The O6/8F 2-8-0's were loved by the crews that manned them. They could get these locos to do anything. Despite their high versatility, mainly coal hauling and freight were their duties.
Very well put together: despite me being Australian, LMS was my favourite pre-grouping railway company. The narrator is very professional and has a good style.
The black five was my uncles favourite locomotive he and my grandfather were both steam locomotive drivers with LMS in Scotland dawsholm sheds maryhill
Only a few mistakes in the narrative and pictures, such as the diagram I am looking at right now, which is not of an Ivatt 2-6-2 tank but rather of one of the preceeding Stanier variety. But all very evocative of my childhood days eben so. Thanks for posting.
Sadly LMS engines had one huge fault, the Derby pattern live steam injector, which bizarrely was perpetuated even when LMS locos were built at the other railway workshops. Tests carried out to see which to fit to the BR Standards showed it be markedly inferior to all the others, with the GWR pattern the superior and so was fitted to all BR Standards. Odd that Stanier didn't bring it from Swindon!
34:29 This LMS 4F Steam Locomotives Are A Bit Like Donald And Douglas From Thomas The Tank Engine And Friends The Original Series In 1984. Thanks Mate. PS Old School Times Man. XXxxx 🇬🇧 🇦🇺 🇺🇸
My uncle Percy, a top link steam locomotive engine driver on the LMS West Coast Mainline Route, would turn in his grave. Where were the Princess Coronation Class (PCC) locos of the LMS/BR? Wow, an elephant of an omission. Additionally the Princess Royal Class (PRC) locos were not considered....not as though they should be. My uncle Percy described them as being the biggest heaps of scrap the LMS had ever devised being poor steaming/driving locomotives necessitating the crews to work their backs off in order to keep the loco moving along the track. Given the choice he would have preferred a Black 5 or a 2-8-0 8F to a PRC any day. When asked why, his response was because they both could literally crap all over a PRC locomotive in every respect, and were both well loved by the crews that manned them, but his true love was the PCC locomotives. He had driven Jubilee, Patriot, Royal Scot, and just about all of the PCC locomotives in his career that was in its twilight in 1964 when I first met him. He had even been firing on the PCC locomotives with full streamlining way back in the 1930's.
Your uncle probably had to operate 6200 and 6201, the prototypes for the class. When first built their fireboxes were essentially too small compared to the grate area. The rest of the Lizzies were built with larger fireboxes to fix this issue. The current crews of Princess Elizabeth and Princess Margaret Rose don't appear to have much to complain about operating them on modern railtours.
@@davidwhiting1761 Yes, uncle Percy did not like the Princess Royal Class (PRC) at all. He said that Stanier had developed the Princess Coronation Class (PCC) to dispense with all the problems encountered on the PRC locos as extensive trials had been performed with them. I was not told, but maybe he had been involved with PRC loco trials. There was a long conversation between Percy and my grandfather which covered all the technicalities revolving around the issues the PRC had. Percy had an almost encyclopedic memory, and could remember the failings of a great many locomotives and when exactly the failings had been resolved. With PRC locos it was more than just small fireboxes. I was a little young then so most of it went over my head, but the main issue appeared to be poor steaming, and this had nothing to do with the coal used or an idle fireman. By all accounts the fireman had to work like hell to just keep the loco moving down the tracks, and there were other issues too. The issue list for PRC locos I cannot remember now as this conversation occurred in 1964. One thing I do remember is that grandad tried to knock PCC locos. Percy was right on the ball with this, as these locos were his favorites. 'A4's have an Achilles Heal, some sort of gentian violet file that breaks and stinks up the cab when their main bearings fail. You don't have that on PCC locos. They are as good as the day is long. No overheating main bearings on them after long high speed mainline hauls.' Ooops.....grandad struck a raw nerve there. I was asked what was my favorite loco, and I responded Sir William A Stanier FRS. 'Ah' said Percy, 'the last of the Duchesses. I'll be driving her in three weeks time.' I thought you lucky sod. I would have given my high teeth to have been on her footplate. But being in a family of LNER enginemen, I got a whole lot of needling about that for months afterwards......'So, A4's not good enough for you then lad? PCC's your favorite then?' Yes, I remember that.
One of the issues with the Princess Royals was the complexity of the inside motionwork. These were four-cylinder locomotives, and there were something like 19 separate points between the locomotive frames that had to be regularly accessed and kept trimmed in service. The Princess Coronations were an extensive redesign (and of course the Duchesses even better) and benefited extensively from double-chimney front ends.
@@wizlish I remember too noting to my grandfather that Bulleid Light Pacifics looked cool with their streamlining. That caused a heck of a belly laugh out of all the LNER men that were there, and my grandfather said, 'Shall I tell him or you? Lad SPAM CANS ARE CRAP! Chain driven valve gear that spews oil all over the track. Poor power levels which means they often have to be double headed to allow them to get over the grades. Utter crap.' Well, what could anyone expect from LNER men?
@@wizlish This must have formed part of the technicalities discussed between uncle Percy and my grandfather. I have often tried to remember, but cannot remember whether a PCC loco had two firemen or just one. I think two. If I remember a 6' fire grate. What I do know is that uncle Percy swore by them. He loved these locos like they were his children, and had developed over the years all the peccadillos of driving and firing individual locomotives, as they all had their individual characteristics to raise steam, even within the same class. I often wonder what that knowledge would be worth today had it been recorded in writing. Indeed, well into the diesel era, PCC locos had more tractive force than the diesels that were replacing them. They were always my favorites.
One can see some pretty grubby 'sheds' on freight workings, right now if you choose. Is that privatisation for you? [Edit] Shortly after this clip, I watched some Ivo Peters' footage of several colliery lines taken in the 1960s. Locos ranging from some choice 19th century examples to a 6 year old 'Austerity' were spotless ... and they don't come much more nationalised than the old NCB.
I suspect the answer lies with the dates this video covers, which are the very last few years of BR steam. No Princess Royal made it into 1963 and the very last of the Duchesses went (from Crewe North shed) in Oct 1964. After the dieselisation of the Edinburgh - Aberdeen route in 1966, the only pacifics left were the ever shrinking number of Britannias and the Bulleid MNs and WC/BoBs working the Southern Region's Waterloo - Bournemouth/ Weymouth services, which lasted until July 1967.
@@TheHoveHeretic I suspect the answer also has something to do with the fact the LMS had at nationalisation about 8000 locos on the books of which the mighty total of 52 were pacifics, the vast majority of people and stuff moved by the LMS was not moved by Pacifics, they made up less than 1% of the motive power
@@PreservationEnthusiast the more you cut up the more money there is to go between the ones left lol, we could stand to lose a few black 5s, bulleid pacifics, 9fs, gwr halls and maybe a manor or two 😅
@Samstrainss Yes and a few 37s and 47s. I think there were nearly 50 class 37s "preserved" at one time. Rusting away in heritage railway sidings because nobody wanted to see them in those numbers. Preservation really got out of hand with people buying stuff just because they could.
The Clean Air of 1956 didn't help either. It made BR liable for a fine for each steam locomotive that made excessive smoke in a clean air zone. The BTC had to drop their careful plan of testing diesel locomotives and just buy as many as possible to replace the steam locomotives as fast as possible.
I don't know if that hideous background noise was recorded with the clips, or dubbed in from 'stock' as is common in many United States 'train videos'. If the former, it would be shocking evidence of a decline in maintenance standards during the very last days of steam. Clanking rods and extensive lost motion would NOT have been typical of LMS power -- at least not to the degree we repeatedly hear.
@aurch09 sorry, I wasn't a Jinty but the similar looking Fowler 1F number 1831, which after being withdrawn was scrapped down to its frames before being fitted with a 400hp Paxman engine and a Haslam & Newton hydrostatic transmission. A box superstructure with driving positions at each end was placed on top of the frames to protect the driver and engine from the weather. It returned to operation in 1932 and proved to be a failure, primarily because of the transmission. It became a mobile power unit in 1940 with its engine now powing a generator. It was scrapped in 1955.
The O6/8F 2-8-0's were loved by the crews that manned them. They could get these locos to do anything. Despite their high versatility, mainly coal hauling and freight were their duties.
Excellent Video Thank You Very Much Regards Colin
I have a 3.5" Gauge live steam "Jinty" that I am restoring. I have it numbered as 47550 The first Hunslet built variant
Very well put together: despite me being Australian, LMS was my favourite pre-grouping railway company.
The narrator is very professional and has a good style.
Post-grouping (1923), pre-nationalisation (1948).
@@Nastyswimmer You certainly put that ozzie in her place.
I enjoyed watching ❤
Enjoyed this. Great effort.
Brilliant video - thank you for posting!!
The black five was my uncles favourite locomotive he and my grandfather were both steam locomotive drivers with LMS in Scotland dawsholm sheds maryhill
7:36 This LNER Gresley A4 Pacific Merlin Is A Bit Like Mallard. Thanks Mate. X❤🇬🇧🇦🇺🇺🇲
Gresley named most of the A4s after birds because he was an avid birdwatcher. A merlin is a small falcon.
Only a few mistakes in the narrative and pictures, such as the diagram I am looking at right now, which is not of an Ivatt 2-6-2 tank but rather of one of the preceeding Stanier variety. But all very evocative of my childhood days eben so. Thanks for posting.
Sadly LMS engines had one huge fault, the Derby pattern live steam injector, which bizarrely was perpetuated even when LMS locos were built at the other railway workshops. Tests carried out to see which to fit to the BR Standards showed it be markedly inferior to all the others, with the GWR pattern the superior and so was fitted to all BR Standards. Odd that Stanier didn't bring it from Swindon!
34:29 This LMS 4F Steam Locomotives Are A Bit Like Donald And Douglas From Thomas The Tank Engine And Friends The Original Series In 1984. Thanks Mate. PS Old School Times Man. XXxxx 🇬🇧 🇦🇺 🇺🇸
Donald and Douglas are Caledonian Railway 812/652s. Of which 828 is the sole survivor.
Wow.
My uncle Percy, a top link steam locomotive engine driver on the LMS West Coast Mainline Route, would turn in his grave. Where were the Princess Coronation Class (PCC) locos of the LMS/BR? Wow, an elephant of an omission. Additionally the Princess Royal Class (PRC) locos were not considered....not as though they should be. My uncle Percy described them as being the biggest heaps of scrap the LMS had ever devised being poor steaming/driving locomotives necessitating the crews to work their backs off in order to keep the loco moving along the track. Given the choice he would have preferred a Black 5 or a 2-8-0 8F to a PRC any day. When asked why, his response was because they both could literally crap all over a PRC locomotive in every respect, and were both well loved by the crews that manned them, but his true love was the PCC locomotives. He had driven Jubilee, Patriot, Royal Scot, and just about all of the PCC locomotives in his career that was in its twilight in 1964 when I first met him. He had even been firing on the PCC locomotives with full streamlining way back in the 1930's.
Your uncle probably had to operate 6200 and 6201, the prototypes for the class. When first built their fireboxes were essentially too small compared to the grate area. The rest of the Lizzies were built with larger fireboxes to fix this issue. The current crews of Princess Elizabeth and Princess Margaret Rose don't appear to have much to complain about operating them on modern railtours.
@@davidwhiting1761 Yes, uncle Percy did not like the Princess Royal Class (PRC) at all. He said that Stanier had developed the Princess Coronation Class (PCC) to dispense with all the problems encountered on the PRC locos as extensive trials had been performed with them. I was not told, but maybe he had been involved with PRC loco trials. There was a long conversation between Percy and my grandfather which covered all the technicalities revolving around the issues the PRC had. Percy had an almost encyclopedic memory, and could remember the failings of a great many locomotives and when exactly the failings had been resolved. With PRC locos it was more than just small fireboxes. I was a little young then so most of it went over my head, but the main issue appeared to be poor steaming, and this had nothing to do with the coal used or an idle fireman. By all accounts the fireman had to work like hell to just keep the loco moving down the tracks, and there were other issues too. The issue list for PRC locos I cannot remember now as this conversation occurred in 1964. One thing I do remember is that grandad tried to knock PCC locos. Percy was right on the ball with this, as these locos were his favorites. 'A4's have an Achilles Heal, some sort of gentian violet file that breaks and stinks up the cab when their main bearings fail. You don't have that on PCC locos. They are as good as the day is long. No overheating main bearings on them after long high speed mainline hauls.' Ooops.....grandad struck a raw nerve there. I was asked what was my favorite loco, and I responded Sir William A Stanier FRS. 'Ah' said Percy, 'the last of the Duchesses. I'll be driving her in three weeks time.' I thought you lucky sod. I would have given my high teeth to have been on her footplate. But being in a family of LNER enginemen, I got a whole lot of needling about that for months afterwards......'So, A4's not good enough for you then lad? PCC's your favorite then?' Yes, I remember that.
One of the issues with the Princess Royals was the complexity of the inside motionwork. These were four-cylinder locomotives, and there were something like 19 separate points between the locomotive frames that had to be regularly accessed and kept trimmed in service.
The Princess Coronations were an extensive redesign (and of course the Duchesses even better) and benefited extensively from double-chimney front ends.
@@wizlish I remember too noting to my grandfather that Bulleid Light Pacifics looked cool with their streamlining. That caused a heck of a belly laugh out of all the LNER men that were there, and my grandfather said, 'Shall I tell him or you? Lad SPAM CANS ARE CRAP! Chain driven valve gear that spews oil all over the track. Poor power levels which means they often have to be double headed to allow them to get over the grades. Utter crap.' Well, what could anyone expect from LNER men?
@@wizlish This must have formed part of the technicalities discussed between uncle Percy and my grandfather. I have often tried to remember, but cannot remember whether a PCC loco had two firemen or just one. I think two. If I remember a 6' fire grate. What I do know is that uncle Percy swore by them. He loved these locos like they were his children, and had developed over the years all the peccadillos of driving and firing individual locomotives, as they all had their individual characteristics to raise steam, even within the same class. I often wonder what that knowledge would be worth today had it been recorded in writing. Indeed, well into the diesel era, PCC locos had more tractive force than the diesels that were replacing them. They were always my favorites.
Look👍at the size of the drive wheels 😮
33:49
Fowler 4F
Yeah
i was there working in Darlington but note the filthy state of the engines an stock - Nationalisation for you !!
One can see some pretty grubby 'sheds' on freight workings, right now if you choose. Is that privatisation for you?
[Edit] Shortly after this clip, I watched some Ivo Peters' footage of several colliery lines taken in the 1960s. Locos ranging from some choice 19th century examples to a 6 year old 'Austerity' were spotless ... and they don't come much more nationalised than the old NCB.
Beautiful ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
I hope there's footage of Stamford in this film.
Where’s the LMS power? Big Pacific 4-6-2s? Does that ring a bell at all?
I suspect the answer lies with the dates this video covers, which are the very last few years of BR steam. No Princess Royal made it into 1963 and the very last of the Duchesses went (from Crewe North shed) in Oct 1964.
After the dieselisation of the Edinburgh - Aberdeen route in 1966, the only pacifics left were the ever shrinking number of Britannias and the Bulleid MNs and WC/BoBs working the Southern Region's Waterloo - Bournemouth/ Weymouth services, which lasted until July 1967.
@@TheHoveHeretic I suspect the answer also has something to do with the fact the LMS had at nationalisation about 8000 locos on the books of which the mighty total of 52 were pacifics, the vast majority of people and stuff moved by the LMS was not moved by Pacifics, they made up less than 1% of the motive power
@@Samstrainsofficially Scrap steam locomotives with cutting torches. I love a good steam loco scrapping, I do.
@@PreservationEnthusiast the more you cut up the more money there is to go between the ones left lol, we could stand to lose a few black 5s, bulleid pacifics, 9fs, gwr halls and maybe a manor or two 😅
@Samstrainss Yes and a few 37s and 47s. I think there were nearly 50 class 37s "preserved" at one time. Rusting away in heritage railway sidings because nobody wanted to see them in those numbers. Preservation really got out of hand with people buying stuff just because they could.
I started to watch this but the music stopped me it’s awful. 20:56
The Clean Air of 1956 didn't help either. It made BR liable for a fine for each steam locomotive that made excessive smoke in a clean air zone. The BTC had to drop their careful plan of testing diesel locomotives and just buy as many as possible to replace the steam locomotives as fast as possible.
would have been a more enjoyable video if the hideous background noise had been left out. In fact its enough to stop the video
I don't know if that hideous background noise was recorded with the clips, or dubbed in from 'stock' as is common in many United States 'train videos'.
If the former, it would be shocking evidence of a decline in maintenance standards during the very last days of steam. Clanking rods and extensive lost motion would NOT have been typical of LMS power -- at least not to the degree we repeatedly hear.
One Jinty was converted into a diesel shunter.
Please explain.
@aurch09 sorry, I wasn't a Jinty but the similar looking Fowler 1F number 1831, which after being withdrawn was scrapped down to its frames before being fitted with a 400hp Paxman engine and a Haslam & Newton hydrostatic transmission. A box superstructure with driving positions at each end was placed on top of the frames to protect the driver and engine from the weather. It returned to operation in 1932 and proved to be a failure, primarily because of the transmission. It became a mobile power unit in 1940 with its engine now powing a generator. It was scrapped in 1955.
Thanks for your reply. I had never heard of this before. You learn something new every day! Once again many thanks.
@@aurch09 your welcome
BR Standards are not LMS.