23:36 I disagree. When Joel's daughter died, he never went on a revenge quest against the military to find out who gave the order that got Sarah killed. He never even wanted to join the fireflies, which were the only group that could help him do that. Revenge was never something he believed in. The only time we see him enact dedicated acts of violence is when he wants to protect the people he cares about.
@@johngrizis Sure, but let me push back on this with context. Although that's a debatable point Neil Druckmann himself also points out this game is all about "universal hate" which is a direct quote. If Ellie died with a golf club by Abby and Joel was the one pinned down on the ground, thats different than a supervisor out there giving an order to a random soldier to shoot to kill 2 civilians If Joel was pinned down there, just as Tommy did, he would go after those motherfckers. Just as we all did. Him being motivated by a desire to protect (Ellie) is no longer possible as Ellie herself was murdered in this scenerio. Going back to drinking with a nihilistic worldview again (his time with Tess) is a real possibility. So while I agree that Joel is not motivated by hatred to the degree he is motivated by a desire to protect, that doesnt mean he wouldnt given the new context tLou2 greets us with . Even Tommy who represented hope with the fireflies had to "finish it" as they say. Ellie herself who represented hope similarly in part 1 turned into a monster in part 2. I can assure you that Joel wouldnt be that calm if the roles were reversed. This isnt the same situation with the soldier and Sarah. The context matters
@@johngrizis if the roles were reversed and it was Tommy who was hit with the golf club, I can more easily buy into the idea that Joel would not have risked his life as Ellie is still alive and he would think of her safety as well. But not if Ellie was the one. He would have nothing to live for at this point and would take the same path all of us did in the game. Even if he didn't, he'd desperately want to go after the grief ended
@@Ontos99 Tommy went to Seattle to try to protect Ellie from going down that path. If it wasn't for Ellie he wouldn't have gone after them, that's why he argues against it. It's not that Maria was speaking for him, it's that he has a family and he doesn't want to throw it away for revenge. But when Ellie told him she was leaving with or without him, that's when he decides to go on his own to "finish it" so that Ellie doesn't have to. Obviously he underestimated her desire to go and overestimated Maria's willingness to stop Ellie from going. But when Joel died he felt that he was the one responsible for Ellie now, and that would mean protecting her from going down this path of revenge by doing it himself. Anyway that was a bit long winded but regarding what he said about Joel, he also didn't think that Joel would get revenge if it was Ellie or Tommy that got killed. Now it's not clear why he thinks that, but Tommy knew Joel better than anyone, so him saying that isn't something to just brush off.
@@johngrizis Tommy himself at the beginning of the game has nothing to do with who we see at the end urging Ellie to take revenge and risk her life. He now represented a highly nihilistic worldview drawing a clear contrast to his firefly life Tommy surely knows his brother well but trauma changes people nonetheless. Just as how he changed, Joel might have too after the scene of Ellie's face getting punched with Abby's golf club if you will. Seeing that in your mind's eye IS going to motivate you on a quest for vengeance. You can argue Joel would somehow recover from it but seeing both Tommy and Ellie lose themselves in this game, I find it unrealistic. It is possible but it would ask quite a bit of psychological work on Joel's part. Someone who has violent tendencies seeing how he directly pushes Seth even at the party. How exactly Joel would be influenced seeing Ellie in that circumstance is a hard question to answer. Depends on Joel's coping mechanisms which I can't know with high accuracy unless I've talked with Neil to get some more information on Joel's mental state in later stages of his life.
@@Ontos99 I think Neil said in the director's commentary of The Last of Us Part 2 Remastered, that he doesn't think Joel would go for revenge either, during that scene with Ellie and Tommy at the beginning. I personally agree with that for the reasons I mentioned but I could also see how he would revert back to his old ways because he would have nothing to lose, so it's definitely up for interpretation.
"Yeah, it's just, I don't think I can ever forgive you for that... but I would like to try." Ellie Williams. One of my favorite video game moments EVER
@@lightningmonky7674 For me, it was Joel on the verge of tears responding with “….I’d like that.” I was alone in my living room, in the middle of the night. And when he uttered that response, I didn’t sob. My eyes just silently flowed tears down my face with zero resistance from me. And those tears continued to flow as I sat there frozen in place, up until the moment the credits finished rolling. I was in emotional shock for the next several days. When my wife finally played both games a couple of years later, and she eventually reached this very same part, she cried SO HARD, that she had to shut herself in the bathroom for 10-15 minutes. When she came out of the bathroom, it still took her another twenty minutes of crying so hard that she literally couldn’t speak through the tears. And even after that, when she was finally able to speak in a very broken manner, it took her another thirty minutes before she could quit crying completely. When my best friend finished the game, he immediately called me up and was trying to form the words to express himself, but all he could get out through the tears was “that… that ending man… I mean… I just…. I mean….” This game is truly something special. To people like Ontos, and my best friend, and my wife, this was more than just a story. It was a perfectly crafted narrative experience. Not everyone has to feel the same way, but people like us will defend this game from any biased/unfair criticism to our dying day.
1:57:35 " ellie wasnt killing abby anymore, she was killing joel " brotha that hit me like a truck, i have never thought bout it that way. great analysis
Took me a few days to watch this, but holy hell great work brother! There's so many correlations between the darkness of humanity's actions when pushed to the brink of desperation within The Last of Us II and also Xenoblade 3, which you made clear with that famous quote from Z 😉 Also the whole concept of vengeance really reminds me of the revenge plot found within the original Xenoblade as well. Shulk was so determined to satisfy his rage by destroying the Mechon, only to eventually question the morality of his actions right before the 'final blow'. This can be clearly seen as you've explained with Ellie's emotional state towards Abby after Joel's death. Definitely some brilliant story-writing brought to light, and also an excellent analysis and breakdown of the themes within The Last of Us II. Keen for the next video my dude! 🔥
@@uppernimbus only a true Xeno fan could catch that Z reference! Shulk stopping himself and Ellie following on his lead is a brilliant insight. They both experienced loss but decided to hold onto their humanity still. Thats pneuma's super ego right there This was a very hard video to make but definitely satisfied with it. Im really happy you liked it Uppernimbus.
Just finished your essay. It was absolutely phenomenal. You touched on so much and there are so many examples of point you made I loved but one was when you commented on the criticism that they are forcing us to like Abby ( 58:12) but in reality that’s just who she is. A person who cares about her family and community just like ellie just like everyone. Abby is no demon and no saint!
Honestly the main populace’s understanding of Neil Druckmann has been reduced to “woke jew” since TLOU2, technically accurate, but certainly not in the pejorative sense. Neil Druckmann is to me one of the most talented performance directors and writers of our time, almost NO ONE is able to convey so much with so little as he does. His games have dialogue that puts virtually all others to shame.
Yeah. How many AAA-quality games have we played that made us feel such extreme emotions in 25 hours? Neil Druckmann did something very special here. And I hope these 2 hours are enough to convey that.
Yeah, I realize the more I play it and watch videos that analyze the game, the more I get a deeper appreciation for it. I already loved it on the first playthrough, but someone had introduced the idea of the Rat King as an amalgamation of Abby's trauma and her combat with it is as much a fight with herself. That the Rat King being found in the trauma ward is a metaphor for what happens when we lock away trauma, not properly dealing with it and letting it faster. I found that actually really fascinating. I actually find it unfortunate that there's people who are dedicated to hating the game mostly because of Joel dying and having to play as Abby. I thought it was such a well put together game and story.
Or it could be that it's not actually didactic and Neil Druckmann is a deeply incompetent failed comic author with a chip on his shoulder that his rejected revenge plot from Uncharted 2 kept getting sandbagged. But if that was the case, people would look really stupid for thinking it was smarter than it was, wouldn't they?
@@crazyinsane500 it was rather filled with a lot intended to teach lessons and even he brought that up before. So it's definitely didactic, the main issue is whether people actually pay attention and are open to it or openly resist any actual lessons. Just as the first game asks you, "would you kill for a loved one to keep them safe at all costs, even the world?". This game asked the question of is revenge at all costs worth it, and gave you a clear answer of "no" it was not worth it for Abby or Ellie.
@@eddwincedeno5387 That's not only badly thought out, that's objectively wrong by the text of the game. It is *exclusively* Ellie who suffers the consequences of revenge. Abby herself makes her own problems by choosing to constantly betray people she's known for years at the drop of a hat. Worse yet, Abby didn't suffer anything for her pursuit of revenge, her life was improved and it's only by not going scorched Earth that things go wrong. She goes from being able to go on nature walks, eating burritos, bulking out at the gym, and being given permission to go on cross-country revenge vacations to finally living in the world of The Last of Us where *nobody* had those benefits. And that's not a consequence, *that's the status quo for anyone who isn't Abby.* But there is a better idea of what the author's intended message could be that *can* be applied to both protagonists: That some people are entitled to harm others, and their victims are obligated to not pursue justice or stop their aggressors. Which is *exactly* something Neil Druckmann has personal experiences with, given he protected his sexual predator best friend, Robert Cogburn, by firing Cogburn's victims for going to HR.
@@CrackedJust1n Thanks man. It was very hard to make in terms of writing editing and narrating. Glad you enjoyed it. I wanted Neil to get the analysis he deserved after all those years.
"The only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won't let go of life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they're not punishing you, he said. They're freeing your soul…. If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.” Sorry I didn’t share this with you sooner Ontos. But that opening with the birds (as many times as I’ve watched that scene) just made this line pop into my head. Surprisingly I’ve never connected these two things together before just now. Just started. Be prepared for a million more comments
@@Memnoch_the_Devil oof that first paragraph fits so well with Ellie at the farm. The memories and attachments creating tangible anguish not the events outside. Beautiful words. Thanks for sharing
@@Ontos99 TLOU2 story is so fatiguing that I need to watch this in parts. 40 minutes in a your analysis is making me feel what I felt when I first played the game. Great work so far
@@JackisaMimic Yeah. I've learned you didnt replay the game ever since your first playthrough. It is totally fine. Take it slowly. Glad you are enjoying it. Neil is not f*cking around for sure. The tension, sadness and brutality in this game are on a different level.
@@JackisaMimicI figured you’d have a hell of a time getting through this… lol (No disrespect btw Jack. I just genuinely love how emotionally impactful this game is to so many people)
Man I can't wait for Druckmann's next game, where he'll depict Palestinians as aliens and completely misunderstand the conflict for some "mur two state solution" message
Lol ppl learn nothing, media literacy is in the gutter if you assume it's all black and white. There's plenty of criticism and sneak dissing for everyone, (religious fanatics can be found in every belief, just look at the IDF and Zionism) and Neil is very aware of this .
Literally bro, this is why i think that the leaks are real. Druckman’s birth in Israel makes sense with what the leaks of the story seem to be. Honestly i hope it does not turn out too bad, but i don’t want a game where i am forced political ideology’s down my throat. I am worried, and i still believe that they should have made tlou 3 before. Having this new game before was a terrible idea in terms of marketing imo
Thank you so much. I loved your essay on tLou part 2. I can only hope this could live up to that. I've spent more time on this video than I've on any other and I'm very satisfied with it. Looking forward to making more and also excited to see more from you as well
@@NonfictionGamer dude, I freaking LOVED your video on TLOU2. So profoundly emotional as well as unique. I shared with quite a few people, including a couple of friends struggling with their own issues. Awesome to see you commenting on Ontos’s video here!
We let you live and you wasted it is kind of the theme of part two. Maaaaaaaaybe... We'll have to see part 3 first. But damn if it doesn't reflect real life.
if spoilers are not a concern, watch a short tLou part 1 retrospective video and then come here to continue But of course I recommend to play both of them if possible. Up to you
One of the things a sequel needs to do is honor and respect the original. This isnt a sequel, it's fan fiction. It wants to create something different almost counter to the poignant message of the original. This is just last of us in name only and not good writing.
It actually does a good job of carrying on from the last game. Especially as the closing scene has Ellie asking the question that haunts their relationship. It sets up the early tension between the two early on in the game and she always stated in the first game she had so many questions for the fireflies, and she felt Joel had taken a lot away from her especially when she found out what he did. Killing Joel doesn't disrespect the original, it just gives a character consequences for actions. There's no way a person in the world of tlou kills a bunch of people and gets away with it. As we've seen with people like David, actions always catch up.
@@Ontos99 Well for one, when *everyone* involved with production of TLOU1 says *don't make it a revenge story,* maybe they had a point? Seems pretty outright disrespectful to disregard the wishes of *everyone* who rejected that original pitch. Boy howdy, it sure would prove this was just bad fanfiction by someone who deeply hated the source material if it had it's roots in a bunch of rejected pitches the author knows would never have gotten greenlit otherwise. I mean, it's not like we've known this for nearly a decade. If we did, then it would be *very* dishonest to make a 2 hour video and *never* broach that topic.
The texture of your voice, your delivery and the script you’ve written. This is like a beautifully constructed song. I’m still watching. But I needed to write this now.
Since the video is titled the way it is, I have to say that I really hate how Neil became the center of all of this discourse. Not only does this minimise the work that hundreds of other people put into this game, but it reduces the conversation to something meaningless and unproductive. Sure, he co-wrote and directed this story that a lot of people hate, but he also wrote and directed the first game, and back then I didn't see anyone praising him specifically for creating the story that everyone loved. When everyone loved The Last of Us, it was just a Naughty Dog game, but when everyone hated The Last of Us Part II, it was a Neil Druckmann game. So if you make a story that everyone unanimously likes, you'll be granted the mercy of no one knowing who you are, but if you make something controversial, then your name gets put on blast for all the wrong reasons. People just want someone to blame, and the cope from some haters is so immense that I frequently see false narratives trying to rewrite history and pretend that it wasn't actually Neil who wrote the story of the first game, because they just can't fathom the idea that this thing they hate was made by the same person who made something they loved.
People want to believe whatever is convenient to reaffirm their beliefs or dispositions. They don't particularly care about understanding which is actually 'the' critique of 100s of people's work here who put their hearts and souls into maybe THE hardest perspective change a video game asks you to do. No wonder most people are so resistant to it. It is counter intuitive to our primitive urges, after all. For most people, beyond their loved ones, the rest of humanity pales in comparison. Neil Druckmann says 'Look at that feeling. Because other people are also feeling that and when you hurt them, they might lash out just as you want to.' To prevent the cycle, you need to do your best not to start it. Something Joel didn't do, unfortunately, at the end of the Last of us Part 1.
i really appreciate how you said that ellie wasn't killing abby in the end, she was killing joel. i feel that ellie's anger in that moment wasn't just anger at abby. it may have been superficially, in her mind, but unconsciously, it was more anger at joel. anger at her immunity, her despair. all those things were deeply connected at the center of a cloud hanging above her, and she hated the old bastard. it hurt, but she did. and the image she sees is joel in their last conversation. joel at his finest, warmest and most vulnerable. he looks at her with some sadness, like a hurt dog. she hated and hurt him, and he loved her. that's why i think ellie let go of abby. it wasn't a conscious moment of forgiveness, it was an emotional spasm caused by multiple psychological processes happening within her starved, weak and battered body during that moment. it really felt like she was choking joel. she felt shame over hurting the person who loved her the most and let go almost out of muscle memory. "go, just take him." she finally got over the one person who haunted her so deeply, and it sure wasn't abby. abby was a convenient outlet for all her deepest anxieties. and, of course, fantastic video. you're a true star and your work shows it. be well, brother.
I've intentionally left out the 2 fingers being lost and the Guitar scene at the end because the idea that Ellie 'lost' something in that duel is not something I want to emphasize. While Ellie made lots of mistakes in these 10 hours, stopping to kill 'Joel' was the only human thing she did. She climbed out of the pit of despair she dug for herself and reminded herself of her humanity by letting Abby and lev go. So Ellie 'gained' something precious at that moment. Her conscience. Something a lot more important than two fingers at least in my eyes.
well put. part 2 is often painted as being miserable, a pain simulator. those aren't aspects of the game that define it to me. the museum, the aquarium, ellie's mental clarity at the end. those are the scenes that stick out to me the most. it's a pandora's box situation. the game's predilection towards hope and love is very heartfelt, in my eyes.
I’m going to have to revisit this. I remember when I first played this game it took me a week after losing Joel’s daughter at the very beginning to bring myself to play again and I had been streaming it on twitch. The analysis of the first and second games is so fucking heavy from the social themes to the way we deal with trauma and pain and how that effects others and can cause more trauma and more pain. It’s viscerally painful. I’m ten minutes in. I’ll be back shortly and leave comments for every section I listen to. Your delivery is fucking incredible by the way 😭 it hurts listening.
I've watched this video twice now, and I still can't find the words to adequately express how brilliant and beautiful it was. But I'll try. Upon my first play-through, I immediately recognized TLOU2 as a master class in perspective-taking. But it's so much more than that, and you expounded upon every last detail of this perfectly crafted story. I think I wept at least 17 times while I was watching this video (in the best way possible). Thank you for sharing this, and I look forward to your future videos. Subscribed!
@@0451Free_Val I have to be honest here. I made this 2 hour video (the hardest video I've ever made probably) because I was frustrated with the existing "critiques" of tLou part 2. Constantly skipping over scenes and dialogues to pigeonhole the experience into simple shapes. Glossing over characters like Owen, Dina and yes even Mel let alone Abby and Lev. I'm very happy to hear the analysis dug out something deep within Neil Druckmann's magnum opus and made you emotionally moved. As the narrator, editor and script writer all, even I got emotional watching it again recently. I attribute it to Neil and his team at Naughty Dog who put so much time and effort into making this. Taking all the risks to teach us how beautiful video games as an art form can be both on a gameplay level and also narrative. Much love. And have a great day
Damn, Ontos. You f’n nailed it, my friend. I used to spend hours debating with people who would talk shit about TLOU2 (most of whom never even played past Joel’s death). However, in the future, instead of typing out some long argument listing all the reasons why they’re wrong using in-game evidence, from now on, I’m just going to share a link to this video. Because you’re right. They *don’t* get Neil Druckmann. And you have shown them all the ways that their biases have blinded them to the simple fact that one cannot hate Abby without also hating Ellie, and one cannot respect Joel without also respecting Abby…
Means a lot to me to hear you say that. Neil Druckmann deserves it. Especially after STILL getting so much hate over Intergalactic because of what happened in tLou part 2. You 'don't get' Neil Druckmann is neither pretentious nor clickbait for most of the player base and I'm glad you enjoyed this analysis. It was very hard to make and I poured my heart and soul into it.
@@miguelcondadoolivar5149 A good writing doesn't spoonfeed insights to you. Abby doesn't say 'I'm helping these 2 scar kids all of a sudden to remind myself of my humanity' Rather she says to Owen 'they are just kids. What happened to us?' followed up by 'maybe we stopped looking for the light' with Owen. Now that is strong writing. It is not actually cheesy. It is natural. 'Looking for the light' is something they both value in their community. It was Jerry's words to Abby. Similarly, the game's message is communicated but don't expect the game to scream it loudly to your face. That's why it is important to pay attention to the dialogues and even microexpressions of the actors. All that budget, money, motion capture are not just there for show. This is a 25 hour long movie right there that Neil Druckmann spent however hundreds of millions on. I think it is on the players to pay attention moreso than Neil doing something wrong not being more 'explicit' as they say. The more you say, the worse your writing becomes. (in general)
@@Ontos99 There is an enormous array of options between "spoonfeeding" the audience and creating a misunderstanding that enormous. Also, it's the writer's duty to adjust his work to the audience. If you are making a game for the mainstream blockbuster videogame audience (and, with that budget, that is the audience), especially if it's a sequel to a beloved game like TLoU 1, you have to make sure that the tonal shift and the writing are extremely clear, transparent, even. The level of understanding you are demanding can only be found in segments of already niche communities, like CRPG players (a genre much more based on nuance and complex morality than the more streamlined blockbuster game). Also, TLoU 1 didn't make its audiemce read into the lines like that, it was a simple and pretty clear-cut story. The expectations for the sequel would be similar to that, which means that the game was going to be seen from those lenses right from the start.
23:36 I disagree. When Joel's daughter died, he never went on a revenge quest against the military to find out who gave the order that got Sarah killed. He never even wanted to join the fireflies, which were the only group that could help him do that. Revenge was never something he believed in. The only time we see him enact dedicated acts of violence is when he wants to protect the people he cares about.
@@johngrizis Sure, but let me push back on this with context. Although that's a debatable point Neil Druckmann himself also points out this game is all about "universal hate" which is a direct quote.
If Ellie died with a golf club by Abby and Joel was the one pinned down on the ground, thats different than a supervisor out there giving an order to a random soldier to shoot to kill 2 civilians
If Joel was pinned down there, just as Tommy did, he would go after those motherfckers. Just as we all did.
Him being motivated by a desire to protect (Ellie) is no longer possible as Ellie herself was murdered in this scenerio.
Going back to drinking with a nihilistic worldview again (his time with Tess) is a real possibility.
So while I agree that Joel is not motivated by hatred to the degree he is motivated by a desire to protect, that doesnt mean he wouldnt given the new context tLou2 greets us with .
Even Tommy who represented hope with the fireflies had to "finish it" as they say. Ellie herself who represented hope similarly in part 1 turned into a monster in part 2.
I can assure you that Joel wouldnt be that calm if the roles were reversed. This isnt the same situation with the soldier and Sarah. The context matters
@@johngrizis if the roles were reversed and it was Tommy who was hit with the golf club, I can more easily buy into the idea that Joel would not have risked his life as Ellie is still alive and he would think of her safety as well.
But not if Ellie was the one. He would have nothing to live for at this point and would take the same path all of us did in the game. Even if he didn't, he'd desperately want to go after the grief ended
@@Ontos99 Tommy went to Seattle to try to protect Ellie from going down that path. If it wasn't for Ellie he wouldn't have gone after them, that's why he argues against it. It's not that Maria was speaking for him, it's that he has a family and he doesn't want to throw it away for revenge. But when Ellie told him she was leaving with or without him, that's when he decides to go on his own to "finish it" so that Ellie doesn't have to. Obviously he underestimated her desire to go and overestimated Maria's willingness to stop Ellie from going. But when Joel died he felt that he was the one responsible for Ellie now, and that would mean protecting her from going down this path of revenge by doing it himself.
Anyway that was a bit long winded but regarding what he said about Joel, he also didn't think that Joel would get revenge if it was Ellie or Tommy that got killed. Now it's not clear why he thinks that, but Tommy knew Joel better than anyone, so him saying that isn't something to just brush off.
@@johngrizis Tommy himself at the beginning of the game has nothing to do with who we see at the end urging Ellie to take revenge and risk her life. He now represented a highly nihilistic worldview drawing a clear contrast to his firefly life
Tommy surely knows his brother well but trauma changes people nonetheless. Just as how he changed, Joel might have too after the scene of Ellie's face getting punched with Abby's golf club if you will.
Seeing that in your mind's eye IS going to motivate you on a quest for vengeance. You can argue Joel would somehow recover from it but seeing both Tommy and Ellie lose themselves in this game, I find it unrealistic. It is possible but it would ask quite a bit of psychological work on Joel's part. Someone who has violent tendencies seeing how he directly pushes Seth even at the party.
How exactly Joel would be influenced seeing Ellie in that circumstance is a hard question to answer. Depends on Joel's coping mechanisms which I can't know with high accuracy unless I've talked with Neil to get some more information on Joel's mental state in later stages of his life.
@@Ontos99 I think Neil said in the director's commentary of The Last of Us Part 2 Remastered, that he doesn't think Joel would go for revenge either, during that scene with Ellie and Tommy at the beginning. I personally agree with that for the reasons I mentioned but I could also see how he would revert back to his old ways because he would have nothing to lose, so it's definitely up for interpretation.
"Yeah, it's just, I don't think I can ever forgive you for that... but I would like to try." Ellie Williams. One of my favorite video game moments EVER
@@lightningmonky7674 For me, it was Joel on the verge of tears responding with “….I’d like that.”
I was alone in my living room, in the middle of the night. And when he uttered that response, I didn’t sob. My eyes just silently flowed tears down my face with zero resistance from me. And those tears continued to flow as I sat there frozen in place, up until the moment the credits finished rolling. I was in emotional shock for the next several days.
When my wife finally played both games a couple of years later, and she eventually reached this very same part, she cried SO HARD, that she had to shut herself in the bathroom for 10-15 minutes. When she came out of the bathroom, it still took her another twenty minutes of crying so hard that she literally couldn’t speak through the tears. And even after that, when she was finally able to speak in a very broken manner, it took her another thirty minutes before she could quit crying completely.
When my best friend finished the game, he immediately called me up and was trying to form the words to express himself, but all he could get out through the tears was “that… that ending man… I mean… I just…. I mean….”
This game is truly something special. To people like Ontos, and my best friend, and my wife, this was more than just a story. It was a perfectly crafted narrative experience. Not everyone has to feel the same way, but people like us will defend this game from any biased/unfair criticism to our dying day.
1:34:20 and 1:40:55 Gosh, what wonderful Xenoblade 2 and 3 references!
A Xenoblade fan I see. Let me know your thoughts on my 'Philosophy of XC3' and Amalthus analysis up on the channel ;))
1:57:35 " ellie wasnt killing abby anymore, she was killing joel " brotha that hit me like a truck, i have never thought bout it that way. great analysis
@@Idk_bro12340 yeah that final section of the video was emotionally hard for me to write and narrate.
@@Ontos99 😔
@@Idk_bro12340 100%
Took me a few days to watch this, but holy hell great work brother! There's so many correlations between the darkness of humanity's actions when pushed to the brink of desperation within The Last of Us II and also Xenoblade 3, which you made clear with that famous quote from Z 😉 Also the whole concept of vengeance really reminds me of the revenge plot found within the original Xenoblade as well. Shulk was so determined to satisfy his rage by destroying the Mechon, only to eventually question the morality of his actions right before the 'final blow'. This can be clearly seen as you've explained with Ellie's emotional state towards Abby after Joel's death. Definitely some brilliant story-writing brought to light, and also an excellent analysis and breakdown of the themes within The Last of Us II. Keen for the next video my dude! 🔥
@@uppernimbus only a true Xeno fan could catch that Z reference! Shulk stopping himself and Ellie following on his lead is a brilliant insight. They both experienced loss but decided to hold onto their humanity still. Thats pneuma's super ego right there
This was a very hard video to make but definitely satisfied with it. Im really happy you liked it Uppernimbus.
@Ontos99 Loved it a lot! Always a pleasure listening to your insight of philosophical themes within video games 🙏
Just finished your essay. It was absolutely phenomenal. You touched on so much and there are so many examples of point you made I loved but one was when you commented on the criticism that they are forcing us to like Abby ( 58:12) but in reality that’s just who she is. A person who cares about her family and community just like ellie just like everyone. Abby is no demon and no saint!
I'm really happy you liked it bro. You did a phenomenal job with your own essay. I knew you'd enjoy this one. Cant wait for your new videos
She's boring.
Honestly the main populace’s understanding of Neil Druckmann has been reduced to “woke jew” since TLOU2, technically accurate, but certainly not in the pejorative sense.
Neil Druckmann is to me one of the most talented performance directors and writers of our time, almost NO ONE is able to convey so much with so little as he does. His games have dialogue that puts virtually all others to shame.
Yeah. How many AAA-quality games have we played that made us feel such extreme emotions in 25 hours?
Neil Druckmann did something very special here. And I hope these 2 hours are enough to convey that.
Yeah, I realize the more I play it and watch videos that analyze the game, the more I get a deeper appreciation for it. I already loved it on the first playthrough, but someone had introduced the idea of the Rat King as an amalgamation of Abby's trauma and her combat with it is as much a fight with herself. That the Rat King being found in the trauma ward is a metaphor for what happens when we lock away trauma, not properly dealing with it and letting it faster. I found that actually really fascinating. I actually find it unfortunate that there's people who are dedicated to hating the game mostly because of Joel dying and having to play as Abby. I thought it was such a well put together game and story.
Or it could be that it's not actually didactic and Neil Druckmann is a deeply incompetent failed comic author with a chip on his shoulder that his rejected revenge plot from Uncharted 2 kept getting sandbagged.
But if that was the case, people would look really stupid for thinking it was smarter than it was, wouldn't they?
@@crazyinsane500 it was rather filled with a lot intended to teach lessons and even he brought that up before. So it's definitely didactic, the main issue is whether people actually pay attention and are open to it or openly resist any actual lessons. Just as the first game asks you, "would you kill for a loved one to keep them safe at all costs, even the world?". This game asked the question of is revenge at all costs worth it, and gave you a clear answer of "no" it was not worth it for Abby or Ellie.
@@eddwincedeno5387 That's not only badly thought out, that's objectively wrong by the text of the game.
It is *exclusively* Ellie who suffers the consequences of revenge. Abby herself makes her own problems by choosing to constantly betray people she's known for years at the drop of a hat. Worse yet, Abby didn't suffer anything for her pursuit of revenge, her life was improved and it's only by not going scorched Earth that things go wrong. She goes from being able to go on nature walks, eating burritos, bulking out at the gym, and being given permission to go on cross-country revenge vacations to finally living in the world of The Last of Us where *nobody* had those benefits. And that's not a consequence, *that's the status quo for anyone who isn't Abby.*
But there is a better idea of what the author's intended message could be that *can* be applied to both protagonists: That some people are entitled to harm others, and their victims are obligated to not pursue justice or stop their aggressors.
Which is *exactly* something Neil Druckmann has personal experiences with, given he protected his sexual predator best friend, Robert Cogburn, by firing Cogburn's victims for going to HR.
22:59 Druckmann says right here, you are supposed to hate these people. It worked and people are still pissed off about it. 😂
@@YukonBloamie maybe it worked a little "too" well ;))
I want this video to blow up so bad! Such an incredible break down of the game, thank you for making this
@@CrackedJust1n Thanks man. It was very hard to make in terms of writing editing and narrating. Glad you enjoyed it.
I wanted Neil to get the analysis he deserved after all those years.
"The only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won't let go of life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they're not punishing you, he said. They're freeing your soul….
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.”
Sorry I didn’t share this with you sooner Ontos. But that opening with the birds (as many times as I’ve watched that scene) just made this line pop into my head. Surprisingly I’ve never connected these two things together before just now.
Just started. Be prepared for a million more comments
@@Memnoch_the_Devil oof that first paragraph fits so well with Ellie at the farm. The memories and attachments creating tangible anguish not the events outside. Beautiful words. Thanks for sharing
Alright, I’m going in. See you on the other side
Excited to hear your thoughts
@@Ontos99 TLOU2 story is so fatiguing that I need to watch this in parts. 40 minutes in a your analysis is making me feel what I felt when I first played the game.
Great work so far
@@JackisaMimic Yeah. I've learned you didnt replay the game ever since your first playthrough. It is totally fine. Take it slowly. Glad you are enjoying it. Neil is not f*cking around for sure. The tension, sadness and brutality in this game are on a different level.
@@JackisaMimicI figured you’d have a hell of a time getting through this… lol
(No disrespect btw Jack. I just genuinely love how emotionally impactful this game is to so many people)
Owen got a Q-Anon girlfriend and had a rough 2037.
Man I can't wait for Druckmann's next game, where he'll depict Palestinians as aliens and completely misunderstand the conflict for some "mur two state solution" message
who hurt you?
@@V0iD1SKD Who hurt me? What?
Lol ppl learn nothing, media literacy is in the gutter if you assume it's all black and white. There's plenty of criticism and sneak dissing for everyone, (religious fanatics can be found in every belief, just look at the IDF and Zionism) and Neil is very aware of this .
Literally bro, this is why i think that the leaks are real. Druckman’s birth in Israel makes sense with what the leaks of the story seem to be. Honestly i hope it does not turn out too bad, but i don’t want a game where i am forced political ideology’s down my throat. I am worried, and i still believe that they should have made tlou 3 before. Having this new game before was a terrible idea in terms of marketing imo
Wonderful video. Great editing on top of really insightful commentary. The many hours you must’ve spent on this were time well spent.
Thank you so much. I loved your essay on tLou part 2. I can only hope this could live up to that.
I've spent more time on this video than I've on any other and I'm very satisfied with it.
Looking forward to making more and also excited to see more from you as well
@@NonfictionGamer dude, I freaking LOVED your video on TLOU2. So profoundly emotional as well as unique. I shared with quite a few people, including a couple of friends struggling with their own issues.
Awesome to see you commenting on Ontos’s video here!
@@Memnoch_the_Devil This is the coolest comment I’ve ever received…thanks so much. You sound like an awesome friend to have.
awesome essay, deserves waaaay more views!
Thank you. Glad you enjoyed it
We let you live and you wasted it is kind of the theme of part two. Maaaaaaaaybe... We'll have to see part 3 first. But damn if it doesn't reflect real life.
I want to watch this but never played the last of us
if spoilers are not a concern, watch a short tLou part 1 retrospective video and then come here to continue
But of course I recommend to play both of them if possible. Up to you
One of the things a sequel needs to do is honor and respect the original. This isnt a sequel, it's fan fiction. It wants to create something different almost counter to the poignant message of the original. This is just last of us in name only and not good writing.
In what ways do you think it didn't honor the OG's themes or message?
It actually does a good job of carrying on from the last game. Especially as the closing scene has Ellie asking the question that haunts their relationship. It sets up the early tension between the two early on in the game and she always stated in the first game she had so many questions for the fireflies, and she felt Joel had taken a lot away from her especially when she found out what he did. Killing Joel doesn't disrespect the original, it just gives a character consequences for actions. There's no way a person in the world of tlou kills a bunch of people and gets away with it. As we've seen with people like David, actions always catch up.
I disagree completely. I loved part 2 even more than part 1.
@@lizardking796 Agreed
@@Ontos99 Well for one, when *everyone* involved with production of TLOU1 says *don't make it a revenge story,* maybe they had a point? Seems pretty outright disrespectful to disregard the wishes of *everyone* who rejected that original pitch.
Boy howdy, it sure would prove this was just bad fanfiction by someone who deeply hated the source material if it had it's roots in a bunch of rejected pitches the author knows would never have gotten greenlit otherwise.
I mean, it's not like we've known this for nearly a decade. If we did, then it would be *very* dishonest to make a 2 hour video and *never* broach that topic.
What is the back story of Abby's fear of heights?
The texture of your voice, your delivery and the script you’ve written. This is like a beautifully constructed song.
I’m still watching. But I needed to write this now.
Great comment, K8!!
Since the video is titled the way it is, I have to say that I really hate how Neil became the center of all of this discourse. Not only does this minimise the work that hundreds of other people put into this game, but it reduces the conversation to something meaningless and unproductive. Sure, he co-wrote and directed this story that a lot of people hate, but he also wrote and directed the first game, and back then I didn't see anyone praising him specifically for creating the story that everyone loved. When everyone loved The Last of Us, it was just a Naughty Dog game, but when everyone hated The Last of Us Part II, it was a Neil Druckmann game. So if you make a story that everyone unanimously likes, you'll be granted the mercy of no one knowing who you are, but if you make something controversial, then your name gets put on blast for all the wrong reasons. People just want someone to blame, and the cope from some haters is so immense that I frequently see false narratives trying to rewrite history and pretend that it wasn't actually Neil who wrote the story of the first game, because they just can't fathom the idea that this thing they hate was made by the same person who made something they loved.
People want to believe whatever is convenient to reaffirm their beliefs or dispositions. They don't particularly care about understanding which is actually 'the' critique of 100s of people's work here who put their hearts and souls into maybe THE hardest perspective change a video game asks you to do.
No wonder most people are so resistant to it. It is counter intuitive to our primitive urges, after all. For most people, beyond their loved ones, the rest of humanity pales in comparison.
Neil Druckmann says 'Look at that feeling. Because other people are also feeling that and when you hurt them, they might lash out just as you want to.'
To prevent the cycle, you need to do your best not to start it. Something Joel didn't do, unfortunately, at the end of the Last of us Part 1.
i really appreciate how you said that ellie wasn't killing abby in the end, she was killing joel. i feel that ellie's anger in that moment wasn't just anger at abby. it may have been superficially, in her mind, but unconsciously, it was more anger at joel. anger at her immunity, her despair. all those things were deeply connected at the center of a cloud hanging above her, and she hated the old bastard. it hurt, but she did.
and the image she sees is joel in their last conversation. joel at his finest, warmest and most vulnerable. he looks at her with some sadness, like a hurt dog. she hated and hurt him, and he loved her. that's why i think ellie let go of abby. it wasn't a conscious moment of forgiveness, it was an emotional spasm caused by multiple psychological processes happening within her starved, weak and battered body during that moment. it really felt like she was choking joel. she felt shame over hurting the person who loved her the most and let go almost out of muscle memory. "go, just take him." she finally got over the one person who haunted her so deeply, and it sure wasn't abby. abby was a convenient outlet for all her deepest anxieties.
and, of course, fantastic video. you're a true star and your work shows it. be well, brother.
I've intentionally left out the 2 fingers being lost and the Guitar scene at the end because the idea that Ellie 'lost' something in that duel is not something I want to emphasize.
While Ellie made lots of mistakes in these 10 hours, stopping to kill 'Joel' was the only human thing she did. She climbed out of the pit of despair she dug for herself and reminded herself of her humanity by letting Abby and lev go.
So Ellie 'gained' something precious at that moment. Her conscience. Something a lot more important than two fingers at least in my eyes.
well put. part 2 is often painted as being miserable, a pain simulator. those aren't aspects of the game that define it to me. the museum, the aquarium, ellie's mental clarity at the end. those are the scenes that stick out to me the most. it's a pandora's box situation. the game's predilection towards hope and love is very heartfelt, in my eyes.
I’m going to have to revisit this. I remember when I first played this game it took me a week after losing Joel’s daughter at the very beginning to bring myself to play again and I had been streaming it on twitch.
The analysis of the first and second games is so fucking heavy from the social themes to the way we deal with trauma and pain and how that effects others and can cause more trauma and more pain.
It’s viscerally painful.
I’m ten minutes in. I’ll be back shortly and leave comments for every section I listen to.
Your delivery is fucking incredible by the way 😭 it hurts listening.
@@K8theKind Of course. Please take your time and dont rush it, Kate. Excited to hear your thoughts in detail
I've watched this video twice now, and I still can't find the words to adequately express how brilliant and beautiful it was. But I'll try. Upon my first play-through, I immediately recognized TLOU2 as a master class in perspective-taking. But it's so much more than that, and you expounded upon every last detail of this perfectly crafted story. I think I wept at least 17 times while I was watching this video (in the best way possible). Thank you for sharing this, and I look forward to your future videos. Subscribed!
@@0451Free_Val I have to be honest here. I made this 2 hour video (the hardest video I've ever made probably) because I was frustrated with the existing "critiques" of tLou part 2. Constantly skipping over scenes and dialogues to pigeonhole the experience into simple shapes. Glossing over characters like Owen, Dina and yes even Mel let alone Abby and Lev.
I'm very happy to hear the analysis dug out something deep within Neil Druckmann's magnum opus and made you emotionally moved. As the narrator, editor and script writer all, even I got emotional watching it again recently.
I attribute it to Neil and his team at Naughty Dog who put so much time and effort into making this. Taking all the risks to teach us how beautiful video games as an art form can be both on a gameplay level and also narrative.
Much love. And have a great day
Incredible analysis dude!
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it, Wally!
Damn, Ontos. You f’n nailed it, my friend.
I used to spend hours debating with people who would talk shit about TLOU2 (most of whom never even played past Joel’s death). However, in the future, instead of typing out some long argument listing all the reasons why they’re wrong using in-game evidence, from now on, I’m just going to share a link to this video.
Because you’re right. They *don’t* get Neil Druckmann. And you have shown them all the ways that their biases have blinded them to the simple fact that one cannot hate Abby without also hating Ellie, and one cannot respect Joel without also respecting Abby…
Means a lot to me to hear you say that.
Neil Druckmann deserves it. Especially after STILL getting so much hate over Intergalactic because of what happened in tLou part 2.
You 'don't get' Neil Druckmann is neither pretentious nor clickbait for most of the player base and I'm glad you enjoyed this analysis.
It was very hard to make and I poured my heart and soul into it.
@ that you did, friend. That you did. And it shows. I hope you’re as proud of it as we are of you!!
If so many don't get it, shouldn't he bear quite a bit of blame for not communicating clearly enough?
@@miguelcondadoolivar5149 A good writing doesn't spoonfeed insights to you.
Abby doesn't say 'I'm helping these 2 scar kids all of a sudden to remind myself of my humanity'
Rather she says to Owen 'they are just kids. What happened to us?' followed up by 'maybe we stopped looking for the light' with Owen.
Now that is strong writing. It is not actually cheesy. It is natural. 'Looking for the light' is something they both value in their community. It was Jerry's words to Abby.
Similarly, the game's message is communicated but don't expect the game to scream it loudly to your face.
That's why it is important to pay attention to the dialogues and even microexpressions of the actors.
All that budget, money, motion capture are not just there for show. This is a 25 hour long movie right there that Neil Druckmann spent however hundreds of millions on.
I think it is on the players to pay attention moreso than Neil doing something wrong not being more 'explicit' as they say.
The more you say, the worse your writing becomes. (in general)
@@Ontos99 There is an enormous array of options between "spoonfeeding" the audience and creating a misunderstanding that enormous.
Also, it's the writer's duty to adjust his work to the audience. If you are making a game for the mainstream blockbuster videogame audience (and, with that budget, that is the audience), especially if it's a sequel to a beloved game like TLoU 1, you have to make sure that the tonal shift and the writing are extremely clear, transparent, even.
The level of understanding you are demanding can only be found in segments of already niche communities, like CRPG players (a genre much more based on nuance and complex morality than the more streamlined blockbuster game).
Also, TLoU 1 didn't make its audiemce read into the lines like that, it was a simple and pretty clear-cut story. The expectations for the sequel would be similar to that, which means that the game was going to be seen from those lenses right from the start.
LMAOOOOOOO
Unfortunate.