Sub $250 chinese brands are now fine for me. I've come out of the brainwashing that $1000 is cheap for a swiss made watch when i have bills to pay in real life.
There are Swiss watches are have true worth for their money that no chinese/Seiko can reproduce, but they are not in the 1000$ range and they are a once in a lifetime purchase. IWC (Portugieser), Omega (Seamaster), Glashuette (Panomatic Lunar) each have one of those under 10K and there's a few from Vacheron Constantin, A. Lange & Sohne, etc. if you really hit the jackpot. Everything else (Tudor, Roles, Patek, Hublot, etc.) is just marketing and brand status, but even that can make some people happy, so I guess, to each their own.
Nailed it! This sounded a little classist and exaggerated what Seiko has done to their main line of watches since sunsetting the ones that got them where they are (skx for life!). The AliExpress business will steamroll most of the entry level market watches due to a cash grab by others. Why pay 100s more for something that will need a service that cost as much out more when the time comes. Citizen and Casio will be the ones that survive the next generation of watch buyers IMHO
@@stevengreen471 I don't love that either, but at least most big brands have a foundation of original design and technical innovation they built their brand upon. The factory brands just steal popular designs they think will sell. Really hard for me to support that
Totally agree. Seiko 5 gmt (ssk line) its a clear homage of the Rolex GMT but everyone say its unique and sexy 😂. If you use an invicta, so you are trying to copy rolex 😂😂. I dont understand
@@stevengreen471 because we're lazy about noticing who stole from who, so we only notice the more salient copies. Like when a small brand copies a very recognizable model. Also, it's about status. A small brand has to prove it's there to stay and has intrinsic value, and just copying other models won't get you there. Whereas big brands are already established, they don't need to prove to you their value. So if they have a copy here and there, it doesn't do much to their image
I have 20 Aliexpress Automatic watches. From cheap Addiesdive to San Martin, the quality of the San Martin is on par with my 'entry level' Swiss watches. Plus they are reasonably priced. Great comparison video
I have the Tudor BB58 and I picked up the SM version sn0008c for comparison. I was shocked to see just how strong the lume is on the SM. I have several watches in my collection and the SM has the best lume by far than any of the others. I have Seiko, CW, Tudor, Omega, Tissot, Casio, Rolex and others and by far the SM beats them all with regards to lume. So Kudos to SM on the superior lume they have applied to their BB series.
Most micros are made in the same factories as the Chinese watches. For example Erebus is made by San Martin. A micro has to find the best price for quality parts, and at the moment that means China.
There's two categories of micros: one that tries to go for the masses and they compete with the Citizen/Seiko category, and they have to go the China route. The other is for collectors/people who know a bit more about watches, and they start in Europe usually, outsourcing movements locally, or in Switzerland and only parts/case/straps in China (which even luxury brands do by now, by the way). These usually start at the 1000$ mark and go up, there's at least a dozen of them that are really good (mostly German or Nordic brands).
Microbrands are *marketing* companies that outsource the design and manufacturing to contract manufacturers. These manufacturers in turn outsource virtually everything to small workshops in China. They don't have their own factories.
@@andreidinu7316 You assume they make things in Europe based on the marketing BS. If you bother to search on Google Maps you will discover in most cases the 'factory' is just an office. Even major Swiss brands outsource their production to China.Then they send the watches to Switzerland to have the movement cased. That is enough to be 'Swiss Made'. Quite a few Swiss bands eg Ball and Claro Semang (movements) are Chinese owned.
My wife recently stumbled upon the tiffany blue Citizen Tsuyosa. I warned her that it might be a little big, but she likes bigger watches, so I bought it for around $300 during the Labor Day sales in the US a couple weeks ago. I've always been a big Citizen fan, but I was super impressed when this watch came in. I don't think you can do much better for $300 from a big brand. She loves it!! Originality is a big deal to me, so the Chinese factory brands are out. I dabbled in micro brands when I first came to the hobby, but I've also gotten away from those as well. If somebody had $300 to spend and liked the design, I would recommend the Tsuyosa all day long
I absolutely agree. These chinese watches may be unmatched when it comes to specs for money, but I just can't bring myself to spend money on a borderline fake watch with a nonsensical google-translated name on the dial. I absolutely agree on the Citizen Tsuyosa, that thing is a looker! Especially the newer model with the small seconds complication and textured dial. Good call.
I agree with the sentiment totally. But I am happy that San Martin is now making their own designs. I may pull the trigger in the future given their continued success
I think lumping all Chinese brands together is unfair. San Martin is a mediocre name but not all of their watches are blatant copies. Not to mention many big Swiss/japanese brands have many line ups that lack originality entirely
I was looking at that lovely Seiko, thinking to myself, "Self, this might be a Seiko worth purchasing!" Then I saw the cheap, lazy, pressed clasp, the hollow end links, the unsigned crown, and was turned off.
@@chanslorvalorum6905 No one really needs an automatic watch. A cheap quartz tells time. We collect automatic watches because we like the mechanics and the details. I like a signed crown - it finishes off a watch and it tells me that the manufacturer is paying attention to details and not skimping. For the Seiko price premium, they can give us a signed crown. I have some of my first watches that are now 50 years old and the mineral crystals are so scratched that I can hardly read them.
@ionlybluffAA my hardlex crystal has 0 scratches after 4 years and I wear it almost daily. People just want something to moan about even if it's a non-issue
I have watches from all categories: Seiko SKS and baby Alpinist, Direnzo and RZE, San Martin, Pagani Design, Sea Gull. I enjoy them all but I am really impressed with the bang-for-buck of the chinese watches, especially San Martin. They also seem to regulate them. As a side note, my seiko alpinist quit working and I had to pay about half the cost of the watch to get it repaired.
That's normal. 6R movements that Seiko uses in Alpinists and many other watches are the worst watch movements in the world. No other serious movement maker in the entire industry makes something as shite as the Seiko 6R. I'm sorry you had to deal with that.
Since the discovery of Chinese manufacturers, and their outstanding build quality, I've gone down the rabbit hole. I used to turn to high value Japanese brands for quality and best bang for the buck. It's now the Chinese brands. I've been a watch collecting nerd since the 1980's. Swiss, Japanese and a few Russian, were dominant purchases. Now it's Chinese offerings. Can't beat their bank for buck ratio. As long as you can stand some of the silly brand naming chosen! ie. Mysterious Code, FeelNever, etc. The Chinese manufacturers really should consider hiring a western consultant.
I recently got the San Martin BB54 and am thoroughly impressed by it. I think the fit and finish is better than the Seiko I recently bought, and it has a Seiko movement. Can't beat it for the price.
Great video. I’ve always liked watches but only recently gotten back into watches. Like everything we purchase, it’s very easy now to do research and compare and contrast different watches. What blew me away was how many very expensive watches used the same exact movements as others that were priced at 1/10th the cost. Even if the design and reputation was better than the Chinese brands, I still had trouble buying something that had a shorter power reserve, or not even have a sapphire crystal. I think that the introduction of the microbrand category and Chinese homage watches have really brought these issues to light. And it makes picking a watch a little more complicated. You can no longer asssume that the $3000 watch is superior to the $300 watch. Glad your video covers these topics.
The only brands names I would currently buy are casio and vostok [vostok recently had a 20% price increase]. All other brands are out of the price range that I am comfortable throwing away money on. That said, I am all aboard on the Ali Express train and buy everything from Skimei to Steeldive to San Martin. I do own a limited edition pro-master but am not in the market for any new brand big brand name products.
I’ve owned multiples in each of these categories. For the less than $300-ish price category a watch like a San Martin is easily going to be the best quality watch. It just comes down to how you feel about the Chinese companies like SM. A lot of their watches are just blatant copies of big brands. And it does give me a little bit of the ick sometimes.
I recently picked up a Baltany Driver 1921 hand wound version and will say that the quality is quite surprising (in a positive way). Finishing and detailing is much better than I would expect for the ~116 USD I paid for it. While not much for originality, I think it’s an excellent watch and wear it regularly.
Ive a few San martins and seikos and you cannot deny that some San Martins pieces are actually better than most seikos produced especially spec wise...Its about time seiko made all there pieces with sapphire and ceramic inserts... Not hardlex and Aluminum....Micro brands are producing some quality pieces nowadays too that MMI Cuttlechron is gorgeous... Great review and good points mentioned....
Interesting comparison. Seiko is surely down on specs, up on brand promise, but another important aspect for some people who want to extend and switch up their collection is that they hold their value better when re-selling. Not as an investment, just to provide additional funds for new watches. I have some Seikos, Citizens and Casios, but also a few Chinese watches with "inspired" designs, good specs but mainly just good looking watches I enjoy wearing.
It has been a while I have seen a Seiko that I like, and I used to like them a lot (especially their SKX line they retired for whatsoever ever reason). Only the micro brands are keeping alive my interest in watches.
seiko are refusing repairs of defective (stuck bezel that doesn't rotate at all any-longer) rotating bezels under warranty claiming that the rotating bezel on a dive watch is just an aesthetic feature and aesthetic defects are not covered under warranty. so i don't think the tradition and the well established after sales customers service should be considered a plus when thay are using it to scam their customers into paying for repairs while under warranty, at least not for seiko any more.
It makes sense when microbrand create something original indeed to ask for a higher price than "Chinese factory" produced watch. It makes little sounds when micro brand asks twice or three times the money of generic AliExpress watch while the only change is the dial (color, texture)
It is hard to believe what you are telling us about Seiko. I mean a rotating bezel on a dive watch. Is there for a purpose. It is called a timing bezel. For Seiko to actually refuse to repair something like that is ridiculous.
I've given up trying to work it out. I had a Seiko dive watch that I paid about £200 for, and I recently bought the Seiko watch you featured and there's so little difference between the two that I sent it back. Sure, it was a little better build quality but it wasn't 4 times the price better, there wasn't a lot to choose between them and in fact the cheaper one had a sapphire glass. I think the best thing to do is decide on your budget then just buy something you like the look of. They all do the same job so most of us couldn't care less about the movement. Love the MMI design and the date display is very original, don't like the color but the blue one in steel looks amazing.
Here’s a fun fact. I got a crappy attitude from somebody at Safeway the other day. I was wearing my SEESTERN Doxa Sub 600T homage. He said that I should’ve “just gotten the original” despite not just having $2,000 to throw around. I then told him that Doxa isn’t even really Swiss anymore. They’re made in China. Blew his tiny little mind.
That guy's a tool. I love watches and I'm always interested in what I see other people wear. I would never tell someone what they "should" have bought.
The Seestern Sub 600T quality rivals and somewhat surpasses the Doxa counterpart. That's why I elected to just buy the Seestern myself. No regrets, I was blown away.
Great commentary, Dave. It's refreshing to hear more discussion of microbrands and unique designs since there's some much coverage of the big brands like Seiko & Casio.
Just ordered my first non Chinese/homage automatic watch. I got a used Sekio Captain Willard SBDC181. A new Willard I dont think is a good value, but a depreciate used one in good condition I felt the price was right.
Nice video. Interesting seeing how much has changed over the last 20 years. Timex has been moving up-market and it's cool seeing some things hit and some miss. Everyone's upping their game
I really love this comparison, not just between brands, but the watch ethos as a whole. It represents what people are looking for and in some ways who they are. Excellent video. Currently looking at the this baby Samurai but the lug-to-lug of the older model is smaller? Really need to try them on
One advantage of major brands is also that often you can find them in your location, you can see them, try them, put their models side by side to compare. + You don't have to pay import tax, custom duties
I like the observation about specs over desirability, that’s so true . I’m a recent ( 18months ) collector / enthusiast and I have a lot of AE watches that I don’t wear , however some of the homages are of good looking watches well executed . Need a clear out .
I used to be a snob about the chinese brands, but after getting one my mindset completely shifted. They're genuinely well made and I've had absolutely zero issues with any of them. As long as it's not a straight 1:1 ripoff, I'll gladly wear it.
Great video, and some excellent points that you made...I will say that I own two San Martins, and absolutely love both of them, despite that they are "knock offs", I've had people give me compliments on both of them.
I mention to folks that only have major swiss brands how they should contract folks like San Martin to be able to develop straps and such for them. They go "whattt???" They really havent taken notice about how much the Chinese have caught up and in some ways surpassed the main brands in terms of cases, finishing, dials and straps etc. Another 5 years and the movements will be hard to beat.
If they stop using seiko mvts at least, my most accurate movement is not my miyotas and oviously not my seikos, its a seagull mvt. That is running cosc in 5 positions when messuring it, and in reality run a bit faster, but still close.
The Swiss have been using Chinese parts since the *1960s*. Many high end high end Swiss brands use Chinese bracelets and dials. The movement is often the only non-Chinese part in a
Dive style watches, stainless steel and I can only afford the Chinese homage watches. I haven't found anything to compare favorably in cost no matter the heritage or history. All "major" brands have priced themselves out of my league.
Really interesting video Dave, thanks. It's good to see the bigger channels giving San Martin and other Chinese watches the credit they deserve. I've been saying for quite a while now that San Martin especially are right up there in terms of build quality and finishing. There's a reason that microbrands and even some of the big brands use them to produce their watches. As you said, they offer fantastic value for money too. For me personally, I just don't see the value when it comes to the likes of Seiko now. Their prices keep going up, but then, as you said you still have things like, hardlex and pressed clasps etc. You also hear lots of stories of misaligned bezels too. So--much-so, that it's become somewhat of a joke now. This is why I have quite a few Seiko homages, but only one actual Seiko... The 'Black Russian' Cocktail Time. They make great looking dials, but the rest of the watch tends to let it down... Especially when Chinese brands and microbrands are using the same movements, but in a better overall package.
@@NCSheriff7 It's an attractive watch keeping good time (fit for purpose) and at an excellent price reflective of the manufacturing costs in todays CNC world of making such devices. You have a problem with any of that?
@@percussion44 I have a problem with calling copycats and aliexpress ripoffs "homages". its a litte bit ridiculous. none problem of buying them and wearing them. Or you think "Pagani Design" is paying Homage to the Omega Speedmaster Apollo 8 with their Pagani Design 1779. but well it has established itself as a word, but rather only among the “homage” customers
@@NCSheriff7 If I understand you correctly, do I think "homage" is Pagani's intent in making watches like 1779? Not at all. Like Jody said, "Pagani's design dept. is a photocopier and a Rolex catalog". Do I care what a bunch of rich douche/snobs selling overpriced stuff to other rich douche/snobs think of that? No I do not. If some dude with a 12K Rolex Explorer II see's some average Joe wearing a near identical looking $200 Chinese "homage" and feels a little less special about himself...good.
Just bought a Chinese seamaster clone with the Chinese PT5000 movement. I will get to experience the Chinese watch scene in it's entirety. Hopefully all goes well!
To truly evaluate what makes a watch "the best," we first need to define the term. At the budget end of the market, most mechanical watches are very similar, whether they feature mass-market movements or in-house alternatives. Brands like Seiko or Miyota produce movements that, in performance, are nearly indistinguishable from many in-house offerings. This is because the natural limitations of mechanical watches-such as functionality, accuracy, and durability-restrict how much they can really differ. As a result, when buying a mechanical watch in this price range, you're often safe choosing whichever design you like, as reputable brands produce watches that are largely comparable. However, if you're looking for true functionality and modern capability, it might be time to embrace the future and opt for a smartwatch, which offers features far beyond what traditional mechanical watches can provide.
great video! My first priority is indeed the design of a watch. I have a Lorier with a chinese movement and a hesalite which other people would not buy for that reason, but I love its design!
Excellent video summarizing these three worlds of watchmaking and the pros and cons of each. 👏👏👏. I have some major brand representation in my collection with an emphasis on trusted microbrands who have proven themselves over 5-10 years with solid design, quality, customer service and support, and resale value. Haven’t yet ventured into the Chinese brands but San Martin, in particular, has really impressed recently.
Great video. I really appreciate how you get into the background. I have a Seiko Samurai v1 Save the Ocean--it was the first 'nice' watch I bought. It is kind of a chonky boy, but I love it. If it were the same size as the new Samurai, it would be ideal, but considering I got it for ~$320, I have zero complaints.
The fit and finish on that San Martin is incredible. I only own one San Martin and it happens to be the one your showing and I'm still speechless every time I look at it. Can't believe what you get for the money. Unfortunately when I play poker and people ask what it is because it does draw attention , I'm not proud to tell them what it is. So just because of that I don't wear it , I wear one of my micro's . My favorite right now is DuFrane.
I'm more of a micro or micro with a retro look brought back kind of guy. I do have quite a few citizens and I'm only really interested in the Chinese brands if it's an original design. Great vid, thanks for the upload 👍
Excellent design innovation by MMI. Personally I'm not one for dive watches but if this is an example of their design chops I'll be very interested to see what else they can produce. Interesting choice to put a leather strap on a dive watch though. Side note: Massive flood of nostalgia watching your opening to the video. I recognized the Japanese architecture immediately, having spent half my life there, and still being the proud owner of a house with a beautiful washitsu like that. :)
Many Microbrands and some Seiko models are produced in China . Seiko is here in Germany a middle end company , you can buy it in department stores.(Grand Seiko is a different thing) In this price range Citizen offer better value for money.(major brand) Im now some years in the microbrand universe and many microbrands are offering more for money.(good price value)
My Aliexpress delivery experience is so far very good. Delivery time… a few days To Australia 🇦🇺. I suspect they have got stock in warehouses here already. At least the major brands like San Martin Seestern and Addiesdive. My experience with Micro brands is the opposite. I can see on my tracking that they left the factory quite fast but they get stuck in customs for long periods of time. Not sure why…Japanese brands are the most predictable either from Japan 🇯🇵 ( with expensive delivery charges) are 7/days from Singapore 🇸🇬 3-4 days free delivery. Or gray market dealers in Australia 2-3 days delivery free.
Got my 38mm solar prospex diver for 400 euros at a AD, been wearing it for close to 2 years now, got 9 other watches, also more pricey ones. But my solar what I wear most the time and would 100% be what I kept if only could have one watch, they are slept on.
My last few watches have been from San Martin and Cronos. Not only is the quality quite remarkable, but I've had email conversations with real humans about my purchases - I buy direct - something that would never happen with companies like Seiko. And the fact that Seiko still use things like pin-&-collar adjustment on the bracelet is just pathetic. I buy a San Martin and I get very high quality screw-pins, on-the-fly adjustment etc. Lastly, the whole thing about copying others' designs - I really don't care. Every brand copies every other brand; even the original Rolex Submariner was based on a rival's design. Major brands are getting sloppy on features and quality, and their prices are starting to look very poor value.
I like that San Martin actually trying to step away from cloning. However, during the lume battle you do notice that the 6 o’clock position is missing and it looks odd. Lastly, I don’t mind the logo, I actually like it.
I had numerous Seikos, great watches. Now I own one Seiko, one Orient, three Glycines and 11 Chineses with Seiko movements. All great affordables watches under 250$ each most of the Chineses around 100$. I prefer having 16 watches to choose from rather than have one or two more expensive. Since we send all our productions to China, they now know the technologies and they are catching up with us, their quality is getting better and better and they have an excellent price/quality ratio, like solid Stainless steel, Saphire crystals and Seiko movements. I recommand them!
San Martin being one of the "premium" factory brands actually puts in the effort for decent lume on most of their watches; some of them have been as good or better than some Seikos I've seen.
My favorite micro-brand is from a Florida-based company, Aragon. It's called the Divemaster 42 (A199BLK), a 200M automatic with lumed ceramic bezel, gloss black enamel dial with lumed applied indices, orange-colored and lumed minute and second hands, day/date (NH36A), blued/branded counter-weight, and S.S. case with exhibition caseback. The size is perfect for my 8in wrist. The design...unique and practical. I really like this particular watch. Aragon is the successor to Android, which sold the name to another company (forgot the name of that buyer). In any event, I do own a few Androids...automatics with polished Tungsten case, bezel, crown, and bracelet. Coupled with a sapphire crystal...each is about 15 years old and not one has a scratch. They weigh a lot, but they are also extremely durable.
I guess everyone has their preferences. In the case of the San Martin here I like the date design and location and I have no problem with the San Martin logo. But then I am strange as I love the Orient logo even though many watch enthusiasts hate it.
This is a great video Dave and I think you fill a niche in the market. You fill it very well and you made an interesting comment about manufacturing. Has there been any analysis about Chinese manufacturing and what parts are used in other nation’s manufacturing? Japan is probably not in the mix but Swiss, German, French and UK timepieces generally have Chinese content though it is not easy to determine the ‘percentage’.
Using "the capital employed" measure AKA "bang for your buck" then it is Aliexpress watches all the way. Just make sure they have a stainless case, solid end links and a milled clasp and you will not go too far wrong IMHO. I have a nice collection of Addiesdive, Watchdives and Pagani Design watches and I am completely satisfied with them.
I am a major brand guy but I have been very tempted by the micro brands and their specks and flashy dials. I ended up not buying the micro brands because I kept asking myself when would I wear that watch.
Very interesting topic . Well done Dave. As a microbrand creator since 2011, I appreciate the 3 watches you show here . The production quantities and design for these watches are very different . With my experience , microbrands are going all directions from horrible to beautiful. However deciding if this is a beautiful watch or not a beautiful watch basically the majority of people looking at watches are inspired by the homage in by everything of the past and probably there they do like what looks like a vintage or an old specific watch that has made the story at the time But with a microbrand for my own experience having something completely different and unique modern and functional with ideas that are out of the box I do think this is where microbrand can hit the Mark and managed to get some customers Regarding the Chinese brand it is very interesting to see that they take a lot of queue from every microbrands client working with them to make and produce their own watches. As it is for microbrands so difficult to protect the watches with a specific pattern in order for the Chinese not to be able to copy them this is so expensive that a basically we leave the factory that did the watch for us with the usage of what we asked them to do This is why I use a lot of different factories I don't want to mix all of these factories together in one big factory taking all my order in order to be protected again all the different things I do in my watches
in the end just buy what you like, it always comes down to personal taste, all the watches here use either a NH or Miyota movement so there isn't much difference in the movement quality except for the high beat with the Miyota. SO pick what you like in the end its you who uses the watch to tell the time you will look at it 99.9% of the time.
You should really check out Lorier. Microbrand led by a husband and wife team who are former school teachers with a passion for vintage inspired watches. Outstanding quality and value. Originally based out of Texas but now operate out of NYC. I own their Neptune and it easily outshines MANY major brands.
I just want to second this. I am really a huge fan of their work. I love old designs but am never likely to buy a watch from the 1950s etc. their watches are a nice reinterpretation of many of those designs rather than a copy of just one. I own a couple of their watches and will be buying a couple more once they are back in stock. The specs won’t be for everyone, but for me they really scratch that itch for mid-century modern classic looks.
This video is off the mark for sure. All these brands or manufacturers coming into the make means that there is a watch for everyone's budget and style. It forces every brand to offer better value. Sure established brands can rely on their name for now but Lorier, Monta and Christopher Ward are becoming established over a short time because of their designs, specifications etc. There is nothing wrong with that. So wear what you love.
Well, the nh movements are amazing. Today when wearing a high value watch you my be attacked or even killed. Im way more confident and happy with a good quality aliexpress brand. High specs and strong.
I really like that Seiko. Just a great looking watch. But hardlex and a pressed clasp on a $600 watch? Come on, Seiko. I own that avocado San Martin watch. And just used it at the beach on vacation. Really striking design, and held up very well. I totally disagree about the matching color date wheel. I think it elevates the design.
Biggest let down on Seiko etc is the clasp. For an extra 20 cents they could give 5 or 6 micro adjust. For another 50 cents they could give a divers extension.
If you were talking about quartz watches then I would whole-heartedly recommend the Chinese-factory brands. The only thing to be careful of is the photographs they use on Aliexpress as they do not always give the full picture. I recently bought a day-date homage which looked good in the photos but actually had a bezel that was far too thick and completely spoiled the watch. It turned out that there was one single photo that properly showed the watch, all the others had been photoshopped to disguise the bezel. The one honest picture was very small and hidden in a multi-photo montage.
Seems like the Seiko would look much better if the triangles were left of the indices, or even the rectangular parts; and the plastic cutlery-esque hands substituted for something with more thought out lines
I wonder if most people that are concerned with value for money do it out of practical reasons, or because they hate the feeling of overpaying. If it's the latter, I would say just let that concern go. It's not grocery shopping. Even if the watch you like is overpriced, how many times are you buying a watch? If not a lot, that buy what you like. The difference in price won't hurt you. If you buy a lot, then you have enough money to not sweat over the price difference. The only people who should sweat over it, are those who have a hobby they struggle to afford.
I have several Seikos, and several Zelos, for the price I think Zelos are great! San Martin is a nice watch but priced too high! I have a SM Tuna with a miss aligned Minuit track, they told me it probably happened during shipping. I could have sent it back and 2 months latter received it back hopefully fixed. Since the watch is running about 5 seconds fast a day. I didn’t want to mess with the accuracy.
Very informative video!. The San Martin watch shows that the Chinese have really stepped up the game. The rest of the Watch making companies ( Mico & established brands) need to keep looking behind their backs on this continued Chinese assault. Lets face it, owning a watch is not an absolute necessity. Most people now use either a phone or fitness watch; & not a regular watch. The San Martin has EVERYTHING but heritage. I've owned many Swiss mechanicals ( nothing but a headache & $$$ to service). If I want a toy, I can just get a watch like the San Martin. If I have a problem, I dump it & get another. Not sure where this industry is headed, but I see many similarities between it and the Western car industry & how it is dealing with the growing Chinese car industry.
I’m getting a strong Zodiac Super Sea Wolf vibe from the San Martin so I’m not sure I would call it an original design. Great watch for the money though!
I've been mostly buying from micro brands recently, I don't see a reason to buy a big brand watch unless I very specifically want a watch from that brand that I can't find anywhere else. I recently just got myself a horage supersede gmt and it's one of my favorite watches. I'm also looking at the Nevada grenchen f11 which is basically a '70s style Royal oak homage with some nice dial options. I did buy myself a seagull because I really wanted one of their chronographs and the movement is something to behold for sure. My wrist is very irregular and I won't buy watches without micro adjustment anymore. That the San Martin includes such a micro adjustment is pretty incredible to me. I will have to reevaluate them as a brand because to be honest it's kind of sad that so many big brands will sell watches for 10k and not include something is simple as half links much less a proper micro adjustment system.
@JusttheWatch I like their watches but I don't like the pre-order hype cycle that they use. The K2 movement is really a fantastic piece of engineering and I like the new regulator system that they just introduced where you can regulate a watch from outside of the case without any kind of internal electronics. It's a really cool idea to use induction to power a small little board that can control the balance spring.
I have been watching your videos. Congratulations on the great content. As I am begining to build a small watch collection, I face a new challenge: wrist size. I have a size 7.7 inches and I don't feel comfortable wearing a 40mm diameter watch. Please, I need your help finding a versatile Seiko dress watch (42mm/43mm). Like SRPE. Unfortunately, I only found SNKM which doesn't seem to have a great finish (I didn't find many reviews). I really appreciate your help. Kind regards from Brazil.
I've been looking at that Seiko watch for awhile but at that price I would have wanted sapphire glass and an exhibition case back. And of course I'd get a Strapscode bracelet for it immediately after buying.
Sub $250 chinese brands are now fine for me. I've come out of the brainwashing that $1000 is cheap for a swiss made watch when i have bills to pay in real life.
Skill issue.
IRL now I have kids and happily wear the 3 of current generation of Seiko 5.
There are Swiss watches are have true worth for their money that no chinese/Seiko can reproduce, but they are not in the 1000$ range and they are a once in a lifetime purchase. IWC (Portugieser), Omega (Seamaster), Glashuette (Panomatic Lunar) each have one of those under 10K and there's a few from Vacheron Constantin, A. Lange & Sohne, etc. if you really hit the jackpot. Everything else (Tudor, Roles, Patek, Hublot, etc.) is just marketing and brand status, but even that can make some people happy, so I guess, to each their own.
Me also. The Swiss just Legally rob you if you’re brained washed by them.
Nailed it! This sounded a little classist and exaggerated what Seiko has done to their main line of watches since sunsetting the ones that got them where they are (skx for life!). The AliExpress business will steamroll most of the entry level market watches due to a cash grab by others. Why pay 100s more for something that will need a service that cost as much out more when the time comes. Citizen and Casio will be the ones that survive the next generation of watch buyers IMHO
Why is it alright when luxury brands copy each other but frowned at when it’s a micro brand does it.
Yep they do it all the damn time!!
@@stevengreen471 I don't love that either, but at least most big brands have a foundation of original design and technical innovation they built their brand upon. The factory brands just steal popular designs they think will sell. Really hard for me to support that
Totally agree.
Seiko 5 gmt (ssk line) its a clear homage of the Rolex GMT but everyone say its unique and sexy 😂.
If you use an invicta, so you are trying to copy rolex 😂😂.
I dont understand
@@stevengreen471 because we're lazy about noticing who stole from who, so we only notice the more salient copies. Like when a small brand copies a very recognizable model. Also, it's about status. A small brand has to prove it's there to stay and has intrinsic value, and just copying other models won't get you there. Whereas big brands are already established, they don't need to prove to you their value. So if they have a copy here and there, it doesn't do much to their image
So many known brands have a datejust lookalike in their line up.
I have 20 Aliexpress Automatic watches. From cheap Addiesdive to San Martin, the quality of the San Martin is on par with my 'entry level' Swiss watches. Plus they are reasonably priced. Great comparison video
My San Martin SN036 beats my Tissot Gentleman in fit and finish
Good content here. Wise and Zelos with Miyota movements are A+. San Martin is better than most people think.
The best Value Diver is still the Swedish watchbrand Tusenö.
I have the Tudor BB58 and I picked up the SM version sn0008c for comparison. I was shocked to see just how strong the lume is on the SM. I have several watches in my collection and the SM has the best lume by far than any of the others. I have Seiko, CW, Tudor, Omega, Tissot, Casio, Rolex and others and by far the SM beats them all with regards to lume. So Kudos to SM on the superior lume they have applied to their BB series.
You are rich lol
Most micros are made in the same factories as the Chinese watches. For example Erebus is made by San Martin. A micro has to find the best price for quality parts, and at the moment that means China.
There's two categories of micros: one that tries to go for the masses and they compete with the Citizen/Seiko category, and they have to go the China route. The other is for collectors/people who know a bit more about watches, and they start in Europe usually, outsourcing movements locally, or in Switzerland and only parts/case/straps in China (which even luxury brands do by now, by the way). These usually start at the 1000$ mark and go up, there's at least a dozen of them that are really good (mostly German or Nordic brands).
Microbrands are *marketing* companies that outsource the design and manufacturing to contract manufacturers. These manufacturers in turn outsource virtually everything to small workshops in China. They don't have their own factories.
@@mrbrisvegas2 not true. I can name at least 20 microbrands in Europe that produce things in Europe and outside of China.
@@andreidinu7316 You assume they make things in Europe based on the marketing BS. If you bother to search on Google Maps you will discover in most cases the 'factory' is just an office.
Even major Swiss brands outsource their production to China.Then they send the watches to Switzerland to have the movement cased. That is enough to be 'Swiss Made'. Quite a few Swiss bands eg Ball and Claro Semang (movements) are Chinese owned.
@@andreidinu7316 Most of them are 100% online business that don't have a factory.
I feel like brand name and reputation can be a double edged sword. For example when I buy a Seiko these days I'm expecting terrible alignment 😂
And cheap glass and clasps
That's how you know it's legit!
If the QC was good and I bought it online, I'd have to take it to a AD for them to check that it's not a fake 😂
Very true but it's normally mainly present in lower end models. Higher end Seikos are pretty good and very RARE with qc issues
@@captain1167 define higher end models because they still have QC issues in models costing 1k and up.
San martin is killing it.
Cronos cheaper and way better bracelet
My wife recently stumbled upon the tiffany blue Citizen Tsuyosa. I warned her that it might be a little big, but she likes bigger watches, so I bought it for around $300 during the Labor Day sales in the US a couple weeks ago. I've always been a big Citizen fan, but I was super impressed when this watch came in. I don't think you can do much better for $300 from a big brand. She loves it!!
Originality is a big deal to me, so the Chinese factory brands are out. I dabbled in micro brands when I first came to the hobby, but I've also gotten away from those as well. If somebody had $300 to spend and liked the design, I would recommend the Tsuyosa all day long
I absolutely agree. These chinese watches may be unmatched when it comes to specs for money, but I just can't bring myself to spend money on a borderline fake watch with a nonsensical google-translated name on the dial. I absolutely agree on the Citizen Tsuyosa, that thing is a looker! Especially the newer model with the small seconds complication and textured dial. Good call.
China is ur new daddy
I agree with the sentiment totally. But I am happy that San Martin is now making their own designs. I may pull the trigger in the future given their continued success
i have the yellow one tsuyoza great watch for the Price i paid 220.00 on ebay
I think lumping all Chinese brands together is unfair. San Martin is a mediocre name but not all of their watches are blatant copies. Not to mention many big Swiss/japanese brands have many line ups that lack originality entirely
These are all very good points. That MMI is pretty awesome and the introductory price is fantastic. Thanks for the thoughtful comparison!
I was looking at that lovely Seiko, thinking to myself, "Self, this might be a Seiko worth purchasing!" Then I saw the cheap, lazy, pressed clasp, the hollow end links, the unsigned crown, and was turned off.
Don't forget it's only harlex too
@@Tyrone2714 sapphire breaks so different strokes for different folks.
You need a signed crown.,?
Why do you let watch reviewers tell you what you want.?
@@chanslorvalorum6905 No one really needs an automatic watch. A cheap quartz tells time. We collect automatic watches because we like the mechanics and the details. I like a signed crown - it finishes off a watch and it tells me that the manufacturer is paying attention to details and not skimping. For the Seiko price premium, they can give us a signed crown.
I have some of my first watches that are now 50 years old and the mineral crystals are so scratched that I can hardly read them.
@ionlybluffAA my hardlex crystal has 0 scratches after 4 years and I wear it almost daily. People just want something to moan about even if it's a non-issue
I have watches from all categories: Seiko SKS and baby Alpinist, Direnzo and RZE, San Martin, Pagani Design, Sea Gull. I enjoy them all but I am really impressed with the bang-for-buck of the chinese watches, especially San Martin. They also seem to regulate them. As a side note, my seiko alpinist quit working and I had to pay about half the cost of the watch to get it repaired.
That's normal. 6R movements that Seiko uses in Alpinists and many other watches are the worst watch movements in the world. No other serious movement maker in the entire industry makes something as shite as the Seiko 6R. I'm sorry you had to deal with that.
Since the discovery of Chinese manufacturers, and their outstanding build quality, I've gone down the rabbit hole. I used to turn to high value Japanese brands for quality and best bang for the buck. It's now the Chinese brands. I've been a watch collecting nerd since the 1980's. Swiss, Japanese and a few Russian, were dominant purchases. Now it's Chinese offerings. Can't beat their bank for buck ratio. As long as you can stand some of the silly brand naming chosen! ie. Mysterious Code, FeelNever, etc. The Chinese manufacturers really should consider hiring a western consultant.
I recently got the San Martin BB54 and am thoroughly impressed by it. I think the fit and finish is better than the Seiko I recently bought, and it has a Seiko movement. Can't beat it for the price.
Great video. I’ve always liked watches but only recently gotten back into watches. Like everything we purchase, it’s very easy now to do research and compare and contrast different watches. What blew me away was how many very expensive watches used the same exact movements as others that were priced at 1/10th the cost. Even if the design and reputation was better than the Chinese brands, I still had trouble buying something that had a shorter power reserve, or not even have a sapphire crystal. I think that the introduction of the microbrand category and Chinese homage watches have really brought these issues to light. And it makes picking a watch a little more complicated. You can no longer asssume that the $3000 watch is superior to the $300 watch. Glad your video covers these topics.
The only brands names I would currently buy are casio and vostok [vostok recently had a 20% price increase]. All other brands are out of the price range that I am comfortable throwing away money on. That said, I am all aboard on the Ali Express train and buy everything from Skimei to Steeldive to San Martin. I do own a limited edition pro-master but am not in the market for any new brand big brand name products.
I’ve owned multiples in each of these categories. For the less than $300-ish price category a watch like a San Martin is easily going to be the best quality watch. It just comes down to how you feel about the Chinese companies like SM. A lot of their watches are just blatant copies of big brands. And it does give me a little bit of the ick sometimes.
I am fairly new to watch collecting, so this might sound like a dumb question, but why would a company based in China name itself San Martin??
I recently picked up a Baltany Driver 1921 hand wound version and will say that the quality is quite surprising (in a positive way). Finishing and detailing is much better than I would expect for the ~116 USD I paid for it. While not much for originality, I think it’s an excellent watch and wear it regularly.
Ive a few San martins and seikos and you cannot deny that some San Martins pieces are actually better than most seikos produced especially spec wise...Its about time seiko made all there pieces with sapphire and ceramic inserts... Not hardlex and Aluminum....Micro brands are producing some quality pieces nowadays too that MMI Cuttlechron is gorgeous... Great review and good points mentioned....
Interesting comparison. Seiko is surely down on specs, up on brand promise, but another important aspect for some people who want to extend and switch up their collection is that they hold their value better when re-selling. Not as an investment, just to provide additional funds for new watches. I have some Seikos, Citizens and Casios, but also a few Chinese watches with "inspired" designs, good specs but mainly just good looking watches I enjoy wearing.
It has been a while I have seen a Seiko that I like, and I used to like them a lot (especially their SKX line they retired for whatsoever ever reason). Only the micro brands are keeping alive my interest in watches.
Damn, that’s crazy. $575 for hardlex. Seiko is a joke these days. 🤣
seiko are refusing repairs of defective (stuck bezel that doesn't rotate at all any-longer) rotating bezels under warranty claiming that the rotating bezel on a dive watch is just an aesthetic feature and aesthetic defects are not covered under warranty.
so i don't think the tradition and the well established after sales customers service should be considered a plus when thay are using it to scam their customers into paying for repairs while under warranty, at least not for seiko any more.
Agreed. I had to pay £82 to get my bezel working on my £600 turtle padi, while still in warrantee period. Pretty poor show for a watch of that price.
It makes sense when microbrand create something original indeed to ask for a higher price than "Chinese factory" produced watch.
It makes little sounds when micro brand asks twice or three times the money of generic AliExpress watch while the only change is the dial (color, texture)
It is hard to believe what you are telling us about Seiko. I mean a rotating bezel on a dive watch. Is there for a purpose. It is called a timing bezel. For Seiko to actually refuse to repair something like that is ridiculous.
I've given up trying to work it out. I had a Seiko dive watch that I paid about £200 for, and I recently bought the Seiko watch you featured and there's so little difference between the two that I sent it back. Sure, it was a little better build quality but it wasn't 4 times the price better, there wasn't a lot to choose between them and in fact the cheaper one had a sapphire glass.
I think the best thing to do is decide on your budget then just buy something you like the look of. They all do the same job so most of us couldn't care less about the movement.
Love the MMI design and the date display is very original, don't like the color but the blue one in steel looks amazing.
Here’s a fun fact. I got a crappy attitude from somebody at Safeway the other day. I was wearing my SEESTERN Doxa Sub 600T homage. He said that I should’ve “just gotten the original” despite not just having $2,000 to throw around. I then told him that Doxa isn’t even really Swiss anymore. They’re made in China. Blew his tiny little mind.
That guy's a tool. I love watches and I'm always interested in what I see other people wear. I would never tell someone what they "should" have bought.
Source: trust me bro
The Seestern Sub 600T quality rivals and somewhat surpasses the Doxa counterpart. That's why I elected to just buy the Seestern myself. No regrets, I was blown away.
@@nakke3"history" - that's what everyone says 😂
Whats even more mind blowing is that any one who patrons Safeway knows what a Doxa even is, let alone the model
Great commentary, Dave. It's refreshing to hear more discussion of microbrands and unique designs since there's some much coverage of the big brands like Seiko & Casio.
Just ordered my first non Chinese/homage automatic watch. I got a used Sekio Captain Willard SBDC181. A new Willard I dont think is a good value, but a depreciate used one in good condition I felt the price was right.
Nice video. Interesting seeing how much has changed over the last 20 years. Timex has been moving up-market and it's cool seeing some things hit and some miss. Everyone's upping their game
I really love this comparison, not just between brands, but the watch ethos as a whole. It represents what people are looking for and in some ways who they are. Excellent video. Currently looking at the this baby Samurai but the lug-to-lug of the older model is smaller? Really need to try them on
One advantage of major brands is also that often you can find them in your location, you can see them,
try them, put their models side by side to compare.
+ You don't have to pay import tax, custom duties
I like the observation about specs over desirability, that’s so true . I’m a recent ( 18months ) collector / enthusiast and I have a lot of AE watches that I don’t wear , however some of the homages are of good looking watches well executed . Need a clear out .
I used to be a snob about the chinese brands, but after getting one my mindset completely shifted. They're genuinely well made and I've had absolutely zero issues with any of them. As long as it's not a straight 1:1 ripoff, I'll gladly wear it.
Great video, and some excellent points that you made...I will say that I own two San Martins, and absolutely love both of them, despite that they are "knock offs", I've had people give me compliments on both of them.
I mention to folks that only have major swiss brands how they should contract folks like San Martin to be able to develop straps and such for them. They go "whattt???" They really havent taken notice about how much the Chinese have caught up and in some ways surpassed the main brands in terms of cases, finishing, dials and straps etc. Another 5 years and the movements will be hard to beat.
If they stop using seiko mvts at least, my most accurate movement is not my miyotas and oviously not my seikos, its a seagull mvt. That is running cosc in 5 positions when messuring it, and in reality run a bit faster, but still close.
The Swiss have been using Chinese parts since the *1960s*. Many high end high end Swiss brands use Chinese bracelets and dials. The movement is often the only non-Chinese part in a
@@mrbrisvegas2 Indeed. Isn't there a 60% limit or something?
Dive style watches, stainless steel and I can only afford the Chinese homage watches. I haven't found anything to compare favorably in cost no matter the heritage or history. All "major" brands have priced themselves out of my league.
Really interesting video Dave, thanks. It's good to see the bigger channels giving San Martin and other Chinese watches the credit they deserve. I've been saying for quite a while now that San Martin especially are right up there in terms of build quality and finishing. There's a reason that microbrands and even some of the big brands use them to produce their watches. As you said, they offer fantastic value for money too.
For me personally, I just don't see the value when it comes to the likes of Seiko now. Their prices keep going up, but then, as you said you still have things like, hardlex and pressed clasps etc. You also hear lots of stories of misaligned bezels too. So--much-so, that it's become somewhat of a joke now. This is why I have quite a few Seiko homages, but only one actual Seiko... The 'Black Russian' Cocktail Time. They make great looking dials, but the rest of the watch tends to let it down... Especially when Chinese brands and microbrands are using the same movements, but in a better overall package.
My $75 Ali Pagani Explorer II homage is now over a year old and is currently +4 seconds a day.
Which is accurate enough for me.
Clomage
@@NCSheriff7nobody cares about ip theft except boomers
@@NCSheriff7 It's an attractive watch keeping good time (fit for purpose) and at an excellent price reflective of the manufacturing costs in todays CNC world of making such devices. You have a problem with any of that?
@@percussion44 I have a problem with calling copycats and aliexpress ripoffs "homages". its a litte bit ridiculous. none problem of buying them and wearing them. Or you think "Pagani Design" is paying Homage to the Omega Speedmaster Apollo 8 with their Pagani Design 1779. but well it has established itself as a word, but rather only among the “homage” customers
@@NCSheriff7 If I understand you correctly, do I think "homage" is Pagani's intent in making watches like 1779? Not at all. Like Jody said, "Pagani's design dept. is a photocopier and a Rolex catalog".
Do I care what a bunch of rich douche/snobs selling overpriced stuff to other rich douche/snobs think of that? No I do not. If some dude with a 12K Rolex Explorer II see's some average Joe wearing a near identical looking $200 Chinese "homage" and feels a little less special about himself...good.
Just bought a Chinese seamaster clone with the Chinese PT5000 movement. I will get to experience the Chinese watch scene in it's entirety. Hopefully all goes well!
To truly evaluate what makes a watch "the best," we first need to define the term. At the budget end of the market, most mechanical watches are very similar, whether they feature mass-market movements or in-house alternatives. Brands like Seiko or Miyota produce movements that, in performance, are nearly indistinguishable from many in-house offerings. This is because the natural limitations of mechanical watches-such as functionality, accuracy, and durability-restrict how much they can really differ. As a result, when buying a mechanical watch in this price range, you're often safe choosing whichever design you like, as reputable brands produce watches that are largely comparable.
However, if you're looking for true functionality and modern capability, it might be time to embrace the future and opt for a smartwatch, which offers features far beyond what traditional mechanical watches can provide.
great video! My first priority is indeed the design of a watch. I have a Lorier with a chinese movement and a hesalite which other people would not buy for that reason, but I love its design!
Excellent video summarizing these three worlds of watchmaking and the pros and cons of each. 👏👏👏. I have some major brand representation in my collection with an emphasis on trusted microbrands who have proven themselves over 5-10 years with solid design, quality, customer service and support, and resale value. Haven’t yet ventured into the Chinese brands but San Martin, in particular, has really impressed recently.
Great video. I really appreciate how you get into the background.
I have a Seiko Samurai v1 Save the Ocean--it was the first 'nice' watch I bought. It is kind of a chonky boy, but I love it. If it were the same size as the new Samurai, it would be ideal, but considering I got it for ~$320, I have zero complaints.
I love Farer watches. So much color.
The fit and finish on that San Martin is incredible. I only own one San Martin and it happens to be the one your showing and I'm still speechless every time I look at it. Can't believe what you get for the money. Unfortunately when I play poker and people ask what it is because it does draw attention , I'm not proud to tell them what it is. So just because of that I don't wear it , I wear one of my micro's . My favorite right now is DuFrane.
In the same vein as Seiko build quality but a bit less common in the US is Orient. I have a few that have been bulletproof and look great!
I'm more of a micro or micro with a retro look brought back kind of guy.
I do have quite a few citizens and I'm only really interested in the Chinese brands if it's an original design.
Great vid, thanks for the upload 👍
The only thing I need from SEIKO in my little watch world, are their movements. Sorry, Dave 🤷♂
Excellent design innovation by MMI. Personally I'm not one for dive watches but if this is an example of their design chops I'll be very interested to see what else they can produce. Interesting choice to put a leather strap on a dive watch though. Side note: Massive flood of nostalgia watching your opening to the video. I recognized the Japanese architecture immediately, having spent half my life there, and still being the proud owner of a house with a beautiful washitsu like that. :)
Great video; being new into watch collecting it was informative and I enjoy an honest, critical review of the three specimens! Well done!
Anybody count how many times Dave says "brand" thruout this video? 😂😂😂😂😂. Always a pleasure watching your video mate. Keep up the good work
For me, along with Jody, the best reviewer out there. Love the style, knowledge and opinion. Thank you
Many Microbrands and some Seiko models are produced in China .
Seiko is here in Germany a middle end company , you can buy it in department stores.(Grand Seiko is a different thing)
In this price range Citizen offer better value for money.(major brand)
Im now some years in the microbrand universe and many microbrands are offering more for money.(good price value)
My Aliexpress delivery experience is so far very good. Delivery time… a few days To Australia 🇦🇺. I suspect they have got stock in warehouses here already. At least the major brands like San Martin Seestern and Addiesdive. My experience with Micro brands is the opposite. I can see on my tracking that they left the factory quite fast but they get stuck in customs for long periods of time. Not sure why…Japanese brands are the most predictable either from Japan 🇯🇵 ( with expensive delivery charges) are 7/days from Singapore 🇸🇬 3-4 days free delivery. Or gray market dealers in Australia 2-3 days delivery free.
The best value Seiko watches are Seiko solar ones.
Hell no
I have their Speedtimer, but to be honest San Martin and the likes are the best value for me.
Wrong, they are the worst value. 750 euros for a quartz plastic mov. Oh, and they are rising prices too.
Got my 38mm solar prospex diver for 400 euros at a AD, been wearing it for close to 2 years now, got 9 other watches, also more pricey ones. But my solar what I wear most the time and would 100% be what I kept if only could have one watch, they are slept on.
My last few watches have been from San Martin and Cronos. Not only is the quality quite remarkable, but I've had email conversations with real humans about my purchases - I buy direct - something that would never happen with companies like Seiko. And the fact that Seiko still use things like pin-&-collar adjustment on the bracelet is just pathetic. I buy a San Martin and I get very high quality screw-pins, on-the-fly adjustment etc. Lastly, the whole thing about copying others' designs - I really don't care. Every brand copies every other brand; even the original Rolex Submariner was based on a rival's design. Major brands are getting sloppy on features and quality, and their prices are starting to look very poor value.
Dave still has the best intro of any watch channel
I like that San Martin actually trying to step away from cloning. However, during the lume battle you do notice that the 6 o’clock position is missing and it looks odd. Lastly, I don’t mind the logo, I actually like it.
It's not missing it the date window ;)
Definitely leaning more towards the micro brands. Thanks for the comparison. It was good food for thought.
I had numerous Seikos, great watches. Now I own one Seiko, one Orient, three Glycines and 11 Chineses with Seiko movements. All great affordables watches under 250$ each most of the Chineses around 100$. I prefer having 16 watches to choose from rather than have one or two more expensive. Since we send all our productions to China, they now know the technologies and they are catching up with us, their quality is getting better and better and they have an excellent price/quality ratio, like solid Stainless steel, Saphire crystals and Seiko movements. I recommand them!
How do I go about these Chinese watches with those specs?
any watches and links you would recommend?
San martin
San Martin being one of the "premium" factory brands actually puts in the effort for decent lume on most of their watches; some of them have been as good or better than some Seikos I've seen.
My favorite micro-brand is from a Florida-based company, Aragon. It's called the Divemaster 42 (A199BLK), a 200M automatic with lumed ceramic bezel, gloss black enamel dial with lumed applied indices, orange-colored and lumed minute and second hands, day/date (NH36A), blued/branded counter-weight, and S.S. case with exhibition caseback. The size is perfect for my 8in wrist. The design...unique and practical. I really like this particular watch.
Aragon is the successor to Android, which sold the name to another company (forgot the name of that buyer). In any event, I do own a few Androids...automatics with polished Tungsten case, bezel, crown, and bracelet. Coupled with a sapphire crystal...each is about 15 years old and not one has a scratch. They weigh a lot, but they are also extremely durable.
The shaping of the new Samurai is definitely an improvement on the old tempting me to take mine down to the grinder in my workshop
Terrific review Dave! Lots of great facts about each! Keep up the great work!
😮🎉 micro brands have the creative mood that people may ask ohhh whats that ?? 😁 🎉
Seiko and Grand Seiko Collector ❤
I guess everyone has their preferences. In the case of the San Martin here I like the date design and location and I have no problem with the San Martin logo. But then I am strange as I love the Orient logo even though many watch enthusiasts hate it.
This is a great video Dave and I think you fill a niche in the market. You fill it very well and you made an interesting comment about manufacturing. Has there been any analysis about Chinese manufacturing and what parts are used in other nation’s manufacturing? Japan is probably not in the mix but Swiss, German, French and UK timepieces generally have Chinese content though it is not easy to determine the ‘percentage’.
Using "the capital employed" measure AKA "bang for your buck" then it is Aliexpress watches all the way.
Just make sure they have a stainless case, solid end links and a milled clasp and you will not go too far wrong IMHO.
I have a nice collection of Addiesdive, Watchdives and Pagani Design watches and I am completely satisfied with them.
Brilliant video. I own watches in all these categories and have absolutely enjoyed experiencing them. Cheers.
I recently got a BOLDR Venture. Great lil field watch 👍
I am a major brand guy but I have been very tempted by the micro brands and their specks and flashy dials. I ended up not buying the micro brands because I kept asking myself when would I wear that watch.
happy with my san martin sn0121t👍🏻
Very interesting topic . Well done Dave. As a microbrand creator since 2011, I appreciate the 3 watches you show here . The production quantities and design for these watches are very different . With my experience , microbrands are going all directions from horrible to beautiful.
However deciding if this is a beautiful watch or not a beautiful watch basically the majority of people looking at watches are inspired by the homage in by everything of the past and probably there they do like what looks like a vintage or an old specific watch that has made the story at the time
But with a microbrand for my own experience having something completely different and unique modern and functional with ideas that are out of the box I do think this is where microbrand can hit the Mark and managed to get some customers
Regarding the Chinese brand it is very interesting to see that they take a lot of queue from every microbrands client working with them to make and produce their own watches. As it is for microbrands so difficult to protect the watches with a specific pattern in order for the Chinese not to be able to copy them this is so expensive that a basically we leave the factory that did the watch for us with the usage of what we asked them to do
This is why I use a lot of different factories I don't want to mix all of these factories together in one big factory taking all my order in order to be protected again all the different things I do in my watches
That's some really interesting insight Michael! Thanks for sharing a bit about what goes on behind the scenes in creating a microbrand watch!
in the end just buy what you like, it always comes down to personal taste, all the watches here use either a NH or Miyota movement so there isn't much difference in the movement quality except for the high beat with the Miyota. SO pick what you like in the end its you who uses the watch to tell the time you will look at it 99.9% of the time.
The Pagani Design Rolex Daytona Homage at a much lower price, is no less premium than San Martin (Finishing and Bracelet).
You should really check out Lorier. Microbrand led by a husband and wife team who are former school teachers with a passion for vintage inspired watches. Outstanding quality and value. Originally based out of Texas but now operate out of NYC. I own their Neptune and it easily outshines MANY major brands.
I just want to second this. I am really a huge fan of their work. I love old designs but am never likely to buy a watch from the 1950s etc. their watches are a nice reinterpretation of many of those designs rather than a copy of just one. I own a couple of their watches and will be buying a couple more once they are back in stock. The specs won’t be for everyone, but for me they really scratch that itch for mid-century modern classic looks.
This video is off the mark for sure. All these brands or manufacturers coming into the make means that there is a watch for everyone's budget and style. It forces every brand to offer better value. Sure established brands can rely on their name for now but Lorier, Monta and Christopher Ward are becoming established over a short time because of their designs, specifications etc. There is nothing wrong with that. So wear what you love.
Proxima was making this date display four years ago! The bronze finish reminds me of them too...I wonder if they're building these for MMI?
That San Martin is just chef's kiss.
Well, the nh movements are amazing. Today when wearing a high value watch you my be attacked or even killed. Im way more confident and happy with a good quality aliexpress brand. High specs and strong.
I really like that Seiko. Just a great looking watch. But hardlex and a pressed clasp on a $600 watch? Come on, Seiko. I own that avocado San Martin watch. And just used it at the beach on vacation. Really striking design, and held up very well. I totally disagree about the matching color date wheel. I think it elevates the design.
nothing beats the bang for the buck from the San Martins, the fit and finish is amazing
Sugess is excellent. I have two great watches from them
Biggest let down on Seiko etc is the clasp. For an extra 20 cents they could give 5 or 6 micro adjust. For another 50 cents they could give a divers extension.
If you were talking about quartz watches then I would whole-heartedly recommend the Chinese-factory brands. The only thing to be careful of is the photographs they use on Aliexpress as they do not always give the full picture. I recently bought a day-date homage which looked good in the photos but actually had a bezel that was far too thick and completely spoiled the watch. It turned out that there was one single photo that properly showed the watch, all the others had been photoshopped to disguise the bezel. The one honest picture was very small and hidden in a multi-photo montage.
I have Seiko then tried San Martin, man I'm impressed
love your new introduction, ave
Seems like the Seiko would look much better if the triangles were left of the indices, or even the rectangular parts; and the plastic cutlery-esque hands substituted for something with more thought out lines
I wonder if most people that are concerned with value for money do it out of practical reasons, or because they hate the feeling of overpaying. If it's the latter, I would say just let that concern go. It's not grocery shopping. Even if the watch you like is overpriced, how many times are you buying a watch? If not a lot, that buy what you like. The difference in price won't hurt you. If you buy a lot, then you have enough money to not sweat over the price difference. The only people who should sweat over it, are those who have a hobby they struggle to afford.
I have several Seikos, and several Zelos, for the price I think Zelos are great! San Martin is a nice watch but priced too high! I have a SM Tuna with a miss aligned Minuit track, they told me it probably happened during shipping. I could have sent it back and 2 months latter received it back hopefully fixed. Since the watch is running about 5 seconds fast a day. I didn’t want to mess with the accuracy.
I collect only Seiko watches. Pitty Seiko made this Samurai too small. Seiko Samurai is one of the best watches money can buy.
Loving The Midnight background
Very informative video!.
The San Martin watch shows that the Chinese have really stepped up the game. The rest of the Watch making companies ( Mico & established brands) need to keep looking behind their backs on this continued Chinese assault.
Lets face it, owning a watch is not an absolute necessity. Most people now use either a phone or fitness watch; & not a regular watch.
The San Martin has EVERYTHING but heritage. I've owned many Swiss mechanicals ( nothing but a headache & $$$ to service). If I want a toy, I can just get a watch like the San Martin. If I have a problem, I dump it & get another.
Not sure where this industry is headed, but I see many similarities between it and the Western car industry & how it is dealing with the growing Chinese car industry.
Best value and highest quality (aside from movement) San Martin.
I’m getting a strong Zodiac Super Sea Wolf vibe from the San Martin so I’m not sure I would call it an original design. Great watch for the money though!
Well, both watches are skindivers. Other than that, don't see them very similar
And the bezel reminds me on the Fifty Fathoms
Every watch draws inspiration from some watch or another.
I've been mostly buying from micro brands recently, I don't see a reason to buy a big brand watch unless I very specifically want a watch from that brand that I can't find anywhere else. I recently just got myself a horage supersede gmt and it's one of my favorite watches. I'm also looking at the Nevada grenchen f11 which is basically a '70s style Royal oak homage with some nice dial options. I did buy myself a seagull because I really wanted one of their chronographs and the movement is something to behold for sure. My wrist is very irregular and I won't buy watches without micro adjustment anymore. That the San Martin includes such a micro adjustment is pretty incredible to me. I will have to reevaluate them as a brand because to be honest it's kind of sad that so many big brands will sell watches for 10k and not include something is simple as half links much less a proper micro adjustment system.
I've been curious about Horage for awhile,.seems like a really interesting brand that offers some good value.
@JusttheWatch I like their watches but I don't like the pre-order hype cycle that they use. The K2 movement is really a fantastic piece of engineering and I like the new regulator system that they just introduced where you can regulate a watch from outside of the case without any kind of internal electronics. It's a really cool idea to use induction to power a small little board that can control the balance spring.
Cute how the MMI date marker is also lumed to start with.
I have been watching your videos. Congratulations on the great content.
As I am begining to build a small watch collection, I face a new challenge: wrist size.
I have a size 7.7 inches and I don't feel comfortable wearing a 40mm diameter watch.
Please, I need your help finding a versatile Seiko dress watch (42mm/43mm). Like SRPE.
Unfortunately, I only found SNKM which doesn't seem to have a great finish (I didn't find many reviews).
I really appreciate your help.
Kind regards from Brazil.
👍👍👍 Nice Watch and Elegant Watch introduce by Watch Expert - Dave JUST THE WATCH 👍👍👍
I've been looking at that Seiko watch for awhile but at that price I would have wanted sapphire glass and an exhibition case back. And of course I'd get a Strapscode bracelet for it immediately after buying.
All good watches but the mmi is the star of the show,very interesting look and good specs .