FN Grand Browning: The European 1911 that Never Happened
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When John Browning licensed his handgun patents, the North American rights were granted to Colt, and the Western European rights to FN in Belgium. Browning provided the patents and patent model guns to the companies, and they were then free to interpret the design however they thought best. In the case of the shrouded-hammer blowback system, the Colt interpretation (the Pocket Hammerless) was a civilian concealed pistol in .32ACP, while the FN interpretation (Model 1903) was a substantially larger gun in 9x20 Browning Long intended for military service.
The locked-breech patent was the same. Colt developed it into the Model 1911 adopted by the US military, and FN built a slightly smaller version in 9.65x23mm intended for European military service. However, while the Colt pistol became tremendously popular, FN's development was disrupted by World War One, and never completed in its aftermath. Only a couple dozen examples of the Grand Browning, as it was called, were made before the war, and just a few survive today. We will never know how European militaries would have responded to a Browning locked-breech pistol at the time...
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Tucson, AZ 85704
Cut scene from Pulp Fiction:
"You know what they call a Colt 1911 in Europe?"
"Mr. Nine Millimetre."
JohnsonLobster Le Grande Browning
"Le Star BM"
@@vaclav_fejt
Star model B : Hitman Jules Winnfield (Samuel L Jakson) carries a 9mm Star model B throughout the film. Some audience members and critics have been confused due to the Model B's visual similarity to the .45 ACP 1911 series (like Vincent's Auto-Ordnance M1911A1), which has led to some listing Jule's reference to his gun as "Mister nine-millimeter" as a goof, but as the Star Model B is a 9mm gun, it is not a mistake.
@@fabrb26 I knew that. :-) I thought it would be suitable to answer a Pulp Fiction reference with another, albeit not the exact calibre as 9,8 mm.
I always wondered why there was no FN 1911. Now I'm trying to imagine a Colt hi power in 45.
A Colt Hi Power in .45ACP would basically be similar in concept to the later Para-Ordnance P14-45 which is just a 1911 with the grip widened to take 14 round double stack magazines.
Colt Lo-Power
8:06 *WAR WERE DECLARED*
_Explosions, gunshots and old footage of soldiers doing weird things_
Othias strikes back.
@AliasSLH Interesting point. Most here are probably going to relate this to Othias at _C&Rsenal,_ Ian's collaborated with them.
th-cam.com/channels/lq1dvO44aNovUUy0SiSDOQ.html
Given the WWI reference Ian made, it's likely that.
But Othias may have gotten the saying from this November 2000 episode -
_Futurama War Were Declared_
th-cam.com/video/v8Ha6tNvRUg/w-d-xo.html
So true!
@@Ni999 I've always figured othias was referring to futurama
Beat me to it.
I have not heard of this one before. Truly an episode that makes the name of the channel more than enough justice !!!
8:06
*tank with reversing beep sounds*
*artillery firing*
*pompom firing*
*a bunch of soldiers eating soup*
I heard and saw all of that... and I'm not even high.
There are two of these pistols in the world. Epic fireplace guy has one.
That guy’s arms room must be fantastic.
From what we’ve seen it seems like it’s arms rooms plural
@@elisorrells5314you think he employs a master at arms like a medieval king to keep him informed of the stock of weaponry
I did some reading and the 9.8x23mm round had 130-150 grain bullets. Depending on the powder load, this could have put it in the realm of .40 S&W decades early.
I had wondered why FN had not used the 1919/1911 design, as they had put most of John Browning's other pistol designs into production. Now I know what happened.
Imagine one of those CSI tv shows finding 9.8mm projectiles and cartridge cases at a crime scene... ...investigation.
Only Gun Jesus could solve the case.
@RocketSurgeon its movies. the medical examiner digs the slugs out very caerfully, initials the backs packages witnesses them, hands them to a ltnt. who takes them to the geek at the crime lab with the comparison microscope.. its ice or wooden bullets that gives peop[le trouble..........rgw
@RocketSurgeonYeah, they're like "Also, the shooter was wearing green slacks and a top hat. He'd had waffles for breakfast and enjoys sudoku and the movies of Adam Sandler. In high school he had a wet dream about his history teacher. He's never been to Ecuador and is on bad terms with his Aunt Nellie. Sorry, but I'll need to the lab report to tell you why."
Or 32 french
Well, there's only two. And Ian's sitting there with one of them. He might have some splaining to do!
@RocketSurgeon .. and the muzzle velocity was 1253 fps, as any fool can see from the cloth in the wound ... yup
Sees fireplace, of course we have a fantastically cool pistol then.
Fireplace guy must be the most interesting eccentric millionaire or billionaire out there
I dare to bet that the fireplace guy is Anthony Vanderlinden.
@@ardenelenduil2334 who?
@@nunyabeeswax2575 Guy who wrote literally wrote the book. He's the author of several FN reference works.
@@ardenelenduil2334 well that's nice to know.
Another awesome gun from the "Fireplace Collection." Thank you to the mysterious benefactor of Forgotten Weapons. The number of cool guns presented in front of this fireplace is awe inspiring.
“You know what they call an Mc1911 in Brussels? A Grand Browning with cheese”
FN is based in Herstal, not Brussels but funny joke anyways.
That is a tasty FN!
@Christie MalryI SAID, DOES HE LOOK LIKE A REVOLVER?!
Oh right, because of the metric system.
@@billmccrackin8825 you mind if i have some of your tasty beverage to wash this down?
I Always appreciate a well placed "war were declared"
Thank you Fireplace guy for having such an awesome museum/private collection. Please live for another 100 years at least because it needs to stay together or build a museum trust even if they aren’t displayed but simply kept as reference.
European Gun Manufacturers: Awesome, our fancy new gun design is about to be-
War: Nope.
This is basically European gun design in the first half of the 20th century in a nutshell, especially around WWI
A serbian student with a pistol : haha, no
@@blujet4699 Especially Poland. It's too bad the Wzor 38 rifle never made mass production.
The game that contains very high customization and more than 500 guns:
@@MegaZeta Very cool
Browning: Makes a gun patient/design.
Literally every other gun company: Give me your entire stock.
Read your word before the slash.
@@JW...-oj5iw Doctor Browning our patient needs a pistol with good stopping power, incredible reliability, and a high rate of fire, Stat!
@Ios5513 ... You're correct. There is no u. Not too relevant, though.
Thank you again fireplace guy for sharing.
Ian. Please say "THANK YOU" to fireplace person(s).
My thoughts exactly, my best wishes for the person who allows us to witness this fascinating pieces of history.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the fireplace is actually at Ian's house and he uses it to film firearms that have been sent to him in order to do these videos. Whilst it is possible that the fireplace guy exists and is the person that has all these pistols, I think it's more likely Ian has been sent them, due to all his numerous contacts.
@@jcorbett9620 . Even if so i ad an "s" to person and thank everybody who send in theses amazing, rare and intersting firearms.
@@jorgschimmer8213 His name is Bill Chase. There is an interview with him on the channel: th-cam.com/video/fSp3K42YR2U/w-d-xo.html
You're welcome
@@andersbendsen5931 . Thanks for that Info.
Back in the 1970s I was working in post maintenance at Ft. Hood, TX is a 45B20 Small Arms Repairman. I saw a few of those "Sharks fin" front sights on some 1911A1s most of which had been rebuilt many times. Geoff Who has been around awhile.
I believe the front sight profile was one of the changes from M1911 to M1911A1 (among several others).
@@USSEnterpriseA1701 According to the sacred tome TM 9-1005-211-34 (Plus supplemental Material Published by Grenadie3r Books, Inc. 1985 "Wide Sights" are the difference. Geoff Who has these things in his library.
@@GCJT1949 Well I suppose memory isn't a perfect record. I wonder then if it was either a difference that arose from different makers or it was some minor change made for the civilian production that slipped in. Both are not unknown to weapons production for militaries.
Very cool gun (as a Belgian I have a special interest in anything made by FN) and excellent book on display next to the pistol.
Turns out Fireplace Guy is actually a sentient fireplace. How he acquired so many cool guns.....only he wood know.
years of watching your work and you continue to fascinate me with your stories and historical lessons ....... thank you!
I wonder if they had a little further along if the occupying Germans would have sought to have a 9x19mm version made for their troops and what impact that might have had going forward.
Almost none, I'd say. The Germans were happy with their P08 and didn't bother changing until 1938, which was after the Hi Power exists.
Sidearms werent really a thing outside of officer ranks
They would've loved em but pistols are not gamechangers in big euro wars
FN basically refuses to work for the Germans in ww1.
I WW2 the Nazis used the Norwegian Colt .45 Licensed copies. I do not know if they built new or used stocks on hand in Norway. Geoff Who notes stories about variations over long years.
Thanks to Fireplace guy for letting us see this (almost) unique pistol. A fascinating bit of history and neat Browning side story.
Yay Ian! I've been looking for info on the Grand for a year; ever since I was browsing an ammo list and said, _"9.8mm Auto Colt!? 9.65mm Browning Long!?!? What the heck are these??"_
I thought the only place I would find answers would be in that expensive coffee-table gun book you're showing--god bless the Internet!
A pity about the Grand, would have been a lovely gun for WW2. FN today ought to make one now that anybody can do it.
1911's evil twin from Europe. I kinda expected it to have a top hat and French moustaches
it is not french, just like Hercule Poirot, it is Belgian thankyouverymuch
(still the same getup though)
@@AsbestosMuffins And just like Poirot, just a little bit arrogant but more than capable to back it up. ;)
That's the next video. Yes, it also has a monacle.
Most likely a baraki with belgian fries and triple Karmeliet
Belgians: “what’s that?”
*War were declared*
This is a depressing amount of Belgian history.
Who started saying “war were declared”? I first heard it from Othias but I don’t know if he started it.
@@con6lex Futurama reference, at very least.
Dead Sea Scrolls of Gospel of Browning. =)
I wonder how much would be involved in a company doing a small run of Grand Brownings, kind of like that .45 ACP Luger project.
Why-hasn't -this-happened-yet!?
"A fantastically cool pistol" and "1 of 2 in the world" and "Browning" and "1911".. Thank you Ian
Deposė is probably best translated as "filed", as in patent filed (but not necessarily awarded).
robloxbear52 patreon access. Gosh how dumb are people
@@blacktemplar2377 this video may have been privated or unlisted and this person either found it or was sent a link by someone else. Especially since I think he's currently on site at an auction house right now.
I imagine that it's a cognate of the English word "deposition."
so essentially "Patent Pending"
@@johnn8223 Indeed it is.
Fireplace Collector, one of two known Grand Brownings. Wonder where the other is. I'd love a walking tour of his entire collection.
Showing both would be rude
Still at the FN factory, would be the assumption?
The other one is on the safe 😉
Excellent choice!
I have the 2.0 version of this gun.
As gorgeous as the ported stainless steel barrel looks in it I ended up swapping it out for a standard oem black m&p barrel though.
I just personally didn’t find the benefits of the ported barrel to really be worth the downsides.
But that’s just me. I’ll still throw in the ported barrel at the range every once in a while.
You've taught me that quite a few guns never saw major production because war were declared at one point or another
Gun Jesus blessed this morning with the glorious 1911.
"War were declared" C&Rsenal Othais would be proud. Lol
Xochiltepetzala Ilhuicamina think you mean Futurama.
I like the proportions of the slightly smaller 1911, but I particularly appreciate how they matched the wood grain on the fireplace with the grain on Ian's forehead.
Truly interesting, and leaves me wanting more. 😁 Thanks, Ian! Nice presentation.
"War were declared."
*Pauses, waiting for cannon sounds like Pavlov's Dog*
Gotta love anything made by Browning.
Shooting with Mitch anything made by browning post 2010 is trash. Absolute garbage.
@@chrisalbrecht2894 I have to disagree, both my post-2010 brownings shotguns (a 2010 Citori and a 2018 525 sporter one) are both excellent, while my late fathers handmade B2g from 1975 is simply sublime. What I would say is that they are no better or worse now than their main competitors and have to rely more on the clout of the name rather than on being innovative.
@@chrisalbrecht2894 How many pistols do you own and are any of them Glock?
seth Thomas 1 glock numerous 1911’s, a hi-power and several various brand .22’s. And I was confused my apologies I was thinking Remington.
Fascinating.
Thanks for this really informative video.
You've been hanging out with Othias again haven't you
I have always said the Browning HiPower in .45ACP with its large magazine would have been the best, sans magazine disconnect.
Just use the 1911 thumb safety instead of the squishy tiny hi-power one and we have a winner.
@@Rocketsong Wouldn’t that just be a double stack Para Ordnance style 1911? lol
By now it's rare that Ian features a firearm I'm not familiar with. This is one of them! Very cool
Fireplace guy strikes again
I'm so conditioned to expect the little clip Othais plays after "War were declared."
Ian: "War were declared"
Me: *happy Baby Yoda face*
@@toki89666 It's from a Futurama episode where two of the main characters sign up for the army to get a discount on gum after they're told they can quit anytime they want, unless *war were declared*.
Then, it so happens that *war WERE declared*.
Thanks for the video.
Thank you Ian! Always informative and certainly interesting!
7:03
Miscalculation of the century
Yeah, too bad that whole "high power" thing never really worked out for them. A 1911 in a weird proprietary caliber would definitely have been the way to go.
Not really. The reason the 1911 ended up selling so well as a commercial pistol for Colt was its success as a military sidearm. And there wasn't big civilian demand at the time for a large pistol. FN already owned the civilian semi-auto market in Europe with the Browning 1900 and 1910 pocket pistols and 1905 vest pocket pistol. Those were what European civilians went for. There was more interest in large pistols in America, but FN's agreement with Colt meant they couldn't sell Browning designs to that market.
*If* the Grand Browning had gotten a military contract, that probably would've led to some civilian demand for it down the road. But that would've still been niche compared to the military sales and pocket pistol sales. It wasn't until later that full-size pistols became more popular for civilian ownership. By which point Browning had the Hi-Power.
@@PrototypeSpaceMonkey 9x19mm wasn't universal yet in 1914. It was already popular, but it wasn't until later that it became the default military pistol cartridge. Had WW1 come a bit later and the Belgian military (or the Serbian military, which IIRC also had some interest) adopted the Grand Browning, the 9.65mm round would've come into wide-scale production and would've been seen as a perfectly normal caliber.
I think Ian sums it up at 9:00; next iteration, double stack, high capacity. They went from this to the gun that would go on to be the bench mark for military pistols.
@@RedXlV Hmm, I guess it could have been... But I was just talking with my hindsight glasses on.
Ian! By the way I salute your effort in pronouncing the names of various weapons and brand names in their original languages, much appreciated. For your information and curiosity, "d'armes" should be pronounced as if there was no appostrophe: "darme" (the "s" is silent). Love your videos, very informative. Keep 'em coming! :)
"War were declared" Don't sound right without artillery fire afterwards
Would love to have seen a field strip/internals, but what a great episode.
Perhaps the FN Grande Browning was the design model that Star used to create the Model B series of pistols. The Star is narrower like the FN and the grip attachments are in a similar place.
Good stuff on a pistol I never knew about! Great Channel.
"And then War was Declared!" For a small moment I was expecting Ian to morph into Othias.
A 1911 in 9.8mm is nearly as cool as a Luger in .45
Thanks Ian. That was really interesting.
.
A sad thought- some American brought one home in 1919, sat for years between the mattress. He lives a good life has numerous children and Grandchildren and they have children, 1990 or so he goes to a nursing home and dies. His widow hangs on a few more years, then in the late 1990's she goes. The surviving Grandchildren really got in to the Culture of the 1960's and being antiwar/ gun they take Grandpa's guns to a 'buyback' event that their city is putting on with Brady or any of the other antigun org's. In to the Furnace it goes. Now the question I have is how many irreplaceable works of art have gone to the Furnace?
I have looked online to see if someone has done a field strip. I could not find a video. I would like to see the differences on the inside. Maybe in the future . Thank you Mr McCollum for years of education,entertainment and knowledge.
8:05 Who else was expecting a montage at exactly this moment and was discombobulated when it didn't happen? 🤔
The fireplace needs it's own playlist.
Thank you , Ian .
War were declared should be the only way to refer to the start of ww1
Ian: I am going to show you such a cool gun you are going to want to sell half your collection to get one... oh yea it is one of two in existence; which means it is probably worth more than a **nice** house in an upscale zip code in California... But perhaps you might want to buy this cool book as a consolation prize. Me: Looks up the book on Amazon figuring I'll pick up a copy and with Prime Shipping I'll be reading it on Wednesday evening... oops - the price $900 and change... (Okay there was one cheap copy for $300 and change.)
The Hi-power has three significant design items which are noticably considerably worse than the 1911. 1 - the pivoting trigger, 2 - the "spoogy" tiny thumb safety, 3 - the magazine interlock.
If FN had managed to get these to market, I can picture the eventual P-35 being a double stack version of the Grand Browning, deleting the grip safety and barrel link. That would be a great design.
Imagine this in 9mm, might have been very adoptable by the UK even at the detriment of preventing adoption of the Browning hi-power
Quite possible. C.1950 the British Army tested the Colt Commander in 9x19mm as a lighter alternative to the High Power.
Nice pistol i have a remington rand perfect condition great gun
Speaking of FN, and Browning I want to see Ian do a video on the development of the High Power in the interwar years...
Wow, I'm a huge 1911 fan but I haven't ever known that this existed. Always thought the Hi-Power was just a way to get around the 1911 patents.
Maybe the best video of this channel.
Damn it, I read the title as "Garand Browning" and was hoping for a internal magazine top-fed 1911.
My Goodness prophet browning has done wonders again!
You learned me up again, Gun Jesus
what a cool pistol! the surface finish is pretty nice, the polish is pretty good not as good as colt but close enuf for me lol.
Historically, of course, "the Grand Browning" was also the common term for what happened to most of Europe's pants when they saw Napoleon's armies coming in the previous century. Presumably FN's marketing people were playing on that, and the general inability of people in eastern Europe to distinguish Belgium from France.*
* none of this is true
...this pistol is mentioned in the BHP (forget the title and too lazy - too many cervezas - to go and look) book by Collector Grade Pubs...it was to be a true .38 cal, but was never produced...
Wasn’t the 9.8mm caliber very similar to the modern .40sw? I heard that browning was trying to mimic the old Winchester .38/40
According to some writers, it matched a .41cal Colt Auto test round from 1904 that Colt was shooting out of modded M1902s.
The 9.65mm's smaller bullet pushed it at just 150ft/sec less than .38 Super.
Ian @ Forgottenweapons There is an excellent article about this pistol and the 9.8 Colt, that I am almost certain you've already read, by Wiley Clapp (whom, I would guess, read the same book as shown in the video):
"9.8mm or 9.65mm?"
Wednesday, January 22, 2014
Available online at AmericanRifleman.org
As a firearm geek.... I can clearly state that this is news to me. Excellent information/education!!! :^)
I felt the build-up to War Were Declared and I was smiling like an idiot when it did come. Cool episode and nice nod to C&Rsenal.
Only Ian can hold a first year production 1911 and just use it as a comparison.
Well, it helps that he is in the 'fireplace' collection. That collector has *everything*.
Uploaded 3 mins ago, there's a comment from a month ago somehow
Early access for Patreon supporters.
Ian uploaded this previously recorded video before falling asleep on a cot in the back room at RIA
It would've been so awesome if after he said "War were declared" he would have just paused and looked around with cricket sounds in the background
Love you Ian, but @ 6:53 my you know what puckered somthen fierce!
Great history. Thanks
And the fireplace strikes again, I swear that thing is the gun world’s version of the T.A.R.D.I.S .
The *FN 1911*
😳
FN and Browning make pretty guns
Very interesting an thanks for showing this FN Grand Browning 1911 , Gun Jesus !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When is a video on vss coming
Did Ian lived in the collector's house just for filming his entire pistol collections ?
Fascinating welcome, entertaining, thanks!
Ooh, another 'fireplace' episode!
Shoot it at ballistic gel. What kind of penetration/wound cavity.
I like that this pistol existed. It makes me not feel so bad about my 9mm 1911 "not being historically accurate". Now I can say that it kind of is. Haha!
*casually* this is a first year of production 1911
I had a think but could not figure out why there is a lanyard loop on the bottom of the magazine. A single magazine seems like an odd thing to attach a lanyard to. Could it be to aid in extracting a stuck magazine?
Most militaries only issued two or three magazines per pistol. If you lost them you probably couldn't get replacements while on campaign. And if you did you'd probably have to pay for them.
That's why so many old European semi-auto pistols have a heel release rather than a thumb button.
And here I was thinking I knew all the 1911 variants...
Was the tab on the FN floor plate also a spring to aid the ejection of the magazine?