspects of comic books for the sake of a cheap laugh at the cost of sucking tension, but moreso an acknowledging and celebrating the Silver (or Golden?) age of DC comics, which was known to be hammy and cheesy. The show's a lot of fun.
Frey being at the lowest of lows in her life when she gets isekai'd just makes her attitude through the rest of the game make absolutely no sense. She's constantly bitching about wanting to go back to her shitty, shitty life and I have no idea why. It's not even like her life on Earth was *safe* - her being threatened with a gun and then running for her life from some gang is like the first gameplay we see.
If she didn't get Isakai she would have died within days. You had a gun in your face, you screwed over some mob boss, they burned your squat down and done so much stupid shit you should have been in prison... Fighting zombies with magic > Typical NYC crime victim. Which is better?
honestly I think the "I just moved shit with my mind" cutscene would be dramatically improved if the cinematography was better, like if the camera was jumping around a bit to match her excitement. But it just does this slow pan around her while she's freaking out and it feels so limp
When the girl that was wisked away to a misterious new world and almost killed by several monsters and wild animals see a giant fuck all dragon she lets out , not fear , not panic , but mild annoyance , and thats the perfect summary
Whedon generally always had a good grasp of the balance between quips and grounded storytelling - the vast majority of his dialogue felt like it was originating primarily from the characters and the situation they were in, as opposed to just interchangeable one-liners. The problem was mainly the glut of less-skilled writers that wanted to ape his style without understanding the substance that propped it up.
Age of Ultron shows his weaknesses tho, Ultron is Adam from Buffy and just as shitty. Avengers 2012 I think is the best from him and that is way less quipy than others. Whedon isn’t a genius thespian, other writers in the Buffyverse were better than him.
@@li-limandragon9287 For sure, he's not perfect and Buffy had some absolute rubbish mixed in with the gold (Riley and Adam are fucking embarrassing). I'm just saying the currently fashionable complaint about Whedonisms is a bit misleading.
Whedon can also mess up the quip ratio, and I think there are just some actors who cannot make his dialogue sound natural. But there are also writers who just don’t have the specific sense of humor need to write this kind of dialogue well and are just sticking in “Well, that happened” humor, rather than anything clever enough to enhance the scene
@@Zangelin it had its moments. But i get the impression of a lot of people not remembering how it actually was. Like if we rewatched it. It would have cringe
I watched Tim Rogers play the first three hours of this game on stream and I noticed two thing when it came to the dialogue 1) it's not that the dialogue is necessarily bad (which it is), it's that the characters are constantly yammering on about some uninteresting/badly written lore or just being generally smarmy with very little down time to just let the player breathe and soak in the environments, it's always gotta be interrupted by *something* 2) the quips/jokes/whatever aren't even funny or witty or well written to begin with.
the game also ends in like a solid 2 hours worth of cutscenes and dialogue explaining lore that the game was too lazy to explain up to that point so you go from the characters spewing inconsequential lore at random, to the game forcing you for a couple of hours to listen to bullshit
@@RadonX9 also the first major bossfight is against a sorceress who also has the cuff and is evil because of it oh man I wonder if the cuff is actually the bad guy and if it's gonna take until the last 5% of the pre-final-boss playtime for the game to go "ha ha, didn't see that coming, did ya"
Black Panther became one of my favorite MCU characters because in addition to how good everything else is, T'Challa never quipped once. Not a single time. And it made him stand out.
So without spoilers this game has a really weird writing whiplash near the end. Basically, your character goes "I feel X" in an emotional scene, you progress a tiny bit with the plot, and then she goes "I feel absolutely Y" and trust me Y is the polar opposite of X. It feels like they cut a scene or two near the end of the game and it gets disjointed.
@@TheSergio1021 If I remember right she goes: "I don't give a fuck about this fantasy world I want to go home to New York!" and then if you do the 'good' ending she goes: "I love this world and all the people here and I'm going to stay here and defend this world I love." There's no scenes of her wanting to stay at all, she's very pissy and wants to leave ASAP for pretty much everything and if you make that one choice she suddenly wants to stay and help people.
Let it sink that this game had 5 writers, which includes the lead writer of Telltale’s Walking Dead S1 and the creator of both Soul Reaver and Uncharted
7:10 I think the reason people are confused at you/saying you are wrong for saying she attempts suicide in the beginning is because they make it rather subtle that she was considering suicide, to the point that it's almost completely glossed over. To reiterate for clarity: she doesn't _attempt_ suicide, she merely considers it for a moment. I had to go look up the scene again because I didn't even notice anything to do with her being suicidal, I thought she was just brooding in a high place that made her feel comfortable and figuring out what she was going to do with her life. Though to be fair I wasn't focused on the scene because I saw it in a review video with someone else talking during it. Literally the only allusion to it is that she says "No, I'm better than that" while the camera is so far away we can't really see how she's feeling. Presumably to give the sense of her being and/or feeling small in the world, but the drawback of that cinematic approach is that the audience (or at least I) don't connect with the character in that moment and don't have a clear view of what else she might be feeling, although maybe that too was the point.
Getting to this video late, but something that just FINALLY hit me (yes I'm a slow asshole, I can't help it) is comparing the attempted execution of Frey's character as "A felon who is actually a good person thrust into a world where their history won't matter" to a game that already has done it: Telltale's The Walking Dead game. The problem with Frey's character is that she's a repeat offender constantly committing crimes, dismissing the multiple chances she's being given, and even when she gets transported to a new world with a clean slate, she still acts like an asshole. The game can't decide whether she's supposed to be a "rough but with a heart of gold" or "completely cynical asshole". Lee was a CONVICTED MURDERER, but still an incredibly empathetic man; his crime was ten times worse than what Frey had done, but it was committed in a fit of emotion and throughout the game, he doesn't squander the trust that other people show him when no one knows about his crime; You can even choose to tell other people if you've saved Carly in your run, and when Lilly tries to leak his secret, Kenny immediately has his back because of how much Lee has looked out for everyone else. And at the end of the game where he's at the brink of death, Clementine first mourns her parents and Lee's response is completely sympathetic: Clementine: "My parents... It's so horrible!" Lee: "I can't imagine, sweetpea." And remember, Lee DID also lose his parents, he saw their blood-stained office and was told their bodies were dragged out and abandoned in the alleyway. But all he cares about is Clementine's pain. It baffles me that there are people that try to defend this piece of shit character when Lee exists and is considered a legendary MC of the 2010's video game era.
Exactly. If Forspoken's intro wasn't written by an AI, it might as well be. Frey is a character that clearly written by a committee who went way overboard in trying to make her cool, relatable, and tragic, all at once without any coherent personality to make it all work. We're explicitly told she's a grade A student and apparently enjoys reading classic novels like Alice in Wonderland, but she's also an abrasive and snarky street urchin. She's homeless and squats in an empty apartment, but is also perfectly well-kept and keeps a collection of designer sneakers. She'll return a lost phone or wallet to a passerby, but is a convicted felon possessing a stolen a dufflebag's worth of cash (despite being caught for her crimes). She hates New York and wants to leave, but she's insistent on returning despite having magical powers in a fantasy world Like you said, the game can't decide what kind of character Frey is supposed to be. She's like the self-insert protagonist of a YA novel, marketed to the wrong crowd.
@@quaglegagle674 Its basically a good balance of showing that Chai is a good fighter/"Rockstar" but hes a complete doofus at everything else. That sort of thing is really hard to pull off right.
@@jtlego1 It also doesn't help that isekais tend to prop up the fish out of water character as someone destined for some greater purpose. Although I wonder if Forspoken would be better perceived if it were going for a more cartoony style like Hi Fi instead of the classic fantasy genre
It feels like what they do with Frey could be good if it were in service to a character arc. She refuses to be sincere and accept her isekai story because she thinks she might be in a simulation or insane and wants to be above it. But that's all about execution. Could also help if her talking magic cuff sidekick were more of a straight man instead of just another soulless quip-making engine.
Forspoken makes me think of Kai Leng from Mass Effect 3, every time he came on screen the vibes would literally just die and I would stop having fun. Nearly every time Forspoken lady quips it has the same effect, she kills the vibes in the scene and breaks my concentration and immersion, it gets better eventually but it really just feels like she should've just been a normal person in this world instead of a shitty marvel superhero in an isekai. The game running like shit did not help.
Yes, Pat. It REALLY feels like they wanted to do FF15 again. There are even quests that I felt "Wow, this is just like that sneaking quest in FF" In other parts it's like FF but westernized, but still Japanese on the logic which makes things weird. Like how everyone comments she has strange clothes, then she just walks around with the strange clothes partially showing, and she doesn't really even hide her face or her very obviously white shoes that are a dead giveaway for the location.
It's because "forspoken" as an ideal came before FF15 and was supposed to be closer in fanasty tone from the Agni and Witch trailers. Then some suited Bozo came walking down and shit all over it after FF15 came and gone. People say this game been in development for "three" years are lying. This looks like a twice worked on and cancelled IP that somebody pushed just to make some money. This is what Square gets for making too many games at one time.
I didn't want to play this game after going through the demo, but I watched the boss fights out of curiosity, and... Spoilers: They literally do the same ending FF15 did where ghosts of past heroes show up behind the main character and kill the bad guy while said mc has glowing eyes and a burned arm.
"Forsaken" Oh yeah that old arena shooter/Descent hybrid that flopped. Kinda want to watch some gameplay to remind myself of it... [Searches for "Forsaken gameplay"] [All of the results are Forspoken because Google has interpreted Forsaken as a typo for Forspoken] Wow I knew it got buried but that's actually sad hahaha
My mind thinks of Destiny 2's Forsaken expansion. I remember going through all Destiny 2 content to get ready for it since they were finally giving the MC a voice again, and when it came out I was so disappointed.
Josh whedon knew what he was doing That's why he's usually called out as the progenitor of the quippy dialogue The problem is then a thousand people tried to copy him that weren't nearly as good at it as him with mixed results
Crazy Talk activates once more, she never once attempts suicide. One could make the argument that she's thinking about it while she's sitting on that roof, but neither her body language nor her words imply that she's going to do it. She straight up says she's going to "get her life together and get Homer(her cat) back". She then looks down at the street below, shaking her head violently: This is what I assume that article was talking about. However immediately after that you see that she was instead looking at a mysterious magic bug flying not too far below her, dashing into her apartment or whatever.
HELL it's not even an attempt, she just looks at the road for 1 and half seconds before the magic wooshes by her leading to the braclet. It happens so fast I ask why was it there in the first place? This games tone is all over the place.
The thing is, later in the game, a mind controlling/reality warping type boss reconstructs the moment and tries to convince her to kill herself; telling her how she is all alone and nobody would miss her. And the cuff voice telling her to not do it, making it very VERY explicit about what that moment was about. So while I think you are correctly reading the body language and the character thought at the moment, is actually just really poor directing. This is the game where, when the protagonist wakes up to her apartment being on fire, decides to not spend half a second picking the bag with all her life savings right next to her because she has to search for her cat and then proceeds to walk as slowly as possible the next second.
@Mushinronja that implies there was any progression at all, she started out being a cunt to everyone and then ended being a cunt to everyone, the whole fucking game she bitches and complains about not wanting to be a hero and wanting to go home then out of fucking no where when talking to her mother she goes on about how she tried to be a hero and wasnt cut out for it
I'm just going to throw out there that a game having a setting dedicated to turning down the amount of quips the characters make during gameplay is as clear an indication as any that the people making the game are not happy with the dialogue as a finished product. I feel like if a studio really felt like they had a winner on their hands with the writing and voice work, they wouldn't have even considered needing an option like that.
Wolves hunt in packs, Arisen- cough cough no but you hit the nail on the head. This game feels like the definition of "Insecurity" and the dialogue is a symptom of that. They aren't confident the gameplay alone will attract so... what was it Squidward said? Be as loud as possible?
@@Americanbadashh so let's assume that's the case, that the writers and voice directors thought this would work great, but QA told them to add that option. that leaves 3 potential situations that lead to that outcome: 1. the QA advice was ignored for so long that it became unrealistic to actually redo the lines 2. a senior writer with the authority to refuse to change their work used this option as a compromise 3. they left so little time in development for QA that there actually wasn't enough time to respond to the submitted changes, which is a massive failure to plan correctly.
The real funny thing about that Skinner "No, it is the children who are wrong" meme, is the fact that.... yeah, actually it USUALLY is the children who are in fact wrong.
@@PlaskiJakDeska that's a technicality. children never want to be punished. i would say nobody does, but we all know the kinds of adults who do. but you are technically correct, the best kind of correct!
The original star wars trilogy weren't necessarily "comedies" so some occasional sarcastic wit lightens the mood without ruining the tension. When everyone does it, it feels like nothing matters and no one is taking things seriously.
Lmao, was watching, got to Woolie saying the start of the game is a suicide attempt, then an ad comes on with the cheeriest music imaginable and now my coworkers are looking at me like I’m a madman for laughing.
The channel Just Write has a really good video on whedon speak in Marvel movies. It's called "What Writers Should Learn From Wonder Woman" and it's about Bathos, the idea of undercutting something sincere with something trivial. It's a good video and I'd recommend anyone interested in this topic (especially aspiring writers) to go watch it
I think you're missing something here. The Whedoning is the new purple prose (which is becoming weirdly accepted again, when it shouldn't). There's always a moment in an amateur's first book where they go out of their way to write the most descriptive sentence in the universe, and it's flooded with metaphors and other trash: "She walked down the windswept streets, rolling plastic bags jumping up in the wind like they were jeering at her, the unfeeling and cold windows in the skyscrapers above her staring down in disgust as she walked around in this dark and stormy night and stuff..." This is the author standing in front of a full length mirror and jerking off joyously. It's their show off moment. "Look at what I can do! I'm a real writer now!" Hell, dungeon/game masters are getting in on the fun too. "No! Nobody is allowed to move yet! I'm not done describing this forest! Everyone shut up!" The Whedoning is a cousin to this. Once again, some ass is trying to show off how clever they are. It's a weird flex to nobody at all, that's entirely for the writer's benefit. It's both somebody, high off being told by their parents last Thanksgiving, "Yeah, I guess you're pretty funny," and then also thinking they are good enough at reaching people/being relatable. And at no point do they think they're pandering. It's someone being entirely self-indulgent while denying to themselves and everyone else that they are. Which means they are going to take every criticism super personally. They are also only doing it because it is popular; they think, "If I write like this, I am doing what is cool and good." It's lazy; instead of trying, they think they can run down a checklist of established story traits and copy paste them into their work. Let's say, for some reason, it became a trend for the actors in a movie to break character, stare into the camera, and describe shoving nails into their dicks. The Whedonists would be doing this all the time. Or any other trend, no matter how ridiculous.
I think sometimes people write jokes that aren’t funny. Like … there are trying to be funny, but it comes off as annoying because the execution of the joke failed or it just was a ill conceived or placed joke
A clip that I think sums up Frey shows her entering a courtyard full of people, centred amongst them is a stage and woman soon to be executed. Frey's magical cuffs (that only she can hear) proceed to tell her that she needs to help the woman as this woman saved her from her own potential execution. Frey's response to this is to furiously demand he "shut the fuck up". It just sets her up as this vile, spiteful person that from what I hear, has zero development from her vitriolic ways until the FINAL section of the LAST chapter.
@@SonplaysMinEcraft The first one is fine, Dark World gets too much hate and Ragnarok is awesome even if it gave the wrong lessons when it came to humour and tone. I think Natalie Portman just drags the films down, she’s not putting in the effort so they come off as extra mid.
So, I'm surprised this didn't come up but: whisking your protag away to a magical place just before they are going to off themselves sounds like a really good way to make a company look like they encourage suicide.
This game is a textbook example of "Design By Committee" and you can see every check-marked box for each decision on the list of popular and accepted things that all modern entertainment need to meet their quotas in EVERY SCENE. It is utterly devoid of craft or soul and you can just FEEL the sweatshop tier art direction in this thing.
josh jokes are the new moore grimdark. trash tier writers once looked at watchmen and concluded that grimdark = good, now trash tier writers looked at guardians and avengers and concluded random anti-jokes = good. trash writers will always write trash just in different flavors. subverting expectations is another example.
That RE TV series is even worse now thanks to the Last of Us show. If your not even going bother to try and actually adapt games, don’t touch the series at all.
@@li-limandragon9287 Honestly, that show has barely (except Lance Reddick, but you can watch him in other good stuff), and I mean BARELY any merit to the Resident Evil franchise. No recognizable characters to latch to. Another bogged down apocalypse that ran out of steam since the Paul W S Anderson films. Ineffective heroes. I doubt that Capcom will ever reference or acknowledge that show.
Playing the game with a friend made me think once Frey enters Isekai land she becomes less of character that might have more endearing qualities and things to say about this new fantasy world and more of a kid in a sandbox but in a grown woman's body. Despite all the excuses I've seen a witty banter character works if you want to go for a Spider-Man making them crack jokes every now and again but isn't distracting or Deadpool where the point is that he is a loud mouth and the joke is he is annoying to everyone else but at the same time a capable fighter. Forespoken couldn't make up its mind so it bounces between loud mouth comedy routines and then the game tries to take itself seriously.
Wow you can tell when Pat just doesn't give a shit about a topic and wants to just poke fun at things he doesn't like, even if Woolie is making a serious point or correcting chat for being wrong. This, the fighting game hate, the constant spoilers, it's like Pat wants to run a comedy show where he constantly talks over the cohost when they bring up something he doesn't like. I love Woolie's deep insight on topics, but it feels like he's trying to bounce off of someone completely uninterested in the whole thing recently.
Props to you in trying to make a serious topic out of Forspoken, but I'm not sure there's a lot of fertile field there. At best, the game is mid, and the dialogue is either outright hateful, or just cringe-inducing. I think Woolie is trying to make Forspoken seem more serious from sheer surface impressions, but that's all he's really got. Of course, hindsight is going to leverage a lot in this opinion. At the very least, you're the only one brave enough to try to start the conversation that no one in this comment section else wanted to.
There's nothing wrong with the premise of Forspoken, it's just their execution of said premise that is dogshit. Frey makes me think "This is like if Ellie from the Last Of Us was a bad character"
The biggest problem with the game is your character is deeply, deeply unlikable. Shes a narcissist and a ahole for no real reason all the time, even to the people who are her "friends".
Lmao, I literally just finished watching a short Oneyplays vid of them predicting dialogue beats in Forspoken. It was ridiculous how predictable every beat was.
not sure if i count as a youth since im 22 but it was definitly cringe when i saw it, the only way i see this sppealing to a young demographic is if they have a strong cringe tolerance or its one of the first games theyre playing that appeals to the isekai fantasy they might like cause life sucks a la Never Ending Story or even the original Kingdom Hearts. like pre teen age range
I feel bad for Ella Balinska. She is so so beautiful and clearly talented...but Christ, she was thrown to the wolves. As a fellow mixed raced English person...we got done SO FUCKING DIRTY by the voice direction and writing. Just adds to the right wing BS that black and brown people in stuff make things worse...This game broke my fucking heart. Its hard enough being "British but not English" in the right wingers eyes, to the point where it's now mainstream political discourse... I hate living in a nation where 30% of the population actively wish we were Concentration Camp'D.
We live firmly under the thumb of a ruthless wealthy elite who are apparently capable of maintaining a permanent stranglehold on our political system, no matter how much incompetence or outright evil is on display. It sucks, and I can't imagine how that experience is for you. If it's at all helpful to hear, I'm always pleased to see black & brown English people in stuff. As a general rule of thumb, I tend to find that even in the event something turns out bad, it's far more likely to be the result of poor production than a poor performance anyway.
The script legit did her so fucking dirty. She tells a country _being threatened with magical genocide_ that she doesn't care if they all die, because nobody was there for her when she was an orphan. Right-wing critics of the game argue that such an _insulting and selfish worldview_ is inherent to 'diverse' people, which is intellectually dishonest as fuck.
So I thought people liked self-aware dialogue back in the day? Do people hate it now or did the haters just come out of the woodwork? Is it because Joss Wheadon and Justin Roiland are bad people? I'm not defending badly-written self-aware dialogue or comedy without having sincerity to balance it out. Forspoken is pretty bad tho.
Forgotten is a game that encapsulates the "missing the point" of cringe dialogue. They give you the ability to adjust the *frequency* when the core issue is the tone. Good job, your testers must've got through hell to fight for the ability to turn it down. Too bad these devs missed the point that bad dialogue is bad regardless of the frequency. Devs: "Hurrr durr makin' gamz iz hard u guys" No. Taking critical feedback is hard. And lots of devs are babies who suck at it.
Yes I called it Forgotten and not Forspoken, that was an intentional joke. This game won't even exist in peoples minds in 6 months. Hence the nickname.
How she SHOULD HAVE reacted to using magic: "WHOA! I did that? I just did that! Wait... talking bracelet... YOU made me do that!! You're actually kinda cool!" She didn't earn being a narcissist in any way, not even from trauma I SAID IT!
I think it is funny that Whedon gets all the blame for this when he is one of the few writers who could consistently do it well while still having the characters grounded. I guess the curse of success is to have everyone poorly copy you.
@@Brave_SJ It is weird my opinion of scripts Whedon has written is separate from my opinion of him as a person. It sounds like he was an awful person to work for, that it has caught up to him, and he’s unlikely to get much work anymore. That’s his problem. But am I supposed to retroactively like Buffy/Angel less than when I was in high school and didn’t know what a soul behind the cameras on those shows even looked like?
"Did everyone just start going in on something they didn't actually know?" Of course they did Woolie, and I'm glad you shined a light on that. From what I've seen this game isn't perfect and it has legit criticisms but there is a lot of bandwagon "lol cringe" hate going on.
The quippy dialog is exhausted half way through the game and it start repeating. At least she's not referencing memes. Also I want everyone to know that late in the game a villain shows up uses their illusion power to send Frey to the building she was going to jump off and goes full LTG and tries to berate herself into suicide that sequence was FUCKED.
Forespoken thing is just wrong and just didnt bother to look into it beside the one review .twitch chat is perfectly valid to jump down there throats the next time they get something wrong. But the moment chat is wrong ( or just throwing insult and not explaining)they cant live that down. Like this game sucks , but get it right. All you had to do was watch the intro cutscene , they more then likely had subtitles .
The main character witnesses one of her companions say her father died, says "I don't care if this world burns" to her face, then later tries to one up a dead father with her own tragic backstory.
Alex YIIK?
@@luan.galaxy I'M FORSPOKING OUT RIGHT NOW
"I am an orphan! No one accepts me!"
She screams to the newly orphaned children she created by her actions.
That companion happens to be the same woman that defended her in court and saved her life by breaking her out of prison.
@@ckorp666 oh god please don't tell me that is the actual angle here.
The game is the definition of "too much"
She's an orphan. She's on the verge of going to jail. She's on the run from a gang. She's homeless. The place she's squatting in burns down. She loses all money she had in the fire. She has to give her cat away. It's christmas. It's also her birthday.
This is all before she even gets to the fantasy world.
Edit: Oh yeah, she's also dragged before a medieval court to decide if she's a witch or demon or whatever. Probly killed instantly if they don't like her answers, and she says don't sweat it, cause she's been in rougher situations before. Like being in court for stealing a car.
How is that too much I done had shit happen to me like this it was hit after hit so when something else came along I'm like this ain't shit
@Poeboi33 Its too much cause they added on way too many things to try and make you feel bad for her. It's like Robocop's violence. It's so much to the point It's ridiculous, only with this, it's not intentionally ridiculous
@@Eidlones I think the problem is we don't even consider these as 'realities.' I remember at work an ex-new hire told us on his second day in the most stereotypical Jersian accent over how he made his wife cry and got kicked out of the house for sleeping around so he bummed out at his friends crackden where he almost got stabbed on the street outside... we were all looking at him wondering why the hell he would tell us this in work. People live full, deranged, and often times reality show lives that other people don't ever experience.
I don't know why the devs/studio thought to target that kind of demographics life with a $70-80 game, though.
It has been said before already but i need to add that.:
When the house is on fire, the bag of money is at her feet and you cnat grab it because you need to grab the cat in teh other room first, and when you turn around, its now impossible to get teh cash. So not only they add "too much" but they force it on you.
The ending is the best tho. You know what, if life sucks, leave it, stay in fantasy world, that cat as orphan as you? leave it, he could probably find its fantasy world and mother maybe,
This is my new low in writing. Its not even funny.
Insincerity is the modern equivalent of wedging "eXtreme" into everything.
God that is so accurate.
Oh lord, you're totally right.
Xtreme XSpoken-Force
Explain in detail please, my dumb lizard brain doesn't entirely understand.
@@doclouis4236 Back in the 90s, media focused towards a younger audience had this phase where everything had to be XTREME! Lots of slang peppered in for its own sake, skateboards and other "XTREME" sports being thrown in because that's what the kids are into, a general rebellious spirit to appeal to the at-the-time punk and grunge rock that was semi-mainstream.
The trend for media nowadays to hamfistedly throw those "winking at the camera" comments that are endemic to stuff like Marvel movies has a great deal of the same energy: stuffy suit and tie types trying to appear hip and cool for the Tiktok kiddies.
Forespoken is a cautionary tale on the importance of hiring an Art Director
And a writer, and a gameplay director and a character designer
More interesting environments than Elden Ring.
And ADR director...you know...to direct the over tone of the voice acting?
Graphics fade but art direction is forever.
@@mrheisenbird2691 It's about the same to be honest, grassworld, iceworld, lava world, crumbling castle.
Basically Super Mario World.
Flirting: this party is getting crazy let’s rock
Harassment: Im not where I’d call earth I’m seeing freaking dragons
It says alot that standard Joss Whedon dialogue sound like the titles of trashy isekai manga.
"now this is my kind of rain"
@@God_gundam36 no wonder the sky looks so funny today
@@Mr.Faust3 "devil's never cry"
Oh wait, *THAT* was Forspoken? Now I know why I feel like I have no idea what people have been talking about for the past week.
I just put up a barrier between my mind and that trailer until right now.
I think the thing is actually this: When this dialogue happens in games instead of movies. In games, since they are a more individual and personal experience, since we are the ones playing it, it is us who should go a bit like "wow, that was awesome, I did that", "that is so stupid, I love it" and not the character. When it's the characters it feels like the game is making fun of us for enjoying it, point out that we are cringe in our childish enjoyment of flashing colours, bright lights and fantasy.
I see it more as the game telling you what to think and feel.
It's like a character saying how scared they are vs the zombies in RE1 Remake breaking through the window scarring me for life as Jill doesn't react at all.
I think the actual real problem with this game is just the presentation. Look up a video of cutscenes from Jak & Daxter. Just watch the first scene after Daxter becomes an Ottsel and they visit Samos. See all the expressions and camera cuts and zoom ins and emotion in the voice lines?
Now watch one of the scenes from Forspoken and how... dull and lifeless they are. The camera just does these slow rotating shots and the character models are so stiff that you barely see any emotion from them. There's no music either to heighten the scenes or play up the goofiness and one of the major characters is a ring band so you get nothing from him other than his voice.
A lil bit but it really does just come down to awful dialogue. Whether a game or a movie, I'd hate seeing a character speak and act like Faye.
@@SpecterVonBaren Yeah, one of the little things that Toby Fox did in Deltarune was to put characters’ heads in the dialogue boxes whenever they were reacting to something in a conversation and that always struck me as a clever use of the medium - but he was around for enough of Homestuck to get exposed to what happens if you go TOO meta and lampshadey with things.
The games I can think of that have "You can turn down the amount of dialogue the main character keeps blabing about" as a positive feature are: Forspoken, Bubsy and YIIK
High on life is another.
I feel they should add a "More Dailog" option than too.
@Mushinronja Not the main character. Although I would love if you could force Frey to sit in a chair and tell her you need her to STFU.
@Mushinronja Wolves hunt in Packs, Arisen
I could have sworn one of the Gex games had one as a cheat code
That depressing intro is ruined by the fact she wants to leave New York and has this money saved up. She wakes up realizing her apartment is on fire and goes to save her cat while NOT being allowed to pick up her money bag that was right next to her when she woke up!
So the writers would make for terrible RPG GMs
Seems like easy fix would be that shit burns down when she is out and comes back to a burning appartment.
Wait her money burns down? Has the protagonist never heard of banking?
@Graham Ferguson she's squatting in a condemned apartment lol
The money is literally sitting at her feet and she's not allowed to pick it up.
She didn't save it up, she stole it.
"Who needs suicide? I have magical powers!" is a hell of a line. Though from experience, I think that even at my lowest point, finding out I had magic powers would totally give me a new lease on life.
I think that applies to the vast majority of people
Kid Icarus Uprising continues to be my gold standard for characters quipping Whedon or any self-aware writing style.
Mainly because not everyone does it
The ones that do know when to stop.
The quips are tailored to the character so you can tell just by the text alone who's talking.
And it's clearly the characters talking to each other about stuff in-universe.
One chapter in KIU has Pit by himself with no one to banter with so he banter's with himself. He even starts doing impressions of other people to make it more plausible. He admits he's going insane by the end. It's goddamn hilarious.
The characters in Kid Icarus are so likable and funny that I sat through a whole montage of them talking about Smash characters. After playing the Forspoken demo … I do not feel the same about Frey and Cuff
"FLOOR ICE CREAM GIVES YOU HEALTH"
@Riku86 Sorry you used the example that I find more annoying than all the quips in the MCU combined. Even just hearing the Kid Icarus gang talk in Smash made me never want to touch Uprising.
@@li-limandragon9287 Congrats you learned what opinions are.
I can't in good conscience call KI:U's writing style Wheadonism because there isn't really this sense of cynicism characteristic to his writing style. The cast knows they're in a video game and that they do some goofy stuff and they fully embrace it. They so casually talk about what happened in the previous games (emphasis on *games)* and the weird rules of the current one that you start to wonder if there ever was a fourth wall in the first place. Plus they're not scared to commit to the bit. Pit pretty much always loses it when hot springs show up and the writers always find a creative way to repurpose the gag and it's great.
The point about characterising the gags also rings true. No one is trying to sound like what these people think teenagers sound like. Everyone has a very clear comedic role and they all mesh together to form fun and unique dynamics.
Tl:dr Uprising is just really clever and deserves more props.
The gall of Pat going "okay but did you read it carefully" in this bit slayed me
if anyone knows about reading shit wrong it'd be him tbf
well chat being stupid isn't either of their faults
Forpsoken: We'll include a dialog slider so people can tune how much banter they prefer.
Bubsy: BUBSY.
You mean FURspoken eh?
"what could possibly go wrong"
Hearing people complain about Bubsy's dialogue in 'The Woolies Strike Back' kinda gets super annoying since I keep remembering that slider.
Why the hell did you keep it on? Do you not remember you can turn that shit off any time you like? Why are you raw-dogging it if you KNOW you can't take it!?
After thinking on it and seeing multiple back to back clips of Forspoken and Hi Fi Rush, I think I finally realize what's really wrong with Forspoken's dialogue. It's not that people just hate quirky quipping teenagers, it's that whoever wrote Forspoken's dialogue writes as though they were _ashamed_ that they were writing a fantasy story. There are writers who committed to making a fantasy world with history and lore and culture (that you can only glean from optional lore books), but Frey doesn't want to engage with *any* of it. She dismisses everything outright and keeps hiding behind snark and sarcasm to put barriers of separation between herself and all the stuff that's clearly outside her realm of belief. And if Frey isn't engaging with any of the fiction or the narrative, then neither is the player.
I think the simpler answer is that she just isn’t funny. If you play something like Ultimate Spider-Man, Peter Parker is antagonistically riffing on everything, making fun of his villains, himself, and the general situation. Insincerity about his life as a superhero is a core part of his character … they are just better jokes
Thank you.
I'm tired of people who think that you have to _Critique_ everything you engage with. And quip and snark and generally disengage with the world at large.
Why do I want to play a game that doesnt want me to engage and be interested in it. How can the player be interested in something If the main characters, their POV, dont.
It makes you feel like you are wasting your time. And a player will not waste there time on a game that doesn't value their time.
That's the problem if they had o' girl that wrote Legacy of Kain as a lead writer it'll be completely different. Yet the writers we got really do feel ashamed they're writing what they're writing. Not all genres need a deconstruction by western writers yet they seem to do it by habit at this point which is why people are tired. Yes people aren't tired of those types people overall. It's that people are tired of the main characters not caring about the world their in. For some people they REALLY love these characters. Yet that's only because the MCU made all their characters basically Spider-Man
It's just so absurd that she's like, 'One day, kitty, we'll move someplace with clean air and blue skies.' And then she literally moves there, and the cat can't come with, and she hates it.
It's _more absurd_ that her only 'friend' watches her dad die, and Frey responds by playing victim Olympics and saying, 'I don't care, nobody cared about me when I was an orphan, I won't help you and I hope your whole world burns,' _to the girl's face._
They tried to do some sort of 'her heart is hardened by a tough life,' but they only know how to show that with the most extreme acts of hostility _out of nowhere._ And they don't know how to slow-burn that into a redemption arc.
It's a very realistic depiction of a modern day neurologic young adult. It just also means she has zero charm and affords herself zero sympathies from the audience.
I like how Woolie's so burned by the internet yelling at him that, as he says he's going to double check something he's already calling out people for trying to take his words out of context. All in the span of a minute.
I mean, he's done it to himself. They're so used to just saying stuff without making sure it's correct information and then getting mad at chat for correcting them.
keeping receipts is important
@@alexanderson4497 And I mean tbh you can do that and just have fun with it, but not if you're concerned about being correct as Woolie tends to be lol.
The funny thing about it is whoever thinks it's a suicide scene is already watching with the sound off. She considers it for 2 seconds at most before the fantasy shit starts.
@@lastlunarrun6418 It's not about self-harm but yes she does consider it but it's not about that!
What Woolie said is perfectly spot on, that childlike sense of wonder is the soul of fantasy stories imo, and what a lot of movies and games don't understand is that you have to give the characters themselves the opportunity to feel that wonder, to feel awed (or scared or whatever) by the world around them, otherwise no matter how much amazing things you put into that world the player/viewer isn't gonna feel anything.
If, as this game seems to do, you only write cynical characters that can't seem to really believe in what they are seeing and react to everything with self-aware quips, as if they know they are in a story, how do you expect the player to suspend disbelief and feel amazed when the characters themselves don't?
It's not only lazy, but cynical: i put dragons in here but i don't care about dragons, i'm above that, i just did it because it's fantasy and there MUST be dragons, right?
That's a good point. I just finished playing God of War 2018 for the first time, and I realized that having Atreus around for the whole game is such a smart narrative choice because he allows the player to see the wonder and magic in the world through his curious eyes, in contrast with Kratos who is jaded and distrustful of the world.
Not only was Hi-Fi Rush better as an action game it also showed how you actually do self-aware quippy dialogue.
The dialogue in Forspoken isn't self-aware quips. It's banter between Frey and the cuff (vambrace) on her arm. Forspoken has problems but, the dialogue isn't really one of the problems, the attitude that they give Frey is a problem though, that is until you get to the final act of the game.
- Unanounced game gets a trailer and drops out of nowhere.
- Gets universal praise and can be a GOTY contender.
- Refuses to elaborate.
Is Hi-Fi the equivalent to the Giga-chad meme?
@@leithaziz2716
Yes it is.
I have a nagging suspicion that the publishers had no faith in it due to being rather weird and "out there" (as in not a bland generic open world thing) and assumed it would flop, so they just let it plop out without any real marketing and it's making waves in spite of them.
I don't actually know the backstory of that game's development but I have a strong hunch that it's success and popularity is actually a surprise to the suits in the board room.
@@MattManDX1 It is hard to gauge what publishers are thinking we they act like we all want live-service games
@@MattManDX1 Nah there's no way they didn't expect it to be successful. The level of success might be a surprise but Hi-Fi Rush has a lot of pedigree and polish behind it. It's not a random indie drop. It's a game that they highlighted in their showcases and had enough confidence to drop because they knew they had something good that would turn heads. The people that made and released this game know what they're doing.
I found it weird that they had Frey not just suicidal but also literally starting the game in a court hearing about her third pending felony, and than be in trouble with this weird mob girl outfit who put a gun to her face for not pronouncing their boss's name correctly.
Like why couldn't she be someone who's a three-job working wage slave needing to take of a younger brother because dead parents while trying to get into college, make her have a reason why she doesn't want to be in the isekai rather than just go 'This is dumb yo'.
Plot device. Also Frey being "suicidal" isn't even a thing in the beginning. She's more depressed and has plans to escape to a better life away from New York. Her motivations for breaking the law are to make money to get away and start a better life, which she clearly shows in her apartment with a duffel bag full of money and a literal drawing. Suicidal people don't think like that. If you actually played the game, you would know that.
In alot of Isekai anime, youll seer the character go "man, theres really nothing waiting for me at home" and thats why theyre not in a rush to get back, but with her backstory, it seems more like she should be going, "oh thank god, i dont have deal with all that bullshit," so that added to the offness to the dialogue, like the devs didn't know how to write a human being in that position, so they just went "make them snarky and never take anything seriously, itll show theyre strong or something! and the playerbase will love it! what, the story doesnt fit it? i dont care, just push it out."
I mean she does have her cat but in the end of the game, she decided not to even come back for that.
@@AKPC001 That's because it was western writers writing a story that overall only really works when you go hard into the fantasy element of it. Since Peter Pan and Alice in Wonderland overall count as "isakai". Isakai do not dwell on the "IRL" aspect too tough. That's why Frey's on NY section was so off
The real reason is because she's black. No, that's not my opinion, that's the writers. They decided since she was a black protagonist, she had to be a criminal and involved with gang violence. Because the idea of a black protagonist *not* being a criminal is unthinkable to those racist whriters.
Gotta love how OneyPlays predicted nearly every Forespoken line
Woolie just broke out a Hall & Oats song and thought no one would notice!
Yeah, I saw that too.
I think it’s more so he expected Pat to notice but forgot Pat is Pat.
IT IS OUT OF TOUCH THURSDAY, MY DUDES
Wooah, wooah, woooah
REACHING OUT
FOR SOMETHING TO HOLD
I call it Twitter writing. Writers have started writing dialog like it’s Twitter. Presumably because they spend so much time on Twitter they think people talk like that.
the real problem is people *do* talk like that.
@@miguelnewmexico8641 Not smart people or sane people, but yes.
I call it the "Hollywood white liberal" dialogue
I haven't played the game myself BUT I have watched a good chunk of other people play it just for the purpose of seeing if the story is good or not
and my BIGGEST problem with it is inconsistency of the main characters and motivation whiplash
-The MC is introduced as a homeless felon down on her luck, having to do community service and in trouble with a local gang, she has a big emotional moment/speech about wanting a fresh start off in a far away land and to be needed by someone. SHE LITTERALLY GETS THAT and doesn't stop talking about wanting to get back to new york. The only thing she would want to go back for is her cat but she gave it away shortly before being isekai'd. why is this new setting not good enough for her when she wanted a fresh start and has nothing to return to
-There's a point where MC has a trauma-off with a female NPC who just lost basically everything (which is a problem of its own) and how she doesn't care what happens to the fantasy world and everyone can die for all she cares, she just wants to go home. but then when she has her powers taken away LATER in the game she gives a big speech about how she thought she was the hero this world needed, but every time she tries to do the right thing the rug gets pulled from under her. does she want to fight for this world or not, writers need to make up there mind cause it definitely wasn't an arc
-shortly after the trauma-off where she tells NPC that she doesn't care about her realm and its people, she then talks with another NPC who asks for help and MC says that she's tired of fighting for a world that doesn't want her help. THESE PEOPLE HAVE LITTERALLY BEEN BEGGING FOR YOUR HELP, THE PERSON TALKING TO YOU IS ASKING FOR HELP.
-minor gripe but she tells her cuff to shut up so she can blend into a crowd when she's the only one who can hear him
not a lot of points for the story but they're pretty big for investment in character and they're stretched over an entire game where she doesn't go on any sort of character arc/journey and is just a static smug/snark/self-centered quip hero who belittles the first person and ""source"" of her powers in a new world. she constantly jumps back and forth on being ok with and an ass to the cuff for no reason that I can see other than the writers knew he was going to be the big bad
can't speak on graphics and gameplay cause I could care less about the graphics and haven't played the game and regardless of what you feel about the dialogue clips going around, the MC is hard to root far with how inconsistent she is.
One show I can think of that side-stepped the Lamp-shading issue in super-hero shows is Batman: The Brave and The Bold. With that show, it's less about mocking the bizzare aspects of comic books for the sake of a cheap laugh at the cost of sucking tension, but moreso an acknowledging and celebrating the Silver (or Golden?) age of DC comics, which was known to be hammy and cheesy. The show's a lot of fun.
That's a good example of non-lampshading. Characters don't instantly comment how weird something is. They accept it and react accordingly.
Frey being at the lowest of lows in her life when she gets isekai'd just makes her attitude through the rest of the game make absolutely no sense. She's constantly bitching about wanting to go back to her shitty, shitty life and I have no idea why. It's not even like her life on Earth was *safe* - her being threatened with a gun and then running for her life from some gang is like the first gameplay we see.
If she didn't get Isakai she would have died within days. You had a gun in your face, you screwed over some mob boss, they burned your squat down and done so much stupid shit you should have been in prison... Fighting zombies with magic > Typical NYC crime victim. Which is better?
honestly I think the "I just moved shit with my mind" cutscene would be dramatically improved if the cinematography was better, like if the camera was jumping around a bit to match her excitement. But it just does this slow pan around her while she's freaking out and it feels so limp
When the girl that was wisked away to a misterious new world and almost killed by several monsters and wild animals see a giant fuck all dragon she lets out , not fear , not panic , but mild annoyance , and thats the perfect summary
@Mushinronja people just love to lie lol
Whedon generally always had a good grasp of the balance between quips and grounded storytelling - the vast majority of his dialogue felt like it was originating primarily from the characters and the situation they were in, as opposed to just interchangeable one-liners.
The problem was mainly the glut of less-skilled writers that wanted to ape his style without understanding the substance that propped it up.
Age of Ultron shows his weaknesses tho, Ultron is Adam from Buffy and just as shitty. Avengers 2012 I think is the best from him and that is way less quipy than others. Whedon isn’t a genius thespian, other writers in the Buffyverse were better than him.
@@li-limandragon9287 For sure, he's not perfect and Buffy had some absolute rubbish mixed in with the gold (Riley and Adam are fucking embarrassing). I'm just saying the currently fashionable complaint about Whedonisms is a bit misleading.
Whedon can also mess up the quip ratio, and I think there are just some actors who cannot make his dialogue sound natural. But there are also writers who just don’t have the specific sense of humor need to write this kind of dialogue well and are just sticking in “Well, that happened” humor, rather than anything clever enough to enhance the scene
@@Ipsenscastle True a lot of that is probably fuelled by the news that he’s terrible person who’s ruined lives.
And then hi-fi rush steps in to show how it’s done
...I want a woolie stream with the quip all the way up
That sounds like another Bubsy moment. Pretty sure they never recovered from that mess.
Woolie playing a Souls game: “Please be secret door, please be secret door, please be secret door, yay!”
@@shinvaX bubsy moment?
they should take notes with jack garland on how to make a isekai character on your fantasy game.
"Just tell me about the crystals.
That's all I wanna know."
@@BIGBLUBLUR My favorite was when Jack stopped that one dudes monologue “I don’t give a fuck who you are!” Jack Garland is the best lol
I’m doing a chaos check in showing support for one another
i'm not gonna lie, chaos aside Jack had a really interesting story and it's ending put ff1 into a whole new perspective for me and I just love it
Calling all Jackers
I wish Whedon dialogue had never left Buffy
It was bad in Buffy too
@@dragoknighte48 it was GREAT in Buffy.
I wish Whedon fucking died.
@@Zangelin it had its moments. But i get the impression of a lot of people not remembering how it actually was.
Like if we rewatched it. It would have cringe
@@dragoknighte48 yeah but new trash smells better than old trash and Buffy was the new trash of its day.
I watched Tim Rogers play the first three hours of this game on stream and I noticed two thing when it came to the dialogue
1) it's not that the dialogue is necessarily bad (which it is), it's that the characters are constantly yammering on about some uninteresting/badly written lore or just being generally smarmy with very little down time to just let the player breathe and soak in the environments, it's always gotta be interrupted by *something*
2) the quips/jokes/whatever aren't even funny or witty or well written to begin with.
the game also ends in like a solid 2 hours worth of cutscenes and dialogue explaining lore that the game was too lazy to explain up to that point
so you go from the characters spewing inconsequential lore at random, to the game forcing you for a couple of hours to listen to bullshit
And they repeat if you play the game longer than 4 hours
@@Hegataro good god
@@RadonX9 also the first major bossfight is against a sorceress who also has the cuff and is evil because of it
oh man I wonder if the cuff is actually the bad guy and if it's gonna take until the last 5% of the pre-final-boss playtime for the game to go "ha ha, didn't see that coming, did ya"
@@Hegataro oh so literally Not Wheatley
What do you mean, kids don't like Busby?
Black Panther became one of my favorite MCU characters because in addition to how good everything else is, T'Challa never quipped once. Not a single time. And it made him stand out.
So without spoilers this game has a really weird writing whiplash near the end. Basically, your character goes "I feel X" in an emotional scene, you progress a tiny bit with the plot, and then she goes "I feel absolutely Y" and trust me Y is the polar opposite of X. It feels like they cut a scene or two near the end of the game and it gets disjointed.
Just give the spoiler version please
@@TheSergio1021 If I remember right she goes: "I don't give a fuck about this fantasy world I want to go home to New York!" and then if you do the 'good' ending she goes: "I love this world and all the people here and I'm going to stay here and defend this world I love."
There's no scenes of her wanting to stay at all, she's very pissy and wants to leave ASAP for pretty much everything and if you make that one choice she suddenly wants to stay and help people.
Let it sink that this game had 5 writers, which includes the lead writer of Telltale’s Walking Dead S1 and the creator of both Soul Reaver and Uncharted
Sounds like a case of too many cooks.
But I'm outta my head when you're not around 🎵
7:10 I think the reason people are confused at you/saying you are wrong for saying she attempts suicide in the beginning is because they make it rather subtle that she was considering suicide, to the point that it's almost completely glossed over. To reiterate for clarity: she doesn't _attempt_ suicide, she merely considers it for a moment. I had to go look up the scene again because I didn't even notice anything to do with her being suicidal, I thought she was just brooding in a high place that made her feel comfortable and figuring out what she was going to do with her life. Though to be fair I wasn't focused on the scene because I saw it in a review video with someone else talking during it. Literally the only allusion to it is that she says "No, I'm better than that" while the camera is so far away we can't really see how she's feeling. Presumably to give the sense of her being and/or feeling small in the world, but the drawback of that cinematic approach is that the audience (or at least I) don't connect with the character in that moment and don't have a clear view of what else she might be feeling, although maybe that too was the point.
Getting to this video late, but something that just FINALLY hit me (yes I'm a slow asshole, I can't help it) is comparing the attempted execution of Frey's character as "A felon who is actually a good person thrust into a world where their history won't matter" to a game that already has done it: Telltale's The Walking Dead game.
The problem with Frey's character is that she's a repeat offender constantly committing crimes, dismissing the multiple chances she's being given, and even when she gets transported to a new world with a clean slate, she still acts like an asshole. The game can't decide whether she's supposed to be a "rough but with a heart of gold" or "completely cynical asshole".
Lee was a CONVICTED MURDERER, but still an incredibly empathetic man; his crime was ten times worse than what Frey had done, but it was committed in a fit of emotion and throughout the game, he doesn't squander the trust that other people show him when no one knows about his crime; You can even choose to tell other people if you've saved Carly in your run, and when Lilly tries to leak his secret, Kenny immediately has his back because of how much Lee has looked out for everyone else. And at the end of the game where he's at the brink of death, Clementine first mourns her parents and Lee's response is completely sympathetic:
Clementine: "My parents... It's so horrible!"
Lee: "I can't imagine, sweetpea."
And remember, Lee DID also lose his parents, he saw their blood-stained office and was told their bodies were dragged out and abandoned in the alleyway. But all he cares about is Clementine's pain.
It baffles me that there are people that try to defend this piece of shit character when Lee exists and is considered a legendary MC of the 2010's video game era.
Exactly. If Forspoken's intro wasn't written by an AI, it might as well be. Frey is a character that clearly written by a committee who went way overboard in trying to make her cool, relatable, and tragic, all at once without any coherent personality to make it all work.
We're explicitly told she's a grade A student and apparently enjoys reading classic novels like Alice in Wonderland, but she's also an abrasive and snarky street urchin. She's homeless and squats in an empty apartment, but is also perfectly well-kept and keeps a collection of designer sneakers. She'll return a lost phone or wallet to a passerby, but is a convicted felon possessing a stolen a dufflebag's worth of cash (despite being caught for her crimes). She hates New York and wants to leave, but she's insistent on returning despite having magical powers in a fantasy world
Like you said, the game can't decide what kind of character Frey is supposed to be. She's like the self-insert protagonist of a YA novel, marketed to the wrong crowd.
Whedonisms are the verbal equivalent of jump-cuts.
At least in 14, we still have Squeenix's good Fr(a)ey.
Boo. Boo this person lol
If Hi-rush is anything to go by it's less out of touch and more bad execution.
It also helps that Chai is treated as an idiot and the world does not take him seriously.
@@quaglegagle674 Its basically a good balance of showing that Chai is a good fighter/"Rockstar" but hes a complete doofus at everything else.
That sort of thing is really hard to pull off right.
@@jtlego1 It also doesn't help that isekais tend to prop up the fish out of water character as someone destined for some greater purpose. Although I wonder if Forspoken would be better perceived if it were going for a more cartoony style like Hi Fi instead of the classic fantasy genre
It feels like what they do with Frey could be good if it were in service to a character arc. She refuses to be sincere and accept her isekai story because she thinks she might be in a simulation or insane and wants to be above it. But that's all about execution. Could also help if her talking magic cuff sidekick were more of a straight man instead of just another soulless quip-making engine.
For those of you who complained about silent protagonists back in the day, do you miss them yet?
All the time
i dont think ive ever had a problem with silent protagonists, but i can't say i particularly miss them just because of this.
Fuck no. Unless someone is canonically mute or silent, silent protagonists sucked too. There's a balance to be struck here.
@vulpinepanther2001 it depends on the project, don't be an extremist
Forspoken makes me think of Kai Leng from Mass Effect 3, every time he came on screen the vibes would literally just die and I would stop having fun.
Nearly every time Forspoken lady quips it has the same effect, she kills the vibes in the scene and breaks my concentration and immersion, it gets better eventually but it really just feels like she should've just been a normal person in this world instead of a shitty marvel superhero in an isekai.
The game running like shit did not help.
At least in Mass Effect 3, Kai Leng isn't the protagonist that you're stuck with for 100% of the game.
Man your fault for even wasting money on that game
Seeing oneyplays guess what was going to happen with at least 60% accuracy was wild
11:22 Go on and sung that oldmperson song Woolie,while you "reach out...for something to hold!"
Yes, Pat. It REALLY feels like they wanted to do FF15 again. There are even quests that I felt "Wow, this is just like that sneaking quest in FF" In other parts it's like FF but westernized, but still Japanese on the logic which makes things weird.
Like how everyone comments she has strange clothes, then she just walks around with the strange clothes partially showing, and she doesn't really even hide her face or her very obviously white shoes that are a dead giveaway for the location.
Why couldn’t they just go back a finish the Dawn of the Future DLC instead?
You can see noctis looking animations all over her base sword combo
It's because "forspoken" as an ideal came before FF15 and was supposed to be closer in fanasty tone from the Agni and Witch trailers. Then some suited Bozo came walking down and shit all over it after FF15 came and gone. People say this game been in development for "three" years are lying. This looks like a twice worked on and cancelled IP that somebody pushed just to make some money. This is what Square gets for making too many games at one time.
I didn't want to play this game after going through the demo, but I watched the boss fights out of curiosity, and...
Spoilers:
They literally do the same ending FF15 did where ghosts of past heroes show up behind the main character and kill the bad guy while said mc has glowing eyes and a burned arm.
Remind pat that dragon age is a whedonism game
and game of thrones..
and a little lotr
restarting the video because seeing Principal Skinner sent me into a pavlovian fit of reciting the steamed hams bit from start to finish
They wanted Kaine and Weiss but they did not know how to write Kaine and Weiss
The high banter option is literally from the bubsy reboot
"Forsaken"
Oh yeah that old arena shooter/Descent hybrid that flopped. Kinda want to watch some gameplay to remind myself of it...
[Searches for "Forsaken gameplay"]
[All of the results are Forspoken because Google has interpreted Forsaken as a typo for Forspoken]
Wow I knew it got buried but that's actually sad hahaha
My mind thinks of Destiny 2's Forsaken expansion. I remember going through all Destiny 2 content to get ready for it since they were finally giving the MC a voice again, and when it came out I was so disappointed.
For cringe dialog I would change the voice to Japanese. I can't tell if I don't know the language.
That doesn't fix the dreary gameplay.
This is basically how my friend fixed Apex and Overwatch.
@@HumanoidCableDreads nor does it fix the bad performance in pc
@@HumanoidCableDreads Good thing the gameplay is not dreary so it doesn't need to be fixed then.
Josh whedon knew what he was doing That's why he's usually called out as the progenitor of the quippy dialogue The problem is then a thousand people tried to copy him that weren't nearly as good at it as him with mixed results
5:00. Woolie saying these words is the single most ironic moment in this podcasts history.
Crazy Talk activates once more, she never once attempts suicide. One could make the argument that she's thinking about it while she's sitting on that roof, but neither her body language nor her words imply that she's going to do it. She straight up says she's going to "get her life together and get Homer(her cat) back". She then looks down at the street below, shaking her head violently: This is what I assume that article was talking about. However immediately after that you see that she was instead looking at a mysterious magic bug flying not too far below her, dashing into her apartment or whatever.
HELL it's not even an attempt, she just looks at the road for 1 and half seconds before the magic wooshes by her leading to the braclet. It happens so fast I ask why was it there in the first place? This games tone is all over the place.
if she was suicidal it makes her look even worst when she spends 99% of the game telling everyone to fuck off and die and that she wants to go home
The thing is, later in the game, a mind controlling/reality warping type boss reconstructs the moment and tries to convince her to kill herself; telling her how she is all alone and nobody would miss her. And the cuff voice telling her to not do it, making it very VERY explicit about what that moment was about.
So while I think you are correctly reading the body language and the character thought at the moment, is actually just really poor directing. This is the game where, when the protagonist wakes up to her apartment being on fire, decides to not spend half a second picking the bag with all her life savings right next to her because she has to search for her cat and then proceeds to walk as slowly as possible the next second.
I love the people saying she wasn't gonna do it while admitting that the game was clearly hinting at her considering it.
@Mushinronja that implies there was any progression at all, she started out being a cunt to everyone and then ended being a cunt to everyone, the whole fucking game she bitches and complains about not wanting to be a hero and wanting to go home then out of fucking no where when talking to her mother she goes on about how she tried to be a hero and wasnt cut out for it
I'm just going to throw out there that a game having a setting dedicated to turning down the amount of quips the characters make during gameplay is as clear an indication as any that the people making the game are not happy with the dialogue as a finished product. I feel like if a studio really felt like they had a winner on their hands with the writing and voice work, they wouldn't have even considered needing an option like that.
Wolves hunt in packs, Arisen-
cough cough no but you hit the nail on the head. This game feels like the definition of "Insecurity" and the dialogue is a symptom of that. They aren't confident the gameplay alone will attract so... what was it Squidward said? Be as loud as possible?
Counter point, that might have been added during QA/ focus testing. Stuff like that happens a lot.
@@Americanbadashh so let's assume that's the case, that the writers and voice directors thought this would work great, but QA told them to add that option. that leaves 3 potential situations that lead to that outcome:
1. the QA advice was ignored for so long that it became unrealistic to actually redo the lines
2. a senior writer with the authority to refuse to change their work used this option as a compromise
3. they left so little time in development for QA that there actually wasn't enough time to respond to the submitted changes, which is a massive failure to plan correctly.
@@bluerogueschannel The Pawns from DD are a gift compared to what we've devolved into.
@@burnin8able Knowing SE I'm guessing all the above because this game as a concept is like 10 years old.
The real funny thing about that Skinner "No, it is the children who are wrong" meme, is the fact that.... yeah, actually it USUALLY is the children who are in fact wrong.
Oh Edna we both know these children HAVE NO TASTE!
That meme was made for you, my guy
@@rattles2326 name one correct child.
@@miguelnewmexico8641 Children who think that they shouldn't be punished for defending themselves agains a bully.
@@PlaskiJakDeska that's a technicality. children never want to be punished. i would say nobody does, but we all know the kinds of adults who do.
but you are technically correct, the best kind of correct!
"Are we out of touch? No... Touch must be out of us!"
5:40 its Simple Woolie, she got Isekaid. The game is literally just an Isekai and a pretty cringe one at that.
@11:02 BUT I'M OUTTA MY HEAD, WHEN YOU'RE NOT AROUND
The main thing I'd like the point out is that that kinda dailog is way older than Wedon, original Han Solo used it a lot in the original Trilogy.
Maybe but in this case EVERYONE wants to be Han Solo.
It sure felt a lot more charming when ONLY Han did it.
That’s just Harrison Ford
The original star wars trilogy weren't necessarily "comedies" so some occasional sarcastic wit lightens the mood without ruining the tension. When everyone does it, it feels like nothing matters and no one is taking things seriously.
in the 70s...
Lmao, was watching, got to Woolie saying the start of the game is a suicide attempt, then an ad comes on with the cheeriest music imaginable and now my coworkers are looking at me like I’m a madman for laughing.
Shout outs to Pat's extremely subtle Frey Myste nod
Punch up is the bane of writing
Forsaken? Forspoken? Force Awaken?
Forsaken sounds better.
@@luisalonso959 yeah forsaken would have been a better title
Woolie trying so desperately hard to do a Hall and Oates joke and Pat just stonewalling him.
The channel Just Write has a really good video on whedon speak in Marvel movies. It's called "What Writers Should Learn From Wonder Woman" and it's about Bathos, the idea of undercutting something sincere with something trivial. It's a good video and I'd recommend anyone interested in this topic (especially aspiring writers) to go watch it
I think you're missing something here. The Whedoning is the new purple prose (which is becoming weirdly accepted again, when it shouldn't). There's always a moment in an amateur's first book where they go out of their way to write the most descriptive sentence in the universe, and it's flooded with metaphors and other trash:
"She walked down the windswept streets, rolling plastic bags jumping up in the wind like they were jeering at her, the unfeeling and cold windows in the skyscrapers above her staring down in disgust as she walked around in this dark and stormy night and stuff..."
This is the author standing in front of a full length mirror and jerking off joyously. It's their show off moment. "Look at what I can do! I'm a real writer now!" Hell, dungeon/game masters are getting in on the fun too. "No! Nobody is allowed to move yet! I'm not done describing this forest! Everyone shut up!"
The Whedoning is a cousin to this. Once again, some ass is trying to show off how clever they are. It's a weird flex to nobody at all, that's entirely for the writer's benefit. It's both somebody, high off being told by their parents last Thanksgiving, "Yeah, I guess you're pretty funny," and then also thinking they are good enough at reaching people/being relatable. And at no point do they think they're pandering. It's someone being entirely self-indulgent while denying to themselves and everyone else that they are. Which means they are going to take every criticism super personally.
They are also only doing it because it is popular; they think, "If I write like this, I am doing what is cool and good." It's lazy; instead of trying, they think they can run down a checklist of established story traits and copy paste them into their work.
Let's say, for some reason, it became a trend for the actors in a movie to break character, stare into the camera, and describe shoving nails into their dicks. The Whedonists would be doing this all the time. Or any other trend, no matter how ridiculous.
This is what you call a purple comment
Funnily enough I can only bear the ones that describe things to the point their lungs have dried out
@@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat lol I get that. I am creatively sterile, I almost need things to be described that much to be able to visualize it properly.
@@mattb6616 I don't think you know what that term means
I think sometimes people write jokes that aren’t funny. Like … there are trying to be funny, but it comes off as annoying because the execution of the joke failed or it just was a ill conceived or placed joke
Forspoken has a Bubsy quip slider. WTH?
😭😭🤣
A clip that I think sums up Frey shows her entering a courtyard full of people, centred amongst them is a stage and woman soon to be executed. Frey's magical cuffs (that only she can hear) proceed to tell her that she needs to help the woman as this woman saved her from her own potential execution. Frey's response to this is to furiously demand he "shut the fuck up".
It just sets her up as this vile, spiteful person that from what I hear, has zero development from her vitriolic ways until the FINAL section of the LAST chapter.
It is indeed the children who are wrong.
I’ve known plenty of children to be wrong, including myself lol
Pat: Her name is Frey? ....Probably not as cool as the other Fray.
Me: *YEAH SHE FUCKING WISHES SHE COULD BE THAT FRAY.*
Fordspoken is for the audiance that that has no chill and is just angry at everything. 🤣
The only game I can think of that has a "banter slider" is Bubsy.
Pat mentioned Thor 2 being Marvel without humor sucks, but forgot that Thor L&T exists and its embarrassing.
That’s the other extreme. Doesn’t excuse the lack of humor either. Both are prime examples
Rägnarok
did thor only have 1 good movie
@@SonplaysMinEcraft The first one is fine, Dark World gets too much hate and Ragnarok is awesome even if it gave the wrong lessons when it came to humour and tone.
I think Natalie Portman just drags the films down, she’s not putting in the effort so they come off as extra mid.
So, I'm surprised this didn't come up but: whisking your protag away to a magical place just before they are going to off themselves sounds like a really good way to make a company look like they encourage suicide.
This game is a textbook example of "Design By Committee" and you can see every check-marked box for each decision on the list of popular and accepted things that all modern entertainment need to meet their quotas in EVERY SCENE.
It is utterly devoid of craft or soul and you can just FEEL the sweatshop tier art direction in this thing.
josh jokes are the new moore grimdark.
trash tier writers once looked at watchmen and concluded that grimdark = good, now trash tier writers looked at guardians and avengers and concluded random anti-jokes = good.
trash writers will always write trash just in different flavors. subverting expectations is another example.
The actress who plays the MC was also in the "Zootopia porn" Resident Evil show. So yeah, her track record is less than stellar.
That RE TV series is even worse now thanks to the Last of Us show. If your not even going bother to try and actually adapt games, don’t touch the series at all.
@@li-limandragon9287 Honestly, that show has barely (except Lance Reddick, but you can watch him in other good stuff), and I mean BARELY any merit to the Resident Evil franchise.
No recognizable characters to latch to.
Another bogged down apocalypse that ran out of steam since the Paul W S Anderson films.
Ineffective heroes.
I doubt that Capcom will ever reference or acknowledge that show.
whats the connection between re and zootopia porn?
@@lkim100 It's just a lame joke or some dumb dialogue that will unfortunately be It's top quote from Resident Evil: Netflix.
@@battlion507 oh ok
"Is she a celebrity?"
She was in the Charlie's Angels remake and that Netflix Resident Evil show, so yes she is. But not a particularly good one.
Playing the game with a friend made me think once Frey enters Isekai land she becomes less of character that might have more endearing qualities and things to say about this new fantasy world and more of a kid in a sandbox but in a grown woman's body. Despite all the excuses I've seen a witty banter character works if you want to go for a Spider-Man making them crack jokes every now and again but isn't distracting or Deadpool where the point is that he is a loud mouth and the joke is he is annoying to everyone else but at the same time a capable fighter. Forespoken couldn't make up its mind so it bounces between loud mouth comedy routines and then the game tries to take itself seriously.
you don't think people who are suicidal make jokes? they definitely do
I just wanna say, the tone of the story was so fucking off that I didn't even realize that Frey was about to attempt suicide.
Wow you can tell when Pat just doesn't give a shit about a topic and wants to just poke fun at things he doesn't like, even if Woolie is making a serious point or correcting chat for being wrong. This, the fighting game hate, the constant spoilers, it's like Pat wants to run a comedy show where he constantly talks over the cohost when they bring up something he doesn't like. I love Woolie's deep insight on topics, but it feels like he's trying to bounce off of someone completely uninterested in the whole thing recently.
I mean in Pat's defense, it's really difficult to muster up any degree of interest in this AI-generated dreck.
Props to you in trying to make a serious topic out of Forspoken, but I'm not sure there's a lot of fertile field there. At best, the game is mid, and the dialogue is either outright hateful, or just cringe-inducing. I think Woolie is trying to make Forspoken seem more serious from sheer surface impressions, but that's all he's really got. Of course, hindsight is going to leverage a lot in this opinion. At the very least, you're the only one brave enough to try to start the conversation that no one in this comment section else wanted to.
There's nothing wrong with the premise of Forspoken, it's just their execution of said premise that is dogshit. Frey makes me think "This is like if Ellie from the Last Of Us was a bad character"
The biggest problem with the game is your character is deeply, deeply unlikable. Shes a narcissist and a ahole for no real reason all the time, even to the people who are her "friends".
Lmao, I literally just finished watching a short Oneyplays vid of them predicting dialogue beats in Forspoken. It was ridiculous how predictable every beat was.
not sure if i count as a youth since im 22 but it was definitly cringe when i saw it, the only way i see this sppealing to a young demographic is if they have a strong cringe tolerance or its one of the first games theyre playing that appeals to the isekai fantasy they might like cause life sucks a la Never Ending Story or even the original Kingdom Hearts. like pre teen age range
I feel bad for Ella Balinska. She is so so beautiful and clearly talented...but Christ, she was thrown to the wolves.
As a fellow mixed raced English person...we got done SO FUCKING DIRTY by the voice direction and writing. Just adds to the right wing BS that black and brown people in stuff make things worse...This game broke my fucking heart. Its hard enough being "British but not English" in the right wingers eyes, to the point where it's now mainstream political discourse...
I hate living in a nation where 30% of the population actively wish we were Concentration Camp'D.
We live firmly under the thumb of a ruthless wealthy elite who are apparently capable of maintaining a permanent stranglehold on our political system, no matter how much incompetence or outright evil is on display. It sucks, and I can't imagine how that experience is for you. If it's at all helpful to hear, I'm always pleased to see black & brown English people in stuff. As a general rule of thumb, I tend to find that even in the event something turns out bad, it's far more likely to be the result of poor production than a poor performance anyway.
The script legit did her so fucking dirty. She tells a country _being threatened with magical genocide_ that she doesn't care if they all die, because nobody was there for her when she was an orphan.
Right-wing critics of the game argue that such an _insulting and selfish worldview_ is inherent to 'diverse' people, which is intellectually dishonest as fuck.
So I thought people liked self-aware dialogue back in the day? Do people hate it now or did the haters just come out of the woodwork? Is it because Joss Wheadon and Justin Roiland are bad people? I'm not defending badly-written self-aware dialogue or comedy without having sincerity to balance it out. Forspoken is pretty bad tho.
No it was a thing before the cancelling. Do anything too much, it runs the risk of become hacky.
Forgotten is a game that encapsulates the "missing the point" of cringe dialogue. They give you the ability to adjust the *frequency* when the core issue is the tone. Good job, your testers must've got through hell to fight for the ability to turn it down. Too bad these devs missed the point that bad dialogue is bad regardless of the frequency.
Devs: "Hurrr durr makin' gamz iz hard u guys"
No. Taking critical feedback is hard. And lots of devs are babies who suck at it.
Yes I called it Forgotten and not Forspoken, that was an intentional joke. This game won't even exist in peoples minds in 6 months. Hence the nickname.
@@Secret_Takodachi what a clever joke.
@@miguelnewmexico8641 Don't worry, you'll forget it ever existed in a few months, just like the game it's joking about.
How she SHOULD HAVE reacted to using magic:
"WHOA! I did that? I just did that! Wait... talking bracelet... YOU made me do that!! You're actually kinda cool!" She didn't earn being a narcissist in any way, not even from trauma I SAID IT!
How can I earn narcissism? My self-consciousness has been my achilles-heel😢
@CyberCop008 I was just saying
I think it is funny that Whedon gets all the blame for this when he is one of the few writers who could consistently do it well while still having the characters grounded. I guess the curse of success is to have everyone poorly copy you.
Whedon actually has a good sense of humor, it is why so many writers poorly copy him
@@TheJadedJamesPity he’s such a terrible person
I think it's more like the curse of being a sex pest is to have everyone pretend they never liked you in the first place.
@@Brave_SJ It is weird my opinion of scripts Whedon has written is separate from my opinion of him as a person. It sounds like he was an awful person to work for, that it has caught up to him, and he’s unlikely to get much work anymore. That’s his problem. But am I supposed to retroactively like Buffy/Angel less than when I was in high school and didn’t know what a soul behind the cameras on those shows even looked like?
Enjoying it more than anything square's put out before
Suicide is badass!
*mash theme plays*
"Did everyone just start going in on something they didn't actually know?" Of course they did Woolie, and I'm glad you shined a light on that. From what I've seen this game isn't perfect and it has legit criticisms but there is a lot of bandwagon "lol cringe" hate going on.
Like Aris said: why do you hate this game? It's exactly like all the crap you like.
elaborate?
The quippy dialog is exhausted half way through the game and it start repeating.
At least she's not referencing memes.
Also I want everyone to know that late in the game a villain shows up uses their illusion power to send Frey to the building she was going to jump off and goes full LTG and tries to berate herself into suicide that sequence was FUCKED.
Forespoken thing is just wrong and just didnt bother to look into it beside the one review .twitch chat is perfectly valid to jump down there throats the next time they get something wrong.
But the moment chat is wrong ( or just throwing insult and not explaining)they cant live that down.
Like this game sucks , but get it right.
All you had to do was watch the intro cutscene , they more then likely had subtitles .