Michel, that is a great idea. I'm trying to something similar on my 111-year-old South Bend lathe. I bought an 8-inch (~200mm) 4-independent-jaw chuck to replace the very worn-out 3-jaw chuck, but need to make a backplate for it. I didn't (yet) have the needed change gears to thread it to fit the spindle, but was able to get a Machinist at work to thread a rough plate for me to finish before I retired. Of course, the 1-inch (~25mm) wide leather drive belt insists on slipping when I take a cut more than a couple of thousandths of an inch (~0.05mm) deep, causing the spindle to quit turning. I think it's time to get a new belt since belt dressing doesn't seem to help! ;P I figured that with limited funds, I'd buy a 4-jaw to be able to chuck "anything" (of reasonable size) and simply take longer to dial parts in, and worry about buying a replacement 3-jaw later (if I ever do).
G'day Rusti, you're videos are so good! You're a real thinker, problem solver and comedian. And let's not forget a great educator. Keep up the great work.
Well thought out modification. I particularly liked the slow motion turning over the discontinuity (14:00) if you closed your eyes it sounded like the shaping machine!! Good luck from Spain!!
Loved the slow motion footage of your lathe cutting. When better proof that a lathe is no more than a rotary shaper. Fabulous engineering Michel, just fabulous 👏👏👍😀 Andrew
Another Rusti special in innovative set-up, very clever 👏, and executed perfectly . First time I noticed the solid tool post support, ref compound slide deletion. thanks for sharing and stay safe all.
Nice job. Thanks for showing the tap breaking loose in tailstock chuck. I thought I was the only one with universal automatic tap clutch - LOL. All the best Dan
What you did was absolutely brilliant! I bought that ~same 4 jaw chuck and it's been sitting in the box for over a year because of that exact same problem with excessive stick out. - - Before I forget, or some reason, the factory put huge chamfers on the corners of the jaws of my chuck; where they slide through the chuck body - yet every single edge and corner of the jaws still had sharp burrs that I had to remove. (If left alone, I think they would quickly chew up the cast iron body.) If you haven't done so already, I'd recommend that you check your chuck for those same burrs. I don't know what brand name is on yours (mine was advertised as "Steelhorse" on Amazon, but came in a box labeled "Shop Fox". Regardless of the name, I'd bet they came out of the same factory. With that out of the way, I think I'll borrow your idea! (Fortunately for me, my lathe can cut its own thread; 2-1/4" × 8 TPI.) I'll do the same hollowing out of the back like you did but, since I can cut my own thread, I think I'll make my back plate 'backwards'. - 'Backwards' meaning a mirror image of the typical backplate, with the thick center hump that holds the threads & registration seat pointing into the chuck body instead of sticking out the back; reducing overhang instead of increasing it. (There's plenty of space inside the bore.) If it works as I hope it will, the back face of the chuck will come flush with the spindle nose! Side note 1: I wonder how much material can be removed from the full diameter of the back of this chuck before it starts compromising its rigidity (or interfering with functionality of the jaw screw parts)? Side note 2: Do you have a friend with a lathe that can cut the spindle thread you need? If not, you could probably have a local machine shop cut them for you. If you make the part yourself, all the way up to where it's time to cut the threads, it shouldn't cost a lot just to have them do the threading. Thank you sir for another excellent video! 👍👍👍
Go for it Doug. It's better to try something than letting it rust in a box. And indeed. first thing I did when I bought it, was taking it apart and clean and deburr the thing :)
Mmm! Trying to take the slack out if my headstock bearings at the moment. Got .6mm of lift but the Lathe is 80 years old. You've just highlighted a problem that I didn't think of. Thanks Michel 👍🏻👍🏻
That looks like a you ended up with a great result, and it certainly sounds like much less chatter than before, but you are definately putting much less stress on the headsock front bearing. I am working my way through your videos, and I love your approach to tackling problems, you are very inspiring, thanks Rusti!
Bold move! 😃. I too get some pretty nice chatter with my big 4-jaw, most likely due to the same reason. It's gotten quite a bit better since I reshimmed my babbit bearings but still takes up a lot of real estate on my little lathe. The original had a much shorter profile 😏. In any case, clever setup! The lower profile looks great too! Well done! 👍😁👍 Cheers!
Great work, well done! As always, well filmed and presented in Your usual spirit. Your experience of chatter in the very first try, thanks for pointing it out. I once bought a 5 inch rotary table and a 5" 3 jaw for the rotary table. They match perfectly. One day LMS in US advertised about an adapter adapting that 5" chuck to mini lathes equipped with 4" chucks as standard. It did fit perfectly without any turning! When starting the lathe I need to ramp up the speed from zero. Else I feel that the power transistors in the control box are jumping in and out. The chuck is in place and I will do some tests regarding just the chatter You pointed out. Thanks again Michel!
In the afternoons... a very good option to make larger pieces is on the plate that you have with 3 claws, which has removable claws, so you can make extended false claws with a piece of steel and you can do them without any problem in the milling machine... like this you could hold pieces up to the maximum turn of your lathe...it is an option that I usually use and that is economical and very reliable...perhaps for another occasion you can make the extended claws and perhaps a few more sets to have soft claws for yourself lathe in an economical way and that many jobs will be solved for you... greetings from asturias spain
I could have sworn these cylindrical pieces you machined partways into were there to hold the jaw screws in place - live and learn. Now I know alot more can be taken out of a chuck than I ever thought!
@@Rustinox I was thinking about having to change 2 bearing races on a lathe when switching to a larger / heavier chuck . It basically eliminated chatter and helped with runout issues . Thanks for sharing your expertise and ATB.
Just an idea, you could have used the chuck body to give you the hole layout, start with the diameter of the hole to centre it then table locked, chuck clamped down, drill tapping size, thread and bolt to hold in place, rinse and repeat! Cheers, Matthew
Hi Rusti, fantastic modification, well thought out and very well executed. Rigidity is king on any machine so anything you can do to get closer to the support is totally the right thing to do. Excellent job mate, well done. Cheers, Jon
The part left would make an awesome rotary table build. Awesome work Michael. I have been dreading replacing the 4 jaw on my Logan for one of these chucks as they seem to have a huge body for no real reason other than to use metal. Your solution is very elegant. Is there a way you can come up with a reduction gear set to make the lathe cut the thread you need? I know you have made gears in the past.
@@Rustinox How about if you step down twice on a spare, unused or new stub shaft, within the case? Great video as always and causes the grey matter to work.
I think we both went to the same "little rocket" school. 😎 Unfortunately I didn't check the hardness on mine and I had a very difficult time machining them.
Hi Rusti, why can’t you cut the 4.5mm pitch you need for your backplate? Is it because the lead screw re pitch is too fine? - some say you should not cut pitches larger than the lead screw to avoid overloading ( but people do it) it or is it that you do not have the gears? I have.3D printed change gears and would be happy to make the ones you need for you.
Ok but I think we can solve this with compound gearing or change the module to reduce the gear diameters, you are not the first to have this problem., it would make an interesting video. Can’t remember if you have a public email?
Maybe the bite into the work piece from the jaws is causing the noisy cut. Try some soft metal between the work piece and the jaws and see if that make any difference.
Scary, but it worked great! I don't understand where the chatter is coming from. You'd think: massive chuck means less chatter. Maybe the spindle attachment is too weak for such a big chuck? Hopefully not.
Looks Like the 4 Jaw will be a good addition to the lathe. I noticed there might be be a problem when trying to large diameter pieces of material. Expanding the jaws might be limited, because they might crash with the bed way. Don't ask how I know? What projects have you planned for the 4 Jaw?
Can it cut 18tpi if so just run the gear train 4xs faster and it’ll cut 4.5 I had to do something similar to cut a 6.5tpi thread my lathe has the ability to cut 13tpi so I just ran a 40tooth head gear instead of the 80 and it worked like a charm
Hi Michel ☺ nice job on making the 4jaw chuck fit your backplate, accuracy is good, and clocking in a workpiece should not be a problem. I wonder what you'll make from the old chuck spacer, ? I have a feeling your mind is already working on that,lol . Thanks for another interesting video mate, stay safe, best wishe's to you and your's, Stuart UK.
Michel, given that your previous backplate video was the centre of my machining universe, I'm going to have to review my theories on the beginnings of life. :D That was well done mon ami. Too bad you can't cut 4 1/2 threads on that lathe or you could have made a spindle protector and latched on to that with the 4 jaw. And by the way, I think she needs a name. Go for it. ;) Gilles
Nicely done, and another entertaining watch. Many thanks! 👍 🇬🇧
Thanks.
Even more impressive to get the backplate to fit so well using a pair of dividers! I think Stefan would be impressed.
I think I was Lucky this time :)
Michel, that is a great idea. I'm trying to something similar on my 111-year-old South Bend lathe. I bought an 8-inch (~200mm) 4-independent-jaw chuck to replace the very worn-out 3-jaw chuck, but need to make a backplate for it. I didn't (yet) have the needed change gears to thread it to fit the spindle, but was able to get a Machinist at work to thread a rough plate for me to finish before I retired. Of course, the 1-inch (~25mm) wide leather drive belt insists on slipping when I take a cut more than a couple of thousandths of an inch (~0.05mm) deep, causing the spindle to quit turning. I think it's time to get a new belt since belt dressing doesn't seem to help! ;P I figured that with limited funds, I'd buy a 4-jaw to be able to chuck "anything" (of reasonable size) and simply take longer to dial parts in, and worry about buying a replacement 3-jaw later (if I ever do).
I think if you have a good working 4-jaw, you don't really need a 3-jaw anymore. Thanks for your comment, Bob.
G'day Rusti, you're videos are so good! You're a real thinker, problem solver and comedian. And let's not forget a great educator. Keep up the great work.
Thanks Rod.
Well thought out modification.
I particularly liked the slow motion turning over the discontinuity (14:00) if you closed your eyes it sounded like the shaping machine!!
Good luck from Spain!!
Lol. Thanks David.
Ahoy Rusti! That was some clever problem-solving. I don’t think I’d have been bold enough. Love the slow motion
Thanks Dudly.
Loved the slow motion footage of your lathe cutting. When better proof that a lathe is no more than a rotary shaper.
Fabulous engineering Michel, just fabulous 👏👏👍😀 Andrew
Or the shaper is a linear lathe... ?
Another Rusti special in innovative set-up, very clever 👏, and executed perfectly .
First time I noticed the solid tool post support, ref compound slide deletion.
thanks for sharing and stay safe all.
The top slide didn't clear the tail stock on small diametes, so I made this solid tool post.
@@Rustinox Interesting. 👍
Gday Rustinox, this made a big difference, excellent job, thanks for sharing mate, cheers
Thanks Matty. Future will tell if it works.
Nice job. Thanks for showing the tap breaking loose in tailstock chuck. I thought I was the only one with universal automatic tap clutch - LOL.
All the best
Dan
It's a typical problem with taps in drill chucks.
Ingenious. Always exciting to have a big lump spinning around in the lathe. Cheers
Thanks Paul.
Great job as always Michel !👍👍
Thanks Al.
What you did was absolutely brilliant! I bought that ~same 4 jaw chuck and it's been sitting in the box for over a year because of that exact same problem with excessive stick out.
- - Before I forget, or some reason, the factory put huge chamfers on the corners of the jaws of my chuck; where they slide through the chuck body - yet every single edge and corner of the jaws still had sharp burrs that I had to remove. (If left alone, I think they would quickly chew up the cast iron body.) If you haven't done so already, I'd recommend that you check your chuck for those same burrs. I don't know what brand name is on yours (mine was advertised as "Steelhorse" on Amazon, but came in a box labeled "Shop Fox". Regardless of the name, I'd bet they came out of the same factory.
With that out of the way, I think I'll borrow your idea! (Fortunately for me, my lathe can cut its own thread; 2-1/4" × 8 TPI.)
I'll do the same hollowing out of the back like you did but, since I can cut my own thread, I think I'll make my back plate 'backwards'.
- 'Backwards' meaning a mirror image of the typical backplate, with the thick center hump that holds the threads & registration seat pointing into the chuck body instead of sticking out the back; reducing overhang instead of increasing it. (There's plenty of space inside the bore.) If it works as I hope it will, the back face of the chuck will come flush with the spindle nose!
Side note 1: I wonder how much material can be removed from the full diameter of the back of this chuck before it starts compromising its rigidity (or interfering with functionality of the jaw screw parts)?
Side note 2: Do you have a friend with a lathe that can cut the spindle thread you need? If not, you could probably have a local machine shop cut them for you. If you make the part yourself, all the way up to where it's time to cut the threads, it shouldn't cost a lot just to have them do the threading.
Thank you sir for another excellent video! 👍👍👍
Go for it Doug. It's better to try something than letting it rust in a box.
And indeed. first thing I did when I bought it, was taking it apart and clean and deburr the thing :)
Nice solution and problem solving, thanks for bring us along Rusty !
Thanks Dean.
Mmm!
Trying to take the slack out if my headstock bearings at the moment. Got .6mm of lift but the Lathe is 80 years old. You've just highlighted a problem that I didn't think of. Thanks Michel 👍🏻👍🏻
0,6 is a lot. Well, good luck with it.
That looks like a you ended up with a great result, and it certainly sounds like much less chatter than before, but you are definately putting much less stress on the headsock front bearing. I am working my way through your videos, and I love your approach to tackling problems, you are very inspiring, thanks Rusti!
That's nice, Dave. Thanks. I appreciate it.
Bold move! 😃. I too get some pretty nice chatter with my big 4-jaw, most likely due to the same reason. It's gotten quite a bit better since I reshimmed my babbit bearings but still takes up a lot of real estate on my little lathe. The original had a much shorter profile 😏.
In any case, clever setup! The lower profile looks great too! Well done! 👍😁👍
Cheers!
Thanks Chris. I'm sure you will figure out what's going on with your lathe.
Excellent video Michel, nice bit of machining. Enjoyed very much, cheers!
Thanks Howie.
Great video Michel. Brilliant idea you had & executed.
Regards
Steve.
Thanks Steve.
Hello Michael,
Interesting approach to solving the stickout problem... Looks like it will work fine...
Cheers.
Paul,,
Thanks Paul. I still have to test it properly.
Good creative solution!! The holy grail of machining “Rigidity”
Spot on.
Great work, well done! As always, well filmed and presented in Your usual spirit.
Your experience of chatter in the very first try, thanks for pointing it out. I once bought a 5 inch rotary table and a 5" 3 jaw for the rotary table. They match perfectly.
One day LMS in US advertised about an adapter adapting that 5" chuck to mini lathes equipped with 4" chucks as standard. It did fit perfectly without any turning!
When starting the lathe I need to ramp up the speed from zero. Else I feel that the power transistors in the control box are jumping in and out.
The chuck is in place and I will do some tests regarding just the chatter You pointed out.
Thanks again Michel!
Thanks Stefan. The problem with big chucks on small lathes :)
In the afternoons... a very good option to make larger pieces is on the plate that you have with 3 claws, which has removable claws, so you can make extended false claws with a piece of steel and you can do them without any problem in the milling machine... like this you could hold pieces up to the maximum turn of your lathe...it is an option that I usually use and that is economical and very reliable...perhaps for another occasion you can make the extended claws and perhaps a few more sets to have soft claws for yourself lathe in an economical way and that many jobs will be solved for you... greetings from asturias spain
That's a good tip. I will keep it in mind.
I could have sworn these cylindrical pieces you machined partways into were there to hold the jaw screws in place - live and learn.
Now I know alot more can be taken out of a chuck than I ever thought!
Indeed, they hold the jaw screws in place. But I think with the cut out they will still work fine. Future will tell.
Great idea! Looks like it'll work at least a little better.
I still have to find out.
hi michel,
practicallity at it's best 👍👍👍👍👍
cheers
Kev uk
Thanks Kev.
Most interesting. I need a beer and cigarette while thinking about this. Have a great day and weekend Rustinox.
A beer and cigarette I can understand. But don't think too much :)
@@Rustinox I was thinking about having to change 2 bearing races on a lathe when switching to a larger / heavier chuck .
It basically eliminated chatter and helped with runout issues . Thanks for sharing your expertise and ATB.
@@QuantumMechanic_88 A bigger headstock bearing , That has to be a good follow up !!!
AS usual excellent video and outside the box thought...
Thanks Glenn.
Great build…enjoyed
Thanks Chuck.
God bless you never give up. !!!!!!!!!
Why should I? :)
Just an idea, you could have used the chuck body to give you the hole layout, start with the diameter of the hole to centre it then table locked, chuck clamped down, drill tapping size, thread and bolt to hold in place, rinse and repeat! Cheers, Matthew
That could have worked too, but I have difficulties to lift the thing on and off the machine.
Great improvement Rustinox. Tony
Thanks Tony.
Hi Rusti, fantastic modification, well thought out and very well executed. Rigidity is king on any machine so anything you can do to get closer to the support is totally the right thing to do. Excellent job mate, well done. Cheers, Jon
Thanks Jon.
That made a great improvement in rigidity. Very accurate machining. Great job!
Indeed. It's a lot better. Thanks.
Thanks for sharing!
My pleasure.
Amazing Michael, You are much braver than I. No way in hell would I have attempted that job. Nicely done!
Why not? Just go for it and see what happens.
Great project, nicely done
Thanks Jim.
Thanks for sharing buddy
My pleasure, Ralfy.
great video Michel, a worth while improvement to rigidity and well explained. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks Roy. My pleasure.
Good improvement!
Thanks Allen.
The part left would make an awesome rotary table build. Awesome work Michael. I have been dreading replacing the 4 jaw on my Logan for one of these chucks as they seem to have a huge body for no real reason other than to use metal. Your solution is very elegant. Is there a way you can come up with a reduction gear set to make the lathe cut the thread you need? I know you have made gears in the past.
There's not enough room in the case to put bigger gears in place.
@@Rustinox i see. Hmmm. That is an interesting conundrum.
Looks like a win to me.
Thanks Tom. I think so too.
Well done! But it looks like you could really do with a set of change gears (or an "electronic leadscrew") to be able to cut more threads.
I have some change gears, but there's not enough room in the casing to put bigger.
@@Rustinox How about if you step down twice on a spare, unused or new stub shaft, within the case?
Great video as always and causes the grey matter to work.
Nice solution
I think so too.
Nice, really nice! You genius! yup.
Thanks Alan. I'm not genius. I just make things.
Excellent job rusty, great video, keep'um coming..
Thanks. That's the plan.
I think we both went to the same "little rocket" school. 😎
Unfortunately I didn't check the hardness on mine and I had a very difficult time machining them.
Lol. I did check and had it wrong :)
Hi Rusti, why can’t you cut the 4.5mm pitch you need for your backplate? Is it because the lead screw re pitch is too fine? - some say you should not cut pitches larger than the lead screw to avoid overloading ( but people do it) it or is it that you do not have the gears? I have.3D printed change gears and would be happy to make the ones you need for you.
Thanks Tony. But the gears I need for this would be too big to fit in the machine.
Ok but I think we can solve this with compound gearing or change the module to reduce the gear diameters, you are not the first to have this problem., it would make an interesting video. Can’t remember if you have a public email?
@@tonyray91 rustinox@outlook.com
It's in the "about" section of the channel.
I see gravity works in your workshop as it does in mine 🙏
I thing it's a global problem...
Hi Michel :)
Nice job.
Thanks Pawel.
Maybe the bite into the work piece from the jaws is causing the noisy cut. Try some soft metal between the work piece and the jaws and see if that make any difference.
I tried that before. It doesn't make any difference. But, thanks for the tip.
Which thread do you exactly need? Maybe my EMCO Maximat can do this? With only one backplate its boring to change every time.
It looks like a standard M45 x 4,5.
May I suggest the phrase "pop-bottle rocket science"? Lovely job, by the way!
Suggestions are always welcome :)
Michel, sounds like the bearings need readjustment, if possible. If not, a new set will help.
Well no. The bearings are fine. It's just a small machine with a big chuck.
Scary, but it worked great! I don't understand where the chatter is coming from. You'd think: massive chuck means less chatter. Maybe the spindle attachment is too weak for such a big chuck? Hopefully not.
I think the spindle is flexing between the bearings. After all, it's a big chuck for a small lathe.
Looks Like the 4 Jaw will be a good addition to the lathe. I noticed there might be be a problem when trying to large diameter pieces of material. Expanding the jaws might be limited, because they might crash with the bed way. Don't ask how I know? What projects have you planned for the 4 Jaw?
If I setup a workpiese that large, I think the whole lathe will tip over :)
Can it cut 18tpi if so just run the gear train 4xs faster and it’ll cut 4.5 I had to do something similar to cut a 6.5tpi thread my lathe has the ability to cut 13tpi so I just ran a 40tooth head gear instead of the 80 and it worked like a charm
In theorie, you can cut whatever pitch you want, if you have the right gears. There's not enough room in the case to put bigger gears in.
Hi Michel ☺ nice job on making the 4jaw chuck fit your backplate, accuracy is good, and clocking in a workpiece should not be a problem. I wonder what you'll make from the old chuck spacer, ? I have a feeling your mind is already working on that,lol . Thanks for another interesting video mate, stay safe, best wishe's to you and your's, Stuart UK.
Thanks Stuart. And for the old backplate? Well...
Is it not possible turn your backplate that the treath of your backplate is inside 4 jaw chuck even shorter greets ronnie
There is a registering ring that fits on the spindle on one side of the plate, so...
Michel, given that your previous backplate video was the centre of my machining universe, I'm going to have to review my theories on the beginnings of life. :D That was well done mon ami. Too bad you can't cut 4 1/2 threads on that lathe or you could have made a spindle protector and latched on to that with the 4 jaw. And by the way, I think she needs a name. Go for it. ;) Gilles
The chicken or the egg...
@@Rustinox haha good answer
Now I know why I am convinced that German engineering is superior!
I Think every country can make great things :)
Make the plate a bird feeder, or a bowl for nuts, maybe
Sounds like a plan :)