Empathy and kindness are a strenght, the greatest strenght. Not everybody can demonstrate kindness after going through a lot of trauma, so exhausting it can be. I was told by a lot of people that I was too kind, in a bad way, and that I needed to change. But I think that's the only trait I would never want to change about me. I have many faults, anxiety and trauma, but my kindness and seeing other people's kindness make me so happy. Being kind does not mean you are weak. On the contrary. And in that regard, Sansa is a very strong character. Same with Arya in truth, who protects her loved ones and innocent people the best she can. She can be cruel but never to innocents. The Stark sisters are more alike than they think.
Thank you for doing a Sansa stream! She’s had so much development in the books. We’re watching her grow into a woman with her own strength and courage. She has the potential to be a great leader of the north.
what miki said about lazy writers making their female characters go through sexual trauma in order for them to be badass and all is literally the main reason why i hated the show sansa's story so much. sansa is and has always been one of my favourite characters from the books and the way the show completely destroyed her (and others too ofc) is something ill never forgive them for
@@nont18411 They could really have done that in a different way. We all know Ramsey is a piece of s***, no need to go through with just another hanous crime to show the "growth" of another charakter... it's so lazy and disrespectful. Rape hinders your growth not kickstarts it.
@@nont18411 yes, but from a point on, sexually traumatic events in her storyline were used for the *shock* value, the same way with how they portrayed Dany. Its just sad to see this exploitation of a cheap and honestly lazy way of adding drama to a feminine character's storyline
@@argonne8472 The main reason that I think it’s distasteful is that Jeyne Poole is a side character. She’s supposed to be a damsel in distress for Theon to regain his sanity and save her. Meanwhile, Sansa is a main character so she can’t be a damsel in distress all the time. Even Theon himself, who suffered the most in the story, still had to step up to save himself and Jeyne because a good story needs an active main character, not passive. The final nail in the coffin for this merged storyline was when Sansa told the Hound that “getting raped by Ramsay makes me strong”. Like wtf? But to be fair, the show has a track record of portraying sexual assaults poorly, just look at the same Hound making fun of Gendry getting molested by Melisandre.
I really hope Sansa starts her own spy ring using literal little birds that she can control & see thru the eyes of 😊 Maiden In the Tower = Bird In A Cage
16:29 Sansa not getting any reward for doing all the things expected of her is like your boss putting down "meeting expectations" on your annual eval and not giving you a raise
Love this stream. Miki's theories are very palatable: simple, yet change the perspective of lots of things. Sansa is such a great character. Reading her chapters make me sad because she is going through things no child should ever experience. Much like her siblings, we see her display the strength of both her parents: her smart and endurance are what she use to survive. She was unprepared for all the trauma but we can see where that came from: parents who genuinely loved her and thought they could protect her from harm forever (as any parents should! yet asoiaf is an unkind world...)
Isn't Sansa's story an object lesson in why parents SHOULDN'T protect their children from harm forever though? At some point children have to grow up and face harm without their parents, and they're more likely to do that well if they're prepared for it.
Sansa made a gown for herself out of raven feathers: she's paralleling and reflecting the journey of a Bran becoming the Three-Eyed Raven and a Jon becoming a Crow. I wonder if Harry The Heir will be another failed betrothal/marriage that furthers her education, and she ends up as a Queen Elizabeth 1st figure ruling The North in her own right. Alternatively, she's still legally married to Tyrion, isn't she? In that case they could come to some sort of arrangement that makes peace between the last Starks and Lannisters standing.
Also just realized from your reading of the scene: Sansa guiding SweetRobin down from the Vale is echoing valkyries, erinyes, and their like; Sansa is a redheaded (fiery-headed) feminine guide taking a soul to and from the heavens and earth and underworld. Robert Baratheon was the biggest corn/green warrior king in the story, SweetRob's namesake, and was arguably guided to the afterlife by his wife while Sweetrobin may not survive the story, but what's interesting is Sansa is taking him down from the Vale, so the symbolism could suggest a downfall or perhaps safeguarding from said downfall. I see that foreshadowing Sansa will be responsible for SR's predicament.
Love it when I'm able to hit rewatch immediately on streams I'm late to, feels like such an indulgence to gorge on good character analysis (esp. with fun new guests) Hmm, at 21:30 I wonder if part of Ned failing to keep in consistent contact with Robert is loss of trust after the end of the war? Discord bookclub just re-read the tourney of the Hand chapter this afternoon, and Robert mentions Ned's inability to lie "for love nor honor," but Ned does lie for love his entire life. He's got an interesting dichotomy going on, where his love for Lyanna is alive, present, and awake despite time (tho' I'm sure his love for a very live Jon helps this). The tense for his love of Robert is half-past--hanging on glimpses of their shared youth and who Robert was then--and half-dreamt, "If he could prove that the Lannisters were behind the attack on Bran, prove that they had murdered Jon Arryn, this man would listen. Then Cersei would fall, and the Kingslayer with her, and if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly."
This was great! As a new reader to the series, (I’m only on storm of swords) Sansa is by far the least talked about character from what I see. Great to hear some good perspectives
“Human heart in conflict within itself” Littlefinger loves to think that he’s smarter than Cersei, that he’s so above emotion that he can manipulate anyone that he kinda forgot that Sansa is also her own person as well, his obsession for her clouds his judgement and he cannot keep manipulating her forever, something that Littlefinger himself taught her about Cersei.
21:36 Ned's bunker mentalism could be from a feeling "in his bones" that Winter is Coming and with things down south going south hes probably bricking it about having to pull another Kreegan and sack King's Landing (again)
I really cannot express how much I hope Sansa warging with a Shrike becomes a thing. They are in westeros, and the "song bird turned butcher" symbology would be too perfect
The d with a slash through it In Idunn is the letter "eth" which is not longer used in English. It is the "th" sound as in "than, wither"--voiced, inter-dental, fricative.
Cheers to Sansa the Husky! The stream was wonderful. This community is so fricking cool. I'm here to once again state that I don't see marriage in her future. She spent so much time as a pawn, feeling weak, etc., that I can't see her allowing anything close to that happening again once she fully attains her own agency. I think she'll retain her caring spirit, but she will be too smart, pragmatic, and cautious to allow anyone to remotely threaten her very hard won sense of self and safety. At tje end, she'll be more Elizabeth I than Elizabeth York.
Great stream. Sansa can get on your nerves, but I can have extreme sympathy for her. I love her arc as i love Theon’s arc. So much trauma that lead to so much growth. I love that she became a strong Stark protector. From little bird, to protector.
i never laughed as much as in Sansa's early chapters. Martin did great creating that child-like girl innocence that is so sweet but also get's on one's nerves :)) And I do agree, her storyline and character ends up making me be extremely sympathetic to her (felt similar to Theon in most of these aspects)
I wonder how familiar George is with Eastern European folklore, because a winged knight is a Serbian folkloric, possibly Turkish-influenced based off his name, equivalent of the Russian sorcerer Koschei the Deathless. Much like Sweetrobin being tucked away in the Erie by Lysa, he’s locked away in a tower by a princess where he grows frail and physically weak, that said he’s an evil figure who’s locked away for a good reason. Maybe my brain is just making connections where there are none.
David your videos make my work day so much better i appreciate all you do and have done its monumental your attention to detail and dedication to asoiaf is inspiring to say the absolute least
Loved the stream. Miki’s takes are excellent. BUT Sansa will never marry. You know how GRRM is inspired by history but puts it in that blender that is his mind and comes out with something different. While I agree that Sansa’s early life is inspired by Elizabeth of York, I believe Sansa’s story going forward is inspired by Queen Elizabeth 1, the Virgin Queen, who was a major political player with a very successful reign without marrying or having children.
David if you ever want someone to help you with the norse pronounciations I would happily help you out since you already have provided so many hours of entertainment and you have a sense for detail!
Has anyone ever noticed that the symbolism for Arya and Sansa's wolves are kinda swapped. Lady (a non specific name) is killed and becomes no one. And Nymiria (a queens name) gets separated from her family and becomes an Alpha wolf. this is especially accurate if sansa does end up as queen in the north.
@@dannyvalward1524Maybe it's more her eventually accepting her role in the House of Black and White. I think the show might have gotten in right in that Arya will turn back for home before becoming no one, but I do think eventually she will commit to it. Ya know, after a bunch of horrible things happen 😢
Dangg missed the streammmmmm nooooo!!! Best believe Ill be at the next! Always great vibes!🙌 Changing Jobs rn- relying on my entertainment for consistency to help me stay sane- so I am extra appreciative of the new content! Always bringing fresh conversations to a cold case!❄️
This and Eldric have been my fave streams you’ve done. Both recent guests are so incredibly insightful to their specialised topic on asoiaf (so have all other guests!!) but great work for this stream you two.
@@airwrecka97 I love how I can think i understand a character but then someone else's interpretation adds whole new layers to it or is so good it just replaces a thought you previously held
Tywin marrying Tyrion is Sansa was pure ego on Tywin's part - he insulted the Tyrells, he alienates one of his most able subordinates (Tyrion) and he risks the wrath of the Starks if the red wedding failed or Jaime were recaptured enroute to KL. Additionally, considering how much good will he had squandered with the north, the idea that a Lannister - the "Imp" no less - could have bee accepted as lord of Winterfell is delusional. Tywin acts according to vanity and most of his victories come from blind luck.
I'm sorry but your wrong. Tywin's machinations put his family in a powerful position. One, there's no insult to the Tyrells. Their getting a royal marriage and there's no public offer of betrothal from them to Sansa book and show but I'll borrow a line from show Tywin because it works, "There's nothing to refuse. This is a plot. Plots are not common knowledge." As for the idea that North simply will not accept a Lannister as overlord? If Tyrion gets Sansa pregnant their marriage is binding and the only living direct and legitimate descendant of the Starks will be that Lannister baby (why did a think Tywin wanted her pregnant so bad?) Pair that with Roose and all his vessels for immediate support. It's a solid plan.
Also he's already at war the Starks. Angering them further if the Red Wedding fails in end of itself kind of irrelevant. Also how it would it fail? The Starks were literally a captive audience the moment they set foot in The Twins. It's the falling off a falling off a log of mass murder from there.
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 the Red Wedding was a huge risk, any one of Frey's kids could've spilt the beans early, Robb's wolf could've got loose, I mean there's all sorts of possibilities.
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 Just because the Tyrells can't openly complain doesn't mean there's no insult. So, yes, Tywin is correct but as usual completely oblivious to how his scheming could serve to undermine his own position in the long run. A son by Tyrion and Sansa would be a Lannister, the very notion that a Lannister could hold Winterfell just because the daughter of Ned Stark was forced to marry her widely hated uncle is delusional. The Starks ruled Winterfell for 8,000 years, their bannermen would never accept a southron lordling who's been born to a hostage of the Lannisters, Stark or no, "the north remembers" and they'd sure as shit remember that Sansa is married to the man who's family colluded to have their king murdered after being granted guest right. Tywin is just too arrogant and narcissistic to even consider that the northmen might challenge his son/grandson one the crown has granted them Winterfell and the north, that's his biggest weakness by far. Tywin isn't the political genius people seem to think, most of his victories are blind luck, plot armour or the outcome of other people's deeds. This is the whole point GRRM is trying to get across by having him die taking a shit - he's full of shit, from head to toe, his reputation is built on bluster, brutality and bullshit. And of course it all blew up in his face because his pride wouldn't allow him to treat Tyrion with the respect he'd more than earned.
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 It's not just the Starks he has to worry about, many northern lords had their kin murdered at the red wedding and many more had lost family to the war with the Lannisters. And Ned was well respected in the north, he's one of the few Lords of Winterfell who bothered to visit the mountain clans which is the whole reason that Stannis is able to rally them to his side before attacking Deepwood Mott. He was the most important leader after Robert in the rebellion against the mad king, he's known for being just and fair and he makes an effort to visit with all of his bannermen no matter their station, he also hears any petition whether it be from peasant or lord. Not to mention the north is familiar with the dangers of winter and have a greater memory of the others, the importance of the wall and the threat of the long night than any other kingdom, while the Starks are like the figureheads of the war for the dawn and strongly believed to protect them from the dangers beyond the wall. So why would these lords accept a southron overlord, kin to a family they despise, entirely based on the fact that Ned's daughter was forced to marry the Imp whilst held as hostage during the war. He's uncle of the king who executed their Lord, son of the man who orchestrated the massacre at the Red Wedding, brother of the kingslayer, allegedly the man who conspired to murder Ned's son Bran and former prisoner of Lady Stark, who's marriage to Sansa was conducted by a southron septum instead of infront of a heart tree, and who's a twisted and ugly dwarf to boot which who's been marked by the gods for being a monster, not to mention being the exact opposite of the strong, tall, strapping warriors who men in this age are used to following. All of these faults would be passed onto their children so it wouldn't matter of Tyrion himself or Tyrion Jnr took their seat at Winterfell - a Lannister is a Lannister. They'd be assassinated in short order, or there'd be rebellion and what southron army is going to be able to march north and save them? As soon as winter comes that army would starve, freeze and mutiny, and all the southron lords know this, which is why the north is so difficult to conquer. To take power in this world you either need legal precedent on your side or you need the armed power necessary to establish new legal precedents just as Aegon did and the Andals before him. Tyrion has a tenuous claim to the former but not the latter.
I was looking forward to this one! I made it to the live stream but I'm battling a cold and fell asleep like 5 minutes in 😢 Garth forgive me, watching now to get caught up
Catching up on the replay. Sansa is my favourite character and loving Miki's take. ❤️ if anyone is interested in another thoughtful take on her, check out my little thought trees video called tge psychology of Sansa Stark.
I don't know if I am spoiling the hole book series for myself and everyone else, but when you said that the snow castele of Winterfell inside a snowcastle it made me think... What if Winterfell is the Heart of Winter? The hole castle is like a living heart, pumping warm blood. It has a Heart Tree. So does all godswoods, but what if it's THE Heart Tree? The King of Winter lives there, and so on... The Night's King may have been a Stark whose name was Brandon and sleept in the same bed as Bran and so on... That would explain even more why Bran was so frightened when he saw the Heart of Winter. The geography of the dream does not really match. North and north from the Wall and beyond the vail of light. But what if he still saw an image of Winterfell there? I don't know. I have probably thougt this before early on and probably you too. But it is something with the Russian Doll. The castle within a castle, that made me circle back to it again. The fractal nature of the story... The spirals of madness.
@DavidLightbringer Somthing like that. Maybe Winterfell is the original Nightfort. Rose Bolton is very much like a Night's King possessing Winterfell in the middle of a snowstorm. Binding the other northmen to his will. Perhaps the crypt is the original cave where Brandon the Builder met the Children of the Forest. Where the Last Hero got his Dragonsteel sword. Perhaps Winterfell is after all, instead, the Heart of Summer. The living beating warm heart in the middle of the winter...
I think Willas Tyrell wouid actually be a nice match to Sansa. A crippled but good-hearted falconer of eagles *cough*, first son and heir to Highgarden, appreciated by Olenna, described as intelligent, pious and gentle.. Maybe the wolf will marry the rose after all?
Oh, Maya, a bastard, helps the Others cross a barrier? Interesting! Edit: After listening to the end, and hearing the bit about who Sansa might marry. I do agree she probably won't marry a Lannister again...but...y'all did point out some Jaime-Sansa connections, and that was still percolating in my mind when this topic came up, so I figured I might as well put it out there to see what other minds think. Edit edit: I should wait 'till the end to comment. Someone else handled it. Nevermind!
1:20:30 I predict Sansa will have a parallel scene to Cerci at the Blackwater, but instead, she will actually be a source of comfort and hope. Maybe while the battle for the dawn rages on, Sansa is taking shelter in the crypts of Winterfell with other people, and she helps to calm everyone down.
I put it together in the end with the talk of the York + Lancaster marriage between enemies bringing together a new Tudor dynasty. The Lannister marriage obviously came and went as farce, but the same concept could be applied on a larger scale with the marriage between Sansa and one of the order of the Green Men, who seem to be the male version of the CotF. This would be in keeping with the general theme of synthesizing the old and new ways, returning to the more holistic pre-andal nature-oriented green weirwood society represented by the ancient Garth Greenhand esque green man kings. The marriage between half-first man half-andal Sansa and a CotF would usher in a final end to this ancient conflict that made Westeros such a fucked up, war and blood ridden place in the first place, creating a new 'dynasty' in the North with no wall, no Others, and no blood sacrifice, where the weirwoods are a natural healthy green instead of sickly white and red.
Hey David, thank you for all your great videos! I recall you once described the house sigils of the knights of the Vale in connection to Sansa when she was posing as Alayne. I’ve just read the pre-release chapters, and it reminded me of your explanation. Could you help me find the video where you talked about this? Im sorry if you already mentioned it in this particular video, I didn't have the time to watch this yet 🥲
For Ned, you really can see he had kind of deluded himself that he or his children would not need to be in contact with the south, nor get near it. I think by preparing them for political games would be like accepting that they would be playing the game, not doing anything to pretend nothing will ever happen. I think for Catelyn, it has to do with expectations of a good wife and mother. She has political agency but her years in the North kind of conditioned her to think there is nothing else waiting for her or her children.
George seems to like fun house mirroring his own invented history and real world history. The War of the Roses ended with Lancasters killing off the male line of York and assimilating its female lines through marriage. The Lannisters attempt to do this to house Stark. In the past the Lannister name carried on through an Andal Lord who agreed to take his Lannister wife's family name. Are we going to see this fate ultimately befall House Lannister? Those who don't die, marrying off and taking other houses names?
Fantastic stream! Also, my bet for who Sansa will marry is Harrison (Harry) Karstark. Just like the WotR it would unite the cousin houses of Stark and Karstark
20:58 I recall that Ned and Robert had a poor relationship right after the rebellion because he didn’t approve of Robert’s approval of the Targaryen child murders
I deff see Sansa single and fabulous! With all shes been thru I really don't think she will ever let a man tell her what to do!She can always have a side piece and keep her authonomy. The Queen in the North !!! ❤
@@Liizardqueen90 seen that be said with several characters. I started out watching S1 and was on the 3rd book by the time I watched S2. It was really cool how my reading overtook the show and gave me a sense of how the books were being adapted for TV. Then i just dove even deeper into the books and by the time I finished ADWD, I was already pointing out differences from the books to my show friends.
@ThommyofThenn 1000% I started watching the series around season 6. I liked the series but found something just missing. Then listened to the books haha then actually read them. I was first time I watched LmL through Quinnsideas. I was so amazed by the depth of the story and his attention to all the detail. I've been hooked ever since haha
@@Liizardqueen90 Another great channel. Most sci-fi I liked was movies and various tabletop /video games so when Quinn's channel showed me a lot of excellent sci-fi books, it was exciting!
@ThommyofThenn When he used to be ideasoficeandfire was my jam. Unfortunately alot of the thing he covers now I don't really get into. I'm usually a non fiction reader but this world I love ❤️
Really like the content, but I wish you would edit some of these live streams to shorter videos. I wish I had more time to watch, but sadly need to pay the bills.
Dave didn't do his homework. Faegon and Sansa will not end up together. Sansa's will end up withthe true heir to the vale, and one eyes bachelor Timmet son on Timmet. Her union with Timmet will become a reunification of the vale between the first men, the andals and the moutain clans, creating a unified vale for the first time since the invasion of the andals, and preparing the vale to confront the long night
@@DavidLightbringer no one really is connecting the dots on all interesting things in the vale, not just Timett, but what about his mother? Alys Arryns 4th daughter? Now it may be easy to dismiss the theories about timett, but then why are the burned men steeped in so much symbolism and lore? burned men are an offshoot of the painted dogs clan, that worshiped Nettles and sheep stealer, that are firstmen and wildlings from the vale. Its easy to otherize the mountain clan man as we see them mainly from sansa and tyrion's perspective. But assuming Timett is the true heir to the vale, his mother was a noble women and an Arryn. While its easy to believe Aly's arryns daughter was simple kidnapped and raped, we actually know per wildling custom, stealing a woman is the custom of wildling marriage. So we should expect that Alys arryn's daughters relationship with Timett father of Timett is actually more complicated, and we should also consider what her experience being stolen and learning to live with the mountain clans might actually have been like for her. We should also consider how Timetts mother's experience might actually inform us about Sansa and her experience as a captive and persevering through difficult challenges and ultimately gaining agency, and how a relationship with Timmet and his mother might benefit Sansa own jouney to develop agency for herself. I think most importantly for Sansa, a jouney into the mountains and experiencing the realities of the lives of the firstmen mountain clans might be the exact kind of experience that will help Sansa rediscover her identity as a stark, as well as help prepare her further for the challenges she will face. Additionally we should consider how this kind of an experience for Sansa would potentially parallel another character own experience and awakening in the wild. Namely Dany's experience in the dothraki sea. Now just consider what the political implications would be and the political leverage an alliance with the mountain clans would mean for Sansa? and why wouldn't the clans support sansa, the wife of tyrion, their open handed sponsor. Also who better to identity Sansa then Timett, who is jist about the only person in the vale that could and should be able to easily recognize her? Last bit i mention is that how better for GRRM to show us the fate of Nettles and sheep stealer then to take us into the mountains of the moon and show us the clan of the burned men? Will Sansa encounter the remains of a dragon, if we assume sheep stealer is not still alive.
@SSolemn Absolutely, I think it is a signal that Timmet will have a relationship with Sansa, Timmet and sandor are bith coded as dogs and burned men. however Timmet is much younger than Sandor and described as attractive, making any relationship Sansa has with him more appropriate.
You said it yourself! Jaime Lannister is her mirror image. They could end up in a political marriage to reconcile Stark and Lannister. If we are going with the War of the Roses parallel. Sansa and Jaime are not in love ofcause. I hope he strangle Cersei. He loves Brienne but she could have a tragic heroic death, saving the world.
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
Empathy and kindness are a strenght, the greatest strenght. Not everybody can demonstrate kindness after going through a lot of trauma, so exhausting it can be. I was told by a lot of people that I was too kind, in a bad way, and that I needed to change. But I think that's the only trait I would never want to change about me. I have many faults, anxiety and trauma, but my kindness and seeing other people's kindness make me so happy. Being kind does not mean you are weak. On the contrary. And in that regard, Sansa is a very strong character. Same with Arya in truth, who protects her loved ones and innocent people the best she can. She can be cruel but never to innocents. The Stark sisters are more alike than they think.
Being too kind can make you a pushover. Being kind I think truly matter when you have the strength in you to not be kind but choose to anyway
How could you prepare her, they didn’t even know they were going until Robert shows up.
Sansa's chapters are my favorite! Most excited about what's to come with her arc, over anybody I think. Thanks for focusing on her!!
Last time i was this early the Andals were in the Grass Sea 😂
Long live the Fisher Queen!
Thank you for doing a Sansa stream! She’s had so much development in the books. We’re watching her grow into a woman with her own strength and courage. She has the potential to be a great leader of the north.
what miki said about lazy writers making their female characters go through sexual trauma in order for them to be badass and all is literally the main reason why i hated the show sansa's story so much. sansa is and has always been one of my favourite characters from the books and the way the show completely destroyed her (and others too ofc) is something ill never forgive them for
I think it’s more of their laziness that they chose to merge Sansa and Jeyne Poole’s storyline into one.
@@nont18411 They could really have done that in a different way. We all know Ramsey is a piece of s***, no need to go through with just another hanous crime to show the "growth" of another charakter... it's so lazy and disrespectful. Rape hinders your growth not kickstarts it.
@@nont18411 yes, but from a point on, sexually traumatic events in her storyline were used for the *shock* value, the same way with how they portrayed Dany. Its just sad to see this exploitation of a cheap and honestly lazy way of adding drama to a feminine character's storyline
@@syaliishi914 totally agree, it’s lazy writing. It reduces female characters to just bodies.
@@argonne8472 The main reason that I think it’s distasteful is that Jeyne Poole is a side character. She’s supposed to be a damsel in distress for Theon to regain his sanity and save her. Meanwhile, Sansa is a main character so she can’t be a damsel in distress all the time. Even Theon himself, who suffered the most in the story, still had to step up to save himself and Jeyne because a good story needs an active main character, not passive.
The final nail in the coffin for this merged storyline was when Sansa told the Hound that “getting raped by Ramsay makes me strong”. Like wtf? But to be fair, the show has a track record of portraying sexual assaults poorly, just look at the same Hound making fun of Gendry getting molested by Melisandre.
I really hope Sansa starts her own spy ring using literal little birds that she can control & see thru the eyes of 😊
Maiden In the Tower = Bird In A Cage
Smash hits on the great new guests of late, Dave! Fantastic additions! (Props to our wonderful regularly reoccurring guests as well.) ❤
same here! ^-^ I'm absolutely enjoying the great dynamics showcased with the newer guests from the amazing collabs done lately!
16:29 Sansa not getting any reward for doing all the things expected of her is like your boss putting down "meeting expectations" on your annual eval and not giving you a raise
Love this stream. Miki's theories are very palatable: simple, yet change the perspective of lots of things.
Sansa is such a great character. Reading her chapters make me sad because she is going through things no child should ever experience. Much like her siblings, we see her display the strength of both her parents: her smart and endurance are what she use to survive. She was unprepared for all the trauma but we can see where that came from: parents who genuinely loved her and thought they could protect her from harm forever (as any parents should! yet asoiaf is an unkind world...)
Isn't Sansa's story an object lesson in why parents SHOULDN'T protect their children from harm forever though? At some point children have to grow up and face harm without their parents, and they're more likely to do that well if they're prepared for it.
thank you , Sansa is usually underappreciated, and thanks for showing us husky Sansa
Love the Sansa flying symbolism in the bridge crossing scene.
I love her character!!! I couldn’t stand her in the beginning but she learns and grows, and is becoming fantastic!!
Miki is an awesome guest- definitely wanna see more of her! ❤
Sansa made a gown for herself out of raven feathers: she's paralleling and reflecting the journey of a Bran becoming the Three-Eyed Raven and a Jon becoming a Crow. I wonder if Harry The Heir will be another failed betrothal/marriage that furthers her education, and she ends up as a Queen Elizabeth 1st figure ruling The North in her own right. Alternatively, she's still legally married to Tyrion, isn't she? In that case they could come to some sort of arrangement that makes peace between the last Starks and Lannisters standing.
Thanks @Miki for joining us. Great insights! ❤
Sansa as hand of the king for King Bran would be wild
Shipping Sansa and Dany as the Queens of Ice and Fire
Also just realized from your reading of the scene: Sansa guiding SweetRobin down from the Vale is echoing valkyries, erinyes, and their like; Sansa is a redheaded (fiery-headed) feminine guide taking a soul to and from the heavens and earth and underworld. Robert Baratheon was the biggest corn/green warrior king in the story, SweetRob's namesake, and was arguably guided to the afterlife by his wife while Sweetrobin may not survive the story, but what's interesting is Sansa is taking him down from the Vale, so the symbolism could suggest a downfall or perhaps safeguarding from said downfall. I see that foreshadowing Sansa will be responsible for SR's predicament.
This is also true with Robb! with Jeyne Westerling
@@Slechy_Lesh so if you r a man and your name starts w "r-o-b", becareful w your partner
Love it when I'm able to hit rewatch immediately on streams I'm late to, feels like such an indulgence to gorge on good character analysis (esp. with fun new guests)
Hmm, at 21:30 I wonder if part of Ned failing to keep in consistent contact with Robert is loss of trust after the end of the war? Discord bookclub just re-read the tourney of the Hand chapter this afternoon, and Robert mentions Ned's inability to lie "for love nor honor," but Ned does lie for love his entire life. He's got an interesting dichotomy going on, where his love for Lyanna is alive, present, and awake despite time (tho' I'm sure his love for a very live Jon helps this). The tense for his love of Robert is half-past--hanging on glimpses of their shared youth and who Robert was then--and half-dreamt, "If he could prove that the Lannisters were behind the attack on Bran, prove that they had murdered Jon Arryn, this man would listen. Then Cersei would fall, and the Kingslayer with her, and if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly."
This was great! As a new reader to the series, (I’m only on storm of swords) Sansa is by far the least talked about character from what I see. Great to hear some good perspectives
I am leaning towards the Jaime/Sansa thing. . . Jaime's arc has been interesting and boy wouldn't that just cook Cersei's goose!
“Human heart in conflict within itself”
Littlefinger loves to think that he’s smarter than Cersei, that he’s so above emotion that he can manipulate anyone that he kinda forgot that Sansa is also her own person as well, his obsession for her clouds his judgement and he cannot keep manipulating her forever, something that Littlefinger himself taught her about Cersei.
Excellent stream! Miki has some great insights & perspectives.
Coming from not appreciating Sanza I can say that I do now. Love this. Thank you
Brilliant stream. Thank you David and Miki.
I think Willis Tyrell is great idea. His sigal is a Rose. And it would be uniting the lands of winter and summer
21:36 Ned's bunker mentalism could be from a feeling "in his bones" that Winter is Coming and with things down south going south hes probably bricking it about having to pull another Kreegan and sack King's Landing (again)
man, there's something great about getting to watch these streams bit by bit over the week. thank you for the videos LML :)
I really cannot express how much I hope Sansa warging with a Shrike becomes a thing. They are in westeros, and the "song bird turned butcher" symbology would be too perfect
Really hope we can get Miki and Michael back again!
45:48 I agree this is a great stream. I love the takes on Sansa. She is SO complex and this light you guys are shining on her is well deserved
Missed the stream so I am making my offering to the algo gods!
Same ❤
Great stream! Great symbolism and awesome hosts!
thanks Ellie!
Really great discussion with a great guest!
The d with a slash through it In Idunn is the letter "eth" which is not longer used in English. It is the "th" sound as in "than, wither"--voiced, inter-dental, fricative.
Cheers to Sansa the Husky! The stream was wonderful. This community is so fricking cool. I'm here to once again state that I don't see marriage in her future. She spent so much time as a pawn, feeling weak, etc., that I can't see her allowing anything close to that happening again once she fully attains her own agency. I think she'll retain her caring spirit, but she will be too smart, pragmatic, and cautious to allow anyone to remotely threaten her very hard won sense of self and safety. At tje end, she'll be more Elizabeth I than Elizabeth York.
Great stream. Sansa can get on your nerves, but I can have extreme sympathy for her. I love her arc as i love Theon’s arc. So much trauma that lead to so much growth. I love that she became a strong Stark protector. From little bird, to protector.
i never laughed as much as in Sansa's early chapters. Martin did great creating that child-like girl innocence that is so sweet but also get's on one's nerves :)) And I do agree, her storyline and character ends up making me be extremely sympathetic to her (felt similar to Theon in most of these aspects)
I definitely relate to finding someone's appearance more unsettling when they're mean
Great stream, love to hear more about Sansa developping her political acumen
I really enjoyed this one…
2:06 “love that dog”
Thanks for the stream guys. Another great guest!
I wonder how familiar George is with Eastern European folklore, because a winged knight is a Serbian folkloric, possibly Turkish-influenced based off his name, equivalent of the Russian sorcerer Koschei the Deathless.
Much like Sweetrobin being tucked away in the Erie by Lysa, he’s locked away in a tower by a princess where he grows frail and physically weak, that said he’s an evil figure who’s locked away for a good reason.
Maybe my brain is just making connections where there are none.
thank you so much for this. what incredible time I just had it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you just got yourself a fan!!!!
I just moved into my first house too David!! Loved the Sansa stream I've been waiting a while for this and it did not disappoint.
David your videos make my work day so much better i appreciate all you do and have done its monumental your attention to detail and dedication to asoiaf is inspiring to say the absolute least
I love story time. David your Petyr voice is excellent
What a great stream! One of the best ❤ awesome guest!
Miki was great on this stream! Absolutely need her back on the stream soon!
Loved the stream. Miki’s takes are excellent. BUT Sansa will never marry. You know how GRRM is inspired by history but puts it in that blender that is his mind and comes out with something different. While I agree that Sansa’s early life is inspired by Elizabeth of York, I believe Sansa’s story going forward is inspired by Queen Elizabeth 1, the Virgin Queen, who was a major political player with a very successful reign without marrying or having children.
David if you ever want someone to help you with the norse pronounciations I would happily help you out since you already have provided so many hours of entertainment and you have a sense for detail!
Has anyone ever noticed that the symbolism for Arya and Sansa's wolves are kinda swapped. Lady (a non specific name) is killed and becomes no one. And Nymiria (a queens name) gets separated from her family and becomes an Alpha wolf. this is especially accurate if sansa does end up as queen in the north.
that's interesting, never heard that before
Maybe this even forshadows Aryas death? I don't hope so...
@@dannyvalward1524Maybe it's more her eventually accepting her role in the House of Black and White. I think the show might have gotten in right in that Arya will turn back for home before becoming no one, but I do think eventually she will commit to it. Ya know, after a bunch of horrible things happen 😢
@@jessjess23brooks89 That's a good theory! And still preferable I guess... pick your poison in asoiaf :/
Cute and well behaved direwolf pup in the background!!
Dangg missed the streammmmmm nooooo!!! Best believe Ill be at the next! Always great vibes!🙌 Changing Jobs rn- relying on my entertainment for consistency to help me stay sane- so I am extra appreciative of the new content!
Always bringing fresh conversations to a cold case!❄️
Thank you both for a content rich stream.
This and Eldric have been my fave streams you’ve done. Both recent guests are so incredibly insightful to their specialised topic on asoiaf (so have all other guests!!) but great work for this stream you two.
God I love this. I love it. I can't believe I missed it. Signed Sansa Stan
it was a great time!! Miki really brought it
Awesome stream and topic! I love Sansa’s character and Miki pointed out a lot of great reasons why Sansa is so cool!
@@airwrecka97 I love how I can think i understand a character but then someone else's interpretation adds whole new layers to it or is so good it just replaces a thought you previously held
If only George had been capable of having even one heart-to-heart conversation with Sansa, similar to the one he had with Arya . . . 😥💔
Tywin marrying Tyrion is Sansa was pure ego on Tywin's part - he insulted the Tyrells, he alienates one of his most able subordinates (Tyrion) and he risks the wrath of the Starks if the red wedding failed or Jaime were recaptured enroute to KL. Additionally, considering how much good will he had squandered with the north, the idea that a Lannister - the "Imp" no less - could have bee accepted as lord of Winterfell is delusional.
Tywin acts according to vanity and most of his victories come from blind luck.
I'm sorry but your wrong. Tywin's machinations put his family in a powerful position. One, there's no insult to the Tyrells. Their getting a royal marriage and there's no public offer of betrothal from them to Sansa book and show but I'll borrow a line from show Tywin because it works, "There's nothing to refuse. This is a plot. Plots are not common knowledge." As for the idea that North simply will not accept a Lannister as overlord? If Tyrion gets Sansa pregnant their marriage is binding and the only living direct and legitimate descendant of the Starks will be that Lannister baby (why did a think Tywin wanted her pregnant so bad?) Pair that with Roose and all his vessels for immediate support. It's a solid plan.
Also he's already at war the Starks. Angering them further if the Red Wedding fails in end of itself kind of irrelevant. Also how it would it fail? The Starks were literally a captive audience the moment they set foot in The Twins. It's the falling off a falling off a log of mass murder from there.
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 the Red Wedding was a huge risk, any one of Frey's kids could've spilt the beans early, Robb's wolf could've got loose, I mean there's all sorts of possibilities.
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 Just because the Tyrells can't openly complain doesn't mean there's no insult. So, yes, Tywin is correct but as usual completely oblivious to how his scheming could serve to undermine his own position in the long run.
A son by Tyrion and Sansa would be a Lannister, the very notion that a Lannister could hold Winterfell just because the daughter of Ned Stark was forced to marry her widely hated uncle is delusional. The Starks ruled Winterfell for 8,000 years, their bannermen would never accept a southron lordling who's been born to a hostage of the Lannisters, Stark or no, "the north remembers" and they'd sure as shit remember that Sansa is married to the man who's family colluded to have their king murdered after being granted guest right. Tywin is just too arrogant and narcissistic to even consider that the northmen might challenge his son/grandson one the crown has granted them Winterfell and the north, that's his biggest weakness by far.
Tywin isn't the political genius people seem to think, most of his victories are blind luck, plot armour or the outcome of other people's deeds. This is the whole point GRRM is trying to get across by having him die taking a shit - he's full of shit, from head to toe, his reputation is built on bluster, brutality and bullshit. And of course it all blew up in his face because his pride wouldn't allow him to treat Tyrion with the respect he'd more than earned.
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 It's not just the Starks he has to worry about, many northern lords had their kin murdered at the red wedding and many more had lost family to the war with the Lannisters. And Ned was well respected in the north, he's one of the few Lords of Winterfell who bothered to visit the mountain clans which is the whole reason that Stannis is able to rally them to his side before attacking Deepwood Mott. He was the most important leader after Robert in the rebellion against the mad king, he's known for being just and fair and he makes an effort to visit with all of his bannermen no matter their station, he also hears any petition whether it be from peasant or lord. Not to mention the north is familiar with the dangers of winter and have a greater memory of the others, the importance of the wall and the threat of the long night than any other kingdom, while the Starks are like the figureheads of the war for the dawn and strongly believed to protect them from the dangers beyond the wall.
So why would these lords accept a southron overlord, kin to a family they despise, entirely based on the fact that Ned's daughter was forced to marry the Imp whilst held as hostage during the war. He's uncle of the king who executed their Lord, son of the man who orchestrated the massacre at the Red Wedding, brother of the kingslayer, allegedly the man who conspired to murder Ned's son Bran and former prisoner of Lady Stark, who's marriage to Sansa was conducted by a southron septum instead of infront of a heart tree, and who's a twisted and ugly dwarf to boot which who's been marked by the gods for being a monster, not to mention being the exact opposite of the strong, tall, strapping warriors who men in this age are used to following. All of these faults would be passed onto their children so it wouldn't matter of Tyrion himself or Tyrion Jnr took their seat at Winterfell - a Lannister is a Lannister. They'd be assassinated in short order, or there'd be rebellion and what southron army is going to be able to march north and save them? As soon as winter comes that army would starve, freeze and mutiny, and all the southron lords know this, which is why the north is so difficult to conquer.
To take power in this world you either need legal precedent on your side or you need the armed power necessary to establish new legal precedents just as Aegon did and the Andals before him. Tyrion has a tenuous claim to the former but not the latter.
AMAZING stream! Miki is awesome❤
I was looking forward to this one! I made it to the live stream but I'm battling a cold and fell asleep like 5 minutes in 😢 Garth forgive me, watching now to get caught up
Catching up on the replay. Sansa is my favourite character and loving Miki's take. ❤️ if anyone is interested in another thoughtful take on her, check out my little thought trees video called tge psychology of Sansa Stark.
Great stream!
Great work!
I don't know if I am spoiling the hole book series for myself and everyone else, but when you said that the snow castele of Winterfell inside a snowcastle it made me think...
What if Winterfell is the Heart of Winter?
The hole castle is like a living heart, pumping warm blood. It has a Heart Tree. So does all godswoods, but what if it's THE Heart Tree? The King of Winter lives there, and so on... The Night's King may have been a Stark whose name was Brandon and sleept in the same bed as Bran and so on...
That would explain even more why Bran was so frightened when he saw the Heart of Winter.
The geography of the dream does not really match. North and north from the Wall and beyond the vail of light. But what if he still saw an image of Winterfell there?
I don't know. I have probably thougt this before early on and probably you too. But it is something with the Russian Doll. The castle within a castle, that made me circle back to it again. The fractal nature of the story...
The spirals of madness.
WF is definitely parallel to the HOW, there may be something to what you say
@DavidLightbringer Somthing like that. Maybe Winterfell is the original Nightfort. Rose Bolton is very much like a Night's King possessing Winterfell in the middle of a snowstorm. Binding the other northmen to his will.
Perhaps the crypt is the original cave where Brandon the Builder met the Children of the Forest. Where the Last Hero got his Dragonsteel sword.
Perhaps Winterfell is after all, instead, the Heart of Summer. The living beating warm heart in the middle of the winter...
I think Willas Tyrell wouid actually be a nice match to Sansa. A crippled but good-hearted falconer of eagles *cough*, first son and heir to Highgarden, appreciated by Olenna, described as intelligent, pious and gentle.. Maybe the wolf will marry the rose after all?
Oh, Maya, a bastard, helps the Others cross a barrier? Interesting!
Edit: After listening to the end, and hearing the bit about who Sansa might marry. I do agree she probably won't marry a Lannister again...but...y'all did point out some Jaime-Sansa connections, and that was still percolating in my mind when this topic came up, so I figured I might as well put it out there to see what other minds think.
Edit edit: I should wait 'till the end to comment. Someone else handled it. Nevermind!
indeed!
1:20:30 I predict Sansa will have a parallel scene to Cerci at the Blackwater, but instead, she will actually be a source of comfort and hope.
Maybe while the battle for the dawn rages on, Sansa is taking shelter in the crypts of Winterfell with other people, and she helps to calm everyone down.
.*+ commenting for the sake of commenting +*. cause i missed the stream but thoroughly enjoyed it still
this was great!!
I put it together in the end with the talk of the York + Lancaster marriage between enemies bringing together a new Tudor dynasty. The Lannister marriage obviously came and went as farce, but the same concept could be applied on a larger scale with the marriage between Sansa and one of the order of the Green Men, who seem to be the male version of the CotF. This would be in keeping with the general theme of synthesizing the old and new ways, returning to the more holistic pre-andal nature-oriented green weirwood society represented by the ancient Garth Greenhand esque green man kings. The marriage between half-first man half-andal Sansa and a CotF would usher in a final end to this ancient conflict that made Westeros such a fucked up, war and blood ridden place in the first place, creating a new 'dynasty' in the North with no wall, no Others, and no blood sacrifice, where the weirwoods are a natural healthy green instead of sickly white and red.
Great stream ! Love the flying wolf imagery
Right?! And they chose such a good chapter for it. Watching Miki catch Sansa's 'wings' on the bridge and LmL's reaction was a treat!
Congrats on the new spot.
Ok LB you need to have her on more! This is the best ASOIAF team up ive seen. Shes like a female LB 🫶
Hey David, thank you for all your great videos! I recall you once described the house sigils of the knights of the Vale in connection to Sansa when she was posing as Alayne. I’ve just read the pre-release chapters, and it reminded me of your explanation. Could you help me find the video where you talked about this? Im sorry if you already mentioned it in this particular video, I didn't have the time to watch this yet 🥲
maybe Signs and Portals? that's my best guess
I'll have to watch the rewatch as my grandaughters are here
For Ned, you really can see he had kind of deluded himself that he or his children would not need to be in contact with the south, nor get near it. I think by preparing them for political games would be like accepting that they would be playing the game, not doing anything to pretend nothing will ever happen. I think for Catelyn, it has to do with expectations of a good wife and mother. She has political agency but her years in the North kind of conditioned her to think there is nothing else waiting for her or her children.
George seems to like fun house mirroring his own invented history and real world history. The War of the Roses ended with Lancasters killing off the male line of York and assimilating its female lines through marriage. The Lannisters attempt to do this to house Stark. In the past the Lannister name carried on through an Andal Lord who agreed to take his Lannister wife's family name. Are we going to see this fate ultimately befall House Lannister? Those who don't die, marrying off and taking other houses names?
Ned Stark - his father and brother were burned, then Lyanna died, and all he has to show for it is this 'who is Jon's mother?' tee-shirt?
pretty lame huh
he did get the big black sword
@@DavidLightbringer new tshirt ideas brb
Lovely stream!!
Fantastic stream! Also, my bet for who Sansa will marry is Harrison (Harry) Karstark. Just like the WotR it would unite the cousin houses of Stark and Karstark
Hi, Micky : )
Love the Iðunn stuff :D
Love the theories
Wolf with bat wings seems like a Stark x Whent (via Cat’s parents) ancestry reference
20:58 I recall that Ned and Robert had a poor relationship right after the rebellion because he didn’t approve of Robert’s approval of the Targaryen child murders
I deff see Sansa single and fabulous! With all shes been thru I really don't think she will ever let a man tell her what to do!She can always have a side piece and keep her authonomy. The Queen in the North !!! ❤
This is great. Sansa is one of my favorite characters.
Praise Garth 🎉
I started off as a show watcher. I didn't like the character at all. When I read the books I was like wow she is way more complex
@@Liizardqueen90 seen that be said with several characters. I started out watching S1 and was on the 3rd book by the time I watched S2. It was really cool how my reading overtook the show and gave me a sense of how the books were being adapted for TV. Then i just dove even deeper into the books and by the time I finished ADWD, I was already pointing out differences from the books to my show friends.
@ThommyofThenn 1000% I started watching the series around season 6. I liked the series but found something just missing. Then listened to the books haha then actually read them. I was first time I watched LmL through Quinnsideas. I was so amazed by the depth of the story and his attention to all the detail. I've been hooked ever since haha
@@Liizardqueen90 Another great channel. Most sci-fi I liked was movies and various tabletop /video games so when Quinn's channel showed me a lot of excellent sci-fi books, it was exciting!
@ThommyofThenn When he used to be ideasoficeandfire was my jam. Unfortunately alot of the thing he covers now I don't really get into. I'm usually a non fiction reader but this world I love ❤️
Friendly reminder to like the stream
I'll die on the hill that Robert Baratheon is underrated and over hated.
So much Sansa-love!
Didn't knew Pokimane is a song of ice and fire fan! 😅
Really like the content, but I wish you would edit some of these live streams to shorter videos. I wish I had more time to watch, but sadly need to pay the bills.
Yes!
I thought for sure the betrothal was a Lanister idea. Though i thought of Tywin as being behind it, and making Cercei sugest it to Robert.
Awesome.
Sansa is obviously going to marry Timett son of Timett.
totally forgot to mention this theory!!
Dave didn't do his homework. Faegon and Sansa will not end up together. Sansa's will end up withthe true heir to the vale, and one eyes bachelor Timmet son on Timmet. Her union with Timmet will become a reunification of the vale between the first men, the andals and the moutain clans, creating a unified vale for the first time since the invasion of the andals, and preparing the vale to confront the long night
haha I forgot about Timmet Sansa theory
@@DavidLightbringer no one really is connecting the dots on all interesting things in the vale, not just Timett, but what about his mother? Alys Arryns 4th daughter?
Now it may be easy to dismiss the theories about timett, but then why are the burned men steeped in so much symbolism and lore?
burned men are an offshoot of the painted dogs clan, that worshiped Nettles and sheep stealer, that are firstmen and wildlings from the vale.
Its easy to otherize the mountain clan man as we see them mainly from sansa and tyrion's perspective.
But assuming Timett is the true heir to the vale, his mother was a noble women and an Arryn. While its easy to believe Aly's arryns daughter was simple kidnapped and raped, we actually know per wildling custom, stealing a woman is the custom of wildling marriage. So we should expect that Alys arryn's daughters relationship with Timett father of Timett is actually more complicated, and we should also consider what her experience being stolen and learning to live with the mountain clans might actually have been like for her.
We should also consider how Timetts mother's experience might actually inform us about Sansa and her experience as a captive and persevering through difficult challenges and ultimately gaining agency, and how a relationship with Timmet and his mother might benefit Sansa own jouney to develop agency for herself.
I think most importantly for Sansa, a jouney into the mountains and experiencing the realities of the lives of the firstmen mountain clans might be the exact kind of experience that will help Sansa rediscover her identity as a stark, as well as help prepare her further for the challenges she will face.
Additionally we should consider how this kind of an experience for Sansa would potentially parallel another character own experience and awakening in the wild. Namely Dany's experience in the dothraki sea.
Now just consider what the political implications would be and the political leverage an alliance with the mountain clans would mean for Sansa? and why wouldn't the clans support sansa, the wife of tyrion, their open handed sponsor. Also who better to identity Sansa then Timett, who is jist about the only person in the vale that could and should be able to easily recognize her?
Last bit i mention is that how better for GRRM to show us the fate of Nettles and sheep stealer then to take us into the mountains of the moon and show us the clan of the burned men? Will Sansa encounter the remains of a dragon, if we assume sheep stealer is not still alive.
Sandor is also a "burned dog" that could also be tied to this Theory
@SSolemn Absolutely, I think it is a signal that Timmet will have a relationship with Sansa, Timmet and sandor are bith coded as dogs and burned men. however Timmet is much younger than Sandor and described as attractive, making any relationship Sansa has with him more appropriate.
You said it yourself! Jaime Lannister is her mirror image. They could end up in a political marriage to reconcile Stark and Lannister. If we are going with the War of the Roses parallel.
Sansa and Jaime are not in love ofcause. I hope he strangle Cersei. He loves Brienne but she could have a tragic heroic death, saving the world.