Is it just me that would love to drive that car? Well, as long as it had that seat suspension! Do subscribe, we are so close to 600K so would greatly appreciate it!
Scott you are brilliant mate. Always the best content. Honestly these videos are more interesting the F1 😂 but seriously though 😁 thank you for all the great videos
It is about how he uses the throttle and brakes. He is very gentle on corner exit and entry. There might also be differences in how he attacks a corner, but i haven't seen a big difference between him and others in steering.
he struggled financially in the junior categories and would use the same rubber for multiple events, and has learned to be gentle on his tires. that knowledge was put to good use in the current regulation era and comes to him as second nature. at least its what i heard.
@@petarkostesic8570 That story wouldn't be too dissimilar from how Ronaldinho achieved such advanced control over the ball barefooted because his late father couldn't afford shoes for him.
@@NikoKyunKyun No, it's basically rock solid. The inside only has pads for driver's legs so they don't get injured from hitting the inside of the cockpit.
We can make a seat with more cushions instead... Just look at American short track off road racing like in the Stadium Super Trucks - if these trucks and drivers can take these jumps, an F1 can take curbs and potholes with no suspensions. That doesn't they should. However, I'm not sure if there would be a great gain in a race because driveability is an issue. What is the point of gaining a second of lap (let's assume it is that big) if it quadruple the chance to go off track? And increase the chances of blowing a tire? Also, if there is an actual gain, and if it is legal (I'm not even sure if it is legal): the FIA would end up mandating minimum suspension loads because drivers are going to complains a lot (as they should). You need some level of consistency in F1 to win championships...
I seem to remember reading somewhere how the Jones-Williams conversation continued; when Jones suggested suspension on the seat Williams said "maybe you can use your wallet as a cushion" to which Jones replied "that would only work if you would give me something to put inside it"
@@har234908234 no, they were like this. Frank Williams even said that Alan Jones was a salvage (Alan Jones was Australian, Frank (rip) was British). They had this kind of funny relationship
Thank you! While I was stunned while watching this video and thought I was losing my mind. I'm kind of astounded by the inaccurate info as well as the fact that so few seem to notice it.
The time lost from having to avoid the kerbs would be huge on some circuits. With the current high wall tyres it would be bad enough but with the low profile tyres being introduced for 2022 this would only get worse as the tyres are a big percentage of an F1 cars shock absorption.
@@brightmatter4383 I guess so but then I’m not an F1 engineer. They will surly have a more stable and predictable tyre with the smaller walls. Maybe @driver61 could do a video on this as it would be pretty interesting.
Misconception: weight transfer is not eliminated with no suspension. The time it takes for weight transfer to occur is almost eliminated when suspension is removed. As long as the center of mass is above the contact patch, there will be weight transfer due to the torque applied when cornering, braking, and accelerating, when talking about cars.
Very true. Big mistake by him.But if your center of mass was bellow your contact patch you would still have load transfer just in the opposite direction... Still I am finding funny imagining how you could have the center of mass bellow the contact patch. Like two rails with a cabin between the rails perhaps...
Thank you! While I was stunned while watching this video and thought I was losing my mind. I'm kind of astounded by the inaccurate info as well as the fact that so few seem to notice it.
Went into the comments to see who caught this first. Springs have no affect on total load transfer outside of the minuscule results of how they may allow the CG, wheelbase, or track width to alter during roll and pitch. The only items that affect total lateral and longitudinal load transfer are CG height, track width, and wheelbase. Springs, dampers, arb's, etc. have no ability to increase or decrease load transfer, but they do allow you to adjust the distribution and rate.
At the Hillclimb this year I was talking to one of the guys with Randy Pobst’s Tesla and they had their Tesla set up so the aero at 130mph+ the aero was strong enough the suspension was fully compressed therefore solid. So for me this video is pretty good timing lol.
The weight transfer is the same. The transient weight transfer is less. Basically, the dampers resist fast weight transfer and that results in a temporary increase in the load at the tire contact patch. Once the suspension settles as you mentioned, the weight transfer is identical to a vehicle with no suspension.
Pretty sure Martin Brundle has mentioned that Ligier used to do this at the Mangny Cours grand prix too. That track is super flat and they had some of their best performances there as a result.
That's why race cars are generally stiff but not all the time stiff: They have to take into account the bumps and elevation changes too so that the tires lose less grip going over them, but stiff enough that weight distribution is as equal as possible through all four times
Removing suspension doesn't reduce weight transfer. Weight transfer is function of CoG and track width and wheelbase. Suspension reduce the speed at which weight transfer happens, no suspension means weight transfer is instantaneous.
Totally agree! I was surprised when he mentioned that. Ok, you might say that some deviation of CG position might attribute to additional weight transfer, but that's really a small difference.
@@pjay3028 Because it's a simple analogy that is sort of kind of half true. For example, if you stiffen (or in this case, LOCK) the suspension just on the rear, the rear tires are now going to take a larger percentage of the weight transfer in cornering. The total weight transfer is the same but the rear is forced to take more of it, thus inducing oversteer. I hate half truths because they lead to misunderstandings like this
@@wingracer1614 but what you describe is actually the exact opposite of what was said in the video, so rather than a half truth it's more like a whole lie! 😂
The amount of load transfer is NOT changing without suspension, it is only related to CoG height, trackwidth and lateral acceleration! A car without suspension has no option to setup lateral load transfer distribution between front and rear axle and may end up being slower in terms of mechanical grip. All it changes is the roll rate to a near infinit value, depending on chassis and tire stiffness.
Thank you! While I was stunned while watching this video and thought I was losing my mind. I'm kind of astounded by the inaccurate info as well as the fact that so few seem to notice it.
Actually you can still adjust lateral load distribution front to rear on a car with no suspension. You can change front or rear track width, static weight distribution or tire pressures. This is basically how you setup a go kart.
Sorry but weight transfer is almost only dependent on CoG height, track width and/or wheelbase and the acceleration you are experiencing. Soft setup makes it more visible but it occurs on no suspension as well. And you need to be more careful with no suspension since there is not much early sign before loosing grip. If you increase roll stiffness and spring rate too much on front axle, you get more understeer and the same for rear axle. But you are absolutely right about upsetting aero with pitch and roll
The most important comment on this video. Cheers, Kumquat! Being extremely rigorous, suspension movement can indeed influence load transfer, but only on high travel suspensions (where the CG ends up moving horizontally). Not really on a road racing car, and certainly not on a F1 car. Where suspension rigidity takes an important role, is in how fast the load transfer occur, meaning: the transient state. The final load transfer (after reaching a steady state during a corner) is the same, no matter the rigidity. All the effects commented by Scott (during the weight transfer part) are due to that difference in transient state. For example: a soft sprung car won't be able to load the outside tire as fast as a stiff one. So a quick steering input won't have an increased vertical load through the outside tire to rely on, making the car feeling sluggish. If you are patient to wait for the load to finish transferring, it will have the same lateral acceleration as a stiffer car. @Driver61, nice video once again, nonetheless.
If anithing you would loose the ability to transfer weight from front to back during lateral acceleration by ditching antiroll bars. They are an important part of the setup in creating oversteer, understeer or neutral handling. I wonder how that would affect handling.
Your remark @4:00 on "having no weight transfer in a car without suspension" is wrong, but it is a very common misconception. A suspension slows down weight transfer during the transient phase of cornering. Once the suspension settles during cornering, the only thing that dictates weight transfer will be the height of the CG and the dimensions of the car - once the car is settled it doesn't matter if there is suspension or not. This was part of my university thesis BTW. What I think you are talking about is the "overshoot" phenomena on underdamped systems, because usually the roll of the car is not critically damped.
That's what I was thinking. If there was no weight transfer on an unsprung car, all tires would have the same load regardless of accelerarion or cornering, which obviously is not true. Really confused why this channel would say a mistake like this??
@@Catrik some racedrivers seem to use the term "weight transfer" and "overshoot" interchangeably, although that is wrong IMO. I have seen this mistake even on some old books about suspension design and tuning, which is quite confusing... To clarify to others: cars with soft suspensions generally have a lot of roll. During the transient phase of the roll, the inertia of the rolling chassis can temporarily cause a weight transfer to the outside wheels which is bigger than the weight transfer happening when the suspension is settled, as the roll angle stops changing during cornering. The chassis rolls more than it would roll under quasi-static loading - this phenomena is called overshoot. This overshoot is very hard to predict for unexperienced drivers, and can make the car "snappy", suddenly losing traction on corner entry, if not driven smoothly (as correctly pointed by Scott on the video). This overshoot is one of the reasons that a lot of inexperienced drivers will install stiff suspensions to their daily-drivers thinking it will make their car faster - the actual mechanical grip generated by a stiff suspension is generally worse (there's a video from Engineering Explained on the subject) - but a car with a somewhat stiff suspension is generally easier to handle, because there's no overshoot (along with other factors), giving more confidence to the inexperienced driver, which makes him go faster - a psychological performance bump, rather than improving the vehicle's actual performance.. (I am completely ignoring aero effects here of course)
Also the flex in the chassis. From an engineering perspective, everything is a spring. These 'springs' are undamped and very stiff relative to traditional suspension, though, which is where the bump issues come into play.
@@MegaNardman exactly, this is why karts work! The chassis is the spring, you can actually tune this "spring" through things to adjust chassis stiffness like additional bars or even a softer seat material. Something I think this channel should make a video on!
@@mehmetkara2752 You have hit the nail on the head. I think it would be a great video. I don’t think many people realize how much tuning can go into a kart chassis. If they watch a wet race they probably pick up on the front wheels having a wide track and the rear having a narrow track but that is about it. To do karts justice i think a few videos would be in order any ideas on how to get him to do it ?
I feel sad knowing I was born after the days of peak F1 innovations and crazy experimentations like this. The biggest F1 changes during my time watching it have been the beginning of turbo hybrids and the Halo.
@@kpsig it's certainly impressive but the hybrid concept wasn't as fresh as some of the older innovations of F1 that later trickled down to road cars. And none of the teams will ever dare to execute quirky ideas like some teams had in the past thanks to cost caps and a more profit oriented business model of Formula 1 compared to just a couple of decades or so ago.
Very surprised not to see mention of the LOTUS 88 - sprung chassis within a hardly sprung chassis. Different, I know (it was to help the skirts) but surely worth a mention in this context.
Brilliant series of F1 videos. But please may I question the the remark "lack of body movement also allows for less weight transfer". The weight transfer in turning is a function of the height of the centre of gravity above the ground and the track width - best understood by drawing a simple 'free body diagram' to show the forces which must resolve themselves with more upward force on the outer wheel turning (or forward wheels in braking) so that the moment around the CG is zero. The spring rates, anti roll bars (if used) and the torsional stiffness of the chassis all contribute to the extent to which the transfer of weight is shared between front and rear wheels (with corresponding influence on oversteer/understeer) but not the actual weight transfer.
Steady state weight transfer still occurs and the total amount remains unchanged (at same lateral acceleration) unless you alter ride height. Without springs, the elastic component of the weight transfer just occurs at less roll, because the spring rates are higher (in the case of an infinitely stiff spring it just occurs instantly), and the geometric component of the weight transfer remains unchanged as well.
Thanks a lot for all you very thoughtful explanations. One interesting factor explaining why current formula 1 suspension are very stiff is also the current tires. The size and shape of the current tires are acting as an additional suspension. It absorbs shocks by deformation and enable teams to design and setup very stiff suspensions. The new 18’ tires may force teams to design softer suspensions by the way. Hope you exceed 600k followers soon !
Far less weight transfer without suspension? Doesn't make sense. Weight transfer is majorly a function of COG height, thus, removing the suspension should very minutely affect total weight transfer. With suspension the increase could be from the COG arm due to roll, then due to some roll inertia being settled, and not aware of what more but the above mentioned cover the most big things that will make the difference Would love an explanation. Cheers
You are right, Tushar. I'll just copy my comment from another answer: Being extremely rigorous, suspension movement can indeed influence load transfer, but only on high travel suspensions (where the CG ends up moving horizontally). Not really on a road racing car, and certainly not on a F1 car. Where suspension rigidity takes an important role, is in how fast the load transfer occur, meaning: the transient state. The final load transfer (after reaching a steady state during a corner) is the same, no matter the rigidity. All the effects commented by Scott (during the weight transfer part) are due to that difference in transient state. For example: a soft sprung car won't be able to load the outside tire as fast as a stiff one. So a quick steering input won't have an increased vertical load through the outside tire to rely on, making the car feeling sluggish. If you are patient to wait for the load to finish transferring, it will have the same lateral acceleration as a stiffer car. @Driver61, nice video once again, nonetheless.
@@heitooooor Ah yes Heiter. Thanks for your input. Indeed as the transfer rate is affected so depending upon the type of steering input, we can say for a given maneuver that load transfer will be less. For example if it's a chicane, so fast such that the tyres aren't loaded in the first turn in, then yes it absolutely makes sense. Thanks a lot for the answer! :)
Very, very interesting videos! I'm not much into cars but I'm a delivery cyclist and your videos help me get faster because I can understand much better logic and physics of racing. Thank you, keep up the awesome work!
Saying the car doesn't have weight transfer because it doesn't have suspension makes zero sense. That's just not how physics work. That is reliant on the center of gravity. Also everything on that car is a spring the chassis, the tires, etc. Plus weight transfer occurs whether you got a spring or not. A force applied that is effectively pushing down or up on an area doesn't have to have movement period. I can lay a brick on a flat piece of concrete and put a load on the front half and it will have front biased weight distribution even if no movement has occured. Same principle here but movement car occur. One way or another something is absorbing those shocks that energy doesn't go no where so it's the chassis and tires instead of controlled dampening instead of possibly getting a resonance.
For me the best and performing suspensions, seen in Formula One, will be the "active suspension" installed on the Williams FW14B, which raced in 1992. Nigel Mansell will win in the 92 "drivers and constructors championship. With the Italian Riccardo Patrese. Simple and effective. Even the" coca cola "area was tapered for the best aerodynamic performance. The FW14B will be nicknamed" the car that came from another planet. "The FW14B, for me, will be the most amazing car I've ever seen in formula one. And, for me, it was the safest, with semi-automatic gearbox, Traction Control, ABS. massive thanks for your videos help for understanding well . See you until next video . Have a good one and nice day . looking good Bro' . Cheers 🤗
3:38 - Ok so that’s very wrong. Suspension stiffness and body roll do not decrease or in crease weight transfer. That’s a big misunderstanding of how weight transfer works. You can change the vertical load distribution in a corner only relative to the front and rear by either stiffening or softening one axle relative to the other axle, but you cannot change the actual total weight transfer of a car in a corner by stiffening your suspensions. That’s just not how the physics work. In other words, for a given ride height and track width, the weight transfer of a car with or without suspensions will be virtually the same, because body roll has no significant effect on weight transfer. Hope this helps.
Suspension stiffness should not have an impact on weight transfer (in steady state cornering), only on the roll-angle at which it occurs. Ride-height (COG-height) on the other hand does, as you mentioned. Also besides the chassis-flex, tire-flex is a major part of an axles overall compliance (being a rather soft spring themselves (everything is a spring :-)) I think William F. Milliken once said: "Every type of suspension works if you don't let it"
The suspension on the seat that Alan Jones suggested was tried once on a racing motorcycle. The wheels were rigidly attached to the chassis and the engine, fuel tank and rider were suspended within the chassis. It worked but it was a low budget project at clubman level and was never developed further.
Speaking of suspension I recently noticed something odd on the Red Bull cars and their steering. When I was watching Max on the warmup lap from the TV camera view I noticed that when he turned side to side when warming the tires "the whole front suspension pivots" around a central point. The wheels not only turn around the kingpin axis, on the ball joints, the whole upper wishbone seems to move as though pivoting. Have you seen anything like it before. Has anyone. Is it new or old. I have only just got access to the camera view of my choice and have never noticed it before. I have never heard of such a thing except in billy carts but maybe I am just out of date. If curious check out the Red Bulls on the warm up lap from the driver view camera, the one looking over the shoulder of the driver.
Active suspension is a fluid and pressurized air control suspension, basically as if the whole car is one huge shock absorber... these suspensions were inspired by ambulance suspensions in the 70's. The first F1 to use this on a track was the LOTUS 92 on December 16, 1982, curiously the day of death of Colin Chapman who took care of the project at Lotus. The first F1 to win races with an active suspension was the Lotus 99T with Ayrton Senna in Monaco and Detroit, in the same year in 1987 Nelson Piquet with the Williams FW11B in Monza had the first victory using the active suspension that came to be commercialized in the model. Lotus Esprit Turbo 1983 street... what changed in the improvement for the FW14B were the processing capabilities and sensor readings per minute... Remember that Frank Williams took the team that took care of the Lotus suspension project with Chapman, as the new Lotus manager did not give priority to the project and it was the gap for Frank to absorb the professionals.
Yo that was a good question right at the end there. What if we could put suspension in the seat, would we get the perfect racing car or an abomination?
There are some basic concpt mistakes on this video. The first and most important is that he says weight transfers depends on suspension stiffness. It doesn't, the weight transfer is determined by cg height and track of the vehicle (and lateral acceleration). This means if a infinit rigid suspension does gives you more grip it is not by reducing weight transfer.
You kinda of mentioned it a little bit at the end of your Video but the forces that must now be absorbed by the chassis are enormous and will cause structural failure much sooner than on a car with suspension and that is actually one of the main reasons a suspension-less car will not work!
Question 1. Am I correct in thinking that there would be a fine line between a properly suspended seat and the driver felling like he is driving from a hammock? Question 2. Thinking about seat suspension; Is there no compressible structure under the current F1 seats? I understand the C.G. aspect but wouldn't that help to reduce back injuries from vertical loads? Thanks for the great videos!
Body roll =/= amount of weight transfer. Amount of lateral weight transfer is dictated by CoG height, track width and lateral accel. Not suspension stiffness. Page 1 of any vehicle dynamics book.
Damn Williams went from such innovation to the back of the grid… things seem to be heading in the right direction now and I hope one day they challenge for titles and wins again
0:35 I can't believe a pro driver repeats such mistakes. Tyre contact patch has NOTHING to do with grip per se. It only becomes relevant when thermal properties and 'brush' characteristics of rubber are in place.
You're right, but the whole story is far too complex to put in one youtube video. The main point here was: if there is no contact there can be no grip, regardless of other factors in play.
Besides keeping the rubber on the tarmac you need the suspension to decouple vibrations from the car and the ground. If you get any vibration from the tarmac or the engine resonate your aerodevices would vibrate too. These vibrations can cause a laminar flow of air to get turbulent, which would cause an instant loss in downforce. As we have eliminated suspension the car can't regulate it's hight and would start to jump. So i doubt it would be faster as you had do stay off any curb. Also you can't completely eliminate suspension as the air in the tire does most of the suspension work in an F1 car. You just need the additional spring damper elements to keep sure you stay out of increasing vibration or jumps of the chassis.
I love how alot of the most genious ideas ever in F1 history that the FIA banned were made by williams in the 80's and 90's but these days they struggle getting into Q2
NASCAR teams did something similar in 2006-2007 with coil binding. They’d set up their cars so that at speed the springs would be fully compressed, meaning the suspension would not move and the tires became the suspension.
You said that lack of body roll causes less weight transfer and also that no suspension results in far less weight transfer. I'd have thought that the bulk of the weight transfer was from the lateral force acting on the CG rather than the very small lateral movement of the CG to the outside caused by body roll (I don't think the CG will move vertically much because the roll centre is below the CG in all sensible cars, so it should actually go down by a very small amount). I think it's a misunderstanding that the weight transfer is caused by the roll, as the roll is a reaction to the lateral forces and the lateral forces will remain and hence so will the weight transfer, even with no suspension and no roll. I think in Williams's case, it was all about ride height as they were getting rid of sliding skirts, and nothing to do with weight transfer. I think they used springs in 1981, but Alan Jones's back was already feeling the pain by then, which persuaded him to retire.
How does curbs help to get more grip and speed? Also how does car touching the road and scraping doesn’t slow it down with all the friction and damage the car?
In the 80s, When Touring Cars cars were very fast (yes, not quite as fast as today) - a number of track records were held by 250cc Superkarts (no suspension).
I think body roll is a minor contributor to weight transfer on a race car. The center of gravity is not that much higher than the roll axis. Centripetal force and the height of center of gravity causes the majority of weight transfer.
Williams seems to have lost alot of innovation and competitiveness when Frank turned over the management to his daughter. Now that she has stepped down, hopefully the team can make a strong comeback. It's sad to see such a historic team struggling out there on the track...
While there may be less weight transfer due to no roll, the weight transfer would be faster and overall grip of 2 front or rear tires for side bite would be less?
Exactly, dude has no clue what he is talking about. Softness, or even absence of suspension has no effect (except absolutely minimum amount from a slightly shifting CoG) on weight transfer. There are only two things that affect weight transfer - CoG and track width/wheelbase.
was just about to comment the same. Equilibrium of moments... Suspension only change the distribution of the load transfer and the behaviour and movement of the chassis (that can change masse distribution but it is minimal). My confidence on his conclusions just dropped instantly. A very common mistake by people starting to learn vehicle dynamics and show very few knowledge in vehicle dynamics...
@@BerTav I didn't do physics, but I don't think suspension even changes the distribution of the load transfer. Stiff anti-roll bars I think speed up the rate of load transfer, so I suppose suspension does that to some degree. But with suspension, it is about maintaining the right contact patch, and/or preventing geometry changes to the suspension. There is also the possibility of lowering the car if it has stiffer suspension (which definitely has an impact on load transfer). But more importantly stiffly sprung cars just feel more connected to the road.
@@projectilequestion The relation of stiffness of the axels changes the distribution of load transfer. If you stiffen the front axle then you increase the percentage of load transfer in the front and decrease in the rear. The total remains the same but the distribution amongst the 2 axles is changed by the relation of stiffnesses of both axles. That's why for example you increase rear axle stiffness (with ARB or springs) when the car is understeering. That way more of the load transfer happens on the rear and less on the front increasing grip in the front and damaging a bit of the grip in the rear.
As an engineer i am screaming, you just move the flexural strength and resistance to torsion into the body rather than the spring. It just sounds like damage and wear on the chassis
5:02 absolutely not. A lower center of gravity doesnt give them anything on the straigths and as the car brakes the rear rises bringing the center of gravity to where it was. The reason they do that is first because of the aero load increasing that much which forces the car to 'squat', which is ineviteble. Why they set it up to touch the ground on the straits is to stall the diffuser which reduces drag. Williama did that with their active suspension where they had a button to drop the car on the road to stall the diffuser
What about Gokarts? Arent even the professional level ones with no suspension at all? I'm asking this because I'm currently making one that's a cross between 125cc kart and a midget race car in terms of dimensions but with no suspension, it will be used as a track day toy.
Simple, just like a bike without suspension is faster because the power goes straight to the back tires, but with suspension it wiggles around and the power is lost because of the suspension. That’s the simple explanation.👍🏼 But in a bumpy trail a suspension bike will go faster because it doesn’t bounce as much as the bike without suspension, and because the bike without suspension will loose the power it sent to the back wheels
On smooth track but with good set of suspension with hi and low speed compression i will be same but on not so smooth track you will definitely feel cause instead of suspension soaking up the bumps the whole car will bounce that will affect it. Modern cars with modern suspension do what's best.
I had ohlins road and track coilovers on stiffest once and there are so much vertical Gs, it was throwing me out of seat over bumps, slight ramps, and felt nauseous after a 20min drive, can't imagine without suspension. Stiffer the suspension the flatter road is required. Otherwise tire lose grip without any travel. And if you hit a bump while cornering, it's over. That's why stiff away bars is not a good idea on road. Regular roads are crap for suspension
Sorry but the weight transfer part is not correct The total weight transfer is always the same … (provided consistent Geometry) Only the distribution can be changed between the wheels … Furthermore tire squats influence is way more significant than chassis stiffness (concerning body movements)
Is it just me that would love to drive that car? Well, as long as it had that seat suspension!
Do subscribe, we are so close to 600K so would greatly appreciate it!
Scott you are brilliant mate. Always the best content. Honestly these videos are more interesting the F1 😂 but seriously though 😁 thank you for all the great videos
Would love to, but I prefer my back not to be broken
Suspensions are for the week .
So they didn't experiment further with seat suspension?
It's a big Racing Kart. No Suspension racing karts have tremendous cornering power, but do require very smooth pavement.
Can you make a video explaining how sergio perez maintains his tyres so well...is it a unique driving style or just setup?
Yes please!!
It is about how he uses the throttle and brakes. He is very gentle on corner exit and entry. There might also be differences in how he attacks a corner, but i haven't seen a big difference between him and others in steering.
he struggled financially in the junior categories and would use the same rubber for multiple events, and has learned to be gentle on his tires. that knowledge was put to good use in the current regulation era and comes to him as second nature. at least its what i heard.
@@petarkostesic8570 That story wouldn't be too dissimilar from how Ronaldinho achieved such advanced control over the ball barefooted because his late father couldn't afford shoes for him.
@@petarkostesic8570 didn't Kamui Kobayashi teach him "tyre whispering" during their time at Sauber
If there is no suspensions in f1 now, they should bring spare spinal cords just in case
Elon is probably working on it with neural net implant. 😯
LoL!
the seat already reduce the movement right?
@@NikoKyunKyun No, it's basically rock solid. The inside only has pads for driver's legs so they don't get injured from hitting the inside of the cockpit.
We can make a seat with more cushions instead...
Just look at American short track off road racing like in the Stadium Super Trucks - if these trucks and drivers can take these jumps, an F1 can take curbs and potholes with no suspensions.
That doesn't they should.
However, I'm not sure if there would be a great gain in a race because driveability is an issue. What is the point of gaining a second of lap (let's assume it is that big) if it quadruple the chance to go off track? And increase the chances of blowing a tire?
Also, if there is an actual gain, and if it is legal (I'm not even sure if it is legal): the FIA would end up mandating minimum suspension loads because drivers are going to complains a lot (as they should).
You need some level of consistency in F1 to win championships...
My back already feels broken just by looking at that title
Tell that to the genius who installed rumble strips on my local Kart track
@@yogurt636 you've clearly never gone onto a sausage kerb
@@yogurt636 back = ruined
i still have a healing wound on my back from 2 weeks ago because the seat rubbed to much
maybe you could stick suspension under the seat like in a lorry, though that would probably feel really shit to drive in
Hopefully Williams can discover their crafty championship form for next year again.
A completely different team.
This is the second time the Williams family vowed out of its team management.
The first time was to Walter Wolf.
I seem to remember reading somewhere how the Jones-Williams conversation continued; when Jones suggested suspension on the seat Williams said "maybe you can use your wallet as a cushion" to which Jones replied "that would only work if you would give me something to put inside it"
You can find the video of this test on youtube with the full conversation. It was something like that.
The Rejection Burn.
I always wondered if that was scripted for camera or just great repartee.
Excellent
@@har234908234 no, they were like this. Frank Williams even said that Alan Jones was a salvage (Alan Jones was Australian, Frank (rip) was British). They had this kind of funny relationship
Driver : Suspension seat?
Engineers : Too heavy, have this rubber ring.
Driver : It’s a kids swimmi-
Engineers : Exactly!
3:40 NO! The weight transfer still happens with infinitely stiff springs, it just happens instantly! This is a year 1 FS team rookie mistake!
Thank you! While I was stunned while watching this video and thought I was losing my mind. I'm kind of astounded by the inaccurate info as well as the fact that so few seem to notice it.
by Laws of physics: CORRECT.
You get what he meant buddy
The time lost from having to avoid the kerbs would be huge on some circuits. With the current high wall tyres it would be bad enough but with the low profile tyres being introduced for 2022 this would only get worse as the tyres are a big percentage of an F1 cars shock absorption.
I wonder if springs will need to be run softer for 2022 to make up for the smaller tyre side walls.
@@brightmatter4383 I guess so but then I’m not an F1 engineer. They will surly have a more stable and predictable tyre with the smaller walls. Maybe @driver61 could do a video on this as it would be pretty interesting.
@@brightmatter4383 Most definitely. Tunes should be more specific because they aren't washed out by the spring rate of the tire wall as much
I wonder if we are going to see cars avoiding kerbs anyway in 2022 due to the need to keep underbody airflow constant.
using no suspension car on monaco, baku, or singapore
expectation: ended up on podium/win
reality: ended up in hospital
Imagine riding a kerb 😳
😆
MazeSpin evolved into MazeFlight!
@@gtsportmannen9214 RIP your teeth lol
Shifter karts:P
Hahahahaahahahahah
Misconception: weight transfer is not eliminated with no suspension. The time it takes for weight transfer to occur is almost eliminated when suspension is removed. As long as the center of mass is above the contact patch, there will be weight transfer due to the torque applied when cornering, braking, and accelerating, when talking about cars.
Very true. Big mistake by him.But if your center of mass was bellow your contact patch you would still have load transfer just in the opposite direction... Still I am finding funny imagining how you could have the center of mass bellow the contact patch. Like two rails with a cabin between the rails perhaps...
@@BerTav with this 😝 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_railway
@@euquievolinho2525 perfection 😂👌
Thank you! While I was stunned while watching this video and thought I was losing my mind. I'm kind of astounded by the inaccurate info as well as the fact that so few seem to notice it.
Went into the comments to see who caught this first. Springs have no affect on total load transfer outside of the minuscule results of how they may allow the CG, wheelbase, or track width to alter during roll and pitch. The only items that affect total lateral and longitudinal load transfer are CG height, track width, and wheelbase. Springs, dampers, arb's, etc. have no ability to increase or decrease load transfer, but they do allow you to adjust the distribution and rate.
At the Hillclimb this year I was talking to one of the guys with Randy Pobst’s Tesla and they had their Tesla set up so the aero at 130mph+ the aero was strong enough the suspension was fully compressed therefore solid. So for me this video is pretty good timing lol.
But can a tesla reach 130mph on pikes peak? Maybe they did it for the medium speed corners
@@juanordonezgalban2278 I think they hit 160 as their max speed
The weight transfer is the same. The transient weight transfer is less. Basically, the dampers resist fast weight transfer and that results in a temporary increase in the load at the tire contact patch. Once the suspension settles as you mentioned, the weight transfer is identical to a vehicle with no suspension.
Makes sense. That part of the video made me scratch my head
Thank you.
Pretty sure Martin Brundle has mentioned that Ligier used to do this at the Mangny Cours grand prix too. That track is super flat and they had some of their best performances there as a result.
That's why race cars are generally stiff but not all the time stiff: They have to take into account the bumps and elevation changes too so that the tires lose less grip going over them, but stiff enough that weight distribution is as equal as possible through all four times
Removing suspension doesn't reduce weight transfer.
Weight transfer is function of CoG and track width and wheelbase.
Suspension reduce the speed at which weight transfer happens, no suspension means weight transfer is instantaneous.
Yep. This is one of the many myths that people constantly spread. It drives me nuts.
Totally agree! I was surprised when he mentioned that. Ok, you might say that some deviation of CG position might attribute to additional weight transfer, but that's really a small difference.
Absolutely correct. Why on earth do people keep perpetuating this myth?
@@pjay3028 Because it's a simple analogy that is sort of kind of half true. For example, if you stiffen (or in this case, LOCK) the suspension just on the rear, the rear tires are now going to take a larger percentage of the weight transfer in cornering. The total weight transfer is the same but the rear is forced to take more of it, thus inducing oversteer. I hate half truths because they lead to misunderstandings like this
@@wingracer1614 but what you describe is actually the exact opposite of what was said in the video, so rather than a half truth it's more like a whole lie! 😂
The amount of load transfer is NOT changing without suspension, it is only related to CoG height, trackwidth and lateral acceleration!
A car without suspension has no option to setup lateral load transfer distribution between front and rear axle and may end up being slower in terms of mechanical grip. All it changes is the roll rate to a near infinit value, depending on chassis and tire stiffness.
Thank you! While I was stunned while watching this video and thought I was losing my mind. I'm kind of astounded by the inaccurate info as well as the fact that so few seem to notice it.
Actually you can still adjust lateral load distribution front to rear on a car with no suspension. You can change front or rear track width, static weight distribution or tire pressures. This is basically how you setup a go kart.
Yeah, thats iffy to say lol. Load may transfer quicker, but it's the same forces acting upon the same vehicle
Sorry but weight transfer is almost only dependent on CoG height, track width and/or wheelbase and the acceleration you are experiencing. Soft setup makes it more visible but it occurs on no suspension as well. And you need to be more careful with no suspension since there is not much early sign before loosing grip. If you increase roll stiffness and spring rate too much on front axle, you get more understeer and the same for rear axle. But you are absolutely right about upsetting aero with pitch and roll
True
When Williams was unstoppable
**Nelson Piquet's Brabham has entered the chat**
Weight transfer only depends on the CG height and track width. NOT on suspension movement!
Actually for example when car with lots body roll goes around corners all of the weight tosses to one side that's a big weight transfer.
The most important comment on this video. Cheers, Kumquat!
Being extremely rigorous, suspension movement can indeed influence load transfer, but only on high travel suspensions (where the CG ends up moving horizontally). Not really on a road racing car, and certainly not on a F1 car.
Where suspension rigidity takes an important role, is in how fast the load transfer occur, meaning: the transient state. The final load transfer (after reaching a steady state during a corner) is the same, no matter the rigidity.
All the effects commented by Scott (during the weight transfer part) are due to that difference in transient state. For example: a soft sprung car won't be able to load the outside tire as fast as a stiff one. So a quick steering input won't have an increased vertical load through the outside tire to rely on, making the car feeling sluggish. If you are patient to wait for the load to finish transferring, it will have the same lateral acceleration as a stiffer car.
@Driver61, nice video once again, nonetheless.
If anithing you would loose the ability to transfer weight from front to back during lateral acceleration by ditching antiroll bars. They are an important part of the setup in creating oversteer, understeer or neutral handling. I wonder how that would affect handling.
Your remark @4:00 on "having no weight transfer in a car without suspension" is wrong, but it is a very common misconception.
A suspension slows down weight transfer during the transient phase of cornering. Once the suspension settles during cornering, the only thing that dictates weight transfer will be the height of the CG and the dimensions of the car - once the car is settled it doesn't matter if there is suspension or not.
This was part of my university thesis BTW.
What I think you are talking about is the "overshoot" phenomena on underdamped systems, because usually the roll of the car is not critically damped.
Agree
That's what I was thinking. If there was no weight transfer on an unsprung car, all tires would have the same load regardless of accelerarion or cornering, which obviously is not true. Really confused why this channel would say a mistake like this??
@@Catrik some racedrivers seem to use the term "weight transfer" and "overshoot" interchangeably, although that is wrong IMO. I have seen this mistake even on some old books about suspension design and tuning, which is quite confusing...
To clarify to others: cars with soft suspensions generally have a lot of roll. During the transient phase of the roll, the inertia of the rolling chassis can temporarily cause a weight transfer to the outside wheels which is bigger than the weight transfer happening when the suspension is settled, as the roll angle stops changing during cornering. The chassis rolls more than it would roll under quasi-static loading - this phenomena is called overshoot.
This overshoot is very hard to predict for unexperienced drivers, and can make the car "snappy", suddenly losing traction on corner entry, if not driven smoothly (as correctly pointed by Scott on the video).
This overshoot is one of the reasons that a lot of inexperienced drivers will install stiff suspensions to their daily-drivers thinking it will make their car faster - the actual mechanical grip generated by a stiff suspension is generally worse (there's a video from Engineering Explained on the subject) - but a car with a somewhat stiff suspension is generally easier to handle, because there's no overshoot (along with other factors), giving more confidence to the inexperienced driver, which makes him go faster - a psychological performance bump, rather than improving the vehicle's actual performance.. (I am completely ignoring aero effects here of course)
@@satanaz, perfect. Now I can finally stop scrolling because I'm satisfied with someone explaining the right things. Cheers!
@@satanaz Thanks for explaining the overshoot, I had not thought of that before but it makes sense.
Isn't an F1 car without suspension just a very large superkart?
Yes, and I'm all for it
You have missed the fact that the tires become the suspension. In addition Williams did not pioneer active suspension Lotus did.
Also the flex in the chassis. From an engineering perspective, everything is a spring. These 'springs' are undamped and very stiff relative to traditional suspension, though, which is where the bump issues come into play.
@@MegaNardman exactly, this is why karts work! The chassis is the spring, you can actually tune this "spring" through things to adjust chassis stiffness like additional bars or even a softer seat material. Something I think this channel should make a video on!
@@mehmetkara2752 You have hit the nail on the head. I think it would be a great video. I don’t think many people realize how much tuning can go into a kart chassis. If they watch a wet race they probably pick up on the front wheels having a wide track and the rear having a narrow track but that is about it. To do karts justice i think a few videos would be in order any ideas on how to get him to do it ?
@@michaelroberts1420 haha, ask for it enough and he might see it!
@@mehmetkara2752 every time I watch one of his videos i will ask.
Hard to believe the engineers didn't think to place high density foam in and under the seat for Alan Jones on the trials. It's a no brainer. ✌
Well foam could be like more weight which is ok.....like in one of the mercedes nico Rosberg said that they limit foam for weight limits...
@@speeddemon2901 Ditching the springs and the weight related should be more than enought to offset some foam
Netflix: "Are you still watching?"
Someone's daughter: 1:56
I feel sad knowing I was born after the days of peak F1 innovations and crazy experimentations like this. The biggest F1 changes during my time watching it have been the beginning of turbo hybrids and the Halo.
There is immense engineering behind the hybrid engines and their drivetrains
@@kpsig it's certainly impressive but the hybrid concept wasn't as fresh as some of the older innovations of F1 that later trickled down to road cars. And none of the teams will ever dare to execute quirky ideas like some teams had in the past thanks to cost caps and a more profit oriented business model of Formula 1 compared to just a couple of decades or so ago.
Very surprised not to see mention of the LOTUS 88 - sprung chassis within a hardly sprung chassis. Different, I know (it was to help the skirts) but surely worth a mention in this context.
I don't watch much F1, but I absolutely LOVE the technology and engineering involved in the cars! These videos are awesome! Keep them coming, please!
Brilliant series of F1 videos. But please may I question the the remark "lack of body movement also allows for less weight transfer". The weight transfer in turning is a function of the height of the centre of gravity above the ground and the track width - best understood by drawing a simple 'free body diagram' to show the forces which must resolve themselves with more upward force on the outer wheel turning (or forward wheels in braking) so that the moment around the CG is zero. The spring rates, anti roll bars (if used) and the torsional stiffness of the chassis all contribute to the extent to which the transfer of weight is shared between front and rear wheels (with corresponding influence on oversteer/understeer) but not the actual weight transfer.
4:14 Ok now you are just showing of......
Airborne one handed pump. WOOT!
This one was even better than usual content, unexpected and super interesting!
2:32 when the video is breaking
Hell yeah, 0:50 b roll of American trophy trucks !
Steady state weight transfer still occurs and the total amount remains unchanged (at same lateral acceleration) unless you alter ride height.
Without springs, the elastic component of the weight transfer just occurs at less roll, because the spring rates are higher (in the case of an infinitely stiff spring it just occurs instantly), and the geometric component of the weight transfer remains unchanged as well.
Thanks a lot for all you very thoughtful explanations. One interesting factor explaining why current formula 1 suspension are very stiff is also the current tires. The size and shape of the current tires are acting as an additional suspension. It absorbs shocks by deformation and enable teams to design and setup very stiff suspensions. The new 18’ tires may force teams to design softer suspensions by the way.
Hope you exceed 600k followers soon !
Far less weight transfer without suspension? Doesn't make sense. Weight transfer is majorly a function of COG height, thus, removing the suspension should very minutely affect total weight transfer. With suspension the increase could be from the COG arm due to roll, then due to some roll inertia being settled, and not aware of what more but the above mentioned cover the most big things that will make the difference
Would love an explanation. Cheers
You are right, Tushar. I'll just copy my comment from another answer:
Being extremely rigorous, suspension movement can indeed influence load transfer, but only on high travel suspensions (where the CG ends up moving horizontally). Not really on a road racing car, and certainly not on a F1 car.
Where suspension rigidity takes an important role, is in how fast the load transfer occur, meaning: the transient state. The final load transfer (after reaching a steady state during a corner) is the same, no matter the rigidity.
All the effects commented by Scott (during the weight transfer part) are due to that difference in transient state. For example: a soft sprung car won't be able to load the outside tire as fast as a stiff one. So a quick steering input won't have an increased vertical load through the outside tire to rely on, making the car feeling sluggish. If you are patient to wait for the load to finish transferring, it will have the same lateral acceleration as a stiffer car.
@Driver61, nice video once again, nonetheless.
@@heitooooor Ah yes Heiter. Thanks for your input.
Indeed as the transfer rate is affected so depending upon the type of steering input, we can say for a given maneuver that load transfer will be less.
For example if it's a chicane, so fast such that the tyres aren't loaded in the first turn in, then yes it absolutely makes sense.
Thanks a lot for the answer! :)
That caterham footage looks nuts.. Was it you driving?
Very, very interesting videos! I'm not much into cars but I'm a delivery cyclist and your videos help me get faster because I can understand much better logic and physics of racing. Thank you, keep up the awesome work!
Saying the car doesn't have weight transfer because it doesn't have suspension makes zero sense. That's just not how physics work. That is reliant on the center of gravity. Also everything on that car is a spring the chassis, the tires, etc. Plus weight transfer occurs whether you got a spring or not. A force applied that is effectively pushing down or up on an area doesn't have to have movement period. I can lay a brick on a flat piece of concrete and put a load on the front half and it will have front biased weight distribution even if no movement has occured. Same principle here but movement car occur. One way or another something is absorbing those shocks that energy doesn't go no where so it's the chassis and tires instead of controlled dampening instead of possibly getting a resonance.
For me the best and performing suspensions, seen in Formula One, will be the "active suspension" installed on the Williams FW14B, which raced in 1992. Nigel Mansell will win in the 92 "drivers and constructors championship. With the Italian Riccardo Patrese. Simple and effective. Even the" coca cola "area was tapered for the best aerodynamic performance. The FW14B will be nicknamed" the car that came from another planet. "The FW14B, for me, will be the most amazing car I've ever seen in formula one. And, for me, it was the safest, with semi-automatic gearbox, Traction Control, ABS. massive thanks for your videos help for understanding well . See you until next video . Have a good one and nice day . looking good Bro' . Cheers 🤗
3:38 - Ok so that’s very wrong. Suspension stiffness and body roll do not decrease or in crease weight transfer. That’s a big misunderstanding of how weight transfer works.
You can change the vertical load distribution in a corner only relative to the front and rear by either stiffening or softening one axle relative to the other axle, but you cannot change the actual total weight transfer of a car in a corner by stiffening your suspensions. That’s just not how the physics work.
In other words, for a given ride height and track width, the weight transfer of a car with or without suspensions will be virtually the same, because body roll has no significant effect on weight transfer.
Hope this helps.
9:18 "This wasn't Williams' first"
You may have got the time a bit wrong there...
Secret mountain bike image at 1:43
Suspension stiffness should not have an impact on weight transfer (in steady state cornering), only on the roll-angle at which it occurs.
Ride-height (COG-height) on the other hand does, as you mentioned.
Also besides the chassis-flex, tire-flex is a major part of an axles overall compliance (being a rather soft spring themselves (everything is a spring :-))
I think William F. Milliken once said: "Every type of suspension works if you don't let it"
The suspension on the seat that Alan Jones suggested was tried once on a racing motorcycle. The wheels were rigidly attached to the chassis and the engine, fuel tank and rider were suspended within the chassis. It worked but it was a low budget project at clubman level and was never developed further.
Speaking of suspension I recently noticed something odd on the Red Bull cars and their steering.
When I was watching Max on the warmup lap from the TV camera view I noticed that when he turned side to side when warming the tires "the whole front suspension pivots" around a central point.
The wheels not only turn around the kingpin axis, on the ball joints, the whole upper wishbone seems to move as though pivoting.
Have you seen anything like it before. Has anyone. Is it new or old. I have only just got access to the camera view of my choice and have never noticed it before.
I have never heard of such a thing except in billy carts but maybe I am just out of date.
If curious check out the Red Bulls on the warm up lap from the driver view camera, the one looking over the shoulder of the driver.
Active suspension is a fluid and pressurized air control suspension, basically as if the whole car is one huge shock absorber... these suspensions were inspired by ambulance suspensions in the 70's.
The first F1 to use this on a track was the LOTUS 92 on December 16, 1982, curiously the day of death of Colin Chapman who took care of the project at Lotus.
The first F1 to win races with an active suspension was the Lotus 99T with Ayrton Senna in Monaco and Detroit, in the same year in 1987 Nelson Piquet with the Williams FW11B in Monza had the first victory using the active suspension that came to be commercialized in the model. Lotus Esprit Turbo 1983 street... what changed in the improvement for the FW14B were the processing capabilities and sensor readings per minute...
Remember that Frank Williams took the team that took care of the Lotus suspension project with Chapman, as the new Lotus manager did not give priority to the project and it was the gap for Frank to absorb the professionals.
Another great video, quality content.
That chair looks awesome. Looks like the perforated office chairs, but with the softness of a leather chair, bet it's awesome.
Is this the same as having a car with 100% bump?
Perhaps they could remove rear suspension and do it in a Hardtail MBT way
@@truedarklander unequal amounts of grip would cause the rear end to slide side to side like a rollercoaster
Technically it would be the same as running infinitely stiff springs.
Imagine driving in belgium with this
There are tracks with far more critical bumps, but to be fair Belgium will be super dangerous
Yo that was a good question right at the end there. What if we could put suspension in the seat, would we get the perfect racing car or an abomination?
Our family's tractor already does it! No suspension, but the seat is mounted on rubber and springs
@@juanordonezgalban2278 How's it compare to a similar tractor with traditional suspension?
@@CatfishSprinkles I don't know, we have this 1 tractor and I haven't used it in years. But at 10kmh in our potato field is good enough
Alan Jones: If only you could put suspension in the seat.
Colin Chapman: Hold my beer.
FISA: BANNED
It will hurt your back even more if the tire pressure is high
But even so higher rake mean at straits the rear tire will suffer more than it should be
F1 can run low but it still has the legality plank that it can't wear down.
So Williams, basically, drove a million dollar go-kart!!
4:14 who would've tought a small bridge can be a free adrenaline shot
There are some basic concpt mistakes on this video. The first and most important is that he says weight transfers depends on suspension stiffness. It doesn't, the weight transfer is determined by cg height and track of the vehicle (and lateral acceleration). This means if a infinit rigid suspension does gives you more grip it is not by reducing weight transfer.
You kinda of mentioned it a little bit at the end of your Video but the forces that must now be absorbed by the chassis are enormous and will cause structural failure much sooner than on a car with suspension and that is actually one of the main reasons a suspension-less car will not work!
Question 1.
Am I correct in thinking that there would be a fine line between a properly suspended seat and the driver felling like he is driving from a hammock?
Question 2.
Thinking about seat suspension; Is there no compressible structure under the current F1 seats?
I understand the C.G. aspect but wouldn't that help to reduce back injuries from vertical loads?
Thanks for the great videos!
5:26 the hubermotorsport is 7km from me away haha nice to see it here
Body roll =/= amount of weight transfer. Amount of lateral weight transfer is dictated by CoG height, track width and lateral accel. Not suspension stiffness. Page 1 of any vehicle dynamics book.
Damn Williams went from such innovation to the back of the grid… things seem to be heading in the right direction now and I hope one day they challenge for titles and wins again
Yes! Love these videos by you
0:35
I can't believe a pro driver repeats such mistakes. Tyre contact patch has NOTHING to do with grip per se.
It only becomes relevant when thermal properties and 'brush' characteristics of rubber are in place.
There are several massive errors in this vid unfortunately.
You're right, but the whole story is far too complex to put in one youtube video. The main point here was: if there is no contact there can be no grip, regardless of other factors in play.
Besides keeping the rubber on the tarmac you need the suspension to decouple vibrations from the car and the ground. If you get any vibration from the tarmac or the engine resonate your aerodevices would vibrate too. These vibrations can cause a laminar flow of air to get turbulent, which would cause an instant loss in downforce. As we have eliminated suspension the car can't regulate it's hight and would start to jump. So i doubt it would be faster as you had do stay off any curb.
Also you can't completely eliminate suspension as the air in the tire does most of the suspension work in an F1 car. You just need the additional spring damper elements to keep sure you stay out of increasing vibration or jumps of the chassis.
I love how alot of the most genious ideas ever in F1 history that the FIA banned were made by williams in the 80's and 90's but these days they struggle getting into Q2
NASCAR teams did something similar in 2006-2007 with coil binding. They’d set up their cars so that at speed the springs would be fully compressed, meaning the suspension would not move and the tires became the suspension.
Not quite as the suspension still has movement in droop. Close though.
You said that lack of body roll causes less weight transfer and also that no suspension results in far less weight transfer. I'd have thought that the bulk of the weight transfer was from the lateral force acting on the CG rather than the very small lateral movement of the CG to the outside caused by body roll (I don't think the CG will move vertically much because the roll centre is below the CG in all sensible cars, so it should actually go down by a very small amount). I think it's a misunderstanding that the weight transfer is caused by the roll, as the roll is a reaction to the lateral forces and the lateral forces will remain and hence so will the weight transfer, even with no suspension and no roll.
I think in Williams's case, it was all about ride height as they were getting rid of sliding skirts, and nothing to do with weight transfer. I think they used springs in 1981, but Alan Jones's back was already feeling the pain by then, which persuaded him to retire.
Ridiculously informative content thank you!
How does curbs help to get more grip and speed? Also how does car touching the road and scraping doesn’t slow it down with all the friction and damage the car?
Fascinating. Imagine how much money they would save if they didn’t have to develop suspension!
In the 80s, When Touring Cars cars were very fast (yes, not quite as fast as today) -
a number of track records were held by 250cc Superkarts (no suspension).
I think body roll is a minor contributor to weight transfer on a race car. The center of gravity is not that much higher than the roll axis. Centripetal force and the height of center of gravity causes the majority of weight transfer.
So are we just not gonna talk about this man’s midair fist pump @ 4:17 ??
Still the king of racing channels. Love this stuff
9:03 Most trucks have suspension in their seats and their cabin too, so triple suspension?
Imagine how bad would the drivers back hurt if they hit the marbles at 150+
3:45 all 4 corners through the corner? lmao i know you mean tires but you say corners a few times
All 4 corners of the chassis
Williams seems to have lost alot of innovation and competitiveness when Frank turned over the management to his daughter. Now that she has stepped down, hopefully the team can make a strong comeback. It's sad to see such a historic team struggling out there on the track...
9:10 Lotus has entered the chat.
While there may be less weight transfer due to no roll, the weight transfer would be faster and overall grip of 2 front or rear tires for side bite would be less?
Actually load transfer would still happen by the same degree a with soft suspension.
Exactly, dude has no clue what he is talking about. Softness, or even absence of suspension has no effect (except absolutely minimum amount from a slightly shifting CoG) on weight transfer. There are only two things that affect weight transfer - CoG and track width/wheelbase.
was just about to comment the same. Equilibrium of moments... Suspension only change the distribution of the load transfer and the behaviour and movement of the chassis (that can change masse distribution but it is minimal). My confidence on his conclusions just dropped instantly. A very common mistake by people starting to learn vehicle dynamics and show very few knowledge in vehicle dynamics...
@@BerTav I didn't do physics, but I don't think suspension even changes the distribution of the load transfer. Stiff anti-roll bars I think speed up the rate of load transfer, so I suppose suspension does that to some degree. But with suspension, it is about maintaining the right contact patch, and/or preventing geometry changes to the suspension. There is also the possibility of lowering the car if it has stiffer suspension (which definitely has an impact on load transfer). But more importantly stiffly sprung cars just feel more connected to the road.
@@projectilequestion The relation of stiffness of the axels changes the distribution of load transfer. If you stiffen the front axle then you increase the percentage of load transfer in the front and decrease in the rear. The total remains the same but the distribution amongst the 2 axles is changed by the relation of stiffnesses of both axles. That's why for example you increase rear axle stiffness (with ARB or springs) when the car is understeering. That way more of the load transfer happens on the rear and less on the front increasing grip in the front and damaging a bit of the grip in the rear.
@@BerTav Right thanks.
As an engineer i am screaming, you just move the flexural strength and resistance to torsion into the body rather than the spring. It just sounds like damage and wear on the chassis
the size of the contact patch affects wear rate, not grip. grip is modified with tire compounds.
can we appreciate how good looking the m6 gte is
5:02 absolutely not. A lower center of gravity doesnt give them anything on the straigths and as the car brakes the rear rises bringing the center of gravity to where it was. The reason they do that is first because of the aero load increasing that much which forces the car to 'squat', which is ineviteble. Why they set it up to touch the ground on the straits is to stall the diffuser which reduces drag. Williama did that with their active suspension where they had a button to drop the car on the road to stall the diffuser
7:12 "and said that the car was faster" "feels like it could be quicker"
Great video ! Could you please make a video talking about how narrow or wider tyres, affect grip? Thank you!
What about Gokarts? Arent even the professional level ones with no suspension at all?
I'm asking this because I'm currently making one that's a cross between 125cc kart and a midget race car in terms of dimensions but with no suspension, it will be used as a track day toy.
At 00:36,isn't fiction independent of contact area?
Maybe he meant total friction, that depends on the area that's in contact. Not friction coefficient
2:31 editing mistake 😅
2:31 🤔
Not mad, just a hint, so it doesn't hinder future uploads
Simple, just like a bike without suspension is faster because the power goes straight to the back tires, but with suspension it wiggles around and the power is lost because of the suspension. That’s the simple explanation.👍🏼
But in a bumpy trail a suspension bike will go faster because it doesn’t bounce as much as the bike without suspension, and because the bike without suspension will loose the power it sent to the back wheels
It's crazy how suspension can actually soak up your down force there by reducing grip. Never knew that before
On smooth track but with good set of suspension with hi and low speed compression i will be same but on not so smooth track you will definitely feel cause instead of suspension soaking up the bumps the whole car will bounce that will affect it. Modern cars with modern suspension do what's best.
I had ohlins road and track coilovers on stiffest once and there are so much vertical Gs, it was throwing me out of seat over bumps, slight ramps, and felt nauseous after a 20min drive, can't imagine without suspension. Stiffer the suspension the flatter road is required. Otherwise tire lose grip without any travel. And if you hit a bump while cornering, it's over. That's why stiff away bars is not a good idea on road. Regular roads are crap for suspension
Excellent run down of the topic with some great footage too. Really interesting and you explained things well. Congrats on the 600K subs.
Sorry but the weight transfer part is not correct
The total weight transfer is always the same … (provided consistent Geometry)
Only the distribution can be changed between the wheels …
Furthermore tire squats influence is way more significant than chassis stiffness (concerning body movements)
04:16 did you celebrate or was that the jump? 😂
8:57 😂😂😂