Gwyn: "y'know... Gwyndolin... I used to be so badass... I slew dragons... I killed monsters... I even founded a civilization!" Gwyndolin: "yeah... Sure, dad... Now... It's time to take your meds...."
It always struck a chord with me how sad the Gwyn fight really is. Throughout all the rest of the game you're fighting these super intimidating, ultra powerful hulking brutes of bosses, barely overcoming these herculean challenges by the skin of your teeth... Then finally you make it to what very obviously feels like the end of the world, The Kiln of the First Flame, you're hyped up to see what fantastical boss is waiting for you, but you enter that fog gate and you just see an old man barely bigger than your player character (very unlike all the other bosses.) There stands an elderly husk in this dark dimly lit crumbling room in a long forgotten Colosseum, Gwyn, a character that's been hyped up the whole way through the game only now he's a frail and unimposing boss compared to the other bosses in Dark Souls, then finally that music kicks in... it makes you wonder if what you're doing, if what Gwyn has done, if anything at all is "right" in this world. I actually cried the first time I fought Gwyn, to this day I still have no idea why I cried. I was just overcome with emotion for some reason, Gwyn caught me so off guard, I felt genuinely moved and saddened by what the game was making me do and what the implications of this fight could be. Somehow, it was just a beautifully tragic encounter, despite Gwyn being a massive pushover, or rather maybe _because_ he is a massive pushover, it was one of the most memorable and lasting experiences I've had in a video game bar none.
@@3starperfectdeer233 In this case size does indeed matter since it makes him look much less intimidating than other bosses. Paired with his old age and sad music it’s pretty simple to understand that he is a much weaker threat than he once was.
I am struggling with him with my unga bunga 50 strength 11 vitality 40 endurance character. I mean, I’m also not parrying or using summons tho. Side note: I beat Ornstein/Smough and the capra demon first try but this old man is annihilating me.
@@Watermelon-nh4sp he gave me trouble too, 40 endurance, 20 dexd, 40 str, and like base vit or something, he's pretty hard against a tanky character, draining stamina very quickly if you're blocking, had to learn how to parry to beat him
I think that was the intention They show you that he was the mightiest of the Gods, the one with the most powerful soul, a religion formed from his existence And now, after the world went to shit, he can be dealt with like a common hollow This God killed the immortal, used lightning as weapons and had children so powerful that each of them had their own religion now reduced to a husk, to the common hollow that used a broken sword as a weapon
Tragedy... that foolish God has caused so much suffering and agony, twisting and bending the world in unnatural ways just to prolong his selfish dream of the age of fire. It's not a tragedy, it's karma. Everything that happened to him and his allies was deserved
The only alternative was the age of dark which could be the end of all. Sacrificing himself to prolong the age of fire is a noble thing how do you think?
@@imranreiaz-wk9lv Nobody would've suffered in the age of dark like everyone has suffered in the prolonged age of fire. Age of Dark is the era of humanity, the natural course of history. It went like Dragons > Fire [Gods] and Dark [Humanity]. He selfishly tried to increase the time of his rule by "sacrificing himself".
@@TheBaguetteSpy please correct me I thought Gwyn was human so he prevented the age of dark(humanity) so he could stay the Lord of Cinder in the Age of fire. It would make sense if it wasn’t the fact that he was suffering during the age of fire no? That’s why he’s become so weak during the end of DS1?
@@imranreiaz-wk9lv Gwyn is a different race from human, all gods are. That's why his era is the age of fire. The age of darkness is the era of man, in the first game, humanity is an item of darkness that can be used to restore humanity [increasing health and fixing your appearance]. And in DS3 endings, age of dark ending is the ending of humanity. And yes, Gwyn did try to remain the Lord of Cinder by sacrificing himself, it was an extreme measure no doubt.
@@lomray6701 I've probably never seen anyone ever trying so hard not to get the main idea of this beautifully tragic boss. Your remarks on both the parrying and the white keys, you just add to this sad experience.
I am late, but I have to say this. All the Dark Souls events could have been prevented if Gwyn didn't relink the First Flame. As heroic as he was during the war against the Arch Dragons, he feared that the Age of Dark would bring the destruction of everything HIS Age of Fire has brought; look what happened in both Dark Souls II and ESPECIALLY Dark Souls III?
All of which happen during the Fading of the Fire. Each game gives you lore how in between this times, when the Fire is fine, the kingdoms you visited were prosperous and life was good. Do you know what the Age Of Fire brought? Everything. Yes, the linking was a temporary solution, but would you prefer we cut straight to the " feast"? Because that's what the Age Of Dark is. Feasting. And you know what's the main course.
@@efaristi9737 Dead. Scattered around the globe, or dead. Irithyllians, a race of humans with godlike features, are all that seems to be left by the end. The only exception was Gwyndolin, and, well...
@@efaristi9737 They probably wished they could.... But even their descendants weren't safe. Irithyll's a ghost town now; the Silver Knights bleed black goo. The Pontiff Knights and Fire Witches are " harrowed spirits". This place is dead. Anor Londo is dead. Everybody's just...gone.
I just last week learned to parry Gwyn, every other time I’ve played through DS1(probably like 6-7, and MANY TIMES for DS2-3) I never parried. But I recently played through Sekiro so I wanted to learn the Parry skill. And wow, I basically beat Gwyn and a lot of other FS bosses on hard mode!!😂😂
In my opinion, the fact that Gwyn isn’t this extremely OP and way too strong Endboss makes him even more recognizable/ memorable. I don’t know why, but the fact that Gwyn is not very unlike us makes him so ….relatable in a weird way! I can also imagine gwyn standing for a player.
A holy sword eroded by the Abyss. When Wolnir fell to the Abyss, he was gripped by a fear of true darkness, and pleaded to the gods for the first time. This holy sword, together with three armlets stripped from the corpses of clerics, gave him some semblance of comfort The fate of Wolnir is the fate of all humans in the age of Dark,When the fire finally fade they will beg for Gwyn help.Alas Gwyn and the flame is already gone… abandoned by the world and the people he tried to save
And the lack of cutscene is totally unrelated to running out of time and money towards the end of the development? And yeah, just cast Iron Flesh and Flash Sweat and hack away at him... that's how I did it.
If Gwyn didn't link the flame the first time then the human race will not have a choice at all,They will have to helplessly watch as the age of Dark encroach upon them One day fire will fade, and dark will become a curse. Men will be free from death, left to wander eternally. Dark will again be ours, and in our true shape, we can bury the false legends of yore. Only... is this our only choice? We are feeble vessels, with feebler souls. We would cast aside the prop of life, only to face greater hardship. The fire will fade, and the souls of old will reamerge. With Dark unshackled, a curse will be upon us. And men will take their true shape. And the age of Dark doesn't look to be enjoyable for anybody but the Abyssal creatures I say Gwyn approach were quite democratic,He put the agency into the hand
I can’t say that Dark Souls 2 final bosses had as much of an impact on me as the final bosses of FromSoft’s other games. I honestly just don’t have that much to say about the Aldia or Nashandra fights. But I will cover other FromSoft bosses and topics in the future!
To be fair, it's more of a "person facing the consequences of their actions" story rather a tragic story. Gwyn came across a source of great power and immediately used it to overthrow and exterminate what was, at least to the player, a peaceful race of eternal dragons. He upset the balance and when he found out that he did so and that his Age of Fire and absolute control over the world would end, he literally sacrificed everything that made him Gwyn in a bid to keep power which ended up being pointless and the fire still starts to fade anyway. Gwyn's greed made him ruin the entire world, he caused the hollowing, the ring knights and caused suffering for countless. Most of the world's issues in Dark Souls can be traced back for his undying need for power so he isn't as sympathetic as a lot of people make him out to be. He essentially caused the apocalypse to keep power.
No, it isn't. It's about how people who are facing their annihilation won't bow down to it. We see this at the beginning - the birth of the flame and Lord's souls was meant to bring the end to to the age of ancients. The dragons didn't bow down to the lords, they fought for their survival and stay the apex predator to be ultimately defeated. I choose the dark ending because I, as an undead, benefit none from being a second class citizen to the lords. But I don't disagree with Gwyn and him trying to prolong the age of fire and his dynasty.
I think you mistaking fear for greed. If greed was really Gwyn motive then he would have sacrificed someone else than him to the Fire. It was not HIS power he sought to preserve since after offering himself to the fire, he gained nothing but suffering and hollowing. What he sought to preserve was his people for he knew that the Age of Dark would be their end just like the Age of Fire was the end of the Ancients Dragons. So what he did is actually very tragic and noble. Noble because he sacrificed everything he was to get the Age of Fire going, in the hope to save his people. Tragic because it ought to nothing, the Fire will soon fade and feeding it undeads only buy a little time and erode the world a little more.
Yah I never felt sad about killing Gwyn. His easiness was unintentional, as in an interview one of the developers said that they regretted making gwyn parryable, as it made the fight too easy. Besides, I view him as a bad guy.
« From its unnaturally long duration » Noooo ! The video started so well >< It’s not the unnatural prolongation that provokes this decay, it’s literally the opposite, it’s the nearing of the end of the prolongation -_- It’s literally said outright in the beginning, the flame is fading, there are only embers left, and the curse thus appears, and that’s reinforced throughout the game, not even Kaathe denies that, and for all this talk of « unnatural »... *How is it unnatural to prolong a fire by feeding it ?!!* Seriously, trying to create an eternal flame, like the witch does, that’s unnatural, and that leads to the demons, abominable creatures that should’ve never seen the day, but feeding a fire to prolong its life, especially if all you’re doing is giving it back what it originally had (the souls that the lords took from the flame), how can you in any way call that unnatural ? It’s literally the opposite. Heck, if anything it’s a nice contrast with the witch : the witch tried to cheat the natural order, and was punished for it by suffering a punishment greater than pretty much anyone in the series, where not only she lost herself, but also her kingdom and children. Gwyn on the other hand decided to surrender himself to the natural order and bear all the sacrifices that had to be made, and therefore sacrifice himself to the flame. And yes, the player will have to make the same sacrifice of course, there’s no way around that, there ain’t no free meal. As for wether it’s worth it or not... Yes ? That’s pretty obvious given that after Gwyn’s departure, many kingdoms could flourish until the flame faded again, and we learn in DS2 and DS3 that plenty other kingdoms saw the day after each re-kindling, proving that it was definitely worth it. Also, abandoning the flame isn’t simply « not having a guarantee that the world will heal », it’s « being almost guaranteed that the world is doomed », because as far as DS1 is concerned, once the fire goes out it’s the end, people will change into hollows, the number of humanities will slowly diminish, everyone will either lose his mind to the curse or lose his heart by preying on others to keep their sanity a little while longer, etc. And DS2 and DS3 confirm that, if you don’t kindle the flame the world turns to shit very fast, and the fire has to have been linked enough times before the lords of cinders can leave the embers that will be the hope when the fire fully runs out. « there is no good or bad choice » At best that was the goal, but if that was the goal, it was miserably failed, because the developers gave an overwhelming amount of evidence that the age of fire was the way to go, and the age of dark a calamity to avoid at all cost. But at least I’m happy that someone is reminding people of how awesome Gwyn’s fight is parry-less, rather than just going « hur dur Gwyn easy just parry » XD Edit : also nice to see someone reminding people why Gwyn was great, #makeLordranGreatAgain, rather than just going on and on about unverified nonsense on what he could’ve done or not done for reasons the series never makes clear and that therefore we’d have a hard time judging him on, that was pretty sweet.
@kipskip_ I’d like to make a detailed response to everything I disagree with in your answers, because there is a lot, but I don’t have the time right now and I’m pretty frustrated by your endless assertions with no justification, or selective use of evidence, like when you ignore the fact that Oscar literally has an opposite dialogue to the one you mentioned where he says you fell for Kaathe’s lies. Instead, I’ll ask you a question : Why did Gwyn sacrifice himself+humans, rater than just humans ?
@kipskip_ « I believe the branding of the undead » I don’t care, answer the question, why would Gwyn kill himself when his plan is, according to you, to kill humans to fuel the flame. « Gwyn kindled himself atleast a thousand years ago » Yes, and ? If his plan was to have humans do the job for him, he didn’t need to kindle the flame himself at all. So why did he do it ? « humans were literally of dark themselves » No. « I don’t think he knew of anway to harness their humanity for the flame » So he isn’t the one responsible for the humans being sacrificed then, the other gods are, right ? Also, how could he not have known, literally all you have to do is to give them enough souls and send them to the flame, how could he not figure that out ? « he rather flooded new londo » No, that happened after Gwyn sacrificed himself. By the way, the flooding happened because the darkwraiths were horrible PoS and the cancer known as the abyss was spreading, not because they didn’t care about humans. « It always struck me as odd in a game with excellent scripting » Why ? He is royalty, and old, obviously making him speak differently and in a way that implies more education and age would make sense :| « Isn’t it weird how one would create a fortress in which people would prove themselves worthy to enter your kingdom » No, because we aren’t told that’s what happened, we know there is a fortress, we know there are traps there, and we know it’s a way to access Anor Londo, we know nothing of its original purpose, who created it, who assigned it its current purpose, etc. « with the end goal of killing you? » ... Who is the « you » in that sentence ? « Especially someone with an ego as big as Gwyn’s » There you go again with the baseless assertions -_- Prove that he had an ego please. « Gwyn didn’t know how to sacrifice humans » He couldn’t just ask any non humans then ? Like any of the black knights that marched with him in the fire without his order (the lord’s greatsword tells us he marched in the flame with this sword as his only companion, which means the BK didn’t follow him because he ordered them). Or, I don’t know, just even try to sacrifice one human ? How come he knew how to sacrifice himself, but not how to sacrifice humans exactly ? « waged war on them in Oolacile » No he didn’t, that happened after he died, as we know from the presence of pyromancies, an art that quelana only taught to humans a mere handful of centuries ago by her own admission. I’m really annoyed because that’s stuff you should know, especially considering how matter of factly you speak about things. « He flooded new londo along-side the four kings » No he didn’t, the sealers if Londo did, and not only are there no references at all anywhere ever to even remotely imply that Gwyn gave the order, but Frampt outright tells us that « since » Gwyn’s departure some of bearers of great souls have turned to evil. His dialogue is that some don’t have a use for it, and some have turned to evil, I can see how the former applies to Nito (his soul says that he sacrificed most of it to death, meaning he should be nearing his own death, meaning he doesn’t have a use for his soul for long), or to the witch (she transformed into the bed of chaos, she has no sentience that we know of anymore, her own daughter thinks that she is just stuck in the torment of being a monster, etc), but it obviously doesn’t apply to the four kings or Seath. And it doesn’t matter that you think the four kings weren’t evil, if that’s what you think, what matters is that as per frampt’s word whatever the four kings did that lead to the sealing of new londo, it happened after Gwyn burned himself. « it’s clear his kindling was still powerful enough to last another thousand ears at the very least » I’m not entirely sure what you mean by that, do you mean he had confidence that what was left of his soul (after he gave it to people that include the four kings, maybe he shouldn’t have trusted these humans after all) was enough to kindle the bonfire ?
@@nathanjora7627 humanity isn't strong enough by itself to keep the flame going for very long. He had to sacrifice himself too, because his soul was strong enough to keep it going for a long time. For gwyn, it wasn't about wanting to hold onto his power, it was about keeping his age of fire going because he was afraid of the dark. There is zero actual evidence that the "age of dark" is an end of the world scenario, all we have to go on for that is that gwyn was afraid of the dark and the power the wielders of the dark soul "humans" possessed. The current situation of undead going hollow was caused by gwyn attempting to seal the soul of man to limit the dark soul, causing it to lash out. We see this first hand with manus. He wasn't evil, he lost his mind due to the dark soul lashing out from being restrained, creating the abyss that warped everything around it as it continued to lash out. Had gwyn not attempted to seal the soul of man, mankind would have been able to rely on their humanity for their sense of self, but since it was sealed away, they came to rely on their white souls for that, and the weakening of the seal with the fading of the fire allows their restrained humanity to lash out and consume the white soul, leading to hollowing. All that being said, he did mess up by trying to go against the nature of the world, and because he did, he's forever also doomed mankind to have to keep it up since they are directly linked to the source of the problem now.
@@unnamed_protagonist"humanity isn't strong enough by itself to keep the flame going for very long" Which doesn't really matter anyway, since 1) Gwyn can and has given his soul away, so he could've just given it to a human, 2) we know that even if a human doesn't originally possess the strength to do it, acquiring the strength by taking someone else's soul works as well, since that's literally what DS1's plot is. Oh by the way : it's false. Lorewise the ivory king, the old iron king, the king of shulva, and vendrick are all monarchs candidate that could've linked the first flame, and they were all humans, not to mention the abyss watchers, or ludleth, or the fact that as far as we know most people who linked the fire were humans. "He had to sacrifice himself too, because his soul was strong enough to keep it going for a long time." That's true, but it also overlooks a really important element : it wasn't "his soul" that was strong enough, it was "what was left of his soul after giving *most* of it away". Meaning that only a relatively small fraction of his soul was enough to keep the fire lit for a thousand years. So Gwyn could've just kept most of his soul for himself and gave only the small fragment he actually used to link the fire to a human or black knight. "There is zero actual evidence that the "age of dark" is an end of the world scenario" There is though, we have vendrick and aldia, who both talk about the dark ending as a bad ending, even if neither like the flame either, Vendrick : "One day, fire will fade, and Dark will become a curse. Men will be free from death, left to wander eternally. Dark will again be ours, and in our true shape… We can bury the false legends of yore… Only… Is this our only choice?", or Aldia "There is no path. Beyond the scope of light, *beyond the reach of Dark…* …what could possibly await us ?", we have DS3's firekeeper "The eyes show a world without fire, a vast stretch of darkness. But 'tis different to what is seen when stripped of vision." Oh, I wonder what is the difference, maybe the eyes reveal that this vast stretch of darkness ain't so bad after all, so what's the rest of her dialogue ? "In the far distance, *I sense the presence of tiny flames* " Oh... Well it's not saying that the dark is good, but at least it's saying that the firelinking wasn't necessary, right ? "Like precious embers, *left to us by past Lords, linkers of the fire* " Oh... So the flames that make the darkness different from what she sees without visions are the ones left by linkers of the fire, meaning without them it would just have been a stretch of darkness... Well... Eh... No evidence you said ? Give it a rest, of course we have actual evidence -_- And that's not mentioning stuff like the locust preacher's dialogue that tells you to "let the feast begin". "all we have to go on for that is that gwyn was afraid of the dark" Oh, you mean the guy that "came" from the dark (see DS1's intro, "and from the dark they came" referring to the lords, the japanese says "born of", making it even clearer), knew the original holder of the dark soul, fought alongside the first men, was allied with the pygmy kings/had the pygmy kings as vassal, and was himself the master of the opposite soul, and the "ultimate" soul, was afraid of the dark... And that doesn't count as evidence how ? If one of the guys that should know most about the dark tells you it'll hurt you, and actually backs that up with actions such as sacrificing himself, thus showing that he wasn't merely fearing for his personal wellbeing or position, maybe it's a good idea to listen to him. "and the power the wielders of the dark soul" Oh, yeah, what's that power again ? I think Kaathe talks about it "if you wish, I shall grant the art of Lifedrain, the legendary power of the Dark Lord." Oh, so the power of the wielders of the dark soul is lifedrain... *I really can't imagine why Gwyn wouldn't have wanted that around* XD "The current situation of undead going hollow was caused by gwyn attempting to seal the soul of man to limit the dark soul" No, again read Vendrick's dialogue "One day, fire will fade, and *Dark will become a curse.* Men will be free from death, left to wander eternally." "We see this first hand with manus." No we don't, Manus didn't become the father/master of the abyss because he was constrained, his humanity went wild because of some unknown thing the oolacilian did to him that could literally just have been to unearth him and steal his pendant. "creating the abyss that warped everything around it" Manus explicitly did not create the abyss, those were around even in the time of the war against the dragons "Straight sword wielded by the Ringed Knights.The arms of early men were forged in the Abyss" "the weakening of the seal with the fading of the fire allows their restrained humanity to lash out and consume the white soul, leading to hollowing." Except it's not just the white soul it consumes, it's also the humanity "Death triggers the Darksign, which returns its bearer to the last bonfire rested at, but at the cost of all humanity and souls." Also you forget the dark sigil, which is something humans, pro kaathe humans, spread around, and what is it again ? "A black gaping hole in the flesh *that resembles the brand of an Undead.* ", and let's not forget that having this causes/permits hollowing. Meaning you're demonstrably wrong, and that you have no evidence gwyn was the one to do anything here, especially in terms of causing hollowing. "he did mess up by trying to go against the nature of the world" Eh, no ? First because the natural order was going to f*ck everyone over, by turning humans into hollows, and making the land frigid and dark, and second because he didn't go against any natural order, and yes I know what Kaathe says to us, but at no point does he prove that, and there is no reason to believe that giving fuel to a fire actually messes up the natural order. "because he did, he's forever also doomed mankind to have to keep it up since they are directly linked to the source of the problem now." That is most definitely proven wrong by Vendrick's dialogue, and even Aldia's to an extent, since he seems to be saying that humans owe the very existence of their normal lives, the lives where they can think, fall in love, etc, to gwyn, and that it's something illusory, meaning the absence of all that (kinda like when you're hollow, wink wink, nudge nudge) would be the base state. Not saying that's definitely what he implies because his dialogues are a bit of a mess, but Vendrick alone is enough to disprove that. ... Sorry for the length of the answer, I hope you won't take it to heart >
@@nathanjora7627 while i will admit that you do make a few good points, i do have some issues. Gwyn explicitly sealed the power of the dark soul. You think it's a coincidence that the darksign is a literal ring of fire around a black hole, you know, exactly like the seal he put on the weapon and armor forged in the abyss during the war with the dragons. If you say that the dark sign is what returns undead to bonfires without souls or humanity, then it's explicitly gwyns fault that hollowing occurs. Look, I'm not saying Gwyn did any of what he did maliciously ( though he did put human lower at every possible turn, like scrubbing their innvolvement in the dragon war, then giving them a city as far away as physically possible after sealing their power), but in the end, he's just a guy who found the light soul, what right does he have to decide how the world should be. He had his time, it was humanities turn, then when their time was up the fire would spark to life again just like it did the first time. It's unnatural because it wasn't nature that fed the fire. It was a scared man.
Gwyn: "y'know... Gwyndolin... I used to be so badass... I slew dragons... I killed monsters... I even founded a civilization!"
Gwyndolin: "yeah... Sure, dad... Now... It's time to take your meds...."
"ok boomer"
It always struck a chord with me how sad the Gwyn fight really is. Throughout all the rest of the game you're fighting these super intimidating, ultra powerful hulking brutes of bosses, barely overcoming these herculean challenges by the skin of your teeth... Then finally you make it to what very obviously feels like the end of the world, The Kiln of the First Flame, you're hyped up to see what fantastical boss is waiting for you, but you enter that fog gate and you just see an old man barely bigger than your player character (very unlike all the other bosses.) There stands an elderly husk in this dark dimly lit crumbling room in a long forgotten Colosseum, Gwyn, a character that's been hyped up the whole way through the game only now he's a frail and unimposing boss compared to the other bosses in Dark Souls, then finally that music kicks in... it makes you wonder if what you're doing, if what Gwyn has done, if anything at all is "right" in this world. I actually cried the first time I fought Gwyn, to this day I still have no idea why I cried. I was just overcome with emotion for some reason, Gwyn caught me so off guard, I felt genuinely moved and saddened by what the game was making me do and what the implications of this fight could be. Somehow, it was just a beautifully tragic encounter, despite Gwyn being a massive pushover, or rather maybe _because_ he is a massive pushover, it was one of the most memorable and lasting experiences I've had in a video game bar none.
That "barely bigger than your character" stomped huge dragons. YOU stomped huge monsters. So size doesn't matter
@@3starperfectdeer233 In this case size does indeed matter since it makes him look much less intimidating than other bosses. Paired with his old age and sad music it’s pretty simple to understand that he is a much weaker threat than he once was.
@@3starperfectdeer233Hardcore missing the point.
Kinda simelar to vendrick from ds2 lol
But vendrick is now as fun to fight...
Dragons: *simply exist*
Dark souls: THEN ALOMG CAME GWYN HE HURLED HIS THUNDERBOLT
No, came Seath and literally starts the war from shadows.
Hidetaka Miyazaki after this vid : Aah... Now I understand
I was shocked at how easy Gwyn was to defeat(I beat him first try) but it was fitting giving how he was just a husk.
I am struggling with him with my unga bunga 50 strength 11 vitality 40 endurance character. I mean, I’m also not parrying or using summons tho.
Side note: I beat Ornstein/Smough and the capra demon first try but this old man is annihilating me.
@@Watermelon-nh4sp he gave me trouble too, 40 endurance, 20 dexd, 40 str, and like base vit or something, he's pretty hard against a tanky character, draining stamina very quickly if you're blocking, had to learn how to parry to beat him
That's how I felt when I first fought Pinwheel, though getting to him was more difficult than the actual boss.
I was in the 30s for health dex and strength, it took me about an hour and twenty to beat him cause I didn’t realize I could parry him
I think that was the intention
They show you that he was the mightiest of the Gods, the one with the most powerful soul, a religion formed from his existence
And now, after the world went to shit, he can be dealt with like a common hollow
This God killed the immortal, used lightning as weapons and had children so powerful that each of them had their own religion now reduced to a husk, to the common hollow that used a broken sword as a weapon
Gwyn more like gWHEN will you LET ME HEAL SO I CAN WIN!
Parry all you like, you can't parry the feels..
You can parry Gwyn all you want but you CAN'T parry the emotions when PLIN PLIN PLON starts playing
Tragedy... that foolish God has caused so much suffering and agony, twisting and bending the world in unnatural ways just to prolong his selfish dream of the age of fire. It's not a tragedy, it's karma. Everything that happened to him and his allies was deserved
The only alternative was the age of dark which could be the end of all. Sacrificing himself to prolong the age of fire is a noble thing how do you think?
@@imranreiaz-wk9lv Nobody would've suffered in the age of dark like everyone has suffered in the prolonged age of fire. Age of Dark is the era of humanity, the natural course of history. It went like Dragons > Fire [Gods] and Dark [Humanity]. He selfishly tried to increase the time of his rule by "sacrificing himself".
@@TheBaguetteSpy please correct me I thought Gwyn was human so he prevented the age of dark(humanity) so he could stay the Lord of Cinder in the Age of fire. It would make sense if it wasn’t the fact that he was suffering during the age of fire no? That’s why he’s become so weak during the end of DS1?
@@TheBaguetteSpy I’m very new to souls games started DS2 about 3 weeks ago getting to learn the lore so do correct me please
@@imranreiaz-wk9lv Gwyn is a different race from human, all gods are. That's why his era is the age of fire. The age of darkness is the era of man, in the first game, humanity is an item of darkness that can be used to restore humanity [increasing health and fixing your appearance]. And in DS3 endings, age of dark ending is the ending of humanity. And yes, Gwyn did try to remain the Lord of Cinder by sacrificing himself, it was an extreme measure no doubt.
Love your videos mate. Keep up the good work!
I always save the parry as the final blow
it's a shame that parries make such an awesome fight trivial, definitely made Gwyn a lot less impactful for me on my first playthrough
also the whole keys being only white is because of the key the song is in
Then dont parry?
That was the point. It was to show that Gwen is a shadow of his former self in that fight. Weak. It’s a little depressing tbh
@@lomray6701 I've probably never seen anyone ever trying so hard not to get the main idea of this beautifully tragic boss. Your remarks on both the parrying and the white keys, you just add to this sad experience.
@@lomray6701 and why is it in that key? These things are decided, music is made by a person who thinks about it.
you've plinned your last plon
Great video man
I am late, but I have to say this. All the Dark Souls events could have been prevented if Gwyn didn't relink the First Flame. As heroic as he was during the war against the Arch Dragons, he feared that the Age of Dark would bring the destruction of everything HIS Age of Fire has brought; look what happened in both Dark Souls II and ESPECIALLY Dark Souls III?
All of which happen during the Fading of the Fire. Each game gives you lore how in between this times, when the Fire is fine, the kingdoms you visited were prosperous and life was good.
Do you know what the Age Of Fire brought?
Everything.
Yes, the linking was a temporary solution, but would you prefer we cut straight to the " feast"? Because that's what the Age Of Dark is. Feasting. And you know what's the main course.
@@alyseleem2692 the Gods?
@@efaristi9737 Dead. Scattered around the globe, or dead. Irithyllians, a race of humans with godlike features, are all that seems to be left by the end. The only exception was Gwyndolin, and, well...
@@alyseleem2692 I always thought they fled the world entirely since there is literally nowhere on this world where the Abyss can't follow them.
@@efaristi9737 They probably wished they could....
But even their descendants weren't safe. Irithyll's a ghost town now; the Silver Knights bleed black goo. The Pontiff Knights and Fire Witches are " harrowed spirits".
This place is dead. Anor Londo is dead.
Everybody's just...gone.
Dark souls' gift is the choice. Not the outcome.
I just last week learned to parry Gwyn, every other time I’ve played through DS1(probably like 6-7, and MANY TIMES for DS2-3) I never parried. But I recently played through Sekiro so I wanted to learn the Parry skill. And wow, I basically beat Gwyn and a lot of other FS bosses on hard mode!!😂😂
This is my favorite fight in the entire game.
If you really wanna heighten ur depression just TH-cam search 10 hours Gwynn theme raining in anor londo
In my opinion, the fact that Gwyn isn’t this extremely OP and way too strong Endboss makes him even more recognizable/ memorable. I don’t know why, but the fact that Gwyn is not very unlike us makes him so ….relatable in a weird way! I can also imagine gwyn standing for a player.
hello mr critical rants
A holy sword eroded by the Abyss. When Wolnir fell to the Abyss, he was gripped by a fear of true darkness, and pleaded to the gods for the first time.
This holy sword, together with three armlets stripped from the corpses of clerics, gave him some semblance of comfort
The fate of Wolnir is the fate of all humans in the age of Dark,When the fire finally fade they will beg for Gwyn help.Alas Gwyn and the flame is already gone… abandoned by the world and the people he tried to save
And the lack of cutscene is totally unrelated to running out of time and money towards the end of the development?
And yeah, just cast Iron Flesh and Flash Sweat and hack away at him... that's how I did it.
If Gwyn didn't link the flame the first time then the human race will not have a choice at all,They will have to helplessly watch as the age of Dark encroach upon them
One day fire will fade, and dark will become a curse. Men will be free from death, left to wander eternally. Dark will again be ours, and in our true shape, we can bury the false legends of yore. Only... is this our only choice? We are feeble vessels, with feebler souls. We would cast aside the prop of life, only to face greater hardship. The fire will fade, and the souls of old will reamerge. With Dark unshackled, a curse will be upon us. And men will take their true shape.
And the age of Dark doesn't look to be enjoyable for anybody but the Abyssal creatures
I say Gwyn approach were quite democratic,He put the agency into the hand
So what no video on aldia or nashandra?
I can’t say that Dark Souls 2 final bosses had as much of an impact on me as the final bosses of FromSoft’s other games. I honestly just don’t have that much to say about the Aldia or Nashandra fights. But I will cover other FromSoft bosses and topics in the future!
@@criticalrants At the 4:20 mark the music changes what’s the name of the song?
@@bigvick2429 A bit late but it's Great Grey Wolf Sif's OST
Lendário
To be fair, it's more of a "person facing the consequences of their actions" story rather a tragic story.
Gwyn came across a source of great power and immediately used it to overthrow and exterminate what was, at least to the player, a peaceful race of eternal dragons. He upset the balance and when he found out that he did so and that his Age of Fire and absolute control over the world would end, he literally sacrificed everything that made him Gwyn in a bid to keep power which ended up being pointless and the fire still starts to fade anyway.
Gwyn's greed made him ruin the entire world, he caused the hollowing, the ring knights and caused suffering for countless. Most of the world's issues in Dark Souls can be traced back for his undying need for power so he isn't as sympathetic as a lot of people make him out to be. He essentially caused the apocalypse to keep power.
No, it isn't. It's about how people who are facing their annihilation won't bow down to it. We see this at the beginning - the birth of the flame and Lord's souls was meant to bring the end to to the age of ancients. The dragons didn't bow down to the lords, they fought for their survival and stay the apex predator to be ultimately defeated.
I choose the dark ending because I, as an undead, benefit none from being a second class citizen to the lords. But I don't disagree with Gwyn and him trying to prolong the age of fire and his dynasty.
I think you mistaking fear for greed. If greed was really Gwyn motive then he would have sacrificed someone else than him to the Fire. It was not HIS power he sought to preserve since after offering himself to the fire, he gained nothing but suffering and hollowing. What he sought to preserve was his people for he knew that the Age of Dark would be their end just like the Age of Fire was the end of the Ancients Dragons.
So what he did is actually very tragic and noble. Noble because he sacrificed everything he was to get the Age of Fire going, in the hope to save his people. Tragic because it ought to nothing, the Fire will soon fade and feeding it undeads only buy a little time and erode the world a little more.
@@efaristi9737he does sacrifice more people than him. Over and over again in fact.
@@gravesidepoet5405 Doesn't change the fact he was the first offering to the fire
Gwyn means white in Welsh. Dunno if that's where the name came from. Pronunciation is right tbf
Only more tragic boss in the game is Sif
Yah I never felt sad about killing Gwyn. His easiness was unintentional, as in an interview one of the developers said that they regretted making gwyn parryable, as it made the fight too easy. Besides, I view him as a bad guy.
I’ll never forget a comment i read once on a video for gwyns ost: “this isn’t a triumph over a tyrant, this is a mercy kill”
Hard disagree
Final boss is the easiest right after the lava demon
❤️❤️
Jack-ass-all to do with the video title.
« From its unnaturally long duration »
Noooo ! The video started so well ><
It’s not the unnatural prolongation that provokes this decay, it’s literally the opposite, it’s the nearing of the end of the prolongation -_-
It’s literally said outright in the beginning, the flame is fading, there are only embers left, and the curse thus appears, and that’s reinforced throughout the game, not even Kaathe denies that, and for all this talk of « unnatural »... *How is it unnatural to prolong a fire by feeding it ?!!*
Seriously, trying to create an eternal flame, like the witch does, that’s unnatural, and that leads to the demons, abominable creatures that should’ve never seen the day, but feeding a fire to prolong its life, especially if all you’re doing is giving it back what it originally had (the souls that the lords took from the flame), how can you in any way call that unnatural ? It’s literally the opposite. Heck, if anything it’s a nice contrast with the witch : the witch tried to cheat the natural order, and was punished for it by suffering a punishment greater than pretty much anyone in the series, where not only she lost herself, but also her kingdom and children. Gwyn on the other hand decided to surrender himself to the natural order and bear all the sacrifices that had to be made, and therefore sacrifice himself to the flame.
And yes, the player will have to make the same sacrifice of course, there’s no way around that, there ain’t no free meal. As for wether it’s worth it or not... Yes ? That’s pretty obvious given that after Gwyn’s departure, many kingdoms could flourish until the flame faded again, and we learn in DS2 and DS3 that plenty other kingdoms saw the day after each re-kindling, proving that it was definitely worth it.
Also, abandoning the flame isn’t simply « not having a guarantee that the world will heal », it’s « being almost guaranteed that the world is doomed », because as far as DS1 is concerned, once the fire goes out it’s the end, people will change into hollows, the number of humanities will slowly diminish, everyone will either lose his mind to the curse or lose his heart by preying on others to keep their sanity a little while longer, etc.
And DS2 and DS3 confirm that, if you don’t kindle the flame the world turns to shit very fast, and the fire has to have been linked enough times before the lords of cinders can leave the embers that will be the hope when the fire fully runs out.
« there is no good or bad choice »
At best that was the goal, but if that was the goal, it was miserably failed, because the developers gave an overwhelming amount of evidence that the age of fire was the way to go, and the age of dark a calamity to avoid at all cost.
But at least I’m happy that someone is reminding people of how awesome Gwyn’s fight is parry-less, rather than just going « hur dur Gwyn easy just parry » XD
Edit : also nice to see someone reminding people why Gwyn was great, #makeLordranGreatAgain, rather than just going on and on about unverified nonsense on what he could’ve done or not done for reasons the series never makes clear and that therefore we’d have a hard time judging him on, that was pretty sweet.
@kipskip_ I’d like to make a detailed response to everything I disagree with in your answers, because there is a lot, but I don’t have the time right now and I’m pretty frustrated by your endless assertions with no justification, or selective use of evidence, like when you ignore the fact that Oscar literally has an opposite dialogue to the one you mentioned where he says you fell for Kaathe’s lies.
Instead, I’ll ask you a question :
Why did Gwyn sacrifice himself+humans, rater than just humans ?
@kipskip_ « I believe the branding of the undead »
I don’t care, answer the question, why would Gwyn kill himself when his plan is, according to you, to kill humans to fuel the flame.
« Gwyn kindled himself atleast a thousand years ago »
Yes, and ?
If his plan was to have humans do the job for him, he didn’t need to kindle the flame himself at all.
So why did he do it ?
« humans were literally of dark themselves »
No.
« I don’t think he knew of anway to harness their humanity for the flame »
So he isn’t the one responsible for the humans being sacrificed then, the other gods are, right ?
Also, how could he not have known, literally all you have to do is to give them enough souls and send them to the flame, how could he not figure that out ?
« he rather flooded new londo »
No, that happened after Gwyn sacrificed himself.
By the way, the flooding happened because the darkwraiths were horrible PoS and the cancer known as the abyss was spreading, not because they didn’t care about humans.
« It always struck me as odd in a game with excellent scripting »
Why ? He is royalty, and old, obviously making him speak differently and in a way that implies more education and age would make sense :|
« Isn’t it weird how one would create a fortress in which people would prove themselves worthy to enter your kingdom »
No, because we aren’t told that’s what happened, we know there is a fortress, we know there are traps there, and we know it’s a way to access Anor Londo, we know nothing of its original purpose, who created it, who assigned it its current purpose, etc.
« with the end goal of killing you? »
... Who is the « you » in that sentence ?
« Especially someone with an ego as big as Gwyn’s »
There you go again with the baseless assertions -_-
Prove that he had an ego please.
« Gwyn didn’t know how to sacrifice humans »
He couldn’t just ask any non humans then ? Like any of the black knights that marched with him in the fire without his order (the lord’s greatsword tells us he marched in the flame with this sword as his only companion, which means the BK didn’t follow him because he ordered them).
Or, I don’t know, just even try to sacrifice one human ? How come he knew how to sacrifice himself, but not how to sacrifice humans exactly ?
« waged war on them in Oolacile »
No he didn’t, that happened after he died, as we know from the presence of pyromancies, an art that quelana only taught to humans a mere handful of centuries ago by her own admission.
I’m really annoyed because that’s stuff you should know, especially considering how matter of factly you speak about things.
« He flooded new londo along-side the four kings »
No he didn’t, the sealers if Londo did, and not only are there no references at all anywhere ever to even remotely imply that Gwyn gave the order, but Frampt outright tells us that « since » Gwyn’s departure some of bearers of great souls have turned to evil.
His dialogue is that some don’t have a use for it, and some have turned to evil, I can see how the former applies to Nito (his soul says that he sacrificed most of it to death, meaning he should be nearing his own death, meaning he doesn’t have a use for his soul for long), or to the witch (she transformed into the bed of chaos, she has no sentience that we know of anymore, her own daughter thinks that she is just stuck in the torment of being a monster, etc), but it obviously doesn’t apply to the four kings or Seath.
And it doesn’t matter that you think the four kings weren’t evil, if that’s what you think, what matters is that as per frampt’s word whatever the four kings did that lead to the sealing of new londo, it happened after Gwyn burned himself.
« it’s clear his kindling was still powerful enough to last another thousand ears at the very least »
I’m not entirely sure what you mean by that, do you mean he had confidence that what was left of his soul (after he gave it to people that include the four kings, maybe he shouldn’t have trusted these humans after all) was enough to kindle the bonfire ?
@@nathanjora7627 humanity isn't strong enough by itself to keep the flame going for very long. He had to sacrifice himself too, because his soul was strong enough to keep it going for a long time. For gwyn, it wasn't about wanting to hold onto his power, it was about keeping his age of fire going because he was afraid of the dark. There is zero actual evidence that the "age of dark" is an end of the world scenario, all we have to go on for that is that gwyn was afraid of the dark and the power the wielders of the dark soul "humans" possessed. The current situation of undead going hollow was caused by gwyn attempting to seal the soul of man to limit the dark soul, causing it to lash out. We see this first hand with manus. He wasn't evil, he lost his mind due to the dark soul lashing out from being restrained, creating the abyss that warped everything around it as it continued to lash out. Had gwyn not attempted to seal the soul of man, mankind would have been able to rely on their humanity for their sense of self, but since it was sealed away, they came to rely on their white souls for that, and the weakening of the seal with the fading of the fire allows their restrained humanity to lash out and consume the white soul, leading to hollowing.
All that being said, he did mess up by trying to go against the nature of the world, and because he did, he's forever also doomed mankind to have to keep it up since they are directly linked to the source of the problem now.
@@unnamed_protagonist"humanity isn't strong enough by itself to keep the flame going for very long"
Which doesn't really matter anyway, since 1) Gwyn can and has given his soul away, so he could've just given it to a human, 2) we know that even if a human doesn't originally possess the strength to do it, acquiring the strength by taking someone else's soul works as well, since that's literally what DS1's plot is.
Oh by the way : it's false.
Lorewise the ivory king, the old iron king, the king of shulva, and vendrick are all monarchs candidate that could've linked the first flame, and they were all humans, not to mention the abyss watchers, or ludleth, or the fact that as far as we know most people who linked the fire were humans.
"He had to sacrifice himself too, because his soul was strong enough to keep it going for a long time."
That's true, but it also overlooks a really important element : it wasn't "his soul" that was strong enough, it was "what was left of his soul after giving *most* of it away".
Meaning that only a relatively small fraction of his soul was enough to keep the fire lit for a thousand years.
So Gwyn could've just kept most of his soul for himself and gave only the small fragment he actually used to link the fire to a human or black knight.
"There is zero actual evidence that the "age of dark" is an end of the world scenario"
There is though, we have vendrick and aldia, who both talk about the dark ending as a bad ending, even if neither like the flame either, Vendrick : "One day, fire will fade, and Dark will become a curse.
Men will be free from death, left to wander eternally. Dark will again be ours, and in our true shape… We can bury the false legends of yore… Only…
Is this our only choice?", or Aldia "There is no path.
Beyond the scope of light, *beyond the reach of Dark…* …what could possibly await us ?", we have DS3's firekeeper "The eyes show a world without fire, a vast stretch of darkness. But 'tis different to what is seen when stripped of vision."
Oh, I wonder what is the difference, maybe the eyes reveal that this vast stretch of darkness ain't so bad after all, so what's the rest of her dialogue ? "In the far distance, *I sense the presence of tiny flames* " Oh... Well it's not saying that the dark is good, but at least it's saying that the firelinking wasn't necessary, right ? "Like precious embers, *left to us by past Lords, linkers of the fire* " Oh... So the flames that make the darkness different from what she sees without visions are the ones left by linkers of the fire, meaning without them it would just have been a stretch of darkness... Well... Eh... No evidence you said ?
Give it a rest, of course we have actual evidence -_-
And that's not mentioning stuff like the locust preacher's dialogue that tells you to "let the feast begin".
"all we have to go on for that is that gwyn was afraid of the dark"
Oh, you mean the guy that "came" from the dark (see DS1's intro, "and from the dark they came" referring to the lords, the japanese says "born of", making it even clearer), knew the original holder of the dark soul, fought alongside the first men, was allied with the pygmy kings/had the pygmy kings as vassal, and was himself the master of the opposite soul, and the "ultimate" soul, was afraid of the dark... And that doesn't count as evidence how ?
If one of the guys that should know most about the dark tells you it'll hurt you, and actually backs that up with actions such as sacrificing himself, thus showing that he wasn't merely fearing for his personal wellbeing or position, maybe it's a good idea to listen to him.
"and the power the wielders of the dark soul"
Oh, yeah, what's that power again ? I think Kaathe talks about it "if you wish, I shall grant the art of Lifedrain,
the legendary power of the Dark Lord."
Oh, so the power of the wielders of the dark soul is lifedrain... *I really can't imagine why Gwyn wouldn't have wanted that around* XD
"The current situation of undead going hollow was caused by gwyn attempting to seal the soul of man to limit the dark soul"
No, again read Vendrick's dialogue "One day, fire will fade, and *Dark will become a curse.*
Men will be free from death, left to wander eternally."
"We see this first hand with manus."
No we don't, Manus didn't become the father/master of the abyss because he was constrained, his humanity went wild because of some unknown thing the oolacilian did to him that could literally just have been to unearth him and steal his pendant.
"creating the abyss that warped everything around it"
Manus explicitly did not create the abyss, those were around even in the time of the war against the dragons "Straight sword wielded by the Ringed Knights.The arms of early men were forged in the Abyss"
"the weakening of the seal with the fading of the fire allows their restrained humanity to lash out and consume the white soul, leading to hollowing."
Except it's not just the white soul it consumes, it's also the humanity "Death triggers the Darksign, which returns its bearer to the last bonfire rested at, but at the cost of all humanity and souls."
Also you forget the dark sigil, which is something humans, pro kaathe humans, spread around, and what is it again ? "A black gaping hole in the flesh *that resembles the brand of an Undead.*
", and let's not forget that having this causes/permits hollowing.
Meaning you're demonstrably wrong, and that you have no evidence gwyn was the one to do anything here, especially in terms of causing hollowing.
"he did mess up by trying to go against the nature of the world"
Eh, no ?
First because the natural order was going to f*ck everyone over, by turning humans into hollows, and making the land frigid and dark, and second because he didn't go against any natural order, and yes I know what Kaathe says to us, but at no point does he prove that, and there is no reason to believe that giving fuel to a fire actually messes up the natural order.
"because he did, he's forever also doomed mankind to have to keep it up since they are directly linked to the source of the problem now."
That is most definitely proven wrong by Vendrick's dialogue, and even Aldia's to an extent, since he seems to be saying that humans owe the very existence of their normal lives, the lives where they can think, fall in love, etc, to gwyn, and that it's something illusory, meaning the absence of all that (kinda like when you're hollow, wink wink, nudge nudge) would be the base state.
Not saying that's definitely what he implies because his dialogues are a bit of a mess, but Vendrick alone is enough to disprove that.
... Sorry for the length of the answer, I hope you won't take it to heart >
@@nathanjora7627 while i will admit that you do make a few good points, i do have some issues.
Gwyn explicitly sealed the power of the dark soul. You think it's a coincidence that the darksign is a literal ring of fire around a black hole, you know, exactly like the seal he put on the weapon and armor forged in the abyss during the war with the dragons. If you say that the dark sign is what returns undead to bonfires without souls or humanity, then it's explicitly gwyns fault that hollowing occurs.
Look, I'm not saying Gwyn did any of what he did maliciously ( though he did put human lower at every possible turn, like scrubbing their innvolvement in the dragon war, then giving them a city as far away as physically possible after sealing their power), but in the end, he's just a guy who found the light soul, what right does he have to decide how the world should be. He had his time, it was humanities turn, then when their time was up the fire would spark to life again just like it did the first time. It's unnatural because it wasn't nature that fed the fire. It was a scared man.