Back Pain + Lifting (Herniated & Bulging Disc Recovery)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ย. 2019
- A disc bulge is NOT the end of the world. You can often return and get back to lifting heavy without any pain. However, you MUST understand how to stabilize your spine.
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When the spine is compressed under load (like when lifting), a healthy disc helps distribute that load evenly across the entire vertebral bone. When a disc bulge occurs, load is no longer evenly distrusted but is instead shifted to the posterior aspects of the spine (the facet joints).
While the pain from a disc bulge may eventually “burn out” in a few weeks or months, the mechanics of how the spine is instantly changed. The way in which the spine carries load from there on is affected at that particular segment and forces are now shifted to the facet joints. Overtime this overload of the facet joint could lead to arthritis and the development of pain.
So if you want to continue to lift with a history of a bulging disc, you must learn to stabilize your spine. This starts with the McGill Big 3 core exercise program. Check it out here: • The 3 Best Core Exerci...
To continue your progression of core stability work on your way back to high level performance training, check out this free blog: squatuniversity.com/2018/11/0...
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Music credits
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Special thank you to Evan Pierson Productions for his help in making this video!
The #SquatUclub is now on TH-cam! As soon as I upload a new video, "like" it and comment with the hashtag #SquatUclub ASAP. I'll pick amongst those who do so within 1 hour of the video going live and pick one winner to start working on whatever you need help with (squat technique, an achy hip, help with back pain during deadlifts, etc). You must be SUBSCRIBED to my TH-cam channel for a chance to win. Turning on notifications by clicking the little bell next to the SUBSCRIBE button on my channel will make sure you can be first in line to win every time!
I’ll reply under the winners comment - so make sure you keep up on your notifications!
Do you have a disc buldge?
Likely yes, I've had a few back injuries in my lifetime. However, I've never had an MRI on my lower back to investigate.
This videos winner is: Baruch Rosenstark
Please can you tell me if I should treat a mid back bulging disc the same way by doing the McGill exercises? If not, please do a video on how to treat a mid back bulging disc. I've tried doing McGill but the glute bridge exercise causes pain so I quit doing it
My MRI shows two discs with "flat protrusion" - is that the same as a bulging disc? I have low back pain which radiates down my leg and nobody knows why. It's just very little normally but get's painful after lifting. Can I still apply the gist of this video, which is doing core stability training as you show in th-cam.com/video/2_e4I-brfqs/w-d-xo.html ?
After 30 years of 'back issues' that's the very best explanation and demonstration I've ever heard. Really appreciate it. This is my first time on your channel so gonna dive in now and see what else I can learn.
howd it go paul
He is the best
Especially for us average Joe’s
Had a building disc 10 years ago at age 30. Just set PRs this week at 40. #squatuclub
That's so great to hear you're doing so well! Keep up the great work!
I’ve got a buldging disk and I’m only 21 it sucks and I can’t even get a job
Shane Edwards ive been there many of times. I’d recommend purchasing the supple leopard by kelly starett life saving book as well as buying his video series on low back pain at his website the ready state
adramp33 how did u recoverd when u had?? How long it took?
What are PR’s? Getting over herniated disc and am afraid to go back to the gym.
Just wow! I absolutely wish more Physical Therapists would explain the disc bulge in this fashion. I'm a lifelong athlete recovering from an auto accident. I've seen several PTs and they never address me as an athlete and my specific needs nor do they explain the issue as you do. Thank you!
Aron can u create on how to execute exercises with back pain and especially bulging disc means discuss how one can workout with those pain
I'll see what I can put together! Thanks for the suggestion.
@@SquatUniversity ....please do
Please do that
@@SquatUniversity pls do that
@@SquatUniversity is it possible to come back from an injury and deadlift heavy again pain free? That’s the boat I’m currently in trying to get back to where I was pain free
These micro movements are the “key” to understanding chronic low back pain in many people. I have seen many failures when only using traction unless this micro movement is addressed. Great video and nice positive message.
Hats off Dr. you are the only one to cover this topic the proper way.
Couldn't tell you how grateful I am for this
This is such valuable information. Thank you, sir, for your willingness to share.
YOU HAVE THE BEST VIDEOS!! Thank you so much!
Thank you so much. This video is going to save my back. That means so much.
This is a great video mate, great presentation and very informational!
I just wanted to extend a huge thank you man. I really needed to hear that around 30% of 30 y.o. have some sort of disc bulges and that they heal. Starting PT tomorrow and I will keep an eye out for stabilizing movements
Great video, I am currently dealing with this and I had recently that I needed to improve my bracing, everything makes sense now
Loved this video. Love this channel. Absolutely a must follow channel for anyone who lifts weights
Thank you!
Dr. Aaron I have been lifting for decades and crossfitting for almost 7 years and this message speaks directly to me! I have delt with the bulge/pinched nerve and also have the facets joint problem! I have never heard this spoken so accurate and clear and you have given me hope! Thank you for the video and hope to see more soon or even better if you could work with me on rehab 💪🏽💪🏽 #SquatUclub
You're so welcome Don! I really appreciate your comment - I'm glad you're enjoying the content so much!
Wow, someone who does Crossfit got hurt. No surprise there.
Don, with the injury have you decided to continue doing crossfit and compound lifts like deadlift and back squats? I am considering taking them out and switching them for other exercises. For example, hack squat instead of back squat.
Thanks for giving me hope.
That was amazingly informative....
This is encouraging. Thank you.
Thank you so much Doc! I have been following the McGill method for a while now due to a back injury in April 2020. I have been creating the stiffness required for lifting again. Seems to be a very slow process for me. I tried lifting very light again this week but experienced a tight low back and nerve pain in my legs the following day. The explanation on the injury cascade is spot on. I have been struggling with not lifting and got impatient. Now I have the knowledge as to why I had the pain... insufficient stiffness around the injured joint. I will continue with the rehab process and return to lifting when my body is ready. Thanks again.
Couldn't have summed up my situation any closer lol
What was your problem exact? Bulged disc or herniated discs? And what treatments did you do ? Please share what helped you. I have herniated discs and will start tomorow with a chriropractic and its too expensive😭
@@elimancilla How are you now Eli ?
@@AdityaGupta-xq3kr hellooo there. Km now sooo much better if not completly healed thank god🙏🏽 i thought i was never going to be normal again but i feel good now. I basically just fasted for 18hrs. And ate clean. I walked a lot. I got sunlight. And i never stoped moving. I did movements and stretches carefully and what i found helpul i stick to those. The best excercices ypu could do are pranks for the core.
@@elimancilla Hey Eli! Were you fasting everyday for 18 hrs?
Very good explanation but I was left wanting something more, it seems like it was a great set up for a bit of practical advice
#squatuclub
Thanks for the comment, I'll see what I can do next time to go a little more in depth for you on the practical side of things.
@@SquatUniversity I wanted you to show how to lift correctly!
@@SquatUniversity exercises on how to strengthen lumbar disc stablitity and prevent further building or exacerbating of prior injury would be awesome!
As always a great video, this has helped as I’m in early stages of recovery from L4-L5 disc bulge, thank you
Hello I’m also in early stages of disc bulge recovery, how can I contact you I have some questions
@@imfren did u recover ?? any info
Any of you have sciatica pain?
@@kailashlimbu7046yes I’m doing way better than before, going to the gym again
Awesome explanation!
Great timing. Thanks
You're welcome!
Your videos have been very helpful for my disc bulge thank you
Hi this is very knowledgeable information that is given by squat club. Left me wanting more exercises to follow by video.
Thank you 👍👍👍
I am finally feeling better after a year of recovery after squat back injury.
I am happy with lighter goblet squats and McGill Big 3 and other easy exercises. I don't even have the courage to think to lift heavy again. It is just not worth the risk for recreational lifter. I will stay at 30% and that is it
Golden content
Thanks for sharing this video. ❤️
Great content! Most people will end up with a disc bulge at one point or another in their lives. Some will present with symptoms while others won’t . I feel it is vital to keep the core tight during hinging and squatting movement patterns regardless if there is a history of a disc bulge or not.
The core is everything
Thank you brother.
Wow! I’ve had 2 MRIs and seen many chiropractors/ orthopedics and not one explained what was happening to my lower back. Thank you!!
Great video Aaron, just wanted to run this by you. 2 days ago I worked up to a decent high bar back squat single @9.5RPE. I made this lift and have every confidence that I could hit it, however after a really good descent and reversal, I felt my a tightening sensation, like a rope being pulled taut in my right lower back region, right at my sticking point. I finished the lift. I've felt a similar thing last year, however not from a single rep, and did a really nice pull pull stretch while in the 90/90 position. This really helped me in the past and stopped the spasm from continuing. I checked the video of my squat and it seemed that in my desire to bring my hips under the bar to maximize my quad drive out of the hole, my pelvis tucked into posterior pelvic tilt. It's a barely noticeable tuck but I reckon that some lower back stabilizer just went taut as a defense mechanism. So getting to the point, I've always braced and feel really good about my technique, 360 degree, creating a tonne of stiffness in the process but I've never really focused on keeping my low back in extension. Do you think one should actively provide an extension force in the low back to prevent the natural rounding that may happen as the hips are brought back under the bar in the ascent of the squat. How do you feel about active extension of the low back, generally as it applies to strength training? I've heard Mike Israetel commenting on extension ( in the squat) being inherently safer but then I'm worried that in my focus on slight/active extension, I'll lose some ab/anterior tension. Have you come across this pelvis tucking under high loads as one brings their hips under the bar? Hope this finds you well.
Great video , Would love to hear more on recommended rehab , I have nerve pain that won't go away
Very good information
Very good Information allways, greets from germany and thanks
Some of the best videos I’ve seen on this topic.
you are a godsend
Exactly what I'm going through currently. Tanks for the detailled explanation #SquatUclub
Excelente video.
Thank YOU!
Would love to hear your top few core bracing exercises. Aka drills to teach people how to brace their core or even a few favorite exercise to improve upon spine stiffness. Thanks for all you do! Love your information!!!
Plank. Side plank. Bird dog. Paloff press.
@@WillWinterss I find that planks etc don't really teach you to brace while hip hinging, so I would just do squats and deadlifts with very progressive load starting from zero (not even a barbell).
@@ExecutionSommaire do you have herniated disc as well?
@@AdityaGupta-xq3kr No idea, I just have days with pain in the lower back. Could be some muscle imbalance/weakness. I tend to have anterior pelvic tilt, and my lower back is weakened by years of office job.
I came here about the back...then the music in the background had me vibing😎✊🔥had to look it up
@Gypsy Malonemary jane is not a drug. 2. It you don't feel the music playing yo ass aint got no rhythm or soul.
Great vid 🙏🔥
THANK YOU
Thanks for the feedback. I was afraid to not be able anymore to lift
i wait this video, thank u
You're welcome!
Now, we need a stability exercise program for those of us with disc problems, back surgery etc that would be fantastic! Thanks!
You're welcome - have you checked out my last video on the McGill Big 3?
Do you got it ? Where can I find it?
Wonderful content, thanks Dr! Is it safe to perform body weight squats for those with bulging disc? Will be great if you could put up a tutorial how to perform them. Thanks
We are glad to help professionals connect their knowledge to others through better spine modeling. Thank you for using our #3dmodels for #patienteducation
Do the discs in your models compress and shear with the same Force as an actual human disc ?
@@ryantmorgan91 These are models, but the general movements are, yes. You can see Dr McGill reference them as biofiidelic in many videos.
Thank u so much
You're welcome!
Thank you. Great video! What are your thoughts on running exercises in between deadlifts or squats?
haven’t lifted in 8 months and have to sit out of my senior season of football, hope this helps
Pleaseee do a video on how to fix bulging discs in the thoracic spine area
Please do a video on how to deal with a mid back bulging disc
Great explanation, I just seriously reaggravated an L5 issue yesterday and back to ice, anti-inflammatories and chiropractor for me. It would be great to see how to rehab this issue. Also, I dig the flags hanging, but the field (the starts) should be on the left side as you look at it.
Hi Aaron, thank you so much for the explanation. Your channel is the most helpful among others. Beside squatting, and weight lifting I have found that I have pain in the lower back and doing a side bend to the right. Can you advise on how I should go about it? Thanks 🙏
Simply Amazing! 🙏 Having watched over a thousand + videos regarding herniated disc and recovery, never did I learn that even if your disc recovers, your facet joints might take the brunt of your most movments and can develop their own problems.
Would the stressed ligaments/facets then become very tender to touch in comparison to rest healthy ones ?
Can this problem appear on a MRI?
#SquatUclub
if you have stenosis from a herniated disc (what I have) - absolutely do not do squats. Stenosis is serious. Do your PT exercises to fix your core. Don't think for a second that simply doing squats or crunches will fix your core. There are muscles that need specific weird exercises to get worked.
Amen
#SquatUclub thanks Dr. Aaron.
Herniated my back Saturday. This give me hope.
this specific information isn't talked about enough
Thanks a lot for your videos! I find them very educative. I have a herniated L4-L5 disc (disc extrusion) and recoverenig for over 5 months. Now I’m doing stability exercises and deadlifts, and feeling much better. I would appriciate some advices about doing lifting with herniated disc.
#SquatUClub
Brother what u had done to recover from this L4,L5 disc plz guide I have same problem but not able to recover from lst 10 months
@@anuraggujrati6475 how are you doing now Anurag? Hope you were able to heal your discs? Im going thru the same situation its horrible i cant walk sit or bent or stand without deep pain.
Hey, do you still have pain today?
Any news ?
Recovering since 1 year and still I. Pain
This video I still come back to. I have a bad L5-S1 disc herniation I got years ago. I’ve been doing very well and back in the gym however, I notice when I stop my core stability exercises, the pain starts creeping back. At first I thought it was joint pain from maybe too much extension on accident in some movements when I’m really trying to prevent my back from rounding (rounded back under loaded squat caused herniation in the first place) but it sounds like I still need to work on my core stability daily in my training indefinitely to make sure this doesn’t come back. I suppose then I could be feeling isolated faucet joint pain? 🤔 mobilization of my lower back doesn’t seem to help it so this video seems spot on about emphasis on stability completely
What are you favorite core exercises?
Yes everyone watching has the problem what’s the solution??
Vid we need
That was a great explanation of the problem. I am unfortunately in the this category, multiple disc injuries have now lead me to have facet joint problems.
I was hoping to see some actual reccomendations for actual exercises once this occurs. I don't feel like i can or should squat at all now and get conflicting advice from different physios. Would you be able to reccomend any exercises for someone in my position?
Core and glute work
It's hard to rehab your spine correctly if you don't know the full extent of the damage to the structures of your spine - and this is often difficult to say for sure even using MRI.
Also if the problem has a neuropathic pain component then no amount of rehab will get you relatively pain free and lifting again.
Great introduction to micro-movement/instability. I have lumbar disc issues and find both back squat and heavy deadlifts problematic, even though I can stabilise well. I work around the problem with variations: goblet/front/box squats; Romanian deadlifts etc. thoughts?
Those are good usually if done correctly! Glad you liked this video!
Hi , i have a plan to rehab the back , is like this : Bulgarian squats>Globet squats>Front squats>Back squats and for deadlifts: Trap bar on blocks>Trap bar from the floor>Sumo on blocks>Sumo on the floor>Normal deadlift on blocks>Normal deadlifts from the floor .That is how Am Training rehabed his bulging disc two times!
That and McGill Big 3 + Spine higiene daily (delete the pain triggers that dont let desensitízing the spine until you have it with 0 pain) .I have been doing core work and spine higiene for 2 months (2 months without sitting amd lifting heavy) noe i can sit without problem and im progresivelly lifting more weight per week
@@SuperPulseadasArmwrestling whats the spine hygiene???? Please explain
I had an injury last year, I had been doing the Mcgill big 3, and I had fully recovered from the injury or so I thought. Today I did RDLs with perfect form - bracing the core and everything dr. aaron suggested. But after the lift I was keeping the empty bar back and felt the “shock” and I told to myself REALLLYY!!??? an empty bar😭😭. I am so scared to overload any of the deadlifts anymore, if this could happen after the lift I dont even want to do it anymore.
Did 180kgs deadlift after a disc herniation and unbearable pain for 3 years. Now starting with squats slowly. Goal is to hit 140kgs but will be super patient with sex form
Lair
Y do u lie dudee
This is awesome. #SquatUclub #RebuildingMilo
Sir please make a video on Stretching and rehab exercise for Disc herniation related injury ?
This video is amazing. I had disc bulge in 2019, c5 c6. Never wish such pain upon anyone. Now in early August 2023 i got hurt again at the same spot and it frikkin killed me lol. It took me about three weeks to heal from this agony.
I believe barbell shrugs front or behind the neck tend to hurt my c5 c6. I’ll never ever do barbell shrugs again. Dumbbells only. Can heavy dumbbell shrugs with proper form help me avoid it from coming back?
I'm 18 and I was doing a bunch of unweighted explosive deep squats and I think I had my back arched a little, kinda like the girls on instagram that want to make their butt look better, and I felt this piercing pain that was pretty sudden, I did a couple more squats and then suddenly I found it hard to move my back in any direction; hard to get on the ground, put on socks, or move at all for the first couple of days. Now its just a nagging pain 5 days later. It hurts when I, again, try to put socks on, but other than that it just feels like there's something being pinched in between 2 bones.
@Henry Lawsky did u make a recovery ? I was benching heavy yesterday and arched too much and felt a little niggle in my lower back and then squatted heavy with no pain but a few hours later I could barely move and it’s not much better the next day
Its my birthday and I missed the window again :'(
#SquatUClub
Hey Aaron great video!
Very informative!
Are the reebok nanos an ideal shoe for deadlifts? Or are they elevated?
Thank you! And it depends on the person. I think most powerlifters will use a more flat sole shoe where as weightlifters who are doing deadlifts are doing them for the purpose of strengthening the clean and snatch pull (so they'll usually use their weightlifting shoes). So I'd say for most who aren't looking for sport specific work, a flatter sole shoe works great. Reebok nanos are a fairly flat shoe (they're maybe 3-4mm drop I believe).
Hey love your videos man I would really appreciate it if you did a video purely explaining the rehab portion of a disc bulge , I currently have one and it has not healed after a year what am I doing wrong?
Did you continue lifting weights after the injury ?
Finally I would be able to enjoy DOMs from squatting again.
Thankyou for explaining and showing us the right way to excercise. Can you please tell me can I lift weights after healing from cervical spine bulging that's c5 c6 that's around my neck? And how much weights I should lift once I hit the gym. Please advise.
Its funny when someone tells me to do something that im already doing lol your latest video on the mcgills 3 was so good ive been doing it incorrectly for awhile
I'm glad that last video could be helpful!
Sir ,I've had and recovered from a disc buldge in 2017. I got too a chiropractor and my chiro puts me on spinal traction and my lumbar stiffness goes away for 2 or 3 days then keeps coming back. I honestly don't know what else to do as i think it's the end of the world for me . Please help
I have 2 years disk buldge or hernia, because when I bent forward, i feel pain shooting and shocks in my feet. I hope it still goes away... I have a strong core and always been flexible
You are really a life saver Dr.Aron!! Can you maker a video about 'disc protrusion'? Several doctor(of the hospital)told me that my L4-L5 dics protrusion is much worse than a disc bulge, and I should not lift heavy weight or even golfling for the rest of life... and that is really the end of my world... Is there any chance I can recovery to a level that allow me to workout again?
How are you doing lloyd? Were you able to heal?? Im in severe pain with my back and i have herniated disc
@@elimancillaI'm getting better! I highly recommend this book Hope you get well soon!!
Dr Aron could you please make a video about slap lesion please
I have been dealing with back pain for a few weeks now. I first thought it was due to overextention/lumbarlordosis and i thoutht i should engage my core more. With the purpose of contracting my abdominal muscles better i think i created so called “butt wink” and after a few days of leg training my pain was much worse. Now i understand what the problem was.. I am just having problem to understand how to stiffen my core while not rotating my pelvis to front. It will take some practice
I hoped this would also work for SIJ disfunction but somehow the SIJ still shifts enough to create pain especially if hitting end of range as just below parallel.
been fighting pain due to bulging disc on my lower back, specifically on the left leg since December 2019. But been working out and rehabing since January and the process is slow and painful. I've seen some relief and some improvements, but there are days where the pain flares up, maybe even weeks, but continuing to grind it. Overall goal for 2020 is to be functionally healthy and have mobility/flexibility. Not focusing on gaining muscle or losing weight necessarily but just getting back to being healthy again.
AlfredM what are u doing for that?? Exercise?? Hab u been to physio therapist ?
@@sabinabastola8371 how about you
Dynamic disk design
I wish he would do a book with the kneesovertoesguy
Does the pain go away? I believe I herniated my disc 2 days ago. Tomorrow I'll be seeing a doctor for it.
#SquatUclub thank you a lot for the info!
You're welcome!
You are smart and I admire this great performance but how can I achieve stability
Can I do this while still recovery from disc bulge?
I only have pain in my left side lowerback. Nobody knows what to do. I hope this Will work
Hi I have a question:
The first time I had disc pain was about 8 years ago, back then the doctors didn't do any tests and told me that it was most likely a torn muscle.
I rested for about 2 months and started gradually lifting weights and doing sports again.
It happened another time about 3 years ago and the doctors would have told me the same had I not insisted on a CT scan which showed a (minor) herniation between l4 and l5. But then again I was only ordered to rest and had some underwhelming ''physiotherapy''.
Now I am having disc problems again so my Question is:
How important is the process of Rehab that you have mentioned? And how do you exactly go about Rehab? I am sorry to say that my doctors are not really interested in properly treating that problem (maybe because they encounter it way too often) and just tell me to ditch Jogging and weightlifting altogether...
Without rehab you will end up in chronic pain.
#SquatUclub Is there more info on how to rehab a disc bulge? Currently suffering from this + bad knots in my right glute
Same
It's really going to depend on the person as there's no one size fits all to rehab. I always recommend working with a professional like a physical therapist to rehab that injury. But here's a simple screening process you can go through to start the process: squatuniversity.com/2018/04/28/how-to-screen-your-low-back-pain/
How long can it take for these disc injuries to heal themselves? I’ve had a disc injury for almost 5 years now. It’s completely gone out on me twice to where I can’t even walk for a day or two, but most of the time it’s pretty manageable as long as I don’t lift anything too heavy in a bent over position
Hey, I got a bad disc on l5-s1 due to some lower spine rectification and I don't have pain during squats or deadlifts. The pain comes on the next day after a deadlift session, no irradiation to legs... I feel like it's related to posterior chain muscles tightness, the pain usually goes away after warmup. Any ideas?
Love the channel and the external rotation torque set up for the squat has really improved my form here. Ty!
Be sure to check out this blog for a screening method to help uncover the why behind your issues: squatuniversity.com/2018/04/28/how-to-screen-your-low-back-pain/
@@SquatUniversity hey, I've just finished the test!
T1, rating pain 0-10, 4 on the way down. It was worse much worse tuesday (i did some deadlifts monday) and did some squats and hipthrust yesterday. Squats seems to fix the problem 😂.
T2, very mild compression pain, I'd say it's a 1, pain goes up when rounding the back to 5 or 6.
T3, no pain
T4, no pain
Unibridge, mild burn on spinal erectors or transverse abs, left side only. Same result on double bridge.
Hip rotation, left side feels way tighter on the side of the thigh. Didn't notice travel differences.
T mobility, OK, a 2 pain @ 45° to the left.
By the test I have a flexion problem. What intrigues me is that I don't have pain deadlifting, only on the next day. Few weeks ago I was doing only squats, good mornings and hipthrusts, felt great, no pain whatsoever. When I go back to deadlifting, pain shows up...
I'll take more time off deadlifts this time, 1 or 2 months after the pain go away and then try again.
Thanks for the tips doc, great stuff you got going here!
@@ewertsp how is your back?
@@mohamedgabal6333 hey, my back is better than ever. I changed my form to starting strength, got a belt from dominion, lifting shoe and still on NLP. I wish my deadlift could go up as fast as my back heals lols...
Thanks a lot, man , it's actual topic for me. Could you tell please, are these advices actual for herniated disc?
Thanks in advance
I'll see what I can put together!
Ahhhh-haaaaa... I keep getting a bulge in one of my lower lumbar discs, which takes me out of training for weeks due to the pain. Now not don't squat or deadlift anything over 95 lbs.. Too spooked. Will try your rehab suggestions though, thanks!
If you are getting it again and again then go for surgery m only surgery can give it a permanent solution.
@@ZeeshanAhmed-os1lm Are you sure about that ? (I really dont know about bulging and herniated surgery,but why would you reccomend it ?)
Seems like back injuries are inevitable (or there is a high probability of one occurring) in the long run in this game. With all of the forces of the weights, just being a little bit off with bracing, or a little bit off with the spine being in neutral and you are on your way to spinal problems as the years and decades go by. Point is, most people don't have picture perfect form 100 percent of the time, each workout, each rep, year after year after year....