I thought the Van video was good but this was fascinating. SO well put together... Really interesting to look at the two methods and surprising to see the iPhone 15 not being worth using compared to the iPhone 11.
So cool you came back to watch another! Thanks 👍 Yeah we were surprised too! We actually ended up keeping the phone as we missed the return date! It’s being used as a camera now and again. It’s pretty good for that, mind you we’ve never used it to scan since.
Nice. Love watching sailing uma . Following Duracell as well, odd sailing and sail life but now you. Filling the hole left by tally Ho finishing their build. Much love too you guys.
She’s got character that’s for sure!! Stoked you’ve found something new to keep your eye on. If you missed our last video it goes into a bit more detail on our project 🤟🏼 Thanks for your comment, buzzing.
Not a bad idea mate. Lazy way weve done it, get a box cover the bulb and fill with expansion foam. Then cut in half and have a full mould. Just remember to cover in cling wrap or release agent. This has proven to work well in our yard for moulds that are straight copies from sister ships.
For sure, that would have been ace. Bug with 1 hour in the slings I wasn’t confident enough to use up my only chance with foam due to the hardening time.
Two videos into this build and I am looking forward to seeing what a pro wooden boat builder can do with an aluminum hull. Great find - I'm usually not a fan of aluminum boats but this one looks to have great lines both in the hull and the cabin top. The lifting keel looks pretty cool too - more maintenance but more fast. With Tally Ho going in the water, now I know where I can get my quality boat building video fix. Thanks for sharing!!!
Cheers Tom! Hope you don’t mind a bit of van action too, we’ve gotta sort that so we have somewhere to live in Switzerland! Super stoked to be getting started on the boat mind!!
I've used scanners a number of times, putting some calibrated CLEAR blocks on the item being scanned , then you have calibrated surfaces for use when you get into CAD. Good Luck
Nice tips! Thanks for that. So we’re getting on with it now, makers manual have been legendary and I think we have a shape!! Stoked!! Thanks again for the tips!! 👍🏼
Tremendous video, love the locations great explanations enjoyed. Lofting there’s a tough one to explain seen it used a couple of times on TH-cam still seems a bit dark arts. Really glad I subscribed.
Hi, thanks for the compliments! Just what we need to keep our spirits up! Great your enjoyed the video and super cool that you have joined us on our journey too!! Hopefully we can sort some of these dark arts out!! 🤙😀
Very cool looking boat, should be a rocketship! Intrigued by your phone scanning. We have an old Westerly twin keeler here in NZ and have modified it significantly over the years including lengthening the hull at both ends -got a bit carried away!. The keels are really slowing it down and I've been debating modernising them. A good starting point would be to take lines off the hulls and keels so scanning the keels would be a nice way to do them. I created a 3D model of the deck before building a solid dodger so would be nice to add the hull to that. Anyway look forward to seeing your project progress, thanks for sharing it :)
Woah! That’s an insane amount of work! I would love to see it! Could be cool to make new keels, I presume a shorter chord with less frontal area would be the ticket. Add some lead bulbs to minimise the size of the bulbs, would you go a little deeper too to allow less ballast with the same RM? Talking about RM, would you tie the keels in? Possibly increase Venturi? Ooooh the questions! Great to have someone who clearly thinks out of the box in our journey, hope to hear some of your ideas for us and also see what your up too - super interesting! -Chris
@@SailHub Current thinking is lead bulbs on timber/GRP fins and that with an extra 250-300mm draft (1450-1500) righting moment should be similar (probably a little less at low heel angles and more as heel increases) but should save around 4-500kg displacement (currently around 5000kg with ~1000kg in each keel). We have a very good Naval Architect in town so my rationale was to get him to consult on (a) feasibility and if OK, (b) provide design detail. Current Laurent Giles keels are slightly toed in, very thick chord and also low aspect but aside from the immediate drag penalty, I believe with the extended hull we're getting adverse hull/keel interference. However her achillies heel is roll induced heel which makes it unpleasant to steer when she rolls downwind, so if we can improve that it would be a worthwhile exercise. The performance gains are a no-brainer, could potentially reduce wetted surface by nearly 10%, and if done well form drag should decrease markedly as well. A little hard to financially justify as it's a ~STG20K boat and probably will continue to be. If it improved the handling though it would really help the coastal runs which are ~200nm in either direction to the next major ports, heading off with a tail wind is the way to get there. When I was boatbuilding I worked with a Aussie guy who designed and built his own yacht and had sailed it around the world. Amazing light and fast boat but he had a 2 tonne lead bulb with lifting keel. He was amazingly innovative, particularly in ways to save money and used a 4WD winch to both lift the keel and also to lift the anchor. The keel had 3m draft down and the anchor chain was stowed at the base of the keel to keep weight out of the bow. Bow waterlines were quite hollow and the 28hp Kubota could motor them upwind at 6 knots in 25 knots of wind. Not bad on a 44 footer! The lifting keel is wonderful to provide sailing efficiency and good offshore stability without limiting anchoring options. He also used to go into shallow water and dump the keel onto the bottom, then alternately lean the boat to each side to scrub the bottom.
as soon as you said the corry vecin i knew where you were lol fowen a spiniker through there done a 360 in a whirlpool whie keeping it fying!! the place is mental nice boat aswell
Yeah! New we’re talking! It’s an epic ride that’s for sure, we miss sailing that place soo much! Thanks for the compliments on the boat, keep an eye out for us next year, we hope to be in the UK again!!
Awesome! The algo pointed me towards your vid. Years back I did a steelie down on the south coast; you guys are making awesome progress. I think I missed it in the vid - what’s the Lidar app called please?
Hey, cheers for that! Would love to see the boat that you built!! Progress is slow to be honest as the camper needs to happen first but it’s great to be finally making it all happen! The app we used is Polycam. There are a ton out there for you to try, we went for this one just because of the reviews.
LiDAR is good because you get actual size models and is invaluable for that reason. There's also the ability to add different models and merge them to make one that is more accurate - I'm not saying it's the best option, just find that if you don't have the tape measure or don't have the time to go over every single detail the LiDAR + photogrammetry combo is unbeatable. Basically make sure you have the same sizes between them :) I love Polycam, early adopter from 2020. It'd be great if there was a free Rhino alternative for the right kind of geometry but we can't win everything!
Yeah, your right! We can’t win everything!! We found the scanning really interesting and the results even more so. At present we are crunching the numbers and deciding on what’s the best option but we now have options which is a step ahead for sure!!
You did well to get the Lidar/Photogrametry and lofting done in the restricted time. It's amazing that KM yachts don't have full boat drawings, build specifications, rig details, completion certificates, etc, are not filed at least one registration authority. How do boats prove they comply with the various standards. I guess pre 1980 boats may not have had much information. Next, I'm curious about how you are going to gather up several tonnes of lead for the casting. With market prices for lead at £1,650 per tonne, that could be an expensive project. I recollect 'Acorn to Arabella' seeking scrap lead from all over. Considering the permanent horrible dangers of ingesting lead, I hope you don't go the self casting route, at least in not such a rudimentary way. Before you cast the lead, are you going to check the stability calculations and check what water ballast works. Having breiefly sailed an IMOCA 60 with water ballast, it was like having super chargers with 3 tonnes scooped up into the tanks.
Oh man, KM we’re bleeding useless! I’ve spoken to a number of KM owners, they all seems to state the same things… great boats, exceptionally well Built and terrible after sales service. So they had nothing in the boat, I got more info from the cnc cutting company : Gaastmeer. The rig details I managed to find from Seldén who did a sister ship but there are only two other sister ships out there and one of those was the prototype boat with a custom mast. Anyhow, they have all the righting moment calculations etc so that has been very handy. I also have all of the paper drawings for the ballast and keel etc so we know how much we need we just we’re not perfected on the shape. (It was only a 2D drawing from one angle. Lead, ohhh man. It’s expensive and heavy! It’s been a while since I worked with lead but I am confident we can sort it. As basic as it may seem to melt it down ourselves it’s the same thing in industry. I am happy with this and all of the dangers. Ppe, risk assessment and safety are the key, and as a boatbuilder I am confident I can protect our workforce which is the most import thing here, the keel comes second. As for sourcing it, well… we’ve not managed that yet. Still searching! But the van build is taking up so much time that the search is slow 😆
Oh yeah, the ballast! That’s something we’re not sure what to do with yet! We’re definitely keeping it! There is 900l on either side. No scoops, yet… but it’s about speed as to wether they will work, which of course we don’t know yet. I think we will manually pump water around from a tank inside to see what happens first and see what pressure we can generate before we go popping scoops in the boat. Although, that is of course what I want to do!
Cool, thanks for that! As I said in the video, I’m rubbish with computers.. so we’ve got a tech wizz working on it with us, I will mention your process to him. Thanks!!!!! 👌👍
adding to my comment about placidity city, the other advantage of using plasticity is it can produce “watertight “models, which are necessary for 3-D printing. The idea of being that you could 3-D print a positive version of the keel and bulb, and then use that as thebasis to build a negative mold. That could either be for layup, or I suppose you could cast directly into it if you made it out of plaster or something similar. Perhaps even sand.
Hey Daniel, you know your onto it there fella! If I have the skills or money that’s what I would be doing. But I don’t 😂 so we’ve got to make do with what we have but yeah t your plan would be better 👍😀
@@SailHub Well, I'd be happy to see what I could do with your scanned model, since I have the full version of Plasticity. I'm using it for a boat project, so I wouldn't mind seeing what I might learn.... in case you wanna talk about it, lmk. That's with regard to the computer stuff: the fabrication is another thing, but having cleaner data is never a bad thing.
@danieldonaldson8634 Hi Daniel, that’s super kind of you! We actually have all of the CAD work finished at present, if we had known a month ago you would have the job!! If the data is of use to you for your own experiments I can send it through for you still but there’s no need to do anything for us (this time 😂!) Thanks so much for offering though, that is super genuine of you!! Cheers!! 👍👍
I stopped commenting earlier in the video and waited until I watched it all. Pleased that you took some ‘handraulic’ measurements - tech is good but being able to cross reference the virtual with real data provides assurance - and confidence you are heading down the right road. Great project btw.😀👍⛵️
Hi Norman, nice to hear from you! Yeah, I’m really tech averse a lot of the time so so was definitely going to be taking some manual measurements! For all the reasons you suggested, mind you it was interesting crunching the numbers and the scans, we will put something up about it when we’re through the next step. Thanks for taking the time to comment too, super nice of you, cheers Chris 👍
You know what the best part is of a displacement keel is you can figure out the best hydro for it by tank testing so lead takes up space for the amount of weight also means how much space it must take in our world this is called mass so yeah sure take some ideas from their keel water test their keel and refine it and play with making it your own for better hydro anything is possible their design might have drag in certain places can make better or you duplicate it and make things easy I build and rebuild boats for a living my keel on my racing sailboat is a full keel weight is 4 and a 1/2 tons of iron full boat displacement is 18,000 lbs usually for a builder and designer 50/50 between keel and construction weight with mast and rig so add it up
Hey Graham, thanks for the input, we’re looking into bulb shapes and also the reality of the beaver tail actually creating any lift. But, we’re running out of time and money too so we will see what we get. I wasn’t planning on tank testing as I know it is. Pretty successful design and I’m not sure the costs of tank testing will be warranted. I would certainly love to do it though! As for weights, we’re looking at 2t, existing hull and mast weigh around 3.5T I’m told however that is just what I’ve been told. As we’re on a farm it’s not so easy to get her weighed although there is always a method, just not sure if I need to make a cradle. Anyhow, plenty to think about! I may push for some prices for some tank testing… 👍 Cheers!
Hey Will, yeah it really surprised me! I can’t wait to see the keel either… we’re on with the cad just now! The van build is coming on too, which is handy as we need it to live in when we start the keel moulds!
Have you tried to talk with km? Usualy they keep their designs at least as a reference. For Standard parts as the bulb in a komplex Lifting mechanik i can Imagine they dont change it much at all. Of cause they scale it though. I would try to get in touch with them anyway because they will certainly have the weight calculations and everything you might need aswell. And i guess they dont want to see a couple on TH-cam doing it wrong and end up with a "km" hull with poor Performance. Interessiert approach though. It will probably work just fine!!
Hey up Henri! Yeah, we know the guys at KM, we’ve met a few times in person and spoken a lot too. Really nice people. We have all the drawings and everything they had for the design from them and also everything form the cutting company they use too - Gaastmeer. Sadly they don’t cast their own lead and the company they use no longer have the drawings. So that’s where we are, but it was good of them to help us with what they could. As for them worrying about a couple on TH-cam, I don’t think they are bothered at all, we all know the quality of their build and I’m sure they will be more than happy with the quality of ours too, however I don’t think they would care either way to be honest.
you had an hour or so, you couldve mixed up polyester resin with extra mkep and had a solid mold of the thing in 20 mins, just wrap whole thing in foil and start slapping fiberglass over it and wet it out, it harden in literally ten mins solid with heavy mkep....grinder cut it in half and you have perfect mold
how do you scale the object with photogrammetry? do you have to measure the length by hand them used blender to set it to the correct scale of is the 1:1sale already determined by the app?
Hey! Thanks for getting in touch! That’s super kind of you to offer to help too!! I think we’ve got it tied up at moment… but let’s see… it’s never done until it’s done!!! We may well come calling for help!
Hi, I’m afraid the iPhones have a specific LiDAR Scanner - it’s the small circle next to the camera lenses on the 15 pro. It specifically measures light alone so I’m sorry it’s iPhone only at present. But… photogrammetry will still work for you, and it’s more accurate in our experience too 🥲
Oh they will… but up until now only if they complete the full works. So far the only quotes that came back were for the wrong boat and £16k! Then there was the quote for the correct keel (if I could get the drawings). That came in at 45k! Sadly that’s out of our budget.
For sure, we did loads of scans and found that to be the case too. It didn’t cope well with the water that ran down the keel now and then and it didn’t cope well underneath which I presume will be due to lack of light, despite the light ‘bounce’ we used. It’s a super fast tool which is in general fab, but the photogrammetry was leagues ahead for us.
@deltacx1059 we are still faffing with it but in general the photogrammetry was within a couple of mm in diameter and I think it was close to 5mm in length. For reference it’s length is 2.34M
Hey, yeah… it all seems like that but then… Months of trying to contact and no reply, we just had to give up. It’s a shame, they have such a great reputation for designing good boats too.
@cnc75adventures49 for sure and they are still drawing and building more! Just not interested in the old by I guess. As for us, yeah… we’re getting on, “handled it”? Not yet, I dare not say that until it’s done! 😆
@SailHub Maybe dropping line to the expert, Doug Brower, who helped with the mold (especially the crimping margins) and the keel pouring itself...? I'm convinced Doug will be able to give some good pointers. The casting proces was in episode 117, 118 and 119.👴🤷♂
No way! That sounds brilliant! How much does it hold?! We’re nowhere near Tavistock mind bug when we get this roadboat van conversion done it could well be worth the trip!
the design is brilliant I copied it from a rusted out one I was given I melted 4 tons in to 20kg mould and set in hollow steel keel your welcome for free if of use, can send photo but I will have to find it! regards jerry.
@@jerryburrage3238 sounds interesting, we will need to melt the whole 2t in one shot, if we can manage that in it then it sounds like the best news in a long while!
Yeah, that’s a good idea and we thought of similar but figured out 1 hour timeframe was pushing it too fine for us? The main issue I had for seen was drying the boat down. Unfortunately all of the water on the thing and from inside the lift keel mechanism too runs to the bottom which is where we needed to be… not ideal! The first 1/2 hour was taken up by this drying process and it still wasn’t great. Most likely causing reflection and why the early scans were poor. As it turns out, the guys were super kind and we could had longer and your idea would have been fab! But, could you bank on that and the Scottish weather?!
Hey Stephen, I think your right within reason. Mind you; a “standard aerofoil”, is maybe a contradiction in itself? What do you mean by this? To my knowledge lift and stall from the aerofoil can be chosen to give that little extra at your chosen speed. We’re not racing but hydro generating at low speed is a significant problem and we need all the extra help we can get! The other thing is the fore aft weight distribution, now in a hull like the G39 here that will make a huge difference if it’s not correct. If she lies with the transom submerged we will create an enormous amount of drag.
Hey Paul! You don’t have ‘Tin Lizzy’ do you?! I know she’s over your way somewhere! I’ve been trying to find her for ages now! Either way it would be great to chat, I am still undecided as to how finish the keel. Maybe send some contact details over to info@sail-hub.com Cheers, Chris 👍😀
Maybe I should not write my comment before I watch the whole clip, but I will risk it. Fotogrametry, I did not know iPhones had Ladar, they are both helpful things. I am a boat designer and did try using a laser scanner for creating a computer model of an existing hull mold, many years ago; it was a lot of work and the results were not out of this world. In case of a keel, in my humble opinion, it would be much easier, having access to the actual keel, to just take some measurements and build a 3D model in Cad, which would take a few hours, max. Unless what you really want to do is create some TH-cam content and show us some lovely Scotish castles, which, I imagine, would take you days and lots of coin. Now, please, somebody tell me how wrong I am. I will try my iPhone, but I do not think the accuracy is there to map an object of this size. A 3D model for Google, certainly, but not a 3D model for CAM. Now that I have put my professional reputation on the table, I am going back to watch the clip to see how it plays out.
@Jarek12010 Hey Jarek, cheers for the comment fella. Yeah, it’s all about recognising our situation. We’re not designers, and finding one to work with us at a cost we could afford wasn’t really going very well. Can you imagine the giggle you would have if we made our own shape based on basic measurements?! You would be laughing all the way home I’m sure!! So, we resorted to what we can do. I would have preferred a split mould but we didn’t have the time so scanning it was. Anyhow, the phone cost what a phone costs and our Scottish trip was a 2hr drive from home so it’s all been super cheap to be honest. Scanning has also come on a long way in recent years and I was really sceptical but it turns out it was pretty accurate and we are happy with the results. I also went through a bunch of naca shapes and found a exact match to be accurate within a couple of mm. Possibly a good coincidence? All that being said…. I am not convinced the existing bulb is the right way to go yet, part of me wants to reduce the bulb size and add ballast inside the fin. A bid to reduce wetted area to help toward our builds (the SailZero Project) primary reason which is to reduce inefficiency to reduce overall mineral use. Anyway, we need to make our decisions soon as when our van build comes to a close the first job is the keel!
@@SailHub You are selling yourself short; I learn during the clip that you are a boatbuilder(sorry for only finding out now) and I see you have taken the offsets from the keel, so you absolutely know what you r doing. The photogrametry looks pretty, but that does not necessarily mean that it is accurate; I am sure you will compare it to the offsets you got. I would not make the bulb smaller, at the cost of shifting ballast into the keel. I am assuming you are building a cruising boat, not an America's Cup contender. I am sure you know the ballast needs to be as low as possible. I do not think the wetted surface savings are worth it. I would make the keel as structurally strong as possible and hang all the lead at the bottom.
Chanced upon this . Extraordinary . So many things can go wrong and would you even know? Never mind all that, is the sister ship owner happy with the keel and would he change the profile if he had the chance I wonder?
Hey Tim, I wonder how many people would actually know if they were happy with their keel bulb and would they know how it would be shaped to perform differently? I As for so many things can go wrong? I thought the same and then thought, what can go wrong that can’t be undone?
Hello wouldn’t know as this was the pro and this is all we can speak about. The best result came from the iPhone 11 with photogrammetry, now that really did shock me!
I might be stating the obvious but can you fill the keel with lead shot and just seal the top with a blowtorch ? It's how radiation proof doors are made for hospitals. ps... I'm not convinced you were in Scotland. 1: didn't see Nessie and 2: it wasn't raining.
I’d you see Nessie you would be loaded mate! Oh, it took about two weeks to be able to film in the shed without the rain pounding on the roof!! Yeah, the lead shot would be great, only there’s not enough space to pour it into. Well, there is the fin but that only holds 1/4 of the required weight at present and it’s also not low enough to get the correct righting moment. Hence the need to make the bulb in the bottom.
@@SailHub ...Well, bother ! Here I was thinking I was clever. If I saw Nessie they'd put me back in the looney bin. Took me ages to tunnel out last time. Can Jenni visit Belgium and do a Summer dance? I overslept last week and now it's winter setting in already. I'll be dead keen to see how you make the mould for the keel bulb. Sand cast or lost wax? Can't wait to see !
Mate! She will be dancing not too far from you for METS in Amsterdam later this year! As for the looney bin, I think we’re still in it and searching for your tunnel. Get yourself back in here, it’s way more fun! Looks like the keel is going to be a winter project, we’re just discussing our propulsion through the rivers home so it kinda has to be a winter project t as we want to launch in late spring!!
@@SailHub .." As for the looney bin, I think we’re still in it and searching for your tunnel. Get yourself back in here, it’s way more fun! "... I back filled it on my way out. Hard work with just a plastic spoon.
Quite possibly! Have you any experience with them? I would have liked to do that but we got the call to say the companies scanner was bust the day before we set off to scotland so it was a case of what we can pick up on the high street!
😂 I guess when your marital relationship spans both countries it feels like one. But, thanks for making the point. Mind you, it’s worth noting that we’re currently living in the Trossachs too.. 😉
@Mechone11 cheers for that, I woyeah… reasonable’s a bit of an open ended statement. Would suggest it’s got to be based on budget, understanding, how much you willing to throw at it and what your options are. Sadly I can’t imagine it being affordable for us. Mainly because a repair is a hell of a lot easier than making a new one, even if you had to melt it down!!
I thought the Van video was good but this was fascinating. SO well put together... Really interesting to look at the two methods and surprising to see the iPhone 15 not being worth using compared to the iPhone 11.
So cool you came back to watch another! Thanks 👍
Yeah we were surprised too! We actually ended up keeping the phone as we missed the return date! It’s being used as a camera now and again. It’s pretty good for that, mind you we’ve never used it to scan since.
Nice. Love watching sailing uma . Following Duracell as well, odd sailing and sail life but now you. Filling the hole left by tally Ho finishing their build. Much love too you guys.
Hey up! That’s fab to hear, thanks for jumping aboard! So cool to be in with all thy lot! All great people doing great things! Cheers to Sailors! 🍻⛵️🤙
OMG I am honestly so envious, I love that boat, following! And y'all are dropping right into the slot left empty by Tallyho splashing!
She’s got character that’s for sure!! Stoked you’ve found something new to keep your eye on. If you missed our last video it goes into a bit more detail on our project 🤟🏼 Thanks for your comment, buzzing.
I just wanted to tell you both how much I’m enjoying watching your program unfold, great job.
Hey Richard,
Thanks for that, I really appreciate you letting us know, it makes all the difference to us! Cheers! 👍
Not a bad idea mate.
Lazy way weve done it, get a box cover the bulb and fill with expansion foam. Then cut in half and have a full mould. Just remember to cover in cling wrap or release agent. This has proven to work well in our yard for moulds that are straight copies from sister ships.
For sure, that would have been ace. Bug with 1 hour in the slings I wasn’t confident enough to use up my only chance with foam due to the hardening time.
Two videos into this build and I am looking forward to seeing what a pro wooden boat builder can do with an aluminum hull. Great find - I'm usually not a fan of aluminum boats but this one looks to have great lines both in the hull and the cabin top. The lifting keel looks pretty cool too - more maintenance but more fast. With Tally Ho going in the water, now I know where I can get my quality boat building video fix. Thanks for sharing!!!
Hi Hamish! Thanks for your comments, such kind words and a lot to live up too!
Here hoping we can keep you entertained!! 👍⛵️
Hello from Australia stumbled on to your channel and hooked beautiful boat looking forward to your build and finishing your new boat . Cheers Tom
Cheers Tom! Hope you don’t mind a bit of van action too, we’ve gotta sort that so we have somewhere to live in Switzerland! Super stoked to be getting started on the boat mind!!
Photogrametry app now downloaded to my Android. Drop-dead-brilliant!
Woohooo brilliant! Good to know it works on Android too!! 🤟🏼 What ya gonna scan first? 😉
I've used scanners a number of times, putting some calibrated CLEAR blocks on the item being scanned , then you have calibrated surfaces for use when you get into CAD.
Good Luck
Nice tips! Thanks for that. So we’re getting on with it now, makers manual have been legendary and I think we have a shape!! Stoked!!
Thanks again for the tips!! 👍🏼
Tremendous video, love the locations great explanations enjoyed. Lofting there’s a tough one to explain seen it used a couple of times on TH-cam still seems a bit dark arts. Really glad I subscribed.
Hi, thanks for the compliments! Just what we need to keep our spirits up! Great your enjoyed the video and super cool that you have joined us on our journey too!!
Hopefully we can sort some of these dark arts out!! 🤙😀
I have only seen a couple of your episodes, but super interesting and great presentation style. I am here for the ride . Thanks for your great content
Hi Eric, great to have you join us. Thank you for the support too!
Very cool looking boat, should be a rocketship! Intrigued by your phone scanning. We have an old Westerly twin keeler here in NZ and have modified it significantly over the years including lengthening the hull at both ends -got a bit carried away!. The keels are really slowing it down and I've been debating modernising them. A good starting point would be to take lines off the hulls and keels so scanning the keels would be a nice way to do them. I created a 3D model of the deck before building a solid dodger so would be nice to add the hull to that. Anyway look forward to seeing your project progress, thanks for sharing it :)
Woah! That’s an insane amount of work! I would love to see it!
Could be cool to make new keels, I presume a shorter chord with less frontal area would be the ticket. Add some lead bulbs to minimise the size of the bulbs, would you go a little deeper too to allow less ballast with the same RM?
Talking about RM, would you tie the keels in? Possibly increase Venturi?
Ooooh the questions!
Great to have someone who clearly thinks out of the box in our journey, hope to hear some of your ideas for us and also see what your up too - super interesting!
-Chris
@@SailHub Current thinking is lead bulbs on timber/GRP fins and that with an extra 250-300mm draft (1450-1500) righting moment should be similar (probably a little less at low heel angles and more as heel increases) but should save around 4-500kg displacement (currently around 5000kg with ~1000kg in each keel). We have a very good Naval Architect in town so my rationale was to get him to consult on (a) feasibility and if OK, (b) provide design detail. Current Laurent Giles keels are slightly toed in, very thick chord and also low aspect but aside from the immediate drag penalty, I believe with the extended hull we're getting adverse hull/keel interference.
However her achillies heel is roll induced heel which makes it unpleasant to steer when she rolls downwind, so if we can improve that it would be a worthwhile exercise. The performance gains are a no-brainer, could potentially reduce wetted surface by nearly 10%, and if done well form drag should decrease markedly as well. A little hard to financially justify as it's a ~STG20K boat and probably will continue to be. If it improved the handling though it would really help the coastal runs which are ~200nm in either direction to the next major ports, heading off with a tail wind is the way to get there.
When I was boatbuilding I worked with a Aussie guy who designed and built his own yacht and had sailed it around the world. Amazing light and fast boat but he had a 2 tonne lead bulb with lifting keel. He was amazingly innovative, particularly in ways to save money and used a 4WD winch to both lift the keel and also to lift the anchor. The keel had 3m draft down and the anchor chain was stowed at the base of the keel to keep weight out of the bow. Bow waterlines were quite hollow and the 28hp Kubota could motor them upwind at 6 knots in 25 knots of wind. Not bad on a 44 footer! The lifting keel is wonderful to provide sailing efficiency and good offshore stability without limiting anchoring options. He also used to go into shallow water and dump the keel onto the bottom, then alternately lean the boat to each side to scrub the bottom.
Very cool video!
Thanks for your kind words! Just the encouragement we need!! Cheers and hope to see you for the next one!
Watching intently from the west coast of Canada! Crazy interesting! Thank you 🇨🇦
Thanks Mark! It’s folk like you that keep us going!
The iPhone 15 calculated, with AI, the bumbs and hits the keel will get in the future 😉👍👍
Well done brilliant camera work
Hello there! Thanks!
Nicely done, clever buck
Cheers laddo! We’re getting there and will no doubt call you in for advice at some point!!!! 👍⛵️
as soon as you said the corry vecin i knew where you were lol fowen a spiniker through there done a 360 in a whirlpool whie keeping it fying!! the place is mental
nice boat aswell
Yeah! New we’re talking! It’s an epic ride that’s for sure, we miss sailing that place soo much!
Thanks for the compliments on the boat, keep an eye out for us next year, we hope to be in the UK again!!
Amazing!! Can you scan Oli on Robertas belly? Would love to see our kid!! 🥰
Cheers guys, great to hear from you! For sure, must be awesome to see the bairn, and your scans are super 3D too! Ultrasound has come in so much!!
i remember some dude buying a sunken p1 maclaren and doing it up and i think your yacht is on a par with the maclaren supercar in terms of wow factor
No way! That’s an epic rebuild! So cool, thanks!! 😎
The scanning with an iPhone was neat. What about the fin section of the keel, do you have that? what is its construction 👍
Hey, yeah we have that, and the drawings. It’s is aluminium 20mm frame and 10 walls.
Awesome! The algo pointed me towards your vid. Years back I did a steelie down on the south coast; you guys are making awesome progress. I think I missed it in the vid - what’s the Lidar app called please?
Hey, cheers for that! Would love to see the boat that you built!! Progress is slow to be honest as the camper needs to happen first but it’s great to be finally making it all happen!
The app we used is Polycam. There are a ton out there for you to try, we went for this one just because of the reviews.
Hair spray works good for 3d scanning to dull the surface.
Cool! Thanks Michael! 👍🙂
Verry interesting!
Cheers Martin! Stoked to be working on the Cad just now. Well, not me so much but it’s cool watching it come together!
Thank you for this honest review. We are fed so much BS about the perceived ability of products and you have shown us the absolute facts.
Hi Pieter, I’m glad it was useful for you 👍
LiDAR is good because you get actual size models and is invaluable for that reason. There's also the ability to add different models and merge them to make one that is more accurate - I'm not saying it's the best option, just find that if you don't have the tape measure or don't have the time to go over every single detail the LiDAR + photogrammetry combo is unbeatable. Basically make sure you have the same sizes between them :) I love Polycam, early adopter from 2020. It'd be great if there was a free Rhino alternative for the right kind of geometry but we can't win everything!
Yeah, your right! We can’t win everything!! We found the scanning really interesting and the results even more so.
At present we are crunching the numbers and deciding on what’s the best option but we now have options which is a step ahead for sure!!
You did well to get the Lidar/Photogrametry and lofting done in the restricted time. It's amazing that KM yachts don't have full boat drawings, build specifications, rig details, completion certificates, etc, are not filed at least one registration authority. How do boats prove they comply with the various standards. I guess pre 1980 boats may not have had much information. Next, I'm curious about how you are going to gather up several tonnes of lead for the casting. With market prices for lead at £1,650 per tonne, that could be an expensive project. I recollect 'Acorn to Arabella' seeking scrap lead from all over. Considering the permanent horrible dangers of ingesting lead, I hope you don't go the self casting route, at least in not such a rudimentary way.
Before you cast the lead, are you going to check the stability calculations and check what water ballast works. Having breiefly sailed an IMOCA 60 with water ballast, it was like having super chargers with 3 tonnes scooped up into the tanks.
Oh man, KM we’re bleeding useless! I’ve spoken to a number of KM owners, they all seems to state the same things… great boats, exceptionally well
Built and terrible after sales service. So they had nothing in the boat, I got more info from the cnc cutting company : Gaastmeer.
The rig details I managed to find from Seldén who did a sister ship but there are only two other sister ships out there and one of those was the prototype boat with a custom mast. Anyhow, they have all the righting moment calculations etc so that has been very handy.
I also have all of the paper drawings for the ballast and keel etc so we know how much we need we just we’re not perfected on the shape. (It was only a 2D drawing from one angle.
Lead, ohhh man. It’s expensive and heavy! It’s been a while since I worked with lead but I am confident we can sort it. As basic as it may seem to melt it down ourselves it’s the same thing in industry. I am happy with this and all of the dangers. Ppe, risk assessment and safety are the key, and as a boatbuilder I am confident I can protect our workforce which is the most import thing here, the keel comes second.
As for sourcing it, well… we’ve not managed that yet. Still searching! But the van build is taking up so much time that the search is slow 😆
Oh yeah, the ballast! That’s something we’re not sure what to do with yet! We’re definitely keeping it! There is 900l on either side.
No scoops, yet… but it’s about speed as to wether they will work, which of course we don’t know yet. I think we will manually pump water around from a tank inside to see what happens first and see what pressure we can generate before we go popping scoops in the boat. Although, that is of course what I want to do!
for Objekts i merge all them together in cad and after that you still ne to make a lot of sculpting and finishing to geht working model
Cool, thanks for that! As I said in the video, I’m rubbish with computers.. so we’ve got a tech wizz working on it with us, I will mention your process to him. Thanks!!!!! 👌👍
adding to my comment about placidity city, the other advantage of using plasticity is it can produce “watertight “models, which are necessary for 3-D printing. The idea of being that you could 3-D print a positive version of the keel and bulb, and then use that as thebasis to build a negative mold. That could either be for layup, or I suppose you could cast directly into it if you made it out of plaster or something similar. Perhaps even sand.
Hey Daniel, you know your onto it there fella! If I have the skills or money that’s what I would be doing. But I don’t 😂 so we’ve got to make do with what we have but yeah t your plan would be better 👍😀
@@SailHub Well, I'd be happy to see what I could do with your scanned model, since I have the full version of Plasticity. I'm using it for a boat project, so I wouldn't mind seeing what I might learn.... in case you wanna talk about it, lmk. That's with regard to the computer stuff: the fabrication is another thing, but having cleaner data is never a bad thing.
@danieldonaldson8634 Hi Daniel, that’s super kind of you! We actually have all of the CAD work finished at present, if we had known a month ago you would have the job!!
If the data is of use to you for your own experiments I can send it through for you still but there’s no need to do anything for us (this time 😂!)
Thanks so much for offering though, that is super genuine of you!! Cheers!! 👍👍
Bravoooo🎉
Cheers lad! Much appreciated ⛵️🤙
I stopped commenting earlier in the video and waited until I watched it all. Pleased that you took some ‘handraulic’ measurements - tech is good but being able to cross reference the virtual with real data provides assurance - and confidence you are heading down the right road. Great project btw.😀👍⛵️
Hi Norman, nice to hear from you!
Yeah, I’m really tech averse a lot of the time so so was definitely going to be taking some manual measurements! For all the reasons you suggested, mind you it was interesting crunching the numbers and the scans, we will put something up about it when we’re through the next step.
Thanks for taking the time to comment too, super nice of you, cheers Chris 👍
You know what the best part is of a displacement keel is you can figure out the best hydro for it by tank testing so lead takes up space for the amount of weight also means how much space it must take in our world this is called mass so yeah sure take some ideas from their keel water test their keel and refine it and play with making it your own for better hydro anything is possible their design might have drag in certain places can make better or you duplicate it and make things easy I build and rebuild boats for a living my keel on my racing sailboat is a full keel weight is 4 and a 1/2 tons of iron full boat displacement is 18,000 lbs usually for a builder and designer 50/50 between keel and construction weight with mast and rig so add it up
Hey Graham, thanks for the input, we’re looking into bulb shapes and also the reality of the beaver tail actually creating any lift. But, we’re running out of time and money too so we will see what we get.
I wasn’t planning on tank testing as I know it is. Pretty successful design and I’m not sure the costs of tank testing will be warranted. I would certainly love to do it though!
As for weights, we’re looking at 2t, existing hull and mast weigh around 3.5T I’m told however that is just what I’ve been told. As we’re on a farm it’s not so easy to get her weighed although there is always a method, just not sure if I need to make a cradle.
Anyhow, plenty to think about! I may push for some prices for some tank testing… 👍
Cheers!
that photogrammetry worked better than expected. cant wait to see the new keel
Hey Will, yeah it really surprised me! I can’t wait to see the keel either… we’re on with the cad just now! The van build is coming on too, which is handy as we need it to live in when we start the keel moulds!
I could 3d print that! you could then make the mould from the 3d print.
Hey! Now that sounds pretty epic! I would need to think about the next part of the process but that’s an interesting thought. Thanks
Have you tried to talk with km? Usualy they keep their designs at least as a reference. For Standard parts as the bulb in a komplex Lifting mechanik i can Imagine they dont change it much at all. Of cause they scale it though.
I would try to get in touch with them anyway because they will certainly have the weight calculations and everything you might need aswell. And i guess they dont want to see a couple on TH-cam doing it wrong and end up with a "km" hull with poor Performance.
Interessiert approach though. It will probably work just fine!!
Hey up Henri! Yeah, we know the guys at KM, we’ve met a few times in person and spoken a lot too. Really nice people. We have all the drawings and everything they had for the design from them and also everything form the cutting company they use too - Gaastmeer. Sadly they don’t cast their own lead and the company they use no longer have the drawings. So that’s where we are, but it was good of them to help us with what they could.
As for them worrying about a couple on TH-cam, I don’t think they are bothered at all, we all know the quality of their build and I’m sure they will be more than happy with the quality of ours too, however I don’t think they would care either way to be honest.
you had an hour or so, you couldve mixed up polyester resin with extra mkep and had a solid mold of the thing in 20 mins, just wrap whole thing in foil and start slapping fiberglass over it and wet it out, it harden in literally ten mins solid with heavy mkep....grinder cut it in half and you have perfect mold
A couple of panels on each plane around the keel and a stylo wirh a distance keeping stick
Or you could lift it properly like I did toward the end….
how do you scale the object with photogrammetry? do you have to measure the length by hand them used blender to set it to the correct scale of is the 1:1sale already determined by the app?
Yeah, that’s the way we did it anyhow 👍
@SailHub sorry I didn't understand your response. hand measure to scale in blender or the polycam app does the scaling automatically?
@martinmoss317 sorry, yes we needed to hand measure and drop the measurement it into Polycam. You can also drop it into blender if you wish.
Great work guys, I’ve got Geomagics Design X if you need any help with reverse engineering!
Hey! Thanks for getting in touch! That’s super kind of you to offer to help too!!
I think we’ve got it tied up at moment… but let’s see… it’s never done until it’s done!!! We may well come calling for help!
Lidar is an app on IPhone or to buy app.? I'm using Android S24+
Hi, I’m afraid the iPhones have a specific LiDAR Scanner - it’s the small circle next to the camera lenses on the 15 pro. It specifically measures light alone so I’m sorry it’s iPhone only at present. But… photogrammetry will still work for you, and it’s more accurate in our experience too 🥲
I suggest contacting a foundry, they might do you a sand mould
Oh they will… but up until now only if they complete the full works. So far the only quotes that came back were for the wrong boat and £16k! Then there was the quote for the correct keel (if I could get the drawings). That came in at 45k! Sadly that’s out of our budget.
Lidar is pretty good but doing it slower really can improve things, the more data you can give it the better.
For sure, we did loads of scans and found that to be the case too. It didn’t cope well with the water that ran down the keel now and then and it didn’t cope well underneath which I presume will be due to lack of light, despite the light ‘bounce’ we used.
It’s a super fast tool which is in general fab, but the photogrammetry was leagues ahead for us.
@@SailHub how close did it come to actual measurements?
@deltacx1059 we are still faffing with it but in general the photogrammetry was within a couple of mm in diameter and I think it was close to 5mm in length. For reference it’s length is 2.34M
good work on the actual measurements i’d say. something you can rely on
Cheers! Mind you, I was hardly not going to do them!
Mind you, we popped them into CAD alongside the scan, the results were astonishing!
For $2,000 seems you could buy the drawing for the keel from the architect, isn’t it Beckmeyer?
Hey, yeah… it all seems like that but then… Months of trying to contact and no reply, we just had to give up. It’s a shame, they have such a great reputation for designing good boats too.
@@SailHub that’s a shame they definitely had some real cool designs, you have it handled anyway it seems 👍👍
@cnc75adventures49 for sure and they are still drawing and building more! Just not interested in the old by I guess. As for us, yeah… we’re getting on, “handled it”? Not yet, I dare not say that until it’s done! 😆
@SailHub Maybe dropping line to the expert, Doug Brower, who helped with the mold (especially the crimping margins) and the keel pouring itself...?
I'm convinced Doug will be able to give some good pointers.
The casting proces was in episode 117, 118 and 119.👴🤷♂
Ah ha! Thanks for that, I will look him up. Much appreciated, cheers!!!! 😀
Can you reference these episodes - what’s the YT channel name?
@@normanboyes4983 It''s about the total restoration/rebuild of "Tally Ho".
The channel name is "Sampson Boat Co".
@@Arnaud58 Ah OK got yer - seen every episode - just did not click with the name (Doug) - thanks.👍
I still think the retractable wing keel would be nice and better. Lol!
Perfecto!
I still have the melting pot I used on our steel Alan Papa if of any use tavistock Devon
No way! That sounds brilliant! How much does it hold?!
We’re nowhere near Tavistock mind bug when we get this roadboat van conversion done it could well be worth the trip!
the design is brilliant I copied it from a rusted out one I was given I melted 4 tons in to 20kg mould and set in hollow steel keel your welcome for free if of use, can send photo but I will have to find it! regards jerry.
@@jerryburrage3238 sounds interesting, we will need to melt the whole 2t in one shot, if we can manage that in it then it sounds like the best news in a long while!
You could have taken a HALF MOLD WITH PLASTER AND CLOTH .
Yeah, that’s a good idea and we thought of similar but figured out 1 hour timeframe was pushing it too fine for us? The main issue I had for seen was drying the boat down.
Unfortunately all of the water on the thing and from inside the lift keel mechanism too runs to the bottom which is where we needed to be… not ideal!
The first 1/2 hour was taken up by this drying process and it still wasn’t great. Most likely causing reflection and why the early scans were poor.
As it turns out, the guys were super kind and we could had longer and your idea would have been fab! But, could you bank on that and the Scottish weather?!
shape of bulb is not crucial. Just make it 2 tons and a standard aerofoil
Hey Stephen, I think your right within reason. Mind you; a “standard aerofoil”, is maybe a contradiction in itself? What do you mean by this?
To my knowledge lift and stall from the aerofoil can be chosen to give that little extra at your chosen speed. We’re not racing but hydro generating at low speed is a significant problem and we need all the extra help we can get!
The other thing is the fore aft weight distribution, now in a hull like the G39 here that will make a huge difference if it’s not correct. If she lies with the transom submerged we will create an enormous amount of drag.
i always thought liedar is what the police use when they pull you over!!!
I’ve no idea! It here’s a fun fact.. the police speed camera vans have camera windows are Lewmar hatches over here in the UK!
Better title “3d scanning a keel with an iphone
Hi Mathew, yeah I think so. We really really struggle with titles. 😩🤦♂️
Hi. I have a similar boat with that keel in Belgium. You can contact me if you wish so. Good luck with the project!
Hey Paul! You don’t have ‘Tin Lizzy’ do you?! I know she’s over your way somewhere! I’ve been trying to find her for ages now!
Either way it would be great to chat, I am still undecided as to how finish the keel. Maybe send some contact details over to info@sail-hub.com
Cheers, Chris 👍😀
Maybe I should not write my comment before I watch the whole clip, but I will risk it. Fotogrametry, I did not know iPhones had Ladar, they are both helpful things. I am a boat designer and did try using a laser scanner for creating a computer model of an existing hull mold, many years ago; it was a lot of work and the results were not out of this world. In case of a keel, in my humble opinion, it would be much easier, having access to the actual keel, to just take some measurements and build a 3D model in Cad, which would take a few hours, max. Unless what you really want to do is create some TH-cam content and show us some lovely Scotish castles, which, I imagine, would take you days and lots of coin. Now, please, somebody tell me how wrong I am. I will try my iPhone, but I do not think the accuracy is there to map an object of this size. A 3D model for Google, certainly, but not a 3D model for CAM. Now that I have put my professional reputation on the table, I am going back to watch the clip to see how it plays out.
@Jarek12010 Hey Jarek, cheers for the comment fella.
Yeah, it’s all about recognising our situation. We’re not designers, and finding one to work with us at a cost we could afford wasn’t really going very well. Can you imagine the giggle you would have if we made our own shape based on basic measurements?! You would be laughing all the way home I’m sure!!
So, we resorted to what we can do. I would have preferred a split mould but we didn’t have the time so scanning it was. Anyhow, the phone cost what a phone costs and our Scottish trip was a 2hr drive from home so it’s all been super cheap to be honest.
Scanning has also come on a long way in recent years and I was really sceptical but it turns out it was pretty accurate and we are happy with the results. I also went through a bunch of naca shapes and found a exact match to be accurate within a couple of mm. Possibly a good coincidence?
All that being said…. I am not convinced the existing bulb is the right way to go yet, part of me wants to reduce the bulb size and add ballast inside the fin. A bid to reduce wetted area to help toward our builds (the SailZero Project) primary reason which is to reduce inefficiency to reduce overall mineral use. Anyway, we need to make our decisions soon as when our van build comes to a close the first job is the keel!
@@SailHub You are selling yourself short; I learn during the clip that you are a boatbuilder(sorry for only finding out now) and I see you have taken the offsets from the keel, so you absolutely know what you r doing. The photogrametry looks pretty, but that does not necessarily mean that it is accurate; I am sure you will compare it to the offsets you got.
I would not make the bulb smaller, at the cost of shifting ballast into the keel. I am assuming you are building a cruising boat, not an America's Cup contender. I am sure you know the ballast needs to be as low as possible. I do not think the wetted surface savings are worth it. I would make the keel as structurally strong as possible and hang all the lead at the bottom.
Chanced upon this . Extraordinary . So many things can go wrong and would you even know? Never mind all that, is the sister ship owner happy with the keel and would he change the profile if he had the chance I wonder?
Hey Tim, I wonder how many people would actually know if they were happy with their keel bulb and would they know how it would be shaped to perform differently? I
As for so many things can go wrong? I thought the same and then thought, what can go wrong that can’t be undone?
and yeah the IPhone 15 without pro is really bad sadly
Hello wouldn’t know as this was the pro and this is all we can speak about. The best result came from the iPhone 11 with photogrammetry, now that really did shock me!
Thats why they call it "lie-dar"
😃❤️
I might be stating the obvious but can you fill the keel with lead shot and just seal the top with a blowtorch ? It's how radiation proof doors are made for hospitals. ps... I'm not convinced you were in Scotland. 1: didn't see Nessie and 2: it wasn't raining.
I’d you see Nessie you would be loaded mate! Oh, it took about two weeks to be able to film in the shed without the rain pounding on the roof!!
Yeah, the lead shot would be great, only there’s not enough space to pour it into. Well, there is the fin but that only holds 1/4 of the required weight at present and it’s also not low enough to get the correct righting moment. Hence the need to make the bulb in the bottom.
P.s Jenni was doing a sun dance for days prior to the lift day in the hope it wasn’t raining for the scan and we lucked out! 😉
@@SailHub ...Well, bother ! Here I was thinking I was clever. If I saw Nessie they'd put me back in the looney bin. Took me ages to tunnel out last time. Can Jenni visit Belgium and do a Summer dance? I overslept last week and now it's winter setting in already. I'll be dead keen to see how you make the mould for the keel bulb. Sand cast or lost wax? Can't wait to see !
Mate! She will be dancing not too far from you for METS in Amsterdam later this year!
As for the looney bin, I think we’re still in it and searching for your tunnel. Get yourself back in here, it’s way more fun!
Looks like the keel is going to be a winter project, we’re just discussing our propulsion through the rivers home so it kinda has to be a winter project t as we want to launch in late spring!!
@@SailHub .." As for the looney bin, I think we’re still in it and searching for your tunnel. Get yourself back in here, it’s way more fun! "... I back filled it on my way out. Hard work with just a plastic spoon.
Or you could just buy an object scanner for as low a $350 that is actually made to do that.
Quite possibly! Have you any experience with them? I would have liked to do that but we got the call to say the companies scanner was bust the day before we set off to scotland so it was a case of what we can pick up on the high street!
Sorry to correct you but Scotland and England are not the same country!
😂 I guess when your marital relationship spans both countries it feels like one. But, thanks for making the point. Mind you, it’s worth noting that we’re currently living in the Trossachs too.. 😉
Contact marskeel in Canada they are # 1 for keels and ship all over the world
I did that. The price was just ridiculous 😂🤦♂️
@@SailHub I know someone that sent their keel there from Australia for repair and said it was reasonable
@Mechone11 cheers for that, I woyeah… reasonable’s a bit of an open ended statement. Would suggest it’s got to be based on budget, understanding, how much you willing to throw at it and what your options are.
Sadly I can’t imagine it being affordable for us. Mainly because a repair is a hell of a lot easier than making a new one, even if you had to melt it down!!
wouldnt it be 1000 times easier to create a mold? :/
@Mikael-jthk As a boatbuilder that was my choice.
But as I explained in the video, we could not do it. 👍