What’s Wrong With Using Ableton to Run In-Ear Monitors?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มิ.ย. 2024
- Sometimes what seems like the simplest solution is actually the worst.
If you’re using your computer to run in-ears, there a lot of things that can go wrong. I’m as much an advocate for using computers on-stage as anyone, but this is one thing that you shouldn’t use your computer for.
I’ve got 8 reasons why and what you should do instead.
P.S. What do you use to run in-ears?
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0:00 - Intro
1:32 - Reason Why we shouldn't use our Computer for In-Ears
4:05 - The Latency
7:15 - Routing every Input to your Interface
9:16 - Using EQ/Effects for the In-ears
10:32 - High Buffer on Computer
12:01 - The Concept of Division of Labor
15:11 - Alternative of using Computer for In-ears
17:38 - Free Courses & Templates on From Studio to Stage
17:53 - Subscribe to the Channel
18:35 - Outro
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I run IEMs through my interface without problems. I have Ableton Live on an M1 Mac running a 64 sample buffer on an RME interface. Plenty of power for LOTS of effects running live, just make sure your plugins don't add additional latency. The latency is under 5ms, not much more than a digital mixer and I've succesfully done several live gigs with this setup.
hey this has definitely been my experience but i dont actually have in ears only airpods, do you think it's possible to run airpods as iems without insane latency?
@@michaelintheory3384 Wireless consumer headphones always add lots of latency, AidPods are not good for IEM use. You have to have either wired IEMs or a professional wireless solution, which is a lot more expensive.
@@michaelintheory3384That's what we're doing! Except we're not using airpods but a cheap guitar wireless system hack as explained here th-cam.com/video/uXTZNY5Ta-o/w-d-xo.html. I *measured* (I don't believe manufacturers) latency with this system and it was at 6ms, equivalent to 2 meters / 6 feets. It's not a problem since in ears are... well "in ears", zero meters from your eardrum. I'd not use this system for any instrument *in* (I want all ins in perfect sync) , but not an issue at this stage. Works like a charm! (M1 Mac + Berhinger UMC1820, 64 samples in Ableton, around 7ms overall latency).
Hi Will, like many others here I use Ableton for my in-ears without any issues. My Mac M1 handles four vocals, bass, drums, backing tracks, lights, all the effects, automation etc etc. We run at 128 samples (roundtrip latency of an unnoticeable 12ms), use zero latency plugins, have complete control over our monitor mixes (including what FX we want on them), use our own interface/PA and have never had an issue in four years of gigging (CPU never goes above 35% and audio glitches don't start until 80%). Plus having it all in one place makes setting up simple and means we don't incur extra costs. FWIW I think a more helpful video would have been "How to use Ableton to Run In-Ear Monitors" - you could have still put your caveats in if you wanted (although only division of labor has any validity) and it would have been more positive, helpful for bands/musicians that want to get the most out of Ableton, and shown just how capable Ableton is.
glad you found something that's working for you.. I would continue to do that :)
what interface do you use to have so many inputs ?
@@dannydavidsongriffin We use a Focusrite Clarett 8Pre and a Scarlett 18i20, linked by ADAT. This gives us >16 inputs and a bazillion outputs.
This gave me all the hope in the world in the beginning of the video, as I'm in the process of setting up my live show and need to get some in-ear monitors. Towards the end though, my feeling was, I'm sort of doomed/stuck with my setup! I'm a solo artist doing an electronic music live show /set with vocal and virtual instruments. All the tracks are cut into scenes - so the set runs in session view as to make looping on scenes easier -, plus each instrument has its own channel. Everything is automated and mapped to trigger scenes, send effects, filters, etc. through an APC40mkII. Vocals run through an UA apollo interface to avoid latency and at the same time through a Vox channel on Ableton to add support with send effects. Keys are played with a controller, so instruments change throughout tracks and are triggered with chains. The controller's encoders are mapped with ClyphXPro. So to complete the formula, my idea is to connect in-ear monitors to the Apollo interface for the click track and some output music from Ableton. How do you even consider in my case Division of Labor, when everything is so tied up together? Specially in a playback + live electronic music environment. Seems so hard to figure it out! Which is scary knowing that Ableton or my computer can collapse at any point during a live performance.
I think this is contextual. It all depends on your gear too…This is why starting at the core, and investing in a machine that can handle the job with a rock solid audio interface with solid drivers are absolutely essential. And I’m not referring to your run of the mill Scarlett aI. Something like the UA Apollo or anything in the league of RME is what I’m referring to… I guarantee that the RME fireface UFX+ I’m currently using, coupled with the M3 Max Apple silicon, running maxed out specs (16 cores with 128gb of dedicated ram + 8tb of internal storage) will handle any live gig + processing + IEM mixing, with inaudible latency and little to no audio dropouts. Sure, maybe a rig that costs 10k might seem excessive to some, but hey, you get what you pay for. When it comes to audio, I’m a firm believer of the “no compromise” and “no taking shortcuts” policy, but hey, to each their own. One things for certain though: There’s not a moment where I feel like the bottleneck for the job in tasked with at hand is a result stemming from my gear (or lack thereof). that’s one less thing to worry about. And it’s paramount when you’re in the heat of the moment, especially in a live situation. Also, the sheer benefit of being able to make the connection between your AI and laptop via thunderbolt 4 protocol is an absolute game changer, and I encourage every professional to consider the benefits of using an AI that offers TB4.
As someone who falls into the small category of solo artists who run their IEM through their interface, I COULDN'T AGREE MORE! It's so important to have a separate machine handling each specific task for all the reasons you laid out. For my unique situation, I'm playing 4-5 solo "loop" shows a week and basically have a copy of the stereo mix I give the house, running to my headphone out (Presonus Quantum 2626). I also have the option to add more vocals and click to my ears mix with knobs on a midi controller. I have an EQ8 and limiter going to my ears and can tune it to my liking. I've done a couple duo shows with a friend who also loops (Boss) and I took a send from his mixer (MIdas MR18) into my interface and created an audio track that fed the IEM bus. I also sent him my click on an output that he could control with his mixer. There are ways to make it work but it's always best to have it separate.
I love this comment Joseph and I’m glad you got the context too. I always struggle when creating content like this, because there are sooo many contexts out there, but you’re right.
For a solo setup, it’s 100% possible to make this happen, but you should always have that backup plan and for the folks listening that are in bands, I would 100% rely on a mixer for this.
Appreciate your comment and thanks for taking the time to share!
I think a good compromise for small bands is the usage of a standalone capable audio interface with DSP and digital mixer functionality, such as Motu Ultralite (mk5) or RME Fireface e.g. UCX. It still runs if the computer is shut down and DSP includes Reverb for singer and very flexible options for creating the Monitor Mix (use PC Sources as well as direct monitored inputs). This should be also a good option from budget view and I appreciate the clean cable structure a lot.
I would suggest that as an alternative for a solo artist, but not for a band. I would also push a band to choose a digital console like the x32. When you compare the price to those interfaces, the amount of effects, headphone outputs for in-ears, ability for each person to mix their own in-ears...you can't come close to that with an interface.
Again, for a solo artist running tracks, I'd consider an interface solution, but going the console route will always be the most flexible and budget friendly choice when you're dealing with more than 2-3 inputs and multiple in-ear mixes.
I know its crazy, but I’ve been making live looping shows for the last year with only my jnterface and 2 laptops in redundancy. Its 2 2017 Macbooks pro with an iConnectivity Audio4c. I make monitors and house mix from there. So far its been working smoothly. I’d love to show you my Ableton session and see what you think about it. Your tips have helped me a lot while building it.
Not crazy at all! For a live looping/solo artist setup it makes a lot of sense.
For a band setup-I would never, ever recommend using a DAW/interface for ears over a console
please make a video about your setup id love to see it!
I'm gonna preface this by saying that your concerns for NOT wanting to use an interface in lieu of a monitor console are valid BUT, somehow someway I have managed to overcome all of the concerns you have mentioned. I use Reaper as the DAW which is quite a light DAW in terms of memory space and CPU power as it has very little in the way of on board plugs in and FX etc. I manage to not hear any latency. And we play to a click so it HAS to be right on time.
The only time I noticed it is when I once used more than one interface and turned the MacBook's camera on in an attempt to live stream with seperate audio out feed and only then did it introduce speed/latency issues. I think I was overloading the CPU. But take all that away going back to ONE interface and no camera on it was all good
I guess the interface thing is a more bang for buck way of doing an IEM rig. Things are crazy expensive in New Zealand and because of that we tend to be very DIY and "jerry rig" things up to achieve results
That’s awesome you’ve got a solution that works for you! You certainly “can” mix ears with a DAW, I would not recommend it.
I still wouldn’t recommend anyone choose an interface over a console for ears-for all the reasons I mention here.
For a solo act, you could get by with using UAD or RME, but I would never use a DAW for mixing ears.
For price, by the time you add up the cost of gear that would let you process 8 + inputs latency free without a DAW, add effects and EQ specifically for in-ears (that don’t go to front of house), send monitor mixes to multiple band members, and give each band member control of their mix, a console beats an interface-every time. Maybe that’s just a US thing but an x32 or studiolive is a way better investment for an all in one solution than a 1-2k interface.
@@fromstudiotostage for context on price. A Behringer X32 rack retails here for about $3500 give or take. I got the Behringer UMC1820 interface (which has 8 mic preamps) for just over $500 and a Behringer MS800 8 channel splitter for around $130 I think it was. Then a few headphone extenders and adaptors and all up that's close to a quarter the price of the X32 set up.
Cheap doesn't always mean bad, just as much as expensive doesn't always mean the best
I guess I should of stressed the point in this video, I’m not saying it’s not possible or you can’t…I’m saying you shouldn’t as it’s limiting , introduces complexity and introduces un-needed stress on your computer
I’m trying to educate folks that are new to this the right approach going forward and an approach that will allow them to grow.
I still would never, under any circumstances suggest anyone use their DAW for ears while also running tracks.
@@fromstudiotostage Yes you are right in saying in an ideal environment where money is no obstacle absolutely have a dedicated mixing console for in ears. The power drain on the laptop can, in some circumstances let you down in that regard I definitely would have gone the way of having a dedicated mixing console if the price difference wasn't so huge.
Maybe one day when I make it big #OneCanDream
I disagree. I often use my m1 max macbook pro for:
- keys tones in Mainstage
- tracks in Ableton
- livestream mixing and implicitly in-ear monitoring in Studio One.
...all at the same time. From the stage. While playing and being an MD.
If you use the right plugins, you don't add much latency and it's all manageable.
sounds like you've got something that works for you! I would not take my advice :)
Thank you for this info! So is there a more affordable smaller digital mixer you would suggest for a solo electronic act running tracks in Ableton with live guitar (running thru an amp)
x32 or the xAir are GREAT solutions!
@@fromstudiotostage thanks!!
What about for us drummers & all were doing is providing loops/ backing tracks...? What type of setup would u suggest? I usually use my computer & a Yamaha MG 10xU Mixer...?
Same concepts apply no matter what you're using. I would always suggest an external mixer over Ableton, and would suggest the mixer receives all the band inputs
We have dante pcie card and separate ableton/pc for iem. Latency 2ms. Necessery understand what we are doing but as we enhance our bleton skills it is easy managable. Also touchable, touchosc customized remote for band phones
But agree things needs be diveded, to separate systems.
One thing to be careful with is as you add effects in Ableton your latency could increase. That’s a big benefit of going hardware approach, but cool to hear that’s working for you
@@fromstudiotostage every effect has defined latency so it is relativelly easy use that effects or effect settings to maintain no additional latency or latency which is acceptable for exact purpose. Ableton latency autosum needs be off to not sumup latency everywhere.
TL;DR: There isn't one size fits all advice imho. While you're far more of a pro than I am, I respectfully disagree based on my experience. I have 3 vocal mics, 2 guitars, bass drum and snare drum mics (specifically for monitoring) running into my Quantum and into Ableton Live. I'm running 2 return tracks for two separate IEM mixes (would have 4 but I'm limited right now by my IEM transmitter IO) and each instrument track sends to each of those return tracks based on what we want in each mix. I do agree that higher buffer size needed for all the processing contributes to latency, but at 256 samples It's kind of the same latency as running through amps on a medium sized stage. The key is to make sure that "Reduced Latency When Monitoring" and "Delay Compensation" checked. For us this works because we play all instruments live (including software instruments via MIDI keyboards). I think your scenario includes backing tracks, and that would probably be a problem the way we have things set up. I do completely agree with separation of tasks. If we could afford it, we would run redundant rigs and separate things into different laptops but 1. That's even more money and 2. that makes it even harder for a band that needs to set up/tear down quickly in bars.
Whatever works for you-do it!
Rme ufx and extra adat preamps with custom osc app works great, eq +dynamics!
the RME stuff and UAD stuff is great for solo acts, I would always recommend using an actual console for anything more than one person. It will cost far less and be far easier to use.
@@fromstudiotostage
I'd probably recommend an x32r in the same price range because it'd be standalone.
Allthough we're managing running the whole 4-piece rockband just fine with the rme and the mix app for each member.
That’s awesome! I have a student that just went full RME for everything and he said he’s loving it.
He has a solo DJ setup, but doing his ears there as well
The main problem is expense. Band setups with proper in ear equipment costs thousands and musicians are broke! Until shure or senheiser reduce the prices which they haven’t EVER unlike all other home based setups. It’s simply too expensive. I’ve seen £12000 in ear equipment which is the cost of my entire solo artist studio.
it's alot less than you think now. Really affordable digital consoles and solutions like the xvivi make it possible
Having your own in-ear rig (non computer based) actually has the upside of having your perfect monitor mix without the risk of working with a random lousy monitor engineer.
100% I’ve done a few coaching sessions with bands/artists the past few months and they’ve all been about buying a rack mount digital mixer for that purpose: m.th-cam.com/video/f_zM4S2qBtc/w-d-xo.html
Ua interfaces don’t have direct monitoring afaik or loopback. Which is nonsense for such an expensive interface. Focusrite do it way cheaper just not as good quality pre-amps. X32 is quite popular / cheap i am told but again preamps low quality.
they way they work, they don't need them. There's no latency so you process your effects in the hardware and it achieves the same result as "direct monitoring".
To be fair if your ears, track or instrument machines go down you’re stuffed anyway 😂 solo electronic acts can defo monitor, run tracks and play on the same MBP. Not ideal but the cpu power is definitely there even at low buffer.
You’re right, if your whole show is on your laptop, you’re hosed if you lose it haha.
In that setup, I would 100% recommend a redundant setup-so that doesn’t happen.
If you’re a solo act, using an interface like UAD, or RME can work well for ears and interface. I would still encourage any artist to consider a console for those gigs-your life will be so much easier.
I still would never recommend mixing your ears in Ableton and performing with the same computer, even if budget is an issue. It’s just putting too much on one machine for me to recommend.
Again, like I mention in the podcast, if your a solo artist or live looping artist-you can get away with it…but I would NEVER recommend a band do it
Totally! Have you seen the Anomalie (band) and Bad Snacks (solo) Ableton setups? That would seem to be a fairly common way for electronic artists to run tracks, live and virtual instruments on the same machine. I don’t think you would approve 😂
@@Metro6am yeah-cool stuff! Whatever works for you. I would still always suggest best practices whenever possible. “Hope isn’t a good backup plan”…
Why don’t you ever play some audio examples of what your talking about?
I get you know what you’re talking about but playing an example will help cement your theory