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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 พ.ค. 2022
- The 10mm Auto and .40 S&W share an intimate history, with the 10mm Auto being the parent cartridge of the .40 S&W. But do they share even more than that? In this week's video, we look at how the 10mm Auto cartridge came to be, and consider the truth behind some of the differences between the two cartridges. Watch this week's video to learn more about the history of the 10mm Auto.
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My understanding is that there were at least 10 different attempts at .40cal/10mm before the '70s joint project between Whit Collins and Jeff Cooper that was finally successful. Browning had gone the second furthest with his HiPower pistol before WW1, but the war demanded .45 or 9mm for the various factions, and his side project was scrapped.
In the '70s project, Collins decided to start up with a Browning HiPower himself. Cooper followed along intently, as both felt the ideal handgun cartridge should fall right between a .35cal(9mm) and a .45cal. Collins said all the curves came together there, on paper.
A few years down the road, and the team realized they were running out of room inside the HiPower platform to keep increasing load performance while still managing proper feed angles and pressure safety margins. Collins decided to continue tweaking his loads in the HiPower, rather than start over with a different gun.
Some wildcatters reported success in a 1911 platform.
But Cooper dreamed of something like the new CZ75 fully unleashing the potential of the project. His (now modest) goal was 200 gr at 1000 fps.
Then slick startup Dornaus & Dixon arrived on the scene, and when they looked at Cooper's designs, they agreed that the CZ75 would make a good starting point for a super gun, and they told him they could squeeze 1100fps out of the cartridge, easily. Cooper liked what he was hearing.
The team had a doozy of a time finding an ammo manufacturer willing to make the high-pressure cartridges called for, but once they found one, it paid off. Norma upped the ante by promising 200gr at 1200fps, 180gr at 1300 fps, and 170 gr at 1400 fps. Cooper's eyes lit up like stars.
As mentioned in the video, sadly Dornaus & Dixon mismanaged the project, and the Bren Ten quickly bit the dust. But you can still get a close approximation of their dream with the Tanfoglio Match, which was recently upgraded to the Tanfoglio Defiant, both based on the CZ75 as well.
And it should be recognized that modern .40S&W pretty much achieves what Cooper set out to accomplish. It just doesn't deliver the suped-up hot rod performance that a boutique shop toyed with for a blink of an eye in the early '80s. Other than reloaders, we're still chasing down that dream. Underwood is the best commercial loader today, but it is still limited by the build quality of the .40S&W projectiles that fill the market and which balk at real 10mm speeds. Maybe someday, perhaps if .40S&W dies off, we will get true 10mm bullets again, and a Renaissance will take place. Let's hope! 🤞
never happen
This brought back a lot of memories. At one time, I was an FFL Dealer in Los Angeles, and really got into the Bren 10. There was a point where I had sold more of them than anyone else in the country. I also got to know Tom Dornaus and Mike Dixon, with Dixon being more available due to being in sales. They had a good idea with the Bren 10, but neither of them had any idea of how to produce a gun. Their "assembly line" consisted of about 10 or 12 guys, each building an individual Bren 10. Not starting to put the gun together and each station performing a different operation, which would have been much faster. They had two major problems, which you have mentioned, magazines and ammo. The thing with magazines is a really sad story. Dornaus had set up a deal with somebody to make magazines for them and gave the guy 10,000 dollars, but he never checked on how things were coming along until it was time to start putting magazines and pistols together. At that point, he discovered that the guy and Dornaus's ten grand had disappeared with no trace. He and Dixon started frantically searching for someone to make magazines for them, but the only place they could find was Mec Gar in Italy. This meant that it was going to be a LONG time before they had any magazines. Then there was the ammo problem. They couldn't find anyone to build 10mm ammo for them. After much searching, they came up with Norma in, I believe, Sweden. Norma's basic idea with loading ammunition was that if some is good, more is better, and too much is just barely enough. So the Norma 10mm was really hot. And the Bren 10's were not really designed to handle it, so if they were fed a steady diet of Norma ammo, they would break. Which a lot of them did. By this time, the lawsuits had stated, and the writing was on the wall for Dornaus & Dixon, and it wasn't much longer before they were out of business. But in case you're wondering, yes, I still have two Bren 10's in the original boxes, and no, I don't want to sell them. At least not yet. When I get a few years older, we can talk about it.
Cooper's original formula was the 0.400" bullet of 200 grains at a muzzle velocity of 1100 fps.
It was Mike Dixon who established that the ammo be at 1200 fps knowing some ammo as mad would make the stated velocity.
NORMA however actually delivered ammo that exceeded the 1200 fps in the New Bren Ten pistols with the Power Seal rifling, and velocities are 1250-1260 fps.
Subsequent ammo were reduced to the 1200 fps and later batches for public was even less as posted by many people who bought.
In the Video by Ammo Mart, Rodney states the 40 S&W as being 1/10" (0.10") shorter than the 10mm case. The case of the 10mm is 0.9920" but most are shorter from the ammo producers at 0.9880".
The 40S&W case is 0.850" but most ammo producers are only 0.8460" actual dimensions. The difference being 0.072" from SAAMI and 0.142" in ammo producers.
I really like my S&W M&P 2.0 in 10mm, it's very ergonomic, & fun to shoot at the range. It's actually one of my favorite firearms & cartridges!
Also there was no mention of the Smith and Wesson 4506 which is what S&W used as the test bed for the 10mm testing. That led to one of the very best 10mm firearms ever produced the S&W model 1006 with 5" barrel.
Many people never new that S&W made several models in the 10XX series of pistols.
Smith & Wesson 10mm pistols
1006 - 26,979 units produced 1990-93
1076 - 13,805 units produced 1990-93
1066 - 5,067 units produced 1990-92
1026 - 3,135 units produced 1990-91
1086 - 1,660 units produced 1990-92
1046 - 151 units produced 1991 (only)
1006- 5" barrel, slide mounted safety/decocker traditional double action
1026- 5" barrel, frame mounted decocker traditional double action
1046- 5" barrel double action only
1066- 4.25" barrel, slide mounted safety/decocker traditional double action
1076- 4.25" barrel, frame mounted decocker traditional double action
1086- 4.25" barrel double action only
S&W 1006- 5.00" barrel, slide mounted safety/decocker traditional double action
S&W 1066- 4.25" barrel, slide mounted safety/decocker traditional double action
The hammer on the 1006 has the full tang, the 1066 is bobbed.
The 1006 and 1066 do have the slide mounted decocker/safety on both sides of the slide. Safety/Decocker if placed in safe mode allows the hammer to be dropped safely to the blocking bar so it can not hit the firing pin. With the Safety/Decocker in fire mode, pulling the trigger will cock and fire the pistol. The pistol can be carried with the Safety/Decocker in the fire position with the hammer un-cocked and the trigger will cock the hammer and fire the pistol Double Action. After the gun is fired, it is fully recocked and the gun is fired single action till empty or decocked. You can carry the pistol cocked with the Safety/Decocker in fire position, then the "ONLY SAFETY IS THE TRIGGER" Single Action! Some models can be fired without the magazine present if the magazine disconnect is removed.
NOTE for comparison
S&W 1026- 5.00" barrel, frame mounted decocker traditional double action
S&W 1076- 4.25" barrel, frame mounted decocker traditional double action
These can be decocked by pushing down on the frame mounted decocking lever, the hammer is dropped to a half or partially cocked position and pulling the trigger will cock and fire the pistol. After the gun is fired it is fully recocked and the gun is fired single action till empty or decocked. The hammer when dry fired will be all the way down but pulling the trigger will cock and fire the gun. Some models can be fired without the magazine present if the magazine disconnect is removed. FBI models worked this way..
S&W 1046- 5.00" barrel double action only,
S&W 1086- 4.25" barrel double action only, this pistol has to be partially cocked to be able to double action. By that I mean when you rack the slide to chamber a round the hammer remains partially cocked, there is NO DECOCKING FEATURE! Also the 1086 if you have a failure to fire you can not cock the hammer by squeezing the trigger a second time to fire. No Second Strike Capability. You would have to eject the round or move the slide rearward some to re-set the action to have the trigger cock the double action hammer again. Some models can be fired without the magazine present if the magazine disconnect is removed. Notice the tang looks smaller because the slide is longer in the rear, to cover the cocked hammer therefore the tang/beaver tail of the 1046/1086 looks shorter than the 1006/1066, 1026/1076.
I like 10mm, I have a few including a G20 Gen5, Ruger SR1911 and GP100 Match Champion. I like the .40 too, the smaller size lends itself to better carry than the 10mm does. Both are versatile options, the 10mm somewhat more so because you can shoot .40 from most 10mm's (albeit with less accuracy). I've always liked the .400" bore, loads can range from light and fast to heavy and slower with a good range of bullet weight options.
It's a shame what Federal, Hornady, CCI, etc have done with 10mm Auto. SIG stuff isn't too bad, but handholds are exquisite. A 200 grain pill running 1300FPS is a hoot.
Underwood....
@@Brandon-to9vp Bingo!
I think the FBI shootout your talking about was the famous Miami shootout in 1986.. not 1983..
Very interesting. I love both the 10mm and the .40 SW but I did not realize how closely they matched up. Thanks.
The 40 is just a chopped down 10. FBI chopped them because they had extra space in the shell with their FBI powder charges
Enjoy the historical reviews. Thank you
After watching your video I get back into 10mm I will RELOAD it to my specks
I can’t speak of the 10mm I do not on one. I do own the .357 magnum & I have always loved the .357 but it’s hard recoil & ear piercing when fired keeps me from shooting it a lot. Great informative video & more importantly your total honesty about the reality of the 10 mm. God bless!!!
Shooting a .357 with some hot loads better gold tight. Stand behind it when being fired you can feel the percussion
10mm is my go to and fave too. G-20 gen-3. I only shoot true 10mm loads also… none of that FBI lite/.40 and again. I promise your control rounds were over the counter standard 10mm brands, which are all FBI lite. Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Underwood, and HPR, and Sig Sauer are all true 10mm loads pushing 180 grain bullets at 1,250 FPS.
I have a glock 20 gen 3 too,favorite gun,fun to shoot
Saving this info as my wife just got me a G20 and was just learning the load types. Thanks
@@PennsylvaniaDualSport cool and yes, to the very least, buy AAC ammo for the cheapest but quality. I’ve made a few vids on AAC but most of that over the counter stuff is basically .40 loads. The 10mm does have a wallop sonic you are not recoil sensitive you will love it. Good luck with it 😎👍🏽
I really do appreciate the unbiased opinions presented in your videos Rodney. I know it can be difficult to state the truth regarding something personally considered to be a "favorite". Kudos for having the integrity to do so.
Another good video
I have 9mm and 10mm. The 10mm my favorite.
i carry a Combat Commander sized 1911 in 10mm and the only rounds i ever carry/shoot are the Buffalo bore outdoorsman hardcast lead flat-nosed rounds
LOVE the 10mm and it DOES have a lot of users. Underwood or Buffalo makes GREAT real 10mm and it's a NONE issue to shoot them. My wife with small hands handles my G20 with zero issues. She does not care for my G23 .40, but I like that one too.
Should have tried underwood 10mm they have 1300 and 1700fps rounds
Love the video 😎 very informative keep em coming "load"
In a pich, .40cal works just fine out of a 10mm. You can also manipulate the head space when loading .40cal to be used in a 10mm by not seating the bullet deep in the case.
Before the first commercial 10mm hit, the was a segment of the shooting sports folks experimenting with .40 cal autos. D&D and Norma splashed out the "new" gun/cart combo and we all know what happened😢 ! The FBI , as you mentioned, went all in....and found to thier surprise that most line folks were lawyers and accountants (!?) , not shooters...hence the "lite" load. But, but...but...why have a huge, service/duty wep with "lite" loads? LOL
From the start...even before if you consider custom wildcats and prototypes,, the 10mm was toyed with by competition shooters, as it would make "major" without either being a (slow?) .45 or blowing up (".38 super-face). Early on, there was naught but heavy, service weapon size single stacks; but race-gun guys, mostly IPSC, wanted hi-cap...and lighter guns.
"OH! If we only had a 10mm that would fit in hi-cap, 9mm size magazines!"
Thus , the .40 S&W was born; potentially leaving the 10mm an orphan...for quite some time.
Thanks for you input and helping to keep the 10mm alive
An original Bren 10 is on my list of guns I want one day. And since I've reloaded my own 10mm for almost 20 years I've got my own recipe. About halfway between today's manufacturers load and say Black Hills as a reference. I shoot a 1990's vintage EAA Witness and just got one of the S&W M&P 2.0 10mm long slide pistols. I never intend to carry either one other than to the range so I don't keep much factory ammo.. Prices around here in North Georgia are still above $50/50 a box for FMJ but my reloads run about $12/50. I consider 10mm to be my finisher.. Last thing I shoot and after a magazine or two I'm finished shooting for the week..
I just bought my first 10mm a Hi Point JXP10mm....I LOVE THIS ROUND!!...No going back ....I'm now a Fan boy....Awsome Round the Best!!😊❤❤
What brands of ammo should I buy if I want the properly spicey full power 10 mm? I can handle the recoil for what I need. Thank you
1200+ fps is fairly easy to find. I have 1200 to 1500 in my closet and love shooting it in my 5.25 XDM FDE. Can put 3 shot groups at 25 yds. inside a playing card. Good enough for me.
I 💙 10mm.
Reloading your own 10mm is the way to go!
I see myself loving 10mm .
I want a 10mm in a 1911 platform. Not for carry of course but for hunting or a sidearm for when I am woods walking.
Edit: I have heard that double tap makes some really good ammo for the 10mm but like you said, most people will not like the recoil.
Since most people don't reload,which 10mm commercial ammo do you recommend for self defense?
none
Underwood, Sig V Crown, Double Tap to name a few.
1:10 *1986*
Holy shit that intro was loud with earphones!
All my duty stuff far surpasses 40. Underwood, sig, silvertip, even have some pmc thats hot. My target load are just plajn ol targer loads that dont need to be up there.
Well...... this didn't age well. 10mm is becoming more and more popular and the ammunition is at 1250 fps for the cheapest 180 grain round and rounds being available that are much lighter and WAY faster at over 2000 fps. I personally own a glock 20, an Eagle XL and The M&P performance center. The glock is fantastic, reliable and has a modern capacity. The Iver Johnson is the 1911 but with a 6" ported barrel and the Smith is like a combination of the two of them with all the bells and whistles available for a modern auto pistol including the capacity of the glock, the look of the 1911 and the trigger of a competition ready shooter. They are absolutely fantastic and the most powerful handgun you can reasonably carry concealed. They do make smaller versions for smaller people, but I'm just happy they fit in my big fat paws..... barely.
Perceived value. 10mm must be better than 9mm. Maybe you should research sales numbers of the three 10mm Glocks. G20, G29 and G40 pistols. And the other 10mm pistol sales. Possibly the real world 10mm sales are stronger than your forecast, and there is a popular attraction greater than you project.
I just purchased a 10mm Glock G40. I also own a few 9mm, .45acp, 7.62X25TT, .22LR, .22wmr pistols.
Good discussion.
72 male, New Hampshire 💥☮️🇺🇲
Was issued 175 gr silver tip JHP signicantly more potent than my FBI partners 10mm he was issued. 1250 FPS if I recall correctly.
What caliber for the silver tips?
@@rockystelone21 Rocky 10mm and are full power loads as well. Carry these for personal defense and would be good in black bear country too
Here is an easy way to do it.
If your 10 mm cartridge does not have a 200 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1200 feet per second, it's not a 10 mm.
See? That was easy
I carry a 10 mm
Internet “gun experts” who favor 9mm due to the “cheaper price” (pandemic says otherwise), The FBI, and tactical/competition communities, have all stated that folks who are interested in going back to or are interested (due to lack of access and efficiency of performance in standard 9mm) in the 40 S&W because the 40 off the self ammo is more potent and efficient in it’s performance than it’s 9mm counterpart.
I can understand if someone PRACTICE and CARRY 9mm duty loads which are bonded and loaded to +p/+p+, but for the majority of folks they’re either getting regular self defense rounds or are CARRYING duty rounds but never practiced with them at all. But to get back to my point, these same proponents for 9mm telling everyone that the 40 S&W is dead and that they should just get 10MM are just simply WRONG.
My question to 9mm to 10mm proponents is this, if you don’t like the recoil of 40 S&W, but yet would prefer the even MORE recoil than 40 S&W with 10mm and and just as expensive as 45acp, then why push it on the rest of us? I know why, because of marketing. The gun community is easily influenced by marketing just like any hyper-consumerism that is out there from Air Jordans to Mustangs. This video from this gun channel is just one of the few valuable common sense things I’ve heard. I like the 9mm and it’s a great round but I feel more confident in the 40 S&W to do what I’ll need it to do and I don’t have to go on a quest to get duty loads when I can get 180gr for more penetration, 165gr for duty to compact sized handguns, and 155gr for any subcompact that has a < 3.5 to 3 inch barrel all right off the self. Forgive me if this comes off as a rant but I’ve long ignored the internet commandos for a long while, but this channel just like Paul Harrell’s channel is not one of those and I appreciate it very much. Thanks and another great video. 👍🏿💯🇺🇸
The whole caliber debate is silly if you think about it. Any caliber, including.22 short, will kill a human being at the right range and a well placed shot. We humans are very easy to kill. I like the banter of the debates, kinda like politicians do, but it does get old after a while. I have carried 9mm, .40, .45 and 357 magnum because I kept hearing people say that this cartridge is better, no this one is better. I have learned over the years from looking at police shootings and coroner's reports, that 2 well placed shots, with whatever caliber, in vital areas, at self defense distances will usually take care of the problem. I am now back to carrying 9mm with 124 grain ball ammo.
They all fall to hard ball!
You're talking about target ammo. All those companies load FMJ light regardless the caliber. If 10mm is your favorite pistol caliber, why are you not running Buffalo Bore, Underwood, Fenix or Double Tap? They all push a 180gr bullet over 1300fps and actually outperform Norma loadings. Anyone who owns and loves the 10 knows the real stuff from the watered down garbage.
Will a hot 10mm kill a human any more dead than a factory loaded 10mm? Just wondering.
Great video
Was using 10 MM S&W and had a COLT love the ROUND my dad new a SOUTHERN GUY at work that reload for me he made them so HOT they could smoke a 357 MAG with no trouble and with big grain bullet
It is definely not a “.40” it is way better!
I'll stick with the 45 Super!
God’s round
Thumbs down, sounds like Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh.
My favorite 38 special, 357 magnum, 45 acp, 44 special, 44 magnum, 10mm, 9 mm
Underwood 200 gr jhp 10mm.
What a delicious round