Strange this video posted less than a week after I had problems with my MK1 cable on a wedding shoot with the same results mentioned in the video (4K60 signal cutting out with Ninja V & A7SIII). I switched from HDMI 2.0 to Compatibility mode on the recorder, unplugged the cable and plugged it back in. It worked for a few seconds until the signal cut-out again. Panicking after I grabbed a few shots of the bride getting ready, I did a quick Google search and thought maybe I bought an HDMI 1.4 version of the cable by mistake. Confused when I found out the website displayed it as HDMI 2.0, I dismissed it as a fluke to investigate another day. Running out of time and options, I switched to 1080p60 for the rest of the gig with no issues. As other comments have mentioned, your transparency is greatly appreciated. This came as a timely solution for me, so thanks for offering an upgrade for us MK1 owners!
That's a really stand-up offer to put forward. Good on you for this. I bought the purple coil when it first came out and I've never had a single issue with it in my own configuration, but it's fantastic that you've followed up on all this. Thanks Gerald.
Back in the day when HDMI was first launched they use to hold HDMI PlugFests. Dozens of brands would rent rooms at an embassy suites and go from room to room testing their implementation of HDMI with other brands. I used to attend with Pioneer Electronics and test our Blu-ray players, AV receivers and Plasma TV's. It was surprising how many issues were found and needed to be resolved with firmware. Most of the problems were based on HDCP issues, since brands could self certify with Intel instead of sending products for testing. Things are much better than they used to be, however problems still exist.. HDMI ARC still having lots of issues.
As a person who used to do home AV installations, I can attest to the unreliability of HDMI back in the day. I had multiple occasions, where the answer to a problem was switching the device with another manufacturer's gear. It's certainly better than it was, but I still feel like HDMI is one of the least reliable specs out there.
I was thinking about this exactly yesterday so I did some digging. Here is what I think is happening: Sony are using a proprietary protocol system to transfer video signals - which doesn’t always comply with standards. I came to this conclusion when observing the video signal coming out of the Xperia pro - only a dedicated decoder software (such as the one found on the Sony vlog monitor) is able to decode some extra bytes on the signal. If it’s of any interest to you, Gerald, feel free to send me a video sample of a video that doesn’t play well on one monitor but plays good on another - and I’ll pinpoint the problematic bytes in the data and show you.
I have been struggling to figure out why some of my cables would drop signal on my Ninja V+ when shooting 4k 60p. This is just like the USB "standards". Thank you for clearing this up Gerald!
Just picked up 4 cables. It’s nice to know I’m getting HDMI I can trust. Can’t wait to rep that purple swag. 🙌 Thanks for everything you do. Between you and Caleb Pike’s wisdom, the quality on my channel has increased so much.
I saw the sale, didn't pull the trigger, but I appreciate the transparency. Nice blend of customer advocacy and crisis management! This is how creator products should be handled!
Getting the right HDMI speeds and specs for accessories and monitors and recorders can be a pain to figure out right, then when some stuff doesn't work it's hard to tell if it's the cable or the device. I feel ya! Linus Tech Tips has done some interesting content on HDMI cables with a $15k cable tester and had really cool results showing flaws of specific cables and not meeting spec and stuff like that. Wonder if Kondorblue has one of those testers. A chart for which HDMI cable works with which devices sounds an annoying solution, glad you could find a solution that didn't require a chart with your new cable and the 4k60 guarantee!
Just this week I had my own set of issues regarding HDMI output on a new camera, went through three different brands of HDMI cables before I had a working solution.
Love your stuff Gerald! As a new Canadian TH-camr, I’m absorbing as much material I can on video, studios, audio, and devices. Yours is my favorite channel for this!
The only comment that feels adequate here is ‘thank you’ I just really appreciate the care and consideration you’ve put into the cable and the extensive testing to finesse it. Looking forward the more Undone products in the future!
I was on Amazon earlier this week looking at HDMI to HDMI cable before I knew you made one and said "Hey look at that sweet purple cable" and about it. It's now on my FT30. Good work Geral.
I found the cables that came with that so popular Ninja monitor to be too heavy. Clearly they were straining the camera connector. I purchased another cable similar to Geralds, slender. Worked well.
Man hats off to Mr. Undone, before watching this video I never purchased camera gear before seeing his review. His opinion provided me confidence in a purchase decision. A persoon that points out their products issues is a really dope characteristic in my opinion. Might snatch a cable just to support a guy who's saved me a ton of time and money on my film journey.
I rent cameras for stills when I have a client as Im just one guy. Im literally gonna buy a cable because transparency should be supported and rewarded ❤
I tried one last year and was disappointed it didn’t work with my A7IV and Ninja V. Returned it. Was a little disappointed because I wanted to support you. Was surprised given my admiration that your cable didn’t work out. Glad to see what happened and next time I need one I’ll get Mark 2.
BIG WELL UNDONE! Great! You did not say "Let's get undone" (finally) and you are promoting a great customer service attitude while also teaching people something useful, backed with solid research that you did yourself. BIG WELL UNDONE!
Gerald: We've expanded shipping availability Me: Nice! Also Gerald: It's now cheaper too! Me: Wow! * Checks out the website and see the cheapest shipping fee to Japan is $100 * Me: ight Imma head out
OMG yes! I am currently having a dilemma finding HDMI cables that will fit my needs. Every size too - mini, micro, full-grown. 😅 This video is right on time!
So nice to see you acknowledge this issue with cables in general. I had purchased a Ninja V a few months ago to use with my Nikon D800 and I experienced weird signal drop issues using 5 different hdmi 2.0 cables that were each said to be rated for 4k60, not that my camera could even deliver that anyway. I tried for 3 weeks to get things working but in the end had to return the Ninja because no one on the support side of Atomos or Nikon could figure out what was going on. It would be awesome to have been able to try out one of these cables to see if that would have solved the issue. Thank you for taking the time to sort out the issue for all of your customers/viewers; this will go a long way to save a tonne of frustration.
I actually own one of the coiled ones and once have I experienced the dreaded kangaroo icon on my ninja v+ while trying to record on 4k60p with my a7iv. It was not a big deal for me and that's why I think it's amazing to see how honest you are in this video about those small issues in (In my opinion). Keep doing great work
You're the best, GU! Honest marketing and care for your customers. Already have one of the first mark batch, gonna grab one more on discount as I haven't had an issue yet! 2 is one and 1 is none... and everything. Thanks Gerald!
Great to see you guys update the product so now it's surely more trustworthy than your Amazon Basics competition. Those cheapo cables have given me problems sometimes. RE: RAW over HDMI - If you go to Blackmagic's support page and to the Cameras section, in the middle panel back in April 2018 they published a doc explaining how the Blackmagic Micro Studio camera could send RAW over SDI. Basically they took the approach that a 12-bit monochrome image (sensor readout) is smaller than the 10-bit 4:2:2 representation of the same resolution, so they used a unique bit packing scheme to cram the sensor readout into the YCrCb channels. This would certainly look like garbage on any normal monitor, so the expectation was that a developer who read and implemented this wacky spec could decode the image and save it externally. I assume that Atomos is using a similar scheme to get RAW over HDMI from various cameras. The manufacturer and Atomos have to agree on some wild bit-packing schema that fits within the HDMI spec and only really works with those two devices, and voila, you have RAW video transmitted through a standard that isn't supposed to support it.
I was about to write something like that. RAW is different because it usually doesn't contain color information before debayering. It's the same logic that applies to Raw vs Tiff images, Raw being smaller because it's just luminosity data vs RGB data.
Personally I absolutely hate having a cable run out the left side of the camera and monitor. I find it such an awful placement, just asking to get bumped constantly and eventually kill the fragile ports, which seem to have most of their structural loads borne by only the solder joints holding the port to the PCB. There are a few monitors with rear ports, but every photo-style body still has them on the left side, pointed straight out. Gerald you should have KB work on super-low-profile right-angle tips, which would sit flat against the camera body and redirect the cable either upward or forward. The current right-angle tips offer a slight improvement over a straight cable, but still offer plenty of opportunity and leverage to bork the ports after a few bumps. I experimented with using the super thin, low-profile cables used for gimbals, but they still needed some external shielding from bumps, and I didn't want to make my cage any bulkier on that side.
I love my Undone cable, awesome color. As far as I know it works perfectly up to 60 fps with my FX3 and Ninja V (not plus). Still I had problems with gimbal use because it was too heavy and pulling the motors, so is the new straight cable really not that heavy for gimbal use because I would love to use it.
Came to this video on a suggestion from Mark Bennett. My Sony ZV-E10s HDMI will (would) black out very frequently for no apparent reason, and getting it to reproduce this HDMI cutout was maddening. I loved the image from this camera and will probably re-buy one in the hopes that it's a cable issue and not an issue with the camera's micro HDMI port. I'll try one of your left angle coil cables. I do wish someone like SmallRig made an HDMI clamp for their ZV-E10 cage as a further bit of insurance against potential port failure.
This is timely! I was using Atomos HDMI cables with the FX30 and they struggled to deliver 4K24 to the monitor and 60 was right out. I’ll be ordering some of these!
Thanks Gerald and Kondor Blue. it is very refreshing to see this kind of honesty from a creator and a brand. This alone made me switch to their products, which by the way are great :)
i don't need an HDMI cable at the moment, but i love this approach and transparency. i do need a lamp, however, so planning to hold out until Gerald makes one. just gonna sit here in the dark with my breakfast cereal until then.
This is the kind of stuff that fuels my component compatibility nightmares and leads to full un-bought online shopping carts and indecisive “place order” resignation.
Sometimes you randomly run across decency and it takes you off-guard. I’ll always check undone cables first when I’m shopping. In fact I just purchased a 4k 60 purple cable two minutes ago.
I wonder if it’s a HDCP handshake issue. I work for a internet/cable provider and we have issues with certain tvs with our newer set top boxes and those issues change between tvs with firmware updates. It could be an issue between the devices and the camera. Not really sure if it could be an issue but just tossing it out there.
You're going to need a good oscilloscope and multimeter, and then you can test the signal stability and voltage and add a section to all your reviews showing how well each camera adheres to the HDMI spec at various resolutions/framerates/bit depths. Then we can understand who to blame for these compatibility issues. 🙂 Seriously, though... I think the HDMI spec says each pin needs to stay within 5% of 5V at 55mA. Differential pairs need to be 100 ohms but individual signals need to be 50 ohms, but differential coupling drives individual lines below 50 ohms. I imagine that at higher data rates you're more likely to start seeing signals get out of spec, but ... the spec is tricky enough that you could also run into situations where everybody could say they're adhering to the spec even though you're seeing issues. And there are plenty other issues that could arise just from the R/G/B/clock or other payloads having weird things that may or may not be in-spec but aren't supported at the other end...
I just bought the 17in cable from Kondor Blue wishing there was an 18in. Now I guess I'll have to get another cable 😅 love this slight extension so thank you for that!
This is great! I was disapointed I had to return my cables because of inconsistency issues with 4k60 on the a7siii and the ninja v. Looking forward to picking up the new cables!
Sounds like you need a collab with Linus Media Group, who has the HDMI testing kit and might be able to nail down a reason. I'd like to see how well Undone cables hold up under their testing.
You should definitely try to contact Linus Tech Tips about this. They're very interested in cable signal integrity inconsistencies and have made videos in the past about testing signal integrity
As a Canadian living in England Im thrilled by this in many ways! I need these for the Shogun7/Sony a7ii rig I'm using,I'm CERTAIN it won't disappoint !!
Electrical engineer here. I’d guess that this has something to with signal integrity, and/or vendors not being truly spec compliant. Some topics that may relate to or explain the discrepancies: impedance matching, insertion loss, return loss, channel crosstalk/isolation.
This was a great explanation, especially of something that can't really be explained. Also a very nice policy to support customers that really need the higher spec cables. As much as we struggle now with HDMI variations, limitations, and similar issues it is the epitome of simplicity and compatibility compared to previous struggles with various video "standards", not to mention even earlier asynchronous communication protocols where you needed the right connector, possibly a crossover, sometimes with various pins connected together, then you needed to match bit rate / encoding, start and stop bits, parity, terminal type, modem commands, etc. etc. etc. and this was considered _normal_, as in, needed to be specified / discovered / adjusted for every connection, service, device, cable, etc. So there is much to be thankful for in the world of cables and connections compared to the last 10, 20, 30 years. And, now we have purple cables, so that is another nice thing.
Huh this explains why my KondorBlue had issues with my a7S III and Shinobi. I’ve actually found SmallRig’s cables to be perfect for recording ProRes LT in my Ninja V, but I might give your 18” a shot!
This is awesome. I love the look of the purple cable and bought one as soon as I saw your original video, but I too was having issues at 4k60 with the A7SIII and Ninja V+ combo. Sometimes I'd even have issues at 4K30, with the monitor repeatedly dropping signal from the camera. I'm going to see if there are any firmware updates for the V+ I've missed and hope that I have some success like you did. If not, I'll look into a cable replacement. Not surprised but still really glad to see the thoroughness and care that you, as well as Kondor Blue, have for the community. Edit: So I decided to setup my A7SIII and Ninja V+ with the original GU+KB cable prior to doing any firmware updates. The last time I was on a shoot it was so unstable that I just opted to disconnect the Ninja V+ entirely, but now it was working flawlessly at even 4K60 without the signal cutting out once even though I'd not updated the firmware. Really highlights what you were talking about with how weird and seemingly unpredictable the issue is. I have updated the firmware either way and hopefully that will ensure that the issue won't recur in the future, but again I really applaud you and Kondor Blue taking the time to provide a reliable product to the community where reliability is a critical factor in everything we do.
Ok i just recieved that Kondor Blue Undone and tried it out, and i love it it's nice and flexible and fits perfect using my Ninja V+ I'm still trying to get use to this Sony Fx30 I was a Fuji X-T4 guy for a couple years and so it takes getting use to a new system. I'm going to stick with this Sony for a while then Maybe Upgrade to the Sony FX6 Full-Frame Once i get use to this Fx30 for a year or so. Any way love your dedication to all this and i know you just got a New Son, Grads on that... So any way Great HDMI cable Love it...
In regards to V1 cables, actually, Amazon is selling the V1 cables and I purchased them so going to have to return them. I checked the SKU and it's the V1 SKU. The blue cables seem to already be the 4k60 spec so I went with those.
I got 3 purple HDMI and three blue micro HDMI. I’m running a 2 XH2S and 1 XH2 with a Ninja V+ and 2 Ninja V operation. So far so good, zero issues with the mark 1 cables. When I was running my XT3/XT4 combo with the blue cables I never had any issues either. 10/10 would recommend Kondor Blue.
yer hands down the most helpful and easy to learn from. I fully enjoy how you do yer thing! thanks for so much great information in a way that is always well thought out and a pleasure to take in!
8k raw 12 bit actually only takes up little more space than 4k 10bit (both 4:4:4) Raw is not debayered meaning each pixel uses 12bit while a usual signal is debayered using 3x10bit=30bit per pixel. Doing the math 8k 12bit raw takes up 47,46Mb per frame while 4k 10bit takes up 29,66Mb per frame. This obviously does not contain any metadata and is frame rate independent but the concept should still apply when talking uncompressed.
@@KONDORBLUE that’s awesome 🙏🏼 looking forward to that!
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Yesssssssssss that's awesome that you managed to get your cables in Gosselin Stores in Québec! The shipping was the only thing holding me back previously!
I tried 4 different HDMI cables with my A7SIII and Ninja V for recording 4k60 Prores Raw (including Kondor Blue). The ONLY one that works 100% of the time is a monoprice 8k60 1ft (pn 139475).
The reason that Raw 8k is possible over HDMI 2.0 is because raw video requires much less bandwidth than uncompressed video. Raw video has not been de-bayered therfore you only have 1 value per pixel (usually up to 16bits) instead of 3. Compared to uncompressed 10 bit video an equivalent 16 bit raw data stream would only require just over half the bandwidth. For example 4k 60p 10bit 4:4:4 uncompressed requires (3840 x 2160 x 10 x 3 x 60/1024^3) 13.9gbps of bandwidth. 8k 30p 16bit raw would require (7680 x 4320 x 16 x 30/1024^3) 14.8gbps of bandwidth
I thought some of these HDMI raw flavours were "partially debayered". Truthfully, I don't know exactly what is being done on the camera side vs recorder. But you made a good point! 👍
It's possible. As you mentioned camera manufacturers tend to be very vague about how they implement external raw. As far as I know the HDMI spec doesn't natively support it so it will be a proprietary formatting that just uses HDMI as a high speed data link. Regarding the inconsistencies of how different cameras behave with cables, I suspect it will be down to the specific HDMI chipset used in each camera. I presume they will be using of the shelf chips from TI or Analog Devices for example. These chips all have different behaviours regarding their tolerance of noise, crosstalk and other cable related issues. Some simply work better than others.
Definitely do a collab with Linus Tech Tips! You would get a great audience for this sort of high-bandwidth testing (pun intended) that requires in-depth knowledge of this technology.
So far your cables work well with the Sony a7siii through a wireless monitor dongle. Appreciate you offering such a generous exchange policy. I also need to reach out to kondor because one of the levels popped out of my rig.
I hate HDMI. I wish every connection were SDI. Simple single BNC connection that carries video and multiple audio channels like HDMI, and is easily field-repairable.
Hey, can you do a hardware test with DR Studio. I am trying to figure out what to upgrade on my pc but can’t find a bottleneck. I don’t know if it’s my graphics, cpu, memory or storage. I don’t think it is any of them because none of them are being fully utilized, but yeah… I just can’t figure it out
Very useful video from a warning and educational stand point. Would love to see you make a Collab with Linus tech tips on this subject though! They have a very good video on why it's not just camera that are weird but the HDMI standard that is bad, but going deeper with tech expert and a video expert could be very nice 🙂
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I love when someone is just very transparent. Being open and honest about your product. And not having so much waste 🌎
Yessss agree 100%!
100% agree Nice.
I click on his videos as soon as I see them, no matter what I’m doing or what mood I’m in. There’s never any BS or odd tangent.
Strange this video posted less than a week after I had problems with my MK1 cable on a wedding shoot with the same results mentioned in the video (4K60 signal cutting out with Ninja V & A7SIII). I switched from HDMI 2.0 to Compatibility mode on the recorder, unplugged the cable and plugged it back in. It worked for a few seconds until the signal cut-out again. Panicking after I grabbed a few shots of the bride getting ready, I did a quick Google search and thought maybe I bought an HDMI 1.4 version of the cable by mistake. Confused when I found out the website displayed it as HDMI 2.0, I dismissed it as a fluke to investigate another day. Running out of time and options, I switched to 1080p60 for the rest of the gig with no issues.
As other comments have mentioned, your transparency is greatly appreciated. This came as a timely solution for me, so thanks for offering an upgrade for us MK1 owners!
I love this open approach to discussing the weirdness of HDMI. Helping the folks who need it while mindful of minimizing e-waste... perfect
That's a really stand-up offer to put forward. Good on you for this. I bought the purple coil when it first came out and I've never had a single issue with it in my own configuration, but it's fantastic that you've followed up on all this. Thanks Gerald.
Back in the day when HDMI was first launched they use to hold HDMI PlugFests. Dozens of brands would rent rooms at an embassy suites and go from room to room testing their implementation of HDMI with other brands. I used to attend with Pioneer Electronics and test our Blu-ray players, AV receivers and Plasma TV's. It was surprising how many issues were found and needed to be resolved with firmware. Most of the problems were based on HDCP issues, since brands could self certify with Intel instead of sending products for testing. Things are much better than they used to be, however problems still exist.. HDMI ARC still having lots of issues.
As a person who used to do home AV installations, I can attest to the unreliability of HDMI back in the day. I had multiple occasions, where the answer to a problem was switching the device with another manufacturer's gear. It's certainly better than it was, but I still feel like HDMI is one of the least reliable specs out there.
I was thinking about this exactly yesterday so I did some digging.
Here is what I think is happening:
Sony are using a proprietary protocol system to transfer video signals - which doesn’t always comply with standards.
I came to this conclusion when observing the video signal coming out of the Xperia pro - only a dedicated decoder software (such as the one found on the Sony vlog monitor) is able to decode some extra bytes on the signal.
If it’s of any interest to you, Gerald, feel free to send me a video sample of a video that doesn’t play well on one monitor but plays good on another - and I’ll pinpoint the problematic bytes in the data and show you.
You're awesome for doing this
@@tiems
Thanks 🙏🏻 I’m simply mostly a geek 😬
I have been struggling to figure out why some of my cables would drop signal on my Ninja V+ when shooting 4k 60p. This is just like the USB "standards". Thank you for clearing this up Gerald!
Just picked up 4 cables. It’s nice to know I’m getting HDMI I can trust. Can’t wait to rep that purple swag. 🙌 Thanks for everything you do. Between you and Caleb Pike’s wisdom, the quality on my channel has increased so much.
Hey Ten! You're quality is insanely good!
I saw the sale, didn't pull the trigger, but I appreciate the transparency. Nice blend of customer advocacy and crisis management! This is how creator products should be handled!
That's great Gerald. Still can't find the new version on Prisma for us the Europe customers!
Getting the right HDMI speeds and specs for accessories and monitors and recorders can be a pain to figure out right, then when some stuff doesn't work it's hard to tell if it's the cable or the device. I feel ya! Linus Tech Tips has done some interesting content on HDMI cables with a $15k cable tester and had really cool results showing flaws of specific cables and not meeting spec and stuff like that. Wonder if Kondorblue has one of those testers. A chart for which HDMI cable works with which devices sounds an annoying solution, glad you could find a solution that didn't require a chart with your new cable and the 4k60 guarantee!
Just this week I had my own set of issues regarding HDMI output on a new camera, went through three different brands of HDMI cables before I had a working solution.
Send them to LTT labs for a review! They review camera stuff as well
@@ReeceHill ahhhhhh! Also ... Hey Reece!
@@CoalitionGaming wasn’t expecting to run into you here!
Came here to mention LTT and their whiz bang tester. Worth a look.
Love your stuff Gerald! As a new Canadian TH-camr, I’m absorbing as much material I can on video, studios, audio, and devices. Yours is my favorite channel for this!
Such a pleasure meeting and chatting with you yesterday!
The only comment that feels adequate here is ‘thank you’ I just really appreciate the care and consideration you’ve put into the cable and the extensive testing to finesse it. Looking forward the more Undone products in the future!
I was on Amazon earlier this week looking at HDMI to HDMI cable before I knew you made one and said "Hey look at that sweet purple cable" and about it. It's now on my FT30. Good work Geral.
The transparency of this video is remarkable! Well done Gerald
Thanks Gerald! I know where I’ll be getting my HDMI cables from when I need them. Appreciate the transparency! Goes a long way! 👍👍
I found the cables that came with that so popular Ninja monitor to be too heavy. Clearly they were straining the camera connector. I purchased another cable similar to Geralds, slender. Worked well.
Man hats off to Mr. Undone, before watching this video I never purchased camera gear before seeing his review. His opinion provided me confidence in a purchase decision. A persoon that points out their products issues is a really dope characteristic in my opinion. Might snatch a cable just to support a guy who's saved me a ton of time and money on my film journey.
Nice, solid honesty. The world could use as much of that as we can get!
I just got my 18” cable for my Atomos Shinobi. It is fantastic! Glad to support you in a little way, Gerald.
I rent cameras for stills when I have a client as Im just one guy. Im literally gonna buy a cable because transparency should be supported and rewarded ❤
I tried one last year and was disappointed it didn’t work with my A7IV and Ninja V. Returned it. Was a little disappointed because I wanted to support you. Was surprised given my admiration that your cable didn’t work out. Glad to see what happened and next time I need one I’ll get Mark 2.
BIG WELL UNDONE! Great! You did not say "Let's get undone" (finally) and you are promoting a great customer service attitude while also teaching people something useful, backed with solid research that you did yourself. BIG WELL UNDONE!
Gerald: We've expanded shipping availability
Me: Nice!
Also Gerald: It's now cheaper too!
Me: Wow!
* Checks out the website and see the cheapest shipping fee to Japan is $100 *
Me: ight Imma head out
thank you for europe, dude right on time, just got my atomos 🙌🏼and this cable is purrrfected, thankyou🎉
OMG yes! I am currently having a dilemma finding HDMI cables that will fit my needs. Every size too - mini, micro, full-grown. 😅 This video is right on time!
This is one of the many reasons I love Gerald. He's one of the most genuine people on TH-cam.
If one day, I will have my personal brand of products, this is how I want to communicate and handle the business. The definition of professional. 👌
Thanks for being transparent Gerald ! That’s how everyone should be… full respect !
So nice to see you acknowledge this issue with cables in general. I had purchased a Ninja V a few months ago to use with my Nikon D800 and I experienced weird signal drop issues using 5 different hdmi 2.0 cables that were each said to be rated for 4k60, not that my camera could even deliver that anyway. I tried for 3 weeks to get things working but in the end had to return the Ninja because no one on the support side of Atomos or Nikon could figure out what was going on. It would be awesome to have been able to try out one of these cables to see if that would have solved the issue. Thank you for taking the time to sort out the issue for all of your customers/viewers; this will go a long way to save a tonne of frustration.
I actually own one of the coiled ones and once have I experienced the dreaded kangaroo icon on my ninja v+ while trying to record on 4k60p with my a7iv. It was not a big deal for me and that's why I think it's amazing to see how honest you are in this video about those small issues in (In my opinion). Keep doing great work
Finally there’s a new variant of something I’m excited about and not terrified of!
Oh yeah, I've had various HDMI related quirks over the years. Cool that you got things sorted out!
Big respect for the honesty. This is a space starved of this kind of transparency. Props to you sir 🫵🏼
Love how much time and effort Gerald puts in to all his work. Great work, thanks!
Thanks for being the good guy. Always enjoy your videos
You're the best, GU! Honest marketing and care for your customers. Already have one of the first mark batch, gonna grab one more on discount as I haven't had an issue yet! 2 is one and 1 is none... and everything. Thanks Gerald!
Great to see you guys update the product so now it's surely more trustworthy than your Amazon Basics competition. Those cheapo cables have given me problems sometimes.
RE: RAW over HDMI - If you go to Blackmagic's support page and to the Cameras section, in the middle panel back in April 2018 they published a doc explaining how the Blackmagic Micro Studio camera could send RAW over SDI. Basically they took the approach that a 12-bit monochrome image (sensor readout) is smaller than the 10-bit 4:2:2 representation of the same resolution, so they used a unique bit packing scheme to cram the sensor readout into the YCrCb channels. This would certainly look like garbage on any normal monitor, so the expectation was that a developer who read and implemented this wacky spec could decode the image and save it externally.
I assume that Atomos is using a similar scheme to get RAW over HDMI from various cameras. The manufacturer and Atomos have to agree on some wild bit-packing schema that fits within the HDMI spec and only really works with those two devices, and voila, you have RAW video transmitted through a standard that isn't supposed to support it.
I was about to write something like that. RAW is different because it usually doesn't contain color information before debayering. It's the same logic that applies to Raw vs Tiff images, Raw being smaller because it's just luminosity data vs RGB data.
Personally I absolutely hate having a cable run out the left side of the camera and monitor. I find it such an awful placement, just asking to get bumped constantly and eventually kill the fragile ports, which seem to have most of their structural loads borne by only the solder joints holding the port to the PCB. There are a few monitors with rear ports, but every photo-style body still has them on the left side, pointed straight out.
Gerald you should have KB work on super-low-profile right-angle tips, which would sit flat against the camera body and redirect the cable either upward or forward. The current right-angle tips offer a slight improvement over a straight cable, but still offer plenty of opportunity and leverage to bork the ports after a few bumps.
I experimented with using the super thin, low-profile cables used for gimbals, but they still needed some external shielding from bumps, and I didn't want to make my cage any bulkier on that side.
I love my Undone cable, awesome color. As far as I know it works perfectly up to 60 fps with my FX3 and Ninja V (not plus). Still I had problems with gimbal use because it was too heavy and pulling the motors, so is the new straight cable really not that heavy for gimbal use because I would love to use it.
Came to this video on a suggestion from Mark Bennett. My Sony ZV-E10s HDMI will (would) black out very frequently for no apparent reason, and getting it to reproduce this HDMI cutout was maddening. I loved the image from this camera and will probably re-buy one in the hopes that it's a cable issue and not an issue with the camera's micro HDMI port. I'll try one of your left angle coil cables. I do wish someone like SmallRig made an HDMI clamp for their ZV-E10 cage as a further bit of insurance against potential port failure.
This is timely! I was using Atomos HDMI cables with the FX30 and they struggled to deliver 4K24 to the monitor and 60 was right out. I’ll be ordering some of these!
Thanks Gerald and Kondor Blue. it is very refreshing to see this kind of honesty from a creator and a brand. This alone made me switch to their products, which by the way are great :)
Hey Gerald, please ask them to distribute through Amazon in Europe. It's much easier to get them with the free shipping.
i don't need an HDMI cable at the moment, but i love this approach and transparency. i do need a lamp, however, so planning to hold out until Gerald makes one. just gonna sit here in the dark with my breakfast cereal until then.
This is the kind of stuff that fuels my component compatibility nightmares and leads to full un-bought online shopping carts and indecisive “place order” resignation.
Sometimes you randomly run across decency and it takes you off-guard. I’ll always check undone cables first when I’m shopping. In fact I just purchased a 4k 60 purple cable two minutes ago.
I wonder if it’s a HDCP handshake issue. I work for a internet/cable provider and we have issues with certain tvs with our newer set top boxes and those issues change between tvs with firmware updates. It could be an issue between the devices and the camera. Not really sure if it could be an issue but just tossing it out there.
It’s time for a “undone certified” label
Sony A7SIII and Atomos Ninja V+ confirmed to be no-go combo at 4K60 with M1 coiled cable. Thank you for the transparency and follow-up, Gerald. 👍🏼😎
You're going to need a good oscilloscope and multimeter, and then you can test the signal stability and voltage and add a section to all your reviews showing how well each camera adheres to the HDMI spec at various resolutions/framerates/bit depths. Then we can understand who to blame for these compatibility issues. 🙂
Seriously, though... I think the HDMI spec says each pin needs to stay within 5% of 5V at 55mA. Differential pairs need to be 100 ohms but individual signals need to be 50 ohms, but differential coupling drives individual lines below 50 ohms. I imagine that at higher data rates you're more likely to start seeing signals get out of spec, but ... the spec is tricky enough that you could also run into situations where everybody could say they're adhering to the spec even though you're seeing issues. And there are plenty other issues that could arise just from the R/G/B/clock or other payloads having weird things that may or may not be in-spec but aren't supported at the other end...
What I’d pay for there to be an HDMI on our Komodo… the cruddy SDI is gonzo so we’re left to focus using the small LCD since the app isn’t sharp
I just bought the 17in cable from Kondor Blue wishing there was an 18in. Now I guess I'll have to get another cable 😅 love this slight extension so thank you for that!
Haven't had any issues with the M1 Cable on the A7IV, love it! Glad to see you guys looking out for problems and fixing them!
This is great! I was disapointed I had to return my cables because of inconsistency issues with 4k60 on the a7siii and the ninja v. Looking forward to picking up the new cables!
Sounds like you need a collab with Linus Media Group, who has the HDMI testing kit and might be able to nail down a reason. I'd like to see how well Undone cables hold up under their testing.
You should definitely try to contact Linus Tech Tips about this. They're very interested in cable signal integrity inconsistencies and have made videos in the past about testing signal integrity
I really thought I was going insane. My XT-3 will behave very strange when connected to the Ninja V @ 4k60. Appreciate the info in this vid!
Amazing, you got my sub
As a Canadian living in England Im thrilled by this in many ways! I need these for the Shogun7/Sony a7ii rig I'm using,I'm CERTAIN it won't disappoint !!
Electrical engineer here. I’d guess that this has something to with signal integrity, and/or vendors not being truly spec compliant. Some topics that may relate to or explain the discrepancies: impedance matching, insertion loss, return loss, channel crosstalk/isolation.
This was a great explanation, especially of something that can't really be explained. Also a very nice policy to support customers that really need the higher spec cables.
As much as we struggle now with HDMI variations, limitations, and similar issues it is the epitome of simplicity and compatibility compared to previous struggles with various video "standards", not to mention even earlier asynchronous communication protocols where you needed the right connector, possibly a crossover, sometimes with various pins connected together, then you needed to match bit rate / encoding, start and stop bits, parity, terminal type, modem commands, etc. etc. etc. and this was considered _normal_, as in, needed to be specified / discovered / adjusted for every connection, service, device, cable, etc.
So there is much to be thankful for in the world of cables and connections compared to the last 10, 20, 30 years. And, now we have purple cables, so that is another nice thing.
I have this issue with my a7SIII and Ninja V and been giving me head aches since day one as I reallly like these cables.
Clean for the transparancy of the swap, like this man
Huh this explains why my KondorBlue had issues with my a7S III and Shinobi. I’ve actually found SmallRig’s cables to be perfect for recording ProRes LT in my Ninja V, but I might give your 18” a shot!
I've been using your purple hdmi cable with my R5 and my Ninja V+ and it's performed superbly! I love it!
This is awesome. I love the look of the purple cable and bought one as soon as I saw your original video, but I too was having issues at 4k60 with the A7SIII and Ninja V+ combo. Sometimes I'd even have issues at 4K30, with the monitor repeatedly dropping signal from the camera. I'm going to see if there are any firmware updates for the V+ I've missed and hope that I have some success like you did. If not, I'll look into a cable replacement. Not surprised but still really glad to see the thoroughness and care that you, as well as Kondor Blue, have for the community.
Edit: So I decided to setup my A7SIII and Ninja V+ with the original GU+KB cable prior to doing any firmware updates. The last time I was on a shoot it was so unstable that I just opted to disconnect the Ninja V+ entirely, but now it was working flawlessly at even 4K60 without the signal cutting out once even though I'd not updated the firmware. Really highlights what you were talking about with how weird and seemingly unpredictable the issue is. I have updated the firmware either way and hopefully that will ensure that the issue won't recur in the future, but again I really applaud you and Kondor Blue taking the time to provide a reliable product to the community where reliability is a critical factor in everything we do.
For better or for worse, the expensive Atomos cables have never failed me for any formats or framerates I've ever needed.
@LinusTechTips we need you
Ok i just recieved that Kondor Blue Undone and tried it out, and i love it it's nice and flexible and fits perfect using my Ninja V+
I'm still trying to get use to this Sony Fx30 I was a Fuji X-T4 guy for a couple years and so it takes getting use to a new system.
I'm going to stick with this Sony for a while then Maybe Upgrade to the Sony FX6 Full-Frame Once i get use to this Fx30 for a year or so.
Any way love your dedication to all this and i know you just got a New Son, Grads on that...
So any way Great HDMI cable Love it...
In regards to V1 cables, actually, Amazon is selling the V1 cables and I purchased them so going to have to return them. I checked the SKU and it's the V1 SKU. The blue cables seem to already be the 4k60 spec so I went with those.
Dear Kondor Blue, I'd love a black cable for the Atomos Battery Eliminator!
Coming very soon!!
Let’s gooo.. love my Kondor blue cable but now I need the Undone one! Awesome collab!
yah, cable shenanigans are a nightmare to deal with
I got 3 purple HDMI and three blue micro HDMI. I’m running a 2 XH2S and 1 XH2 with a Ninja V+ and 2 Ninja V operation.
So far so good, zero issues with the mark 1 cables. When I was running my XT3/XT4 combo with the blue cables I never had any issues either.
10/10 would recommend Kondor Blue.
its always great when companies state the hard facts and reasons why they do things!
Thanks Gerald, as always, for making tech aspects of cameras and tools more understandable and fun ❤
I don't even have the product but I appreciate this. When I need new cables I will purchase one of yours.
I used my cable for my bmpcc 4k which only outputs 1080p on its hdmi port so either cable will work for me. Plus I only record 24fps not 60fps 🙂
yer hands down the most helpful and easy to learn from. I fully enjoy how you do yer thing! thanks for so much great information in a way that is always well thought out and a pleasure to take in!
8k raw 12 bit actually only takes up little more space than 4k 10bit (both 4:4:4)
Raw is not debayered meaning each pixel uses 12bit while a usual signal is debayered using 3x10bit=30bit per pixel. Doing the math 8k 12bit raw takes up 47,46Mb per frame while 4k 10bit takes up 29,66Mb per frame. This obviously does not contain any metadata and is frame rate independent but the concept should still apply when talking uncompressed.
This is an ad I will not skip
Very forthcoming and professional.
We need longer Undone x Kondor Blue cables please 🙏🏼
And thanks for the lower UK shipping costs!! 😊
We have up to 7ft in Blue and soon up to 25ft! Maybe we can push the Gerald line this route next year also.
@@KONDORBLUE that’s awesome 🙏🏼 looking forward to that!
Yesssssssssss that's awesome that you managed to get your cables in Gosselin Stores in Québec! The shipping was the only thing holding me back previously!
I tried 4 different HDMI cables with my A7SIII and Ninja V for recording 4k60 Prores Raw (including Kondor Blue). The ONLY one that works 100% of the time is a monoprice 8k60 1ft (pn 139475).
Thanks for the update and transparency.
Q: Did any testing reveal if coiled cables were more prone to performance degradation than straight cables?
Cheers. And yes, in some cases it did seem the coiled had a harder time than straight.
The graphic at the beginning with your face over the jingle. On a purple shirt. I’d buy that!
Appreciate you for not wanting to add to unneeded E Waste.
The reason that Raw 8k is possible over HDMI 2.0 is because raw video requires much less bandwidth than uncompressed video. Raw video has not been de-bayered therfore you only have 1 value per pixel (usually up to 16bits) instead of 3. Compared to uncompressed 10 bit video an equivalent 16 bit raw data stream would only require just over half the bandwidth.
For example 4k 60p 10bit 4:4:4 uncompressed requires (3840 x 2160 x 10 x 3 x 60/1024^3) 13.9gbps of bandwidth.
8k 30p 16bit raw would require (7680 x 4320 x 16 x 30/1024^3) 14.8gbps of bandwidth
I thought some of these HDMI raw flavours were "partially debayered". Truthfully, I don't know exactly what is being done on the camera side vs recorder. But you made a good point! 👍
It's possible. As you mentioned camera manufacturers tend to be very vague about how they implement external raw. As far as I know the HDMI spec doesn't natively support it so it will be a proprietary formatting that just uses HDMI as a high speed data link.
Regarding the inconsistencies of how different cameras behave with cables, I suspect it will be down to the specific HDMI chipset used in each camera. I presume they will be using of the shelf chips from TI or Analog Devices for example. These chips all have different behaviours regarding their tolerance of noise, crosstalk and other cable related issues. Some simply work better than others.
Definitely do a collab with Linus Tech Tips! You would get a great audience for this sort of high-bandwidth testing (pun intended) that requires in-depth knowledge of this technology.
Time for a trip to London...
Massive respect for showing such great integrity in this issue!!
Hmmm I just got my Kondra Blue cable today after waiting 4 months for my A1's. Can I use this cable in all video modes?
So far your cables work well with the Sony a7siii through a wireless monitor dongle. Appreciate you offering such a generous exchange policy. I also need to reach out to kondor because one of the levels popped out of my rig.
I hate HDMI. I wish every connection were SDI. Simple single BNC connection that carries video and multiple audio channels like HDMI, and is easily field-repairable.
Hey, can you do a hardware test with DR Studio. I am trying to figure out what to upgrade on my pc but can’t find a bottleneck. I don’t know if it’s my graphics, cpu, memory or storage. I don’t think it is any of them because none of them are being fully utilized, but yeah… I just can’t figure it out
Very useful video from a warning and educational stand point. Would love to see you make a Collab with Linus tech tips on this subject though! They have a very good video on why it's not just camera that are weird but the HDMI standard that is bad, but going deeper with tech expert and a video expert could be very nice 🙂
Would love to see this! Especially with their in-depth LAB testing getting off the ground.
These Condor Blue (and purple) cables look great, but they're all less than 3 feet long. What I really need is more like HDMI 2.1 @ 25 feet.
Well that saves me all the time and money - thanks GU!