You have such a wealth of knowledge and such an amazing voice and mind for story telling. I gave you a shout out in one of my recent Perkins Diesel tear down videos (#3 @ 1:30). You deserve more viewership. I'm not the best diesel guy out there, but I feel like I get a little better for watching your videos. Thanks Josh!
Cat wasn't going to Castrate their Engines. I have 16 3406B Powered 1985-1990 T600's. And a Rebuilt ready to go Replacement 3406B engines for each one. And 3 1986 W900's with 3408's and a Spare engine each as well.
I was a machinist at Cat for 15 years until 2005 when I quit when I knew for sure they were shutting down my facility. Here's one of the reasons. That part, which was one of the last parts that were prototyped across my CNC was poorly designed from the start. There were many issue myself and the other guy that ran it pointed out. The other is how much Cat was/is still gutting from their customers. That part cost only $25 dollars when it came off my CNC. The assembly division; right across the isle; paid $125 to "buy" it then "sold" it to the paint dept for $450. I'm not yanking anyone's chain here. Their internal philosophy was a 16X upsell for the finished product; Not the final product. The other with Cat; in general; is their mentality. The designers are Never wrong and anyone that punches the clock, the workers, have No clue what's going on. They still are using time studies; that's the process used to machine/assemble/test the part, what feeds/speeds to use, type of inserts and order of tooling; from the late 60's and early 70's. I showed a few of the different dept's general managers they were wrong; I got 2 days off for proving them wrong and producing a part quicker, closer to mean tolerance & cheaper using my process; and it's still an internal issue. Cat has wanted out of the mfg end since 1996 and have been splitting off divisions, buying smaller companies to contract thru so that all CAT has to do is final assembly (as little as possible) and marketing i.e. a sticker company. Right here is a built in failure as another excuse for Cat to spinoff their engine division to another company. Cat has a hidden stake in a lot of other companies that you don't know about that whose profits still come back to Cat indirectly. Electro-Motive Diesel (EMD) was in talks with Cat about a buyout as far back as 2001 which was at the same time there was a surge in "out of turn lay-offs" downsizing that the union allowed; IAMAW is a spineless union; and the outsourcing of an entire line to a small, under 30 people in total, that was non-union. I myself had to cross-train some of them and I was Forced to work with an interpreter' believe that one! Yah, this was a rant but 60% of Cat's problem's; financial and quality wise; fall on the shoulders of the management and board. My suggestion: stay away from anything Cat made; either by Cat or their subsidiaries; until they get back to taking care of their customers and employees.
I am an engineer for a custom equipment manufacturer and I take the opinion of our mechanics/machinists/welders as solid gold. They know more about how to build the thing than I do, I just know what I want to make it work!
I worked for Cat for 42 years , the last 18 in engine division. Good informative video, but not a lot of people know that Cat had a love-hate relationship with Paccar for years ! They didn’t have much use for us and the feelings at Cat were mutual. But at the time Paccar needed us so we did business. We also heard that the EPA had raised the emissions bar to a insane standard and Cat was no longer willing to pour millions into research for an engine system that wouldn’t be compliant within a year or two. Also a side note, I never saw one, but heard the Paccar engine that replace ours looked a lot like a Cat C15 engine. You don’t suppose those SOB’s stole our designs do you ?
The PACCAR engine is basically a 13 litre European DAF engine designed for European cabover trucks. Nothing like a Caterpillar engine. PACCAR own DAF Trucks.
I worked for Detroit Diesel for 42 years. Paccar kicked DDC out of bed with the Series 60 as well because they didn’t like Roger Penske and the Frtlnr relationship.
@@dougberry1011 the series 60 was a great engine. Reliable as hell and very mechanic friendly. I work for Freightliner and we rarely see and 60’s anymore. Mostly DD13’s, 15’s and 16’s
The high cost of buying a CAT engine, and CAT parts costing twice what other engine makers charge, and only from CAT dealers, really made it hard for the fleet companies to have these and still make a profit at the end of the day, which is the name of the game.
We have one CAT powered truck on our fleet, a 1994 Pete 379 and the crusty old driver who drives it said you'd have to pry it out of his cold dead hands.
I have a 2000 2136 Cat with 89, 000 miles on her....I just took her across the country. I still don't have a 100, 000 on her. She is the Best.. A Beast. I will be dead and she will still be running.
Typical whiner driver... What's the difference between a trucker and a puppy? The puppy will eventually stop whining What's a trucker call his basement? The whine cellar
I wonder how many people remember that CAT is short for "Caterpillar", which is a trademark referring to "an articulated steel band passing round the wheels of a vehicle for travel on rough ground."?
"They don't make em like they used too" rings true for the Cat House. They were once the industry " benchmark " but here in Aus that went down the chute a long time ago. Only those injected with Cat Yellow would think otherwise.
I work at Caterpillar in Washington, the truck and marine side for the last 2 years I have heard this story from multiple coworkers who have been at this location for 29, 30, 45 years, I am now part of the used parts business of cat tons of used parts getting rebuilt for those hard to find parts that cat doesn't make anymore.
They did not give up, just bought some time, as in the offroad engines the emission standards - while looser than on trucks - are tightening up over time. But, ditching a market area that you can't compete in after losing all your market share in that area, it indeed can be very good business choise.
We have a huge fleet at work full of older and mid to late 2000's Cats, and plenty of new Paccars and Cummins on the on road trucks. The New Trucks are constantly having issues and the Cats keep going.
Their biggest mistake was not adopting SCR, along with not properly fixing the ARD head. Without SCR, you would have to rely on EGR to reduce NOx, which reduces efficiency because you have less oxygen in the intake air. This increases fuel consumption and particulate emissions. And although you can filter out the PM with a DPF, you now have an exhaust restriction that gets worse and worse as the DPF gets plugged. You can add a regeneration system to clean out the DPF, but that takes extra fuel or lots of electricity. So your fuel economy just went right down the toilet because the EGR and DPF are choking your engine down. This is where SCR comes in. When you add more oxygen into the intake, PM goes down, but NOx goes up. Luckily the DOC and SCR system can easily take care of that. No more EGR = hotter, more effective combustion = less PM emissions. Now delete the DPF.
@@electric7487 I wish more manufacturers would of went scr/doc only. But, people are scared to put def in. But you're correct, the engine gets to run at high efficiency, and not deal with egr, and pushing tough a dpf.
@@tangydiesel1886 In my opinion, the bigger issue is that the EPA set the strictest standards as blanket standards with zero regards to what is necessary vs. what is excessive.
@@electric7487... very well said. However, we all need to look at the much larger picture, which is... the "global elites" vision for their (near) future world government and global depopulation plan and "utopia"... does NOT include fossil fueled reciprocating engines of any kind. Whether they will actually accomplish all that, remains to be seen.... although they are now "full bore" ahead with their depopulation agenda at this juncture in time.
I'm 55 years old, driving trucks since 19, and retiring at 60. I'm counting the days till I can walk away from this imploding and self destructing industry. I got a taste of " the glory days of truckin' " back in the 80's just before it ultimately came to an end, and I got a few very good years at the beginning of my career. My advice to anyone who's trying to make a living in this industry is not to walk away... BUT RUN!!! This isn't a joke or sarcasm, the trucking industry has evolved into a glorified welfare system / dictatorship whereas you work to support the people who control you, the consumer, the employer, management, administration, politicians, revenue agencies, law enforcement, etc... etc... etc... IT'S ON YOU to work and pay the cost of everyone else's agenda, you're left with the bread crumbs, and told to be grateful... or be fired. Here's a tip, a bit of info that may open your eyes... There's no such thing as an Owner/Operator, there never was such a thing. Till you make your final payment, the bank is the owner of the truck. The operator is the one who places his brand on your door and tells you what colour to paint the truck... at your cost. To lease or purchase a truck is to present your testicles to your master on a silver platter. There's a reason why our society has been discouraged from free thinking, welcome to today's trucking industry.
You speak so much truth. I been doing it for 10 years . I'm always calling dispatch bullshit . Everyone is a sell man and no one wants you to know the information in order to get to the next level . Someone uses you to keep them rich while you grow fat from cheap food and die slowly .
I live in NZ the trucking industry is not the only industry to be suffering from this. having worked in two different trades for 40 years they also seem to be feeding an ever increasing number of administration, safety, compliance, council fees, etc etc. Ive pulled the pin on the thing just do what jobs i can get that don't involve any council bullshit or compliance night mares.
The Only ones that disagree are the beginners that have been sold a bill of goods. They have no idea what is going on in our government or the trucking industry. After spending 60 years in the industry I don't no what's happened either. The one that jumps out at me is that I turned into a number rather than a name. It's a shame that it's turned out this way. The only fix is to let it hit the bottom and wait for a turn around. Are we just robots and not people?
The answer is to unionize the truck drivers. There is strength in numbers. Without organization, truck drivers and all blue collar workers. will be crapped on.
Cat didn't drop out because paccar didn't offer them anymore, it was all the emissions bs. Like he said, they couldn't build a motor to meet epa standards so they said screw it. They make way more money in mining & construction anyways so why support a failing venture that didn't make them that much $$$? Other than that, this is fairly accurate. Those cat vocational trucks were an abomination. Still have nightmares about them.
I am a Cummins fan but run a New Holland Forage harvester with a C18 in it. That Cat had impressed me with a load going up to %120 and still keeps chugging along. Have yet to stall it out.
@@ferguson20diesel49 yea those cat engines probably can't hold a candle to those modern European ones. Wonder why new holland ditched them as soon as they could
My dad had a ole green international truck he hauled wood chips with, it had a CAT in it. He also had a western star he hauled equipment with. It had a Detroit in it, after riding in both I can clearly tell which has the far superior motor, the CAT was a beast
CAT also purchased carbon credits in 08-10 to continue selling their engine, which is pretty dumb how the EPA allows that..."You can't pollute, unless you pay us, then its fine"
@Phil Mccrevasse I'm for that dude. Leave my 3408 alone. Without it you don't get shit. No idea why they can't understand that. Everything is at one time or another on a truck.
My uncle ran a Cat dealership and he said many of the same things. Cat needed their own truck line to have a market for truck engines. They needed a larger number of sales to justify the research and development cost of compliance with EPA regulations. In the end it wasn’t worth it. They too are rebuilding C15’s for glider service. Keeping the legend alive with yellow iron!
Cat engines were very popular here in Australia for what we call "Bitsa" trucks. There were like Kenworths where you could specify your choice of Cat, Cummins or Detroit Diesel. But whats happening is that the Euro 5 emissions saw the traditional US engine manufacturers really struggle when the likes of Volvo, Scania, Mercedes/Freightliner, MAN, DAF etc all came with their own compliant engines with fully computer program run EMS's. What also happened was that the Euro's gave you a free minor service deal as well as full engine warranty up to 1m kms. These also came sealed. You could really only do minor maintenence. For the rest you had to use a dealer workshop. This works fine, but here in Australia, road trains and truckes that drove on dirt and gravel roads in the harshest conditions still support the Kenworth/Cummins combo as they will still offer warranty for them. The advent of climate control, sat connection, 20sp automatic transmissions and beautiful interiors really do make a difference to the life of a long distance truck driver, here anyway.
Still running a Fleet of Pre 1990 T600's Powered by Cat. And 2 W900's with 3408 Cat Engines. All are Pre 1990 and my Drivers will not give them up. They have threatened to quit if replaced with Today's Plastic DEF Crap.
CAT was in direct competition with Cummins and Detroit, until CAT couldn't meet emissions and Detroit was bought by Freightliner, which was in turn bought by Mercedes-Benz. Fun fact: The current DD15 engine that drivers are so horny for is actually the same Mercedes truck engine we saw earlier when Mercedes-Benz first got into this business, but it sells so much better now with a Detroit badge.
Yeup 60 series i got one a 99 freight liner fld 2 over haul frame still good run like champ 13 speed Eaton if u ask me do i want a new truck maybe yes but with out the technology a cat 3406 in it old one or 12.7 Detroit,if not at least a 14 liter Detroit...👍👍✌✌👌
Boy, I love a C15 with an 18 speed behind it. Get on it and the whole frame would twist. Fully loaded vs fully loaded, not much is going to beat you off the line. Most of the new equipment is good, but raw torque is fantastic.
The reason why Forklift have Mitsubishi engine is mainly because those forklift are not made by Catterpillar. Cat aquired a compagny to expand their line of product. Hell the website for all the information about those forklift is not Cat but MCFA (Mitsubishi Cat Forklift America) But then in some forklift you will actually find nissan engine or even GM engine. I do like the durability of the TB45 or if you go diesel the S4S or S6S... until they replaced those with engine that were more "environementally friendly" (sure it the engine is not running half the time it bound to be good for the environnement :D) But back on the main subject, There a Mitsubishi engine because it an association between Cat and Mitsubishi to seize a part of the market Cat didnt have already in their attempt to have a solution for every client special situation.
I was told by the Cat rep that Cat didn't want to play the emissions game which is why they got out of truck engines. (I worked for a Peterbilt dealership during that time). This left Paccar having to source other engines, so they decided to go with their European division DAF for engines. Cat was the preferred engine in this area so there were a lot of "anxious" people in this area..
I work at a Kenworth dealer. We still sell a lot of Cat parts for older trucks but some are becoming hard to get. They don’t get enough good cores back to rebuild so we have very long lead times on pumps, injectors, cylinder heads, etc
Nope, emissions regulations made the engines not last like CAT wanted. They always produced 1 million mile engine designs that is nearly impossible with today's emissions that typically need a full rebuild at half those miles.
Exactly. I work for Cat, and although I'm not an expert on the engines, I talk to a lot of the engineers and higher ups. They all said ultimately it was the emissions standards why Cat decided not to build the engines anymore. They knew they had legendary engines before but realized meeting the emissions standards would make their engines a shell of what they used to be, so they decided to just concentrate on the off-highway engines.
Robert Polkamp as an owner of 2 cats and 4 Detroits . Cats cost twice as much to overhaul and the detroits consistently get better fuel milage . So as an owner I. Prefer blueberries over bananas all day long
They say you can't keep everyone happy in this case EPA couldn't keep CAT happy. CAT left the game. In other words CAT literally build this modern world.
I drove a 1988 Bluebird school bus with an 8.2L Cat engine. Somebody forgot to govern this engine. School buses back then were all almost governed down 65 mph. Us drivers would hold them on the floor sort of like cruise control. The first trip I took on this bus was an out of town trip to a basketball game on I-55. Anyhow I noticed I was passing everything on the road. I looked down & I was running over 90 & still gaining speed. I would've never believed it if I hadn't seen it myself.
I've heard that with school buses, there was a deal with the government that they would get you a new bus, but you had to damagethe old Cummins or Cat with no emissions. You had to put some liquid in the motor and run it until it was seezed, and then you would get a new bus. That's enough to make me want to just keep the older ones.
That makes sense considering thats sounds exactly like the Obama ministrations cash for clunkers. The liquid your thinking of is sodium silicate. They drained the oil filled it up with that stuff and ran it wide open till it locked up
@@1835dueber Bro I didn't want to bring up Trump, but shit, you gotta quit ripping on him. It takes a lot of work to become a president, I don't think I could do what he did. Trump wasn't my first choice of election either, but he is what I consider the lesser of two evils. I don't expect you to agree with me, but I wish people would stop making fun of Trump. He got elected; cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.
Had an 87 359 with a 4 in a quarter an a 15 over in the ashtray final gear driver. Had that truck forever. That little kitty ran clean and didnt burn oil. Pull trottle out to 1000rpm and sleep like a baby in that ol flat top. Any ol skool hicks remember those days?
Yep sure do, always said I knew my cat better than I knew the wife's backside, I could have been in the sleeper sound asleep let that four in a quarter make the slightest different noise I was awake.
However, my 379 heavy haul truck is still cat powered. Started with a 6nz. Then when we rebuilt the engine, we rebuilt it to a c18. Best electronic cat ever.
Lol I'm a westernstar guy as you may have guessed from my pic. I run the same engine on a tri drive winch tractor. 90lbs planetarys with a 18 & air shift 4 speed a box. And my other one is the same but with a automatic main. Both gliders.
Mississippi Mud Team the excavation company I used to work for had the 3406b in there 81 kenworth and the things never broke down. Then he got this Stirling with a cat c7 and that thing was junk
blindabinda123 only truck that we had go into limp mod was a MACK we changed every filter, sensor, Even bought a new ECM from Mack witch was a fortune and it’s still in limp mode, it’ll barely pull an empty flatbed across the lot in low gear
Mississippi Mud Team what engine does it have and what code is coming up? ? It's probably the heui pump not putting out enough pressure. The fuel systems are garbage on new trucks.
I am a retired owner operator, had a 3406B in a KW T800 and a Cummins N14 in an International 9400, Both were excellent engines and I got over a million miles on each without ever taking the heads off.
Not entirely true. I work for a CAT dealership. CAT got out of the truck engine market because the top brass at CAT did not want to subscum to the EPA and it's draconic regulations.
Navistar engines (and a lot of others ) were ruined by govt. regulations. Talk to Diesel truck owners, emission regs, DEF, electronic injectors cause down time for pretty much any brand engine. Too bad the govt ruined something as dependable as the Diesel engine.
The Navistar MaxxForce 13 engine used a Cat C-13 engine block painted black. That MX-13 engine, produced by international, was just a cat motor with different fuel setup. I had one in a 2010 prostar, and it pulled just like my C-13 in a Kenworth. They did have to change the EGR valve because of the recall, but that was the only updated I ever had to make.
I had about 15 CAT's, all 3208 or 1160 V8's. Not their greatest models, they were non sleeved. But the 3406 Big Rig engine was quite popular. People seemed to start losing enthusiasm when it went to the 3406"E" as in Electronic engine. This was the beginning of engines that you controlled only indirectly, and required a computer for tuning and differing horsepower. My main beef with CAT was that their parts were so expensive. Cummins or IHC or the old Detroit Diesels were so simple anybody could fix them, the end of mechanical NON-electronic diesels was a sad day. Yeah, the new stuff is powerful, much cleaner, and gets better fuel mileage. But the complexity.......
I was never sure of cat till I got one. Then the yellow feline had more torque than my other trucks. For my application I ran single axle trucks. The C10 was a great engine. Didn’t really need to do much to them till around 500k. After owning 2 c10’s and a C12 I can honestly say they were the best engines I’ve ever owned and ran. And the people I sold them to are still working them every day.
I thought the major reason for coming out of the truck market was that Cat were supplying engines into a very price sensitive market (I.e., taking a smaller profit per engine) whilst their machine groups were being starved of engines needed for the less price sensitive machines. The profit lost by not being able to deliver machines to the market was not being made up by the sales of loose engines. Add to that the overall growing demand for engines for machine groups and all of s sudden it makes a lot of sense to withdraw from the truck market. I worked for Cat for nearly ten years and one thing they always focused on was making a profit.
Still running my 2003 Intl 9400i with original Detroit Diesel 12.7L-470Hp non-egr which was one of the very last ones ever built. Just had it rebuilt in 2016 at 1,031,000 miles and now at 1,139,000 miles and still kickin' ass. I loved the 3406E-435Hp but this Detroit still chugging right along at 7+mpg with near zero smoke between gears. If I take care of this engine, it should easily last another ten or more years. I bought the truck 8-years ago and would be happy with it for another 10-years no problem. It's a shame the loss of CAT in the truck market but our Lafayette plant is still putting out CAT engines for gensets, marine, and heavy equipment and I hope that continues for a long time to come.
Hey James, good informative post! I used to think it was great to get 300,000 miles out of an 855 Cummins or any of the old 2 stroke Detroits. When the Series 60 came out, I was curious....then my buddy who is an Absolute Master Wrench said he tore one down at a million miles, and found very little wrong with it. And folks said they'd get one mpg better than any other engine available... I guess Roger Penske got it right! They run the 60 in Mexico, pulling double 45 foot trailers in their "Kenmexes"--they push the engine to 600 hp, with I think a 16 or 18 speed gearbox. Those boys can DRIVE down there, but the bad roads mean Many Many accidents.
Not only did it hurt on the road trucks, trucks sold to the DOD was hit hard too. Look up Oshkosh MK-23/27, LVS/LVSR, MAT-V and MRAP Cougars. All of those vehicles has Cat engines with Allison transmissions.
The nail in the coffin was the REGEN system that came out about 2007. They were constantly screwing up and CAT couldn't make an engine that would pass emmissions standards. The big engine market died for CAT.
@OttovonEarth F the trillions PISSED away with the Clean Air Farce. The U S spends billions on this shit...China does what it wants...a good reason China made junk cost less. You're a tree hugging idiot...like that Communist, AOC!
it's a shame. A big cat meaning a 3406 or c15 back then was good for million miles for otr truck. Then rebuild them and still go another 750k. Never see that kind of longevity out of any of these new emissions motors. Don't cry wolf to me about emissions and a carbon footprint when these new motors are essentially shit around 400k miles. If they even go that far without an inframe or other issues. The amount of natural resources to produce these junk motors and their limited lifespan emission systems is much greater than an old single turbo cat that last 3 times as long. These new motors don't last long enough and save enough fuel to make it worth all their trouble and short lifespan if you ask me. I got a 2012 389 with a cummins and with 450k on it it's been rebuilt 3 times!!!! Our 2002 379 with a 6nz has 1.1 million on it and hasn't been rebuilt yet!
slr379 I used to work for a LTL company and drove a CNG (compressed natural gas) tractor pulling a trailer around town, but it was a gutless wonder and didn't come close to a diesel, and that thing was on it's 3rd upper rebuild because it burned so hot, and didn't compare to the older engines made years ago.
the difference between their best and worst isn't that big haha. We had a couple old internationals, one had a n14 electronic and the other an older big cam 400 and every 350k the upper end was cooked or constant turbo problems. I'm sorry but I can't say we've really ever had a bad CAT.
slr379x Seeing an emissions engine go 400 k and needing a rebuild , and then adding all the resources going into a rebuild , I see no carbon footprint savings.
Cat did hot want to put the money needed into R&D for making a emissions compliant engine. They started to try with the twin turbo models and gave up. Cheaper to buy the tech from another engine manufacturer ....my .25c
It's a shame because there's nothing better than a Pete 379 with a Cat engine in it. especially the larger displacement engines like C 15 or larger. and preferably a 15 speed road ranger transmission.
Cat got out of the highway truck engine business also because while they were able to meet emission standards without the use of DEF, the government said no, you will use DEF. Cat said screw you.
DEF was a main reason CAT stopped making truck engines, as CAT engineers couldn't make a CAT engine work well utilizing DEF. The good news is that the EPA is rumored to stop mandating diesel engines be equipped with DEF systems, as their recent studies have concluded that DEF emissions are more harmful to wildlife than previously thought. CAT is said to be reconsidering getting back into the truck engine market now that DEF is no longer a requirement. Let's hope!
@Blind Squid I have a friend that lost his job because he is badly allergic to def & had many medical issues from it while stuck in traffic with many other semi's during rush hour traffic in the PNW, doctors tried to lie to him and play games... he had to go to a specialized medical facility in Portland, Or. to get tested... and result's were that DEF cause it from the vehicle's during the burn process - Basically anytime he goes out now he has to were a mask anytime he's remotely near a Semi /w DEF... So Another Trucker Lost to Stupid Reason's
DEF is bad for you and the environment. If you read the bottle on how to handle it this will shock you. so def is crap it doesn't do a dam thing uther than gas you out and cost twice as much as the pump
Anyone who has ever driven a truck with a CAT motor knows they were by far the best pulling engine you could buy! However the 379 Pete I used to drive only got at best 4/5mpg. The average was about 4.7mpg. The EGR valve was one of the worst emissions control ever invented! It recirculates dirty carbon filled exhaust back through the motor. That along with the DEF systems now in all new trucks. It is the biggest problem with truck engines today! It adds so much more cost and breakdowns that it is really becoming an epidemic!! I would never even consider buying a diesel pick up truck today! Too much goes wrong with all the emissions crap and the DEF system!!
I've only driven one truck with a Caterpillar engine, it was a 1999 Sterling single axle day cab, and had a Caterpillar C12 in it with a direct drive straight 10 Speed. It was okay. I've actually found the Cummins ISX 15 to be a decent pulling motor as long as it's with a true manual trans, forget it with the auto shifts
@@NITO3570 No, it doesn't. 2005 C-15 is using Accert and doesn't have an EGR valve, hence the longevity of the engine. EGR system overload the engine (thermally)very much and causing premature failures and damage . Avoiding this "mechanical hemorrhoid "(EGR system) Cat was still making reliable and efficient, yet clean engines but EPA rules had no mercy.... To relieve the thermal loading on your C-15 Accert you can do something simple and effective -- replace the original exhaust manifold with the high performance one (PDI,Pittsburgh Power,Bully Dog....) Works as advertised and you'll feel the benefits immediately (literally). Engine pulls easy ,gains 1/3-1/2 mpg and have more power between 1200and 1500rpm. I did it about half a million miles ago and I'm very happy so far 1 377 862 miles on the odometer (900 000 of them mine) and I'm still with the original turbos, water pump, 5 fuel injectors (replaced #2 150 000 miles ago),head gasket.... The engine hasn't been open yet! This engine is one of my best and wisest investments in my life!👍🍻
@@NITO3570 2007 + and Cat wasn't able to meet the EPA emissions standards for 2010 and gave up and went out of game of making on-highway engines. If you ever see some shabby ugly looking old Freightliner Century (occasionally Columbua) with 2 mufflers/stacks those are with last Cat engines (black or baby blue, old "Warner" trucks) They are not very expensive and you have a good chance to find something which is worth the money. Good luck!👍 P. S. Kind of misunderstanding (my bad) in my first reply saying "No,it doesn't." I've meant that Cat doesn't have "mechanical hemorrhoid",aka EGR system. BTW,in a good days, especially if I have time to drive with 63-64 mph my truck regularly is better than 6.7 mpg and makes my wallet very happy. 😂
Cat has a dinosaur business plan. Since they can't seem to adapt to a changing market. They developed the "if you can't beat them, buy them approach." Going with a horrible international engine was a bad call.
Been wrenching on caterpillars for 30+ years and the only caterpillar on road engine I couldn’t stand was the 3116. Gutless, hard starting when cold and setting up injection timing was a pita. I was so happy when the 3126 HEUI took its place.
I owned a fleet of 18 wheel trucks back in the 90s. always ran 3406 cats. they were great engines but the fuel mileage sucked. we would struggle to get 5 mpg. then when Detroit diesel developed the electronic controlled engine you could get a mile per gallon better with cruise control and speed limiting capability thrown in. I switched over to Detroit and dropped cat. I would say poor fuel mileage killed cat more than anything.
CAT was originally the off-road king. Then they went into transportation power. You're right about them, they didn't fair as well as they others in how they produced power or fuel consumption. Been that way for decades. Maybe its not so bad they got out but at least they decided and said to the EPA, your idea, you deal with it.
5mpg?so hard...my trucks is 15 years old m.a.n.....mechanical turbodiesel 12 litres inline 6 410hp...gross is 40metric tonns...fuel cons is 9,33 us gall in 62,5miles...this is 6,7 mpg...5 years ago gross is 50 metrictonns fuel cons:5,6mpg......3406 cat is 14,6 litres m.a.n. tga 19.410 eng is just 11,95 liters....
I worked on Cat 3208's for years on single axle and twin axle dump trucks. They were notoriously under powered and high maintenance. Loaded, they could barely get out of their own way.
Thanks for the explanation. Brings back memories of the ADE V series that Merc used here in South Africa. Loud and very powerful. I rewired a dyno at the reman facility that Cargo had in the days when one could just get an engine swap from the dealer. When testing a 16 cyl they just used a fire hose on the intercooler and not much could be seen through the steam. Don't see Merc's around like one used to when they had those power plants. It's mainly Internationals followed by Volvo's and Scania's. Very few Mack, Kenworth or Western Star's to be seen here.
I have a friend who is an engineer at CAT. It wasn't so much as emissions specifically as it was their partner for the electronics couldn't produce the ECM and sensors that passed CAT required quality inspections.
This is a very sad story. The speaker leaves out all mention of ACERT, which actually was a superior system at killing Nox and particulate at the same time. Their 2007 adaptation was complex, though there were advantages in terms of engine stress and oil deterioration. ACERT cleverly used very high turbo pressure, efficient charge air cooling, and early, variable valve timing to cool intake air and improve combustion. Part of the recipe was increased airflow and, together with the increased thermal efficiency of the engine, this meant more regeneration of the DPF, which also was larger as the exhaust fed back into the intake (with Clean Gas Induction) passed through it. A spark plug was needed to ignite the regeneration fuel, too--more complexity. Sadly, while ACERT gave far superior oil analysis reports in 2003 engines, the high complexity of the 2007 DPF and Clean Gas Induction systems seemed to create a lot of trouble. I suspect Cat could have fixed those problems and added SCR for 2010. But, as a manufacturer of diesels mostly used in construction, and in a market where truck manufacturers increasingly wanted vertical integration (fewer engine options), it seemed not to make sense to stay in the truck market. Cat ACERT continues to be used in non-vehicular applications and is an excellent combustion improver, to the point where the oil sees so little soot, the engine takes longer than normal to break in.
Good video. Thanks. But I think you soft-pedaled the real reason. Because the real reason should strike an ominous chord in every free American. IMHO, of course. I'm not an engineer, a truck mechanic or an environmental scientist. I am an attorney who observed the issues that highway diesel engines were having as a result of tightening EPA requirements in 2007, and made even more stringent for engines produced in 2010 and afterwards. Design engineers were faced with very difficult challenges trying to meet these standards. They would spend years trying to find and tweak technology. I don't know the inside story at CAT, but I bet that CAT just thought it was not worth the effort in the truck segment. So they stopped selling diesels for the truck industry in 2010 when the latest (for that time) EPA standards hit. They saved themselves years of costly design effort from 2007 to 2010 when they would have been required to intensely design and test to be up and ready by 2010 with a highway compliant engine. From what I learned, EGR technology would be essential just to have a chance at meeting 2010 standards, along with a separate particulate filter that required trucks in some applications to pull over periodically and idle to burn off particulates, and who knows what else. These changes would amount to a major re-design of their diesel engines. CAT made a sober business decision given that it had so many other channels to sell diesels not subject to highway emissions regulations. But the real story here is the way the EPA became an instrument of government control keeping highway truck owners and operators from having engines of their choice by squeezing down the emissions standards every few years. And for what? Trucks sold in America, by 2007, were already low in emissions compared with much of the rest of the world. The higher cost of these engines contributed to increasing the cost for Americans to transport goods, and drove up the prices of goods. The difference between standards in 2007 and those in 2010 and 2013 were catastrophic for diesel truck engine performance and reliability, adding more cost and waste. Were the environmental gains worth it when the rest of the world, outside of some of Europe, had no corresponding burden on their emissions? How much did "the planet" really gain from it? How much international commerce did American companies lose in competition with companies in other countries operating without these draconian emissions standards? I believe that individuals ensconced in the EPA decided long ago that they wanted eradicate the highway diesel engine. They could not take the political hit of simply outlawing the engine, so they just periodically tightened emissions standards to do the job over time. They want all of you to be limited to electric engines, and then they want you to get electricity from wind and solar. The government doesn't want to wait for capitalism to work to evolve new power sources for trucks. The government wants to impose its choices and force-feed them to you now. Of course, the electrical infrastructure is not even in place, and trucks may need to make frequent charging stops slowing the progress of goods. I speculate that electric trucks are likely have higher per mile costs than diesel. Further, that policy makes us even more vulnerable to physical and cyber attacks on the grid. It is a scary thought that these EPA bureaucrats are not elected, and I doubt that our elected representatives even know about this forced diesel phase-out. The EPA bureaucrats work in obscurity because the media chooses not to shine a light there. So, again IMHO, the short answer that other commentators on this video have said is that the EPA showed CAT the exit ramp on highway diesels, and soon will be directing all of the other diesel truck engine manufacturers to the exits. And nobody ever asked you for your opinion on it, did they? Because the government can make much better choices than a free and informed capitalist society does, right? Just ask the common people in Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, and the former Soviet Russia....
Can we all say New World Order!! Its coming unless a whole lot of people pull their heads out of their asses, everything Tom said is true, and the NWO does not have our best interests at heart!!!
@@NakedDave100 Dave: Thanks. It hasn't got any better, right? The federal government decided to start shutting down permits for oil pipelines and development of new oil fields etc. before all of the electric infrastructure is in place. The inevitable result - gas price increases approaching a dollar, and I bet diesel is up too. All because our government wants to follow their own NWO agenda despite what might be best for the forgotten people of this great country. You are right on, Dave.
Paul G did a delete on a truck and it is doing 9L/100kms less fuel consumption after delete. Explain how that works. Plus, the truck was costing around $25,000 a year in related repairs of the Soc, EGR and Dpf system, not including loss of work. It is a scam, front to back.
igostupidfast3 , higher NOx is a consequence of running the engine leaner, a diesel running leaner runs more efficiently. So if you want to get the most energy out of an ounce of fuel then you will produce more NOx.
@@paulg444 actually Nox ist to do with heat of combustion. Not really to do with running lean. It's a nasty side effect of having good combustion. But we have SCR systems that deal with it.
Cat Never really looked to figure the emissions out in ways that Volvo or Iveco (CNH Industrial) had already in the works in the way of just pump DEF into the exhaust and they did use more DEF but did not require EGR or to Regen and now they just regen passive which is much easier to do than to force it
Government regulations. Cat couldn't meet the new EPA standards without spending a buttload of money and they have such big stakes in other industries they dropped the otr engines. Regulations made it unprofitable.
It was a good move for CAT, they sold their Diesel engine line and acquired EMD from GM. Given the fact freightliner is most likely going to have its full electric trucks on the highway almost 2 years early it’s a good idea to exit diesel production. CAT made a smart choice for longevity, the emissions and reliability issues just made it easier to stay in markets that won’t see electric for years.
Love my cats!! Owned a 1693 for twenty years.. currently have a 3406B.. love it!! Have an N14 too.... Not impressed! I swear the 3406B rated at less horse power than the N14, will run circles around it! Would love to repower and dump the N14! Great video, thank you for the enlightenment!
You can still buy brand new CAT C15 ACERT truck engines from CAT in Australia, however they can’t be installed in brand new trucks, only re-powers. Also the CAT truck in Australia had a CAT C15 but was a poor selling truck. Caterpillar plus Kenworth was an unbeatable combination in Australia and there were a lot of p****d off owners when they pulled out. Kenworth in Australia actually built up a big stockpile of CAT engines when they knew Caterpillar were going to pull out. My 3408 in my KW has done around 7,000,000 kms and it’s still going strong.
7.000.000 !!!!! wow !!!! i have few C12 with 800 hours on it (we schedule by hours, not miles) and i am praying to hold a bit longer ... !! a cummins or another good brand holds for 4000 hours without big trouble
Max Love did you not listen to what he said, it was all about the emissions nothing to do with the accert, the accert is a problem motor but not the reason why Cat got out of truck engine's.
eloyex, 800 and 4000 hours? are you sure you are not missing a zero on each of those numbers? I've got old farm machinery that has 7000+ - 10+K hours on stock engines that were back in their day considered the weak ones and I regularly work on industrial equipment that has 20K - 30+K hours on engines that are near bone stock sans external components like starters, alternators, water pumps, turbos and some injection system parts. Beyond that I have worked with gen sets that have had 40K - 50+K hours on all stock engines. So to me your 800 and 4000 hour numbers seem suspiciously low!
There is no engine in the world like Cat. Cat is simply the best on contraction machines, trucks, power unites etc. There is nothing to argue about it.
This is an easy question to answer. Because Caterpillar said why when they stopped. Emissions controls. Emissions controlled engines produce more pollutants, burn more fuel, are less reliable, less durable, and produce less power for the same displacement as a conventional engine. Caterpillar wasn't willing to play that game with their reputation and company.
After working on trucks for 40 years, I was surprised and angry that Cat got out of the truck engine biz. But I don't blame the EPA, they set out to stop pollution and clean our air because that's what we wanted them to do and they have done what the people wanted. It's too bad that companies like Cat decided to invest in other technologies, but that is what companies do, they invest their money where they get the best return. It's a new world and our grand-children will never see the smog that I grew up with and we should be happy for that.
The EPA started with good intentions.... After decades of administration growing like a cancer it now has ridiculously impossible standards. We should roll back to early EPA standards and we won't have smog and we can still have good trucks.
@@joelx77 No! Corporations are still trying to poison our air and water! I'm old enough to remember what it was like before 1972, and I remember all the fights between the vested interests and the EPA in Congress. The EPA is needed more then ever! And BTW "good trucks"? You do realize that in ten years all new trucks will be electric? The idea that a trucker has to pay $600 to travel 400 miles is way beyond common sense.
You can also order a C15 in parts. The company I work for specializes in that in Canada. Just took out a blown ISX in a Peterbilt and tossed in a C15 built on an engine stand with parts only. It just takes a long ass time to make sure you have everything.
I was an in-use emissions engineer for Cummins during the 07 crackdown and I understood the reason for Cats exit was because their warranty claims were thru the roof based on sulfuric acid corrosion. I have no first hand experience with Cats but was told they took exhaust downstream and recirculated it back to the cylinder, but the gas path was so far that the gas cooled and the sulfur condensed, creating the sulfuric acid corrosion problem.
That did happen - but it affected the aftercooler not the engine. New aluminium grades had to be developed to cope with the acid. The benefit was no soot in the engine - and less heat for the EGR cooler to deal with - some really good ideas - but as a whole it didn't work.
@@iansouthman3882 Makes sense until you learn how destructive sulfuric acid is and realize it has a low dew point. I dealt with sulfur corrosion a lot in my career and coal burning power plants deal with it by having redundant systems in place to ensure the back end temp stays above the acid dew point. Components susceptible to corrosion are also coated with different types of ceramics and proprietary coatings. No steel and very few metals can stand up against acid corrosion. Duplex stainless does pretty good, but its not totally immune. Very nasty stuff once it hits the dew point.
When I was driving big trucks, the biggest complaint I heard about CAT was the fuel economy sucked compared to Cummins, and especially Detroit. When the new emission standards really started kicking in in 2003 the fuel economy got worse (4.0-4.5 mpg). Kind of hard to compete with engines that were still getting 6.0-7.5 mph with a decent load.
Excellent and informative video! I've NEVER seen one of those CAT trucks.....Last time I went to our local Freightliner dealer, they were stuffed with Volvos, no Freightliners, and all with a Mercedes engine of sorta small size, I think less than 800 cubic inches. Where's the American stuff? But I KNOW Volvo can build trucks, when I drove in Germany (with my injector pumped jacked by 800 RPM!) nobody could whoop me consistently except for Volvo and Scania, both Swedes to my knowledge. They'd just show up in my mirrors, and cruise right on past me....
What I was told by a CAT dealer was it would be counter productive and a lot more expensive to re engineer a CAT engine to conform to present D.O.T. Standards and EPA regulations.. And doing so would take away most of the power of the CAT motor that it is famous for in order to make the changes needed.. So they calculated that it would be more cost effective to just discontinue building new CAT motors.. But, there are several millions CAT motors still working hard out there, and with proper regular maintenance, and the occasional rebuild, any CAT motor can damned near last for ever.. Also any CAT motor that is only a few years old, is virtually worth it's weight in gold.. My former boss bought about 100 or so Kenworths and all of them have the older 500 HP CAT engine in them....
Cat has manufactured engines and machines in China for 45 years where emissions are nearly non-existing. Many of the older production machines ended up there to continue manufacturing mechanical controlled engines.
I know this so well. In the early 2000's a small trucking company here in Oamaru New Zealand held the world's highest payload on any road going truck and trailers. Anyway the guy had early M.S so he squandered all his in laws money on projects which involved buying the first Freightliner and Peterbuilt trucks fitted with Cats. The trucks to achieve high payloads he had to remove passenger seats, spare wheels, add fiberglass springs etc. In the end due to Cat dealer not willing to sell him parts he ended up no paying wages a d borrowing money to buy new engine from overseas just to get the e.c.u and head gear off it... I was the guy who liquidated all his plant for the bank when he went broke. I got 70 grand for the originally spent 2.5 million of gear.... That Cat was a real dog.
in 1996 Paccar bought a truck company called DAF in the Netherlands, 14 years before Cat stopped making engines. When Cat notified them that they were no longer going to be making truck engines, Paccar decided to replace it with the DAF engine. The DAF plant did not have the capacity to supply both the European and the North America markets so Paccar built the engine plant in Columbus, MS to supply engines for the North American market. The DAF engine, now branded Paccar, was not a knock off version of CAT but was developed independently in Europe. The Paccar MX-13 undergoes continuous improvements to improve fuel economy, emissions reductions, torque increases, etc. CAT was certainly a stellar engine. So is the Cummins. Today, when you buy a Kenworth or a Peterbilt (both owned by Paccar) you have the option of the 15 liter Cummins or the 13 liter Paccar engine. Other sizes are available for smaller trucks.
You have such a wealth of knowledge and such an amazing voice and mind for story telling. I gave you a shout out in one of my recent Perkins Diesel tear down videos (#3 @ 1:30). You deserve more viewership. I'm not the best diesel guy out there, but I feel like I get a little better for watching your videos. Thanks Josh!
briansmobile1 hey Brian, fancy seeing you here!
Thanks for the shout out. I really appreciate it, especially since you have such a large channel. Appreciate the view and comment.
Could I get a compliment two
Corn Fed why
Why you talking all that troll bullshit man? This guy is an amazing Cat tech, don’t hate.
If Cat couldn't pass emissions, why didn't they ask Volkswagen for help?
good one
Or dodge 😂
Because they'd end up like Detroit.
Cat wasn't going to Castrate their Engines. I have 16 3406B Powered 1985-1990 T600's. And a Rebuilt ready to go Replacement 3406B engines for each one. And 3 1986 W900's with 3408's and a Spare engine each as well.
Curt Ekstrom The joke was VWs emission scandals. You know, like one of the biggest lawsuits ever??
I was a machinist at Cat for 15 years until 2005 when I quit when I knew for sure they were shutting down my facility. Here's one of the reasons. That part, which was one of the last parts that were prototyped across my CNC was poorly designed from the start. There were many issue myself and the other guy that ran it pointed out. The other is how much Cat was/is still gutting from their customers. That part cost only $25 dollars when it came off my CNC. The assembly division; right across the isle; paid $125 to "buy" it then "sold" it to the paint dept for $450. I'm not yanking anyone's chain here. Their internal philosophy was a 16X upsell for the finished product; Not the final product. The other with Cat; in general; is their mentality. The designers are Never wrong and anyone that punches the clock, the workers, have No clue what's going on. They still are using time studies; that's the process used to machine/assemble/test the part, what feeds/speeds to use, type of inserts and order of tooling; from the late 60's and early 70's. I showed a few of the different dept's general managers they were wrong; I got 2 days off for proving them wrong and producing a part quicker, closer to mean tolerance & cheaper using my process; and it's still an internal issue. Cat has wanted out of the mfg end since 1996 and have been splitting off divisions, buying smaller companies to contract thru so that all CAT has to do is final assembly (as little as possible) and marketing i.e. a sticker company. Right here is a built in failure as another excuse for Cat to spinoff their engine division to another company. Cat has a hidden stake in a lot of other companies that you don't know about that whose profits still come back to Cat indirectly. Electro-Motive Diesel (EMD) was in talks with Cat about a buyout as far back as 2001 which was at the same time there was a surge in "out of turn lay-offs" downsizing that the union allowed; IAMAW is a spineless union; and the outsourcing of an entire line to a small, under 30 people in total, that was non-union. I myself had to cross-train some of them and I was Forced to work with an interpreter' believe that one! Yah, this was a rant but 60% of Cat's problem's; financial and quality wise; fall on the shoulders of the management and board. My suggestion: stay away from anything Cat made; either by Cat or their subsidiaries; until they get back to taking care of their customers and employees.
I am an engineer for a custom equipment manufacturer and I take the opinion of our mechanics/machinists/welders as solid gold. They know more about how to build the thing than I do, I just know what I want to make it work!
I worked for Cat for 42 years , the last 18 in engine division. Good informative video, but not a lot of people know that Cat had a love-hate relationship with Paccar for years ! They didn’t have much use for us and the feelings at Cat were mutual. But at the time Paccar needed us so we did business. We also heard that the EPA had raised the emissions bar to a insane standard and Cat was no longer willing to pour millions into research for an engine system that wouldn’t be compliant within a year or two. Also a side note, I never saw one, but heard the Paccar engine that replace ours looked a lot like a Cat C15 engine. You don’t suppose those SOB’s stole our designs do you ?
The PACCAR engine is basically a 13 litre European DAF engine designed for European cabover trucks. Nothing like a Caterpillar engine. PACCAR own DAF Trucks.
I worked for Detroit Diesel for 42 years. Paccar kicked DDC out of bed with the Series 60 as well because they didn’t like Roger Penske and the Frtlnr relationship.
PACCAR is railroad so they.ll steal anything.
The EPA is destroying America.
@@dougberry1011 the series 60 was a great engine. Reliable as hell and very mechanic friendly. I work for Freightliner and we rarely see and 60’s anymore. Mostly DD13’s, 15’s and 16’s
The high cost of buying a CAT engine, and CAT parts costing twice what other engine makers charge, and only from CAT dealers, really made it hard for the fleet companies to have these and still make a profit at the end of the day, which is the name of the game.
I made pistons for CAT. Got to speak to CAT representative, he was a really professional person and believed in his company and quality. I liked him
We have one CAT powered truck on our fleet, a 1994 Pete 379 and the crusty old driver who drives it said you'd have to pry it out of his cold dead hands.
He must have enjoyed all that down time while the truck was being wrenched on.
Bet his helmets fucking stinking
Go ahead call the police
They cant unrape you
I have a 2000 2136 Cat with 89, 000 miles on her....I just took her across the country. I still don't have a 100, 000 on her. She is the Best.. A Beast. I will be dead and she will still be running.
Typical whiner driver...
What's the difference between a trucker and a puppy? The puppy will eventually stop whining
What's a trucker call his basement?
The whine cellar
I wonder how many people remember that CAT is short for "Caterpillar", which is a trademark referring to "an articulated steel band passing round the wheels of a vehicle for travel on rough ground."?
I still occasionally remember that
"They don't make em like they used too" rings true for the Cat House. They were once the industry " benchmark " but here in Aus that went down the chute a long time ago. Only those injected with Cat Yellow would think otherwise.
I work at Caterpillar in Washington, the truck and marine side for the last 2 years I have heard this story from multiple coworkers who have been at this location for 29, 30, 45 years, I am now part of the used parts business of cat tons of used parts getting rebuilt for those hard to find parts that cat doesn't make anymore.
From 40% to nearly nothing ! Wow, I had no idea. Thank you !
They stop building Motors for Highway use because of the government regulations. Love my 3406b
They gave up on trying to keep up with the ever tighter emmisions standards. Can't blame them. Good business choice.
They suddenly stopped after watching Forrest Gump.
They did not give up, just bought some time, as in the offroad engines the emission standards - while looser than on trucks - are tightening up over time.
But, ditching a market area that you can't compete in after losing all your market share in that area, it indeed can be very good business choise.
California, a state that lets homeless shit on the street should have any regulations written by them ignored.
Hurt ALOT of union family's in Illinois when Mossville Engine center closed down!! But Caterpillar doesn't care about there employees anyways.
Nailed it
In 1980-86 I worked for the solid waste industry and our trucks all had 3208 Cats. The most dependable longest lasting engines at the time.
Yeah the little V8, Cat produced one hell of a lot of those engines.
I drove a Cat 3406 engine and I can't imagine a better one. Ruined my opinion of Cummins.
We have a huge fleet at work full of older and mid to late 2000's Cats, and plenty of new Paccars and Cummins on the on road trucks. The New Trucks are constantly having issues and the Cats keep going.
Probably because half of your operators are 20000 year old relics that still live in the middle ages.
Depends on the years and how you run them
Just a damn shame, I put over a million two miles on my 3406 before the overhaul with no surprises.
Wish they could find their way back in.
Their biggest mistake was not adopting SCR, along with not properly fixing the ARD head.
Without SCR, you would have to rely on EGR to reduce NOx, which reduces efficiency because you have less oxygen in the intake air. This increases fuel consumption and particulate emissions. And although you can filter out the PM with a DPF, you now have an exhaust restriction that gets worse and worse as the DPF gets plugged. You can add a regeneration system to clean out the DPF, but that takes extra fuel or lots of electricity. So your fuel economy just went right down the toilet because the EGR and DPF are choking your engine down.
This is where SCR comes in. When you add more oxygen into the intake, PM goes down, but NOx goes up. Luckily the DOC and SCR system can easily take care of that. No more EGR = hotter, more effective combustion = less PM emissions. Now delete the DPF.
@@electric7487 I wish more manufacturers would of went scr/doc only. But, people are scared to put def in. But you're correct, the engine gets to run at high efficiency, and not deal with egr, and pushing tough a dpf.
@@tangydiesel1886 In my opinion, the bigger issue is that the EPA set the strictest standards as blanket standards with zero regards to what is necessary vs. what is excessive.
@@electric7487... very well said. However, we all need to look at the much larger picture, which is... the "global elites" vision for their (near) future world government and global depopulation plan and "utopia"... does NOT include fossil fueled reciprocating engines of any kind. Whether they will actually accomplish all that, remains to be seen.... although they are now "full bore" ahead with their depopulation agenda at this juncture in time.
I'm 55 years old, driving trucks since 19, and retiring at 60. I'm counting the days till I can walk away from this imploding and self destructing industry. I got a taste of " the glory days of truckin' " back in the 80's just before it ultimately came to an end, and I got a few very good years at the beginning of my career. My advice to anyone who's trying to make a living in this industry is not to walk away... BUT RUN!!! This isn't a joke or sarcasm, the trucking industry has evolved into a glorified welfare system / dictatorship whereas you work to support the people who control you, the consumer, the employer, management, administration, politicians, revenue agencies, law enforcement, etc... etc... etc... IT'S ON YOU to work and pay the cost of everyone else's agenda, you're left with the bread crumbs, and told to be grateful... or be fired. Here's a tip, a bit of info that may open your eyes... There's no such thing as an Owner/Operator, there never was such a thing. Till you make your final payment, the bank is the owner of the truck. The operator is the one who places his brand on your door and tells you what colour to paint the truck... at your cost. To lease or purchase a truck is to present your testicles to your master on a silver platter. There's a reason why our society has been discouraged from free thinking, welcome to today's trucking industry.
Unfortunately the population of the world is slot more higher than in the 80s and there are a lot more trucks on the road now than there was then.
You speak so much truth. I been doing it for 10 years . I'm always calling dispatch bullshit . Everyone is a sell man and no one wants you to know the information in order to get to the next level . Someone uses you to keep them rich while you grow fat from cheap food and die slowly .
I live in NZ the trucking industry is not the only industry to be suffering from this. having worked in two different trades for 40 years they also seem to be feeding an ever increasing number of administration, safety, compliance, council fees, etc etc.
Ive pulled the pin on the thing just do what jobs i can get that don't involve any council bullshit or compliance night mares.
The Only ones that disagree are the beginners that have been sold a bill of goods. They have no idea what is going on in our government or the trucking industry. After spending 60 years in the industry I don't no what's happened either. The one that jumps out at me is that I turned into a number rather than a name. It's a shame that it's turned out this way. The only fix is to let it hit the bottom and wait for a turn around. Are we just robots and not people?
The answer is to unionize the truck drivers. There is strength in numbers. Without organization, truck drivers and all blue collar workers. will be crapped on.
Cat didn't drop out because paccar didn't offer them anymore, it was all the emissions bs. Like he said, they couldn't build a motor to meet epa standards so they said screw it. They make way more money in mining & construction anyways so why support a failing venture that didn't make them that much $$$? Other than that, this is fairly accurate. Those cat vocational trucks were an abomination. Still have nightmares about them.
I am a Cummins fan but run a New Holland Forage harvester with a C18 in it. That Cat had impressed me with a load going up to %120 and still keeps chugging along. Have yet to stall it out.
we've v12 man lorry engines in our silage harvesters such as class jaguars and Krones. Older ones had deutz engines
@@ferguson20diesel49 yea those cat engines probably can't hold a candle to those modern European ones. Wonder why new holland ditched them as soon as they could
My dad had a ole green international truck he hauled wood chips with, it had a CAT in it. He also had a western star he hauled equipment with. It had a Detroit in it, after riding in both I can clearly tell which has the far superior motor, the CAT was a beast
What kind of detroit
nothing like a caterpillar.....a good 6nz push easy 700 hp...only little mod
CAT also purchased carbon credits in 08-10 to continue selling their engine, which is pretty dumb how the EPA allows that..."You can't pollute, unless you pay us, then its fine"
Extortion
Thats why the EPA needs to be dissolved.
@Phil Mccrevasse
I'm for that dude. Leave my 3408 alone. Without it you don't get shit. No idea why they can't understand that. Everything is at one time or another on a truck.
Yea aint it so. The government is one of the biggest poluters, but companies have to pay them if they do. Welcome to today's world
Kayann Henry green technology is all about greenbacks. 💸💸💸💸
My uncle ran a Cat dealership and he said many of the same things. Cat needed their own truck line to have a market for truck engines. They needed a larger number of sales to justify the research and development cost of compliance with EPA regulations. In the end it wasn’t worth it. They too are rebuilding C15’s for glider service. Keeping the legend alive with yellow iron!
Cat engines were very popular here in Australia for what we call "Bitsa" trucks. There were like Kenworths where you could specify your choice of Cat, Cummins or Detroit Diesel. But whats happening is that the Euro 5 emissions saw the traditional US engine manufacturers really struggle when the likes of Volvo, Scania, Mercedes/Freightliner, MAN, DAF etc all came with their own compliant engines with fully computer program run EMS's. What also happened was that the Euro's gave you a free minor service deal as well as full engine warranty up to 1m kms. These also came sealed. You could really only do minor maintenence. For the rest you had to use a dealer workshop. This works fine, but here in Australia, road trains and truckes that drove on dirt and gravel roads in the harshest conditions still support the Kenworth/Cummins combo as they will still offer warranty for them.
The advent of climate control, sat connection, 20sp automatic transmissions and beautiful interiors really do make a difference to the life of a long distance truck driver, here anyway.
Anybody enjoying every last minute of their straight piped CAT engine in 2019? 🖐🖐
Still running a Fleet of Pre 1990 T600's Powered by Cat. And 2 W900's with 3408 Cat Engines. All are Pre 1990 and my Drivers will not give them up. They have threatened to quit if replaced with Today's Plastic DEF Crap.
Hell yeah. Would trade it for nothing. The emissions on the newer trucks are pieces of shit. Thanks California
I got a ford 7.3 straight piped. Haha suck it government, cant make me put all that shit on my truck.
@@pipeline_hank5277 probly will in the future
@@pipeline_hank5277 well when diesel reach European levels $7,40 per gallon, you probably think different about the engine in your truck.
CAT was in direct competition with Cummins and Detroit, until CAT couldn't meet emissions and Detroit was bought by Freightliner, which was in turn bought by Mercedes-Benz.
Fun fact: The current DD15 engine that drivers are so horny for is actually the same Mercedes truck engine we saw earlier when Mercedes-Benz first got into this business, but it sells so much better now with a Detroit badge.
Ddd15 are trash bud 12.7 was the best
@@stevecornejo4861 60 series for the win
Yeup 60 series i got one a 99 freight liner fld 2 over haul frame still good run like champ 13 speed Eaton if u ask me do i want a new truck maybe yes but with out the technology a cat 3406 in it old one or 12.7 Detroit,if not at least a 14 liter Detroit...👍👍✌✌👌
Boy, I love a C15 with an 18 speed behind it. Get on it and the whole frame would twist. Fully loaded vs fully loaded, not much is going to beat you off the line. Most of the new equipment is good, but raw torque is fantastic.
Cat does not honor their own warrenty.
@@user-kn3cy1oz9x that is your asshole talking because your head knows better!!
What? Couldn't they find a Mitsubishi engine to repaint yellow, double the price for it, and stick a CAT label on it like they did on my forklift?
CumminsDslPwr 😂😂
CumminsDslPwr if they stand behind it like any Cat engine, i don't care if they paint a Duramax to throw in it.
Tom Novak
What was a shock to me was the Olympian generator line.
Generac is such crap, and to see cat team up with them was disappointing.
they do that with perkins engines in tractors and welders
The reason why Forklift have Mitsubishi engine is mainly because those forklift are not made by Catterpillar. Cat aquired a compagny to expand their line of product. Hell the website for all the information about those forklift is not Cat but MCFA (Mitsubishi Cat Forklift America)
But then in some forklift you will actually find nissan engine or even GM engine. I do like the durability of the TB45 or if you go diesel the S4S or S6S... until they replaced those with engine that were more "environementally friendly" (sure it the engine is not running half the time it bound to be good for the environnement :D)
But back on the main subject, There a Mitsubishi engine because it an association between Cat and Mitsubishi to seize a part of the market Cat didnt have already in their attempt to have a solution for every client special situation.
keeping my 379 Peterbilt with a C15 FOREVER!!
I was told by the Cat rep that Cat didn't want to play the emissions game which is why they got out of truck engines. (I worked for a Peterbilt dealership during that time). This left Paccar having to source other engines, so they decided to go with their European division DAF for engines. Cat was the preferred engine in this area so there were a lot of "anxious" people in this area..
Its the same for a lot of other manufacturers as well... The moment emission regulation comes into play reliability drops.
I feel like Mr. Rogers just told me how my cat died
MattMN2FL 😂
I work at a Kenworth dealer. We still sell a lot of Cat parts for older trucks but some are becoming hard to get. They don’t get enough good cores back to rebuild so we have very long lead times on pumps, injectors, cylinder heads, etc
LOL
@@zythr9999 I thought lead times were bad 4 years ago 🤣
I'm a locomotive engineer, cat and progressive rail gobbled up EMD. The cat loco engines load good. I don't mind running them at all
In other words, couldn't pass emissions
Ell Jay
🤭 Yep 😂
Nope, emissions regulations made the engines not last like CAT wanted. They always produced 1 million mile engine designs that is nearly impossible with today's emissions that typically need a full rebuild at half those miles.
Exactly. I work for Cat, and although I'm not an expert on the engines, I talk to a lot of the engineers and higher ups. They all said ultimately it was the emissions standards why Cat decided not to build the engines anymore. They knew they had legendary engines before but realized meeting the emissions standards would make their engines a shell of what they used to be, so they decided to just concentrate on the off-highway engines.
Robert Polkamp as an owner of 2 cats and 4 Detroits . Cats cost twice as much to overhaul and the detroits consistently get better fuel milage . So as an owner I. Prefer blueberries over bananas all day long
in other wards they dont want to play the game with the morons
They say you can't keep everyone happy in this case EPA couldn't keep CAT happy. CAT left the game. In other words CAT literally build this modern world.
I drove a 1988 Bluebird school bus with an 8.2L Cat engine. Somebody forgot to govern this engine. School buses back then were all almost governed down 65 mph. Us drivers would hold them on the floor sort of like cruise control. The first trip I took on this bus was an out of town trip to a basketball game on I-55. Anyhow I noticed I was passing everything on the road. I looked down & I was running over 90 & still gaining speed. I would've never believed it if I hadn't seen it myself.
My dad used to drive a Kenworth dump truck with a cat in it and he loved it and I remember him ranting about how cat was being phased out of trucks
I can still here the growl of a 3406 b in one of our farm trucks 20 years ago, best truck engine ever built
Because a company called dog started making truck.
I've heard that with school buses, there was a deal with the government that they would get you a new bus, but you had to damagethe old Cummins or Cat with no emissions. You had to put some liquid in the motor and run it until it was seezed, and then you would get a new bus. That's enough to make me want to just keep the older ones.
i've heard you just make up shit to make trump look good.
That makes sense considering thats sounds exactly like the Obama ministrations cash for clunkers. The liquid your thinking of is sodium silicate. They drained the oil filled it up with that stuff and ran it wide open till it locked up
@@1835dueber Bro I didn't want to bring up Trump, but shit, you gotta quit ripping on him. It takes a lot of work to become a president, I don't think I could do what he did. Trump wasn't my first choice of election either, but he is what I consider the lesser of two evils. I don't expect you to agree with me, but I wish people would stop making fun of Trump. He got elected; cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.
Had an 87 359 with a 4 in a quarter an a 15 over in the ashtray final gear driver. Had that truck forever. That little kitty ran clean and didnt burn oil. Pull trottle out to 1000rpm and sleep like a baby in that ol flat top.
Any ol skool hicks remember those days?
Yep sure do, always said I knew my cat better than I knew the wife's backside, I could have been in the sleeper sound asleep let that four in a quarter make the slightest different noise I was awake.
Once they stopped producing the mechanical cat engine it went down hill from there.
However, my 379 heavy haul truck is still cat powered. Started with a 6nz. Then when we rebuilt the engine, we rebuilt it to a c18. Best electronic cat ever.
2000 pete 379exhd, c18, cat brake saver, 18+2, 3.73 gears. Full double framed. 20k front, 20k tag, 48k drives.
Almost a real heavy haul truck lol
C Mackenzie Awww...hahaha...you got jokes 😁
20mcarroll02 Nice👍
Lol I'm a westernstar guy as you may have guessed from my pic. I run the same engine on a tri drive winch tractor. 90lbs planetarys with a 18 & air shift 4 speed a box. And my other one is the same but with a automatic main. Both gliders.
3406 was my favorite out of them all. Hands down
Mississippi Mud Team the excavation company I used to work for had the 3406b in there 81 kenworth and the things never broke down. Then he got this Stirling with a cat c7 and that thing was junk
The thing would go into this limp mode and we couldn't figure it out. Come to find out it was because the coolant level sensor was bad. Like wtf.
blindabinda123 the e model 3406 was my favorite out of the 3406
blindabinda123 only truck that we had go into limp mod was a MACK we changed every filter, sensor, Even bought a new ECM from Mack witch was a fortune and it’s still in limp mode, it’ll barely pull an empty flatbed across the lot in low gear
Mississippi Mud Team what engine does it have and what code is coming up? ? It's probably the heui pump not putting out enough pressure. The fuel systems are garbage on new trucks.
I am a retired owner operator, had a 3406B in a KW T800 and a Cummins N14 in an International 9400,
Both were excellent engines and I got over a million miles on each without ever taking the heads off.
Not entirely true. I work for a CAT dealership. CAT got out of the truck engine market because the top brass at CAT did not want to subscum to the EPA and it's draconic regulations.
Garrett thats the story I heard
Alexandra Ocasio-Crtez and Greta Thunberg would be mad at you.LOL Long live CAT, Detroit and all of the other great Diesel engines
California is fucking up everything with gears and grease.
"Succumb" is the word.
@@JohnCamp ...and anything with testicles. See Jeffery Starr, James Charles, et al. 🤣🤦♂️
Because CAT was to busy making generators for all the US FOB's in the Middle East.
The cat truck wasn’t a cat truck. It was a Navistar truck with cat badges on it. Also the maxxforce 13 was a complete shit box.
Navistar engines (and a lot of others ) were ruined by govt. regulations. Talk to Diesel truck owners, emission regs, DEF, electronic injectors cause down time for pretty much any brand engine. Too bad the govt ruined something as dependable as the Diesel engine.
Yup, a "Catanational"
maxxypad you meant lmao
The Navistar MaxxForce 13 engine used a Cat C-13 engine block painted black. That MX-13 engine, produced by international, was just a cat motor with different fuel setup. I had one in a 2010 prostar, and it pulled just like my C-13 in a Kenworth. They did have to change the EGR valve because of the recall, but that was the only updated I ever had to make.
@@4thstooge75 navistar maxxforce engine engineered with germany m.a.n. trucks...
I had about 15 CAT's, all 3208 or 1160 V8's. Not their greatest models, they were non sleeved. But the 3406 Big Rig engine was quite popular. People seemed to start losing enthusiasm when it went to the 3406"E" as in Electronic engine. This was the beginning of engines that you controlled only indirectly, and required a computer for tuning and differing horsepower. My main beef with CAT was that their parts were so expensive. Cummins or IHC or the old Detroit Diesels were so simple anybody could fix them, the end of mechanical NON-electronic diesels was a sad day. Yeah, the new stuff is powerful, much cleaner, and gets better fuel mileage. But the complexity.......
I was never sure of cat till I got one. Then the yellow feline had more torque than my other trucks. For my application I ran single axle trucks. The C10 was a great engine. Didn’t really need to do much to them till around 500k. After owning 2 c10’s and a C12 I can honestly say they were the best engines I’ve ever owned and ran. And the people I sold them to are still working them every day.
I thought the major reason for coming out of the truck market was that Cat were supplying engines into a very price sensitive market (I.e., taking a smaller profit per engine) whilst their machine groups were being starved of engines needed for the less price sensitive machines. The profit lost by not being able to deliver machines to the market was not being made up by the sales of loose engines. Add to that the overall growing demand for engines for machine groups and all of s sudden it makes a lot of sense to withdraw from the truck market. I worked for Cat for nearly ten years and one thing they always focused on was making a profit.
Still running my 2003 Intl 9400i with original Detroit Diesel 12.7L-470Hp non-egr which was one of the very last ones ever built. Just had it rebuilt in 2016 at 1,031,000 miles and now at 1,139,000 miles and still kickin' ass. I loved the 3406E-435Hp but this Detroit still chugging right along at 7+mpg with near zero smoke between gears. If I take care of this engine, it should easily last another ten or more years. I bought the truck 8-years ago and would be happy with it for another 10-years no problem. It's a shame the loss of CAT in the truck market but our Lafayette plant is still putting out CAT engines for gensets, marine, and heavy equipment and I hope that continues for a long time to come.
Hey James, good informative post! I used to think it was great to get 300,000 miles out of an 855 Cummins or any of the old 2 stroke Detroits. When the Series 60 came out, I was curious....then my buddy who is an Absolute Master Wrench said he tore one down at a million miles, and found very little wrong with it. And folks said they'd get one mpg better than any other engine available... I guess Roger Penske got it right! They run the 60 in Mexico, pulling double 45 foot trailers in their "Kenmexes"--they push the engine to 600 hp, with I think a 16 or 18 speed gearbox. Those boys can DRIVE down there, but the bad roads mean Many Many accidents.
Apparently a lot of truckers down here in Australia were pretty pissed of by this move.
Not only did it hurt on the road trucks, trucks sold to the DOD was hit hard too. Look up Oshkosh MK-23/27, LVS/LVSR, MAT-V and MRAP Cougars. All of those vehicles has Cat engines with Allison transmissions.
The nail in the coffin was the REGEN system that came out about 2007. They were constantly screwing up and CAT couldn't make an engine that would pass emmissions standards. The big engine market died for CAT.
EPA killed CAT truck engines
pretty much so
Obama did it
@Thystaff Thywill BS bro he was the worse president of all time
CAT has the largest presence in construction, mining, energy...they doubled down on that market.
Those DPFs are a pain in the ass.
@OttovonEarth F the trillions PISSED away with the Clean Air Farce. The U S spends billions on this shit...China does what it wants...a good reason China made junk cost less. You're a tree hugging idiot...like that Communist, AOC!
it's a shame. A big cat meaning a 3406 or c15 back then was good for million miles for otr truck. Then rebuild them and still go another 750k. Never see that kind of longevity out of any of these new emissions motors. Don't cry wolf to me about emissions and a carbon footprint when these new motors are essentially shit around 400k miles. If they even go that far without an inframe or other issues. The amount of natural resources to produce these junk motors and their limited lifespan emission systems is much greater than an old single turbo cat that last 3 times as long. These new motors don't last long enough and save enough fuel to make it worth all their trouble and short lifespan if you ask me. I got a 2012 389 with a cummins and with 450k on it it's been rebuilt 3 times!!!! Our 2002 379 with a 6nz has 1.1 million on it and hasn't been rebuilt yet!
slr379 I used to work for a LTL company and drove a CNG (compressed natural gas) tractor pulling a trailer around town, but it was a gutless wonder and didn't come close to a diesel, and that thing was on it's 3rd upper rebuild because it burned so hot, and didn't compare to the older engines made years ago.
slr379x that's because it's a ISX , worst motor Cummins ever made
the difference between their best and worst isn't that big haha. We had a couple old internationals, one had a n14 electronic and the other an older big cam 400 and every 350k the upper end was cooked or constant turbo problems. I'm sorry but I can't say we've really ever had a bad CAT.
slr379x blame that on the manufacturer, not the legislation.
slr379x
Seeing an emissions engine go 400 k and needing a rebuild , and then adding all the resources going into a rebuild , I see no carbon footprint savings.
Cat did hot want to put the money needed into R&D for making a emissions compliant engine. They started to try with the twin turbo models and gave up. Cheaper to buy the tech from another engine manufacturer ....my .25c
It's a shame because there's nothing better than a Pete 379 with a Cat engine in it. especially the larger displacement engines like C 15 or larger. and preferably a 15 speed road ranger transmission.
Cat got out of the highway truck engine business also because while they were able to meet emission standards without the use of DEF, the government said no, you will use DEF. Cat said screw you.
DEF was a main reason CAT stopped making truck engines, as CAT engineers couldn't make a CAT engine work well utilizing DEF.
The good news is that the EPA is rumored to stop mandating diesel engines be equipped with DEF systems, as their recent studies have concluded that DEF emissions are more harmful to wildlife than previously thought.
CAT is said to be reconsidering getting back into the truck engine market now that DEF is no longer a requirement. Let's hope!
@Blind Squid I have a friend that lost his job because he is badly allergic to def & had many medical issues from it while stuck in traffic with many other semi's during rush hour traffic in the PNW, doctors tried to lie to him and play games... he had to go to a specialized medical facility in Portland, Or. to get tested... and result's were that DEF cause it from the vehicle's during the burn process - Basically anytime he goes out now he has to were a mask anytime he's remotely near a Semi /w DEF... So Another Trucker Lost to Stupid Reason's
What's stupid is that DEF technology reduces fuel mileage. So you have to burn thru more diesel. How is that saving the environment.
DEF is bad for you and the environment. If you read the bottle on how to handle it this will shock you. so def is crap it doesn't do a dam thing uther than gas you out and cost twice as much as the pump
There is no mandate to use DEF, its just the cheapest and most efficient solution.
Actually, no, DEF INCREASES fuel mileage. It allows the engine to be less reliant on EGR, which means it runs cleaner and more time between regens.
They need to come back with an economical moster and retake what really belongs to them.
Anyone who has ever driven a truck with a CAT motor knows they were by far the best pulling engine you could buy! However the 379 Pete I used to drive only got at best 4/5mpg. The average was about 4.7mpg. The EGR valve was one of the worst emissions control ever invented! It recirculates dirty carbon filled exhaust back through the motor. That along with the DEF systems now in all new trucks. It is the biggest problem with truck engines today! It adds so much more cost and breakdowns that it is really becoming an epidemic!! I would never even consider buying a diesel pick up truck today! Too much goes wrong with all the emissions crap and the DEF system!!
Does the 2005 Peterbilt 379 C15 also do that?
I've only driven one truck with a Caterpillar engine, it was a 1999 Sterling single axle day cab, and had a Caterpillar C12 in it with a direct drive straight 10 Speed. It was okay. I've actually found the Cummins ISX 15 to be a decent pulling motor as long as it's with a true manual trans, forget it with the auto shifts
@@NITO3570 No, it doesn't. 2005 C-15 is using Accert and doesn't have an EGR valve, hence the longevity of the engine. EGR system overload the engine (thermally)very much and causing premature failures and damage .
Avoiding this "mechanical hemorrhoid "(EGR system) Cat was still making reliable and efficient, yet clean engines but EPA rules had no mercy....
To relieve the thermal loading on your C-15 Accert you can do something simple and effective -- replace the original exhaust manifold with the high performance one (PDI,Pittsburgh Power,Bully Dog....)
Works as advertised and you'll feel the benefits immediately (literally).
Engine pulls easy ,gains 1/3-1/2 mpg and have more power between 1200and 1500rpm.
I did it about half a million miles ago and I'm very happy so far 1 377 862 miles on the odometer (900 000 of them mine) and I'm still with the original turbos, water pump, 5 fuel injectors (replaced #2 150 000 miles ago),head gasket....
The engine hasn't been open yet!
This engine is one of my best and wisest investments in my life!👍🍻
Guergui Stoyanov awesome man! What a relief... so when did they implement all that crap into the C15? 2006 and beyond I’m guessing?
@@NITO3570 2007 + and Cat wasn't able to meet the EPA emissions standards for 2010 and gave up and went out of game of making on-highway engines. If you ever see some shabby ugly looking old Freightliner Century (occasionally Columbua) with 2 mufflers/stacks those are with last Cat engines (black or baby blue, old "Warner" trucks)
They are not very expensive and you have a good chance to find something which is worth the money. Good luck!👍
P. S. Kind of misunderstanding (my bad) in my first reply saying "No,it doesn't." I've meant that Cat doesn't have "mechanical hemorrhoid",aka EGR system.
BTW,in a good days, especially if I have time to drive with 63-64 mph my truck regularly is better than 6.7 mpg and makes my wallet very happy. 😂
Cat has a dinosaur business plan. Since they can't seem to adapt to a changing market. They developed the "if you can't beat them, buy them approach." Going with a horrible international engine was a bad call.
Been wrenching on caterpillars for 30+ years and the only caterpillar on road engine I couldn’t stand was the 3116. Gutless, hard starting when cold and setting up injection timing was a pita. I was so happy when the 3126 HEUI took its place.
Excellent run down of the demise of CAT in the truck business. Really was downhill after the 3406/08! thanks!
Makes you wonder what changes CAT would have made to stay competitive in over the road truck engines
Change of government to get rid of the Nazi EPA regime.
I owned a fleet of 18 wheel trucks back in the 90s. always ran 3406 cats. they were great engines but the fuel mileage sucked. we would struggle to get 5 mpg. then when Detroit diesel developed the electronic controlled engine you could get a mile per gallon better with cruise control and speed limiting capability thrown in. I switched over to Detroit and dropped cat. I would say poor fuel mileage killed cat more than anything.
I heard the same thing, the Series 60 was a Wunder Motor! Long long life and great fuel mileage.
CAT was originally the off-road king. Then they went into transportation power. You're right about them, they didn't fair as well as they others in how they produced power or fuel consumption. Been that way for decades. Maybe its not so bad they got out but at least they decided and said to the EPA, your idea, you deal with it.
5mpg?so hard...my trucks is 15 years old m.a.n.....mechanical turbodiesel 12 litres inline 6 410hp...gross is 40metric tonns...fuel cons is 9,33 us gall in 62,5miles...this is 6,7 mpg...5 years ago gross is 50 metrictonns fuel cons:5,6mpg......3406 cat is 14,6 litres m.a.n. tga 19.410 eng is just 11,95 liters....
@@zsoltlukacs8438 again, comparing a cat to something coming out of Europe is never going to give a favorable outcome for anything American really
I worked on Cat 3208's for years on single axle and twin axle dump trucks. They were notoriously under powered and high maintenance. Loaded, they could barely get out of their own way.
Thanks for the explanation.
Brings back memories of the ADE V series that Merc used here in South Africa.
Loud and very powerful.
I rewired a dyno at the reman facility that Cargo had in the days when one could just get an engine swap from the dealer.
When testing a 16 cyl they just used a fire hose on the intercooler and not much could be seen through the steam.
Don't see Merc's around like one used to when they had those power plants.
It's mainly Internationals followed by Volvo's and Scania's.
Very few Mack, Kenworth or Western Star's to be seen here.
During my trucking career I drove one Cat C12, three Cummins (N14 and ISX), and a Detroit Series 60. The Detroit was my favorite.
seems to me if you loosen air quality restrictions, engine manufacturers could build a VERY high quality and reliable unit
I have a friend who is an engineer at CAT. It wasn't so much as emissions specifically as it was their partner for the electronics couldn't produce the ECM and sensors that passed CAT required quality inspections.
that's absolutely not true it was the change of management
I'm inclined to believe my friend as he actually worked in the engine division.
+Tim Graham thats ok u can believe ur liar of a friend.
+Tim Graham lol hahhaha IM JUST KIDDING BEEEACH! I DONT KNOW ANYTHINGG ABOUT CAT FUCKIN EGG FAAARTS
No
This is a very sad story. The speaker leaves out all mention of ACERT, which actually was a superior system at killing Nox and particulate at the same time. Their 2007 adaptation was complex, though there were advantages in terms of engine stress and oil deterioration. ACERT cleverly used very high turbo pressure, efficient charge air cooling, and early, variable valve timing to cool intake air and improve combustion. Part of the recipe was increased airflow and, together with the increased thermal efficiency of the engine, this meant more regeneration of the DPF, which also was larger as the exhaust fed back into the intake (with Clean Gas Induction) passed through it. A spark plug was needed to ignite the regeneration fuel, too--more complexity. Sadly, while ACERT gave far superior oil analysis reports in 2003 engines, the high complexity of the 2007 DPF and Clean Gas Induction systems seemed to create a lot of trouble. I suspect Cat could have fixed those problems and added SCR for 2010. But, as a manufacturer of diesels mostly used in construction, and in a market where truck manufacturers increasingly wanted vertical integration (fewer engine options), it seemed not to make sense to stay in the truck market. Cat ACERT continues to be used in non-vehicular applications and is an excellent combustion improver, to the point where the oil sees so little soot, the engine takes longer than normal to break in.
Good video. Thanks. But I think you soft-pedaled the real reason. Because the real reason should strike an ominous chord in every free American. IMHO, of course.
I'm not an engineer, a truck mechanic or an environmental scientist. I am an attorney who observed the issues that highway diesel engines were having as a result of tightening EPA requirements in 2007, and made even more stringent for engines produced in 2010 and afterwards. Design engineers were faced with very difficult challenges trying to meet these standards. They would spend years trying to find and tweak technology. I don't know the inside story at CAT, but I bet that CAT just thought it was not worth the effort in the truck segment. So they stopped selling diesels for the truck industry in 2010 when the latest (for that time) EPA standards hit. They saved themselves years of costly design effort from 2007 to 2010 when they would have been required to intensely design and test to be up and ready by 2010 with a highway compliant engine. From what I learned, EGR technology would be essential just to have a chance at meeting 2010 standards, along with a separate particulate filter that required trucks in some applications to pull over periodically and idle to burn off particulates, and who knows what else. These changes would amount to a major re-design of their diesel engines. CAT made a sober business decision given that it had so many other channels to sell diesels not subject to highway emissions regulations.
But the real story here is the way the EPA became an instrument of government control keeping highway truck owners and operators from having engines of their choice by squeezing down the emissions standards every few years. And for what? Trucks sold in America, by 2007, were already low in emissions compared with much of the rest of the world. The higher cost of these engines contributed to increasing the cost for Americans to transport goods, and drove up the prices of goods. The difference between standards in 2007 and those in 2010 and 2013 were catastrophic for diesel truck engine performance and reliability, adding more cost and waste. Were the environmental gains worth it when the rest of the world, outside of some of Europe, had no corresponding burden on their emissions? How much did "the planet" really gain from it? How much international commerce did American companies lose in competition with companies in other countries operating without these draconian emissions standards?
I believe that individuals ensconced in the EPA decided long ago that they wanted eradicate the highway diesel engine. They could not take the political hit of simply outlawing the engine, so they just periodically tightened emissions standards to do the job over time. They want all of you to be limited to electric engines, and then they want you to get electricity from wind and solar. The government doesn't want to wait for capitalism to work to evolve new power sources for trucks. The government wants to impose its choices and force-feed them to you now. Of course, the electrical infrastructure is not even in place, and trucks may need to make frequent charging stops slowing the progress of goods. I speculate that electric trucks are likely have higher per mile costs than diesel. Further, that policy makes us even more vulnerable to physical and cyber attacks on the grid. It is a scary thought that these EPA bureaucrats are not elected, and I doubt that our elected representatives even know about this forced diesel phase-out. The EPA bureaucrats work in obscurity because the media chooses not to shine a light there.
So, again IMHO, the short answer that other commentators on this video have said is that the EPA showed CAT the exit ramp on highway diesels, and soon will be directing all of the other diesel truck engine manufacturers to the exits.
And nobody ever asked you for your opinion on it, did they? Because the government can make much better choices than a free and informed capitalist society does, right? Just ask the common people in Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, and the former Soviet Russia....
Well said Tom, good observations too!
Can we all say New World Order!! Its coming unless a whole lot of people pull their heads out of their asses, everything Tom said is true, and the NWO does not have our best interests at heart!!!
@@NakedDave100 Dave: Thanks. It hasn't got any better, right? The federal government decided to start shutting down permits for oil pipelines and development of new oil fields etc. before all of the electric infrastructure is in place. The inevitable result - gas price increases approaching a dollar, and I bet diesel is up too. All because our government wants to follow their own NWO agenda despite what might be best for the forgotten people of this great country. You are right on, Dave.
Cat was losing around $500.00 per truck engine because of EPA. The 425 to 475 mechanical were the best. I am a retired Cat assembler.
Owned 6 trucks 475 cat was by far the best especially when climbing high mountainous terrain
Emissions control is great up to a point, certainly hydrocarbon /soot reduction is essential, but the extreme limits on NOx are a bit out of control.
Paul G did a delete on a truck and it is doing 9L/100kms less fuel consumption after delete.
Explain how that works.
Plus, the truck was costing around $25,000 a year in related repairs of the Soc, EGR and Dpf system, not including loss of work.
It is a scam, front to back.
well it sounds like your delete also includes a proper tune.
It's funny, the emission controls are part of if not the only reason for higher NOx.
igostupidfast3 , higher NOx is a consequence of running the engine leaner, a diesel running leaner runs more efficiently. So if you want to get the most energy out of an ounce of fuel then you will produce more NOx.
@@paulg444 actually Nox ist to do with heat of combustion. Not really to do with running lean. It's a nasty side effect of having good combustion. But we have SCR systems that deal with it.
Cat Never really looked to figure the emissions out in ways that Volvo or Iveco (CNH Industrial) had already in the works in the way of just pump DEF into the exhaust and they did use more DEF but did not require EGR or to Regen and now they just regen passive which is much easier to do than to force it
Government regulations. Cat couldn't meet the new EPA standards without spending a buttload of money and they have such big stakes in other industries they dropped the otr engines. Regulations made it unprofitable.
It was a good move for CAT, they sold their Diesel engine line and acquired EMD from GM. Given the fact freightliner is most likely going to have its full electric trucks on the highway almost 2 years early it’s a good idea to exit diesel production. CAT made a smart choice for longevity, the emissions and reliability issues just made it easier to stay in markets that won’t see electric for years.
Love my cats!! Owned a 1693 for twenty years.. currently have a 3406B.. love it!!
Have an N14 too.... Not impressed! I swear the 3406B rated at less horse power than the N14, will run circles around it!
Would love to repower and dump the N14!
Great video, thank you for the enlightenment!
You can still buy brand new CAT C15 ACERT truck engines from CAT in Australia, however they can’t be installed in brand new trucks, only re-powers. Also the CAT truck in Australia had a CAT C15 but was a poor selling truck. Caterpillar plus Kenworth was an unbeatable combination in Australia and there were a lot of p****d off owners when they pulled out. Kenworth in Australia actually built up a big stockpile of CAT engines when they knew Caterpillar were going to pull out. My 3408 in my KW has done around 7,000,000 kms and it’s still going strong.
7.000.000 !!!!! wow !!!! i have few C12 with 800 hours on it (we schedule by hours, not miles) and i am praying to hold a bit longer ... !! a cummins or another good brand holds for 4000 hours without big trouble
Cat trucks in Australia are rebranded International Prostars.
Max Love did you not listen to what he said, it was all about the emissions nothing to do with the accert, the accert is a problem motor but not the reason why Cat got out of truck engine's.
And it uses fuel likes it got a hole in the tank?
eloyex, 800 and 4000 hours? are you sure you are not missing a zero on each of those numbers?
I've got old farm machinery that has 7000+ - 10+K hours on stock engines that were back in their day considered the weak ones and I regularly work on industrial equipment that has 20K - 30+K hours on engines that are near bone stock sans external components like starters, alternators, water pumps, turbos and some injection system parts.
Beyond that I have worked with gen sets that have had 40K - 50+K hours on all stock engines. So to me your 800 and 4000 hour numbers seem suspiciously low!
There also big in the oil field. 90% of our engines are cat 3512c
There is no engine in the world like Cat. Cat is simply the best on contraction machines, trucks, power unites etc. There is nothing to argue about it.
This is an easy question to answer. Because Caterpillar said why when they stopped. Emissions controls. Emissions controlled engines produce more pollutants, burn more fuel, are less reliable, less durable, and produce less power for the same displacement as a conventional engine. Caterpillar wasn't willing to play that game with their reputation and company.
What makes them produce more pollutants? The DeF?
After working on trucks for 40 years, I was surprised and angry that Cat got out of the truck engine biz. But I don't blame the EPA, they set out to stop pollution and clean our air because that's what we wanted them to do and they have done what the people wanted. It's too bad that companies like Cat decided to invest in other technologies, but that is what companies do, they invest their money where they get the best return. It's a new world and our grand-children will never see the smog that I grew up with and we should be happy for that.
The EPA started with good intentions.... After decades of administration growing like a cancer it now has ridiculously impossible standards. We should roll back to early EPA standards and we won't have smog and we can still have good trucks.
@@joelx77 No! Corporations are still trying to poison our air and water! I'm old enough to remember what it was like before 1972, and I remember all the fights between the vested interests and the EPA in Congress. The EPA is needed more then ever! And BTW "good trucks"? You do realize that in ten years all new trucks will be electric? The idea that a trucker has to pay $600 to travel 400 miles is way beyond common sense.
You can also order a C15 in parts. The company I work for specializes in that in Canada. Just took out a blown ISX in a Peterbilt and tossed in a C15 built on an engine stand with parts only. It just takes a long ass time to make sure you have everything.
I worked with C13s in tour buses.
They were very problematic.
I was an in-use emissions engineer for Cummins during the 07 crackdown and I understood the reason for Cats exit was because their warranty claims were thru the roof based on sulfuric acid corrosion. I have no first hand experience with Cats but was told they took exhaust downstream and recirculated it back to the cylinder, but the gas path was so far that the gas cooled and the sulfur condensed, creating the sulfuric acid corrosion problem.
That did happen - but it affected the aftercooler not the engine. New aluminium grades had to be developed to cope with the acid. The benefit was no soot in the engine - and less heat for the EGR cooler to deal with - some really good ideas - but as a whole it didn't work.
@@iansouthman3882 Makes sense until you learn how destructive sulfuric acid is and realize it has a low dew point. I dealt with sulfur corrosion a lot in my career and coal burning power plants deal with it by having redundant systems in place to ensure the back end temp stays above the acid dew point. Components susceptible to corrosion are also coated with different types of ceramics and proprietary coatings. No steel and very few metals can stand up against acid corrosion. Duplex stainless does pretty good, but its not totally immune. Very nasty stuff once it hits the dew point.
When I was driving big trucks, the biggest complaint I heard about CAT was the fuel economy sucked compared to Cummins, and especially Detroit. When the new emission standards really started kicking in in 2003 the fuel economy got worse (4.0-4.5 mpg). Kind of hard to compete with engines that were still getting 6.0-7.5 mph with a decent load.
Excellent and informative video! I've NEVER seen one of those CAT trucks.....Last time I went to our local Freightliner dealer, they were stuffed with Volvos, no Freightliners, and all with a Mercedes engine of sorta small size, I think less than 800 cubic inches. Where's the American stuff? But I KNOW Volvo can build trucks, when I drove in Germany (with my injector pumped jacked by 800 RPM!) nobody could whoop me consistently except for Volvo and Scania, both Swedes to my knowledge. They'd just show up in my mirrors, and cruise right on past me....
What I was told by a CAT dealer was it would be
counter productive and a lot more expensive to
re engineer a CAT engine to conform to present
D.O.T. Standards and EPA regulations..
And doing so would take away most of the power
of the CAT motor that it is famous for in order to
make the changes needed.. So they calculated
that it would be more cost effective to just
discontinue building new CAT motors..
But, there are several millions CAT motors still
working hard out there, and with proper regular
maintenance, and the occasional rebuild, any
CAT motor can damned near last for ever..
Also any CAT motor that is only a few years old,
is virtually worth it's weight in gold.. My former boss
bought about 100 or so Kenworths and all of them
have the older 500 HP CAT engine in them....
I have one of the last 2004 Cat 6NZengines C15 in my '05 KWopper
Hammerdown with unlimited uphill power ! Heeehaw
Had twin 3406 marine diesels in a 75 footer I used to pilot .....I loved those engines
Cat has manufactured engines and machines in China for 45 years where emissions are nearly non-existing. Many of the older production machines ended up there to continue manufacturing mechanical controlled engines.
Have a 3406 e with 1.5 million, about to do a platinum on it
Think they just got rid of glider trucks as well, just saw something on that
Had a 2004 C-15 I wish I still had that engine instead off a DD15 junk.
I have a 2012 ISX15 and im buying a truck with a 1999 CAT 3406E in it. I understand your pain
I know this so well. In the early 2000's a small trucking company here in Oamaru New Zealand held the world's highest payload on any road going truck and trailers. Anyway the guy had early M.S so he squandered all his in laws money on projects which involved buying the first Freightliner and Peterbuilt trucks fitted with Cats. The trucks to achieve high payloads he had to remove passenger seats, spare wheels, add fiberglass springs etc. In the end due to Cat dealer not willing to sell him parts he ended up no paying wages a d borrowing money to buy new engine from overseas just to get the e.c.u and head gear off it... I was the guy who liquidated all his plant for the bank when he went broke. I got 70 grand for the originally spent 2.5 million of gear.... That Cat was a real dog.
in 1996 Paccar bought a truck company called DAF in the Netherlands, 14 years before Cat stopped making engines. When Cat notified them that they were no longer going to be making truck engines, Paccar decided to replace it with the DAF engine. The DAF plant did not have the capacity to supply both the European and the North America markets so Paccar built the engine plant in Columbus, MS to supply engines for the North American market. The DAF engine, now branded Paccar, was not a knock off version of CAT but was developed independently in Europe. The Paccar MX-13 undergoes continuous improvements to improve fuel economy, emissions reductions, torque increases, etc. CAT was certainly a stellar engine. So is the Cummins. Today, when you buy a Kenworth or a Peterbilt (both owned by Paccar) you have the option of the 15 liter Cummins or the 13 liter Paccar engine. Other sizes are available for smaller trucks.
I swear by the Isx15 cummins & pre 07 C15