Fantastic video and something that I really started to think about in the last 6 months of me playing dota. Every time when the opponents are dead I always started to look at: - the 3 waves (are our waves pushed in?) - the objectives on the map (rosh and towers) - do the opponents have glyph or not and what is their hero respawn time
BSJ I really loves these types of vides. not any tutorials, not tips and tricks but just talking about dota2''s fundamentals. I'm really passionate about dotas, and I feel like lately these types of video aren't really available anywhere. thanks for the vids
Absolute banger. As a new player still in super low ranks, the 5 stacking on wipe and making 0 progress anyway really hit home. It's a trap we are constantly falling into.
Started playing Dota 2 week ago. Found I’m a way better support than carry. Found pinging is amazingly helpful. And found this game is insanely channeling and hard. 😂
I have noticed that the games where I manage to get boots of travel 2 on any carry after getting six slotted, I always end up winning through split pushing alone even if my team is losing every single team fight with or without me. The problem is, if I get the boots too early, I'm still harmless. If I wait until six slotted, I only win if the game extends beyond 40 minutes. Surprise split pushing should be added to the mentioned ways of split pushing here, where you do it to end, not because you can face all your enemies alone in high ground, but because you can do it very quickly in a situation where the enemy is already engaged in a team fight against your team and if they just decided to run back or tp, they'll lose the fight, or die one after the other to me solo.
Great video, really looking forward to this series. Thank you for clearly communicating the decision making process, found it really insightful. Appreciate it! Keep up the good work.
This is incredible, I make this mistake all the time and think its absolutely normal in 3k MMR after taking rosh to run at a T2 tower but taking a step back, pushing in all the waves is 100% the right move
fun fact for 1k-5k games, if you leave the team after this fight on minute 23 after taking roshan and split up, tp to other side to "farm" creeps, you may get an outrage, abandone by your teammates for not pushing the close tower with aegis resulting frequently in losing the game after our correct decision :) unfortunately on low level this happens far more often then the correct scenario xD Legends love their death ball aegis pushes
I feel like glyph was the key here. If they didn't have the glyph they can quickly take the tower then deal with those lanes. Maybe force the glyph then tp to the other lanes?
Very simple tree IMO, I seem to win more when a team follows that, we've had a lot of T3 defense comebacks recently from just farming the map. I've been in 4k for 13 years though :( Can you go Hight Ground? -> no, Just farm and pressure the map/towers, Getting a T2 is not important if you can't go HG. Can you quick take Rosh/T2, and you already have key items? -> yes, Take T2/Rosh(get it respawning if winning) Are you losing? Would you lose a normal 5v5? -> yes, go farm the whole map until the enemy comes T3, get your key items.
The question was a little bit misleading as your face covered the glyph cooldowns :D To myself i said 'take T2 and then fix lanes until CD's are back up', as soon as the glyph came on it was time to leave.
I started coaching (i am 6k scrub) and I ended up thinking more about the "room collapsing" to explain it somehow to my students, it s so funny that at the end the feelings we have about the game come down to something very similar
might be an odd comment for a BSJ video, but this feels like another push for me to commit to learning Tinker support. and i say that because at the bottom tower after winning the team fight, they only really needed Troll to stay to take it, right? or did it not have to be troll? the map presence Tinker or NP can offer feels good, and going boots of travel feels greedy
On the flip side of this, I’ve been winning alot with global heroes like underlord that can farm solo and ult into teamfights. He’s also tanky enough to not be a good pickoff target
A lot of this really conflicts what i’ve learned from BSJ and others, isn’t the goal to take objectives while the enemy is dead? If they enemy is dead, it’s easy to take objectives, i really don’t think taking that T2 bot tower was worse than pushing those lanes, then they respawn and push out those lanes again cause we’re scared of legion and sf again. You’re not getting a tower back, that’s permanent map control, contrary to just having lanes pushed I’m starting to think now, is this what you do when taking objectives isn’t safe enough or if you don’t have enough time? That tower is an objective, is that not important enough to take then? Would you rather spiral your lead more by farming when they’re dead? Is that what BSJ i saying?
if you rewatch the later half of the video, around min 12:00 , BSJ mentions that right now, the map is so large , that the towers are not a large part of what constitutes the progression of the game. he also mentioned that you push the other lanes when they are dead so gain map control, then immediately group up again when they are alive (while having better map control due to pushing all lanes). he also mentioned that this totally depends on enemy matchup vs yours, what you are able to do while they are alive vs while they are dead. this game , enemy got an LC, so going solo in a lane to push it while LC is alive is very risky, while its a lot safer when she is dead. this game , the enemies are great at pick offs with LC, pudge, naix while dire has a much better team fight. So it makes sense to split up when they are dead and group up when they are alive. it would be different against a different matchup where enemies have better team fight, but less pick off potential, where you would wanna split up when they are alive (cuz they are stronger as 5 and u dont wanna take 5v5 fights against them) , and group up and take objective when they are dead.
this right here is the reason my games always go 40+ mins even when it shud be over by 30 mins. I know we are stronger and we can and should end or go hg but just didnt know how to do it properly. Thx bsj
Wow great video! I would have pushed bottom lane as well... Hopefully this will make me think even more about the game situation at each point in the game.
the people just realizing you need to look at map and formulate a strategy based off the factors of the game are exactly the people i been losing my games with lol
Sooo, if I understood you correctly. if looking at radient team, they know they dire have a team fight lineup. So when dire is alive, radient shall be split up?
It's more about the threat on the map. If LC is dead and SF ult is on CD, they no longer have pickoff potential. So whenever opponent doesn't have pickoff potential, you split up to maximize efficiency
@@an_omega_wolfok but i’m struggling to see how taking the bot tower isn’t good? That’s permanent map control cause they lose a tower right? How is pushing the lanes temporarily that much better
The team will get that tower regardless. SF is showing mid. LS won't be able to defend the tower solo. Ideally a support should tp top and push the lane while the carry takes the tower and then you can cut the mid creep wave (potentially killing the SF). Then enemy spanws and by then the top wave is pushed so team can group and take team fight near top tower gaining another objective. Instead if the team just sticks while enemy is dead, then once they spawn you are again grouped but also didn't get any farm on the map and two lanes are pushed into you leaving more space for enemy to farm
I had a game like this today. We won that one fight that gave us room to breath. My team then wastes the whole time pushing a glyphed t2 and I tpd across the map and farmed 4 creep waves and the entire jungle and the get flamed when they all die taking another fight at high ground. We win a fight and I gain 3k, then team feeds 3k right back at them. Please my legend friends, hit more creeps please!
What should I do as a Divine support player in SEA would be a great video! "They" here are my Goated Core players in SEA I split push they tell me all i do is farm.( we are loosing here) I stick to them they tell me why i dont have items and im sapping XP? (we are winning here i buy smokes) I dont tp on ganks when its far from tower they report me. ( carry over extends near their tower) I tp on Ganks early near tower they report me cause we go 1 by 1. ( Die cause either no one has to or tp on cd they used to tp on diff lane) When no one tps to tower to defend they report me for not defending vs 5 heroes.( I would split push in this instance instead of defending) When I push a wave near tower accused of farming. I have been reported and sent to LP for these decisions. I dont even reply to them i just mute instantly the moment they start complaining. Am i wrong or are these teammates just toxic hahaha Anyways Great content and i Hope you make a video about proper decision making in these situations.
I've been the LP guy taking all the flame and vitriol by people who can't add their gold numbers. Not your fault. My fix was to quit the game. Dota scundered my Mmr seed (they fixed this when around the time the warp gate patch happened, 3 years too late) when I started so manipulating the 1000 variables in my favor doesn't account for my teammates throwing via glory seeking and ignoring core parts of the game. Poor Tormentor and Rosh get almost no action sometimes.
Either justify urself r stop caring. If u feel the guy flamming is gonna play based on the laning Phase r what theyre doing then tell them. Flame if u a have to to a degree. If it seems theyre not gonna play to win jeep doing it but just mute them .
Hi BSJ, since you are a content creator mostly, I think that the reason you are not joining any tournament in particular is due to the schedule clash, plus you also do casting from time to time. Anyway, I'm suggesting that you raise funds or whatever and gather up a few teams of DOTA streamers plus some of the retired people, etc., to join a self-hosted tournament. Don't make it often, just twice or once a year-a gap between Valve's tournament and the other PGL ESL tournaments. Since it's a tournament, it involves a certain amount of pooling, so we might be able to see some of our favorite streamers and content creators compete amongst themselves in a more serious manner, or, you could say, a tournament's mood of some sort because it gives out a prize as a reward. Just a suggestion, though, not really a request.
one hell of a suggestion. Why dont you produce this tournament instead of "suggesting" that BSJ does it? im sure with how well you know it, you could set that up and be successful
I guess I don’t understand here. Why not take the t2 when they won the team fight? Otherwise they what split up, gain an extra 1k lead or so in the time the enemy is dead, and then group again to fight over the same t2? How is doing that different/more advantageous than doing what they did? Sure I think after killing the t2 the better play is probably to have troll or someone tp top to kill the wave and then have the rest of the team meet him top going through the enemy jungle/pushing out mid wave to then group when the enemy team is all up. That way they can then take the top towers and all lanes are pushed. But I feel like saying you shouldn’t take a t2 when the enemy is all dead and you have a wave at the tower feels wrong. How much extra gold can you get splitting there vs taking the tower? And how does that progress the game state in your favor more than taking the tower?
You almost always want to pick the option that is going to put your team further ahead in gold (edit: and exp). In this case, taking the t2 is less efficient than splitting up to farm immediately after the fight. The team with the biggest gold lead almost always wins the game. If option 2 creates a bigger gold/exp lead for your team than option 1, you pick option 2 pretty much every time. The only real exceptions are for HG pushes and Roshan.
@@fbwhitey I guess my question is in how much extra gold/exp can the team get in that minute splitting up compared to taking the t2? I feel like it wouldn’t have been that much different. Less than 1k gold difference. Plus with that logic when do you take objectives? In this scenario it seems BSJ wants the team to only take objectives when the enemy team is alive to contest them? Which seems counterintuitive to me. Isn’t the game objective based? When do you take towers?
@@conno13 Depends on a few things but mostly where the lanes are. If your lanes are pushed in, you split up and farm. If all the lanes are already pushed out, you can pressure the tower since theres not really anywhere else to farm and you're not sacrificing much anyway. A big issue I see happening a lot is people grouping up way too much and sacrificing farm all over the map to try and force an objective that doesn't really matter much. What generally matters more than anything else is how far ahead you are in comparison to your opponents. In this particular case, it's difficult to split up and farm when they could get picked off so easily, meaning they are having to sacrifice a lot of farm by being grouped. Even when they are winning fights, they aren't even really pulling ahead - so when they have the opportunity to split up they should absolutely take it. 1 minute of farm at 22-25 mins is more like a 3-4k gold swing if all 5 heroes on your team are farming efficiently and your opponents are not (ie, if they are dead). Rinse and repeat until you are so far ahead that your opponent's cant really fight you anymore, and its actually hard to lose at that point
BSJ mentioned why taking the T2 and wasting so much time wouldn't be a great idea, and it's a result of the same game state they found themselves in immediately after. Taking towers is good, but you could be doing better. LS/SF are the only ones alive, so one person could've taken that T2 by themselves easily while the other two go take the farm. It's not *just* the gold and exp lead you're pushing, it's also providing map control (pushed in lanes) and information (vision) which is important. BSJ also went on to point out that the reason you would've done this to push their advantage is that you push out mid and top, group up somewhere around mid or in their jungle (near the watcher perhaps) and then smoke and get a kill while they're recovering from that fight. This is because you know where the enemy will be, they have to defend their towers and need to get some gold after that lost fight. So you use that information to get a kill or two, which means they can't fight after that pickoff, and you get 1-2 towers off that and begin starving them out of the map. It's a domino effect. By mindlessly sitting grouped for a T2 tower, you lost the opportunity to do all that other stuff.
I disagree. If Dire doesn't push T2 with all 4 they don't take the tower before Radiant respawns. Taking the tower objectively provides more gold and map control for the team than the one creep wave they coulda taken in 30 seconds assuming they don't get jumped and killed by the two alive cores. Any single hero on dire will die to lifestealer + SF in a fight (troll ult down) and dire doesn't have vision toplane so no they actually can't split up and push waves even if they wanted to. Look at the map at 8:54. LS would jump in SF and kill whoever showed up to mid or top cuz they have it all warded. The correct play is take T2 bot then group with aegis and push down both towers top. Sorry BSJ but you got this one wrong
@@el_precich I'm not a literal pro player signed to a team like BSJ but unless someone can counter my points or there was another factor I missed; I have to disagree with BSJs take in this very specific situation.
I disagree here with your perspective. In theory, LS could jump in SF and get a kill somewhere. But the only one that dies here is Techies, so he could push top (which SF and LS are far away from) while OD and/or Troll push mid. Techies walks back to base to heal, TP's to mid T2 and then groups up with the team to push their advantage with a smoke gank or something. The reality here, also, is that unless you are really confident and really understand the game (which 3k players don't really, and I'm saying this as a 2.7k player), you are going to be too apprehensive to go for pickoffs with 3 of your team dead. You want to play it safe, defend what you can without losing someone. I think that the tower still easily dies before the enemy team can respond, then Dire can just group mid after pushing in other lanes, do a smoke gank into their jungle/whatever and get another pickoff while the enemy team is still recovering and worried about Aegis.
Fantastic video and something that I really started to think about in the last 6 months of me playing dota. Every time when the opponents are dead I always started to look at:
- the 3 waves (are our waves pushed in?)
- the objectives on the map (rosh and towers)
- do the opponents have glyph or not and what is their hero respawn time
BSJ I really loves these types of vides. not any tutorials, not tips and tricks but just talking about dota2''s fundamentals.
I'm really passionate about dotas, and I feel like lately these types of video aren't really available anywhere.
thanks for the vids
BSJ starting another series which abruptly stops midway is hilarious.
Just like netflix. Low views get canned. 😂
Absolute banger. As a new player still in super low ranks, the 5 stacking on wipe and making 0 progress anyway really hit home. It's a trap we are constantly falling into.
oh....umm...Tidbits has a 'd'
titbits is better
I think you mean timbits
it was 100% on purpose 😂😂
Not anymore!
UK English vs US English. UK English has it as titbits.
Great concept to mid game decisions, I’m ready to get flamed for splitpushing now.
true, especially in public game when we lack of communication doing the split pushing may create a misunderstanding
Started playing Dota 2 week ago. Found I’m a way better support than carry. Found pinging is amazingly helpful. And found this game is insanely channeling and hard. 😂
why would you play Dota 1 when Dota 2 is out for 11 years already
@@mudanashigoto typo
support is harder the higher your rank lol.
@@Doflaminguard carries play support when they have to ierk off with one hand
@@seeker530 yeah 40 minutes farming gameplay surely needs 2 hands and all concentration kek.
I have noticed that the games where I manage to get boots of travel 2 on any carry after getting six slotted, I always end up winning through split pushing alone even if my team is losing every single team fight with or without me. The problem is, if I get the boots too early, I'm still harmless. If I wait until six slotted, I only win if the game extends beyond 40 minutes. Surprise split pushing should be added to the mentioned ways of split pushing here, where you do it to end, not because you can face all your enemies alone in high ground, but because you can do it very quickly in a situation where the enemy is already engaged in a team fight against your team and if they just decided to run back or tp, they'll lose the fight, or die one after the other to me solo.
As always im ready to watch the coaching content. Great stuff!
Great video, really looking forward to this series.
Thank you for clearly communicating the decision making process, found it really insightful.
Appreciate it! Keep up the good work.
This is incredible, I make this mistake all the time and think its absolutely normal in 3k MMR after taking rosh to run at a T2 tower but taking a step back, pushing in all the waves is 100% the right move
Wake up honey, BSJ posted another video.
fun fact for 1k-5k games, if you leave the team after this fight on minute 23 after taking roshan and split up, tp to other side to "farm" creeps, you may get an outrage, abandone by your teammates for not pushing the close tower with aegis resulting frequently in losing the game after our correct decision :) unfortunately on low level this happens far more often then the correct scenario xD Legends love their death ball aegis pushes
What mmr are u bruh
Yeah. Doing the right thing sometimes isnt right if your team go as 4 and wipes.
my team every game
Yo BSJ, thought this was one of your better more recent videos and applicable to everyone... carry, mid, support etc. Well done.
sorry, i'm just hung up on offlane techies with a maelstrom
Battle techies is insane dude.
I feel like glyph was the key here. If they didn't have the glyph they can quickly take the tower then deal with those lanes. Maybe force the glyph then tp to the other lanes?
Or troll can solo take tower while the others fix lanes.
Really appreciate this video and I hope you make more!
Very simple tree IMO, I seem to win more when a team follows that, we've had a lot of T3 defense comebacks recently from just farming the map. I've been in 4k for 13 years though :(
Can you go Hight Ground? -> no, Just farm and pressure the map/towers, Getting a T2 is not important if you can't go HG.
Can you quick take Rosh/T2, and you already have key items? -> yes, Take T2/Rosh(get it respawning if winning)
Are you losing? Would you lose a normal 5v5? -> yes, go farm the whole map until the enemy comes T3, get your key items.
The question was a little bit misleading as your face covered the glyph cooldowns :D
To myself i said 'take T2 and then fix lanes until CD's are back up', as soon as the glyph came on it was time to leave.
Today I learned that if I never breathe in, I can continue farming and never have to group.
Very cool! hahaha
Loving the Harry Melling (aka Dudley Dursley) hairdoo on you.
Great content. Looking forward to see more videos from this series.
Group up when you have a significant spell for a team fight.
Now with the changes,way back from 7.33, team fights earn you more money than farming.
I started coaching (i am 6k scrub) and I ended up thinking more about the "room collapsing" to explain it somehow to my students, it s so funny that at the end the feelings we have about the game come down to something very similar
This is a great opportunity to learn.
might be an odd comment for a BSJ video, but this feels like another push for me to commit to learning Tinker support. and i say that because at the bottom tower after winning the team fight, they only really needed Troll to stay to take it, right? or did it not have to be troll? the map presence Tinker or NP can offer feels good, and going boots of travel feels greedy
6:51 are the red ones downsides? BSJ mentions 'pros and cons' but this looks like 'cons and pros', assuming you are losing map control by grouping up
Fantastic video Brian! I’m learning from every single video that u made. Thanks a lot champ
On the flip side of this, I’ve been winning alot with global heroes like underlord that can farm solo and ult into teamfights. He’s also tanky enough to not be a good pickoff target
A lot of this really conflicts what i’ve learned from BSJ and others, isn’t the goal to take objectives while the enemy is dead? If they enemy is dead, it’s easy to take objectives, i really don’t think taking that T2 bot tower was worse than pushing those lanes, then they respawn and push out those lanes again cause we’re scared of legion and sf again. You’re not getting a tower back, that’s permanent map control, contrary to just having lanes pushed
I’m starting to think now, is this what you do when taking objectives isn’t safe enough or if you don’t have enough time? That tower is an objective, is that not important enough to take then? Would you rather spiral your lead more by farming when they’re dead? Is that what BSJ i saying?
if you rewatch the later half of the video, around min 12:00 , BSJ mentions that right now, the map is so large , that the towers are not a large part of what constitutes the progression of the game. he also mentioned that you push the other lanes when they are dead so gain map control, then immediately group up again when they are alive (while having better map control due to pushing all lanes). he also mentioned that this totally depends on enemy matchup vs yours, what you are able to do while they are alive vs while they are dead. this game , enemy got an LC, so going solo in a lane to push it while LC is alive is very risky, while its a lot safer when she is dead. this game , the enemies are great at pick offs with LC, pudge, naix while dire has a much better team fight. So it makes sense to split up when they are dead and group up when they are alive. it would be different against a different matchup where enemies have better team fight, but less pick off potential, where you would wanna split up when they are alive (cuz they are stronger as 5 and u dont wanna take 5v5 fights against them) , and group up and take objective when they are dead.
this right here is the reason my games always go 40+ mins even when it shud be over by 30 mins. I know we are stronger and we can and should end or go hg but just didnt know how to do it properly.
Thx bsj
Nice concept thanks for the video!
Instructions unclear, running down lanes and giving away every single possible advantage until we lose 👍
Perfect video, exactly what I was looking for man. Just a question, when splitting up, what are the supports responsibilities?
He actually mentioned them: control the map with wards, deward
Wow great video! I would have pushed bottom lane as well... Hopefully this will make me think even more about the game situation at each point in the game.
hi i think this would be a great series. i hope what's next would be when to ward aggressively or defensively. great video btw
I love that metaphor. Dota is life. And Dota is major breathing.
good content as aways BSJ cheers from Brazil bro
Thank you! This is awesome
BSJ is a god. This blew my mind. That is why I pay the man on Patreon for his lovely work.
Very helpful! Herald 2 here I come! 😂
The most difficult part for me is to align with the team if we will group up or split.
the people just realizing you need to look at map and formulate a strategy based off the factors of the game are exactly the people i been losing my games with lol
Sooo, if I understood you correctly. if looking at radient team, they know they dire have a team fight lineup. So when dire is alive, radient shall be split up?
It's more about the threat on the map. If LC is dead and SF ult is on CD, they no longer have pickoff potential. So whenever opponent doesn't have pickoff potential, you split up to maximize efficiency
@@an_omega_wolfok but i’m struggling to see how taking the bot tower isn’t good? That’s permanent map control cause they lose a tower right? How is pushing the lanes temporarily that much better
The team will get that tower regardless. SF is showing mid. LS won't be able to defend the tower solo. Ideally a support should tp top and push the lane while the carry takes the tower and then you can cut the mid creep wave (potentially killing the SF). Then enemy spanws and by then the top wave is pushed so team can group and take team fight near top tower gaining another objective.
Instead if the team just sticks while enemy is dead, then once they spawn you are again grouped but also didn't get any farm on the map and two lanes are pushed into you leaving more space for enemy to farm
When did the standard bite size youtube video reached 15 mins??? Lol
Love the content though
I had a game like this today. We won that one fight that gave us room to breath. My team then wastes the whole time pushing a glyphed t2 and I tpd across the map and farmed 4 creep waves and the entire jungle and the get flamed when they all die taking another fight at high ground.
We win a fight and I gain 3k, then team feeds 3k right back at them.
Please my legend friends, hit more creeps please!
i'm also in legend but i have to keep telling my team to stop hitting creeps
so what did I learn?
yes!
Yin and yang very clever concept thanks.
Great content thanks bsj
What should I do as a Divine support player in SEA would be a great video!
"They" here are my Goated Core players in SEA
I split push they tell me all i do is farm.( we are loosing here)
I stick to them they tell me why i dont have items and im sapping XP? (we are winning here i buy smokes)
I dont tp on ganks when its far from tower they report me. ( carry over extends near their tower)
I tp on Ganks early near tower they report me cause we go 1 by 1. ( Die cause either no one has to or tp on cd they used to tp on diff lane)
When no one tps to tower to defend they report me for not defending vs 5 heroes.( I would split push in this instance instead of defending)
When I push a wave near tower accused of farming.
I have been reported and sent to LP for these decisions. I dont even reply to them i just mute instantly the moment they start complaining. Am i wrong or are these teammates just toxic hahaha
Anyways Great content and i Hope you make a video about proper decision making in these situations.
I've been the LP guy taking all the flame and vitriol by people who can't add their gold numbers. Not your fault. My fix was to quit the game.
Dota scundered my Mmr seed (they fixed this when around the time the warp gate patch happened, 3 years too late) when I started so manipulating the 1000 variables in my favor doesn't account for my teammates throwing via glory seeking and ignoring core parts of the game. Poor Tormentor and Rosh get almost no action sometimes.
Either justify urself r stop caring. If u feel the guy flamming is gonna play based on the laning Phase r what theyre doing then tell them. Flame if u a have to to a degree. If it seems theyre not gonna play to win jeep doing it but just mute them .
Then I split up and my team gets upsed with me, how to explain it I'm doing the right thing ?
Big thoughts from BSJ!
I do it on a personal core level based on items and ultis
Thank you, mr. BSJ!
9:53 Well, except... they secured a tower? Repeat it untill you win, right?
Seems they are too compex concepts for me.
usually, the decision i make dont matter, cause my teammate deciede to throw the game anyway.
My pub teams always split up and farm jungle after we kill rosh together
👍
My pub teams immediately push the lane we just killed Rosh on while two other lanes are pushing into us
Hi BSJ, since you are a content creator mostly, I think that the reason you are not joining any tournament in particular is due to the schedule clash, plus you also do casting from time to time. Anyway, I'm suggesting that you raise funds or whatever and gather up a few teams of DOTA streamers plus some of the retired people, etc., to join a self-hosted tournament. Don't make it often, just twice or once a year-a gap between Valve's tournament and the other PGL ESL tournaments. Since it's a tournament, it involves a certain amount of pooling, so we might be able to see some of our favorite streamers and content creators compete amongst themselves in a more serious manner, or, you could say, a tournament's mood of some sort because it gives out a prize as a reward. Just a suggestion, though, not really a request.
one hell of a suggestion. Why dont you produce this tournament instead of "suggesting" that BSJ does it? im sure with how well you know it, you could set that up and be successful
well im suggesting it to him not you, wouldve have accept the same reply if its coming from him directly, not you. who are you actually duh?
great editing
I guess I don’t understand here. Why not take the t2 when they won the team fight? Otherwise they what split up, gain an extra 1k lead or so in the time the enemy is dead, and then group again to fight over the same t2? How is doing that different/more advantageous than doing what they did?
Sure I think after killing the t2 the better play is probably to have troll or someone tp top to kill the wave and then have the rest of the team meet him top going through the enemy jungle/pushing out mid wave to then group when the enemy team is all up. That way they can then take the top towers and all lanes are pushed.
But I feel like saying you shouldn’t take a t2 when the enemy is all dead and you have a wave at the tower feels wrong. How much extra gold can you get splitting there vs taking the tower? And how does that progress the game state in your favor more than taking the tower?
You almost always want to pick the option that is going to put your team further ahead in gold (edit: and exp). In this case, taking the t2 is less efficient than splitting up to farm immediately after the fight. The team with the biggest gold lead almost always wins the game. If option 2 creates a bigger gold/exp lead for your team than option 1, you pick option 2 pretty much every time. The only real exceptions are for HG pushes and Roshan.
@@fbwhitey I guess my question is in how much extra gold/exp can the team get in that minute splitting up compared to taking the t2? I feel like it wouldn’t have been that much different. Less than 1k gold difference. Plus with that logic when do you take objectives? In this scenario it seems BSJ wants the team to only take objectives when the enemy team is alive to contest them?
Which seems counterintuitive to me. Isn’t the game objective based? When do you take towers?
@@conno13 Depends on a few things but mostly where the lanes are. If your lanes are pushed in, you split up and farm. If all the lanes are already pushed out, you can pressure the tower since theres not really anywhere else to farm and you're not sacrificing much anyway. A big issue I see happening a lot is people grouping up way too much and sacrificing farm all over the map to try and force an objective that doesn't really matter much. What generally matters more than anything else is how far ahead you are in comparison to your opponents.
In this particular case, it's difficult to split up and farm when they could get picked off so easily, meaning they are having to sacrifice a lot of farm by being grouped. Even when they are winning fights, they aren't even really pulling ahead - so when they have the opportunity to split up they should absolutely take it. 1 minute of farm at 22-25 mins is more like a 3-4k gold swing if all 5 heroes on your team are farming efficiently and your opponents are not (ie, if they are dead). Rinse and repeat until you are so far ahead that your opponent's cant really fight you anymore, and its actually hard to lose at that point
BSJ mentioned why taking the T2 and wasting so much time wouldn't be a great idea, and it's a result of the same game state they found themselves in immediately after.
Taking towers is good, but you could be doing better. LS/SF are the only ones alive, so one person could've taken that T2 by themselves easily while the other two go take the farm. It's not *just* the gold and exp lead you're pushing, it's also providing map control (pushed in lanes) and information (vision) which is important.
BSJ also went on to point out that the reason you would've done this to push their advantage is that you push out mid and top, group up somewhere around mid or in their jungle (near the watcher perhaps) and then smoke and get a kill while they're recovering from that fight. This is because you know where the enemy will be, they have to defend their towers and need to get some gold after that lost fight. So you use that information to get a kill or two, which means they can't fight after that pickoff, and you get 1-2 towers off that and begin starving them out of the map.
It's a domino effect. By mindlessly sitting grouped for a T2 tower, you lost the opportunity to do all that other stuff.
Good vid. Keep it up
11:33 if you wanna get to the point
Great insight!
when is BSJ micro managing another game, so entertaining :p
Bsj you really should duo stream on TH-cam id watch it for sure
or go to twitch?
Thanks bsj
Bro he said breathing not breeding
good dota 2 content
that was awesome.
TITbits
Yesssa
i am immortal but thanks this this video, i learned something new, or at least from a new perspective, thanks
Breathing create babies
BSJ 🎉
Notice it was "titbits" instead of tidbits?
TIT BITS? WHAT xD
Bone apple tea
You don't "rest assure" people. You "reassure" them, or simply assure them. You can also tell them to rest assured.
Mmmm...timbits
I dunno if "titbits" is the correct term... 00:06
@@smarfl3ohh tit bit and tid bit is the same... Lel .. one sounds naughtier than the other
Tidbits but it's BSJ so yeah
Freudian slip
More hot than tidbits though 8)
😂It is now!
Titbits? do you mean tidbits?
Coaching what? I feel scammed
That's why I am playing support Pudge in turbo modes, I just hook people
If I don't hook we lose and life must go on...
I didn't really understand this one, can anyone ELI5?
I disagree. If Dire doesn't push T2 with all 4 they don't take the tower before Radiant respawns. Taking the tower objectively provides more gold and map control for the team than the one creep wave they coulda taken in 30 seconds assuming they don't get jumped and killed by the two alive cores. Any single hero on dire will die to lifestealer + SF in a fight (troll ult down) and dire doesn't have vision toplane so no they actually can't split up and push waves even if they wanted to. Look at the map at 8:54. LS would jump in SF and kill whoever showed up to mid or top cuz they have it all warded. The correct play is take T2 bot then group with aegis and push down both towers top. Sorry BSJ but you got this one wrong
What mmr are you?
@@el_precich I'm not a literal pro player signed to a team like BSJ but unless someone can counter my points or there was another factor I missed; I have to disagree with BSJs take in this very specific situation.
I disagree here with your perspective.
In theory, LS could jump in SF and get a kill somewhere. But the only one that dies here is Techies, so he could push top (which SF and LS are far away from) while OD and/or Troll push mid. Techies walks back to base to heal, TP's to mid T2 and then groups up with the team to push their advantage with a smoke gank or something.
The reality here, also, is that unless you are really confident and really understand the game (which 3k players don't really, and I'm saying this as a 2.7k player), you are going to be too apprehensive to go for pickoffs with 3 of your team dead. You want to play it safe, defend what you can without losing someone.
I think that the tower still easily dies before the enemy team can respond, then Dire can just group mid after pushing in other lanes, do a smoke gank into their jungle/whatever and get another pickoff while the enemy team is still recovering and worried about Aegis.
reupload in 3.. 2..
They just change the pictures bruh
I love you
hahahaha tit
W
Just please don't farm neutrals while the opponent is dead.
Sometimes its the right thing to do, especially when you're playing from behind.