The Best and Most 'Stealable' Mechanics from Tabletop RPGs
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ต.ค. 2023
- This 2023 Game Narrative Summit session explores unique and innovative mechanics in the tabletop roleplaying game world, and provides jumping-off points for designers to implement and experiment with them in their own games. Evan Hill, Senior Area Designer at Obsidian, introduces attendees to the wide and strange world of tabletop RPGs, and discusses all the obvious and secret ways the genre has influenced the goals and designs of digital games (for example: how computer roleplaying games work to capture the experience of having a Game Master). Evan also outlines the experimental nature of the talk, looking for new innovations and adaptations that can be transported to digital game design.
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Awesome to see my Knave and Maze Rats games on here! Thanks Evan! I've never heard of Willowby Hall referred to as a "Lasagna of Problems" but now I'm going to start calling it that.
thanks for all your work, it was actually your channel that inspired the talk! Also looking forward to getting my copy of Knave 2e!
Wow awesome they knew about knave and maze rats for this
It is shameful that popular YT creators (even though they deserve it) get more attention than people who have created a truly revolutionary game like Blades in the Dark.
No shade on QuestingBeast, he's great! But Blades in the Dark by John Harper is revolutionary!
BitD is a thing that will be remembered in decades to come!
@@schm00b0I get that you like blades in the dark, but to reduce the creator of Knave to a "YT creator" shows that you have a glaring blindspot. I recommend you work on that.
@@schm00b0 Blades in the Dark is literally in the talk lol
Im gonna use this as my notebook:
- Flashbacks, using a system of "Stress" to meassure how much they can do it and how it affects them. (Checking Blades in the Dark)
- Clocks.
- Beliefs and Instincts. Points that the DM can use without the player declaring it. This one sounds cool af.
- Vice Stat. An stat that is better and grows the more you use it, but it causes on-rol consecuences. Cool af too.
- Nature. Bonuses by the nature of the character, and it must be balance betweeen the esscence of the character. If you act according to nature, you get a bonus, and against it too, but with the possibility of failing the roll and loosing nature. You can tap that number as a raw bonus.
- Those game where you use a Jenga. Basically, mechanics that build tension over time until the boot hits the vent.
- Games with dice alocation.
- One page systems. Great and simple and cool.
- OSR, Pick up and play. KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid.
- Story Logic as Mechanics. Using dice and a tracker and thats it. Check Out Powered By the Apocalipse.
- Mind Map to desing quests?
- Learn and Steal from the best.
Thank you very much Evan Hill!
I’m sure I missed something or made a mistake, so please correct or add in the comments but hope this helps with searches and purchases as I thought I’d rewatch and come up with a list:
TTRPG:
Numenera & Cypher System (Monte Cook)
Blades in the Dark
Darkest Dungeon (board game currently on KS)
Burning Wheel & Mouse Guard
Dread & Star Crossed
One Page RPGs:
Honey Heist
Sexy Battle Wizards
Everyone Is John
OSR:
Knave 2
Waking of Willowby Hall
Maze Rats
Into The Odd
Electric Bastionland
Bonus stuff:
Pathologic 2
Gnosia (novel and a video game)
Apocalypse World (PbtA):
Dungeon World
Monsterhearts 2
City of Mist (modified)
Disco Elysium (modified)
Video Game RPG:
Outer Worlds 2
The Last of Us II
Torment Tides of Numenera
Plane scape Torment
Solar Ash
Palia
Darkest Dungeon
Pathologic 2
Fall Out (image)
Metal Gear Solid
Mass Effect
Disco Elysium
Roll & Write Genre’s Citizen Sleeper
Tharsis
Dicey Dungeons
Rogue
System Shock
Hitman
thank you so much for this list, this video was amazeballs.
You put Apocalypse World "Video Game RPG", it is a TTRPG, a mechanical predecessor of many TTRPGs such as Dungeon World, Monsterhearts and City of Mist.
@@ElektronikArzt good spot and updated!
+1 for Gnosia
Ugh so cool. GDC is doing so much for independent game creators. (Let’s be honest, only indies are going to implement all the cool ideas on display at GDC… AAA still gonna chase the tail of the biggest games from 10 years ago.)
Check out Oblivion Oddities Project Studios game. They are literally implementing all of these Ideas into one game called Oblivion Oddities & plan on making it a template standard for video games to use.
Sort of funny because Ubisoft just released/made a Metroidvania. Only years after the genre proved itself on the indie scene.
It's awesome to hear someone else advocate for BitD style flashbacks in Assassin's Creed. Hope someone from Ubisoft is listening. The best part is they can justify it as a new and improved animus feature, which lets the user jump to an earlier "glossed over" memory in the middle of synchronizing a different memory.
A cool game that came to mind when I saw the jenga tower is Icarus. It's a world building game about a city and its inevitable fall. The mechanic that I love is that the dice you roll and that represent decisions, resources, peopple and more, get stacked on top of each other in the middle of the desk. As the consequences of the player's actions pile on the dice tower becomes more and more unstable until at one point it will fall. When it happens nobody knows. But everybody gets more and more tense, more and more careful to not shake the table. And the fall, as is often the case, comes sudden and unexpected. I think that is a great mechanic that adds not only to tension but also to replay value as you're always left wondering "what if I could've stacked one more dice, one more event?"
Maybe that's something videogames can implement too?
Citizen Sleeper is an awesome video game that yoinks clocks from Blades in the Dark awesomely
Will there be another talk about stealable mechanics from boardgames? I'd like to see more than just deckbuilding, tile-laying, and casino games(blackjack, poker etc)
It's cool how many diverse RPGs there are. I've played Masks before and it's another powered by the apocalypse game. The hardest thing about ttrpgs is getting people out of the headspace of optimizing character builds and into focus of making a fun and interesting story.
Players don't play TTRPGs to make stories, they do it to impose their character onto our worlds and leave their mark, if a story comes out of that; thats great, they don't feel strongly either way.
Its GMs that want to tell stories, which is why they have 90% of the power in their game, while also being the minority in the group.
The best RPGs allow both. Ludonarrative and all that
Nice. I pitched a similar talk but around more obscure and experimental genres like ARGs, living games, unique games, legacy games, hybrid games, mega games, and more. Sadly, they said the talk was too tabletop focused and the tabletop summit said it wasn't focused enough on tabletop. Oh well! Maybe will repitch it with more focus in the future.
Still would love to run a roundtable discussion on these topics at GDC since there's a lot of awesome potential there to learn from others.
Im intersted about that topic! Any text or fount i can research?
@@constantinogellona710 : Which one specifically? Nothing I can think of deals with them all. But lots of papers and articles covering them individually.
Where is this talk on, I want to watch it!
@@AdlerMow : It doesn't exist because it wasn't accepted. I did some outline work and got some panelists lined up like Justin Gary and Brett from BrainGoodGames and some others but oh well. Maybe in the future I'll pitch it again.
I have done some talks on the topic casually in some "un-conference" relaxed chats around GDC in SF though. Might do it again this year if you're attending.
@@StefanLopuszanski I subscribed to your channel! If you do a video on the content of that talk, I will surely watch it!
Fooork me - Just give this brilliant guy 2-3 hours to elaborate ❤️ Such a shame to rush through it 😱
I've just started to play citizen sleeper, and they totally borrow this clock idea for everything !
Not sure why the initial hate for the Cypher system-I’ve recently gotten into cypher and it seems very rules-light and intuitive from what I’m reading.
I also find it interesting that these "stolen" ideas can be embedded very deeply into the gameplay and narrative, as core design principles or pacing mechanics or you name it. And they can be implemented on a very much a surface level, as a visible UI and reference to its predecessors, moment to moment resolution mechanics.
My friend runs and co-runs LARPs from time to time and every time he asked me for advice I couldn't help myself, but steal from card-based video games. "You need magical abilities, that are invocative of Fae and Pride and Prejudice? Why don't you write some cards and give them to your players?"
"Portents and visions? Why not give them the sealed letters with precise time?"
"Predestination? Just reward them for being at the right time at the right place and say certain things."
Players still largely get freedom, but they would feel larger forces at play and they could be empowered by deciding and where and when the powerful curses can be uttered.
So it is very enjoyable to see the video game design do the opposite.
Great talk! I've been wondering about this exact thing. Some of my favourite games ever have been very directly inspired by tabletop RPGs, or at least the sort of... design sensibilities of TTRPGs (Disco Elysium, Sunless Sea, Citizen Sleeper) and although I haven't had the opportunity to play any with a group, I got like 200 of them in an itch bundle ages ago and have loved reading them, they're very creatively inspiring.
I don't think people really get what he means by "stealing." good artists steal all the time. Nothing just... appears fully formed in a vacuum. it's often a good artist's job to figure out how to intelligently combine different ideas from other places together with this... little _spark,_ to create an _alchemy,_ something that has truly never existed in this way before, but is still grounded in like... _something._ Standing on the shoulders of giants, as he said. The way TTRPGs are designed, the way they incorporate tension/drama and storytelling so elegantly into such simple elements makes them perfect for studying when thinking about designing videogames. I mean, as well as actual videogames also. Also board-games!
You absolutely nailed it about ‘stealing’ which is alchemy with your own spark. People often misunderstand and think ‘stealing’ means being totally unoriginal. That’s one way to go but if Hollywood since 1990 has taught us anything, we should learn how hit or miss that is. Alchemy is the way to go.
I think the method I like most from tabletops are the ones that are good for people who AREN'T good at improve by providing both the prompts and answers to them - like apples to apples or cards against humanity.
You should look at Pendragon for its passions and traits. While the Powered by the Apocalypses game is good, in some cases, any system that has degrees of success as a mandatory puts a lot of strain on the Game Master. Some can handle it, but many can not. Same thing with player-facing things. While that is great for those who can handle being forced into the driver's seat, my experience is that it is not your average gamer. Most gamers need simple, and in situations where you need degrees for something, having those degrees already available avoids annalizes paralysis.
Another thing to steal from Blades (which some games do), is the mixed success and pushing your luck.
Amazing!!!!
Great talk. Whether it's ttrpg's or videogames, or even boardgames, I'm always fascinated with game mechanics of all sorts and how they do and can intermingle.
I'm in the middle of the video. He's making many points but does he actually come back to them and close these points? The times he mentions "how we gonna implement that" opens so many threads
"Pathologic" is not just a tabletop game, there is a video game version as well. It is quiet creepy.
Station Blue...like the podcast? We are intrigued.
BTW Alphyna of the Pathologic fame also worked (and led, if I'm not mistaken) on translating Disco Elysium to Russian
22:10 love the OSR
Well damn, have been thinking of getting into mousegard for quite some time now that I know it's based around burning wheel I'm definitely going to pick it up
First Fallout was supposed to be based on Gurps system but was denied the licence "because it was too violent" so they made a derivative SPECIAL. First 2 Elder Scrolls games also take some aspects of that point buy system with ability to take advantages and disadvantages at the cost of slower exp gain.
SHOUTS TO THE MIND MAP FROM PATHOLOGIC 2, ALL MY HOMIES LOVE THE MIND MAP FROM PATHOLOGIC 2
Thank you!
LOVE ✊🏿
22:33 Oh god that’s prick lmao. Damn Zee Bashew is awesome
well shit. I developed a stress mechanic for my game based on Darkest Dungeon, but made key changes.....that ended up looking a hell of a lot like Blades in the dark. I never had never even heard of Blades in the dark! Jeeez
Nice
I loved this talk last year!!
How about now?
Having designed and helped to design some game mechanics mostly for live action rpgs/events I will say there really is no such thing as "theft" in game design. Game design is about ease of use and adaptability. You can have the coolest ideas and rules for your game, but if they dont move smoothly and feel natural its never a good game. Creative writing a good combination of hooks, callbacks and customization and good editing is what makes most games great.
Advanced Crimson Dragon Slayer + *CHA'ALT*
I'm glad this video exists, but I think the presenter needed to sloooooow down and give more depth to each example, or, present far fewer examples. Inget the impression they do not have a great sense of what they know thay what others do not. Also the loud key clicks are distracting.
im so confused why would obsidian make a second outer worlds though???
I’m guessing most of the team thought there was more to be done with the IP, and liked the first one
First one was pretty cool but could be improved
From what I can tell Tim Cain isn’t fully employed by Obsidian anymore but I know him, Leonard Boyarski and the rest of the team are quite passionate about their work
Having not played the games, I am surprised that a mechanic that reinforces its use is a good thing. That seems like it would take away options and be less interesting? How does it get around that?
This Burning Wheel stuff seems a little bit off. *Bloody Versus*; Greed, Grief, *Hatred*.
Check out Oblivion Oddities Project Studios game. They are literally implementing all of these Ideas into one game called Oblivion Oddities & plan on making it a template standard for video games to use.
2:19 - did I hear it right? "More Gygaxian days of tabletop RPGs"?
Arguably, the very first system that Gygax and Arneson envisioned was a pen and paper MMORPG-dungeon masters create dungeons in a real-time world where in-game and out-of-game time both pass normally, hit points recover slowly (1 per day) and gold is used to level up. The goal of the game is to dungeon delve to get loot and gold to get to a higher level. You can get to deeper levels with higher level characters, but if you die, you have to start over with your leveling process on a new character. So at the game level, level progression is the goal of the dungeon. At the group level, anywhere from 5-40 players are playing different nights of the week depending on whose dungeon the players want to delve into. A group can even explore a dungeon AFTER another group and find the results of their exploits.
So yeah-Gygax had a lot of silly fiddly rules ideas and an expansive vocabulary about discussing them, but the idea of an organic living shared game space is their greatest invention, decades before the mmo genre came into prominence.
This is a fine and good whirlwind tour of TTRPGs... but this is not really a summary of great mechanics to take from TTRPGs.
For example, "one-page RPGs" isn't a mechanic. You can't really just take that idea, as-is, and put that into a video-game. Alternatively, that has already been trivially done in game-jams where there are really short games.
While the summary is neat and does hit on genuinely useful-to-hear-about games like BitD and Burning Wheel, I would have liked to see more ideas and examples of how to use the mechanic. For example, BitD's "Clocks" are a mechanic for counting, which is great, but counting has existed since before TTRPGs and video-games already use "Clocks" in the sense that progress is counted. Burning Wheel's "Nature" is neat... but what application do you think could be translated to a video-game?
Again, great tour of TTRPGs for those that don't know about these games, but not really what the title suggests.
IMO one of the best things to steal is tic-tac-toe. Assign story points to each space, & make the acquisition of a space contested. Perhaps allow a space to be overturned under certain conditions or just once each or once per game.
I want to hear from him more!
maybe i'm misunderstanding but the speaker seems to forget Majora's Mask
Was there a specific part where they should’ve mentioned it? What do you mean?
Two engine
Though some of the games he worked on are stinkers, his familiarity and love for tabletops is obvious.
Which ones?
@@SeldonnHariFortnite
I see a lot of tabletop games taking from vidya, but i don't see it the other way around as much.
Lol
The fact that mafia-likes are being called amongus-likes bugs me
"Gygacian Times"
12:48 - "Greif"... Someone didn't proofread their slides.
I'm definitely not okay with trivializing trauma by making it a choice.
I assumed it was less about trivializing trauma and about giving players agency in their games, the choice of if they want to be impacted by traumas and play them out. Ttrpgs are about agency and escapism.
Most of these "mechanics" are just the GM making up stuff on the fly.
GMs are the engine of a tabletop game. That's like complaining that your procedurally generated terrain was "made up on the fly" by the computer.
Everything. Read FL-108 by Congress, nothing is copyright under federal law. Thank me later. Cheers!
theft!
THEFT
Well that was a waste of time. I didn't need to spend 30 minutes listening to someone gush about minimalism like its the same thing as good design.
In which way was this about minimalism?
Yeah, I'm halfway through and I don't even know if you watched the same video I'm watching
Did you really see the video?
He just doesn't like non-trad TTRPGs.
Tell me you’ve never played any of these games without telling me you’ve never played these game.
Good job.
I really feel like they should leave out the "who am I" parts of these talks. I don't think anyone really cares who you are, they only care if your ideas are good or not.
My main problem with this talk is that it's quite regressive but pretends to be progressive.
Tabletop games are designed that way because of limitation, not creativity.
We're talking about pieces of cardboard and plastic here, not some high tech machine capable of more calculations in a second than a billion humans can do in an minute.
The fact videogames even use stats or dice rolls or anything which comes from a physical game is a huge crutch which needs to end.
Using a number to communicate a stat like intelligence makes sense when all you have are scraps of cardboard and dice.
Videogames on the other hand are made with one of the most advanced types of technology humanity has ever created.
They can do better and should do better since they have so much more to work with.
I see what you're saying but I'd make a case for the way that limitation can breed creativity. Designing games inherently requires mechanics and framing certain mechanics based on the limitations derived from analog systems such as cards and dice can create interesting decisions, systems or interactions for players. Leaving everything to random number generation or computational systems under the hood can remove a sense of agency from players. Dicey Dungeons is a wildly inventive iteration on the roguelike precisely because of how it uses physical dice and the manipulation of dice to evoke a particular theme and create interesting decisions. Check out Balatro, a new roguelike videogame that mashes poker and Slay the Spire to create a unique spin on the card-based roguelike using a simple deck of cards. It's proof that there's so much room in videogames when we combine the potential of, as you put it, "the most advanced types of technology" and physical game systems/pieces.
@@chriscruz3889 With all due respect to those games, none of them really require a computer to exist.
Slay the Spire only needs a computer to render the visuals, the actual game doesn't actually require a computer to be implement.
In fact Slay the Spire is a terrible example considering Phantom Dust exists.
Phantom Dust also uses a deck of cards to cast spells but the game augments that with actual videogame mechanics.
In Phantom Dust if someone casts a spell to attack you, you can avoid it by running under a bridge. The actual game mechanics require computation to work.
In Slay the Spire, the only way to respond to something is with a card. This is what I mean by the mechanics not requiring actual computational power.
I rarely see games take inspiration from physical games and turn them into something all their own like Phantom Dust.
Most of the time it's a crutch for weak designers.
A lot of good stuff in this video, but I have noticed something: powered by the apocalypse is beloved by people who make videos and indie games, and hated by every gamer I know in real life. Sorry for the following rant:
I think a lot of creative people bought into pbta, hence all the buzz, but that most everyday gamers find it boring and unsatisfying; rules-lite has a good meaning to you guys, but we HATE it! Give me rules; what else are we buying your game for? We make up our own stories, and we just need a system of math to describe the world; if you don't give us that, and just tell us to handle scenes with a single roll, then why would we ever need you, or want to play that stupidly terrible way? Give us crunch! Give us granular rules, and we will decide to ignore them or tweak them if we don't like them, but don't think you can give us some vague general nonsense, call it "story-driven" and pretend that is enough, or that it's an actual product. I seriously cannot wait for the death of this stupid trend, and the return of rules-heavy, combat-focus games over ones with stupid NPC dialogue scenes that annoy, bore, and waste time. If you are being Britta, and worrying about the social issues of an rpg world, you are doing it wrong, and please stop speaking as if you are the community, because you are more like a cancer on the community. Please return to the proper focus of this gaming style, which is non-social encounters, like combat, traps, puzzles, mazes, etc. I don't care about your social justice diatribe pretending to be an interactive play; I want to problem solve and use limited resources to overcome obstacles. You know, the base of the game, and what is it REALLY all about; not what these noobs think is the focus, which again is talking about the feelings of their imaginary friends, lol. But like I said, I think this little social media inspired bubble will soon pop, when the money is clearly in games with actual rules, and therefore value, not just some pretty art and talk about vibes and vague made-up skills. It's basically the substitute teacher putting on Braveheart and saying they are teaching history; don't be lazy, actually bother to create some rules for your rule system, instead of trying to phone it in and pretend that you actually did something worthwhile. Again, I get why creators like it, because they see it as freedom, and probably like coming up with all that stuff, and prefer more social games; people that I actually game with though, who buy the books and accessories, have tried this trend and HATED it! Felt like a rip-off, or at best like we bought a book of some cool artwork, but the system was useless and ambiguous at best. We wanted to pick up a system that works, and get to playing, not have to figure out how to fill in all the numerous blanks in your unfinished system before we could even play, or having disagreements because nothing is clear or spelled out. F*CK rules-lite, and this "let's talk about feelings and social injustice in a fantasy setting" horsecrap. I will never buy anything else "Pbta" and that mark now just tells me that I should stay away from that game, because it is automatically a steaming pile of manure. I look forward to games closer to BESM, GURPS, etc coming out soon, when people finally try this current garbage and are over it, wanting to move on to the next thing. Okay, sorry, I needed to get that off my chest, as I am tired of all the videos praising mediocrity, but I also get that others are different, and I can only speak to those in my community who have shared their opinions on this trend, but obviously there are other sections of the community, and they deserve to have their games and have fun how they want. I just don't like this new apparent trend, and I also question whether it is real, since again, this seems to be one of those things that is popular on the internet, but no one I know in real life likes it or cares. Maybe a bunch of friends trying to help their friend's system by plugging it? Maybe paid to plug it? I don't know, there could be many reasons why a bad product suddenly seems popular on the internet. But the answer to WotC sh*tting the bed isn't to get rid of rules altogether, and have unstructured make-believe about feelings and without combat, the answer is instead to find games that are just as good (if not better) at using math and rules to describe a world.
P.S. The only good thing to come out of this trend is a more rogue-like feel that ttrpgs had decades ago, where the expectation wasn't that your character would live, it was that they would DIE! Those that make it are rare and special. That is the only thing in this trend that I see as worth salvaging. Let's take off the training wheels that many expect after modern D&D.
A contrasting opinion to some of your points: Some people aren't as concerned with the way D&D combat, and crunch for example, can bring narrative action to a screeching halt. Some people find D&D, or crunchy combat, to be boring and tedious with all the spacing and math and constant rolling (especially at higher levels). I play with a group that's been playing 5e for 4 years now and we're feeling like we've outgrown what it offers. We're less concerned with combat because it takes longer than we want and isn't as interesting for us as exploring character interactions and engaging with the world and NPC's our DM has lovingly developed over the years. It's felt like the combat removes us from our favorite parts of the world. These alternative systems you claim have no value because they have less rules are exactly what excite us. There's more room for us as players to make a mark on the world instead of the binary success/fail of 5e and there's more room for the DM to create dynamic challenges for us. Different systems exist for different people's interests and that's the wonderful thing about this hobby for all of us. I understand where you're coming from but that's why we are all lucky to be able to choose what interests us. The good thing to come out of this trend is that it grows the hobby for all of us as we now have so many entry points for people to find what works for them. I'd challenge you to look at this new wave of games as just another option in a sea of cool stuff to try out.
I hate talk about theft to make it okay. It’s not okay.
if a game you like has a good mechanic and you think your game would benefit from this mechanic, its okay to take it. the concept of a FPS was once "stolen", or the concept of HP also had to start somewhere. "theft" is a colloquial description, its not bad to not reinvent the wheel.
@@irisanuwu6113 I wish there was something else to call it. As an artist who has had things stolen, I hate to hear about it as a joke.
@kponly inspiration, mechanical influence, blending of gameplay of different genres, finding a starting point for an ability system. That's just naming conventions. However, I agree it should be a starting point and not 1:1 copied.
I think that you may be an example of why we need to continue to refer to it as stealing, the idea that innovating and designing games is an iterative process where you will take the idea of your predecessors and they may not like it. My thesis, ideas cannot be stolen only shared.
Lately I have been chewing on the idea that ownership does not exist, only stewardship. We will live and die, but the things in the relationships in our lives may continue. Ownership is an abstraction that I hope to replace in my life with the term stewardship, it is a meaningful distinction in how we approach life.
I’ll try to find a better word for it or I’ll make one up.