★THIS VIDEO WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY★ Woodturners Wonders is a small, family business that specializes in sharpening gear and innovative products for wood turners and wood workers. DEFINITELY worth checking out! woodturnerswonders.com/ *My hand tool collection includes premium tools from Bridge City Tool Works:* bridgecitytools.com/ *Please help support us by using the link above for a quick look around!* (If you use one of these affiliate links, we may receive a small commission) *Tools used in this video:* *Some other useful links:* -More videos on our website: stumpynubs.com/ -Subscribe to our e-Magazine: stumpynubs.com/browse-and-subscribe/ -Check out our project plans: stumpynubs.com/product-category/plans/ -Instagram: instagram.com/stumpynubs/ -Twitter: twitter.com/StumpyNubs ★SOME OF MY FAVORITE CHEAP TOOLS★ -123 Blocks: lddy.no/vpij -Mechanical Pencils: amzn.to/2PA7bwK -Lumber pencil: amzn.to/2QtwZjv -Pocket Measuring Tape: amzn.to/2kNTlI9 -Irwin Drill Bit Gauge: amzn.to/2AwTkQg -Nut/Bolt/Screw Gauge: amzn.to/2CuvxSK -Self-Centering Punch: amzn.to/2QvbcrC -Self-Centering Bits: amzn.to/2xs71UW -Angle Cube: lddy.no/10nam -Steel Ruler: lddy.no/10mv7 -Utility knife: amzn.to/3nfhIiv -Center-Finding Ruler: lddy.no/10nak -Bit & Blade Cleaner: amzn.to/2TfvEOI -Digital depth gauge: amzn.to/3mwRf2x -Wood Glue: amzn.to/3mqek6M -Spade Bits: amzn.to/3j8XPtD
A wise man once said, "Always carry a knife and a sharpening stone with you, that way if you ever get lost in the woods, you can just sit down and start sharpening your knife. Pretty soon someone will come along to tell you that you're doing it wrong."
There's also one from the world of data infrastructure. Always carry around a short piece of fiber optic cable so if you ever get lost you can bury it in the ground and then when the guy with the backhoe comes to dig through it, you can ask to use his phone.
At work I use an old steak knife for rough trims on uncured rubber. Long story short it doesn't need a fine edge because it gets abused and the material is soft, so many times I just knock the flats down with a file. At first the part of me that takes pride in sharpening my personal knives was just waiting for someone to happen along with their two cents...and they did. Except they understood what I was doing! No questioning the rough (but serviceable) file edge, no, they chastised running the file in both directions. (After some searching I'm not convinced it hurts the file but I did change to forward-only filing for shop optics. Either way it never fails: Someone will see and someone will comment.)
Similar arguments on knife and bushcraft channels. I’d read in a forum that if you ever got lost in the woods, sit down to sharpen your knife and pretty soon someone will come along to tell you you’re doing it wrong. 😂. Excellent video like all of them.
The emotional arguments always bring me back to a directive in Japanese manufacturing: "Go to the Real Place. Look at the Real Thing. Consider the Real Circumstances." As usual, you do this well!
Agreed, but there is an element James didn't mention, which I think is the real point of both how one cares for any tools and what you are looking to discover in any "gemba." That's the attitude of care and devotion to the craft - call it fussiness or just being persnickety about one's tools. The attitude is critical, but that does not make one person's little nits about fussiness some sort of universal truth. I prefer a flat single bevel on my edge tools, but mainly because when I'm fussing to get them just so, I occasionally glance up at the poster of the Studley tool chest that is framed on the wall. It's a way of reminding myself to slow down and try to be at least half as careful as Henry O. was. Studley used a single flat bevel, and it is actually quite a challenge to get those just right every time you do it, but the effort reminds me of what I'm about, so I find that it is worth it, but that's me.
How many wood workers know or have the skill to sharpen a tool properly? Yes, they improve it but for perfection I doubt it. Wheel hollow the tool and hand sharpening convexes the tool as people are not machines and tend to rock the tool as they slide it back and forth.
@@charlemagnesclock I think the thing often missed when chasing sharpening perfection is that while you can get an edge absurdly sharp with perfect technique and tons of effort, it won't stay that way for long. A few cuts into some actual wood and it's down to just very sharp, which takes a lot less effort and fussing about, and which most quality tool steel will maintain for a decent amount of time. So, unless you're sharpening the edge every 5 cuts or so, you're not going to see a significant benefit from being obsessive about it. Sharpening the tool to the "good enough" point, more often, will serve you better.
@@joewilson4436 and @ tonysheerness2427 I'm hardly obsessive, but I think you have missed my point. The sharpening routine doesn't matter that much in terms of the edge created or being maintained, provided that it does what you need it to do. What does matter more than a little is the attitude you have as you work. The way you care for your tools is a simple routine that is personal and which can help you focus. So debating techniques is not something I find interesting, while talking about the routines people use to help them focus does. Now having said that, and this is something I mentioned to James privately once, there is a whole different way to think about edge tool sharpening. He has observed in more than one of his videos that the edge on a chisel or plane iron is the result of two planes intersecting (or one plane and one minor concavity). We tend to think of the flat side as something we prepare and lap or strop, while we tend to think of the bevel side as the side where the real sharpening is done. The reverse of that works just as well, if not better in some cases. I would argue that the "ura" or hollow area on the flat side of a Japanese chisel naturally draws you into thinking of the flat side as the side where most of your sharpening strokes are done, while the lap or strop strokes can then be done on the bevel side, but again, that's hardly gospel. It's just a different way of thinking. That said, as your sharpening during the life of a Japanese chisel slowly consumes its length, it is super critical that the flat side be worked sufficiently that the ura never intersects the cutting edge. You have to remove at least as much material from the flat side as is removed on the bevel or eventually that ura will creep into the edge, and that would not be a good thing.
Great video, I've never bothered to do the math but whenever I saw someone complaining about a hollow grind I always thought to myself - "if you're that concerned about it, offset by about 3 degrees and it will be fine". Turns out it was 4 degrees. Close enough! Even less on wider grind wheels I imagine. The point about finishing up on finer grit stones and getting a nice, easy micro bevel makes a ton of sense too. Perhaps the only legitimate concern left here is heat build up, so that might be worth covering if you make another video.
Great video James, yes there's a lot out there that love to correct because they feel they are smarter and then there's the aggitators who love to stir the pot. I for one like to make my own decision from information given and go with that until I am shown a better way. You haven't steered me wrong that I know of and I appreciate how you do share things. Stay safe and keep up the good videos and fun you have around there. Fred.
I hollow grind then hone and I've always felt a little guilty about it ever since the woodwork technician at my art college told me it was bad practice. He didn't explain why it was bad (he advocated using the side of the wheel) and your brilliant explanation has taken away all that guilt. Thank you!
I've used the side for years, mostly because I made my own grinder and it worked out easier for me. Have used pretty much every other method too, mostly because it's what I had available. Anyone who gets fixated on this sort of minutae generally doesn't do enough wood working and is more concerned with having nice tools, like the guy who washes his car every weekend but never drives it.
Thanks for this clarity. I have always been dubious of the claims for loss of durability when doing a hollow grind. I regularly use Barr framing chisels with a hollow grind (from cbn wheels) and a micro bevel done by hand. These chisels take a massive beating as they get whacked a lot harder than 1/4" chisel, and I have never had a problem. The only factor that I have found to effect durability is (obviously) the quality of the steel itself.
Great point, and not only the quality of the steel, but the type of steel as well. If you're bashing away, you want a softer steel, as it's less likely to chip away and should hold its edge longer, and for rough work it's more about force than precission, so being perfectly sharp isn't really a factor. If you're doing paring or other delicate work, a harder, more brittle steel is better - you can get a sharper edge on it and as long as you're not abusing it, the edge should last a good amount of time. Personally, I use my Japanese chisels with their very hard white steel edges for most fine work, and use cheaper chisels for rough material removal. That said, I occasionally bash away with Japanese chisel and have only ever chipped one when I dropped it on concrete. So I don't think they're all that delicate.
I love it when you apply logic to topics that make no sense to logical thinking people. Blowing up the diagram to make tiny things look important is like when I see people change the Y scale on graphs in business.
I appreciate the video. Good info and great job explaining what happens at the tip of the edge - where the work occurs. I grind my 'rough' chisels (the ones to beat on a 2x4) on a regular bench grinder with a bevel somewhere between steep and gentle. Blades for my bench planes, nicer chisels, etc. hand sharpened with a bevel somewhere between here and there, until they are sharp and work. Anyone that says it *has* to be 30 degrees hasn't a clue. 30deg is like a combination saw blade - it's the good, all around, bevel and where you start from when you're learning. Some woods require steeper, some shallower. Different parts of the same board need different bevels (end vs. cross vs. with grain) Some tools like steeper (lathe), and some shallower. Heck, even different hand planes require different bevels.
Great stuff. I suppose really if you sharpen a certain way and the tool works the way you want it then it’s the correct way. If your happy your happy continue 😂 im a spoon carver and I just feel into the TH-cam trap of “ your doing your sharpening wrong so I followed the “ correct way” and now I have 2 knifes that are shite to use for me, so im going back to how I use to sharpen. Well I learnt something
Like much on the internet, much ado about nothing. As a wise man said, "Tiny things can become big problems if we make them out to be so. Just because a problem may exist in theory and in internet debates, doesn't mean it will in actual practice when you put the steel to wood." Good discussion. Thank you.
Fantastic I have people who regularly try and argue this and I always tell them it’s really not a factor but you did an awesome job of showing the why- will be sharing with everyone
Thanks for the lesson James. You can actually calculate the arc starting at the point to whatever length away want, but as you pointed out, this more for theory than for practice. I love your detailed explanations because I’m a detail guy too, but I try to be practical: don’t sweat the small stuff.
Thank you for sharing this with us today. Love the drawings to show the real steel. Everyone stay safe, happy and healthy. From Henrico County Virginia
My old trade school taught us to hollow grind for the sake of making honing easier and making sure you spend more time working and less time on maintenance. Cool to see the diagrams!
Knowing and understanding precision and accuracy and at what scales they cause effective change can help one from getting stuck between "right on" and "close enough" for the need at hand. Great visual lesson!
Thanks for your quality content - I man it. You're one of the few sources that are reliable. Most of people with these claims don't even understand the difference between grinding, sharpening, honing and stropping even less so, when to use what.
When I was at school, our carpentry shop used a four foot wet grinding wheel turned by hand. This stood in the center of the workshop and we were encouraged to use it whenever our tools became dull. The size meant minimal hollow grind and after stropping almost none.
@@kwilliams2239. It was fine millstone. The dressing was done with a drop down bar and a devil stone. This was the 1950’s so no chance of CBN, it passed through a trough of water and I seem to remember getting a bit wet. The workshop had 12 benches and we each worked at one end, each bench had a vice at each end and an under bench cupboard for tools. At one end there was a lathe, where I did my first turning, a bowl for my mother, which I still have. I’m 80 this year and am still turning.
Your video once again clearly presents the truth. Unfortunate that so many lack the common sense to understand this in the first place and are easily duped by the nonsense out there. As an aside I want to buy an 8" CBN wheel but need a 3/4" arbor bore in the wheel. All the ones I've seen are 5/8" and won't work with my Baldor 8107W. Do you know of a source? I could have a machine shop bore it out, but that would make it cost prohibitive.
Excellent video, James. Most of my sharpening is done on a CBN wheel, sharpening woodturning gouges. Woodturners seem to prefer the hollow grind. Your video shows how little difference it likely makes over sharpening on a flat belt. thank you.
Personally I have different angled chisels for different purposes, varying from 40° to even 15° and sometimes even sharpened a skew for easily cleaning up end grain of dovetails or tenons and flattening faces with a slicing motion. What I like about the concave edge is it requires less honing to get a sharp edge. I maintain sharpness with stones and repair damaged edges with the grinding wheels. In the end only the point where two faces of the cutting edge meet is important for sharpness
That should settle the argument! It should but it won't. Some folks just won't bend. But you have done all you could. You certainly made it clear to me. Thank you for sharing. Have a great day and stay safe.🙂🙂 Will you be at SWAT this year? It would be great to see you there.
Good stuff James, I've rough in my chisels at around 25 degrees, by the time I get my secondary bevel done on a flat stone I'm at 27-29 degrees, not enough difference to make a difference. When that edge gets to where I need a touch up, I strop it. Some guys go for a tertiary bevel rather than a strop. It works well too. Most guys figure out what works. You can cheat that bevel to less than 20 degrees if all you work with is soft wood like pine.
'I doubt this will end the debate entirely.' Brilliant understatement. I don't have a horse in this race, as I have never used a grinding wheel. However, your description was eminently sensible and SHOULD end the debate entirely. But it wont. Cheers.
In theori is does weaken the edge slightly, but the change is so minute that it cant be mesured or felt in any way. And even if it did what would be the problem. If you saved time sharpening everytime because of the hollow what does it matter if you have to sharpen once or twice more per year. You still saved time.
Totally agree; plus that hollow grind from the wheel is only hollow at the tip until the FIRST time it is honed, whether on a bench stone or a little hand CBN card, which I use often as I work - same result, a new sharp edge and automatically corrected angle.
I used to maintain a college wood room. Teenagers are not kind on chisels. Our 8" CBN wheel was a godsend and I used to set it at 30°, with a 35° bevel. Razor sharp and quite durable. (Until some goose hits a nail...) As well as young men's fingers, we were cutting Mountain Ash and other pretty hard timbers, as well as radiata pine and they got it done nicely.
It is always interesting, in knives especially, how the grind and geometry can make a big difference depending on the intended use. Obviously a chisel has very different needs than a knife. But the principles are the same.
As another YTer in a totally different subject asks: Is it enough of a difference to make a difference? If wood workers can't tell a difference when putting chisel to wood, then no, it's not enough difference to make a difference.
The hallow grind itself isn't an issue as you point out. But the one thing that may be of concern for some might be changing the temper which can be done on a wheel but I haven't seen anybody move fast enough by hand stoning to generate the heat required.
Said the Caterpillar as he expanded on his advice to Alice. And, by 'temper,' he meant what we call 'proportion' - of chemical make-up (relates to heat generation) or physical size (angle, whatever the measurement dimensions)
Yeah it's all really nice stuff, but today I was really happy cutting with my chisel. even across endgrain it just worked finally, right. So I'm good sharpening on my glass plate. I don't hate on super sharpening, if you can do it quickly, I'd say it would be nice. But on the other hand, like 10 cuts and you're back to a sharpness that's equivalent to ''normal sharp''. so to maintain that sharpness is probably not really feasible but hey I'm a total sharpening noob so
"Super sharp" vanishes quickly when the edge is used on any wood except maybe balsa. Then the edge becomes "just" sharp. It will hang on your thumbnail, cut you really well, and generally do all the tasks you want it to do. I've learned to shoot for sharp and leave it there unless there is some particular call for extreme sharpness like carving.
Like most things woodworking. So many shops filled with hyper sharp tools, jigs, workbenches, tool holders, pegboards, drawers and shelves. So little actual carpentry, useful furniture for a home, real life projects. I don't have time for crazy sharp chisels honed to precise degrees, I've got stuff to build and regular sharp works just fine. My shop is nothing to look at, but what I make is great.
old tool catalogues often mention voided warranty in case of iron mistreatment, extreme hollow ground being of of these cases. But these diagrams dont show the hollow going right to the edge, but rather offset behind, basically thinning out blade on the circumference of the wheel. Very much like a straight razor. I think of it like a long forgotten practice
Are you telling me the amoeba I see under a microscope is not actually an inch long? If only we had known that when you zoom in on something 100x that it changes the perspective, lol. Solid video. People starting debates based on extreme magnification fits so perfectly within the woodworking debate world.
My question about hollow grinding has always been about getting back to a flat grind. Is it hollow grind, forever? Is it difficult to get back to a flat grind with a stone? The video mentions the two ends (of a hollow grind) being used to support the tool when using a stone freehand. I would take that as a flat grind after a hollow.
at the end of this video you should have said "and now i need to get back to work" and started to use a chisel on a marshmellow....*end scene* hahah :)
You're so right James... If they MUST have a flat grind, why don't they just use the side of the wheel. Surely they can make a jig for that. Rhetorical question.
★THIS VIDEO WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY★
Woodturners Wonders is a small, family business that specializes in sharpening gear and innovative products for wood turners and wood workers. DEFINITELY worth checking out! woodturnerswonders.com/
*My hand tool collection includes premium tools from Bridge City Tool Works:* bridgecitytools.com/
*Please help support us by using the link above for a quick look around!*
(If you use one of these affiliate links, we may receive a small commission)
*Tools used in this video:*
*Some other useful links:*
-More videos on our website: stumpynubs.com/
-Subscribe to our e-Magazine: stumpynubs.com/browse-and-subscribe/
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A wise man once said, "Always carry a knife and a sharpening stone with you, that way if you ever get lost in the woods, you can just sit down and start sharpening your knife. Pretty soon someone will come along to tell you that you're doing it wrong."
Same story, but deck of cards - play a game of Solitaire. Someone will tell you to place the red six on the black seven. ;)
You are a genius!!!
@@fredinit Same story again with the ingredients of a martini. Someone will say "That's not how you make a martini."
There's also one from the world of data infrastructure. Always carry around a short piece of fiber optic cable so if you ever get lost you can bury it in the ground and then when the guy with the backhoe comes to dig through it, you can ask to use his phone.
At work I use an old steak knife for rough trims on uncured rubber. Long story short it doesn't need a fine edge because it gets abused and the material is soft, so many times I just knock the flats down with a file. At first the part of me that takes pride in sharpening my personal knives was just waiting for someone to happen along with their two cents...and they did. Except they understood what I was doing! No questioning the rough (but serviceable) file edge, no, they chastised running the file in both directions.
(After some searching I'm not convinced it hurts the file but I did change to forward-only filing for shop optics. Either way it never fails: Someone will see and someone will comment.)
Similar arguments on knife and bushcraft channels. I’d read in a forum that if you ever got lost in the woods, sit down to sharpen your knife and pretty soon someone will come along to tell you you’re doing it wrong. 😂. Excellent video like all of them.
Nobody has explained hollow grind to me before, yet I’ve heard it mentioned a lot, thanks
Nice to see somebody calling out internet BS.
Kudos to you for your willingness to offer an in-depth video of common sense.
I sharpen all tools to a 90 degree edge and use a 5 pound sledgehammer to force the cut on everything. No exceptions.
Maximum effort 😎
You win the internet. This comment is pure gold, LOL
Wait a minute...so you're telling me that chisels have to be sharpened ?
He was just kidding. Just get a bigger hammer if that chisel isn’t working so well!
Is sharpening what you’re supposed to do after you use the chisel to open the finish can?
@@richtes Only when the end of the chisel starts to look like cousin Cleetus' teeth
I have just been buying new ones when they stop cutting well. Next thing you're tell me is that I don't need a table saw when the blade dulls!
No need to sharpen them. They work just fine to open paint cans when a little dull.
The emotional arguments always bring me back to a directive in Japanese manufacturing: "Go to the Real Place. Look at the Real Thing. Consider the Real Circumstances." As usual, you do this well!
Agreed, but there is an element James didn't mention, which I think is the real point of both how one cares for any tools and what you are looking to discover in any "gemba." That's the attitude of care and devotion to the craft - call it fussiness or just being persnickety about one's tools. The attitude is critical, but that does not make one person's little nits about fussiness some sort of universal truth. I prefer a flat single bevel on my edge tools, but mainly because when I'm fussing to get them just so, I occasionally glance up at the poster of the Studley tool chest that is framed on the wall. It's a way of reminding myself to slow down and try to be at least half as careful as Henry O. was. Studley used a single flat bevel, and it is actually quite a challenge to get those just right every time you do it, but the effort reminds me of what I'm about, so I find that it is worth it, but that's me.
How many wood workers know or have the skill to sharpen a tool properly? Yes, they improve it but for perfection I doubt it. Wheel hollow the tool and hand sharpening convexes the tool as people are not machines and tend to rock the tool as they slide it back and forth.
@@charlemagnesclock I think the thing often missed when chasing sharpening perfection is that while you can get an edge absurdly sharp with perfect technique and tons of effort, it won't stay that way for long. A few cuts into some actual wood and it's down to just very sharp, which takes a lot less effort and fussing about, and which most quality tool steel will maintain for a decent amount of time. So, unless you're sharpening the edge every 5 cuts or so, you're not going to see a significant benefit from being obsessive about it. Sharpening the tool to the "good enough" point, more often, will serve you better.
@@joewilson4436 and @ tonysheerness2427 I'm hardly obsessive, but I think you have missed my point. The sharpening routine doesn't matter that much in terms of the edge created or being maintained, provided that it does what you need it to do. What does matter more than a little is the attitude you have as you work. The way you care for your tools is a simple routine that is personal and which can help you focus. So debating techniques is not something I find interesting, while talking about the routines people use to help them focus does. Now having said that, and this is something I mentioned to James privately once, there is a whole different way to think about edge tool sharpening. He has observed in more than one of his videos that the edge on a chisel or plane iron is the result of two planes intersecting (or one plane and one minor concavity). We tend to think of the flat side as something we prepare and lap or strop, while we tend to think of the bevel side as the side where the real sharpening is done. The reverse of that works just as well, if not better in some cases. I would argue that the "ura" or hollow area on the flat side of a Japanese chisel naturally draws you into thinking of the flat side as the side where most of your sharpening strokes are done, while the lap or strop strokes can then be done on the bevel side, but again, that's hardly gospel. It's just a different way of thinking. That said, as your sharpening during the life of a Japanese chisel slowly consumes its length, it is super critical that the flat side be worked sufficiently that the ura never intersects the cutting edge. You have to remove at least as much material from the flat side as is removed on the bevel or eventually that ura will creep into the edge, and that would not be a good thing.
excellent advice.
Another fact based comprehensive video that blows all those other theories out of the water. Keep it up, James.
Great video, I've never bothered to do the math but whenever I saw someone complaining about a hollow grind I always thought to myself - "if you're that concerned about it, offset by about 3 degrees and it will be fine". Turns out it was 4 degrees. Close enough! Even less on wider grind wheels I imagine. The point about finishing up on finer grit stones and getting a nice, easy micro bevel makes a ton of sense too. Perhaps the only legitimate concern left here is heat build up, so that might be worth covering if you make another video.
Heat build up is what the cup of water is for next to the grinder.... Take a stroke, have a dunk, stroke again.
@@arikbord2256 works till the second you burn the metall
If you are concerned about heat, get a wet stone. Just remember to remove the water before it freezes in the winter.
I believe James would recommend getting a CBN wheel and/or be mindful, pay attention to pressure, and take your time.
I really wish there were more people like you on TH-cam who says it as it is.
Thanks James and take care.
Cheers, Huw
Great video James, yes there's a lot out there that love to correct because they feel they are smarter and then there's the aggitators who love to stir the pot. I for one like to make my own decision from information given and go with that until I am shown a better way. You haven't steered me wrong that I know of and I appreciate how you do share things. Stay safe and keep up the good videos and fun you have around there. Fred.
I hollow grind then hone and I've always felt a little guilty about it ever since the woodwork technician at my art college told me it was bad practice. He didn't explain why it was bad (he advocated using the side of the wheel) and your brilliant explanation has taken away all that guilt. Thank you!
I've used the side for years, mostly because I made my own grinder and it worked out easier for me. Have used pretty much every other method too, mostly because it's what I had available. Anyone who gets fixated on this sort of minutae generally doesn't do enough wood working and is more concerned with having nice tools, like the guy who washes his car every weekend but never drives it.
wouldnt that grind one side sharper since the wheel's rotational velocity is larger farther from its center?
Ask anyone with a brain.... you never apply sideways force to a bench grinder wheel...... unless you want it to explode in your face.... 🤔😎🇦🇺👌
Your logic is undeniable, and your arguments concise. Teach these virtues to the people I work with.
Thanks for this clarity. I have always been dubious of the claims for loss of durability when doing a hollow grind. I regularly use Barr framing chisels with a hollow grind (from cbn wheels) and a micro bevel done by hand. These chisels take a massive beating as they get whacked a lot harder than 1/4" chisel, and I have never had a problem. The only factor that I have found to effect durability is (obviously) the quality of the steel itself.
Great point, and not only the quality of the steel, but the type of steel as well. If you're bashing away, you want a softer steel, as it's less likely to chip away and should hold its edge longer, and for rough work it's more about force than precission, so being perfectly sharp isn't really a factor. If you're doing paring or other delicate work, a harder, more brittle steel is better - you can get a sharper edge on it and as long as you're not abusing it, the edge should last a good amount of time. Personally, I use my Japanese chisels with their very hard white steel edges for most fine work, and use cheaper chisels for rough material removal. That said, I occasionally bash away with Japanese chisel and have only ever chipped one when I dropped it on concrete. So I don't think they're all that delicate.
I love it when you apply logic to topics that make no sense to logical thinking people. Blowing up the diagram to make tiny things look important is like when I see people change the Y scale on graphs in business.
Thanks! Love it. Keep on pointing us toward more (and better) wood working practice, and less armchair debate.
Excellent presentation, and use of geometry to boot! A win-win all around.
I appreciate the video. Good info and great job explaining what happens at the tip of the edge - where the work occurs. I grind my 'rough' chisels (the ones to beat on a 2x4) on a regular bench grinder with a bevel somewhere between steep and gentle. Blades for my bench planes, nicer chisels, etc. hand sharpened with a bevel somewhere between here and there, until they are sharp and work. Anyone that says it *has* to be 30 degrees hasn't a clue. 30deg is like a combination saw blade - it's the good, all around, bevel and where you start from when you're learning. Some woods require steeper, some shallower. Different parts of the same board need different bevels (end vs. cross vs. with grain) Some tools like steeper (lathe), and some shallower. Heck, even different hand planes require different bevels.
Thank you for helping us keep our tools and skills sharp.
Thanks a bunch, James! 😊
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Crystal clear presentation. Thanks for sharing it
Great stuff. I suppose really if you sharpen a certain way and the tool works the way you want it then it’s the correct way. If your happy your happy continue 😂 im a spoon carver and I just feel into the TH-cam trap of “ your doing your sharpening wrong so I followed the “ correct way” and now I have 2 knifes that are shite to use for me, so im going back to how I use to sharpen. Well I learnt something
Like much on the internet, much ado about nothing. As a wise man said, "Tiny things can become big problems if we make them out to be so. Just because a problem may exist in theory and in internet debates, doesn't mean it will in actual practice when you put the steel to wood." Good discussion. Thank you.
Well said and the diagrams cuts to the point. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks, James! The diagrams were perfect & convincing. Appreciate it. Press on.
Fantastic I have people who regularly try and argue this and I always tell them it’s really not a factor but you did an awesome job of showing the why- will be sharing with everyone
Keep up the good work James. Straight, clean and factual. Best info. on the net. THANKS.
Thanks for the lesson James. You can actually calculate the arc starting at the point to whatever length away want, but as you pointed out, this more for theory than for practice. I love your detailed explanations because I’m a detail guy too, but I try to be practical: don’t sweat the small stuff.
Very nicely done.. Probably the best explanation on this subject I've heard. Thank you.
Good video. Very useful for newbies. So many keyboard woodworkers out there that aren't using 1. critical thinking, or 2. experience.
Thank you for sharing this with us today. Love the drawings to show the real steel. Everyone stay safe, happy and healthy. From Henrico County Virginia
I can TOTALLY feel the difference between a flat grind and a hollow grind. LOL! Yeah, right! Wood working noob, here, great info!
My old trade school taught us to hollow grind for the sake of making honing easier and making sure you spend more time working and less time on maintenance. Cool to see the diagrams!
Knowing and understanding precision and accuracy and at what scales they cause effective change can help one from getting stuck between "right on" and "close enough" for the need at hand. Great visual lesson!
Thankyou for another Brilliant Lesson . . . Chris . . . Norwich, England
Absolutely fantastic! So well said, and so concise.
Great stuff as always, James. So interesting and thank you for sharing 🌞
Thanks for your quality content - I man it. You're one of the few sources that are reliable.
Most of people with these claims don't even understand the difference between grinding, sharpening, honing and stropping even less so, when to use what.
When I was at school, our carpentry shop used a four foot wet grinding wheel turned by hand. This stood in the center of the workshop and we were encouraged to use it whenever our tools became dull. The size meant minimal hollow grind and after stropping almost none.
How did they dress the wheel? I wouldn't want to pay for a CBN wheel that large. Well, I wouldn't want to pay for any wheel that large.
@@kwilliams2239. It was fine millstone. The dressing was done with a drop down bar and a devil stone. This was the 1950’s so no chance of CBN, it passed through a trough of water and I seem to remember getting a bit wet. The workshop had 12 benches and we each worked at one end, each bench had a vice at each end and an under bench cupboard for tools. At one end there was a lathe, where I did my first turning, a bowl for my mother, which I still have. I’m 80 this year and am still turning.
@@mergrew0110 I hope I can still be turning after 70 years. I just started and I'm 70 now. 😁
@@kwilliams2239. Use it or lose it…………!🤡
Bringing the truth to the front, as always. Thank you again for your service to the woodworking community.
Your video once again clearly presents the truth. Unfortunate that so many lack the common sense to understand this in the first place and are easily duped by the nonsense out there.
As an aside I want to buy an 8" CBN wheel but need a 3/4" arbor bore in the wheel. All the ones I've seen are 5/8" and won't work with my Baldor 8107W. Do you know of a source? I could have a machine shop bore it out, but that would make it cost prohibitive.
woodturnerswonders.com/collections/3-4-arbor-cbn-wheels
@@StumpyNubs Wow, Thanks! I should have looked before I asked. 🤦♂
I like what you said in your closing remarks, yeah that's practically correct.
Excellent video, James. Most of my sharpening is done on a CBN wheel, sharpening woodturning gouges. Woodturners seem to prefer the hollow grind. Your video shows how little difference it likely makes over sharpening on a flat belt. thank you.
Awesome video! Sharpening has always been a bit of a mystery.
Hey Man, I know this has nothing to do with woodworking but you look really good. Keep up the good work.
Personally I have different angled chisels for different purposes, varying from 40° to even 15° and sometimes even sharpened a skew for easily cleaning up end grain of dovetails or tenons and flattening faces with a slicing motion.
What I like about the concave edge is it requires less honing to get a sharp edge.
I maintain sharpness with stones and repair damaged edges with the grinding wheels. In the end only the point where two faces of the cutting edge meet is important for sharpness
That should settle the argument! It should but it won't. Some folks just won't bend. But you have done all you could. You certainly made it clear to me. Thank you for sharing. Have a great day and stay safe.🙂🙂 Will you be at SWAT this year? It would be great to see you there.
God is in the details and so is Stumpy Nubs. Bravo for the math lesson sir. Well done.
Good stuff James, I've rough in my chisels at around 25 degrees, by the time I get my secondary bevel done on a flat stone I'm at 27-29 degrees, not enough difference to make a difference. When that edge gets to where I need a touch up, I strop it. Some guys go for a tertiary bevel rather than a strop. It works well too. Most guys figure out what works. You can cheat that bevel to less than 20 degrees if all you work with is soft wood like pine.
'I doubt this will end the debate entirely.' Brilliant understatement. I don't have a horse in this race, as I have never used a grinding wheel. However, your description was eminently sensible and SHOULD end the debate entirely. But it wont. Cheers.
In theori is does weaken the edge slightly, but the change is so minute that it cant be mesured or felt in any way. And even if it did what would be the problem. If you saved time sharpening everytime because of the hollow what does it matter if you have to sharpen once or twice more per year. You still saved time.
Thanks James
Thank you for your great advice and insight
Great video as always. Do I also detect less stumpy? ;) Looking quite good.
Great lesson. Thank you for sharing it James.
Always get great information from your videos. Thank you for taking the time to educate us all!
Thanks for all your helpful info, fantastic channel thank you so much !
Totally agree; plus that hollow grind from the wheel is only hollow at the tip until the FIRST time it is honed, whether on a bench stone or a little hand CBN card, which I use often as I work - same result, a new sharp edge and automatically corrected angle.
Another perfect explanation.
Great explanation. Thank you!
A little hello from France. Thanks for the lesson
Perfect reply!
Great breakdown with real examples
👍👍👍👍👍👍hollow grind and hone is how I was taught in shop class in the 80's. No issues yet lol
A very commonse video. Thank you for posting it.
I used to maintain a college wood room. Teenagers are not kind on chisels. Our 8" CBN wheel was a godsend and I used to set it at 30°, with a 35° bevel. Razor sharp and quite durable. (Until some goose hits a nail...) As well as young men's fingers, we were cutting Mountain Ash and other pretty hard timbers, as well as radiata pine and they got it done nicely.
Your info is always helpful. TY!
Wonderful clarity and useful facts, James. Thanks!
Interesting James, good analysis.
intelligent argument. thank you.
It is always interesting, in knives especially, how the grind and geometry can make a big difference depending on the intended use. Obviously a chisel has very different needs than a knife. But the principles are the same.
As another YTer in a totally different subject asks: Is it enough of a difference to make a difference? If wood workers can't tell a difference when putting chisel to wood, then no, it's not enough difference to make a difference.
All of these problems are solved easily with a high grade 60 meter diameter grinding wheel.
@@troy3456789 And a horse to turn it.
Thanks! This is the kind of video I stick around here for.
Amen, brother. Good on ya.
The hallow grind itself isn't an issue as you point out. But the one thing that may be of concern for some might be changing the temper which can be done on a wheel but I haven't seen anybody move fast enough by hand stoning to generate the heat required.
If you're getting your cutting edge hot enough to change the temper you're doing something wrong..
Said the Caterpillar as he expanded on his advice to Alice. And, by 'temper,' he meant what we call 'proportion' - of chemical make-up (relates to heat generation) or physical size (angle, whatever the measurement dimensions)
As always great video James with so much great information thanks for sharing
Good analysis.
Excellent as always!
Yeah it's all really nice stuff, but today I was really happy cutting with my chisel. even across endgrain it just worked finally, right. So I'm good sharpening on my glass plate. I don't hate on super sharpening, if you can do it quickly, I'd say it would be nice. But on the other hand, like 10 cuts and you're back to a sharpness that's equivalent to ''normal sharp''. so to maintain that sharpness is probably not really feasible but hey I'm a total sharpening noob so
"Super sharp" vanishes quickly when the edge is used on any wood except maybe balsa. Then the edge becomes "just" sharp. It will hang on your thumbnail, cut you really well, and generally do all the tasks you want it to do. I've learned to shoot for sharp and leave it there unless there is some particular call for extreme sharpness like carving.
Like most things woodworking.
So many shops filled with hyper sharp tools, jigs, workbenches, tool holders, pegboards, drawers and shelves.
So little actual carpentry, useful furniture for a home, real life projects.
I don't have time for crazy sharp chisels honed to precise degrees, I've got stuff to build and regular sharp works just fine. My shop is nothing to look at, but what I make is great.
Once again, Stumpy Nubs restores order to the universe. 😂 As always, great job, James!
I sharpen flat tools on a diamond lapping machine (for cutting/polishing gem stones). Fast and easy and leaves a mirror finish.
Thank you!
Excellent
Thanks for an informative video (as is your usual!)
Great video James
Well said. Thank you.
Me watching you hand sharpen a chisel is like a cat mesmerized by the birds out the window. 👌😂
old tool catalogues often mention voided warranty in case of iron mistreatment, extreme hollow ground being of of these cases.
But these diagrams dont show the hollow going right to the edge, but rather offset behind, basically thinning out blade on the circumference of the wheel. Very much like a straight razor.
I think of it like a long forgotten practice
Are you telling me the amoeba I see under a microscope is not actually an inch long? If only we had known that when you zoom in on something 100x that it changes the perspective, lol. Solid video. People starting debates based on extreme magnification fits so perfectly within the woodworking debate world.
Great Video… Thanks James!
My question about hollow grinding has always been about getting back to a flat grind. Is it hollow grind, forever? Is it difficult to get back to a flat grind with a stone? The video mentions the two ends (of a hollow grind) being used to support the tool when using a stone freehand. I would take that as a flat grind after a hollow.
at the end of this video you should have said "and now i need to get back to work" and started to use a chisel on a marshmellow....*end scene* hahah :)
Truth. Facts. Amen
This reminded me that I need to get my ice skates sharpened! Interesting video overall
thanks
Hollow grind the tool once, then it is easy to flat hone a new sharp edge on it many times before you need to hollow grind it again.
You're so right James... If they MUST have a flat grind, why don't they just use the side of the wheel. Surely they can make a jig for that. Rhetorical question.