I mean it's not THAT bad...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มิ.ย. 2023
- SWAMP (shelf without a master point) is a climbing anchor that is sorta strong enough, kinda redundant and simple enough if you are just working with 2 bolts. Would you use this?
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I have recently learned this anchor on a climbing course in Poland. It's called "butterfly" here.
Love swamp anchors. I've used them quite a bit on multi pitch sport and ice routes over the past year.
In Italy that is called "balanced fixed anchor" and regularly used and taught in alpine club courses. Some people refer to it also as "english fixed anchor".
That's funny, in France people refer it as "à l'italienne", the italan way.
I'm literally never going to climb in my life but I love these videos!
haha same probably.
@@jort93z @BJB1229 go to a climbing gym yall, it’s good fun and there are many short walls without ropes called bouldering
Why set psychological barriers for yourself? Maybe you have your reasons and fair enough, but I see this brand of comment a lot, and I feel like in most cases it comes from a place of reflexive fear. Being ruled by your fear is no way to live, mastering your fear and using it to entertain yourself is one of the core human traits.
@@nathanwilson3185 I am not even interested in going climbing.
You know, like people learn how nukes work but never build one.
just cause you are interested in learning doesn't mean you wanna do it as well.
Hey, I think Nathan was just offering good and friendly advice. If you never tried climbing but you are interested in the subject then going to a climbing gym to try it out can be a lot of fun. Climbing is probably not what you think it is so I would recommend anyone to try it once in a safe environment.
I mean, here in Poland this is actually pretty common anchor. I tie it pretty often when points are close together and I have a free 60 cm in my rack
I regularly use a SWAMP if I need to get something up fast or with just shoulder length runners. Additionally, you can adjust the knot between the two points to equalize or adjust the direction of pull.
I like the simplicity of the SWAMP and have been waiting for it to show up in a load test. Thanks!
I use a SWAMP anchor anytime I need to get more from less equipment. Works great, super good enough and super easy to rig. I also like the girth hitch MP.
My climbing buddy who is my mentor loves using these. He likes to use 1 swamp anchor for the belay and a 2nd swamp anchor for tying in. It's pretty efficient
Been curious about this anchor for a while. Thanks for testing it.
Definitely another tool in the toolbox.
It is crazy watching the knots slip and compress under load. I like how you did all of those permutations of different scenarios which seemed quite thorough. Excellent video! 👍
I really need to send you guys some money, I get so much good information from this channel it’s really criminal that I haven’t yet!
Keep doing what you do!
Ryan, your channel is the best. That's all I have to say. Very thorough.
Hi,
At 3:41, it would have been interesting to let the sling 90% cut (10% uncut), to see how it reacts to a kind of "real sling failure"… Same with the drop tower…
Anyway, I used a lot this king of anchor on trad climbing (in France, i'm french). Mainly cause the capability for the node to roll as a "shock absorbing and self equalizing node". but now, i use a dynamic rope. Better for both (shock and equalize).
I used it at the Index Town Wall yesterday. Just learned it a few months ago. Great video (as usual)!
In Poland we call it butterfly-anchor as the two loops look a bit like the butterfly wings ;)
I use this often because it's soo easy to roll the knot to make it equalised rather than untying a overhang/fig eight masterpoint
It’s great for ice anchors. Put in a screw, measure one sling length down and 30ish degrees off plumb, put in second screw there minus a tiny bit, attach with this style of anchor.
Minimal, equalized anchor with screws safely separated.
In Poland we call it 'the butterfly anchor' since it creates kind of butterfly wings to which you clip your carabiner.
And it is one of the most commonly used anchors. The quad, on the other hand, personally I use it a lot, is not that popular at all. I think all of this derives from quite traditional and formalised climbing teaching system in Poland.
GET OUT OF MEH SWAMP
Yep, a guide taught me this anchor when rapping a 7 pitch route years ago. I use it often now.
Liked the subtle rope dressing correction. Very nice dad move. 👍
Sold me on switching to nylon when I use this type of anchor. Thanks Ryan!
It's been around for a long time. originally Repartitateur Vertaco (Vertaco equaliser) from the Vercours.
Knowing the swamp is a perfect compliment to the quad anchor. If you're sport climbing with a dyneema sling pre-rigged as a quad and its hard to loosen the knots to adjust for different bolted anchors you can sometimes just clip both sides of one knot to minimize your extension, like a swamp with an extra overhand not in use. Still full strength, still redundant, when used at the right time can be mostly equalized, and most importantly for sport climbing it should require no retying to your pre-rigged quad so it's fast!
love using this knot when im making anchors with 60cm slings
well, i guess since my acrophobia has lessened, and i've become a huge knot and splicing nerd with all my hammocking and sailboat rigging, i'm gonna have to get out and climb. and it only took watching a handful of your videos to convince me! xD
thanks for the great work!
I love this anchor when I only have a 60 and 120 sling to join 3 cams. I’ll use a swamp with the two close cams and then bring it all together with a bok with a 120 bringing the swamp and the third cam.
I like this anchor for protecting cruxy trad moves when the protection is questionable. Plug two pieces and equalize. You should retest with the knot not in the middle. Two different sized loops. Wings great in cracks
I first learned and started using this 30+ years ago. I called it the magic overhand (as opposed to the "magic X" which isn't redundant and can shock load an anchor). I think SWAMP knot is a little misleading because you still have a master point where you can clip in multiple carabiners. With a girth hitch, the carabiner or rap ring becomes the master point which is fine, but it uses one more piece of gear.
I've never used a SWAMP anchor. I think I'll give it a go next time I'm out there. As long as my Sharpie middle mark on my rope stays super good enough.
Haha
I use them a lot on sport. Primary advantage is easy to set when the anchors are different heights, but I'm using the girth-x a lot more too.
can you create a shock load failure? put some 1-3mm cord for you "cam" so it loads and releases.
I like the nylon version. With dyneema, I view it as "plan B". The knot may overheat in a fast scenario (there's no heat sink carabiner).
I have a test suggestion i think you guys haven't done yet. It's quite usual to get rope kinks either climbing sport or multipitch. What about doing some rope test with a kinked rope? Cheers!
Have you ever tested the belayer's hitch for strength? It takes less cord/ rope and is easier to untie after loading; and is easier to not screw up. And if you stop in the middle and clip the right spot; there is an easier way to tie the Munter Hitch than normally taught.
That knot still looks easier to open than my bag of bread when I'm hungry
Of very little utility to me as a climbing arborist, but i do use nylon and dyneema slings, so i guess theres always something to learn.
Even if there's no relevant knowledge to be gained, it's fun watching stuff get broke.
Pretty much only use these....dead simple and versatile....especially when you are shaking from hypothermia on a ledge in a nasty storm with gloves and and just need to move as fast as possible.
Id love to see tests with more of "shock" loads like in a fall, as compared to these that slowly and steadily increase in force.
You kinda glossed over this but is the knot you tested in the "s.w.a.m.p." anchor an overhand or a figure-8, and does it really matter for this type of load situation? Also... enough with the teasing already, when are you guys gonna kill a new tent with your pull-test rig?
I've always seen it with an overhand. Fig 8 would waste some length - not great with a 60cm sling.
@@serges5681 Got it, makes sense. I was surprised at the strength of this setup, it's definitely super good enough. Thanks for the quick and helpful reply.
I too was curious what knot was used for these tests. Looks kinda like an overhand.
When you cut one, was it when you already had a load on it?
Would have loved to see if it bares more load when cut with a figure 8 knot.
Eye think I got a knot fer this purpose, used it got commercial fishing but to move heavy things around, but I'll have to make a clippet for it, let me know if you want to test it? 1:09
We use it loads in the UK. Much simpler than all that quad nonsense you do over there 🤣
and in the UK it comes without an acronym...
in france, we call it relais italien, meaning, italian belay station
That is funny. In Italy we refer to it informally as "English anchor"
Would be super good to see how these knots that roll under constant pull perform under shock load. How’s your drop tower doing? 😎😎
Can you test carabiners for paramotor? (Austrialpin, Sup'Air, Zicral, Edelrid, Apco,...) 🙂
I wish there were some way to test how easy it is to cut a sling with falling rocks. I witnessed a 16mm sling get half-cut by 100 lbs of sharp limestone chunks falling from 20' above, in a pretty catastrophic event set off by a human. Fortunately I wasn't at the sling; if I had been, probably the cut sling would be a secondary worry.
Could you do a similar video in 5 minutes on the girth-hitch master point?
I'm happy with my quad using mammut magic slings. Any reason to change? The weight I suppose.
My klimbing monitor teach me this anchor. But whith a dynaloop, it's will be good to see this test with a dynaloop from beal.
I don't climb on bolts so I won't often rig this way, but I am happy to do it and use it sometimes myself. I didn't even realise this was unusual or needed testing, why don't more people just keep things simple like this. Simple = Good. The 9.51 for a failed anchor worries me (but most of my anchors probably won't hold for 9.51 anyway!!)
yeah seeing how not redundant the anchor is makes it seem less great. Obviously this is constant load and not shock like you'd expect in a fall, but definitely makes me want to see it on the tower.
Your spine wouldn't hold out 9 kN either so that's totally fine
Asking once more for you guys to test out the sheet bend properly. Maybe even just a short?
(You had done it incorrectly when tested)
Where did John get that aeesome shirt???
Any idea on what this would be like with polypropylene webbing and / or polyester tubular webbing?
Used this anchor when training on using the Ptezl Lezard when Petzl came out to certify us for rescues.
Maybe I missed something, but isn't the whole point of a SWAMP (rather than the Magic X, say) to provide a stronger connection to the anchor in the event one of the anchor points fails. 9.51 KN doesn't seem that great compared to a Magic X with a little shock load factored in.
0:33 "how much if any, does this know weaken this anchor"
0:49 "so that knot is clearly not having an impact"
well it broke on 20.6 but without the knot it would have been closer to double of 22, since it shares the load with 4 instead of the 2 strands that the 22kn is the rating for (check their link on the american death triangle and load sharing between strands).
so the knot definitely inpacted the strength...
but fair enough, those values are not relevant too much since 20+ is well enough anyway.
What if one sling cuts after rock fall?
Traction is not the only risk
usually it is hard - to untight the knot on a sling in such an anchor
For the algorithm 👍👍
If love to hear more about this 2:56
👏👏👏👏👏
It's redundant in the case of one of your two anchors wasn't 20kn after all (because the rock broke).
I use it rarely, usually I just run two independent runners.
Would this work better with an 8 (which in theory wouldnt roll)?
Is that just an overhand knot in the middle, sorry did not hear if they said it.
Yes
Whats a better way to do an anchor with a 60cm sling?
Some people like the girth hitch Masterpoint
Other than the strength of dyneema and nylon, what are some of the pros and cons of each material? Like durability and lifespan?
Dyneema is much lighter than nylon, but more expensive, very smooth and less UV resistant.
@@angrybirder9983 nylon webbing is more resistant than dyneema?
@@bhgraf08 Yes, nylon slings are indeed more UV resistant than dyneema. And kernmantle rope is generally more resistant than flat webbing.
@@angrybirder9983 good to know
So basically every dyneema sling broke at about 50% MBS due to the knot?
Is a clove hitch master point and a girth hitch master point a SWAMP?
Not the same: a hitch exist if it is wrapped around something, a knot exist on its own.
butterfly
Hi Ryan, could you do an updated video from this one, please?
th-cam.com/video/xo12vEOrA8w/w-d-xo.html
I've been searching for the break test info for the Bowline on a Bight tied in rope (rethreaded bowline) and can't find the data anywhere. Please can you help? Thanks
Edit: I also love using the SWAMP...... didn't actually realise it had a name other then a knot in a sling 😂
Is this a re-invention of the Spanish bowline?
No, it’s not.
Gear fear😮duh🤷♀️
Another for the archives, of Why Bother, Nothing to be Gained, once-used now relegated because better options are known and totally overshadow them. A curiosity for history buffs mostly.
But it’s not really redundant bc if one leg is cut then it’s pretty weak??
Pretty weak is still strong enough in this case :) Definitely for the nylon sling and the dyneema is probably fine because you won’t have a sustained force pulling hard enough to roll the knot several times.
@@lukeburkhalter5711 would be nice to see it on the drop tower before i make that assumption
they can rattle open and lose a fair amount of stength in a fall not looking at the video
Personally in this situation with a short sling and a few carabiners, I'd make a clove hitch anchor instead. Nice and easy to tie and untie.
th-cam.com/video/1UyInC0SkGo/w-d-xo.html
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That's a little sketch for me. Quad all the way
The old guy (and hey, I'm 70) doesn't really fit into this channel.