The craziest shape change happened in the beginning of smokeless powder. The very first smokeless powder cartridge was 8mm Lebel and it looks funky to say the least lol. Compare it to 8mm Mauser that came out a few years later and all of the sudden cartridges look very modern.
I liked your video. I am 67 years old And just picked up a 6.5 PRC Just for a little less recoil than my 7mag that I have had for 40 years. Plus the new bullets out now are great . And instead of getting a custom barrel for an old cartridge you can get an off the shelf rifle! With faster twist barrel and tighter chamber. And why not try something new? Cheers Just my opinion!
You can now get the 162 eldx bullet for the 7 mag that has a higher BC than even the 6.5 PRC with its 143 eldx. How accurate was your 7mag compared to your new 6.5 PRC? Curious because I am considering the same move from 7 mag to 6.5 PRC, but it means giving up about 100 yards effective range for deer / elk.
I think the biggest thing in new cartridges is finding the sweet spot in reducing recoil and shooting heavier and better built bullets. Less recoil makes it more fun to shoot and practice with, and improve skill. Smaller calibers lend themselves to lower recoil. Heavier bullets with better construction makes up for smaller caliber and lower velocities. It’s good stuff.
Biggest thing is that people are shooting farther and more accurately at the longer distances. But for hunting all the older cartridges are more than adequate for the most hunting distances
I’d like to see some reviews on classics like the m77 and m70… they’d definitely still have their place in the hunting market. There are only 3 CRF models on the market normal consumers can afford. Model 70 M77 M84
I tell people all the time that different cartridges are just different ways to propel the same projectiles at different velocities. You can load the exact same .308 cal projectile in a dozen different cartridges and the only difference is the maximum velocity obtainable from that particular cartridge.
Of course, as every other cartridge, 308 Win, 30-06, 7mm-08 Rem, 280 Rem, they are all in the pretty much same class, so it is all obout bullet and shot placement...
I haven’t done any load development yet. As I just got it. But going to try the Nosler 142 accubond The 127 LRX And the Hammer hunter 125. I bought it to use mainly on Deer out to 500 And Elk out to 400 max. But keeping the 7mag for Moose and Elk.
The biggest change has been in the Machining Advances. The tolerances and consistency. New or old does not matter. Most all is marketing hype. Been making barrels, actions, guns and testing equipment for 50 years. Freebore in a hunting rifles makes no significant difference in accuracy. The chamber and brass quality does. You can do an entire video on understanding bore, lands, and groves. Have access to 100 yards test tunnel with full machine rest and all Doppler equipment. When a gun, action, and barrel are put together to same tolerances. They all shoot well when matched with the right bullet, powder, brass, and primers. Has more to do with timing and harmonics. Most of it is mental and what you confidence with. Trends come and go. In the late 70’s and early 80’s we saw the trend of modified bench guns to hunting rifles. Too heavy and not practical. Then trend was pencil thin barrel and no weight. Too light hard to shoot. Current trend is Long Range and building hunting guns that are sniper guns. My recommendations when asked, is to define the purpose/application then go from there. I do like the comment about the war surplus gun. In the 60’and 70’s WWII and Korean surplus rifles were everywhere. Many 6.5X55’s, 7X57, 30-06, 303 British, 8X57, and 7.7. When loaded with good hunting bullets they sure got the job done. They sold for $19 to $39. Made great build projects.
Biggest limitation of 30-30 is the rifles it's chambered in. Hard to mount any kind of optic on a Winchester 94. 30-30 would be wildly more popular with a side eject and box magazine fed lever action rifle.
Like you said, cartridges are simple. Not much changing except tighter twist barrels allowing for heavier bullets. But, again, that's not a new concept, either. As far as rifles, things have gone a bit backwards in my opinion. My Dad just gifted my daughter his old Rem 700 in .270win. This rifle is probably 50 years old and is beautiful. It's never been rebarreled or altered in any way and stills shoots a clover leaf. He told me to order him a new rifle and do it however I wanted, just keep it under $2k for rifle and scope. So I spent about $1k on each. The rifle is pretty nice. But compared to the old 700, not even close. Not gonna name the company but it's a very popular imported rifle. Now, let's talk optics. This is where things have improved by leaps and bounds.
One thing. I've been paying attention to a lot of these pro. Shooters have 2 different twist rates on their barrel. For instance, it'll start out say an 8 twist and finish a7.5 7 twist I even seen a guy have a barrel spun up 10 twist starting at the chamber and 8 twist at the other end and I have to Say they're getting really good performance by doing that. Probably in the next 3 to 5 years. It might be a new fad to have 2 different twist rates on the same barrel. Quite a few of the guys in the king of 2 miles. Had 2 different twist rates on the same barrel. It was pretty amazing the accuracy they were getting.
In my opinion since the invention of 7mm Mauser, the common magnums of the 60’s moved the needle a little, then the short magnums moved it again. One could argue the high bc craze moved it again but for hunting applications makes little to no difference. When you look at modern cartridge designs with blown out tapers and sharp shoulders, to me they are neither an improvement nor a hindrance. There’s no free lunch and you give up certain cartridges attributes and characteristics every time you change something. Each cartridge resides in its own state of homeostasis.
@@robertpetersson5655 same, I prefer the smooth feeding of a 270 to something like 280 AI. Within 400 yards they will both kill deer size game just as dead. I’m with you though I’ve never made a shot over 250 yards hunting out west my whole life.
In my view, small arms in general have stagnated, much like most tech in the world. You can shoot a 100 year old cartridge and fly to the hunt in a 747. According to economists, the last 50 years have seen the fewest major productivity improvements compared to any other 50-year period since the mid-1800s.
Cartridges are largely unchanged since the late 1800’s to early 1900’s. You mostly just have advancements in the understanding of what makes an effective and efficient bullet, along with necessary changes to twist rate. But otherwise, we haven’t seen any real technological advancements.
You said no to your wife then went on to talk about the barrel. I have the same problem of the easy word for the everyday person, then to “our knowledge of ultra knowing.”
The old cartridges are just as good or better than the new cartridges out to 400 yards. When you go beyond 400 the new cartridges start to gain and surpass the old guys.
I agree. Most big game animals are taken well under 400yds. The “old” cartridges work just fine and always will. Gun and ammo makers are in the business of making money and they work very hard to convince everyone we need to have some new caliber, twist rate, whatever. High BC bullets offer little at 400yds or less, and this is a hunting channel not a long range competition channel. It’s a shame that people spend their hard earned money on new budget rifles in some new fangled caliber when every year some local guy passes away with a collection of well made vintage rifles and they could acquire one for about the same cost with a scope already mounted.
The craziest shape change happened in the beginning of smokeless powder. The very first smokeless powder cartridge was 8mm Lebel and it looks funky to say the least lol. Compare it to 8mm Mauser that came out a few years later and all of the sudden cartridges look very modern.
True about the 30-06 and the 308 but about 50 years difference thanks have changed but the new powders have changed things too
I liked your video.
I am 67 years old
And just picked up a 6.5 PRC
Just for a little less recoil than my 7mag that I have had for 40 years.
Plus the new bullets out now are great .
And instead of getting a custom barrel for an old cartridge you can get an off the shelf rifle!
With faster twist barrel and tighter chamber.
And why not try something new?
Cheers
Just my opinion!
You can now get the 162 eldx bullet for the 7 mag that has a higher BC than even the 6.5 PRC with its 143 eldx. How accurate was your 7mag compared to your new 6.5 PRC? Curious because I am considering the same move from 7 mag to 6.5 PRC, but it means giving up about 100 yards effective range for deer / elk.
The ancient prehistoric 1890's 6.5x55 cartridge laughs
in original supremacy as 130 years later it STILL OWNS
I think the biggest thing in new cartridges is finding the sweet spot in reducing recoil and shooting heavier and better built bullets. Less recoil makes it more fun to shoot and practice with, and improve skill. Smaller calibers lend themselves to lower recoil. Heavier bullets with better construction makes up for smaller caliber and lower velocities. It’s good stuff.
Biggest thing is that people are shooting farther and more accurately at the longer distances. But for hunting all the older cartridges are more than adequate for the most hunting distances
I’d like to see some reviews on classics like the m77 and m70… they’d definitely still have their place in the hunting market.
There are only 3 CRF models on the market normal consumers can afford.
Model 70
M77
M84
I tell people all the time that different cartridges are just different ways to propel the same projectiles at different velocities. You can load the exact same .308 cal projectile in a dozen different cartridges and the only difference is the maximum velocity obtainable from that particular cartridge.
My 270 win with 150 grain bullets is fine for elk, deer and antelope. If I’m farther than 400 yards I’m going to get a little closer
Of course, as every other cartridge, 308 Win, 30-06, 7mm-08 Rem, 280 Rem, they are all in the pretty much same class, so it is all obout bullet and shot placement...
I just picked up a 30-06.
I haven’t done any load development yet.
As I just got it.
But going to try the Nosler 142 accubond
The 127 LRX
And the Hammer hunter 125.
I bought it to use mainly on Deer out to 500
And Elk out to 400 max.
But keeping the 7mag for Moose and Elk.
The biggest change has been in the Machining Advances. The tolerances and consistency. New or old does not matter. Most all is marketing hype. Been making barrels, actions, guns and testing equipment for 50 years. Freebore in a hunting rifles makes no significant difference in accuracy. The chamber and brass quality does. You can do an entire video on understanding bore, lands, and groves.
Have access to 100 yards test tunnel with full machine rest and all Doppler equipment. When a gun, action, and barrel are put together to same tolerances. They all shoot well when matched with the right bullet, powder, brass, and primers. Has more to do with timing and harmonics.
Most of it is mental and what you confidence with.
Trends come and go. In the late 70’s and early 80’s we saw the trend of modified bench guns to hunting rifles. Too heavy and not practical. Then trend was pencil thin barrel and no weight. Too light hard to shoot. Current trend is Long Range and building hunting guns that are sniper guns.
My recommendations when asked, is to define the purpose/application then go from there.
I do like the comment about the war surplus gun. In the 60’and 70’s WWII and Korean surplus rifles were everywhere. Many 6.5X55’s, 7X57, 30-06, 303 British, 8X57, and 7.7. When loaded with good hunting bullets they sure got the job done. They sold for $19 to $39. Made great build projects.
I think the first "real" innovation is the 8.5blk. That is thing is somehting else.
Biggest limitation of 30-30 is the rifles it's chambered in. Hard to mount any kind of optic on a Winchester 94. 30-30 would be wildly more popular with a side eject and box magazine fed lever action rifle.
Savage model 340 bolt action, Marlins 336 series of rifles, Henry has some single shots……..
@@joshuamccasland8180
Add the Savage 99 series to that list.
Like you said, cartridges are simple. Not much changing except tighter twist barrels allowing for heavier bullets. But, again, that's not a new concept, either. As far as rifles, things have gone a bit backwards in my opinion. My Dad just gifted my daughter his old Rem 700 in .270win. This rifle is probably 50 years old and is beautiful. It's never been rebarreled or altered in any way and stills shoots a clover leaf. He told me to order him a new rifle and do it however I wanted, just keep it under $2k for rifle and scope. So I spent about $1k on each. The rifle is pretty nice. But compared to the old 700, not even close. Not gonna name the company but it's a very popular imported rifle. Now, let's talk optics. This is where things have improved by leaps and bounds.
30-06 first developed in 1903. Bullet changed in 1906
I believe they slightly modified the case in 1906, too.
One thing.
I've been paying attention to a lot of these pro. Shooters have 2 different twist rates on their barrel. For instance, it'll start out say an 8 twist and finish a7.5 7 twist I even seen a guy have a barrel spun up 10 twist starting at the chamber and 8 twist at the other end and I have to Say they're getting really good performance by doing that. Probably in the next 3 to 5 years. It might be a new fad to have 2 different twist rates on the same barrel. Quite a few of the guys in the king of 2 miles. Had 2 different twist rates on the same barrel. It was pretty amazing the accuracy they were getting.
you mean gain twist rifling?
In my opinion since the invention of 7mm Mauser, the common magnums of the 60’s moved the needle a little, then the short magnums moved it again. One could argue the high bc craze moved it again but for hunting applications makes little to no difference. When you look at modern cartridge designs with blown out tapers and sharp shoulders, to me they are neither an improvement nor a hindrance. There’s no free lunch and you give up certain cartridges attributes and characteristics every time you change something. Each cartridge resides in its own state of homeostasis.
I prefeer easy feed over 100 fps. High bc is bs inside 200 yds. My longest big game shot is 120 yds.
@@robertpetersson5655 same, I prefer the smooth feeding of a 270 to something like 280 AI. Within 400 yards they will both kill deer size game just as dead. I’m with you though I’ve never made a shot over 250 yards hunting out west my whole life.
In my view, small arms in general have stagnated, much like most tech in the world. You can shoot a 100 year old cartridge and fly to the hunt in a 747. According to economists, the last 50 years have seen the fewest major productivity improvements compared to any other 50-year period since the mid-1800s.
I see here onTH-cam that there is apsolutly no guarantee that if you buy a prc cartridge and you are guaranteed endlessly good precision regardless.
Cartridges are largely unchanged since the late 1800’s to early 1900’s. You mostly just have advancements in the understanding of what makes an effective and efficient bullet, along with necessary changes to twist rate. But otherwise, we haven’t seen any real technological advancements.
Remaking old cartridges, like remakes of old movies.
You said no to your wife then went on to talk about the barrel. I have the same problem of the easy word for the everyday person, then to “our knowledge of ultra knowing.”
Why is the videographer doing this from Jim’s gun room? Wouldn’t it be better to just do it in the same room?
8.6 blackout was a big change. Everything else is a slight reimagining
8.6 is really only cool if you want to shoot sub sonic. Otherwise 338 federal is a much better hunting cartridge and it died off almost immediately.
Point to target and tell me were the 6 arc/ 6.5 prc/ 7 prc/ 300 prc beat you in group size. This podcast sounded like a boomer's anonymous meeting
You will see all these new cartridges will go away and the old ones will remain .
Prosjektils are difrents...
The old cartridges are just as good or better than the new cartridges out to 400 yards. When you go beyond 400 the new cartridges start to gain and surpass the old guys.
What does distance have to do with internal ballistics?
How do older cartridges perform better to 400yds?
I agree. Most big game animals are taken well under 400yds. The “old” cartridges work just fine and always will. Gun and ammo makers are in the business of making money and they work very hard to convince everyone we need to have some new caliber, twist rate, whatever. High BC bullets offer little at 400yds or less, and this is a hunting channel not a long range competition channel. It’s a shame that people spend their hard earned money on new budget rifles in some new fangled caliber when every year some local guy passes away with a collection of well made vintage rifles and they could acquire one for about the same cost with a scope already mounted.
Wearing head sets to record this 15 min video is one of the silliest things this channel has ever done
It's a clip from a long form podcast...