The place is not the problem. The bible talks about several places that the dead go to. Both good and bad. The problem is the idea that God will be torturing someone for eternity. Only a demented person would serve a God like that. The judgment of God should be viewed as a good thing for the individual no matter how terrifying that judgment might be. Whatever it is, however long it may be, or how it's done: its being done by a God who loves that individual.
In a way the punitive ECT theology makes it impossible to have a truly healthy relationship with God. The unimaginable threat of eternal torture warps your ability to see God as a loving father. In the best case it leads to neurotic self-hatred, relentless motivation, and/or extreme asceticism which can, with difficulty, be functionally integrated as many medieval saints did. In the worst case it leads to crippling OCD (Martin Luther), rebellious apostasy (any Hitchens-type atheist) or despair (Jonathan Edwards' uncle, who committed suicide after hearing Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God). Perfect love is supposed to cast out fear, therefore if there's any fear it's not yet a perfect love. There's a difference between a healthy respect and trembling before God's might vs a true terror as if God was a monster out to get you. St Therese of Liseux understood all of this to a T. I see your pfp is Catholic, let's pray the Church comes to better understand her teachings on Hell and judgement so people can be freed from this debilitating framework of Hell
@@jackolyte I think that in the Latin west it was popular piety that became the force that led hell fire torture to become a Catechetical tradition. In the East we Byzantines have never had a divine accountant in heaven looking down upon our every misdeed. We don't even teach purgatory. Most of us turn to St. Issac the Syrian who describes God as being hell. God is a consuming fire of love, for the saint this is bliss but for the sinner it is torment
@@AnthoniePerez-xe4ihI could easily say that you are thinking for the Bible. In doing that you are thinking with a tradition of interpretation. The question then becomes is it "gods" interpretation or your own? We can't escape our predisposed notion of how we think God is. However, logic demands that if there is a God that it would be the source of all that is good. Putting someone in a frying pan for all eternity because they have angered you is the action of an irrational God. The response to that is usually "god's justice is equal to his mercy" or something like that. That's like a father knocking his kids teeth out and then giving him a hug.
@@byzantinedeaconI've run up against the same horrified accusations of heresy from orthodoxers as with Catholics and protestants when I raise universalism. Christians of all stripes are held hostage by a strange savage god, united against the gospel of faith in the total victory of Christ.
I like a story of purgation and repentence, and the belly of the fish imagery in Jonah is a good fit, per se. I reread Jonah for my morning lectio because I watched this clip. In the story as written, Jonah doesn't have a change of hear after coming out of the fish, so the story isn't using the fish part as an image of transformation. We can use it that way, I just find it interesting that the story doesn't show is Jonah repenting. It actually seems to end at the moment of his decision. Maybe that was a deliberate dramatic move by the storyteller.
Yea, he makes his sacrifice but still needs to learn mercy. To look on his enemy with a pitying compassionate eye. A great parabolic teaching that of course foreshadows Christ.
There is an arminian christian who uploads in youtube he believe many christians and many people are in hell fire now burning in hell fire thats his belief and he upload on youtube that many people are in hell fire burning what is your response in this isue? An Arminian christians who believe that many people today are in hell fire burning in eternal hell fire or endless torment or eternal hell fire
@@benc6537There is an arminian christian who uploads in youtube he believe many christians and many people are in hell fire now burning in hell fire thats his belief and he upload on youtube that many people are in hell fire burning what is your response in this isue? An Arminian christians who believe that many people today are in hell fire burning in eternal hell fire or endless torment or eternal hell fire
There is an arminian christian who uploads in youtube he believe many christians and many people are in hell fire now burning in hell fire thats his belief and he upload on youtube that many people are in hell fire burning what is your response in this isue? An Arminian christians who believe that many people today are in hell fire burning in eternal hell fire or endless torment or eternal hell fire
There is an arminian christian who uploads in youtube he believe many christians and many people are in hell fire now burning in hell fire thats his belief and he upload on youtube that many people are in hell fire burning what is your response in this isue? An Arminian christians who believe that many people today are in hell fire burning in eternal hell fire or endless torment or eternal hell fire
Amen. " You will ALL be salted with fire". The process of looking in a mirror, it may in bible James ?, be called " mirror or law of liberty". Repenting, recuperate, recover wounds, learn to love. All, hardship all, "hell" ?
There is an arminian christian who uploads in youtube he believe many christians and many people are in hell fire now burning in hell fire thats his belief and he upload on youtube that many people are in hell fire burning what is your response in this isue? An Arminian christians who believe that many people today are in hell fire burning in eternal hell fire or endless torment or eternal hell fire
There is an arminian christian who uploads in youtube he believe many christians and many people are in hell fire now burning in hell fire thats his belief and he upload on youtube that many people are in hell fire burning what is your response in this isue? An Arminian christians who believe that many people today are in hell fire burning in eternal hell fire or endless torment or eternal hell fire
There is an arminian christian who uploads in youtube he believe many christians and many people are in hell fire now burning in hell fire thats his belief and he upload on youtube that many people are in hell fire burning what is your response in this isue? An Arminian christians who believe that many people today are in hell fire burning in eternal hell fire or endless torment or eternal hell fire
I can imagine that no human being is able to live entirely without stories, be they fictional or real stories, at any rate man seems to be a born storyteller, with the necessary skills and a necessary dose of imagination. And God's gift to the people of this world seems to be a particularly strong imagination, to tell the most diverse stories from different perspectives and especially to lose himself/herself in speculation. Especially theologically-minded people are able to see and appreciate this when they alone perceive the incredible textual history of the individual layers and writings of the Bible! You have set my feet on large place - הֶֽעֱמַ֖דְתָּ בַמֶּרְחָ֣ב רַגְלָֽי - said once Psalm 31:8, and I understand this as God's great freedom to trust and follow the imagination of the heart. And that's exactly what Ms. Heather Hamilton does, and I listen to her with great interest and an open mind and say AMEN to her. Kind regards from Germany with love & respect!
Symbolically it does appear to be a death-rebirth cycle, similar imagery to the death and resurrection of Christ, and also the submersion and "rebirth" encountered in baptism. I'd recommend Bruno Bettelheim's book The Uses of Enchantment for an analysis of this "being eaten" symbol in fairytales, because it crops up quite a lot throughout different stories.
@@trappedcat3615 It could well be both. Good stories have multiple meanings and interpretations that are equally valid. The symbol of being eaten often coincides with "journey to the underworld" stories that you can find in all sorts of mythologies, from ancient Greek to Chinese. It reminds me of Joseph Campbell's monomyth theory and Dan Harmon's Story Circle.
@@Crime_MimePlato and Socrates talked about the underworld. Socrates had “recollection of memories.” Which makes sense because they could be referring to Hades.
If you think he died in the whale because logically he wouldn't have been able to breathe, I think your taking the story in the wrong way. It's fiction written to make a moral point. If the story implies that he survived 3 days, that's the story, we're supposed to suspend our disbelief and take the story as a story. If you like, you can imagine God sustaining him or that the whale is huge inside like in the Disney Pinocchio; that part is not essential to what the authour means by the story.
Powerful testimony
The place is not the problem. The bible talks about several places that the dead go to. Both good and bad. The problem is the idea that God will be torturing someone for eternity. Only a demented person would serve a God like that. The judgment of God should be viewed as a good thing for the individual no matter how terrifying that judgment might be. Whatever it is, however long it may be, or how it's done: its being done by a God who loves that individual.
In a way the punitive ECT theology makes it impossible to have a truly healthy relationship with God. The unimaginable threat of eternal torture warps your ability to see God as a loving father. In the best case it leads to neurotic self-hatred, relentless motivation, and/or extreme asceticism which can, with difficulty, be functionally integrated as many medieval saints did. In the worst case it leads to crippling OCD (Martin Luther), rebellious apostasy (any Hitchens-type atheist) or despair (Jonathan Edwards' uncle, who committed suicide after hearing Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God). Perfect love is supposed to cast out fear, therefore if there's any fear it's not yet a perfect love. There's a difference between a healthy respect and trembling before God's might vs a true terror as if God was a monster out to get you. St Therese of Liseux understood all of this to a T.
I see your pfp is Catholic, let's pray the Church comes to better understand her teachings on Hell and judgement so people can be freed from this debilitating framework of Hell
@@jackolyte I think that in the Latin west it was popular piety that became the force that led hell fire torture to become a Catechetical tradition. In the East we Byzantines have never had a divine accountant in heaven looking down upon our every misdeed. We don't even teach purgatory. Most of us turn to St. Issac the Syrian who describes God as being hell. God is a consuming fire of love, for the saint this is bliss but for the sinner it is torment
So most Christians throughout history were and are demented? Don't be so strict on people who have not arrived to your level of thinking.
@@AnthoniePerez-xe4ihI could easily say that you are thinking for the Bible. In doing that you are thinking with a tradition of interpretation. The question then becomes is it "gods" interpretation or your own? We can't escape our predisposed notion of how we think God is. However, logic demands that if there is a God that it would be the source of all that is good. Putting someone in a frying pan for all eternity because they have angered you is the action of an irrational God. The response to that is usually "god's justice is equal to his mercy" or something like that. That's like a father knocking his kids teeth out and then giving him a hug.
@@byzantinedeaconI've run up against the same horrified accusations of heresy from orthodoxers as with Catholics and protestants when I raise universalism. Christians of all stripes are held hostage by a strange savage god, united against the gospel of faith in the total victory of Christ.
Outstanding!
I like a story of purgation and repentence, and the belly of the fish imagery in Jonah is a good fit, per se.
I reread Jonah for my morning lectio because I watched this clip.
In the story as written, Jonah doesn't have a change of hear after coming out of the fish, so the story isn't using the fish part as an image of transformation. We can use it that way, I just find it interesting that the story doesn't show is Jonah repenting. It actually seems to end at the moment of his decision. Maybe that was a deliberate dramatic move by the storyteller.
Yea, he makes his sacrifice but still needs to learn mercy. To look on his enemy with a pitying compassionate eye. A great parabolic teaching that of course foreshadows Christ.
There is an arminian christian who uploads in youtube he believe many christians and many people are in hell fire now burning in hell fire thats his belief and he upload on youtube that many people are in hell fire burning what is your response in this isue? An Arminian christians who believe that many people today are in hell fire burning in eternal hell fire or endless torment or eternal hell fire
@@benc6537There is an arminian christian who uploads in youtube he believe many christians and many people are in hell fire now burning in hell fire thats his belief and he upload on youtube that many people are in hell fire burning what is your response in this isue? An Arminian christians who believe that many people today are in hell fire burning in eternal hell fire or endless torment or eternal hell fire
Really helpful. Thanks.
There is an arminian christian who uploads in youtube he believe many christians and many people are in hell fire now burning in hell fire thats his belief and he upload on youtube that many people are in hell fire burning what is your response in this isue? An Arminian christians who believe that many people today are in hell fire burning in eternal hell fire or endless torment or eternal hell fire
So profound ❤
There is an arminian christian who uploads in youtube he believe many christians and many people are in hell fire now burning in hell fire thats his belief and he upload on youtube that many people are in hell fire burning what is your response in this isue? An Arminian christians who believe that many people today are in hell fire burning in eternal hell fire or endless torment or eternal hell fire
Amen. " You will ALL be salted with fire". The process of looking in a mirror, it may in bible James ?, be called " mirror or law of liberty". Repenting, recuperate, recover wounds, learn to love. All, hardship all, "hell" ?
There is an arminian christian who uploads in youtube he believe many christians and many people are in hell fire now burning in hell fire thats his belief and he upload on youtube that many people are in hell fire burning what is your response in this isue? An Arminian christians who believe that many people today are in hell fire burning in eternal hell fire or endless torment or eternal hell fire
There is an arminian christian who uploads in youtube he believe many christians and many people are in hell fire now burning in hell fire thats his belief and he upload on youtube that many people are in hell fire burning what is your response in this isue? An Arminian christians who believe that many people today are in hell fire burning in eternal hell fire or endless torment or eternal hell fire
An interesting take on the subject. John 15:6 is all anyone really needs to know about hell.
There is an arminian christian who uploads in youtube he believe many christians and many people are in hell fire now burning in hell fire thats his belief and he upload on youtube that many people are in hell fire burning what is your response in this isue? An Arminian christians who believe that many people today are in hell fire burning in eternal hell fire or endless torment or eternal hell fire
I can imagine that no human being is able to live entirely without stories, be they fictional or real stories, at any rate man seems to be a born storyteller, with the necessary skills and a necessary dose of imagination.
And God's gift to the people of this world seems to be a particularly strong imagination, to tell the most diverse stories from different perspectives and especially to lose himself/herself in speculation.
Especially theologically-minded people are able to see and appreciate this when they alone perceive the incredible textual history of the individual layers and writings of the Bible!
You have set my feet on large place - הֶֽעֱמַ֖דְתָּ בַמֶּרְחָ֣ב רַגְלָֽי - said once Psalm 31:8, and I understand this as God's great freedom to trust and follow the imagination of the heart.
And that's exactly what Ms. Heather Hamilton does, and I listen to her with great interest and an open mind and say AMEN to her. Kind regards from Germany with love & respect!
I don't think the whale was hell. Jonah died and probably was in sheol. It's not likely he was breathing for 3 days underwater inside a whale.
Symbolically it does appear to be a death-rebirth cycle, similar imagery to the death and resurrection of Christ, and also the submersion and "rebirth" encountered in baptism. I'd recommend Bruno Bettelheim's book The Uses of Enchantment for an analysis of this "being eaten" symbol in fairytales, because it crops up quite a lot throughout different stories.
@@Crime_Mime That is interesting. I've heard it said that Ninevah repented because they believed God saved Jonah.
@@trappedcat3615 It could well be both. Good stories have multiple meanings and interpretations that are equally valid. The symbol of being eaten often coincides with "journey to the underworld" stories that you can find in all sorts of mythologies, from ancient Greek to Chinese. It reminds me of Joseph Campbell's monomyth theory and Dan Harmon's Story Circle.
@@Crime_MimePlato and Socrates talked about the underworld. Socrates had “recollection of memories.” Which makes sense because they could be referring to Hades.
If you think he died in the whale because logically he wouldn't have been able to breathe, I think your taking the story in the wrong way. It's fiction written to make a moral point. If the story implies that he survived 3 days, that's the story, we're supposed to suspend our disbelief and take the story as a story. If you like, you can imagine God sustaining him or that the whale is huge inside like in the Disney Pinocchio; that part is not essential to what the authour means by the story.