It’s okay guys, there’s a deep message you guys don’t get, Ross was just misunderstood, he really is a good guy, and John was a piece of shit that killed many of Ross’ men, good innocent men just trying to kill him, John was the real bad guy, not Ross
Joel was a bad guy too but theres the point of it,still being the bad guy,we love him,as much we love john or arthur,its not being morally correct its just find the revenge they deserve,even if they are the bad guys.
This is literally, every excuse TLOU2 fans use to defend that story. I mean, I killed a NPC who had a daughter that later own came to kill me. Sounds bullshit...
@@Glitearsz Actually Joel wasn't bad as Arthur and John. I mean at least Joel was not a criminal, despite being a smugler, he just trends foods and weapons to survive a caotic world his killing methods was there just to survive, nothing much that anyone even Abby around him can judge since everyone was doing that, even WLF and Abby, also Joel spared a girls life to not attempt to hear some children's murderers. They made everything to make Joel look like a horrible person in TLOU2 that there is people that actually believe in that
@@aveteranplayer6403 its actually bullshit, i really hate that fact, i mean if joel has to die fine by me but at least give the pleasure to kill muscle woman,i mean,its just anoying,abby its a grear character (to me at least as a villain) but if she was from another story so far away from ellie and joel story i would really like her, but the things went as we all know so,i just can see her as the villain and nothing else.
@@phamtrunghieu1255 it pleases the wet dream of every liberal critics. What's not to like in there for them? It's in line with their most gratuitous wet dream.
@@phamtrunghieu1255 Because they were paid lots of money/ made by a popular company/the game was actually ok? It was controversial to the fans and the marketing was completely sleazy but the game itself is beautiful, even if the story and the way some of the characters were made was flawed.
@@saturnvalleyswanson224 yeah the game is pretty amazing but i was not sastify finished it, i wish they give us option to make a diffirent ending (like kill abby and revenge for Joe)
John dies 1 hour into game. Play as Milton for next 30 hours Play as jack. Jack forgives Milton after killing his wife, son, friends, associates and coworkers.
and they both walk away, despite jack killing all of Milton's loved ones. because apparently Milton also forgave him? I seriously don't understand why Abby didn't take the chance to kill Ellie, she seems like the type to kill somebody when they let their guard down.
@@tigrispanthera5496 both of them could have just killed each other and ended it, seriously I don't understand why you would stop WHEN YOU HAVE HER RIGHT THERE it would make more sense if she quit halfway though but why would you not kill them when they are at your mercy I mean seriously
I dunno, this is also missing about 20 hours of a walk-and-talk simulator, constant contrivances and plot holes, and a lot of "message." Then you could compare them. Sorry.
@@jackdaone6469 If Neil directed RDR1 and 2: Micah beats Arthur to death with a golf club followed by Edgar beating John to death with a golf club. Jack is determined to kill Ross and avenge the people who have put their lives on the line of save him. But prior to the final confrontation, the game plays a scene where Edgar pets a random dog so that YOU, the player, can feel bad for him, despite Jack not having any knowledge of this event whatsoever. 10/10 Game of the year
This would be even more accurate if jack drop all of his weapons and challenged him to a knife fight for no reason only to give up when he has the upper hand.
Except the narrative of TLOU2 isn’t about that. The first third of the story is about vengeance and escalating violence, the second third is about perspective and the last third is about grief - Abby is learned to be chasing the answer of whether or not she thinks her father would have sacrificed her (something she never got an answer for as the moment with her father was interrupted), while Ellie is proving to herself that she would ultimately have forgiven Joel (and uses Abby as a proxy for that in their final confrontation) It’s as if everyone has forgotten that The Last of Us is heavily inspired by The Road and this is precisely how Cormac McCarthy maps his narratives Ellie lost at her quest for revenge and was defeated by Abby. There is no more vengeance beyond that point in the narrative and that’s why Ellie’s mental state is explored in the last third of the game instead before she then sets out one last time to find Abby.
Both protagonists died pretty brutal deaths at the end of their respective games in the RDR series(well, Arthur only dies semi-brutally if you finish the story with low honor), yet you see almost no one complaining about their deaths since they make sense in the context of the story. Contrast this with TLOU2 where the main character is also killed brutally except this time the story literally goes nowhere. Also, in RDR2, some pretty beloved characters are abruptly killed just like in TLOU2, except these deaths feel more real and impactful. The sudden deaths in TLOU2 feel like plot contrivances and a lazy way to write characters out of the story so that the writing team doesn’t have to think about what to do with them when they make a third game.
nah man, if this was a neil story, they both would have been gay/trans, have a sex scene, and decide not to kill each other while mention other trendy virture signals to try and check off the diversity boxes and then complain that nobody liked the story
People who consider TLOU 2 as a masterpiece have delusional brains and ability to fool their own sense of questioning and perception or they must be bland people who can't have their own opinion and blindly carry over the over-glorified reviews done by sold out game reviewers.
i used to believe Micah was the biggest piece of trash in a game... then i saw Abby, my god in comparison Micah is like a Superhero, at least Micah OWNS his unlikeability and nastiness, Abby literally kills what you love horrendously, Micah even lets Arthur have his Honourable death in High Honour, HOW THE FUCK DRUCKMANN MANAGE TO MAKE A CHARACTER MORE DISGUSTING THAN MICAH? HE WAS DESIGNED TO BE DISGUSTING!
abby actually cared about people and only wanted to kill the person who killed her dad. micah used dutch and manipulated him for his own benefits, he didn’t have a sad backstory or any motives. He just wanted power and money, plus he killed arthur just cause 💀 at least abby had a reason 🙏 abby > that dead rat
Yeah. In a way Micah was a better written character with writers pulling all the right strings to make you despise Micah. But Abby is ironically the opposite with you being forced to like the character while the writers pulled all the wrong strings in order to achieve a goal that was futile.
The narrative of TLOU2 isn’t revenge = bad. The first third of the story is about vengeance and escalating violence, the second third is about perspective and the last third is about grief - Abby is learned to be chasing the answer of whether or not she thinks her father would have sacrificed her (something she never got an answer for as the moment with her father was interrupted), while Ellie is proving to herself that she would ultimately have forgiven Joel (and uses Abby as a proxy for that in their final confrontation) It’s as if everyone has forgotten that The Last of Us is heavily inspired by The Road and this is precisely how Cormac McCarthy maps his narratives Ellie lost at her quest for revenge and was defeated by Abby. There is no more vengeance beyond that point in the narrative and that’s why Ellie’s mental state is explored in the last third of the game instead before she then sets out one last time to find Abby.
I hate it when people oversimplify the plot. Yes, it's okay to not like the game, people have their own opinions, but don't actively leave things out that make it work and make it look incredibly barebones. I haven't played neither TLOU games (PC master race *sniff sniff*) but I wish I could. Anything can look bad if you use the right language. RDR2 is just basically a bunch of cowboys going around killing people. Dark Souls is just some super hard game where you die over and over again. You just run around and kill demons in DOOM.
also jack marston is a female.. and we are supposed to believe she is straight.. her name is jack, and she dresses like a man, has a man's voice, and a beard, and no breasts.. but she is a straight woman in the script so there's nothing weird about it at all.. and when jack marston rides her boyfriend in the sex scene, it looks totally normal
What the H happened to Druckman…..???? Did Queen Anita get in his ear???? Angry Joe had a pretty damn funny sketch during his review of the LOU 2. Really loved the first game, really wish Troy Baker had kind of did a Mark Hamill…..
If the player was given the choice to execute or spare Ross, that is an idea that could work. If I remember correctly John did not want Jack to grow up as an outlaw. In the story Jack became an outlaw to kill Ross so Jack already made his choice. But if the player was put where Jack was at the point in his life where he could choose to be a scholar or an outlaw. Then the choice I mentioned earlier could work. Then the dynamic would be choose to follow your father wishes or deny your father wish to fulfill your own.
The story was void of choice, both games were about the cycles of revenge and the struggle of men against their destinies/fates. Wouldn't of had the same impact if you could've just walked away at the end I think.
@@TheMemeK God, I wish I can play RDR again. I understand what you're getting at. In the end RDR is a tragedy. So the original ending is very fitting. I just realised that the matter of choosing to spare or kill is used in BO2.
I love this game, but I will be honest that I have struggled with Ellie's decision not to kill Abby at the end of the game. If she was going to make peace with Abby, it most likely would have been when she was at home with Dina: after Abby spared her yet again when she easily could have killed her. TWICE. Even Abby's friends want to kill Ellie, and Abby doesn't do it. The fact that Ellie is so consumed by her rage she abandons Dina and her home to travel to Los Angeles to destroy whoever is in her way is not something that can be undone after seeing Abby emaciated or even in seeing Abby carrying Lev the same way she probably imagines Joel carried her throughout the hospital. It is, however, important that we consider the backdrop of which Ellie and Abby are placed in Santa Barbara. The second game plays upon the first game, where the story intensifies and a new kind of enemy needs to be brought into the game that is a representation of a deeper kind of evil: an evil that reaches far beyond the murderous hunters that Joel kills to protect Ellie and beyond the WLF and Seraphites that Ellie decimates in her quest for revenge. In the first game, that higher element of evil is represented by David, who is a trickster figure, offering himself to Ellie as a friend and will even pull clickers off of you and save you only for us to realize that he is not a friend: he is an enemy who couldn't be further from expressing the genuine fatherly emotion that Joel offers. Ellie is at the mercy of Joel and David at different parts of her journey in Part 1, and it is merely by change that Joel is a kind man who loves her like a daughter and isn't another incarnation of David. It is worth noting, however, that David and Joel are the same in one major way. David and Joel present themselves as honest and trustworthy figures from the beginning, but they both, in a very different way, betray her. David is a double for Joel in the sense that their relationships with Ellie begin with her relying on them and having a set of predetermined rules. Ellie wants to make a trade with David for medicine, and she wants to get from point A to point B with Joel. Neither of these figures, even though one is her father and one is her attempted rapist, live up to these promises and both betray, albeit in very different ways. In the second game, the Rattlers take the form of David by raising the stakes of evil in the game. This is important to consider, because it is important for Ellie and Abby to be in the face of true evil and recognize that each woman, even if they are an opposing sides, is not a representation of pure evil, despite the fact that they have taken so much from each other. There are a number of subtle moments in Abby's story when we are witness to her strength of character: the first is when she dives into the water to potentially save Owen. She is petrified of heights, and in the first few moments of us playing as her she jumps into the water, almost with no hesitation, simply because her love might potentially be in danger. We as players have to face that that kind of good-natured person took a character from us that we grew to love from years. Abby also climbs that ridiculous makeshift bridge with Lev in order to retrieve medicine for a stranger. Doubling with the moment where Ellie faces the bloater in the flashback sequence where the game throws a challenge at you that you cannot complete, Abby cannot make it across the bridge. It took me two times of playing the game to realize that Abby is so frightened she actually loses consciousness when she falls off the bridge. She is so petrified and facing a fear so deep that she loses consciousness, and we realize that the challenge of getting from point A to point B in a video game (something that is almost always possible since it's a video game with a beginning, middle, and end) is actually impossible. whatever reason. Somebody mentioned Homer in the comments, and it is central to Homer's poetry in the ILIAD to recognize the enemy as human. Whole books of the poem are dedicated to Hector, even though he is the enemy to the character we are supposed to be cheering on. Achilles does not treat Hector as a human for so much of the poem after Patroclus is murdered, but he does recognize the opposing side as human when he confronts Priam, Hector's father. Priam and Achilles aren't friends, they are very far from amicability, but they have the ability to look at each other as humans, and that is exactly what Ellie and Abby do after fighting each other one last time and after witnessing the purity of evil that the Rattlers present. They are not friends, but they can look at each other as human beings, and that is a monumental journey that many of the people playing this game fail to recognize when they see Abby's perspective: whether they genuinely like her or not. Lastly, Ellie is also in deep need of forgiving someone. She is so tormented, which we do not realize until the final moments of the game, that the night before Joel was murdered she attempted to reconcile with him. That conversation was the beginning of a very different kind of journey what Ellie is used to, but it would have been a monumental journey for her to accept Joel again after he betrayed her deepest wishes. When Abby killed Joel, she lost that opportunity. She feels guilt for having treated her father like crap, and she can't make it up to him. All Ellie has left to do is forgive Abby because she can't forgive Joel anymore. She has lost that opportunity, but she needs to prove to herself that she can forgive someone who has taken something so meaningful from her.
This isn’t necessary coming from forgiveness, but maybe Jack knowing that John would want him to live a life free of bounties and gangs, so he prevents himself from starting a chain reaction that would inevitably leave him with the same fate as his father.
The problem isnt that ellie doesnt kill abby. The problem is that its stupid as hell. Return of the jedi isnt a revenge story but it also involves the hero not killing the villain. First thematically what the starwars saga 1-6 is about is destiny. Luke is at first the hotshot adventurer who wants to see more of the universe and is at his heart is a hero. Then empire turns this upside down with that being the theme with luke hanging upside down and luke learns not only is being a jedi not what he thinks it is and he isnt set out to be the typical hot shot hero he is just as capable of being evil and he is not only reckless and a lot like his father but vader the villain is his father In star wars destiny is fate and george lucas sees fate as many old tales use fate as a means of setting up doom. We see luke is more willing to do things vader has done but beleives he can save vaders soul. However he is only given the options of destroy vader, become him, or die However luke wants to forge his own fate to save his fathers soul and as he stood over his father luke defied the destiny given to him and he refused the duel and this returns vader to the light and throwing the true villain of the skywalker saga down to a pit and we never saw palpatine again. The difference comes from the reasoning. Luke not only sees good in his father but he cant bring himself to end him. What a charater does isnt with the knowlege they are in a story with themes they do things within their own reasoning. Elie has gotten way to far and has done way to much and has gotten way to close and why would you stop last minute. She got this far why stop now. The charater based motive is a last second flash back that comes from nowhere. Flashbacks usually happen when a charater sees a picture of a mommento of the past so that way they it feels like we are being taken back. Here we are just brought to joel talking about forgiveness. so why would this relate to ellie trying to game end abby like you got this far but no random flash back only matters now at the end of the game and not when we started the game. She lost everything atleast get the one thing you might as well. Plus the themes about nothing good comed from revenge works better when the protagonist realizes after losing everything achieving their goal doesnt lead to closure. In a well crafted story about forgiveness it wouldnt be an issue but here ellie is past that and she very much knew before the game began joel wouldnt want any of this so she quits because of a scene that would remind her she never got to patch things between her and joel would make her forgive somebody in completely different circumstances.
you should have included the 10 hour playthrough as ross where he gets humanized and excused for his actions to get you conflicted on who to support during this confrontation
I mean to be fair, Arthur didnt want john to repeat the revenge cycle that he himself went through when those bandits killed his son and his mother for 10 or 12 dollars. And thats exactly what john did when he killed micah for revenge. Which in turn got him on the pinkertons radar and forced him to do their dirty work, which got him killed. He told abigail and jack to not repeat the cycle, to not look back, but guess what, jack does the opposite by killing edgar ross (and his family if you were me, i brutally murdered his family). Its an endless cycle of revenge and redemtion. Which is what ellie in the last of us managed to stop by sparing abby. If joel knew that ellie was gonna go down this path, he would be ashamed. Because that is the path he went through for twenty years before he met ellie. And Arthur would not have wanted john to exact revenge on micah, because he knew what that wouldve lead to. An empty feeling, and consequence. Im really curious to see what would happen in a red dead 3 where you play as jack during the great war or ellie in the last of us 3. Look guys, this is just my take, my opinion if you disagree there is no need to express it. I know we all have our own opinions on red dead and last of us and that is perfectly fine.
Both stories set out in very different ways in exploring the concept of revenge and fate. Red Dead plays much more like a tragedy, where the characters whose lives have been torn apart by the patterns of revenge still can't help but indulge in the cycle of it all - even if it means their own demise (the only exception so far being Jack). The last of us 2 attempts to portray a revenge story where the cycle is broken, but ultimately I think it executes it poorly. The character motivations are often muddled, and I think Ellie sparing Abbey only after brutally executing her entire gang and slaughtering masses of un-named soldiers along the way is a bit ham-fisted and contrary to what the end tries to say. I get where they were coming from though. Overall I think, whilst two different takes on a vaguely similar tale, Red Dead 2's writing pulls off the 'revenge' story better than TLOU2's did. People just getting angry that le epic Joel died however is lame as shit. He's not even a real dude.
@@TheMemeK We are not angry that Joel died it's how. Imagine if rdr2 was released first and John dies in the sequel in 2 hours by forced writing. Yeah people who were fans wouldn't be happy
Literally no one cares Joel died. It's the way he died. I like the message of "break the cycle of revenge" as much as the next guy, but Ellie killed her way through throng of people, she's already there, no going back, and guess what? She decided to leave it unfinished. John went to find Micah who had broken his gang/family, but to go to Micah, he literally only had to go around before straight to the goal. The moment he chose to get revenge, he could step back at any time in that mission but he opted to not and finished his revenge. Ellie, on the other hand, killed her way through with angst and when she faces Abby, she chickened out with that survivor guilt. Imagine John fighting his way to that rundown abode and when Micah came out, he's just "Welp, revenge is bad, better go back." Then, why the fuck did he kill his way through that snowy mountain? It's fucking meaningless. He didn't finish what he started. Ellie started her revenge, it was a point of no going back. If Neil wanted to teach people about "revenge bad" then don't make her start a path of no going back. Just because you decides to not put the final nail in the coffin, that doesn't mean you got scoot off free. Logically, why on earth Abby would let Ellie go after she killed all her friends? Revenge is a poison that can served hot or cold but you have to finish it, else someone else would re-serve it to you. It's just so pathetic. Joel killed Abby's father to protect Ellie, Abby killed Joel for killing her father, and Ellie did no shit back. Good job on the "revenge bad" moral of story. It did shit. I still wonder just how naive and romantic people could be to see the "good" in the plot. As a writer, it burst my mind to pieces at all the illogical choices of the story.
@@rachelciel3330 Yeah, totally agree with you. I do get it the end, but again, I would be able to forgive Abby if she said something nice to Ellie and stop bitching out everything about her. You know, what the hell Abby would expect? Like everyone hates Joel because he "kIlLEd A dOCtor"? Because he saved someones life? Abby did nothing but being a selfish b1tch everytime in the game, the fun fact that she is just like it or even worse that she claimed Joel to be. So that's why she is a unlikeable character, because she was force to be a likeable character, but it keeps thinking that she is the right one she spares Ellie's life and etc. I would say f* that, you still brutally killed Joel, do you think nobody was attached to Joel before? Scr3w you Abby.
@@rachelciel3330 I write myself, and all the illogical inconsistencies were just shit. Scenes jumped perspectives far too often. The first game slowly developed two characters, giving them sole focus aside from some rather minor side characters. It allowed you to connect with them, and not have shit jump around on you every twenty minutes. The most baffling thing for me was how they decided to develop Abby's friends only AFTER Ellie already killed them, so it was much less suspenseful and had much less emotional impact. Personally speaking, in a game, it is just more satisfying to defeat the opponent anyways, particularly the final one.
This is so dumb lol.. like people literally cannot comprehend the ending of TLOU 2 up until this day. The ending isn't just Ellie "forgiving" Abby and not killing her, it's also her saving her and Lev's life from the Rattlers. It's an ironic ending completely in line with the original where Joel dooms humanity, the opposite of what he set out to achieve at the beginning. Similarly, Part 2 ends with Ellie saving the life of the one she set out to extinguish. Why? Because Abby has repeatedly shown growth in her journey and Ellie is technically only alive because Abby spared her life. Now an ironic ending isn't inherently satisfying. But it is a satisfying ending because what it means for Ellie's character. She goes from a revenge seeking monster to a life saving hero even though it wasn't her ambition at the beginning. And sets her on a path of redemption going into Part 3 which will conclude her story.
Honestly it's like Arthur dying and then we're forced to play as Micah
not really
@@matin793 Imagine not knowing how to spell comparing. "Complaining"?
Tbh I'd rather play as Micah rather than Abby
@@lumbagolosis1899 he is kind of badass when he has revolvers akimbo
@@lumbagolosis1899 ok
It’s okay guys, there’s a deep message you guys don’t get, Ross was just misunderstood, he really is a good guy, and John was a piece of shit that killed many of Ross’ men, good innocent men just trying to kill him, John was the real bad guy, not Ross
@Jason Hudson i completely agree with your assessment of red dead redemption’s story but i’m pretty sure this comment was just a joke lol
Joel was a bad guy too but theres the point of it,still being the bad guy,we love him,as much we love john or arthur,its not being morally correct its just find the revenge they deserve,even if they are the bad guys.
This is literally, every excuse TLOU2 fans use to defend that story. I mean, I killed a NPC who had a daughter that later own came to kill me. Sounds bullshit...
@@Glitearsz Actually Joel wasn't bad as Arthur and John. I mean at least Joel was not a criminal, despite being a smugler, he just trends foods and weapons to survive a caotic world his killing methods was there just to survive, nothing much that anyone even Abby around him can judge since everyone was doing that, even WLF and Abby, also Joel spared a girls life to not attempt to hear some children's murderers. They made everything to make Joel look like a horrible person in TLOU2 that there is people that actually believe in that
@@aveteranplayer6403 its actually bullshit, i really hate that fact, i mean if joel has to die fine by me but at least give the pleasure to kill muscle woman,i mean,its just anoying,abby its a grear character (to me at least as a villain) but if she was from another story so far away from ellie and joel story i would really like her, but the things went as we all know so,i just can see her as the villain and nothing else.
Even this is more believable than what happened in last of us 2, at least jack wasn’t forced to watch as john was humiliated and beaten to death.
By a transgender bodybuilder feminist edgar ross for that matter
i still dont know why tlou2 got the game of the year despire all those hates. That game shits on the prequel to me
@@phamtrunghieu1255 it pleases the wet dream of every liberal critics. What's not to like in there for them? It's in line with their most gratuitous wet dream.
@@phamtrunghieu1255 Because they were paid lots of money/ made by a popular company/the game was actually ok? It was controversial to the fans and the marketing was completely sleazy but the game itself is beautiful, even if the story and the way some of the characters were made was flawed.
@@saturnvalleyswanson224 yeah the game is pretty amazing but i was not sastify finished it, i wish they give us option to make a diffirent ending (like kill abby and revenge for Joe)
My expectations were definitely subverted. 9/10, it would have been a 10/10 if Jack was instead a pregnant woman.
Tlou2 fans would unironically find this satisfying
Jack deciding not to become the very thing that John never wanted for him? Yes, that would be satisfying.
@@jameslanier2510 You are a lil TLOU2 fan arent ya?
@@dancinginstarlight8390 Nah I'm kinda tall.
@@jameslanier2510 damn and unfunny too I see
@@dancinginstarlight8390 Bro, that's a straight up compliment coming from you.
John dies 1 hour into game.
Play as Milton for next 30 hours
Play as jack.
Jack forgives Milton after killing his wife, son, friends, associates and coworkers.
and they both walk away, despite jack killing all of Milton's loved ones. because apparently Milton also forgave him? I seriously don't understand why Abby didn't take the chance to kill Ellie, she seems like the type to kill somebody when they let their guard down.
@@Swordsoulreaver because she was over it and just wanted to move on 💀
@@tigrispanthera5496 both of them could have just killed each other and ended it, seriously I don't understand why you would stop WHEN YOU HAVE HER RIGHT THERE it would make more sense if she quit halfway though but why would you not kill them when they are at your mercy I mean seriously
@@Mr.Scott86 because it wouldn’t bring joel back and that’s all ellie wanted
@@tigrispanthera5496 no what she wanted was to kill Abby, that whole "it wont bring them back" is Disney channel bullshit in my opinion
Man if you only you added a flashback with John and Jack being together it would have been perfect
I'll make a sequel
@@TheMemeK Where is it?
I dunno, this is also missing about 20 hours of a walk-and-talk simulator, constant contrivances and plot holes, and a lot of "message." Then you could compare them. Sorry.
I thought Edgar Ross was gonna beat Jack with a golf club...
No, that’s the Neil Druckmann version of John’s death.
@@jackdaone6469 If Neil directed RDR1 and 2:
Micah beats Arthur to death with a golf club followed by Edgar beating John to death with a golf club. Jack is determined to kill Ross and avenge the people who have put their lives on the line of save him. But prior to the final confrontation, the game plays a scene where Edgar pets a random dog so that YOU, the player, can feel bad for him, despite Jack not having any knowledge of this event whatsoever.
10/10 Game of the year
*has a flashback to that time John talked to him about a book
Jack: no, im the one that's wrong.
The ending of TLOU2 was less realistic than a world taken over by zombies scenarios.
This would be even more accurate if jack drop all of his weapons and challenged him to a knife fight for no reason only to give up when he has the upper hand.
You skipped the part where he killed everyone in his path to get to ross and al of Ross's friends just to let ross live.
It's ok Ross.
You may have ruined my life as I know it but I forgive you.
You missed the part where we play as Ross for the majority of the game and switch to his backstory when him and the army kill John.
that was an L
Rdr2 proved that revenge was a fools game in a MUCH better way than tlou2
Finally someone with some sense
Except the narrative of TLOU2 isn’t about that.
The first third of the story is about vengeance and escalating violence, the second third is about perspective and the last third is about grief - Abby is learned to be chasing the answer of whether or not she thinks her father would have sacrificed her (something she never got an answer for as the moment with her father was interrupted), while Ellie is proving to herself that she would ultimately have forgiven Joel (and uses Abby as a proxy for that in their final confrontation)
It’s as if everyone has forgotten that The Last of Us is heavily inspired by The Road and this is precisely how Cormac McCarthy maps his narratives
Ellie lost at her quest for revenge and was defeated by Abby. There is no more vengeance beyond that point in the narrative and that’s why Ellie’s mental state is explored in the last third of the game instead before she then sets out one last time to find Abby.
Not funny
@@Damon242 except we don’t care
@@oimate6357 you cared enough to enter into this chain of conversation, that says plenty on its own
You forgot the part with the flashback to his dad in the barn, before holstering the pistol.
stunning and brave
Ross: Now get out of here before I kill you as well!
Jack: "Thank you for the information sir" AKA "Understandable, have a nice day"
XD Yeah
thIs IS aLl timE MasTeRPIeCe.
*10/10 mAsTeRpIeCe*
- basically every game journalists
🤡
Cry and cope
@AssClapCowboy L + ratio + bozo + didn't ask + fatherless + cope harder
Imagine Doom Eternal by Neil Druckmann...
0/10 no cut to john playing guitar
The last of us 2 fans: bEsT eNdInG eVEr!! 👌😄❤🏳️🌈
cry
@@tigrispanthera5496 Says a lot about you with all these same comments. Defending tlou2 is all over the place with you.
@@danielbold6167 “defending lou2” lmfao i hate the last of us 2, but i’ll defend gay ppl any day
@@tigrispanthera5496 You really got triggered by that lmao, back to Twitter.
@@elpiedra1596 i’m not the one trigged by a gay couple in a video game 💀
I started laughing when the emotional music started playing after Jack was literally threatened and called trash
And let's not forget that in this version Jack is gay.
what’s wrong with that? 💀 his sexuality doesn’t affect his character 🤣
@@tigrispanthera5496 It's a joke, bud.
@@danielbold6167 okay? doesn’t answer my question
@@tigrispanthera5496 Your question is invalid, that's why.
@@danielbold6167 questions can’t be invalid id!ot
So brave, so bold, my god what a masterpiece this is
Obligatory teary-eyed "WE MUST BE BETTER" monlogue
And the game of the year award goes to 😅
This video is getting better and better
In a real Druckman game Jack would have been trans, black and missing a limb or two.
Now that’s not funny…
@@DeutscherPatrick
Doch, ist es! Heul leise...
@@Ricardo-cl3vs Ich fall vom Stuhl
@@DeutscherPatrick
Schön für Dich. Ich bin an Deiner Lebensgeschichte allerdings nicht interessiert.
@@Ricardo-cl3vs wunderbar und gleichfalls
Y'all got a towel or anything?
So brilliant! my expectations were subverted. Revenge bad, Such a masterpiece!
if isayama directed it.
Jack killed jhon because he loved his own mother
and Dutch was the main character all along
Atleast isayama knows how to make a character like zeke likeable than that abbitch
@SheanWalsh Is it a "revenge baaaaaaaad" kind of ending?
@@mattmark94 No, it's even worse.
Both protagonists died pretty brutal deaths at the end of their respective games in the RDR series(well, Arthur only dies semi-brutally if you finish the story with low honor), yet you see almost no one complaining about their deaths since they make sense in the context of the story. Contrast this with TLOU2 where the main character is also killed brutally except this time the story literally goes nowhere. Also, in RDR2, some pretty beloved characters are abruptly killed just like in TLOU2, except these deaths feel more real and impactful. The sudden deaths in TLOU2 feel like plot contrivances and a lazy way to write characters out of the story so that the writing team doesn’t have to think about what to do with them when they make a third game.
nah man, if this was a neil story, they both would have been gay/trans, have a sex scene, and decide not to kill each other while mention other trendy virture signals to try and check off the diversity boxes and then complain that nobody liked the story
Give this man an oscar
🤣🤣🤣🤣 I’m dead !!!
red dead
I’m red
I’m redemption
I'm 2
R.I.P
People who consider TLOU 2 as a masterpiece have delusional brains and ability to fool their own sense of questioning and perception or they must be bland people who can't have their own opinion and blindly carry over the over-glorified reviews done by sold out game reviewers.
Revenge/Justice is the best thing ever invented by man. If someone killed someone I loved, I'd get revenge.
Noooooo!! Revenge is bad bro!! Just forgive the girl who killed your dad
So your saying that if someone killed your dad, you wouldn't want justice?
@@loganentertainment1814 I was joking about TLOU2
My bad, I didn't catch it. Sorry. XD
@@loganentertainment1814 lol
This is still a normal option, now Neil has rethought a lot and it is quite possible that everything would end up eating strawberries
My expectations have been subverted
i used to believe Micah was the biggest piece of trash in a game... then i saw Abby, my god in comparison Micah is like a Superhero, at least Micah OWNS his unlikeability and nastiness, Abby literally kills what you love horrendously, Micah even lets Arthur have his Honourable death in High Honour, HOW THE FUCK DRUCKMANN MANAGE TO MAKE A CHARACTER MORE DISGUSTING THAN MICAH? HE WAS DESIGNED TO BE DISGUSTING!
abby actually cared about people and only wanted to kill the person who killed her dad. micah used dutch and manipulated him for his own benefits, he didn’t have a sad backstory or any motives. He just wanted power and money, plus he killed arthur just cause 💀 at least abby had a reason 🙏 abby > that dead rat
Yeah. In a way Micah was a better written character with writers pulling all the right strings to make you despise Micah. But Abby is ironically the opposite with you being forced to like the character while the writers pulled all the wrong strings in order to achieve a goal that was futile.
@@randomserbianguy5677 name 3 micah themes 💀
That's what a sexist would say
@@tigrispanthera5496You do a profoundly bad job at justifying Abby.
You forgot the john marston playing a guitar flashback 😂
Kidding me 😂
I've struck gold.
Revenge is bad......mkay.
This is the ending JOHN MARSTON would have preferred if we’re gonna be honest.
What about the dog?!
Dutch: dammit jack, he killed your father
Always the doubting
10/10 "Masterpiece" - All critics
this isn't even real but it still upset me, good job.
should have made every name in the credits the same too
Now do one with Micah and it will really be made by Neil Druckmann
@@marcialdospuforini1197 yo mama
John shoots dutch instead of micah
Forgot to add a flashback while looking at his gun.
We have to make one with RDR2 and Red Dead Revolver.
The High Honor Ending
Stunning and brave
IGN
The narrative of TLOU2 isn’t revenge = bad.
The first third of the story is about vengeance and escalating violence, the second third is about perspective and the last third is about grief - Abby is learned to be chasing the answer of whether or not she thinks her father would have sacrificed her (something she never got an answer for as the moment with her father was interrupted), while Ellie is proving to herself that she would ultimately have forgiven Joel (and uses Abby as a proxy for that in their final confrontation)
It’s as if everyone has forgotten that The Last of Us is heavily inspired by The Road and this is precisely how Cormac McCarthy maps his narratives
Ellie lost at her quest for revenge and was defeated by Abby. There is no more vengeance beyond that point in the narrative and that’s why Ellie’s mental state is explored in the last third of the game instead before she then sets out one last time to find Abby.
I hate it when people oversimplify the plot. Yes, it's okay to not like the game, people have their own opinions, but don't actively leave things out that make it work and make it look incredibly barebones. I haven't played neither TLOU games (PC master race *sniff sniff*) but I wish I could.
Anything can look bad if you use the right language. RDR2 is just basically a bunch of cowboys going around killing people. Dark Souls is just some super hard game where you die over and over again. You just run around and kill demons in DOOM.
If the book of The Road is like the movie, then no wonder the movie was trash and TLOU2 is also trash.
@@themac7915 I like how you said anything could sound bad if you over simplified it but then you made rdr2 sound amazing
Tlou2 fans: yaaS! suCh p0WERFuL aNd diVurs eNdIng!
also jack marston is a female.. and we are supposed to believe she is straight.. her name is jack, and she dresses like a man, has a man's voice, and a beard, and no breasts.. but she is a straight woman in the script so there's nothing weird about it at all.. and when jack marston rides her boyfriend in the sex scene, it looks totally normal
IT BROKE NEW GROUND!!!
What the H happened to Druckman…..????
Did Queen Anita get in his ear????
Angry Joe had a pretty damn funny sketch during his review of the LOU 2.
Really loved the first game, really wish Troy Baker had kind of did a Mark Hamill…..
It was painful to watch him do damage control for them. Wonder if they paid him for that or if it was a favor for druckman
GOTY everybody! GOTY! Good fucking lord Naughty Dog...
Accurate
If the player was given the choice to execute or spare Ross, that is an idea that could work. If I remember correctly John did not want Jack to grow up as an outlaw. In the story Jack became an outlaw to kill Ross so Jack already made his choice. But if the player was put where Jack was at the point in his life where he could choose to be a scholar or an outlaw. Then the choice I mentioned earlier could work. Then the dynamic would be choose to follow your father wishes or deny your father wish to fulfill your own.
If jack did become a scholar, he could become a politician and find a way to incarcerate Ross for the rest of his life.
The story was void of choice, both games were about the cycles of revenge and the struggle of men against their destinies/fates. Wouldn't of had the same impact if you could've just walked away at the end I think.
@@TheMemeK God, I wish I can play RDR again. I understand what you're getting at. In the end RDR is a tragedy. So the original ending is very fitting.
I just realised that the matter of choosing to spare or kill is used in BO2.
Gameplay: Red Dead Redemption
TH-cam: is that Red Dead Redemption 2?
Where's the guitar??
this is a big game i love read dead tlou 2 is trash
I love this game, but I will be honest that I have struggled with Ellie's decision not to kill Abby at the end of the game. If she was going to make peace with Abby, it most likely would have been when she was at home with Dina: after Abby spared her yet again when she easily could have killed her. TWICE. Even Abby's friends want to kill Ellie, and Abby doesn't do it. The fact that Ellie is so consumed by her rage she abandons Dina and her home to travel to Los Angeles to destroy whoever is in her way is not something that can be undone after seeing Abby emaciated or even in seeing Abby carrying Lev the same way she probably imagines Joel carried her throughout the hospital.
It is, however, important that we consider the backdrop of which Ellie and Abby are placed in Santa Barbara. The second game plays upon the first game, where the story intensifies and a new kind of enemy needs to be brought into the game that is a representation of a deeper kind of evil: an evil that reaches far beyond the murderous hunters that Joel kills to protect Ellie and beyond the WLF and Seraphites that Ellie decimates in her quest for revenge. In the first game, that higher element of evil is represented by David, who is a trickster figure, offering himself to Ellie as a friend and will even pull clickers off of you and save you only for us to realize that he is not a friend: he is an enemy who couldn't be further from expressing the genuine fatherly emotion that Joel offers. Ellie is at the mercy of Joel and David at different parts of her journey in Part 1, and it is merely by change that Joel is a kind man who loves her like a daughter and isn't another incarnation of David. It is worth noting, however, that David and Joel are the same in one major way. David and Joel present themselves as honest and trustworthy figures from the beginning, but they both, in a very different way, betray her. David is a double for Joel in the sense that their relationships with Ellie begin with her relying on them and having a set of predetermined rules. Ellie wants to make a trade with David for medicine, and she wants to get from point A to point B with Joel. Neither of these figures, even though one is her father and one is her attempted rapist, live up to these promises and both betray, albeit in very different ways.
In the second game, the Rattlers take the form of David by raising the stakes of evil in the game. This is important to consider, because it is important for Ellie and Abby to be in the face of true evil and recognize that each woman, even if they are an opposing sides, is not a representation of pure evil, despite the fact that they have taken so much from each other. There are a number of subtle moments in Abby's story when we are witness to her strength of character: the first is when she dives into the water to potentially save Owen. She is petrified of heights, and in the first few moments of us playing as her she jumps into the water, almost with no hesitation, simply because her love might potentially be in danger. We as players have to face that that kind of good-natured person took a character from us that we grew to love from years.
Abby also climbs that ridiculous makeshift bridge with Lev in order to retrieve medicine for a stranger. Doubling with the moment where Ellie faces the bloater in the flashback sequence where the game throws a challenge at you that you cannot complete, Abby cannot make it across the bridge. It took me two times of playing the game to realize that Abby is so frightened she actually loses consciousness when she falls off the bridge. She is so petrified and facing a fear so deep that she loses consciousness, and we realize that the challenge of getting from point A to point B in a video game (something that is almost always possible since it's a video game with a beginning, middle, and end) is actually impossible.
whatever reason.
Somebody mentioned Homer in the comments, and it is central to Homer's poetry in the ILIAD to recognize the enemy as human. Whole books of the poem are dedicated to Hector, even though he is the enemy to the character we are supposed to be cheering on. Achilles does not treat Hector as a human for so much of the poem after Patroclus is murdered, but he does recognize the opposing side as human when he confronts Priam, Hector's father. Priam and Achilles aren't friends, they are very far from amicability, but they have the ability to look at each other as humans, and that is exactly what Ellie and Abby do after fighting each other one last time and after witnessing the purity of evil that the Rattlers present. They are not friends, but they can look at each other as human beings, and that is a monumental journey that many of the people playing this game fail to recognize when they see Abby's perspective: whether they genuinely like her or not.
Lastly, Ellie is also in deep need of forgiving someone. She is so tormented, which we do not realize until the final moments of the game, that the night before Joel was murdered she attempted to reconcile with him. That conversation was the beginning of a very different kind of journey what Ellie is used to, but it would have been a monumental journey for her to accept Joel again after he betrayed her deepest wishes. When Abby killed Joel, she lost that opportunity. She feels guilt for having treated her father like crap, and she can't make it up to him. All Ellie has left to do is forgive Abby because she can't forgive Joel anymore. She has lost that opportunity, but she needs to prove to herself that she can forgive someone who has taken something so meaningful from her.
TL;DR
I did really enjoy tlou2 but I do get how people don't like it since the story could've definitely been executed in a way better manner
I cannot stop laughing
This isn’t necessary coming from forgiveness, but maybe Jack knowing that John would want him to live a life free of bounties and gangs, so he prevents himself from starting a chain reaction that would inevitably leave him with the same fate as his father.
At least Rockstar didnt make Ross give his ID card. Jack had to look for him lol
10/10! - IGN
this comment section is gold
The dislikes are from Druckmann's alt accounts
Clickbait, it says bruce straley as a game director
?
LMFAOOOO this is a quality video right here
The problem isnt that ellie doesnt kill abby. The problem is that its stupid as hell.
Return of the jedi isnt a revenge story but it also involves the hero not killing the villain.
First thematically what the starwars saga 1-6 is about is destiny. Luke is at first the hotshot adventurer who wants to see more of the universe and is at his heart is a hero.
Then empire turns this upside down with that being the theme with luke hanging upside down and luke learns not only is being a jedi not what he thinks it is and he isnt set out to be the typical hot shot hero he is just as capable of being evil and he is not only reckless and a lot like his father but vader the villain is his father
In star wars destiny is fate and george lucas sees fate as many old tales use fate as a means of setting up doom. We see luke is more willing to do things vader has done but beleives he can save vaders soul. However he is only given the options of destroy vader, become him, or die
However luke wants to forge his own fate to save his fathers soul and as he stood over his father luke defied the destiny given to him and he refused the duel and this returns vader to the light and throwing the true villain of the skywalker saga down to a pit and we never saw palpatine again.
The difference comes from the reasoning.
Luke not only sees good in his father but he cant bring himself to end him.
What a charater does isnt with the knowlege they are in a story with themes they do things within their own reasoning.
Elie has gotten way to far and has done way to much and has gotten way to close and why would you stop last minute. She got this far why stop now. The charater based motive is a last second flash back that comes from nowhere.
Flashbacks usually happen when a charater sees a picture of a mommento of the past so that way they it feels like we are being taken back. Here we are just brought to joel talking about forgiveness.
so why would this relate to ellie trying to game end abby like you got this far but no random flash back only matters now at the end of the game and not when we started the game. She lost everything atleast get the one thing you might as well.
Plus the themes about nothing good comed from revenge works better when the protagonist realizes after losing everything achieving their goal doesnt lead to closure. In a well crafted story about forgiveness it wouldnt be an issue but here ellie is past that and she very much knew before the game began joel wouldnt want any of this so she quits because of a scene that would remind her she never got to patch things between her and joel would make her forgive somebody in completely different circumstances.
Man, that made me have a good laugh! Nice job man!
you should have included the 10 hour playthrough as ross where he gets humanized and excused for his actions to get you conflicted on who to support during this confrontation
LMAO
guess what ? GAME OF THE YEAR.
But in context, it will be fine coz didnt john want jack to go away in the outlaw life?
Yeah, this guy completely misunderstood the ending on RDR, it's basically that Gundam "Wow cool robot" meme.
He can't shoot the gun without the fingers to hold it lol
What is the name of the soundtrack at the end of this video
I mean to be fair, Arthur didnt want john to repeat the revenge cycle that he himself went through when those bandits killed his son and his mother for 10 or 12 dollars. And thats exactly what john did when he killed micah for revenge. Which in turn got him on the pinkertons radar and forced him to do their dirty work, which got him killed. He told abigail and jack to not repeat the cycle, to not look back, but guess what, jack does the opposite by killing edgar ross (and his family if you were me, i brutally murdered his family). Its an endless cycle of revenge and redemtion.
Which is what ellie in the last of us managed to stop by sparing abby. If joel knew that ellie was gonna go down this path, he would be ashamed. Because that is the path he went through for twenty years before he met ellie. And Arthur would not have wanted john to exact revenge on micah, because he knew what that wouldve lead to. An empty feeling, and consequence.
Im really curious to see what would happen in a red dead 3 where you play as jack during the great war or ellie in the last of us 3.
Look guys, this is just my take, my opinion if you disagree there is no need to express it. I know we all have our own opinions on red dead and last of us and that is perfectly fine.
Both stories set out in very different ways in exploring the concept of revenge and fate. Red Dead plays much more like a tragedy, where the characters whose lives have been torn apart by the patterns of revenge still can't help but indulge in the cycle of it all - even if it means their own demise (the only exception so far being Jack).
The last of us 2 attempts to portray a revenge story where the cycle is broken, but ultimately I think it executes it poorly. The character motivations are often muddled, and I think Ellie sparing Abbey only after brutally executing her entire gang and slaughtering masses of un-named soldiers along the way is a bit ham-fisted and contrary to what the end tries to say. I get where they were coming from though.
Overall I think, whilst two different takes on a vaguely similar tale, Red Dead 2's writing pulls off the 'revenge' story better than TLOU2's did.
People just getting angry that le epic Joel died however is lame as shit. He's not even a real dude.
@@TheMemeK We are not angry that Joel died it's how. Imagine if rdr2 was released first and John dies in the sequel in 2 hours by forced writing. Yeah people who were fans wouldn't be happy
Literally no one cares Joel died. It's the way he died. I like the message of "break the cycle of revenge" as much as the next guy, but Ellie killed her way through throng of people, she's already there, no going back, and guess what? She decided to leave it unfinished.
John went to find Micah who had broken his gang/family, but to go to Micah, he literally only had to go around before straight to the goal. The moment he chose to get revenge, he could step back at any time in that mission but he opted to not and finished his revenge.
Ellie, on the other hand, killed her way through with angst and when she faces Abby, she chickened out with that survivor guilt. Imagine John fighting his way to that rundown abode and when Micah came out, he's just "Welp, revenge is bad, better go back." Then, why the fuck did he kill his way through that snowy mountain? It's fucking meaningless. He didn't finish what he started.
Ellie started her revenge, it was a point of no going back. If Neil wanted to teach people about "revenge bad" then don't make her start a path of no going back. Just because you decides to not put the final nail in the coffin, that doesn't mean you got scoot off free.
Logically, why on earth Abby would let Ellie go after she killed all her friends? Revenge is a poison that can served hot or cold but you have to finish it, else someone else would re-serve it to you.
It's just so pathetic. Joel killed Abby's father to protect Ellie, Abby killed Joel for killing her father, and Ellie did no shit back. Good job on the "revenge bad" moral of story. It did shit.
I still wonder just how naive and romantic people could be to see the "good" in the plot. As a writer, it burst my mind to pieces at all the illogical choices of the story.
@@rachelciel3330 Yeah, totally agree with you. I do get it the end, but again, I would be able to forgive Abby if she said something nice to Ellie and stop bitching out everything about her. You know, what the hell Abby would expect? Like everyone hates Joel because he "kIlLEd A dOCtor"? Because he saved someones life? Abby did nothing but being a selfish b1tch everytime in the game, the fun fact that she is just like it or even worse that she claimed Joel to be. So that's why she is a unlikeable character, because she was force to be a likeable character, but it keeps thinking that she is the right one she spares Ellie's life and etc. I would say f* that, you still brutally killed Joel, do you think nobody was attached to Joel before? Scr3w you Abby.
@@rachelciel3330 I write myself, and all the illogical inconsistencies were just shit. Scenes jumped perspectives far too often. The first game slowly developed two characters, giving them sole focus aside from some rather minor side characters. It allowed you to connect with them, and not have shit jump around on you every twenty minutes. The most baffling thing for me was how they decided to develop Abby's friends only AFTER Ellie already killed them, so it was much less suspenseful and had much less emotional impact. Personally speaking, in a game, it is just more satisfying to defeat the opponent anyways, particularly the final one.
10/10 game of the year
All the women would be butch if Druckmann made RDR 1 & 2.
Also Jack has a gay relationship with a mexican guy because it's vital to the plot I guess.
This is so dumb lol.. like people literally cannot comprehend the ending of TLOU 2 up until this day.
The ending isn't just Ellie "forgiving" Abby and not killing her, it's also her saving her and Lev's life from the Rattlers. It's an ironic ending completely in line with the original where Joel dooms humanity, the opposite of what he set out to achieve at the beginning. Similarly, Part 2 ends with Ellie saving the life of the one she set out to extinguish.
Why? Because Abby has repeatedly shown growth in her journey and Ellie is technically only alive because Abby spared her life.
Now an ironic ending isn't inherently satisfying. But it is a satisfying ending because what it means for Ellie's character. She goes from a revenge seeking monster to a life saving hero even though it wasn't her ambition at the beginning. And sets her on a path of redemption going into Part 3 which will conclude her story.
Red dead does it better
Cuckmann totally mindfucked you. Anyone who thinks the story in tlous2 is good is a complete idiot and doesn't know what good writing is.
there is no cure boy
@@adike5 Joel gets his head caved in boy
@@skennedy1893 All of you TLOU2 fanboys keep flaming Joel like this because your father left you when you were 6. Get over it.
disgusting. well done
What's the credits music
th-cam.com/video/XtDXp-E38x4/w-d-xo.html
@@TheMemeK thank you for the information mister
thank you for making this video mister. totally agree with you, but somehow people like neil are working in industry to ruin the story department.
10/10 IGN
Here's hoping Neil learned from his mistakes
It's a mental disease not a mistake.
Never. Hes lost it, he'll fucking do it again
Not a powerful muscular woman as final boss, dislike
hahahahahahaha the last of us 2 it's the most disappointing game of the entire generation!!!!
Haha good one
It's make no sense, exactly like The Last of Us 2...
Poetic youtube
Holy shit this was hilarious