So you guys are going to host a dice tower tournament now, right? I’d love that. In no particular order five tournament games: 1: Can’t Stop - best of three or even five. I’m with you Mike! 2: blitzkrieg! WWII in 20 minutes 3: War Chest 4: Dice Throne 5: Century: Spice Road. With Tom on this!
2 things I really like about this top 10: you guys go much more in depth on how the games work and what they are than usual, 2 is interesting how games can play differently when like at through this lens.
Interesting picks lol. I think I would have included Klask, Baseball Highlights, and Challengers too. Honestly, 2 player games I think are far best for tournaments.
Fearsome floors has been mentioned a couple of times now in recent videos. I would be interested to see a catchupalooza on this as I don't know much about it and it sounds like a fun playthrough to watch
I haven't finished the video (just got to Mike's 7 - Root) but regarding the factions and maps: I follow some Civ 6 channels which do tournaments and the way they handle these two issues is 1 - blacklist civs that no one can use, then they choose from what remains and 2 - map vetoes for the players where they call for a vote to reroll the map. This is less time consuming in a computer game than a board game but I could see that be an option depending on the game.
Cooperative game. Show up with 3 friends. Clock starts and whichever team finishes the most missions in (set time limit) wins. If multiple teams tie. They move on, starting from where they left off for another hour. Keep going until 1 team standing.... The Crew
How has this never been a top 10 list till now My 10 not already in WSBG 1) Five Tribes 2) Galaxy Trucker 3) 7 Wonders Duel 4) Space Base 5) Lewis and Clark 6) ZhanGuo 7) Yokohama 8) Marco Polo (except bid for powers) 9) Pursuit of Happiness (need a really good rules lawyer/ ref for this one. Tons of ways to mess up the rules) 10) CIA Cold War 2 player
Base, vanilla-ass Carcassonne. Simple rules, but the random element, combined with knowing/memorizing which tiles are in the bag and choosing where to place one's meeples make this a perfect tournament game.
It really is. There is a fierce competitive scene online and in-real-life tournaments, including a world tournament in Essen. I hoped someone would mention it.
I am surprised nobody mentioned Indines. That game series was made for fighting tournaments. You do need everything twice though, otherwise a player gets locked out of their character.
I run a Club and just arranged a Night At The Races tournament...3 games- Formula D, Camel Up and Long Shot: The Dice Game.....cars, camels n horses, what's not to love and enjoy about that??!!😂😂
I was in a WSBG qualifier for Ark Nova and a guy played the "side entrance" the first turn. The game was over at that point because when playing the basic map he had access to a second association worker 2-3 rounds ahead of everyone else. Unfortunately Ark Nova is broken for that reason on the basic maps. I didn't have much fun that game because it didn't matter how well anyone played, it was the one guy's game to lose.
dang yeah they should play the other maps... but idk how they would decide who gets which map. maybe everyone vetos 1 map and then picks out of the remaining reverse turn order?
Root works in a tournament setting with Avanced Setup. I play in the Winter Tournament and they also give Corvids 1 of each plot extra and use Despot Infamy with Vagabond which gives them one victory point per battle with a hostile faction in which they removed one piece instead of 1 point per piece.
I’ve seen Rahdo discuss the tournament rules he heard about from Schmidt Spiele but was there anything official that was posted? I’d love to hear about it if so.
I think Sea Salt & Paper would be a great tournament game! I’m surprised Mike or Zee didn’t have it on their lists. Also, Tiny Towns is awesome, but a bad choice for #1 😅
Many games with asymmetrical don't need banned factions. The easiest way WSBG can mitigate this is by adding a bidding end game victory points for factions and seat positions.
Some interesting ones: Hooky or The Search for Planet X for a pure deduction game. Glen More II - keep adding new chronicles as you advance rounds. Bullet ❤ if there were referees to make sure nobody inadvertently cheated Las Vegas Royale - seems too obvious War Chest and Boop and Klask for more obvious 2 player games Stockpile for a quick speculation game.
Don't set up the tournament to be elimination right off the bat. Guarantee each player a couple games and then use the results of the first couple rounds to seed the finals. You need games that people don't mind playing back-to-back a few times. I played in a SmallWorld tournament one time and by the third game I just wanted to be done cause I was tired of playing the same game.
Some friends and I are going to do a trickshot tournament. You play trickshot (hockey) and if you lose that game you move to the ‘loser’ bracket… which is 18holes(golf)
Yeah, I love Orléans, but the set-up and take-down makes this one a difficult idea for a room full of a hundred people playing the same game, where each round thirty minutes is spent on maintenance. I mean, pretty much any game could be good for tournaments. Like, I think Twilight Struggle would be awesome too, but that also has a huge component factor. Maybe Concordia would be better, since it's basically just the map part of Orléans.
Tiny Towns is a funny game I find. I really like the game, but I find it never actually gets to the table, and no-one ever asks to play it. One weird aspect to some games is they are much better with their expansions which tournaments don't tend to use. The most obvious example is Ticket to Ride, the game is so much better with 1910 expansion, yet I never see tournaments actually play that way, and the base game feels bad once you've played 1910. Heat: Pedal to the Medal has a bit of this. I've not seen it in a tournament setting yet, but I'd hope any tournament for it uses the garage module, as without it you're losing half the game imo. At least in this case, the module is actually in the base box, I have my doubts tournaments will actually play that way though. I like Downforce, there is one frustrating aspect to it though. That I often see other players just gift the game to someone. Whereby they will be on the leader at the 1st betting line and help them win the race. Unless that player overbid for their car, you are just gifting that player the victory doing this, yet it's something I've frequently seen. When I teach the game in a private setting I actively point out in the teach that if you do this you are just gifting the game to that player, but you can't really do that in a tournament setting without coming across a dick. Also like above Downforce's expansion maps are so much better than the base maps.
It doesn't have a runaway leader problem if people are experienced and know what they're doing. Ie. Don't bet on the leader and help them win. Generally if players know what they're doing the leader will get ganged up upon. The biggest problems Downforce has in a tournament setting is a) someone can totally dump the game to someone else, even unintentionally just by being inexperienced at the game and b) the expansion maps are so much better than the bland base maps and are unlikely to be used.
@@ozza000 That's indeed a gigantic issue. You can't expect all players to be experienced, there will always be that one guy/gal to mess things up. And there's also the ethical dilemmas of kingmaking, which this game is a treasure trove of. No, this game is definitely not tournament worthy, that's a big no no there Mr Zee !
@@ozza000 it depends on the track as well. The base tracks have so many one lane sections that it's way too easy to sit on them if you are out of the gate early. The expansion tracks are much better at giving more opportunities to pass.
I want to push back against Z's stance on imbalance in abilities in a game. He stated that he liked it in Yamatai because you can acquire those abilities in the game, making it fair. I would argue that it is better to have that imbalance with starting factions that are known and can be bid on (similar to how scythe tournaments work) than left to random chance of when they show up to be acquired during the course of the game.
Magic Maze tournament idea: isolate the players and have them interact with a digital board. I realize it defeats a bit the idea of a board game tournament.
Ok, Hadara.. Only problem I have with this is that yellow always wins. Winning with yellow is completely dependant on the draft. Hella fun game, but it has problems..
Scythe has a pretty large online community with tournament gaming - problem with it is that the "pros" have pretty much cracked the game, you need to be able to finish in ~15 turns if you want to hold a candle for them. :) Also, there are some overpowered faction / player mat combos, that would need to be banned in tournament setting.
The Quest for El Dorado Space base Santorini - 1 v 1 but best of 3. Each table has the same 6 gods Petrichor Anno 1800 Grand Austria Hotel Yokohama Village Power grid Concordia Carnegie Bus Tzolk’in Age of Steam
I miss mike in regular content Also Summoner Wars isn't just picking factions, you can do deck building can you not? It's more like Magic than it first appears.
Mike: top 10 abstract games… Dwellings of Eldervale. Top 10 thematic games….Dwellings of Eldervale. top 10 games for kids five and under…. Dwellings of Eldervale.
Wow. Out of the gate, I could not disagree with Mike more! His #10 is not balanced whatsoever and has a huge king making problem. The game is interesting enough that I can get over that casually but it would be an abysmal tournament game
Mike is a gem. Love every video he is in
So you guys are going to host a dice tower tournament now, right? I’d love that.
In no particular order five tournament games:
1: Can’t Stop - best of three or even five. I’m with you Mike!
2: blitzkrieg! WWII in 20 minutes
3: War Chest
4: Dice Throne
5: Century: Spice Road. With Tom on this!
17:34 Catan Tournaments are run exactly how Zee described his board setup for Istanbul. Smart guy that Zee Garcia.
2 things I really like about this top 10: you guys go much more in depth on how the games work and what they are than usual, 2 is interesting how games can play differently when like at through this lens.
I actually wish they went a *teensy* bit more into how the games work.
Interesting picks lol. I think I would have included Klask, Baseball Highlights, and Challengers too. Honestly, 2 player games I think are far best for tournaments.
2:21 hey that's me!
Where’s Unmatched?!
Tom's #1 was super intriguing! I like that idea.
Fearsome floors has been mentioned a couple of times now in recent videos. I would be interested to see a catchupalooza on this as I don't know much about it and it sounds like a fun playthrough to watch
An interesting topic, and some great picks. Games that came to mind for me other than those mentioned include Meadow and Mythic Mischief.
I haven't finished the video (just got to Mike's 7 - Root) but regarding the factions and maps:
I follow some Civ 6 channels which do tournaments and the way they handle these two issues is 1 - blacklist civs that no one can use, then they choose from what remains and 2 - map vetoes for the players where they call for a vote to reroll the map. This is less time consuming in a computer game than a board game but I could see that be an option depending on the game.
Cooperative game. Show up with 3 friends. Clock starts and whichever team finishes the most missions in (set time limit) wins. If multiple teams tie. They move on, starting from where they left off for another hour. Keep going until 1 team standing.... The Crew
I LOVE the magic maze idea Zee and I would 100% try this with friends!
Race for the Galaxy is the one that came to mind immediately for me.
Gosh I miss Mike in the studio! Come back!
I would totally go for a Dwellings of Eldervale tournament!! Solid pick Mike! =D
Captain Sonar would be great for tournament play. Like, huge hall, spectator sport tournament play!
I love this! I'm making a top 16 games list if I had to replace every game at the World Series. lll be making a video on it in the future.
I lost it when Mike suggested the coconut table
How has this never been a top 10 list till now
My 10 not already in WSBG
1) Five Tribes
2) Galaxy Trucker
3) 7 Wonders Duel
4) Space Base
5) Lewis and Clark
6) ZhanGuo
7) Yokohama
8) Marco Polo (except bid for powers)
9) Pursuit of Happiness (need a really good rules lawyer/ ref for this one. Tons of ways to mess up the rules)
10) CIA Cold War 2 player
Base, vanilla-ass Carcassonne. Simple rules, but the random element, combined with knowing/memorizing which tiles are in the bag and choosing where to place one's meeples make this a perfect tournament game.
It really is. There is a fierce competitive scene online and in-real-life tournaments, including a world tournament in Essen. I hoped someone would mention it.
41:15 on repeat 🤣
Why is Tom getting a briss?
Not saying I’ve watched a lot of DT videos, but I’ve never played or even seen Yinsh and I knew it was going to be Yinsh.
MIKE MIKE MIKE MIKE MIKE MIKE MIKE‼️‼️‼️
I am surprised nobody mentioned Indines. That game series was made for fighting tournaments. You do need everything twice though, otherwise a player gets locked out of their character.
Shoutout to the Root Winter Tournament and GuerricSamples
I fully agree with Hadara, excellent tournament potential.
I run a Club and just arranged a Night At The Races tournament...3 games- Formula D, Camel Up and Long Shot: The Dice Game.....cars, camels n horses, what's not to love and enjoy about that??!!😂😂
I was in a WSBG qualifier for Ark Nova and a guy played the "side entrance" the first turn. The game was over at that point because when playing the basic map he had access to a second association worker 2-3 rounds ahead of everyone else. Unfortunately Ark Nova is broken for that reason on the basic maps. I didn't have much fun that game because it didn't matter how well anyone played, it was the one guy's game to lose.
Which qualifier were you at?
dang yeah they should play the other maps... but idk how they would decide who gets which map. maybe everyone vetos 1 map and then picks out of the remaining reverse turn order?
My 5 would be: Camel Up, Cash & Guns, Sagrada, Tiny Towns, & The Godfather Corleone's Empire
Root works in a tournament setting with Avanced Setup. I play in the Winter Tournament and they also give Corvids 1 of each plot extra and use Despot Infamy with Vagabond which gives them one victory point per battle with a hostile faction in which they removed one piece instead of 1 point per piece.
I like those choices and there was some I didn't recognize? Last year's games, some were good too. I wouldn't add any 2 player games, but that's fine.
Res Arcana, It's a Wonderful World, Race for the Galaxy
Res Arcana? No one? Really? ;)
Dang Tom, why the hate for Yamatai? Love that game
Qin has tournament rules and is amazing
I’ve seen Rahdo discuss the tournament rules he heard about from Schmidt Spiele but was there anything official that was posted? I’d love to hear about it if so.
Id lovebto jnow what made you pick Hadara over Medieval Academy for this list. They play extremely similarly and want to know more 😊
Guards of Atlantis II, nothing better.
I think Sea Salt & Paper would be a great tournament game! I’m surprised Mike or Zee didn’t have it on their lists.
Also, Tiny Towns is awesome, but a bad choice for #1 😅
Surprised no one picked Scythe. They are already tournaments on this game without rule changes.
Many games with asymmetrical don't need banned factions. The easiest way WSBG can mitigate this is by adding a bidding end game victory points for factions and seat positions.
Realy thought Zee was gonna name Ethnos when talking up to nr6 keltis
You guys should really try Guards of Atlantis 2, it would make an AMAZING tournament.
Gotta love Zee 😆
I don't want to be anywhere near a Magic Maze "tournament" because I don't want to lose an eye from one of those pawns being thrown from frustration.
Through the Desert is a good choice, and whoever wins gets to eat the pieces.
Some interesting ones:
Hooky or The Search for Planet X for a pure deduction game.
Glen More II - keep adding new chronicles as you advance rounds.
Bullet ❤ if there were referees to make sure nobody inadvertently cheated
Las Vegas Royale - seems too obvious
War Chest and Boop and Klask for more obvious 2 player games
Stockpile for a quick speculation game.
Mike always has the hottest takes 😆
"Cooperative Twister - that's a game we won't talk about" an amazing joke slipped in unnoticed by Tom Vasel
@3:35 Nice! =D
I'm surprised Zee didnt put Neuroshima hex on his list. That would be a great tournament game.
Don't set up the tournament to be elimination right off the bat. Guarantee each player a couple games and then use the results of the first couple rounds to seed the finals. You need games that people don't mind playing back-to-back a few times. I played in a SmallWorld tournament one time and by the third game I just wanted to be done cause I was tired of playing the same game.
Some friends and I are going to do a trickshot tournament.
You play trickshot (hockey) and if you lose that game you move to the ‘loser’ bracket… which is 18holes(golf)
If long play is not a disqualifier and Orléans works, then Paladins works. Love both of those games.
Yeah, I love Orléans, but the set-up and take-down makes this one a difficult idea for a room full of a hundred people playing the same game, where each round thirty minutes is spent on maintenance. I mean, pretty much any game could be good for tournaments. Like, I think Twilight Struggle would be awesome too, but that also has a huge component factor. Maybe Concordia would be better, since it's basically just the map part of Orléans.
I want to go to your tournament
Surprised Onitama didn't make a list.
Cairn also
I Mike in the studio, or is he green screened in? If not, why does it look like a green screen?
Twilight Struggle? That’s my pick
I'm surprised Rock Paper Scissors didn't make any list.
Tiny Towns is a funny game I find. I really like the game, but I find it never actually gets to the table, and no-one ever asks to play it.
One weird aspect to some games is they are much better with their expansions which tournaments don't tend to use. The most obvious example is Ticket to Ride, the game is so much better with 1910 expansion, yet I never see tournaments actually play that way, and the base game feels bad once you've played 1910.
Heat: Pedal to the Medal has a bit of this. I've not seen it in a tournament setting yet, but I'd hope any tournament for it uses the garage module, as without it you're losing half the game imo. At least in this case, the module is actually in the base box, I have my doubts tournaments will actually play that way though.
I like Downforce, there is one frustrating aspect to it though. That I often see other players just gift the game to someone. Whereby they will be on the leader at the 1st betting line and help them win the race. Unless that player overbid for their car, you are just gifting that player the victory doing this, yet it's something I've frequently seen. When I teach the game in a private setting I actively point out in the teach that if you do this you are just gifting the game to that player, but you can't really do that in a tournament setting without coming across a dick. Also like above Downforce's expansion maps are so much better than the base maps.
I really enjoy tiny towns as well. Luckily I enjoy it solo enough to bring it out every once in a while.
Totally uneven, but I would love to host a Rum And Bones tournament where everyone gets a random team and needs to get it to the end.
I don't understand the choice of Zee for Downforce : isn't there a big runaway leader problem in this game?
I agree. And betting on the runaway leader doesn't make a difference because everyone is betting on them so it's a wash
@@ChrisHathaway Only if every player is playing badly.
It doesn't have a runaway leader problem if people are experienced and know what they're doing. Ie. Don't bet on the leader and help them win. Generally if players know what they're doing the leader will get ganged up upon.
The biggest problems Downforce has in a tournament setting is a) someone can totally dump the game to someone else, even unintentionally just by being inexperienced at the game and b) the expansion maps are so much better than the bland base maps and are unlikely to be used.
@@ozza000 That's indeed a gigantic issue. You can't expect all players to be experienced, there will always be that one guy/gal to mess things up. And there's also the ethical dilemmas of kingmaking, which this game is a treasure trove of.
No, this game is definitely not tournament worthy, that's a big no no there Mr Zee !
@@ozza000 it depends on the track as well. The base tracks have so many one lane sections that it's way too easy to sit on them if you are out of the gate early. The expansion tracks are much better at giving more opportunities to pass.
Mike's shirt though. DT merch?
What is that shirt? I was trying to figure it out the whole time.
Hoping Mike's #1 is Twilight imperium lol
I want to push back against Z's stance on imbalance in abilities in a game. He stated that he liked it in Yamatai because you can acquire those abilities in the game, making it fair. I would argue that it is better to have that imbalance with starting factions that are known and can be bid on (similar to how scythe tournaments work) than left to random chance of when they show up to be acquired during the course of the game.
Magic Maze tournament idea: isolate the players and have them interact with a digital board.
I realize it defeats a bit the idea of a board game tournament.
Surprised there is no mention of Star Realms and Hive
Yeah, Star Realms would be cool. It's pretty dang hard to beat experienced players. They've got the math all worked out.
32:56 lol
I'm normally a co-op or solo player but I'd enter a BATTLELORE SECOND EDITION tournament
A tournament list from Mike without Root with AdSet? Surprising.
Zeevil~ Fear the Zee!
Cosmic encounter
Ok, Hadara.. Only problem I have with this is that yellow always wins. Winning with yellow is completely dependant on the draft. Hella fun game, but it has problems..
Surprised not to see Scythe on Mike's list. The first 3 that came to my mind were Scythe, Root and Dwellings of Eldervale.
Scythe has a pretty large online community with tournament gaming - problem with it is that the "pros" have pretty much cracked the game, you need to be able to finish in ~15 turns if you want to hold a candle for them. :) Also, there are some overpowered faction / player mat combos, that would need to be banned in tournament setting.
The Quest for El Dorado
Space base
Santorini - 1 v 1 but best of 3. Each table has the same 6 gods
Petrichor
Anno 1800
Grand Austria Hotel
Yokohama
Village
Power grid
Concordia
Carnegie
Bus
Tzolk’in
Age of Steam
I miss mike in regular content
Also Summoner Wars isn't just picking factions, you can do deck building can you not? It's more like Magic than it first appears.
I'm surprised not to see Blood Rage, Cyclades or Kemet on any list. I think any one of those would be great
Galaxy trucker tournament
unmatched?
Magic maze: squid games edition
Why should push your luck in a tournament? Games should be rewarding skill in tournaments not luck.
When it comes to games like summoner wars you can bring 5 factions and two will be banned. Best out of 3
Mike: top 10 abstract games… Dwellings of Eldervale. Top 10 thematic games….Dwellings of Eldervale. top 10 games for kids five and under…. Dwellings of Eldervale.
I’m kidding if that isn’t obvious 🤪
No Slamwich!?!??!
Appalling....
No Arnak? What's wrong with you people?
Wow. Out of the gate, I could not disagree with Mike more!
His #10 is not balanced whatsoever and has a huge king making problem. The game is interesting enough that I can get over that casually but it would be an abysmal tournament game
Onitama? No one? Really?
Games that come to mind
Rurik dawn of Kiev
Blood Rage
Architects ot West Kingdom
Raiders ot North Sea
Onitama
Fort
Clank!
Ethnos
Parks
Berenpark
Cribbage and backgammon. Sometimes the older games are a better chose.