The COMPLICATED Legacy of St John Paul II w/ Fr. Gregory Pine, O.P.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
- St. John Paul II was a great Pope and a holy man. With that in mind how should we as faithful Catholics handle the bad things, that we are now finding out, happened during his papacy?
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I'm only 10 minutes in and I wanna say that I love your honesty! So many Priests today would beat around the bush but you are stating all of the huge parts of this modernist crisis that we're in.
I agree!! I encourage you to talk about these issues more on all the platforms you have available. Those of us trying to live faithful Catholic lives need honest and balanced conversations about what is going on within the Church as well as outside of it. It is exhausting to try to withstand the constant controversies or even to make sense of them. Thank you, Father Gregory, for being an honest and trustworthy voice amid the din.
I really like your edits.
Whether or not JPII’s pontificate was good, I do not know; what I do know is that I was lost in Protestantism, and his pontificate brought me home.
I couldn't imagine a better comment. Three Hail Marys from me to Our Lady for YOU.
Amazing, thank you for sharing that ❤
JP11 along with several others also influenced me to become Catholic also. We must keep in mind no one is perfect.
But that doesn’t even make any sense
JP2 was a good man
I loved JP2. His bravery against the culture of the 20th century, his defense of the Polish people, his defense of life and family, his strength in disciplining liberation theologians. He inspired many in my generation.
defense of life and family?
As a historian I discovered some actions of great saints that were very unreasonable and shortly after their deaths others had to fix the results of those very well motivated but "wrong" decisions. I think we are not very used to deal with the complexity of a person's life and since now we have the internet its very easy for us to point the finger.
Such as...?
This is a dumb argument JP2 Presided over the greatest Destruction of the Catholic faith since The protestant revolt And the bad fruits of his And his contemporaries decisions were clearly visible during his life
I was telling my wife the mortification of eSt Elizabeth of Hungary, directed by Franciscans, is an example of that. But, she is still a super Saint, and we don't have many like her now.
As a* historian. The h isn't silent
@@chrisg0001 Actually, the “an” is correct here. It’s not commonly seen anymore, and few teachers correct it, so I suppose it could be considered old usage, and superseded.
JP2 was hated by the demons. Some of these demons complained during exorcisms that JP2 stole many young people's souls from their clutches through his worldwide evangelism of the youth during his long pontificate. JP2 was an extremely charismatic Pope who travelled the world spreading the gospel. We were blessed to have had JP2 as a Pope in my opinion.
Yes, very blessed by having a child rapist made a cardinal...
Greatest saint of our time. We hate authority as Lucifer does, ie non-servium
@@aislinndeweston4140 The fact that you believe the name muslims give to God [Allah] means God suddenly becomes a demon, only serves to demonstrate you are filled with blind hatred in your heart. The muslims have erroneous understanding on God, granted, but they do try their best to praise the one true God with all their heart. They have yet to understand Jesus is the Son of God, but they at least respect Him as a prophet. How can someone serving a demon would praise and respect our Lord Jesus Christ? Is up to us to teach them with love and set an example of beatitude. Not to point fingers and scream like a bedeviled heretic.
[Matthew 12:26 proves you are not of God's love and light, but a slave to despotism.]
Also the title is Adonai [not Adonis, nor Adonia]., which simply means "My Lord".
@@aislinndeweston4140 And you prove to not be a Christian, so that's that. Good day. ma'am.
@@stevesawicki2062 how is elevating a child rapist to Cardinal great?
Very informative and balanced video. I think going forward, we have to deal with having way more information about the saints than we used to have. They were great people, but not perfect.
We are all imperfect but there are some forces out there that wish to discredit the work of the saints by only referencing one bad thing about them.
Some saints were actually horrific. St. Paul gleefully killed Christians before his conversion to Christianity. Some saints were prostitutes, alcoholics, drug addicts. They were human and we pick them as saints not because they were perfect but because we can see God’s work through them.
@@emiliawisniewski3947 I love this! “…not because they were perfect but because we can see God’s work through them.”
This is the issue of our time. information overload
@@emiliawisniewski3947 Okay, but a big difference there is that's what those Saints did before their conversion. John Paul II received blessing rites from shamans, put a Buddha statue on a tabernacle, and did nothing when James Grein told him personally that McCarrick was abusing him all while pope. And he really never publicly repented of those things...
I am humbled by this young man! At 56 years old, I have somewhat despaired - it’s very encouraging to see a bright young man acknowledge a difficult situation, and approach it with hope
I am a traditionalist who attends the old Latin rite and who harbors the same misgivings about JP2. This is one of the most reasonable and honest discussions of the topic I've heard. The problem in reacting to the conservative Catholics who formed a cult of personality around JP2 is in reacting too strongly in the other direction. He did face a very difficult time and navigated out one of the most difficult places, Communist Poland, so we have to keep that in mind.
Also... Ecclesia Dei was great I would say.
To be fair, it wasn’t just Catholics who formed this cult of personality. I have atheist family who revere JP2 as a saviour of the Polish nation, his Catholic misgivings aren’t interesting to them because they just attribute these misgivings to the Church as a whole. Catholics could learn from those atheists.
Assisi Prayer and the interreligious shenanigans however, were easy to avoid to begin with. There are many ways to promote peace, the prayers of the Faithful and devotion to the Sacred Heart for example.
JPII navigated the Church out of a difficult place into a more difficult place. The scars of the abuse crisis will remain for generations.
@@JohnFromAccounting The first thing to say about that is that it's hard to lay that entirely at his feet. The second thing is that, while terrible, even at the height of the abuse crisis, the rate of child abuse by Catholic priests per capita was less than that of the general population, and half that of U.S. public school teachers. So, keep things in perspective.
I think sometimes you need to step outside of the US and really see that the world is bigger than you think. The Church is doing good and growing in many places such as Africa, Asia and Latam, and that is really thanks to JP2. JP2 in fact fought aggainst many theological problems comming from Latam, and helpend to fix some problems the church had.
Latin America is falling to pentecostalism and secularism. Africa is not increasing in converts, they just have a high birth rate. The only place where the Catholic faith has truly grown is Asia and that's because even the Novus Ordo is better than the demonic pagan traditions that people there are fleeing.
The Church in Africa is losing ground to Protestants in Africa as a result of JPII. The Holy Ghost Fathers, who were led by many great prelates, including Marcel Lefebvre, are largely to thank for the growth of Christianity in the former French colonies.
In Asia, the Church is doing very well in the Philippines and in Korea, doing mildly well in Indonesia, and doing quite poorly everywhere else.
Latin America is significantly worse off than in the past, and I have no idea how you could say otherwise. The Church is bleeding members almost as fast as in Europe.
Main takeaway: ‘The modern world is Crazytown.’ 😆
Great video!
Great thoughts Fr. Gregory!
@@drjanitor3747 I have heard good arguments by Mother Teresa was a saint, but I've heard better arguments that she wasn't. The really frustrating ones as the false visionaries like Faustina.
Most candid I’ve seen Father Gregory and it’s 👏🏻👏🏻. His description of the modern world v Holy Mother Church 🔥🔥
I live in Poland and I can tell you that the hate against the church is what is driving the people who hate the church to malign his name. As per appointments the Pope appoints based on recommendation from the Congregation of Bishops and he would rely on the head of the dicastery to have conducted due diligence. The fact that Benedict XVI appointed good bishops maybe be based on the fact that he had a lot of information about the clergy especially the bad ones by the virtue of his office which enabled him to have dossier of bad clergy.
Do we live in the same country? Because in reality it's hardly the hate for church that is the driving factor here. Recent denial from JP2 defenders is exactly the proof of it.
Father Murr talks about the point you made about who was in charge of recommending Bishops in his book Murder in the 33rd degree.
Also in several interviews he has done which you can find online with people like John Henry Westen from Lifesite News and I think Dr Taylor Marshall and others.
@@drjanitor3747 That's because you are a Dr and were too busy learning your trade.
Learning and knowing the real intricacies of the Catholic faith takes some investment of time and interest.
Are you one of those good doctors that really cares for patients and their health or one of those towing the corrupt pharma party line?
@@drjanitor3747 👌🏻👍🏻
And I'm my own Doctor now too because doctors can't be trusted anymore.
JP2 inherited a mess let's be honest. He did the utmost he could with that he had. Between rebellious clergy (even in his closest circle), growing scandals emerging from decades ago, an increasingly atheistic and pagan and degenerate society and a culture that was more diverse than ever before in history I think JP2 did a pretty good job. It could have been a ALOT worse. When you look at the ballot votes of the 78 conclave, he wasn't even on anyone's radar. He ended up getting the majority vote. HE WAS CHOSEN BY GOD! We may grapple with some things that occurred but he truly was a good and holy man. Naive at times but he was indeed holy. His entire catalog of writings, sermons, encyclicals will be praised by the Church unto the end of time. God bless St. JP2
Putting a demon over the tabernacle is certain death in hell
He and his contemporaries created the mess If I blow up a house and then Pour a new foundation nobody lauds me as a great construction worker
@@BuryMeInBabylon L take
@@sleepystar1638 the Church has infallibly declared him a saint you smooth brain. To say that the Church err in Canonizations is to say that the Church is defective in her magisterium
@@FlexCathedrafromIG L argument
One of the things that some of the critics below share with the modern world is its mercilessness.
Two of the great things that stand out for me are his zeal for spreading the Good News and his diligence in teaching (a large number of landmark encyclicals). He fought against heresy, e.g. in the field of moral theology.
He didn't get everything right on the practical level. So what?
I guess they think they would do a better job. They cant even make a good statement on the comments, and yet they pontificate about everything.
JPII was canonised by his followers while he was still alive. The myths of the man must be replaced by reality.
I think we need heroes and no one is perfect. Leaders are human and do things that will certainly be judged harshly in the future (or now). If someone has to be perfect to be a hero we will have no heroes, ever.
St Teresa of Calcutta has had her fair share of criticism also. Same thing.
The freshest lens to see the complicated legacy of John Paul the Second is through one of ecumenism. A myriad of questions open up. Did he succeed in uniting the church? To a degree. Did he bless the world with a new kind of papacy? Undoubtedly. Did he increase the rigorous doctrine that has upheld the body of the faithful for two millennia? Yes and yes. The only thing left for us to understand is how the man can be seen as the saint he is now canonized as rather than the person he may have been outside of the holy office. I think history will be kind to Karol Wojytla as well as to John Paul the Second: his seamless doctrine of the importance of conscience and human dignity will see us into the 21st century and the future age thereafter.
BRILLIANT! Thank you so much for being a constant source of faith, wisdom and wit!
Loving your book! Have a Masters from your alma mater, and mentored in TOB under Bishop Olmstead's JP II Institute for TOB & Culture, so love JP2's Theology of the Body. His Trinitarian anthropology which fits nicely with Vatican II's focus on Communion of persons, does not appear in many priest's homilies. We need women teaching TOB. Our diocese has added TOB to their formation, and my husband and I are lucky to be presenting this important development of doctrine. As a woman, I am not uncomfortable with the Jesus as the Bridegroom and the Church as bride analogy and can help men embrace this idea of receptivity more easily perhaps? Keep us in your prayers! (I have also presented TOB to 8th graders for a decade.)
Wisdom and brilliance. Thank you for your service.
PERFECTLY said.
I’m grateful to hear your comments about how tiresome it is to obsessively focus on The Second Vatican Council. It’s as if we’re all obsessed (in the pathological sense) with VII, as though it were “the end of (church) history” itself.
And it’s even more complicated that Pope Francis seems to be completely upending the (what seemed to be) authoritative interpretation of the Council through his predecessors’ pontificates. Roughly 60 years later, and we’re back at the start of this whole “interpretation and implementation” debacle! Will I still be hearing from everyone about Vatican II when I’m 80? Lord have mercy!
I wish we could just move the heck on, like we’ve done with literally every council prior.
I love Saint John Paul II. Yes he made mistakes and maybe in the future we should wait to canonize people so soon but he really reinvigorated devotion to the Blessed Virgin, love for the Eucharist, the youth, Priesthood, etc. in the wake of the post conciliar chaos.
God Bless you Father Pine for having the courage to say this.
You have mentioned so many things I would love to learn about! All those movements in theology sound so interesting!
Thank you. You always speak with intelligence, wisdom, and prudence.😊
Well, Jesus himself picked Judas… so leaders don’t always make the “right” picks. JPII lead people to seek holiness, to love Jesus Christ. I think that is his most important legacy, by far.
Regarding the modern day - it’s like any era, we need to make the Eucharist the center of Christian life. I also think it’s time we more boldly pray as His Church for the conversion of all Protestants, and Mormons, and Muslims, and Atheists - and that the Orthodox reunite with us. We don’t fully appreciate the power of intercessory prayer. We need to do all we can to bring Christ to this world, and all in this world to Christ. Our God waits in every Catholic Church for all. How can we shirk our responsibility to tell the world this?
Jp 2 was human not infallible in every thought, word, and deed, he didn’t know the interior life of everyone he met. No one can do that but God. But his encyclicals and audiences were amazing. He was amazing.
Fr. Gregory, this video was mistitled. It should have been titled "The Complicated Situation We Are In As Catholics in Today’s Modernity".
I agree. It was kind of a mind dump.
I also agree. He said pretty much nothing about, or even with regards to St. John Paul II.
Such a pleasure to listen to. God bless 🙏
Watching on JP2's feast day. I really appreciate the thought you're putting intk the vital issues of our modern age. I've been writing a bunch of Catholic inspired poetry trying to make sense of our modern age I think you'd enjoy.
Fr Gregory, unlike many of the Church people I talk with is not afraid to tell it like it is. We don't need to lie for, enable, protect or otherwise encourage bad conduct.
POPE ST. JOHN PAUL II: “To you, immigrants who find yourselves unwelcome in the lands where you have moved, we send words of encouragement. The Church has walked alongside generations of migrants in the march for a better life, and she will not cease to stand by you with every kind of service. To seasonal workers who toil stooped under the sun to provide for their families, we unite ourselves in solidarity with you in your quest for just working conditions.” -
Synod of Bishops, December 9, 1997
Thank you Father! It was helpful :) Love your article on Magnanimity!
The whole “Pachamama” thing was not an act of idolatry. Watch Reason and Theology’s video about it.
I just wish I understood his references more. I am a cradle Catholic having been educated in Catholic schools all my life through college. I got about half of his references. As an adult I am always learning more but sometimes I want to shy away from understanding the modern world and the church and just pray, worship, receive the sacraments, and ignore as much as possible of the modern world. I guess what I mean is that I want to focus on my faith, my spiritual life and works, my love of Christ and his church rather than always thinking about the societal interprets of it. I love his ending thoughts about being in the world and not of the world.
Well said, especially at the end.
Thank you for this, Fr. Pine. Such a clear and valuable analysis!
Born in '66, I saw John Paul's pontificate esp as a Catholic, take on every error in culture & Church from the 60s & 70s & changed those worlds.
He revived terrible Catecesis;Eucharistic Adoration; devotion to Mary & the Rosary; Priestly formation; Ignited the Pro Life movement; understanding why Communism strips man of God's dignity.
Reaffirmed God's True Feminine Genius; the Sacramental nature of relationship & marital union & inspired the most holy group of young priests I've ever met.
He was largely responsible for the quick end of Soviet Communism.
Recall his Very public reprimand of the socialist Nicaraguan priest Fr. Ernesto Cardenal & imposing ‘a divinis’, banning him & 4 Marxist priests in 1984 from celebrating Mass & the sacraments, which Pope Francis lifted in '19.
In a growing hedonistic, Marxist, sexualized, materialistic world he went out as none before to engage & transform that world & Ignited the Youth of that world to see & seek holiness.
He reaffirmed the God given dignity of the human person and showed us how to live and suffer with Faith.
In a world where governments & media turned against him for his stance on Abortion, Contraception and Devine Femininity & Masculinity he drew thousands to Mass and millions to his death.
He didn't call Vatican II or write all it's contents. He was still yet a "junior" to most clerics there.
Imperfections sure. I don't think he believed priests could be that sexually corrupted.
I don't blame St Thomas Aquinas for the modern rejection of good philosophy, systemic theology or ignoring his writings.
I used TOB with teens & they got it.
I don't blame St. John Paul II for those who turned to materialism, sex, TV & social media instead of his teachings.
Look at the fruits of his pontificate in the context of his time & the fruits since.
I’m not sure if the Pachamama incident was really as bad as it looked Michael Loftin from Reason and Theology did a really good video breaking it down to show it was not idol worship.
I am a protestant and know this man is a genius who spoke the truth to all men, to all the ages of time. This should of been titled, "A word to the Christian World of Late Modernity."
Nuanced and interesting, like always. Thank you Father
Thank you for addressing this topic. Sometimes John Paul II's title of "Saint" totally absolves him and his legacy from all criticism.
@@tomthx5804 when you allow a Buddha statue on the tabernacle you aren’t Catholic.
@@sleepystar1638 To have been lazy enough to not ensure that something like that didn’t happen speaks volumes to JP2s character
@@BuryMeInBabylon lol read his letter thanking everyone and then doing it again years later(less Buddha on top of the tabernacle though)
@@sleepystar1638 This is something I dont really understand. You are worried about having the right theology, but you dont mind trashing a Saint and a Pope?
@@juanjosefortin3828 if you saw him do it with your own eyes what would you do? Now google image search Buddha on Tabernacle. They have pictures of the guys taking close up pictures. Pictures of people taking pictures of the Buddha on top of the Tabernacle. Then he never said a word about it. Shame, Everlasting Shame. Religious indifference with not Catholic.
They quickly canonized all the V2 popes after their death but traditionalist popes like Leo XIII, Pius XII didn't get canonized very revealing of who is in charge of Vatican right now.
Leo XIII had a complicated legacy as well. He engaged with a bit of liberal praxology with resourcement in France, even going so far as calling French catholics bad if they didn't rally around the French republic. Granted he did realize this mistake before he died.
Thank you for this. I've been kinda conflicted about a lot of this.
I love jp2. Even got baptised on his feast day.
But a lot of the stuff that's been coming out has been making me really uncomfortable.
Especially as a child of a parent who was a rape victim. Like I've seen and had to live through the absolute hurricane of trauma that causes and to know jp2 may of been involved in a cover up. It makes my heart hurt.
And I feel awful for the families connected. And I don't want them to feel like I am dissmising their pain by trying to defend Jp2
The most recent documents were from a communist smear campaign.
@@davidcatabui2018 and I understand that which is why addressing this is heartbreaking. I'm polish myself. I know the genocide and abuse my ancestors went through. I'm very grateful they fought to come here to the USA. I love PJ2 because of how much he helped rush in a new era of peace. It's just those families matter too and I don't want them to think they have no voice or that other survivors don't either. This needs to be handled delicately. And I don't know how exactly to do that.
@@davidcatabui2018 whoops I meant jp2. Sorry dyslexic 🤣
Very well said! Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Father
Wonderful, thank you. I'm in!
I may be wrong but the prime directive the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests and the religious is to be custodians of Sacred Tradition and lead souls to heaven. Please explain how that’s going.
You know how it’s going
Right before going to heaven Jesus said go into all the world and preach the gospel not to criticize out popes.
@@sambrickell8763 I seem to remember Paul rebuking, correcting Peter for favoring Jews over Gentiles, Galatians 2:11-21. God bless you. Let’s all pray for the speedy recovery of Pope Francis from his illness.
I appreciate trying to address these issues but was more confused about the points about modernism, St. John Paul and how to address them, than before.
Thank you for your well balanced explanation.
this was super helpful. Thank you!
We should mention Saint Faustina and Divine Mercy Sunday if we’re going to discuss JPII 👍
I wish the Church would slow down the canonizations of people recently deceased and stick to Saints whose legacies are firmly established, though. It’s uncomfortable to see a person venerated start to come under attack from the potential skeletons in the closet. Why this obsession with “now”? Doesn’t seem healthy as much as emotional.
But what do I know. Seriously, I’m just sharing my thoughts. Open to other perspectives.
I don't think u do the gravitas of the man justice. I watched the generalissimo of Poland tremble in his presence. You have to go back to the ancients to find anything remotely similar.
@frGP-OP Any takes on Michael Lofton's interview with Fr. Dragani?
Maybe I have misunderstood that part but accusing JP2 of cryptomarxism is preposterous. He is remembered in Poland as a staunch critic of this ideology actively facilitating the end of communism in Poland.
You misunderstood, he was talking about some philosopher or theologian he recently read about.
@@mrcomment5544 OK then. I must have falsely interpreted what he said as if JP2 somehow supported this particular theologian. My mistake. One can accuse JP2 of many things, but support of marxism and all its variants was not one of them. Here, the saint's legacy really defends itself.
Most ordinary Catholics in the pews are completely unaware of these controversies. I think they will pass long before JPII's legacy.
Thanks!
Thank you
It’s very possible it’s different leadership styles at play here. Francis is being noted as being a bottom up leader who gathers opinions from bishops, priests and laity to ponder with his values.
Benedict and JP2 seemed to be top down leaders who had a vision and pushed it down the line for compliance.
I am drawn to two biblical references
1 Corinthians 9:20-23 (RSVCE): 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law-though not being myself under the law-that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law-not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ-that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
What the pope does to achieve the ultimate aim to gather people to the church … I don’t know his heart or his vision but Jesus does. As for mistakes … even Aaron made error during his priesthood, yet served he did.
Excellent insight. Thank you and God bless you.
Eh. This is probably a great example of why priests should really keep their opinions to themselves. If you’re Polish, Catholic or not, you’ll understand the challenge that JPII faced growing up in Socialist Poland. When the west (looking at you US, inclusive of its Catholic clergy) left Poland for dead, JPII rallied to help the country crush Communism. His methods may have been controversial, he may not have been perfect but when people of this age think of the Catholic Church, they think of JP2 because he put himself out there, warts and all. He was there making the mistakes rather than shut up in the Vatican.
Dragging a clergy man through the mud retrospectively is not new. We did the same with Benedict when he was elected, we could help bringing up his Nazi Youth past over and over again, despite it being irrelevant. Same here, perhaps its more fruitful spending time evangelising rather than sinking down into throwing about personal criticism. It’s unbecoming to see clergy doing it to each other, and it’s worse when lay people feed into it.
JPII's brave opposition to communism is the most convincing reason why he was a saint. Most of his papacy was one step forwards, three steps backwards.
7:52
"The modern world has no rapport with the past, because she hates it; she has no rapport with the present, because she manipulates it; and she has no rapport with the future, because she doesn't care, provided that everything burns."
The whole point of living in the modern world is to bring Christ to the modern world. We are to live our faith, wherever we are, by our conversations, our witness, by being Christian. We are not called to separate ourselves from the modern world but to conquer it to be Christian. If we have failed, it is because we have failed to pray, failed to live, failed to love, failed to forgive. John Paul II called us to do that. Young people today want to inherit a wonderful world and blame John Paul II and Vatican II for not leaving that. But the world has never been wonderful and the future can only be better if we are better every day. We must follow Jesus, and John Paul II did just that. He called us all to personal holiness and that's what changes the world.
Excellent video Fr Pine. You dumbed it down enough for me to understand what you were saying! I'd love to learn Thomism but the academic vocabulary used by Dominicans makes Bishop Barron’s vocabulary sound like an undergraduate professor.
Not send a hate comment, but there are serious questions on many things, but looking at prayer meeting if Assisi is a major problem. No, I am not Novous ordo or Catholic, I have left and went to the eastern Orthodox church.
How about JPII spreading the ecumenism heresy as demonstrated through Assissi. A Saint? Hardly!!
Insightful remarks. God bless.
you make me wonder about the previous times where we look back and we see the heresies of the world and we see the synthesis of those interactions with the Church, but I wonder if we shouldn't also look at the positions prior to those "revelations" that help us see how the Church has grown through those times and gone deeper into divine revelation because it was challenged in one area or another? What are those areas where we are currently being challenged and where are we being called to go deeper into revelation to help us make sense of whats going on around us. Not sure if that makes sense. God Bless the Church Militant and all who are called to lead it.
Wow awesome! Could you please debate one of the Dimond brothers on Sedevacantism?
I think you miss two important aspects of St John Paul II. His holiness and the Cross. I think his love of the Blessed Mother is related to that, but maybe it should be a third central importance.
The gift of the Illuminative Mysteries and his grandfatherly exhortation on the same, and his Encyclical build from this.
I frankly don't understand the springtime he hoped for. But I dare not ignore the prophetic vision that he gave us.
Now, the mess with the world, the flesh and the devil, and dealing with the collapse of academia, of course I expect profound analysis from a Dominican, but with the focus on preaching and somehow mendicant. You know on missions how broken and hurting the world is. You study St Dominic, St Catherine of Sienna, and in a brotherly way St Francis.
I worry that academics lose the spirit of prayer and devotion, as St Francis warned St Anthony. Your community knows this as the community nourishes and protects, though that is a Franciscan touch it is true.
So what I would like to hear about is the development of doctrine at Vatican II, and how JPII guided what was true and corrected abuse and error. And if Benedict re-emphasized or further clarified, as a theologian how that gift of Magisterial guidance directs Dominicans today.
I only had two Dominican teachers, Fr Giles Dimock and Fr Mullady. F4 Giles would probably have a bit to say on the troubling implementation of Vatican II but also the guidance of the Holy Spirit in that time
But that's not the discussion that's being had. It's his legacy as an administrator of the Church which leaves much to be desired. His appointments, his ecumenical missteps, his liturgical chops can solidly be pointed at as weaknesses.
@The Good Doctor So breaking down his responsibilities as pastor, but you did go over TOB. Administrative is important, but really isn't that the responsibility of those serving in those area's?
Not saying it isn't important. But to look at a parish. A choir director and cantor are responsibile for singing, chant. The Deacon is responsibie for that as well. And then the priest.
So what kind of problems are really the priests?
The choir members have their level, then on up.
So what things should he be criticized for?
He can't be judged if Sally or Joe fall into sin. But he may be judged if he is not pastoring them. If the choir director is alienating Hispanics, he can address that. Work on that. The Liturgy is sloppy. That is for the Deacon and priest to address reverence and perhaps more training.
But if no one is attending because of the cultural collapse, what then? He is responsible for Evangelical actions.
To look at the items you mentioned, what could he done as a bishop, to serve to help the parish? He is at one level higher.
I just want to be sure that we have the right expectations of criticism. In a Biblical comparison, there was a failure to provide for the Greeks, so the Apostles chose deacons to serve. And of course we know they labored alongside them, but still what could be done.
Sloppy Liturgy. I know he exhorted people on that. But what more are you suggesting could he have done?
@@tireddad6541 the problems facing the Church since v2 isn't evangelization but lack of supernatural faith among the clergy and the laity. JP2 was praised for his outward focus but he let the Vatican run amok, appointed very bad people to high office even after their accusations and while he curbed some abuse did nothing to actually repair the damage done to the liturgy. All these things are within the Pope's purview and not random environmental effects of the larger culture. For all his orthodox theology he was very bad at making sure the Church taught orthodoxy. For all his work on brining people into the Church he fail to provide a solid foundation and structure to house them. In his efforts to repair relations and work with outside groups on temporal matters he sacrificed the Church's confidence in it's position as the one True church of Christ and that all others were misguided pretenders at best or actively demonic at worse. He hoped for a springtime when he should have been shoring up the Church for winter.
@@tireddad6541 Honestly, I used to believe in Pope John Paul II. Just a few weeks ago my husband and I learned about all of the heresies he had throughout his pontificate. It's been a huge eye opener and shock for us and now the timing of finding out about him not appropriately handling the abuse cases seems providential. I would read these list of heresies and idolatrous actions he did while pope:
vaticancatholic.com/16_JohnPaulII.pdf
vaticancatholic.com/45_antichristcode.pdf
Reason and Theology Michael Lofton would disagree about this “Pachamama” scandal crying out to heaven. Your implying it was in fact idolatry
Pachamama is an idol, that’s a fact. Whether or not they wanted to use it as “Our Lady of the Amazon” is irrelevant. It is all around a horrible thing.
@@fooberdooge3103 the claim is that it was not a pachamama idol. If you watch the Michael Lofton video he actually has a reasonable case to make on this front.
@@fooberdooge3103 Since Pachamama does not exist, and has no real representation on the world, The piece of wood its not inherently anything more than what we want it to represent. If the people who made or where using wood figure did it with no intention of representing Pachamama, well then its not really Pachamama.
@@marymcphersonwilkins2897 I've watched the video. I don't think he makes a convincing argument. Then again, Lofton has become a full blown popesplainer. Everyone's bending over backwards to defend this issue, but it's simply inexcusable. An idol is an idol, regardless of what they intended to do with it. It would be like me taking an idol of Odin and saying it's God the Father. It's ridiculous. It's syncretism at its finest.
@@juanjosefortin3828 Sorry, but you're simply wrong. Pachamama is a fertility goddess that was worshipped by the Quechua and Incan peoples, and at the Amazon synod, they tried to use that as "Our Lady of the Amazon". It would be like me taking a statue of Hercules and presenting it as Jesus. It's nonsense.
You got it down, thank you
Word.
Father whose autobiography were you referencing about Stalin & the priest workers? Thank you for your considered views 🙏🏼
Marie Dominique Chenu.
Is there a holy angel powers angel available for listening to this. Dear Jesus and the Powers Holy Angels, pray.
I know I'm a few months late with this, but I just watched the podcast this morning. Ok, so I'm 77 years old and was more or less out of the Church during the 1970's. So I guess my perspective on JPII is very different from the much younger people to whom you seem to be addressing your remarks. And I realize that in order to make the moderating point you wish to make to your younger audience, you have to give the appearance of being adequately hesitant about JPII's legacy. So you emphasize that he made incorrect judgments about two very evil men, that he may have made some less than stellar episcopal appointments, and that his difficult writings do not seem to have the lasting effect that one might have expected them to have. (How one measures this sort of thing, you do not reveal.) I get where you're coming from and I understand that you begin this way in order to gain some sympathy from the present generation that for some reason doesn't understand how great this saintly pope was. But in using this strategy I am afraid that you are doing a disservice to your admittedly undeserving audience. Can I use a basketball analogy from the same time frame. Pope John Paul II, along with his collaborator and successor Josef Ratzinger, were to the Church of the 1980's and 1990's what Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were to the NBA of the same period. You can't understand the difference between before and after just by looking at the statistics. The change was a palpable change of culture and even, if I may put it this way, of spirit. All of a sudden, young people were being inspired by this incredibly brilliant and holy man. When I returned to the Church in the late 1970's the situation in the Church was -- wait for it -- much, much, much worse than it is today. Seminaries were practically empty, including Dominican Houses of Studies in places like Washington; the faith had been watered down to the point of insipidness by my generation and the one just before us, catechism class had been replaced by banner-making, and anyone who had the slightest inclination toward doctrinal orthodoxy was being treat like Jeremiah himself. There was as yet no Scott Hahn or John Bergsma or Brant Pitre, etc., or, even more significantly, no Catechism of the Catholic Church. Steubenville was barely a twinkle in Fr. Scanlan's eye. I could go on, but you get the picture. God had raised up a great saint (actually, two of them) at just the right time. We're talking St. Paul, St. John Chrysostom, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Gregory the Great, St. Dominic, St. Francis, St. Ignatius, St. Charles Borromeo, etc. In short, I think you have a duty to follow up this 'moderate' podcast with an all-out articulation and celebration of what God was able to accomplish in and through Wojtyla and Ratzinger. (Thanks for all you do, by the way. 🙂)
Young people in African villages are learning about theology of the body and reading his encyclicals ......what more could people want !
How much did the Catholic Church grow under PJPII?
8:54 who are you describing? I don't believe a Polish person who lived through both Nazi and Soviet occupation would have anything nice to say about Stalin.
Could you, at some time, soeak about the canonisation process? I always felt tha JPii was canonised too quickly largely because of the way child abuse and pedarasty was handled during his pontificate. I read that Pius xii's canonisation was delayed because of his wwii record in order not to offend the jews. No thought like this was given to those who were the victims of clerical abuse during his pontificate.
He was clearly canonized too fast before they could sort through everything. It's proof that the changes made to the canonization process is flawed. He proved this by his opening statement.
John Paul is the only Pope I remember as Benedict seemed to come and go quietly. I remember the Solidarity movement and John Paul never seemed to forget his homeland but I wasn't sure whether Benedict was as concerned with his Germany? Francis seems to be very Argentinian in how he communicates and also how he sees day to day life for ordinary Catholics. For example, it seems that many couple live together rather than marry in Argentina.
Nice commentary. Going too much in each direction is going to make us fall. Reason needs to prevail alongside faith. Fides et ratio!
Ah. So he died 18 years ago and he's a fully cannonised saint.
Must have been proper Holy.
Exactly. We shouldn’t be able to say the “ complicated legacy” it should be the “glorious legacy”
@@BuryMeInBabylon Plenty of saints have a complicated legacy. St Cyril of Alexandria terrorized an entire city with an army of monks for months.
Good talk thanks
Your success will evaporate and your failures will live on. That's how many see JPII particularly those who don't have the emotional attachment to him that many older generations do when he was a universally beloved celebrity Pope. What's worse to hear the naivete from previous generations be repeated as "just so" wisdom like it wasn't proven false one hundred times is frustrating.
Same with V2. It's failures are many of self evident and we have a wealth of evidence to draw upon to say how it's proposals were not what the world needed. That the council fathers read the signs of the times wrong and as we continue to distance ourselves from it the increasing attempts to "reclaim it" seem silly and tone deaf.
"the council fathers read the signs of the times wrong"?
@@maciejpieczula631 yes, they believed they we're entering a new phase of dialogue and understanding with the world. There was an optimistism about resetting relations with the world and that we could affirm aspects of modernity. This was right before the world because it's most hostile and subversive. We opened ourselves to the world right at the moment we needed to be our most vigilant and the results were the complete collapse of, well, everything.
@@Deathbytroll are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit was inoperative at the Sencond Ecumenical Vatican Council?
@@maciejpieczula631 The Holy Spirit doesn't grant the council fathers oracular abilities. It doesn't provide a perfect roadmap every council for the problems of the world. It protects against doctrinal error. What's curious is that you seem to ascribe a level of involvement by the Holy Spirit in Vatican 2 that isn't ascribe to any other of the 21 ecumenical councils of the Church
And what level is that? You are correct. The Church needed to be most vigilant, and needs to continue to be vigilant. But it also needed, and still needs, new ways to evangelize. The Council of Trent closed in 1563. 226 years later, 1789, the French Revolution starts. A complete overthrow of a Catholic society. That reality was spreading across the whole western world in terms of all religions, whether Catholic or other; maybe not in a sudden revolutionary way like in France but that is the truth. Every Ecumenical Council, as far as I know, is pretty much a response to a heresy or a crisis pertaining to the Church. The crisis facing the Church at the time was, and is, a lack of ability to communicate the message of salvation to the modern world. What you said sounds like you think the whole council was an error and made errors.
And many things collapsed after the council, but not everything. However things were on a decline for quiet some time already. Church attendance started dropping substantially after world war 2, and simply continued after V2.
This ultra-conservative TLM movement seems to come about around 2015, after Trump announced he was running for president, the publication of Amoris Letitia and the explosion of the woke culture. It appeals to many because it feels like a protest against modernist BS, and fair enough. But before that, where was this movement?
And somethings that did not collapse after the council are the growth of the Catholic Church in southeast Asia, and the Catholic Churches growth in Sub-Saharan Africa. Actually, in Africa the Church is BOOMING! And except for a few churches they are not celebrating the TLM in those areas. So, although one could point to a great many failures after V2, one can just as easily point to it's successes.
BTW, some of your sentences don't make a lot of sense.
P.S.
PERFECTAE CARITATIS 2
JP2 tried to bring the world together and a lot of the criticism of him come from him trying his hardest to do that.
The church is about the salvation of souls. God knows what he is about. If he’s allowing this, that rad trads get mad about, they need to realize in the end, God is allowing it because it is the best for human souls. God’s ways are not our ways. Latin and altar rails are not our salvation. The love of and belief in Christ is. Trust in Him.
To paraphrase Matthew 7: 5 "You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye." In this case: "You hypocrite remove Osiris' phallus which you call righteous from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove Our Lady of the Amazon who you call Pachamama and a sin from your brother's eye."
A good reflection Father. The optimism towards secular-democracy of the post-Council days are gone. Christian Democracy is a failure, Human Dignity is irrelevant simply because the idea of Human itself is being questioned (the trans movement etc). Its time to move on
He had affair in the 70s, demonic prayer meeting at Assisi, said John the Baptist would bless Islam, didn’t address scandals directly & approved Faustina’s demonic divine mercy “Jesus” (Mt 24:24)
Who is the theologian who spoke of Stalin's funeral in warm terms and believed in the priest-worker movement? Chenoux? Chenu?
Father Pine is a wise young man obviously inspired by the Holy Spirit. His heart is traditional and grounded on scripture. Inclusion of sinners without repentance and correction is never right. Evangelization means bringing the world to conform with the Church for its Salvation . Not vice versa . Denial of the truth is not evangelizing
Modern secular humanism developed from Protestantism. So it is part of Christianity, not a negation of it. This seems paradoxical since it is an atheistic ideology, but it actually make sense. All human rights can be derived back to Christian teaching. This is more and more evident even to secular humanists, since they see how other cultures like Muslim world, are easily rejecting their humanist principles which they regard as self-evident, but they are absolutely not. They come from the teaching of Christ and the Church. So someone like Richard Dawkins recently went viral by saying he's a Cultural Christian.
So humanists and christians should talk and they'll see they have a lot in common. They are like father and son, not enemies. They need to help each other, or all the Christain and humanist world will collapse by either being destroyed by themselves or by some other hostile cultures.
It was always in my Catholic formation to be respectful to the Pope. Unfortunately, people from the so call first world countries, seems reluctant to accept the choice of the Holy Spirit present during the conclave. As they do not agreed with Pope Francis, they do not respect him as the successor of Peter. People that want the fall of Catholicism are, unfortunately, within our own priests, bishops, cardinals and catholic extremists.
Its Americans and their influence. We all think we are God's gift to the planet, that if only I had power, if only I ran the church as I saw fit, it would be so much better. But we all suck. In the modern west, we all think we are so educated, so much smarter than everyone else. But we are all illiterate in almost any field. We lack any humility. And we will pay for it in the end.
I have to say every single word said here was unexpected.
this is well done and his points well taken. Reasons church has the long view and process for sanctification are mentioned by this priest. The Church should have resisted the calls for immediate sainthood. I thought it then and more so now. To a great extent Popes are and have to be at the mercy of their closest advisors. I am under the impression Cdl. O'Connor confronted JPII about McCarrick but unfortunately he got contrary advice from others he decided to follow. Benedict took care of this to some extent but it is also said he told Bishop Fellay his authority stopped at his office door.
Canonization is definitive, and its not subject to error. He is a Saint, he is with God. Being a Saint doesnt mean he would be humanly perfect, impecable in any sense. We like to think we have done otherwise, but the reality is we would have probably lot worse in any sense.
@@juanjosefortin3828 i agree with much of what you say but I do not necessarily believe canonization is not subject to error. I especially agree with your statement that it does not mean someone has to be humanly perfect. Lets face it i cannot identify one person who I think qualified to make such a judgement in any case. I don't have an opinion of the question of his sainthood although I find some deep consolation in believing him so. The Church does not in my view retain the authority to define anything as not being subject to error. If you do not mind could you take the time to respond and explain where your statement is derived from. thanks !
@@davidcatabui2018 not to this extent. We all go to heaven or hell alone. It is one thing to refer to teachings quite another to defer. The practice of an institution declaring the infallibility of their pronouncements not to be questioned is not something any rational decent person should accept. I am a cradle catholic of 73 yrs and frankly think this clericalism in its worst form. Church is in tatters and the garbage of fallible men conditioning people to passivity is a major reason for this. “Sheep” ? I am no one’s sheep except Christ. I merely asked where it is written that a canonization cannot be in error ? Who said so and on what authority is such a claim based ? If you know I will consider my agreement. Thanks
Would you be willing to discuss/debate someone on these topics? You speak very quickly and with a lot of certainty.
Thank you father.
Dozens of millions of people around the world no longer consider themselves Catholic as a result of the failures of the JPII pontificate. It's profitable to find the good that he did, but overall, the Church is worse off than when he picked it up. I can never consider JPII a saint because the scale of his failures is so enormous. I know there's been a wave of Bavarians and Americans calling for the canonisation of Benedict XVI, but I can't support that effort either. Benedict was my countryman and an inspiration, but it's simply not appropriate for him, or JPII, or Paul VI or John XXIII to be called saints. Is sainthood so trivial that any Pope can become one?
Very well said!
John Paul II was truly a great man and a saint, but the Church has run into problems, no one (in a leadership position) obeyed the Holy Mother's request at Fatima for certain things to be done around 1961. The train of blessing has crashed and we need to get back on track. We need to pray for forgiveness and for a new opportunity to restore what was lost, otherwise we will continue to eat the fruits of disobedience and desolation.
Yeah no
Ok…honest question and I feel silly asking…is the old rite the Latin Mass? Can any one explain this to me?
Yes it is
@@Jsc20 thank you
Nothing silly about it. It's an EXCELLENT question.
I’m way out of the loop. Where can I go to get some context about what he’s talking about?
Here's plenty of context:
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Shocking, but true.
We need people like you to become Cardinal and hopefully Pope.
Father Altman!! Make him a cardinal . And pope! Bam!