A lot of the options in game don't even work the way they're intended Loner doesn't even give the main benefit it is built towards since coherency toughness deactivates when fighting enemies which means that Loner is only useful for preventing the AI from spawning disablers that hunt down far away players Veteran's focus is meant to be a sniping keystone but only really works when full autoing into hordes Warp charges is really confused since it tries too be like the old system that rewarded holding onto as many as you could but also removes all of them on using your ult
Loner does nothing to prevent special spawns. People on reddit who think they know what they're talking about love to parrot this. Coherency has nothing to do with special spawns it's based on distance from your teammates.
@@Sir_Laks Loner (and to so some extent a lot of other auras in this game) is literally whatever. The only reason you'd take loner is if you're planning to use stealth and don't want to spend a bunch of points on stupid shit. You can path all the way to the left after taking blades of faith and grab benediction but those talent points can be spent on something mutch more valuable than a static 15% toughness DR. So yeah, basically auras are dumb and people who bend backwards to include a specific aura in every build even when it's not cost efficient to do so are quite silly and should probably not do that
@@Sir_Laksone thing for loner: when you go stealth, enemies lose their slots around you, so you can regen toughness in those couple seconds and also disengage. Its an extremely unoptimal build cos youd need all coherency regen perks on curios and the talent AND its gimped the more toughness you have total. But you can play it solo like a rat and go in and out of stealth to regen more toughness than the stealth node itself. Even then there are better builds to regen toughness in combat.
Vet can one-tap crushers with 1 power sword strike, snipe through hordes with plasma, destroy bulwarks with bolters/nades AND gets insane toughness DR and ranged toughness replenishment. Then there is also Voice or Command that can grant you golden toughness in 1 press of a button on a short CD. Zealot and Psyker can do all other kinds of crazy crap. Both are speed demons with toughness replenishment and insane damage and support options. And Ogryn gets a FNP nerf, because devs nowadays HATE passive tankiness.
@@Poppenheimer69Ogryn has been nerfed a lot in general, while the other more played and stronger classes don't get touched and even receive buffs from time to time. Fatshark likes treating us like the shitty pet we are it seems, and I'm pretty tired already. Not to mention how our lack of weapon variety is killing my overall enjoyment as well. Guess I'll turn into a zealot main sooner or later, especially considering that cool af 2h power sword in the horizon.
To be fair, ogyrn with the class's potential stagger strength makes him basically invincible if you play so, his damage reduction is just a bonus after
I find it baffling that Fatshark decided to make you not regen coherency toughness when enemies are nearby. I'm glad I tested and discovered that very early, never wasted my time with these kinds of toughness regens.
Yeah, SUPER strange. It's basically just a mechanic for under leveled players to be able to get their toughness back in the lower difficulties where there's not very many enemy spawns . . . but then why are there keystones that are wasted on this mechanic that is useless in mid/high difficulties lmao makes no sense.
After over 700 hours I've only just learnt this from this video. I just assumed coherency gave toughness when near teammates period. I didn't know about the ranged damage blocking it and I didn't know it was blocked based on enemy proximity. Now I know it basically just works like anti-temp health regenerating toughness OUT of combat. I don't know if this is conveyed in the game or not, but I feel like an idiot now. Changing my builds is going to make the game way easier now that I'm not dumping it into this.
@@hellfeesh I'm pretty sure it's never actually mentioned ANYWHERE in game. I found out by pure accident when I was testing other sources of toughness regen.
Ogryn already does get both just going left tree. FNP is somewhat redundant, melee Ogryn already don't really die except to Trappers, Hounds or like 6 Crushers. The only difference FNP makes is you can choose to take that one node that pushes Hounds off you.
@@FireAntat the higher difficulties you don’t really notice it. Especially bc zealot is getting like 70% toughness damage resist for criting and martyrdom. Veteran is getting gold toughness with some ridiculous amount of toughness damage resist from iron will. Psyker, has scriers gaze. Ogryn is a worse tank, it’s why I switched to zealot.
Another iteration would be to make the keystone lean more towards Tank and Defensive Support roles. *Keystone - Feel No Pain* - Grants 1% Damage Resistance (Both Health and Toughness) per Stack, gain 1 Stack per enemy Pushed, Suppressed, or Blocked, and 3 Stacks upon taking Health Damage. While at 25 Stacks, your Coherency Toughness Regeneration can only be interrupted by taking Health damage. Stacks last 10 seconds. *Modifier 1 - Strongest!* - Gain 1% Impact Bonus per Stack of *Feel No Pain* . While *Feel No Pain* is at 25 Stacks, your next Special Attack on Monstrocities will spend all Stacks to Stagger them. *Modifier 2 - Pained Outburst* - Whenever you are Disabled or your Health drops below a Wound, *Feel No Pain* will spend 25 Stacks if possible to push back enemies and replenish 25% Toughness. *Modifier 3 - Protect the Lil' Uns!* - While at 25 Stacks, Allies in Coherency gain 50% of the Damage Resistance granted by *Feel No Pain* . Whenever an Ally is Knocked Down or Disabled, gain 25 Stacks. --- Doesnt have the same flair as adding a new ability to the Ogryn, but it should help players personify the Shieldgryn playstyle better.
thank you for this video being so clear and concise, i've been playing ogryn since the beta and never realized a lot of these things, hopefully i can be even mightier going forward
It's even worse if you use it with a "tank" melee - Slab Shield. You can become almost invulnerable when blocking, so you only really receive damage when attacking or running without defending yourself AT ALL. Only worthwhile attacks are the heavy ones, so you basically always receive benefits from the left path, without having to bother with stack upkeep of FNP or playing too defensively.
That's My Secret, S'ah is the perfect name for that talent. It might even feel a little essential since it puts the Roar on a 50 second cooldown if you're not stopping to grind it out. And the process of grinding it out sounds really slow if you're not a Taunt Ogryn.
Yeah it opens it up to be more usable by the other abilities. I think keystones should be more interesting than they are currently and have different synergies with their classes abilities, it would be so cool to have extra distinction between builds like that.
I'm happy to see people re-thinking some of these stinker nodes/capstones on Ogryn. That said - blocking just isn't something your doing all that often - it's filler between heavy hits/dodging and is pretty passive. What if instead you got a benefit for pushing/blocking. Pushing you do a fair bit more often as it can give you and your team space. What if instead we gained some kind of limited invuln or DR based upon staggering enemies then tacked on a node that gave your team bonus damage to staggered enemies? I like the idea of your big shout knocking everyone down so maybe add that as a node that makes your say 10th push a shout instead that knocks everything down or triggers on something else like you suggested.
Something that stacks on stagger was my original idea, but we already have the extra strong push node, and i wanted to keep in the vein of encouraging enemies to attack or at least getting benefits from stray hits (which ogryns are a huge recipient of). Stagger is a strong mechanic already, but there arent any abilities that synergize with taunting enemies to hit your block, so i wanted to make something for that.
Maybe, but there needs to be more benefit to actually block in this game, and with Slab Shield, the Ogryn can block with practically no risk. Though 50 is way too many without that node tax he designed, so maybe 20. I mean unless you purposely stack Stamina anyway 20 will require you to have your block broken at least twice. Then maybe he can increase the time for the tax from 1s to 2s so it's not procing every 20, not that I personally think that'd be an issue.
@@MisterEtide I see your vision for this and like your idea of a big aoe knockdown - I just worry that even then the tree would be missing the damage meta that seems to be the big chase. Furthermore as you repeatedly stated taking hits is bad - blocking is slightly better but still pretty niche as I'm typically only blocking shooters, while in movement or dodging back after a hit. Maybe some kind of enrage mechanic where instead of hitting the floor you have a number of seconds to kill everything around you and gain back some/most/all of the health you lost. This would certainly empower you to get stuck in and care less about taking some bad hits.
A lot of the Ogryn weapons have a pretty strong Push\Attack combo. The Shield does a strong overhead smash that'll one shot elites. And the pick axes do a nice sweep attack that is great for snagging dogs and sweeping aside the mob sitting in your slots.
You know i love ogryn, the aggressive playstyle itches that little aggressive goblin in my brain. But i certainly would like more build options. I dont much like the stubbers, so heavy hitter is it really, and thats unfortunate.
I dont think that'd be as good in Darktide as it is in Vermintide due to how toughness works, especially on Ogryn. If youre at full toughness and take a hit, if that hit's damage doesnt exceed your max toughness then you won't take any health damage from the hit because your 100% toughness will absorb 100% of that damage. Ogryns regen toughness like craaaazy cause of the heavy attack perks, which means Ogryn in majority of scenarios can reliably tank individual hits regularly. For as long as hes hitting something anyways, which you should be doing if something else is hitting you. If they really wanted something like Ironbreaker's passive, i would make it so that if Ogryn's toughness breaks, he gets a 1 second grace period where he takes no damage. Idk what the cooldown would be.
@@armintor2826 staying at full toughness as the ogryn is not an easy task lol any range enemy can hit you at any time. If you are locked in melee and some range trash hits you then you are vulnerable till you go back to full toughness (not hard to do) but the window of gettin some damage pierce your HP is possible.
@@armintor2826 That is a good point to bring up. How about we have it trigger instead on health damage taken so it prevents the toughness bleed-through along with giving .5 or 1 second invulnerable period as well to regain lost toughness.
I used to play ogryn a lot and watched this thinking “wait I used to really like this node” then I remembered that was when I’d play on difficulty 4 and had no clue how the game worked. Also dang it has some misleading language.
Thanks for this, i think i want to build an Ogrin next and i appreciate your channel’s efforts and suggestions. Knowing what works and why is really helpful.
Honestly I've always been surprised they didn't make Feel No Pain work like Iron Breaker Bardin's Gromrl Armor in Vermintide 2; I like your ideas better then just straight porting that over, but either would be way better then what we have now
Slap and upper cut used to be better back when it could stagger Monsters, now at best it's good for staggering a single Rager. But more importantly, 50 Blocks is a lot, that's enough to break even a Stamina Stacking Ogryn twice, or non-stacking 7 times. Not to mention your Timer Node becomes yet another tax. Personally, at the very least I'd drop the Block req down to 20 Blocks and double the Timer to 2s if you think a knock down every 20s is too much, even if Voice of Command is only 30s.
New PS5 player here... OK I didn't really understand the hype until I played and beat my 1st Malice level match, this game is INSANE! 10/10 Banger... Just wanted to throw that in... I love how you guys are breaking it down to keystones, I didn't even know what these wee a couple days ago lol.
Used it for the penance and kept using it for a while after until I realized how backwards it was. Your reward for not taking damage is taking less damage... if you just went full heavy hitter ogryn and kept hitting things, you CAN'T take damage
I really like the kind of re-works that give the class a way to use their abilities differently. This makes a so-far inert and passive Keystone into something interesting you can actively use and use your understanding of the ability to time it for great effect. I also love your naming convention there (like in the Burst Limiter Override video).
This keystone needs a rework but I think you went a little hard on the paint with how you expose the total hits to activate pained outburst to hits to get downed. In a real situation you are getting hitted while you also hit&kill enemies so that might even some odds to get some Toughness back? I would love if this skill gives you a dual stack gameplay modifier you gain stacks of You makin me mad that gives you attack speed while you lose stacks of feel no pain
I thought this as well. I don't think it undercuts his broader point, but it's either a bit shortsighted or disingenuous to say that you'll be dead before your stacks deplete based on standing in place and taking hits. He just got done demonstrating the Ogryn's capacity to refill their toughness using heavy swings a couple minutes ago. A much much more realistic scenario is that a player would be trading hits with enemies while also killing at least some of them, meaning it's possible if not likely that someone would have a lot of health and toughness left even once ten stacks have depleted. I know personally that most melee hits I take don't matter because they're infrequent enough that usually I'll have topped back off before the next one, and I'm talking about on other classes that don't gain 20% toughness each time they swing their weapon. That said, even a scenario where you've lost your stacks but have max or near max health/toughness still has its own problems with FNP anyway, which he notes. Because the "damage reduction" is actually toughness damage reduction, now you've got a big ol' pool of toughness (or at a minimum 20% of it from Pained Outburst) and none of your keystone's benefit to go along with it. But maybe that's the intent by FS behind providing toughness damage reduction that can be beat out of you- that if you're only able to stay on your feet with that extra TDR, you'll still gradually start losing ground as it disappears. Anyway, I agree with the broader points in the video. This was just something that stood out to me as well.
I’d want a breakdown of infiltrate. It just feels like such a confused ability with all its modifiers and fatshark didn’t know what to do with it so gave it a bunch of half assed modification options that each aren’t really too game changing.
Some cool ideas here! I love the keystones that you actively engage with in the game like Disrupt Destiny or Weapons Specialist, and ogryn sorely needs more engaging builds.
Wow. I knew that talent was bad but I had no idea it straight up lies to you about toughness replenishment when it really means coherency regen. Thanks for the enlightenment once again sah!
My only concern would be that the Roar and the Invulnerability have a slight bit of anti-synergy. In that, if you knock everyone down then you lose out on soem of the value of the Invulnerability becauze they aren't attacking you anyway. That said, it gives you Invulnerability to ranged attacks so it would still be useful. I think another interesting component would be if the keystone also gives you increased impact on melee attacks or maybe add an area of supression like teriffying barrage to your melee kills after the initial roar.
Nice video, good accurate info on what the nodes do :) A few things though: - Being shot stops coherency but doesn't disable it; Especially with TDR perks they also reduce its activation delay. Literally half a second after being shot it will kick in. Blocking with shield (ofc most optimal for anti-gunners) will instantly trigger the regen. Starting sprinting or dodging even will trigger the regen. This is why Toughness Regen matters in any gunfight. Any split moment between shots let the Coherency regen to trigger; Usually it's very low and you will get barely 5~10 toughness back in that moment before getting shot again - not a big deal. But with all the regens you can get on ogryn, you can virtually triple that number. Which is often enough to tank a shot that would otherwise snap your toughness off. And since shooting doesn't do HP dmg before toughness is depleted... it adds a lot of overall survivability. I'll be happy to share some clips to show how often it actually engages. - Just an additional info I think is pertinent for full understanding: You can't lose more than 1 stack of FNP per second - so being in front of a Gunner by accident wont shave you down instantly; Give you a moment to react with little loss. - Pained Outburst does suck and need a low grading. Shame it got nerfed so hard.
so, do you think the use case has been misunderstood a little bit? im reading the other comments and im thinking... we got that big melee run--in-smash-head-get-rations left side tree, the "heretics cannot outsmart bullet" left side tree, so is the middle tree meant to be more like "stand behind me punie" and do a bit more of a support role? obviously with the taunting and everything on both shoves and the taunt ability... but I guess that yeah I see what you're saying. How much less killable does this make us ogryns though? with this new information in mind
@@brettgu3828 To a degree? I think it depends heavily on playstyle, yes, but also just info being mangled over and over and over with few people checking it out in game and of course, let's be honest - FS absolutely does NOT do a good job explaining what shit does. Their descriptions leave a lot to be desired. You will not read anywhere that the Toughness Regen perks also reduce the Coherency triggering delays, but it's there, and isn't small either. It's not without fault and video points them out well; The most crucial one tbh is the fact it's COHERENCY. If you don't have buddies around, it does nothing. Making this pick utter trash in solos/duos - absolutely useless. But in your regular run, with a group that isn't made of speedrunning knife-zealots, it does trigger - a LOT. 2000-3000 Toughness regain just from Coherency in your average match (with the perks ofc). I thing big misunderstanding also lies in not getting how the Slot System works. It's not merely 'being close to enemies'. They have to actively get set into the slot. You can stand next to a bunch of enemies and still have coherency online, if they are currently attached to your buddy slots, for example. In fact, sometimes you can get attacked by a melee enemy occupying your slot, and RIGHT after they attack you once - they suddenly deslot. And your coherency kicks in. There are countless in-game moments where enemies don't occupy a slot beside being close by - running to a friend, switching posture (shooters), ranged enemies don't occupy a slot until they turn to their melee stance... You can experiment with bots and spawner in Grinder to see the situations and scenarios to see it kick off even in the midst of enemies.
I think the Feel No Pain hits breakpoints if you take the toughness generated on hit\kill blessing on your weapons. Also it rewards getting into a good cadence with your: Heavy -> Light -> Heavy -> Light, vanguard elentless attack chains. I usually get into the rhythm with a Long Press -> Triple tap on the mouse. Also works well with the Zealot hammer. You can wade into a mob smacking everything around and then shrug off the slap from a bruiser that slips in behind you, without taking damage.
I tried out wizard class and man the ability to just go around a pick up nearly all the skills and flexibility is quite refreshing compared to ogyrn the class that gets no love but gives the most love
I love this idea. I don't think anyone but the Bull Rush Ogryn can easily escape when being backed into a corner by Bulwarks. This CC type Ogryn will be the type that you want to throw into a small room and have him jumble everyone up! Sadly, Fatshark does not play Ogryn... or their game...
I wish they also make it so Heavy Hitter keystone actually gives you the amount of stack per number of hits your heavy attack actually lands. It's so dumb that it only gives you 1 stack per Heavy Attack Hit regardless of the amount of enemy it actually lands. Like the time it takes you to get 5 stack vs the amount of time it takes for the stack duration to end is short as hell. At least make it so not the whole 5 stack is gone after a certain 7.5s.
It would feel great to have almost 2 ultimates on the most boring class imo! I like the this keystone being pro-active, it feels better when you do something and get reward instead of getting reward passive. I like this keystone doesn't give any damage besides attack speed, but I would make invunerability perk last for only 2-3 seconds to block 1 important hit from dangerous enemy or make the same CD like on until death.
I'd rework it something similar to Ironbreaker, but put some spin on it like... completely negate the next health damaging attack after something like 10 elite or specialist kills, stacks up to 3 times left: while the buff is active, block cost reduction, decreases stamina regen delay right: Biggest, Toughest, Meanest!: Ogryn kills being worth 2 or 3 stacks, and the final one being: Protect the Lil'uns!: an ally can avoid a mortal wound if you have all three stacks, but consumes all of them
I think warp charges can use some changes. The two big issues for me are the amount of augments the keystone has and how innately the warp charges are consumed on ability use (I would like this to be an optional augment instead).
I think looking over vet's marksman's focus may be worth talking about, and how it encourages bad play styles, and benefits machine guns more over the implied snipers that it was meant for
Feel no pain’s toughness regen on 0 stacks used to be nice, current state it would only make sense to take the keystone if it was more forgiving for removing stacks. Idk if the change of damage while blocking with shields still removes stacks of it but that single change made oygrn basically the only class with useless keystones. Which sucks because oygrn’s should be the most fun to play.
as a psyker main i have a few bones to pick. we already know the bad nodes, crystalline will, unlucky for some, penetration of the soul. there is no reason to drive those further into the ground. so instead, i want to talk about two nodes specifically, anticipation and souldrinker. going for anticipation first, it sounds like a nice buff on paper but is rather lackluster in practice. outside of the one extra dodge, the increased duration more or less maths out to less then a second. in truth, it take a 0.2S invulnerability and makes it a 0.3S. wow, i feel so safe. so glad i picked it over empathic evasion which will make me completely invulnerable to range on crits (sarcasm included in this statement). and then there is souldrinker. the actual node it self is... actually not that bad. killing enemies with soulblaze restoring both toughness and giving more crits is awesome. the problem? its on the wrong side of the tree. both perilous combustion and wildfire are on the left side, meanwhile souldrinker is over on the right. i feel they could fix it with a little movement on the tree. if they really want to keep the nodes where they are they could move perilous assault to the other side and rearrange nodes since i always felt perilous assault was better for gunpsyker, even if its not really that good. BONUS: surety of arms still giving peril when above the 75% threshold. if i cant benefit from it, why is it hurting me?
Eh, still kinda iffy on the rework suggested here, it's quite redundant with Taunt. I feel like the more simple answer would be to bring back the Ironbreaker's passive from VM2 with some of the lvl 25 talents associated with it, such as a choice between an AOE stagger or attack buff on proc with the third side node being for cooldown reduction to the auto-block
It's not automatic. You have to wait for the dog to bite you 10 times! By that point, the enemy is already crowding around you. At worst, your team8s save you, nulling the point of Pained Outburst.
@nodosa994 Not when you quickmatch into a hunting grounds where everyone is already dead. Most enemies don't attack you while pounced, and having this is better than nothing in that scenario if you want to save it.
@@bluelense7 With so much Stamina, dog pounce should not be an issue unless you have the Power Maul. And Dogs knock other dogs If you need a talent that needs you to take 10 bites before knocking it off, then I suggest a better team. Save that extra talent point. Ogryn already has a hard time keeping up.
I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure the Zealot invulnerability only stops you from going down if you would lose your last 1 health. It doesn't prevent you from losing health and toughness, those will still drop to 1 and 0 as normal. Your proposed skill could work differently, of course, and lock in your values. I just mention this because you likened "Try Harder" to Zealot invulnerability.
I use to run FNP because I felt when playing that it helped with not taking so much damage, but looking back I just kept my toughness constantly topped off which is why I took no damage or a bit of chip. Will have to swap keystones Edit: Maybe if they made it where FNP was just a 20% damage reduction, or 10% to both toughness and health so effectively a 20%. Or even a fat toughness and health boost of 25% to both
You don't really need anything more than heavy attack toughness, bleed on heavy, and DR per bleeding target. Spam your secondary's melee on rumbler or kickback and pull out a pickaxe for carapace.
Unfortunately I think that how fatshark wanted this keystone to play out. Feel No pain used to only lose stacks if you took. Health damage but they nerfed it to lose stacks on and damage taken to toughness or health.
I’d like to see your ideas to fix psyker blitzes ideas to make each more useful to a full build. You did a general video but could make one specifically for blitzes.
I admit it, I fell for all the youtubers and posters claimimg that Feel no pain was the best. I guess that was past its' due date. I'll change back to the build I already had, which is about identical to the one you recommend as the good build. :) At least until FS fixes the keystone. I've felt the new build with FNP keystone was surprisingly weaker than my previous one so I might have swapped back regardless, this video makes it obvious why that is though.
You make a good case against FNP. It had me fooled. I guess heavy hitter is the only good one then eh? Your idea about the new keystone is cool, but I think 50 stacks is way too many. What if i had 'makin me mad' without 'thats my secrit'? I'd need to get hit 25 times or block 50 times before i got anything out of it? That seems like way too much. I suggest reducing it to just 10 stacks needed, so I only need to do 10 blocks or get hit 5 times. Change 'thats my secrit' to gain 1 stack every 5 seconds to balance it out.
I sent 3 characters to auric damnation before creating an ogryn and... the ogryn skill tree is just depressing, I often saw myself with avaiable points and absolutely nothing that i wanted to get, theres some weird dmg stuff both melee and ranged but besides that theres nothing else. Theres so litttle focus on tank/support/stagger, just why in the flying fk are ogryns forced to build dmg hybrid/full dmg, getting to full build changes so little it doesnt even matter.
hell no they havent done anything, those people are insane or reading the ogrynomicon as gospel, which recommends this on some builds and is totally outdated
I like the direction of your proposed redesign but think it's not quite fully thought through or tuned. In the proposed redesign too many aggravation stacks are needed to activate the ability and the passively generating aggravation stacks is WAY too necessary in order to actually generate sufficient stacks. I don't know about you, but even as a crowd controling ogryn I'm not blocking very often or taking hits that often. If I don't have the passive generation, I honestly might only get sufficient stacks after several minutes of play. A combination of attacks and pushes tends to be mostly sufficient for crowd controlling a horde in normal play. As such, in addition to tweaking the number of stacks added by taking hits or blocking hits, I think you'd want to also add in Pushing as a way to generate stacks. Pushes are a normal part of crowd control and higher in the talent tree you can get the super push, so you're leaning in to that theme a bit more there.
Sounds okay but i would keep it to melee weapon special only. Even there its kinda iffy activation imo There are some special attacks that are worth using like on the Kickback with Pierce blessing and Can Opener on the Rippers wich i use if im not using Pickaxe. What about Paul special? I know the power maul is trash but that relies entirely on special attack activation. The knife uppercut special is also decent as it interrupts crushers. Folding shovel special is also good. You see there are a lot of instances where having this on special activate is kinda bad
@@MisterEtide That sounds better yes, only time i really use push on Ogryn is against a pack of Ragers since the heavy attacks already have so much stagger on everything else 🤔
I agree FNP needs buff. But I don't agree your idea regarding the "Weapon Special" part. You are basically giving Orgyn a SECOND ability with 50 seconds cooldown. IMO, keystone should be passively activated.
I couldnt think of a way to activate it without it being frustrating to happen at an actually useful time. Like if it requires being hit but enemies wont hit you or you waste the whole effect by getting hit with a stray bullet. I like the idea of the knockback the the ability has with its augment, but hate the activation requirement.
Why is it that the rock isnt in the middle but the lunch box is? All the other things that are variants of the base abilities are on the left side? But not the lunch box? It doesnt make sense to me!
i could be wrong about this but wasnt it op once before? havent used my taunt big man in sometime now cuz the pickaxe/heavy hitter is so strong and my gun ogryn getting that "new" gun next week but i remember it being so good with the shield
I am kinda curious how people want to change martyrdom. It's easily my favorite zealot capstone right now and by far the build with the most successful missions. Can someone explain what's wrong with it? Only thing I can think of it is being useless if you're at full health or a hindrance to your team if you're bad at avoiding hits and you play too risky and get yourself killed. I usually only play at heresy and damnation difficulties so is it just a problem that only really crops up in maelstrom?
1. you cant get all max stacks. You can get up to 6 and thats it. Thats the max you're gonna get (it should be 7 btw). In order to reach 6 stacks you need 3 wound curious. I dont need to explain why this is awful. You have no stamina and no toughness. 2. It just does not work. There is toughness damage bleedthrough, meaning 1 rager hitting you 2 times is gonna down you. 1 fire puddle is going to down you, barrels and flamer tanks are gonna down you instantly. 3. Holy revenant and the other talent that regens your hp are just not good in general, but they are mandatory for martyrdom. They dont help you in any way shape or form they just prevent you from getting downed when you play bad. OR, in martyrs case, they prevent you from going down for 5 seconds, then you go down because you have no stamina and can't move 4. This game is NOT built around taking hp damage. You can tank whatever you want with toughness but not with hp. As soon as that toughness goes down, you go down I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe the only build you find success with on zealot is martyrdom. If you tried any of the other keystones your damage would be quadrupled
edit: I ended up writing a whole essay cause I'm just a nerd like that and TH-cam wouldn't let me post it cause it was too long. Had to split it into two posts. Sorry in advance for however long you spend reading it, I just really like talking about game balance! :D @@wizard_4194 Heya so I'm gonna respond to each number individually just cause I like the organization and it'll help me not go off on like seven tangents and forget what I was saying from being hopped up on caffeine. Thank ya for answering my question, always nice to get someone else's thoughts on the matter! Also, I'm gonna apologize ahead of time, this is a looooooooooong comment. I'm a budding game developer with a borderline obsession for talking about mechanics and balancing that can bore people to sleep so I totally understand if you don't want to read the whole thing. Just please say if you did or didn't so I don't get confused if you respond with a point I covered. If you do read through it then you are now my favorite person on the internet :D Though before I get into it, I do want to bring up that I don't play martyr as a 1 health hero. That's waaaaay too risky for my taste. I'll agree with you that people who play like that tend to be a detriment to the team unless they're literally the god emperor himself. And he hasn't gotten up from his throne so anyone who thinks they're all that are obviously heretics. And my zealot Noda Traytor is absolutely not a traitor to the throne. 1. Okay so yeah you're absolutely right on that one. I just completely forgot about that dumb mechanic. Hopefully large fish decides to do something about that cause it seems like something that shouldn't be a difficult fix. Though knowing them, it won't be patched until sometime in 2030 right alongside giving brainburst the buff it needs. RIP my favorite psyker ability. In terms of stamina and toughness though I don't typically have much problem with them. I've got toughness regen speed on all my curious and stamina regen on 2 of them and I'm honestly debating trying to fit something else in place of the toughness regen speed. Between regaining melee through killing enemies with melee and the instant regen of FotF, the only times I usually run out are when I'm at high health and NOT one-shotting everything weaker than a crusher. In which case, the chip damage I take while getting melee toughness regen just helps me along. I also just don't block much unless it's to push attack so that might be part of it. Idk about other weapons, but the only weapon I use with this build is the orestes mk 4 chainaxe. Push attack into heavy chain typically gives enough pushback to stun anything I've pushed long enough to get the stamina I spent back. And again, I play with the "best defense is a good offense" mindset when running martyrdom. 2. So it CAN work, but it's very dependent on your skill and also your mindset. Bear with me here. With martyrdom, you have to look at your health as a resource. Idk if you've played it but it's worth a shot using it as an example here; think of playing black in Magic the Gathering. If you never get hit and everything else is dead, then the only point of health that matters is your last. Granted yes, Darktide does have toughness bleedthrough so you absolutely shouldn't go to pixel health, but the general point is still there. Bleedthrough is a threat yes, but if you properly manage your health, pick your targets, have a good instinct of when and where to dodge, and know when to back up, it's not as bad as you'd think. So there are four main threats here that you want to keep in mind and I'll go through them each. 2.a: Ragers. So these guys can be painful if they catch you off guard. But with the build I have right now, they're pushovers. My weapon of choice- the Orestes Mk IV chain axe- stuns them with uncharged light attacks, though exactly when and how can be a bit buggy. Sometimes they'll take a few steps and then get stunned, sometimes they'll ignore the first hit and then get stunned as it finishes, sometimes they get off one swing before getting stunned, and sometimes they get stunned as soon as you poke em. No clue why there's such a variation in timing but I'm assuming it's a combination of code jank and a bit of client/server desync. Obese selachimorpha aren't exactly known for having perfect bug-free games and servers. But either way, ragers typically aren't a problem. If your martyr stacks and weapon damage-increasing blessing stacks don't kill them in one uncharged light headshot, then a second will do the trick. And the stun lasts long enough that you can almost permanently stunlock two ragers at once. 2.b: Crushers. And maulers, but they fall within the same boat here. The lower your health, the more these guys look like big piles of meat to be tenderized. I haven't gotten down the exact numbers, but I believe at around 2 bars you can one-shot a crusher with a powered chainaxe headshot if they're alone, or 2-3 shot them with uncharged lights to the head if there's other threats with them. I mean you can one shot them at higher health with the charged attack, but I'm mainly looking at the uncharged light since it's a lot less risky. I also don't know if it's crits or just raw damage that gives me that damage threshold, again I haven't gone in the meat grinder to get exact numbers. It's all just a good instinct/feel at this point with how much I've played my martyr build. Maulers, being essentially crushers with less health, are just as easy to take down. 2.c: Fire and barrels. Okay so barrels aren't really a problem unless you get very chaotic trigger-happy teammates. In that case, just try and avoid being near the barrels and pray to Big E that your teammates aren't heretics doing it out of malicious intent. Not much you can do about that. I *think* regular barrel explosions chunk off roughly 2 bars of martyr health, so it's just a game of being careful. But with fire barrels, there's a trick that lets you move through their fire without taking ANY damage. Just jump. Seriously, if you spam jump you can pretty much sit inside of a fire barrel's burning without taking ANY damage. Very good for distracting enemies. Or if you want low health quick, they can be used to safely lower your health for martyr stacks. Just don't be stupid about it. For flamers, I honestly haven't played much with their new exploding canisters so I can't really say much about that other than treat em like barrels and pop them from a distance with your handy Zarona six-shooter. I don't know how much damage they do but I'd imagine it's comparable to a barrel explosion. Bombers have a similar deal to flamer fire. Tox bombers are honestly better since you can farm corruption off of them, but it's a bit too risky for my taste to go below 4 wounds worth of corruption. But I mean martyr zealots treat bombers as any other zealots. Don't stand in the fire. Simple as. 2.d: Bosses. Okay so I'm not the greatest at fighting bosses. If you're low health, don't be stupid and rush them without a plan. Bosses are pretty much the only things I actively block. Learn their pattern and you can sneak in hits, but tbh I don't know their patterns well so I don't have much advice here other than play with your team and try not to become a chew toy for a hungry beast of nurgle or chaos spawn.
3. Yeah I won't deny that they're pretty much mandatory for martyr. But honestly I think if martyr and blazing piety switched sides, it wouldn't be as much of an issue. The way the tree is spaced out makes it look like martyr is supposed to sync well with the middle tree and it reaaaaaally does not do that at all. And imo the infectious zeal in the blazing piety tree fits better with the team-focused middle tree better. But that's another tangent that I won't go on any further here. So yes, those perks are mandatory. But detrimental? No, I wouldn't say that. I'm not a god at the game so I have had to rely on until death and holy revenant before, but it's not as bad as you think. HR gives healing equal to 3 times the melee damage you deal (capped at 25% of your max HP), and martyrdom is ENTIRELY focused on high melee damage. 5 seconds of invincibility at 1 HP means you're getting TONS of melee damage. So much damage and 3x the healing means I've actually healed to the 25% cap from taking down a small group of wandering enemies. It's perfect synergy. It's also good if you mess up and trigger it during a boss fight too. Again invincibility at max stacks (yes I know, 6 max not 7 cause FS has the counting abilities of an ogryn) plus healing from all the damage you dealt means you can deal a surprising amount of damage. And as long as you remember to start backing off once the timer is about to end, you can survive what you otherwise shouldn't have if you weren't running those perks. And again, you're bringing up low stamina so I'm gonna bring up the invincibility and crazy damage. If you aren't able to significantly thin or even completely destroy whatever knocked you into revenant then unless it's gunners across the map with no path to reach them, you probably misplayed. Even healing from gun damage probably wouldn't give you too much. But hey, that just happens sometimes. Can't control every variable and hindsight is 20/20. Just gotta learn from your mistakes and improve. 4. Okay so yes, you don't want to delete your health bar. But even with martyr you're not really supposed to let yourself get hit down to 1 HP. You don't ONLY get its effects at low health, you get it in stages as your health goes down. Treating it as such either from people not playing with it or from people who actually DO use it but don't understand how to best use it is just bad. You gotta read the perk to utilize it effectively. Stacking curios and perks, you get a total of 7 small wounds. Every wound lost gives you (assuming you fully specced into martyr) +8% melee damage, +4% melee attack speed, and +6.5% toughness damage reduction. Even at a moderate 3 lost wounds, you're dealing a combined +24% melee damage at a +12% speed increase while taking 19% less damage to toughness. That's a BIG increase to base stats at a very reasonable health percent of around 55%. TDR means you take less toughness damage while the increased melee damage means you're killing things faster to get those smaller chunks of toughness you lost back. Not a point that you brought up, but probably something most people who don't like martyr worry about and something I do want to talk about. Proper health percentage. When playing martyr, I typically shoot for having between 1.5 and 2.5 bars of health. That gives me just enough health to make a mistake or two and not get punished too bad while giving me plenty of martyr stacks. When I know I'm about to encounter a boss, I'll heal up to about half to have a bigger safety net. If I find one, I usually prefer to carry around a med stim as well. Sure the combat stim would be better for damage, but again the med stim has a good safety net. And before you say anything- no I don't always save it for myself. I'll heal a teammate who's about to die from wounds since two people are always better than one. Playing martyrdom is all a game of managing resources and optimization to squeeze out the most damage without going overboard, which I think is why it's my favorite. Alright, I'm running out of steam here, but hopefully some of the info above helped you or whoever else might be reading get a little insight either into my thoughts on martyrdom or at the very least got you to learn something new. Like that barrel trick! That's one of my favorite pieces of obscure techs. But yeah, martyr is my favorite zealot build. I probably just worded my comment on my success with martyr weird but no it's not the only build I've had success with. My first ever zealot build and the one that got me hooked on playing them was a pure melee crit build with the heavy evis. I still love that build, but I just genuinely prefer my martyr build more. If you still don't believe me, I'd be more than happy to make a showcase and post commentary video of a damnation run with my martyr build so you can see my thought process with the game as context. I've been wanting to learn how to do stuff like that so it'd be a perfect excuse for me to jump in. But that's all I got, have fun in game and praise the emperor fellow guardians!
@@Vynalith its still not enough reward for the fact that, yes, you in fact DO have to play with 1 wound worth of hp to get every benefit from martyrdom. You could get 1 curio with stamina but at that point why run the fuckin keystone. Just run any of the other 2. The damage compared to the other 2 is not that big, I for one have done miles as zealot by using momentum. Its just simply better. Middle tree for zealot also doesn't really work with anything in the game. As it stands its awful. Now, is martyrdom fun? Yes, easily my favourite way to play zealot (shocker I know lol), but its just weird. It really deserves more love.
@@wizard_4194 I wouldn't say 1hp gives every benefit but rather gives the highest amount of benefit. You still get all the benefits of increased damage, attack speed, and TDR with only one bar missing, just not as much as you would if you had six bars missing. But I get what you mean. Hopefully whenever FS gets around to fixing stuff they don't butcher whatever buff or rework it'd get since it's honestly the biggest reason why I play zealot. So what's your secret to getting momentum working well for you? I've tried making it work with a build or two and it just never clicked for me. It wasn't BAD, but I just didn't feel any noticeable power boost or effect like I have with the other two keystones. Is it just a playstyle thing? Like do I have to play zealot differently with momentum than I do with the others where the goal is to basically get stuck in and cleave through anything in my way?
The talent's name is "Feel No Pain", why just don't make an Ogryn invincible? Or even better, make him uninterruptible while charging Heavy Melee Attack!
The state of Ogryn is pretty sad tbh. Lack of weapon variety, laughable keystones, constantly getting nerfed one way or another while other stronger classes dont get touched... Like come one Fatshark, no surprises nobody wants to play Ogryn nowadays while you can choose a zealot and have both, more fun and better everything. I guess being the dumb pet of the team is the only thing thats left for this class....
Great work Mr. E, another great video! I will say: I feel like you are overly harsh at times which leads to you saying a talent is universally bad but missing out on the scenario's where it is good. But in general it's an evaluation that makes sense with testing to prove the point. I think I would do a redesign of this differently, but I really like some of your ideas, like the invulnerability. I should go take a look at the Burst-Limited Override video... 🤔
I am overly harsh because 1) i am putting on a bit of a performance to entertain an audience, and 2) i actually do get kinda irritated with people believing things are good without evidence, and i really want to draw peoples attention to the issues. Go check out the BLO video, i think the fixed version of that skill would be awesome!
I dont think keystones should have active abilities. Also this doesn't really make you any tankier, its just a bad vet shout. I'd rather just see the keystone provide a base amount of health and toughness damage reduction of 20%, then blocking or taking damage increases your stacks. Which would provide up to 50% damage reduction at max, these decay overtime. Then a roar/pained outburst at max stacks, which pushes back enemies and buffs your team.
@@MisterEtide I don’t think we are playing the same game. I have over 2.5k hours in this game and 1k of those hours is ogryn and I can confidently say that with the right set up from your talents to weapon choice it is not bad and I have scoreboards and gameplay to prove otherwise. I’m not gonna go in depth cause that’ll be a lot to write and I’m too lazy to persuade you. I understand what you’re saying with your points however anything can look mediocre when you just stand there and take hits saying keystone bad. Theirs a reason why the ogryn has had so many nerfs
@@yaboirichard591 then dont coment at all if u cant provide proof of your claims its empty yapping at this point. Not goona go in depth but writes a useles in depth coment braging how many hours u have played on ogryn, clasic . E man at least shows how the ability works and what it does......
A lot of the options in game don't even work the way they're intended
Loner doesn't even give the main benefit it is built towards since coherency toughness deactivates when fighting enemies which means that Loner is only useful for preventing the AI from spawning disablers that hunt down far away players
Veteran's focus is meant to be a sniping keystone but only really works when full autoing into hordes
Warp charges is really confused since it tries too be like the old system that rewarded holding onto as many as you could but also removes all of them on using your ult
Loner does nothing to prevent special spawns. People on reddit who think they know what they're talking about love to parrot this.
Coherency has nothing to do with special spawns it's based on distance from your teammates.
I love Fatshark but the amount of bugs and unintended "features" in this game after two years of release really grinds my gear.
@@Sir_Laks Loner (and to so some extent a lot of other auras in this game) is literally whatever. The only reason you'd take loner is if you're planning to use stealth and don't want to spend a bunch of points on stupid shit.
You can path all the way to the left after taking blades of faith and grab benediction but those talent points can be spent on something mutch more valuable than a static 15% toughness DR.
So yeah, basically auras are dumb and people who bend backwards to include a specific aura in every build even when it's not cost efficient to do so are quite silly and should probably not do that
@@Sir_Laksone thing for loner: when you go stealth, enemies lose their slots around you, so you can regen toughness in those couple seconds and also disengage. Its an extremely unoptimal build cos youd need all coherency regen perks on curios and the talent AND its gimped the more toughness you have total.
But you can play it solo like a rat and go in and out of stealth to regen more toughness than the stealth node itself. Even then there are better builds to regen toughness in combat.
The fact that ogryn tanks have comparatively tiny DR next to Vets is so ridiculous lol
Vet can one-tap crushers with 1 power sword strike, snipe through hordes with plasma, destroy bulwarks with bolters/nades AND gets insane toughness DR and ranged toughness replenishment. Then there is also Voice or Command that can grant you golden toughness in 1 press of a button on a short CD.
Zealot and Psyker can do all other kinds of crazy crap. Both are speed demons with toughness replenishment and insane damage and support options.
And Ogryn gets a FNP nerf, because devs nowadays HATE passive tankiness.
@@Poppenheimer69Ogryn has been nerfed a lot in general, while the other more played and stronger classes don't get touched and even receive buffs from time to time. Fatshark likes treating us like the shitty pet we are it seems, and I'm pretty tired already. Not to mention how our lack of weapon variety is killing my overall enjoyment as well. Guess I'll turn into a zealot main sooner or later, especially considering that cool af 2h power sword in the horizon.
Hmm can you explain this? That doesn't seem correct. Like with numbers.
To be fair, ogyrn with the class's potential stagger strength makes him basically invincible if you play so, his damage reduction is just a bonus after
I find it baffling that Fatshark decided to make you not regen coherency toughness when enemies are nearby. I'm glad I tested and discovered that very early, never wasted my time with these kinds of toughness regens.
yeah its so weird... like, one mechanic or the other, either we dont regenerate with enemies nearby OR we only regenerate in coherency. Both is stupid
Yeah, SUPER strange. It's basically just a mechanic for under leveled players to be able to get their toughness back in the lower difficulties where there's not very many enemy spawns . . . but then why are there keystones that are wasted on this mechanic that is useless in mid/high difficulties lmao makes no sense.
wait what?? omg that makes it mega useless. didn't realize it was that bad.
After over 700 hours I've only just learnt this from this video. I just assumed coherency gave toughness when near teammates period. I didn't know about the ranged damage blocking it and I didn't know it was blocked based on enemy proximity. Now I know it basically just works like anti-temp health regenerating toughness OUT of combat. I don't know if this is conveyed in the game or not, but I feel like an idiot now. Changing my builds is going to make the game way easier now that I'm not dumping it into this.
@@hellfeesh I'm pretty sure it's never actually mentioned ANYWHERE in game. I found out by pure accident when I was testing other sources of toughness regen.
Why does Ogryn have to decide between tanking and melee damage when Zealot gets both in pretty much every tree?
Ogryn already does get both just going left tree. FNP is somewhat redundant, melee Ogryn already don't really die except to Trappers, Hounds or like 6 Crushers. The only difference FNP makes is you can choose to take that one node that pushes Hounds off you.
Ogryn still has it's hidden iconic 20% total Damage Reduction, baseline.
@@FireAntat the higher difficulties you don’t really notice it. Especially bc zealot is getting like 70% toughness damage resist for criting and martyrdom. Veteran is getting gold toughness with some ridiculous amount of toughness damage resist from iron will. Psyker, has scriers gaze. Ogryn is a worse tank, it’s why I switched to zealot.
Another iteration would be to make the keystone lean more towards Tank and Defensive Support roles.
*Keystone - Feel No Pain* - Grants 1% Damage Resistance (Both Health and Toughness) per Stack, gain 1 Stack per enemy Pushed, Suppressed, or Blocked, and 3 Stacks upon taking Health Damage.
While at 25 Stacks, your Coherency Toughness Regeneration can only be interrupted by taking Health damage.
Stacks last 10 seconds.
*Modifier 1 - Strongest!* - Gain 1% Impact Bonus per Stack of *Feel No Pain* .
While *Feel No Pain* is at 25 Stacks, your next Special Attack on Monstrocities will spend all Stacks to Stagger them.
*Modifier 2 - Pained Outburst* - Whenever you are Disabled or your Health drops below a Wound, *Feel No Pain* will spend 25 Stacks if possible to push back enemies and replenish 25% Toughness.
*Modifier 3 - Protect the Lil' Uns!* - While at 25 Stacks, Allies in Coherency gain 50% of the Damage Resistance granted by *Feel No Pain* .
Whenever an Ally is Knocked Down or Disabled, gain 25 Stacks.
---
Doesnt have the same flair as adding a new ability to the Ogryn, but it should help players personify the Shieldgryn playstyle better.
thank you for this video being so clear and concise, i've been playing ogryn since the beta and never realized a lot of these things, hopefully i can be even mightier going forward
The fact you get 10% toughness DR and 15% DR while heavy attacking just for going down the left side just makes the that FNP hilariously bad
Some of the nodes you have to take to get there are also atrociously bad.
@@MyRedHulk the CDR and movement speed + suppression/stun immunity on ult is good but those last 2 nodes may as well not exist lol
It's even worse if you use it with a "tank" melee - Slab Shield. You can become almost invulnerable when blocking, so you only really receive damage when attacking or running without defending yourself AT ALL. Only worthwhile attacks are the heavy ones, so you basically always receive benefits from the left path, without having to bother with stack upkeep of FNP or playing too defensively.
FNP currently only really shines for defensive Stubber ogryns.
You can get all that and still get FNP if you really want to.
That tends to be overkill though.
That's My Secret, S'ah is the perfect name for that talent. It might even feel a little essential since it puts the Roar on a 50 second cooldown if you're not stopping to grind it out. And the process of grinding it out sounds really slow if you're not a Taunt Ogryn.
Yeah it opens it up to be more usable by the other abilities. I think keystones should be more interesting than they are currently and have different synergies with their classes abilities, it would be so cool to have extra distinction between builds like that.
I'm happy to see people re-thinking some of these stinker nodes/capstones on Ogryn. That said - blocking just isn't something your doing all that often - it's filler between heavy hits/dodging and is pretty passive. What if instead you got a benefit for pushing/blocking. Pushing you do a fair bit more often as it can give you and your team space. What if instead we gained some kind of limited invuln or DR based upon staggering enemies then tacked on a node that gave your team bonus damage to staggered enemies? I like the idea of your big shout knocking everyone down so maybe add that as a node that makes your say 10th push a shout instead that knocks everything down or triggers on something else like you suggested.
Something that stacks on stagger was my original idea, but we already have the extra strong push node, and i wanted to keep in the vein of encouraging enemies to attack or at least getting benefits from stray hits (which ogryns are a huge recipient of). Stagger is a strong mechanic already, but there arent any abilities that synergize with taunting enemies to hit your block, so i wanted to make something for that.
Maybe, but there needs to be more benefit to actually block in this game, and with Slab Shield, the Ogryn can block with practically no risk. Though 50 is way too many without that node tax he designed, so maybe 20. I mean unless you purposely stack Stamina anyway 20 will require you to have your block broken at least twice. Then maybe he can increase the time for the tax from 1s to 2s so it's not procing every 20, not that I personally think that'd be an issue.
@@MisterEtide I see your vision for this and like your idea of a big aoe knockdown - I just worry that even then the tree would be missing the damage meta that seems to be the big chase. Furthermore as you repeatedly stated taking hits is bad - blocking is slightly better but still pretty niche as I'm typically only blocking shooters, while in movement or dodging back after a hit. Maybe some kind of enrage mechanic where instead of hitting the floor you have a number of seconds to kill everything around you and gain back some/most/all of the health you lost. This would certainly empower you to get stuck in and care less about taking some bad hits.
A lot of the Ogryn weapons have a pretty strong Push\Attack combo. The Shield does a strong overhead smash that'll one shot elites. And the pick axes do a nice sweep attack that is great for snagging dogs and sweeping aside the mob sitting in your slots.
You know i love ogryn, the aggressive playstyle itches that little aggressive goblin in my brain.
But i certainly would like more build options. I dont much like the stubbers, so heavy hitter is it really, and thats unfortunate.
This idea isn't bad. I think they could just give Ogryn the ironbreaker passive of a free melee hit every 20 seconds and its modifiers
I dont think that'd be as good in Darktide as it is in Vermintide due to how toughness works, especially on Ogryn. If youre at full toughness and take a hit, if that hit's damage doesnt exceed your max toughness then you won't take any health damage from the hit because your 100% toughness will absorb 100% of that damage. Ogryns regen toughness like craaaazy cause of the heavy attack perks, which means Ogryn in majority of scenarios can reliably tank individual hits regularly. For as long as hes hitting something anyways, which you should be doing if something else is hitting you.
If they really wanted something like Ironbreaker's passive, i would make it so that if Ogryn's toughness breaks, he gets a 1 second grace period where he takes no damage. Idk what the cooldown would be.
@@armintor2826 staying at full toughness as the ogryn is not an easy task lol any range enemy can hit you at any time. If you are locked in melee and some range trash hits you then you are vulnerable till you go back to full toughness (not hard to do) but the window of gettin some damage pierce your HP is possible.
@@rodrigolopezmaya5974 i just dont know if waiting 20 seconds to stop 4 points of damage that i couldve avoided by dodging is worth a perk point
@@armintor2826 That is a good point to bring up. How about we have it trigger instead on health damage taken so it prevents the toughness bleed-through along with giving .5 or 1 second invulnerable period as well to regain lost toughness.
I used to play ogryn a lot and watched this thinking “wait I used to really like this node” then I remembered that was when I’d play on difficulty 4 and had no clue how the game worked. Also dang it has some misleading language.
Thanks for this, i think i want to build an Ogrin next and i appreciate your channel’s efforts and suggestions.
Knowing what works and why is really helpful.
Honestly I've always been surprised they didn't make Feel No Pain work like Iron Breaker Bardin's Gromrl Armor in Vermintide 2; I like your ideas better then just straight porting that over, but either would be way better then what we have now
Slap and upper cut used to be better back when it could stagger Monsters, now at best it's good for staggering a single Rager.
But more importantly, 50 Blocks is a lot, that's enough to break even a Stamina Stacking Ogryn twice, or non-stacking 7 times. Not to mention your Timer Node becomes yet another tax. Personally, at the very least I'd drop the Block req down to 20 Blocks and double the Timer to 2s if you think a knock down every 20s is too much, even if Voice of Command is only 30s.
Yea, I miss the days of the Shovel's Super Punch that could stun lock the Chaos Spawn with uppercuts to its tiny little head.
New PS5 player here... OK I didn't really understand the hype until I played and beat my 1st Malice level match, this game is INSANE! 10/10 Banger... Just wanted to throw that in... I love how you guys are breaking it down to keystones, I didn't even know what these wee a couple days ago lol.
been using feel no pain for to long with not knowing this, thank you.
back to heavy hitter. got luck getting to 10k subs. plus 1 here
Used it for the penance and kept using it for a while after until I realized how backwards it was. Your reward for not taking damage is taking less damage... if you just went full heavy hitter ogryn and kept hitting things, you CAN'T take damage
I really like the kind of re-works that give the class a way to use their abilities differently. This makes a so-far inert and passive Keystone into something interesting you can actively use and use your understanding of the ability to time it for great effect. I also love your naming convention there (like in the Burst Limiter Override video).
This keystone needs a rework but I think you went a little hard on the paint with how you expose the total hits to activate pained outburst to hits to get downed. In a real situation you are getting hitted while you also hit&kill enemies so that might even some odds to get some Toughness back? I would love if this skill gives you a dual stack gameplay modifier you gain stacks of You makin me mad that gives you attack speed while you lose stacks of feel no pain
I thought this as well. I don't think it undercuts his broader point, but it's either a bit shortsighted or disingenuous to say that you'll be dead before your stacks deplete based on standing in place and taking hits. He just got done demonstrating the Ogryn's capacity to refill their toughness using heavy swings a couple minutes ago. A much much more realistic scenario is that a player would be trading hits with enemies while also killing at least some of them, meaning it's possible if not likely that someone would have a lot of health and toughness left even once ten stacks have depleted. I know personally that most melee hits I take don't matter because they're infrequent enough that usually I'll have topped back off before the next one, and I'm talking about on other classes that don't gain 20% toughness each time they swing their weapon.
That said, even a scenario where you've lost your stacks but have max or near max health/toughness still has its own problems with FNP anyway, which he notes. Because the "damage reduction" is actually toughness damage reduction, now you've got a big ol' pool of toughness (or at a minimum 20% of it from Pained Outburst) and none of your keystone's benefit to go along with it. But maybe that's the intent by FS behind providing toughness damage reduction that can be beat out of you- that if you're only able to stay on your feet with that extra TDR, you'll still gradually start losing ground as it disappears.
Anyway, I agree with the broader points in the video. This was just something that stood out to me as well.
Thanks for making Ogryn content!
Easy fix to this keystone is to just revert the nerfs they made to it
I’d want a breakdown of infiltrate. It just feels like such a confused ability with all its modifiers and fatshark didn’t know what to do with it so gave it a bunch of half assed modification options that each aren’t really too game changing.
Some cool ideas here! I love the keystones that you actively engage with in the game like Disrupt Destiny or Weapons Specialist, and ogryn sorely needs more engaging builds.
your opinions change faster than i change mains mr. e
Every time i change them i get to make a new set of videos
I wonder what opinion i had in the past on this
Wow. I knew that talent was bad but I had no idea it straight up lies to you about toughness replenishment when it really means coherency regen. Thanks for the enlightenment once again sah!
My only concern would be that the Roar and the Invulnerability have a slight bit of anti-synergy. In that, if you knock everyone down then you lose out on soem of the value of the Invulnerability becauze they aren't attacking you anyway.
That said, it gives you Invulnerability to ranged attacks so it would still be useful.
I think another interesting component would be if the keystone also gives you increased impact on melee attacks or maybe add an area of supression like teriffying barrage to your melee kills after the initial roar.
Nice video, good accurate info on what the nodes do :) A few things though:
- Being shot stops coherency but doesn't disable it; Especially with TDR perks they also reduce its activation delay. Literally half a second after being shot it will kick in. Blocking with shield (ofc most optimal for anti-gunners) will instantly trigger the regen. Starting sprinting or dodging even will trigger the regen. This is why Toughness Regen matters in any gunfight. Any split moment between shots let the Coherency regen to trigger; Usually it's very low and you will get barely 5~10 toughness back in that moment before getting shot again - not a big deal.
But with all the regens you can get on ogryn, you can virtually triple that number. Which is often enough to tank a shot that would otherwise snap your toughness off. And since shooting doesn't do HP dmg before toughness is depleted... it adds a lot of overall survivability. I'll be happy to share some clips to show how often it actually engages.
- Just an additional info I think is pertinent for full understanding: You can't lose more than 1 stack of FNP per second - so being in front of a Gunner by accident wont shave you down instantly; Give you a moment to react with little loss.
- Pained Outburst does suck and need a low grading. Shame it got nerfed so hard.
so, do you think the use case has been misunderstood a little bit? im reading the other comments and im thinking... we got that big melee run--in-smash-head-get-rations left side tree, the "heretics cannot outsmart bullet" left side tree, so is the middle tree meant to be more like "stand behind me punie" and do a bit more of a support role? obviously with the taunting and everything on both shoves and the taunt ability... but I guess that yeah I see what you're saying.
How much less killable does this make us ogryns though? with this new information in mind
@@brettgu3828 To a degree? I think it depends heavily on playstyle, yes, but also just info being mangled over and over and over with few people checking it out in game and of course, let's be honest - FS absolutely does NOT do a good job explaining what shit does. Their descriptions leave a lot to be desired. You will not read anywhere that the Toughness Regen perks also reduce the Coherency triggering delays, but it's there, and isn't small either.
It's not without fault and video points them out well; The most crucial one tbh is the fact it's COHERENCY. If you don't have buddies around, it does nothing. Making this pick utter trash in solos/duos - absolutely useless. But in your regular run, with a group that isn't made of speedrunning knife-zealots, it does trigger - a LOT. 2000-3000 Toughness regain just from Coherency in your average match (with the perks ofc).
I thing big misunderstanding also lies in not getting how the Slot System works. It's not merely 'being close to enemies'. They have to actively get set into the slot. You can stand next to a bunch of enemies and still have coherency online, if they are currently attached to your buddy slots, for example. In fact, sometimes you can get attacked by a melee enemy occupying your slot, and RIGHT after they attack you once - they suddenly deslot. And your coherency kicks in. There are countless in-game moments where enemies don't occupy a slot beside being close by - running to a friend, switching posture (shooters), ranged enemies don't occupy a slot until they turn to their melee stance...
You can experiment with bots and spawner in Grinder to see the situations and scenarios to see it kick off even in the midst of enemies.
used to love thtat keystone..then they "balanced" it
I think the Feel No Pain hits breakpoints if you take the toughness generated on hit\kill blessing on your weapons. Also it rewards getting into a good cadence with your: Heavy -> Light -> Heavy -> Light, vanguard
elentless attack chains. I usually get into the rhythm with a Long Press -> Triple tap on the mouse. Also works well with the Zealot hammer. You can wade into a mob smacking everything around and then shrug off the slap from a bruiser that slips in behind you, without taking damage.
I tried out wizard class and man the ability to just go around a pick up nearly all the skills and flexibility is quite refreshing compared to ogyrn the class that gets no love but gives the most love
I love this idea. I don't think anyone but the Bull Rush Ogryn can easily escape when being backed into a corner by Bulwarks. This CC type Ogryn will be the type that you want to throw into a small room and have him jumble everyone up!
Sadly, Fatshark does not play Ogryn... or their game...
Please check and brainstorm a fix for Zealots RIGHT aura. The Lone Wolf one.
Mr.E to Tanner, "I can fix him"
Powercouple
Favorite Gay arc :)
I wish they also make it so Heavy Hitter keystone actually gives you the amount of stack per number of hits your heavy attack actually lands. It's so dumb that it only gives you 1 stack per Heavy Attack Hit regardless of the amount of enemy it actually lands. Like the time it takes you to get 5 stack vs the amount of time it takes for the stack duration to end is short as hell. At least make it so not the whole 5 stack is gone after a certain 7.5s.
Yeah, when I occasionally tried to run Feel No Pain, I could feel it being fairly weaker than it was supposed to. I chalked it up to me being bad
It would feel great to have almost 2 ultimates on the most boring class imo!
I like the this keystone being pro-active, it feels better when you do something and get reward instead of getting reward passive. I like this keystone doesn't give any damage besides attack speed, but I would make invunerability perk last for only 2-3 seconds to block 1 important hit from dangerous enemy or make the same CD like on until death.
I'd rework it something similar to Ironbreaker, but put some spin on it like...
completely negate the next health damaging attack after something like 10 elite or specialist kills, stacks up to 3 times
left: while the buff is active, block cost reduction, decreases stamina regen delay
right: Biggest, Toughest, Meanest!: Ogryn kills being worth 2 or 3 stacks,
and the final one being: Protect the Lil'uns!: an ally can avoid a mortal wound if you have all three stacks, but consumes all of them
I think warp charges can use some changes. The two big issues for me are the amount of augments the keystone has and how innately the warp charges are consumed on ability use (I would like this to be an optional augment instead).
I think looking over vet's marksman's focus may be worth talking about, and how it encourages bad play styles, and benefits machine guns more over the implied snipers that it was meant for
Feel no pain’s toughness regen on 0 stacks used to be nice, current state it would only make sense to take the keystone if it was more forgiving for removing stacks.
Idk if the change of damage while blocking with shields still removes stacks of it but that single change made oygrn basically the only class with useless keystones.
Which sucks because oygrn’s should be the most fun to play.
Thanks this is great to hear. As I can try new builds now. I thought this node did something for me :)
as a psyker main i have a few bones to pick. we already know the bad nodes, crystalline will, unlucky for some, penetration of the soul. there is no reason to drive those further into the ground. so instead, i want to talk about two nodes specifically, anticipation and souldrinker. going for anticipation first, it sounds like a nice buff on paper but is rather lackluster in practice. outside of the one extra dodge, the increased duration more or less maths out to less then a second. in truth, it take a 0.2S invulnerability and makes it a 0.3S. wow, i feel so safe. so glad i picked it over empathic evasion which will make me completely invulnerable to range on crits (sarcasm included in this statement). and then there is souldrinker. the actual node it self is... actually not that bad. killing enemies with soulblaze restoring both toughness and giving more crits is awesome. the problem? its on the wrong side of the tree. both perilous combustion and wildfire are on the left side, meanwhile souldrinker is over on the right. i feel they could fix it with a little movement on the tree. if they really want to keep the nodes where they are they could move perilous assault to the other side and rearrange nodes since i always felt perilous assault was better for gunpsyker, even if its not really that good. BONUS: surety of arms still giving peril when above the 75% threshold. if i cant benefit from it, why is it hurting me?
Eh, still kinda iffy on the rework suggested here, it's quite redundant with Taunt. I feel like the more simple answer would be to bring back the Ironbreaker's passive from VM2 with some of the lvl 25 talents associated with it, such as a choice between an AOE stagger or attack buff on proc with the third side node being for cooldown reduction to the auto-block
If you were to get into the tabletop.... the "balance" is even worse!
Pained outburst automatically pushes dogs off you, that alone has helped me salvage many team wipes and is the only reason I ever use the keystone
It's not automatic. You have to wait for the dog to bite you 10 times! By that point, the enemy is already crowding around you. At worst, your team8s save you, nulling the point of Pained Outburst.
@nodosa994 Not when you quickmatch into a hunting grounds where everyone is already dead. Most enemies don't attack you while pounced, and having this is better than nothing in that scenario if you want to save it.
@@bluelense7 With so much Stamina, dog pounce should not be an issue unless you have the Power Maul. And Dogs knock other dogs
If you need a talent that needs you to take 10 bites before knocking it off, then I suggest a better team. Save that extra talent point. Ogryn already has a hard time keeping up.
I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure the Zealot invulnerability only stops you from going down if you would lose your last 1 health. It doesn't prevent you from losing health and toughness, those will still drop to 1 and 0 as normal.
Your proposed skill could work differently, of course, and lock in your values. I just mention this because you likened "Try Harder" to Zealot invulnerability.
My boy! Look at what they have done to my poor boy.
I don’t have any ideas for what else needs to be tweaked next, but I’ll leave a comment for the algorithm. Love your vids man 😤
I use to run FNP because I felt when playing that it helped with not taking so much damage, but looking back I just kept my toughness constantly topped off which is why I took no damage or a bit of chip. Will have to swap keystones
Edit: Maybe if they made it where FNP was just a 20% damage reduction, or 10% to both toughness and health so effectively a 20%. Or even a fat toughness and health boost of 25% to both
You don't really need anything more than heavy attack toughness, bleed on heavy, and DR per bleeding target.
Spam your secondary's melee on rumbler or kickback and pull out a pickaxe for carapace.
Rimworld music flashbang
Am i the only one who thought of the ogyn as support, and the zealot as tank? Ogyns are a pain to shoot around.
Unfortunately I think that how fatshark wanted this keystone to play out. Feel No pain used to only lose stacks if you took. Health damage but they nerfed it to lose stacks on and damage taken to toughness or health.
I’d like to see your ideas to fix psyker blitzes ideas to make each more useful to a full build.
You did a general video but could make one specifically for blitzes.
My concern with the base reworked node is ur getting that off MAX once per 50 seconds.
I admit it, I fell for all the youtubers and posters claimimg that Feel no pain was the best. I guess that was past its' due date.
I'll change back to the build I already had, which is about identical to the one you recommend as the good build. :)
At least until FS fixes the keystone.
I've felt the new build with FNP keystone was surprisingly weaker than my previous one so I might have swapped back regardless, this video makes it obvious why that is though.
how could someone dislike this video???
Damn. I'm an awesome person now 🤘
Thanks for liking my name! :)
Thanks for not letting me down in the game!
You make a good case against FNP. It had me fooled. I guess heavy hitter is the only good one then eh?
Your idea about the new keystone is cool, but I think 50 stacks is way too many. What if i had 'makin me mad' without 'thats my secrit'? I'd need to get hit 25 times or block 50 times before i got anything out of it? That seems like way too much. I suggest reducing it to just 10 stacks needed, so I only need to do 10 blocks or get hit 5 times. Change 'thats my secrit' to gain 1 stack every 5 seconds to balance it out.
And Fatshark just announced, that ogryn talent tree is being reworked in new patch... coincident? ;)
hahahahahahahaha
Thanks for the information. It's really beneficial
Would allowing Ogryn to regain coherency toughness even when in melee be a meaningful buff?
Mister E do you remember FNP pre nerf? Was it still trash back then? Or was it OP? I assume it was nerfed for a reason.
I sent 3 characters to auric damnation before creating an ogryn and... the ogryn skill tree is just depressing, I often saw myself with avaiable points and absolutely nothing that i wanted to get, theres some weird dmg stuff both melee and ranged but besides that theres nothing else. Theres so litttle focus on tank/support/stagger, just why in the flying fk are ogryns forced to build dmg hybrid/full dmg, getting to full build changes so little it doesnt even matter.
Fix the cosmetic shop
It's all right as it is. Kind of.
But sure, I'd recommend FS changes it to have all Cosmetics accessible though and instead have a discount cycling.
Has this keystone since been fixed at all? It feels like I'm seeing more and more folks recommending it for havoc
hell no they havent done anything, those people are insane or reading the ogrynomicon as gospel, which recommends this on some builds and is totally outdated
I would like to hear what you would do with ogryn auras to be more useful
I like the direction of your proposed redesign but think it's not quite fully thought through or tuned.
In the proposed redesign too many aggravation stacks are needed to activate the ability and the passively generating aggravation stacks is WAY too necessary in order to actually generate sufficient stacks. I don't know about you, but even as a crowd controling ogryn I'm not blocking very often or taking hits that often. If I don't have the passive generation, I honestly might only get sufficient stacks after several minutes of play. A combination of attacks and pushes tends to be mostly sufficient for crowd controlling a horde in normal play. As such, in addition to tweaking the number of stacks added by taking hits or blocking hits, I think you'd want to also add in Pushing as a way to generate stacks. Pushes are a normal part of crowd control and higher in the talent tree you can get the super push, so you're leaning in to that theme a bit more there.
Sounds okay but i would keep it to melee weapon special only. Even there its kinda iffy activation imo
There are some special attacks that are worth using like on the Kickback with Pierce blessing and Can Opener on the Rippers wich i use if im not using Pickaxe. What about Paul special? I know the power maul is trash but that relies entirely on special attack activation. The knife uppercut special is also decent as it interrupts crushers. Folding shovel special is also good. You see there are a lot of instances where having this on special activate is kinda bad
Yeah maybe activate on shove?
@@MisterEtide That sounds better yes, only time i really use push on Ogryn is against a pack of Ragers since the heavy attacks already have so much stagger on everything else 🤔
I agree FNP needs buff. But I don't agree your idea regarding the "Weapon Special" part. You are basically giving Orgyn a SECOND ability with 50 seconds cooldown. IMO, keystone should be passively activated.
I couldnt think of a way to activate it without it being frustrating to happen at an actually useful time. Like if it requires being hit but enemies wont hit you or you waste the whole effect by getting hit with a stray bullet. I like the idea of the knockback the the ability has with its augment, but hate the activation requirement.
Why is it that the rock isnt in the middle but the lunch box is? All the other things that are variants of the base abilities are on the left side? But not the lunch box? It doesnt make sense to me!
also fix shotguns aswell cmon mister e pester fatshark to fix shotguns please im on my knees i beg of you
Disrubt Destiny. It‘s a good Keystone, but getting your stacks denied by team mates feels bad.
i could be wrong about this but wasnt it op once before? havent used my taunt big man in sometime now cuz the pickaxe/heavy hitter is so strong and my gun ogryn getting that "new" gun next week but i remember it being so good with the shield
I am kinda curious how people want to change martyrdom. It's easily my favorite zealot capstone right now and by far the build with the most successful missions. Can someone explain what's wrong with it? Only thing I can think of it is being useless if you're at full health or a hindrance to your team if you're bad at avoiding hits and you play too risky and get yourself killed. I usually only play at heresy and damnation difficulties so is it just a problem that only really crops up in maelstrom?
1. you cant get all max stacks. You can get up to 6 and thats it. Thats the max you're gonna get (it should be 7 btw). In order to reach 6 stacks you need 3 wound curious. I dont need to explain why this is awful. You have no stamina and no toughness.
2. It just does not work. There is toughness damage bleedthrough, meaning 1 rager hitting you 2 times is gonna down you. 1 fire puddle is going to down you, barrels and flamer tanks are gonna down you instantly.
3. Holy revenant and the other talent that regens your hp are just not good in general, but they are mandatory for martyrdom. They dont help you in any way shape or form they just prevent you from getting downed when you play bad. OR, in martyrs case, they prevent you from going down for 5 seconds, then you go down because you have no stamina and can't move
4. This game is NOT built around taking hp damage. You can tank whatever you want with toughness but not with hp. As soon as that toughness goes down, you go down
I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe the only build you find success with on zealot is martyrdom. If you tried any of the other keystones your damage would be quadrupled
edit: I ended up writing a whole essay cause I'm just a nerd like that and TH-cam wouldn't let me post it cause it was too long. Had to split it into two posts. Sorry in advance for however long you spend reading it, I just really like talking about game balance! :D
@@wizard_4194 Heya so I'm gonna respond to each number individually just cause I like the organization and it'll help me not go off on like seven tangents and forget what I was saying from being hopped up on caffeine. Thank ya for answering my question, always nice to get someone else's thoughts on the matter!
Also, I'm gonna apologize ahead of time, this is a looooooooooong comment. I'm a budding game developer with a borderline obsession for talking about mechanics and balancing that can bore people to sleep so I totally understand if you don't want to read the whole thing. Just please say if you did or didn't so I don't get confused if you respond with a point I covered. If you do read through it then you are now my favorite person on the internet :D
Though before I get into it, I do want to bring up that I don't play martyr as a 1 health hero. That's waaaaay too risky for my taste. I'll agree with you that people who play like that tend to be a detriment to the team unless they're literally the god emperor himself. And he hasn't gotten up from his throne so anyone who thinks they're all that are obviously heretics. And my zealot Noda Traytor is absolutely not a traitor to the throne.
1. Okay so yeah you're absolutely right on that one. I just completely forgot about that dumb mechanic. Hopefully large fish decides to do something about that cause it seems like something that shouldn't be a difficult fix. Though knowing them, it won't be patched until sometime in 2030 right alongside giving brainburst the buff it needs. RIP my favorite psyker ability. In terms of stamina and toughness though I don't typically have much problem with them. I've got toughness regen speed on all my curious and stamina regen on 2 of them and I'm honestly debating trying to fit something else in place of the toughness regen speed. Between regaining melee through killing enemies with melee and the instant regen of FotF, the only times I usually run out are when I'm at high health and NOT one-shotting everything weaker than a crusher. In which case, the chip damage I take while getting melee toughness regen just helps me along. I also just don't block much unless it's to push attack so that might be part of it. Idk about other weapons, but the only weapon I use with this build is the orestes mk 4 chainaxe. Push attack into heavy chain typically gives enough pushback to stun anything I've pushed long enough to get the stamina I spent back. And again, I play with the "best defense is a good offense" mindset when running martyrdom.
2. So it CAN work, but it's very dependent on your skill and also your mindset. Bear with me here. With martyrdom, you have to look at your health as a resource. Idk if you've played it but it's worth a shot using it as an example here; think of playing black in Magic the Gathering. If you never get hit and everything else is dead, then the only point of health that matters is your last. Granted yes, Darktide does have toughness bleedthrough so you absolutely shouldn't go to pixel health, but the general point is still there. Bleedthrough is a threat yes, but if you properly manage your health, pick your targets, have a good instinct of when and where to dodge, and know when to back up, it's not as bad as you'd think. So there are four main threats here that you want to keep in mind and I'll go through them each.
2.a: Ragers. So these guys can be painful if they catch you off guard. But with the build I have right now, they're pushovers. My weapon of choice- the Orestes Mk IV chain axe- stuns them with uncharged light attacks, though exactly when and how can be a bit buggy. Sometimes they'll take a few steps and then get stunned, sometimes they'll ignore the first hit and then get stunned as it finishes, sometimes they get off one swing before getting stunned, and sometimes they get stunned as soon as you poke em. No clue why there's such a variation in timing but I'm assuming it's a combination of code jank and a bit of client/server desync. Obese selachimorpha aren't exactly known for having perfect bug-free games and servers. But either way, ragers typically aren't a problem. If your martyr stacks and weapon damage-increasing blessing stacks don't kill them in one uncharged light headshot, then a second will do the trick. And the stun lasts long enough that you can almost permanently stunlock two ragers at once.
2.b: Crushers. And maulers, but they fall within the same boat here. The lower your health, the more these guys look like big piles of meat to be tenderized. I haven't gotten down the exact numbers, but I believe at around 2 bars you can one-shot a crusher with a powered chainaxe headshot if they're alone, or 2-3 shot them with uncharged lights to the head if there's other threats with them. I mean you can one shot them at higher health with the charged attack, but I'm mainly looking at the uncharged light since it's a lot less risky. I also don't know if it's crits or just raw damage that gives me that damage threshold, again I haven't gone in the meat grinder to get exact numbers. It's all just a good instinct/feel at this point with how much I've played my martyr build. Maulers, being essentially crushers with less health, are just as easy to take down.
2.c: Fire and barrels. Okay so barrels aren't really a problem unless you get very chaotic trigger-happy teammates. In that case, just try and avoid being near the barrels and pray to Big E that your teammates aren't heretics doing it out of malicious intent. Not much you can do about that. I *think* regular barrel explosions chunk off roughly 2 bars of martyr health, so it's just a game of being careful. But with fire barrels, there's a trick that lets you move through their fire without taking ANY damage. Just jump. Seriously, if you spam jump you can pretty much sit inside of a fire barrel's burning without taking ANY damage. Very good for distracting enemies. Or if you want low health quick, they can be used to safely lower your health for martyr stacks. Just don't be stupid about it. For flamers, I honestly haven't played much with their new exploding canisters so I can't really say much about that other than treat em like barrels and pop them from a distance with your handy Zarona six-shooter. I don't know how much damage they do but I'd imagine it's comparable to a barrel explosion. Bombers have a similar deal to flamer fire. Tox bombers are honestly better since you can farm corruption off of them, but it's a bit too risky for my taste to go below 4 wounds worth of corruption. But I mean martyr zealots treat bombers as any other zealots. Don't stand in the fire. Simple as.
2.d: Bosses. Okay so I'm not the greatest at fighting bosses. If you're low health, don't be stupid and rush them without a plan. Bosses are pretty much the only things I actively block. Learn their pattern and you can sneak in hits, but tbh I don't know their patterns well so I don't have much advice here other than play with your team and try not to become a chew toy for a hungry beast of nurgle or chaos spawn.
3. Yeah I won't deny that they're pretty much mandatory for martyr. But honestly I think if martyr and blazing piety switched sides, it wouldn't be as much of an issue. The way the tree is spaced out makes it look like martyr is supposed to sync well with the middle tree and it reaaaaaally does not do that at all. And imo the infectious zeal in the blazing piety tree fits better with the team-focused middle tree better. But that's another tangent that I won't go on any further here. So yes, those perks are mandatory. But detrimental? No, I wouldn't say that. I'm not a god at the game so I have had to rely on until death and holy revenant before, but it's not as bad as you think. HR gives healing equal to 3 times the melee damage you deal (capped at 25% of your max HP), and martyrdom is ENTIRELY focused on high melee damage. 5 seconds of invincibility at 1 HP means you're getting TONS of melee damage. So much damage and 3x the healing means I've actually healed to the 25% cap from taking down a small group of wandering enemies. It's perfect synergy. It's also good if you mess up and trigger it during a boss fight too. Again invincibility at max stacks (yes I know, 6 max not 7 cause FS has the counting abilities of an ogryn) plus healing from all the damage you dealt means you can deal a surprising amount of damage. And as long as you remember to start backing off once the timer is about to end, you can survive what you otherwise shouldn't have if you weren't running those perks. And again, you're bringing up low stamina so I'm gonna bring up the invincibility and crazy damage. If you aren't able to significantly thin or even completely destroy whatever knocked you into revenant then unless it's gunners across the map with no path to reach them, you probably misplayed. Even healing from gun damage probably wouldn't give you too much. But hey, that just happens sometimes. Can't control every variable and hindsight is 20/20. Just gotta learn from your mistakes and improve.
4. Okay so yes, you don't want to delete your health bar. But even with martyr you're not really supposed to let yourself get hit down to 1 HP. You don't ONLY get its effects at low health, you get it in stages as your health goes down. Treating it as such either from people not playing with it or from people who actually DO use it but don't understand how to best use it is just bad. You gotta read the perk to utilize it effectively. Stacking curios and perks, you get a total of 7 small wounds. Every wound lost gives you (assuming you fully specced into martyr) +8% melee damage, +4% melee attack speed, and +6.5% toughness damage reduction. Even at a moderate 3 lost wounds, you're dealing a combined +24% melee damage at a +12% speed increase while taking 19% less damage to toughness. That's a BIG increase to base stats at a very reasonable health percent of around 55%. TDR means you take less toughness damage while the increased melee damage means you're killing things faster to get those smaller chunks of toughness you lost back.
Not a point that you brought up, but probably something most people who don't like martyr worry about and something I do want to talk about. Proper health percentage. When playing martyr, I typically shoot for having between 1.5 and 2.5 bars of health. That gives me just enough health to make a mistake or two and not get punished too bad while giving me plenty of martyr stacks. When I know I'm about to encounter a boss, I'll heal up to about half to have a bigger safety net. If I find one, I usually prefer to carry around a med stim as well. Sure the combat stim would be better for damage, but again the med stim has a good safety net. And before you say anything- no I don't always save it for myself. I'll heal a teammate who's about to die from wounds since two people are always better than one. Playing martyrdom is all a game of managing resources and optimization to squeeze out the most damage without going overboard, which I think is why it's my favorite.
Alright, I'm running out of steam here, but hopefully some of the info above helped you or whoever else might be reading get a little insight either into my thoughts on martyrdom or at the very least got you to learn something new. Like that barrel trick! That's one of my favorite pieces of obscure techs. But yeah, martyr is my favorite zealot build. I probably just worded my comment on my success with martyr weird but no it's not the only build I've had success with. My first ever zealot build and the one that got me hooked on playing them was a pure melee crit build with the heavy evis. I still love that build, but I just genuinely prefer my martyr build more. If you still don't believe me, I'd be more than happy to make a showcase and post commentary video of a damnation run with my martyr build so you can see my thought process with the game as context. I've been wanting to learn how to do stuff like that so it'd be a perfect excuse for me to jump in. But that's all I got, have fun in game and praise the emperor fellow guardians!
@@Vynalith its still not enough reward for the fact that, yes, you in fact DO have to play with 1 wound worth of hp to get every benefit from martyrdom. You could get 1 curio with stamina but at that point why run the fuckin keystone. Just run any of the other 2. The damage compared to the other 2 is not that big, I for one have done miles as zealot by using momentum. Its just simply better. Middle tree for zealot also doesn't really work with anything in the game. As it stands its awful. Now, is martyrdom fun? Yes, easily my favourite way to play zealot (shocker I know lol), but its just weird. It really deserves more love.
@@wizard_4194 I wouldn't say 1hp gives every benefit but rather gives the highest amount of benefit. You still get all the benefits of increased damage, attack speed, and TDR with only one bar missing, just not as much as you would if you had six bars missing. But I get what you mean. Hopefully whenever FS gets around to fixing stuff they don't butcher whatever buff or rework it'd get since it's honestly the biggest reason why I play zealot.
So what's your secret to getting momentum working well for you? I've tried making it work with a build or two and it just never clicked for me. It wasn't BAD, but I just didn't feel any noticeable power boost or effect like I have with the other two keystones. Is it just a playstyle thing? Like do I have to play zealot differently with momentum than I do with the others where the goal is to basically get stuck in and cleave through anything in my way?
The talent's name is "Feel No Pain", why just don't make an Ogryn invincible?
Or even better, make him uninterruptible while charging Heavy Melee Attack!
The state of Ogryn is pretty sad tbh. Lack of weapon variety, laughable keystones, constantly getting nerfed one way or another while other stronger classes dont get touched... Like come one Fatshark, no surprises nobody wants to play Ogryn nowadays while you can choose a zealot and have both, more fun and better everything. I guess being the dumb pet of the team is the only thing thats left for this class....
This is a comment. Idea: Bugged skillnodes and are they worth something if they would work?
I have commented
Top tier comment
Smoke Nades plsssss
Seems great. Hope theyre watching
Great work Mr. E, another great video!
I will say: I feel like you are overly harsh at times which leads to you saying a talent is universally bad but missing out on the scenario's where it is good. But in general it's an evaluation that makes sense with testing to prove the point. I think I would do a redesign of this differently, but I really like some of your ideas, like the invulnerability.
I should go take a look at the Burst-Limited Override video... 🤔
I am overly harsh because 1) i am putting on a bit of a performance to entertain an audience, and 2) i actually do get kinda irritated with people believing things are good without evidence, and i really want to draw peoples attention to the issues. Go check out the BLO video, i think the fixed version of that skill would be awesome!
agree
Sorry, I'm a fake fan, I'm subscribed but don't watch any of your videos. Keep it up!
Does anyone think that humongousfish would actually listen to Mister E?
I dont think keystones should have active abilities.
Also this doesn't really make you any tankier, its just a bad vet shout.
I'd rather just see the keystone provide a base amount of health and toughness damage reduction of 20%, then blocking or taking damage increases your stacks.
Which would provide up to 50% damage reduction at max, these decay overtime. Then a roar/pained outburst at max stacks, which pushes back enemies and buffs your team.
I really hope some devs at fatshark see these videos and get inspired cause this is some good shit👌
What the fuck why is feel no pain so ass??? I already rarely take it but it only affecting group toughness regen is awful wtf
Meh i'm not a fan
This is such a horrible take but it’s fine, only so much experience being level 118 takes ya
Maybe some actual arguments instead of useles coment?
@ I don’t really care enough to type the reason why but through discord sure. Too much to write
Man i laid out my argument, if youre telling me 25% toughness dr is a good keystone, we just aren’t playing the same game.
@@MisterEtide I don’t think we are playing the same game. I have over 2.5k hours in this game and 1k of those hours is ogryn and I can confidently say that with the right set up from your talents to weapon choice it is not bad and I have scoreboards and gameplay to prove otherwise. I’m not gonna go in depth cause that’ll be a lot to write and I’m too lazy to persuade you. I understand what you’re saying with your points however anything can look mediocre when you just stand there and take hits saying keystone bad. Theirs a reason why the ogryn has had so many nerfs
@@yaboirichard591 then dont coment at all if u cant provide proof of your claims its empty yapping at this point. Not goona go in depth but writes a useles in depth coment braging how many hours u have played on ogryn, clasic . E man at least shows how the ability works and what it does......