It's not about you, it's about the Church. Universalism is Mystery Babylon the Mother of Harlots. Wake up and shake off this soul destroying and blasphemous delusion
The Universalism that Origen taught where everybody even Satan will be redeemed, is the Creed of the Church of Antichrist that delusional Ecumenists everywhere are building, namely Mystery Babylon, the Mother of Harlots
Origen is the litmus test of orthobroism. Look how they demand from everyone, “you must condemn Origen or you are ANATHEMA!” They throw this around Abp. Alexander Golitzin videos because he, a gentleman and scholar like Apr. John Behr, likewise appreciates the First Christian Philosopher.
Orthobros can’t abide scholarship that controversy their fundamentalist ideas about the Church, that she never faces quandaries, that scholars and saints disagree sometimes, that a council might have got something wrong. Bros depend on an authoritarian structure where The Church Owns All Knowledge And All Wisdom Without Error Ever and Never Ever Changes Anything.
St. Basil seems to have had a rather low opinion of Origen's soundness on the Trinity. He says in chapter 29 of "On the Holy Spirit": "The opinions which he held concerning the Spirit were not always and everywhere sound; nevertheless in many passages even he himself reverently recognises the force of established usage, and expresses himself concerning the Spirit in terms consistent with true religion. It is, if I am not mistaken, in the Sixth Book of his Commentary on the Gospel of St. John that he distinctly makes the Spirit an object of worship....Thus I apprehend, the powerful influence of tradition frequently impels men to express themselves in terms contradictory to their own opinions."
That’s not what i’ve read: In his exegesis Basil was an admirer of Origen and the need for the spiritual interpretation of Scripture. In his work on the Holy Spirit, he asserts that "to take the literal sense and stop there, is to have the heart covered by the veil of Jewish literalism. Lamps are useless when the sun is shining." He frequently stresses the need for Reserve in doctrinal and sacramental matters. At the same time he was against the wild allegories of some contemporaries. Concerning this, he wrote: "I know the laws of allegory, though less by myself than from the works of others. There are those, truly, who do not admit the common sense of the Scriptures, for whom water is not water, but some other nature, who see in a plant, in a fish, what their fancy wishes, who change the nature of reptiles and of wild beasts to suit their allegories, like the interpreters of dreams who explain visions in sleep to make them serve their own end." -Hexameron, 9.1
@@LoveUnrelentingquestion so everyone go to hevan what about peaple who don't believe in jusus or Bible like atheist also what about peaple who live in sin like murders or rapist do they go to hevan can you explain what universalism believe/doctrine?
@@LoveUnrelenting so everyone go to hevan so what about peaple who don't believe in bible or jusus like atheist or peaple who live in sins liker murders or rapists can go to hevans can you explain unvistlist believe/doctrine?
I don't think any discussion of Origen is complete without mentioning that he apparently castrated himself. This hatred of the body, originating with Plato, is a curse of the Western worldview which is still having its dire effects. Original sin, fall - redemption, reward - punishment, heaven - hell. These are all constructs of a world of the distant past, which we ought to move on from. Either Christianity is about love, or it is about judgement and punishment. It can't be both.
We do not have to mention this about Origen. You characterize it as hating his body. You do not need to characterize it in this way. Perhaps we should also mention how theologians who shave their faces or their heads hate their bodies. Or maybe we shouldn't listen to overweight theologians who also must hate their bodies.
Wanna have your mind blown? The story of someone hearing Matthew 19:12 and castrating themselves is falsely attributed to Origen was in fact originally done by a pair of renegade Egyptian monks. They were excommunicated by the Patriarch of Alexandria. It was upheld by the Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Pope. It’s a story told in “The sayings of the desert fathers” compiled by St Palladius.
Origen made some good defenses of the faith, however destruction is the most biblical view. You put more weight in the early church fathers than the actual bible. You are in error sir
Origen is the greatest theologian of all time, (personal opinion). Respected by and heavily influenced Gregory of Nyssa: The Father of Fathers. We, arguably, would not have the nicean creed if not for the Cappadocian father's, all of which were of one mind with Origen. He is the first Theologian of the Church, outside of John the beloved and Paul the apostle. A true"man of God" who defended the church against heresy from within and without. Origen loved the church and Scripture, able to read it in every ancient language. John Behr is 100% correct. Informed, educated and articulate. I wish more Christians in the West would study church history. Maybe our history could help unify us all.
@shokannon1806 Origen, Gregory of Nyssa and Clement are the only universalists. You can quote any church father you want, but, the bible does not describe universalism- just a cursory view would put annihilation as the most biblical view. Universalism is a conscience comforter, but falls short of biblical support.
@@TruthfromBibleMinistry Annihilation is, on the surface, a more comforting version of our afterlife. In comparison to eternal conscience torment. Only superficially. It doesn't fit with God's character, as revealed in the person of Christ. In Christ's revelation of the GodHead. Ultimate reconciliation fits the overall narrative of scripture. Is more consistent with the totality of scripture. The story of God's relationship is one of destroying our delusions. Healing our incomplete, ignorant and sickened hearts. He burns away everything that is incompatible with love and eternal life. The Trinity is three persons in loving relationship. He creates us with the goal of participating in that same eternal fellowship. Scripture refers to God as an all consuming fire. Says that all will be salted with fire. We as Christians in this life desire the purifying fire of His loving judgement. His fire perfects us. In this world we view judgement incorrectly. We see ourselves incorrectly. We misunderstand divinity. We misunderstand humanity. His ways are higher than ours. True strength doesn't destroy or cast aside. Omnipotent power recreates, elevates and reconciles. Christians are called to forgive and love all people, especially our enemies. It is a fragile imitation of God's perfect love and forgiveness. The Gospel is the Grace of God unto salvation. His ministry is and always has been a ministry of reconciliation.
The point of studying the early church is to try to determine what an authoritative interpretation of Gods word actually is since the books of the bible often make use of poetic language to convey truths about Gods will. And without studying the early church you can easily take parts of the bible too literally or too straightforwardly, or the opposite. You can end up running into the problem the protestants have where they all have different interpretations beleiving their own to be authoritative because they 'read it in the bible' without realizing that evey protestant who disagrees with their interpretation also read their interpretation in the bible too. Studying the history of beleif is one way to begin to solve the authoritative interpretation problem and get away from alot of the weird doctrines that emerged in the last 500 years.
Excellent point: " They didn't even try to understand it." They were condemning an out-of-context idea.
Behr is immensely even-handed and charitable. What an example!
He’s literally a gentleman and a scholar, of the first water!
He’s SAINT Origen to me.
It's not about you, it's about the Church. Universalism is Mystery Babylon the Mother of Harlots. Wake up and shake off this soul destroying and blasphemous delusion
The Universalism that Origen taught where everybody even Satan will be redeemed, is the Creed of the Church of Antichrist that delusional Ecumenists everywhere are building, namely Mystery Babylon, the Mother of Harlots
Good for you, but the Church doesn't agree.
The “church” also made the murderous thug Justinian a Saint, so…
Origen is overhated. Some people act like he’s the source of all the problems in the modern church for this very reason.
Origen is the litmus test of orthobroism. Look how they demand from everyone, “you must condemn Origen or you are ANATHEMA!” They throw this around Abp. Alexander Golitzin videos because he, a gentleman and scholar like Apr. John Behr, likewise appreciates the First Christian Philosopher.
Orthobros can’t abide scholarship that controversy their fundamentalist ideas about the Church, that she never faces quandaries, that scholars and saints disagree sometimes, that a council might have got something wrong. Bros depend on an authoritarian structure where The Church Owns All Knowledge And All Wisdom Without Error Ever and Never Ever Changes Anything.
@@claesvanoldenphatt9972He and his heresy was condemned at the Fifth Ecumenical Council 🤡
Christianity and its god are overloved.
Behr is the GOAT
Goats are on the other side
Idolatry
Thanks for this.
St. Basil seems to have had a rather low opinion of Origen's soundness on the Trinity. He says in chapter 29 of "On the Holy Spirit":
"The opinions which he held concerning the Spirit were not always and everywhere sound; nevertheless in many passages even he himself reverently recognises the force of established usage, and expresses himself concerning the Spirit in terms consistent with true religion. It is, if I am not mistaken, in the Sixth Book of his Commentary on the Gospel of St. John that he distinctly makes the Spirit an object of worship....Thus I apprehend, the powerful influence of tradition frequently impels men to express themselves in terms contradictory to their own opinions."
That’s not what i’ve read:
In his exegesis Basil was an admirer of Origen and the need for the spiritual interpretation of Scripture. In his work on the Holy Spirit, he asserts that "to take the literal sense and stop there, is to have the heart covered by the veil of Jewish literalism. Lamps are useless when the sun is shining." He frequently stresses the need for Reserve in doctrinal and sacramental matters. At the same time he was against the wild allegories of some contemporaries. Concerning this, he wrote:
"I know the laws of allegory, though less by myself than from the works of others. There are those, truly, who do not admit the common sense of the Scriptures, for whom water is not water, but some other nature, who see in a plant, in a fish, what their fancy wishes, who change the nature of reptiles and of wild beasts to suit their allegories, like the interpreters of dreams who explain visions in sleep to make them serve their own end."
-Hexameron, 9.1
Is there a link to full interview
Not at this time... although it will be up on Patreon later.
@LoveUnrelenting i am confuse so everyone go to hevan even people who don't believe in bible or in jusus go to hevan after death?
@@LoveUnrelentingso everyone go to hevan what about peaple who don't believe in jusus or Bible or living in sinning they go to hevan?
@@LoveUnrelentingquestion so everyone go to hevan what about peaple who don't believe in jusus or Bible like atheist also what about peaple who live in sin like murders or rapist do they go to hevan can you explain what universalism believe/doctrine?
@@LoveUnrelenting so everyone go to hevan so what about peaple who don't believe in bible or jusus like atheist or peaple who live in sins liker murders or rapists can go to hevans can you explain unvistlist believe/doctrine?
Awesome ❤❤❤❤❤
Is Behr still a priest?
Is he not a priest anymore?
He teaches at Aberdeen.
Apparently, Origen also believed in the pre-existence of souls.
Yeah and reincarnation. Both of which are true.
@@joshbanker8743 Where do you find that he believed in reincarnation? Any particular writing of his?
My religion does not believe in a permanent lasting self. Teaching of impermanence. The soul idea is in yours.
This is also debatable
@@MattisWell.20 I don't debate people that believe in God's.
Apokatastasis via reincarnation. True as can be.
He is my favorite Church father. The Popes quote him. I can do it too!
I don't think any discussion of Origen is complete without mentioning that he apparently castrated himself. This hatred of the body, originating with Plato, is a curse of the Western worldview which is still having its dire effects. Original sin, fall - redemption, reward - punishment, heaven - hell. These are all constructs of a world of the distant past, which we ought to move on from. Either Christianity is about love, or it is about judgement and punishment. It can't be both.
There’s debate on whether or not he even castrated himself.
Castration isn't always out of hatred for the body, sometimes it's done out of a spiritual love for ones body.
We do not have to mention this about Origen. You characterize it as hating his body. You do not need to characterize it in this way. Perhaps we should also mention how theologians who shave their faces or their heads hate their bodies. Or maybe we shouldn't listen to overweight theologians who also must hate their bodies.
@alconvin2334 If you say so...
Wanna have your mind blown? The story of someone hearing Matthew 19:12 and castrating themselves is falsely attributed to Origen was in fact originally done by a pair of renegade Egyptian monks. They were excommunicated by the Patriarch of Alexandria. It was upheld by the Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Pope.
It’s a story told in “The sayings of the desert fathers” compiled by St Palladius.
He was rightly condemned for his heretical theology.
Evil must end or God is not God.
Origen made some good defenses of the faith, however destruction is the most biblical view.
You put more weight in the early church fathers than the actual bible.
You are in error sir
Umm, the Church wrote the bible? So... there's that.
Origen is the greatest theologian of all time, (personal opinion). Respected by and heavily influenced Gregory of Nyssa: The Father of Fathers. We, arguably, would not have the nicean creed if not for the Cappadocian father's, all of which were of one mind with Origen. He is the first Theologian of the Church, outside of John the beloved and Paul the apostle. A true"man of God" who defended the church against heresy from within and without. Origen loved the church and Scripture, able to read it in every ancient language. John Behr is 100% correct. Informed, educated and articulate. I wish more Christians in the West would study church history. Maybe our history could help unify us all.
@shokannon1806 Origen, Gregory of Nyssa and Clement are the only universalists.
You can quote any church father you want, but, the bible does not describe universalism- just a cursory view would put annihilation as the most biblical view.
Universalism is a conscience comforter, but falls short of biblical support.
@@TruthfromBibleMinistry Annihilation is, on the surface, a more comforting version of our afterlife. In comparison to eternal conscience torment. Only superficially. It doesn't fit with God's character, as revealed in the person of Christ. In Christ's revelation of the GodHead.
Ultimate reconciliation fits the overall narrative of scripture. Is more consistent with the totality of scripture. The story of God's relationship is one of destroying our delusions. Healing our incomplete, ignorant and sickened hearts. He burns away everything that is incompatible with love and eternal life.
The Trinity is three persons in loving relationship. He creates us with the goal of participating in that same eternal fellowship.
Scripture refers to God as an all consuming fire. Says that all will be salted with fire. We as Christians in this life desire the purifying fire of His loving judgement. His fire perfects us.
In this world we view judgement incorrectly. We see ourselves incorrectly. We misunderstand divinity. We misunderstand humanity. His ways are higher than ours. True strength doesn't destroy or cast aside. Omnipotent power recreates, elevates and reconciles.
Christians are called to forgive and love all people, especially our enemies. It is a fragile imitation of God's perfect love and forgiveness. The Gospel is the Grace of God unto salvation. His ministry is and always has been a ministry of reconciliation.
The point of studying the early church is to try to determine what an authoritative interpretation of Gods word actually is since the books of the bible often make use of poetic language to convey truths about Gods will.
And without studying the early church you can easily take parts of the bible too literally or too straightforwardly, or the opposite.
You can end up running into the problem the protestants have where they all have different interpretations beleiving their own to be authoritative because they 'read it in the bible' without realizing that evey protestant who disagrees with their interpretation also read their interpretation in the bible too.
Studying the history of beleif is one way to begin to solve the authoritative interpretation problem and get away from alot of the weird doctrines that emerged in the last 500 years.