ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- Fellow DD content creator @THEREALSPARTAN and I dive through the entire cast in this 3 part series discussing hero skills. The 2 of us have a lot of collective experience, so diving into the mechanics and history is sure to be a fun time.
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I had to check that post about the Lv 4 Leper getting brought into a champion mission. The OP tried to delete it but the fact that exists is just hilarious.
thank you for those beautiful pieces of content. I still play DD from time to time and waiting untill Abom pops in DD2 so I can finaly buy it :) Lovely to see a person so dedicated to a small game for so many years, thank you for your effort! you are truely The GOAT of Darkest Dungeon
Thank you!
Battlefield Medicine in C tier is the only thing I hard disagree with.
Pierce should be S too
I agree (on the first point). BM was one of the few skills in this video that I find was clearly not properly evaluated. Battlefield Medicine is clearly at least B, I'd argue A, because it does the thing it does better than any other skill, period. The thing that most frequently kills heroes, universally, is a DoT check on 0. Battlefield medicine is the only skill in the game that heals AND cleanses DoT, while also able to target any rank. The fact it self cleanses is a notable buff, and it never needs to be upgraded as another bonus.
Intimidate is my expose.
I was a leper denier until I just started opening every fight with intimidate and took hew off my bar. moving upto 8 speed (occultist speed) puts you well ahead of enemy front liners and the -5 puts you ahead on one backliner. even pink fish goes down to 7 speeds at champion. you just pick a stress caster and they never get a second turn between chip damage and being slower than your backliners.
Then it lets you stall so hard late in a fight because the enemy can't hurt you and it delays the stall warning.
what other move are you running beside this chop and self heal? Why take off hew?
Purge probably
Wyrd Reconstruction is such great skill, nothing better when your houndmaster is on deaths door with mark and getting charged by tentacle devour only for Occultist to throw him 0 heal with bleed on top.
I have lost more people to occultist heals than I have to any enemy in the cove
@@averynewtown2782Arterial pinch is really mood.
@ExtremeMan10 I don't think I've ever really had a big problem with it myself since by the time I see crabs I've always got bandages in the cove but occultist 0 heal bleed can strike anywhere
Hard disagree with the video's rating for Wyrd Reconstruction - it's definitely a tier below Divine Grace. Wyrd Reconstruction literally kills people, and it makes you waste turns when you have to heal twice instead of once.
You have to admit crit 68 heal to full from deaths door is one of the best feelings in the game and then ancestors saying something like “back from the brink!”
Loved that series! You talking about leper camp skills makes me want to see camp skill ranking
I have one! It's one of the popular videos if you click that filter
@@ShuffleFM I think the both of you can provide some intresting precpectice and would like to see if your opinion has changed.
But really, you two made quite the duo and you can talk about literally anything and makeit interesting
Can someone tell me how the new 200 Wendies in Australia will impact the meta ?
+200 Wendies related inns added to DD2
Thanks Shuffle for putting up with me saying we should do this.
It WILL happen again.
I haven't been on board with alot of placements - but the discussion is what is really valuable if someone is willing to take to the time.
Bellow is at least A tier, probably S.
If u run acc trinket + debuff chance trinket it'll have almost 100% chance to succeed and MaA doesn't rly need any other trinkets (in case the debuff trinket is old unit standard, but debuff amulet is ok as well). And -5 to -7 speed almost guarantees all ur characters will act before the enemies for 3 whole turns, giving you speed control, and the dodge debuff is a very nice bonus.
If u stop and analyze the turn order, this change in speed essentially works as a stun, as faster enemies will most probably take 1 fewer turn before they are killed. Example: u use bellow during turn one, now the cultist witch won't act b4 ur Bh, so ur bh kills the cultist witch and she essentially loses a turn, as if she were stunned. Turn order goes from (Witch - Bh - Witch dead) to (Bh - Witch dead), so she was basically stunned and lost her turn, and bellow hits 4 characters, so it is likely u'll gain more "stuns" on other enemies.
Also as MaA will act b4 the enemies the next turn after you use bellow, u essentially played bellow for 0 tempo, as in a way u did not waste a turn using a buff/debuff ability, because you are probably going to act again before the enemies can act, so you can stun turn 2, for example, before the wolverines can act: the turn order goes from (Wolverine - MaA stun - Wolverine - MaA) to (Wolverine - MaA bellow - MaA stun - Wolverine - MaA).
Also it's rly great for stalling fights, as the enemy frontline will have -5 speed.
For downsides, it lasting only 3 turns is a significant downside, as u'll need to replenish it every 2 turns if u want to make sure u keep speed control. Missing bellow is not that big of a problem tbh, and it rarely happens with an acc trinket + debuff trinket, but it'd be nice to be able to run map on MaA or rampart shield.
Anyway, there's no way bellow isn't at least A tier. The crit chance bonus from battle ballad is very small unless u spam aoe attacks (usually only resulting in 1 extra crit per use of battle ballad), and battle ballad doesn't grant u complete speed control unless u use it twice in a row. Also MaA is probably a better character than Jester outisde of the battle ballad/bellow discussion as MaA also has a stun and a guard, so if Battle Ballad is S tier, Bellow must be at least A, considering it gives +7 effective speed compared to +4 from battle ballad.
I can't sing enough praises for this move, low investment and great return, as speed control is probably the best type of control after stuns for a number of reasons, and the 10 acc is very meaningful
Nice explanation
@@ryn193 Thnks!
Yeah, Bellow is amazing! It's basically Battle Ballad, but as a debuff. I often run Debuff Amulet with MaA to make sure Bellow sticks. And oml, MaA's strongest move is between Defender and Bellow. I am genuinely blown away with how someone can put *Retribution*, MaA's most niche skill, above Bellow.
On a hero with high speed, I’d agree with Bellow’s value. Part of what makes Battle Ballad so clutch is that Jester will usually go first & buff your team before their turns. MAA suffers greatly from low speed. His debuff will likely go off after the opps get their first turns. Even his riposte gets far less use for that reason. MAA is the most frustrating hero to me, bc his moves look great until you actually are trying to use him and you remember that speed is king in DD1.
@@scarletsletter4466 u're seeing bellow as an acc boost skill, when in reality bellow is good bcs of its speed change, the acc bonus is just a bonus. When compared to battle ballad, bellow is much better in the speed department, as long as it hits, which is almost always with the correct trinkets. It doesn't matter that MaA is the last character to move, as speed changes will only take effect at the next turn anyway, and the difference of speed buff/debuff from battle ballad and bellow is huge. Bellow is essentially giving u extra turns because of how huge the speed difference is, so u are getting extra acc and control for basically no cost, and u're also essentially getting stress heal, as the enemies that inflict stress will probably use 1 or 2 less stress skills before dying. Also making the enemies act after all ur heroes essentially nullifies the chances for ur heroes to get comboed and killed, as u can almost always heal/guard b4 the enemies can kill ur chacter off in one combo. Not only that, but guard and rampart are insane skills, and MaA has some of the best stats out of any character in the game. I'm not sure I would rate MaA above Jester, but both are top tier characters for sure, maybe top 5 and 6 after hm, pd, occ and hellion (not necessarily in this order)
Expose shouldn`t be on S change my mind
If holy lance is A tier, shouldn't iron swan also be?
This bellow slander shall not be tolerated. Bellow has clutched and allowed stall for recovery + taking away speed and dodge is a powerful effect. I’m bellowing in the comments rn
He protecc, he attacc, and he bellow
I absolutely HAVE been sleeping on Expose, and I'm still not totally sold on it, but I'll try it. I imagine it would be good on the fast half of an Shieldbreaker duo, so you can set up the slow half for a move that hits/crits harder.
Honestly this Spartan fellow has some really controversial statements during this series, including his judgement rant which bugged me the most personally.
@@NikozBG I don't disagree. I feel like Shuffle pulled that back into perspective pretty well. Judgement is a damage move that hits rank 4, the heal is just a bonus.
I live for tierlists of any kind, you could literally post a tierlist on the same game every six months and I would watch it
Hew is a great finishing move. Chop for 25-45ish damage first turn. If that didn’t kill it, hew will take it out and damage the next one over. I have also two shot bosses with chop crits many times. Just stack buffs at the camp site. And bam you have all the crit, accuracy and damage you will ever need on the highest damage character.
Cool that you're still making these. I still return to DD1 when I get the itch. Been playing the Iron Oath to scratch the itch, it's grid based but very similar character system with traits lifted straight from DD, only 8 classes though. LOTR:Tactics is also a favorite. Anyone played those/know more similar turn based strategy games to try?
iratus lord of the dead is a fun game , kinda of similar to DD1 in the combat aspects
Just wanted to say for this last video, certain heroes who are abysmally slow, you can slot Quickdraw Charm on them and they'll pretty reliably go before the shithead enemies you really want to get to. In this case, it would allow you to hit Musketeers Skeet Shot, or Lepers Intimidate on stealthed enemies for your other heroes to hit afterwards; it could also go on Crusader to hit a fat crit on Holy Lance turn 1 (Focus Ring for fun). Hell, put it on Leper for a fat Hew double crit.
Quick draw allows your slower, heavy hitters to go when they need to to control the fight hardcore, and really helps some moves shine
What did focus on leper do? Im very curious and cant find anything on it.
I'm glad you're not evangelizing Bonk Vestal, as much as I love the name, but I keep hearing about how good it is from others. With Profane Scroll, she sorta deals backline damage as a frontliner which is cool but nothing to get excited about. If you want her to deal real damage, she has to ramp up with a few Hand of Lights and the amount of times you can actually do that when she either needs to heal or could stun is so low.
I once ran her rank 2 with Profane mostly because I wanted two backliners on that particular mission but was missing a lot of heals... I forgot to switch her skills away from rank 4 vestal and I probably performed better than when I normally run her rank 2 just cause there was never even temptation to press anything other than stun
Add me to the list of “I never used hands from the abyss until I watched your videos” group
Hands from the abyss is TWO tiers above Blackjack. Hits the same targets, can be used from the same ranks, identical stun chance, roughly same DMG output. BJ has 5% more ACC and like 4% less CRIT without the -5 torch. Occultist simps.
Occultist can hit 220% stun chance and hands hits pretty hard with good crit. Demon's cauldron is also insanely good. The torch penalty doesn't matter :P
Yeah they aren’t even comparable
You have to consider letting them sit at that position, what other moves do they are. The Indian guy has a lot more at 2 compare to hound
@@haoyangsun3278 That is just a lie. The only move OCC cannot use is ceiling spagetti, the only move HM cannot use is the stress heal. Also, if you were to dance HM back to rank 3 it would still work out fine, cuz you do not need different trinketing for the stress heal. HM is a super flexible hero, and that doesn't change in rank 2.
@mestermariann3570 yeah nah. I mean you can play however you want. Occu just feels a lot better at 2. Maybe because higher dodge too I don't know. Hm is pretty good I just don't like to run his stun. There's way more better stuns
C tier disorienting blast has to be the hottest take. Same tier as grapeshot btw. Theoretically I get why blinding gas is a better skill since it stuns 2. But if youre building teams that can effectively target the backline, you can nuke down one of the backline then corpse clear and move the other backline to the front on turn 1. It also stuns rank 2 as a cherry on top so you dont have to bring another stunner. A tier imo.
If I have a slow team (but who wants that), blinding gas but if I have a fast time disorienting blast 💯
It is literally a better version or flashbang if we consider trinkets
@@ElfosDeMordor true but its the corpse clear that makes it so good
@@jshwanTTV That's what I mean, disorienting blast is better, so it should be at least equal tier to flashbang - which is in A - supposing we are ignoring the context of the character when rating a skill, which most of the tier list seems to be doing - what I mean is like ignoring the characters' other skills and stats when rating a certain skill.
If we, instead, consider the context that Pd can use disorienting gas, but she already has a better stun, then maybe we could justify putting disorienting blast lower than flashbang, but then we would also need to consider that PD is much, much better than BH, so the ratings would be up to more discussion
@@ElfosDeMordoryeah you really can't buff BH's support skills too much. I mean why we are putting hands from abyss s tier? Because you simply can buff it to ridiculous degrees with trinkets.
Do you realize how many times your voice cuts out in this when you talk softly? It was mainly in this video (part 3). I was surprised nobody else mentioned it, so I wanted to make sure you were aware. It seems like your mic threshold might have been too high maybe. While the pacing was a bit hard to get through (so much off-topic banter making long videos even longer), but the info was fantastic. Both of you have a ton of knowledge on the game, and it was great to compare notes with how I do things. There's always a different perspective that it pays to listen to. Thanks!
1:14:15 he had to walk away so he could uncontrollably scream about how much he hates musketeer, free of judgement from his friend & viewers.
there should have been a musket-tier
Shuffle, here is an idea: try doing a stygian run with only unusable, D and C tier skills
I watched every minute of all 3 of these videos. I like darkest dungeon a little too much.
Good little mini series here.
I have one problem with Hand of Light:
Why does the move, that is supposed to support the Vestal's Mace Bash, has more (actually 1% more but nevertheless) crit rate than the Mace Bash itself?! Just - WHY?
God, I hate the heat and summer as well. Bring on the frosty weather.
Leper with the crimson curse, revenge, an accuracy and speed trinket and a plus 2 speed quirk and slugger is filthy. Its just unreasonably strong lol
Any dps character that gets natural swing is a godsend
1:47:24 yes, Disturbed still makes music
I actually think if anything, Vestal gets too much hate these days. The days, back when people were complaining about her being needed on every team, are over. The pendulum has swung, but I feel way too far. Now almost every pro player says you should barely run Vestal, something I heavily disagree with.
Why are festering vapours in A tier? It's literally worse poison darts.
It's on a different character with a different job
blasphemous vial + bloody herb?
These two guys just say “I totally agree” after everything the other guy says.
Leper being the protagonist after the academic and ancestor would be a wet dream come true
Great Video Shuffle
1:47:17 this is my favorite part of the video, the monotonous "oo a a a a" is killing me lmaoo
Vestal's judgement is great. Seems to heal a lot of Stress. Snipes all ranks, decent dmg.
Accuracy is bad though, 80 base, so you either give up trinketing for stun or healing to accommodate for consistent hits with judgement.
if hew is B then grapeshot should be S lmao
Nah
@@ShuffleFM Hew is B because leper damage. If leper has a grapeshot then immediate S tier
Dammit now i want the forbidden knowledge too
This tier list kinda makes me want to make a "balance" patch where I would try to improve all skills below B tier to be more usable. So far I have no idea how to mod Darkest Dungeon, how the changes should actually look or anything, but maybe I will find the time and motivation to actually do that.
Thanks Shuffle and Spartan for these hours of interesting and inspiring content.
Thanks for watching! The Red Hook discord and a few of the other community ones can help with modding. I don't have links on hand so I apologize for that.
@@ShuffleFM Thanks Shuffle, I will check it out. I also saw a community post on steam by Red Hook.
I guess these means I should rewatch the three videos to take some notes.
@@ShuffleFM I made a first test version called "DD1 Rebalanced" where I made some changes to the Abom and the Arbalest (not Musketeer). I would be happy for any feedback.
What about the Blinding gas+Incision combo? You shuffle a unit to the front then butcher it.
1:08:51 You can do that with command still
I endorse Leper
POG!
POG!
wendeez nutz.😂
Revenge is a good move and terrible at the same time. You should always be attacking. Leper is chop. You should be chopping and hewing all day unless you need to heal yourself or protect someone.
prerecorded
It is saddening how the current trend with content creators is to lie with their thumbnails in order to get people to click into these videos. It really can make someone think that they have some new approach to how the game is played, different to all of those other Tier List videos, only to advance the video and discover that it is the same stuff. Truly bad state that this platform is in, these days. Time wasted.
Wtf are you yapping about?
@@jaasonjones4419he’s right you know…
bro took the long road to cry
I don't think it's fair to say time wasted just because I put a joke in the thumbnail. Considering the majority of viewers are going to click to the end and never even watch the video, it's a good trade off between me and the viewer. Also it's never a good idea to put the real tier list in the thumbnail because no one will watch.
I thought this was a bit but then i read it and realized he is just dumb