EL Falcon No Start MiracleMAX
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- MiracleMAX is given a no start Falcon to diagnose. In line with the motto 'Making the complex, simple', follow the diagnostic path that will help you repair your vehicle when necessary.
Keep an eye out for his strange side-kick.....
I had to fix someone Ford EL Falcon which has 232,500 kilometres on the odometer as of late due to a hard start or a no start issue in the mornings,it also had a stalling issue which turned out to be caused by a faulty ECU.
The Hall effect sensor terminals on the TFI module had a case of the green crusties which was only providing a bad contact between the Hall effect sensor terminals & the TFI module terminals.
I just cleaned them off with aluminium oxide sandpaper & I applied some dielectric grease to both male & female terminals,I also packed all around the O ring seal & through the top of the Hall effect sensor with that grease to prevent the ingress of moisture at the terminals.
I think Ford have circled the problem because the Holden VN-VT 5 litre Commodore V8 engines distributor has a sealed oval shaped weatherproof connector which prevents moisture from entering the connector then corroding out the Hall effect sensor terminals.
At least the Falcon starts in the morning now !
Congrats Russell!
Good idea to follow up with the dielectric grease to stop future issues.
A lot of those older vehicles will be showing their age, especially if they haven't been maintained over the years.
Well done and thanks for sharing your comment. 😉
MriacleMAX
I thought Id comment without much thought coz Im a Ford lover!!Love your videos they are very informative
Cheers Robert!
Glad you enjoy the videos and got a laugh!
Well done thanks
You are welcome 😉
Dude exactly what I was looking for.
That's great news Peter! That's why I share these videos. I feel that I have accomplished something if someone else can benefit from what I have done.
Thanks for your comments.
MiracleMAX
Mate awesome video. Wondering if you have ever come across my issue.
El falcon hits 4500rpm and shuts off. No spark.
If you replace the coil it will start. If you let it sit for 24 hours it starts. If you hit 4500rpm it will shut off again.
Not temperature dependent.
Only started recently no signs of damage on leads. Plugs about 100km old.
Disconnect and reconnect battery no change
Disconnect and reconnect tfi module no change
Next step is Disconnect and reconnect coil.
Reckon it could be tfi module?
Leads, cap and rotor button were replaced and 10 years ago amd should be fine cause it's pretty low km.
That is certainly one option.
Another thing to consider, which is common on the EL, is the distributor shaft itself, the gear or the sub gear that drives the distributor gear
ive just spent the arvo under my 97 el fairmont just behind the front left wheel peering up at the myeterious wonder that lies beneeth that pesky manifold. cant say im a ford man but its all ive got. im a beginner home mechanic. i think its a good car to start on.
Well done Peter Laban for getting your hands dirty!
I hope you are successful in your repairs 😊
MiracleMAX
oh that makes more sense thought u were talking about your beautiful granddaughter.... no mini mark as a hip t-shirt on. and that humor 👍
+Nicole Delangen Yes, she is gorgeous and will feature in future videos. Mini MAX kinda came from nowhere. He's very hard to control....
yes she is very cute... u make a good pair
+Nicole Delangen I actually meant the sidekick in this video. I guess you didn't see after half way. HE is very cute - well, sort of :)
Hi mate, my fuel pump in my ef is working but it isn’t getting any power, I have checks the fuses, do you know what it mite be?
John Cooper Dec 19 Very Helpful Many Thanks
Glad it helped. Feel free to check out my other videos - you might find something useful :)
Very good vid luv your work
Cheers, Thanks for that. I hope you enjoy the other videos as well :)
Fantastic tutorial mate. I would have been stoked to have a mechanical workshop teacher/lecturer like yourself, back in the day. Very informative and easy to interpret. How did you go removing the dizzy without taking off the intake manifold assembly though?
Hey Mr Bigguns,
Thanks for your kind words! Hopefully my current students have the same opinion......
The dizzy is a real challenge on these models. The key is to remove the distributor cap in 2 sections (it has a divider in the middle). After that is out of the road, remove the rotor button and the distributor will come out. Yes it is a pain, but if you wiggle it out of the oil pump drive, they will come out - eventually........
Cheers Mate
MiracleMAX
MiracleMAX sweet as that was my next question..apart from why would I let her buy a F&$!;&( s$;$!?!!! ):)));$:& (insert naughty words) ford fmmmmmghhhhh
dad wont be happy with this... he still loves his fords ☺
+Nicole Delangen I have absolute respect for Ford owners..........they have kept technicians like myself employed our entire working life, so that we can afford to buy a decent car. ☺
+MiracleMAX Hey Nicole, what did you think of MiracleMAX's sidekick???
@@MiracleMAX Holdens have their share of problems made some lemons like the Camira any cars with east west engines
@@russelblackwell6041 You are absolutely correct!! :) Holden advertised it as 'Australia's first four-cylinder limousine', but what it really was is a bag of 4 lemons on wheels.....
mocking the best cars mateee
I can only go on what experience shows...............
+MiracleMAX keeping mechanics employed everywhere?
You can credit the badge for that!
Hello there , nice to see Aussie mechanic on TH-cam.
I have a Ford falcon I love Ford's lol when everything is working but I bought a cheap Ute for work , was good but $900 on gas cheap but it over heated first drive from where I bought it at peak hour traffic. open radiator cap to see and water exploded every where and I waited for it to cool down put water in it and it was fine for two weeks no problem then I noticed slow crank starting now no start , I replaced starter still no good replaced cables still no good , start relay is fine but even with a new battery still slow crank , I have started it was happy drive around the block and parked happy but next day no start I'm desperate going to loose my job I'm completely exhausted. any ideas please help
How can I turn off the airbag light it's flashing 5 and 2
Sorry on my El ford
Hey Graeme,
Have you checked your airbag fuse? When did it first come on? Was it after a flat battery? You could try by disconnecting the battery for 10 minutes or so.
There might be a fault with the system - air bag resistances out of range, voltage drop somewhere, clockspring failure, front impact sensor or something similar.
My falcon has the same problem
Thinking about buying a commodore :b
Then u aren’t thinking XD
So I've got a 1993 ed falcon with a Intech motor which is out of a AU running dizzy.... the car was running on LPG injectiors taped into OEM wiring loom.. now I've got all LPG removed following by full tear down re gasket CAR strated first go.... then issues wouldn't start change pump to walbro GSS342 then started then played up change coil started few times then I got new dizzy/Bosch it strated few times thought now she's got spark fuel timing correct I've notice the top of the fuel reg where the vacuum line goes in there's fuel leaking out surely that wouldn't stop it from starting
Hey Nick,
I might need some more details before I can offer some suggestions.
Did you say that you have done a full tear down? Does that mean you have rebuilt the motor?
Does it have consistent spark?
Is it timed correctly - those dizzies can be a bit of a pain.
If there is fuel leaking out of the vacuum port on the pressure regulator, that means that the regulator is had it and must be replaced. If the regulator is slammed shut due to no vacuum opening it at cranking/idle, it will have full pressure and will most likely not start.
@@MiracleMAX so I bin the old head a soused new head fully Recon replace from the sump gasket and every other gasket on the motor.... distributor I got of ebay before had a weak sprak... so I got bosch one with brace cog great sprak tho what happened as u crank car try's to strat but plugs get drownd in fuel 🤷♂️ maybe related to reg been bad I'm also got AU bottom intake with EL TOP to run broadband solenoid the vacuum
So if the fuel reg no good it will stop the motor from running....
Also not a smartlock issue because I've bypass it the RED module is unplugged and the car cranks
@@nickprostizenovski6948 Hey Nick, yes the fuel regulator will explain the spark plugs being wet and therefore will not provide a good spark at the plugs and not wanting to start.
Are you sure you have the ignition timing right? They can be a bit tricky with the distributor.
@@MiracleMAX yeah timing is different to ea and ed as my motor is AU intech I've double triple check tdc all that jaz it's started before when I got the brake cleaner and cleaned all the spark plugs put it in it did struggle to start as I was crank in the motor but eventually started
@@nickprostizenovski6948 In that case, I'd head toward that fuel pressure regulator
Interesting mine does the same but not all the time and sometimes turns off whilst driving might check the wires in the loom plug itself
If it is a spark issue, it could also be the Thick Film Ignition Module, which is connected to the Hall Effect sensor and bolted to the side of the distributor. These also suffered from break down due to heat and vibration.
@@MiracleMAX
Hi there i replace another distributor and it still fires low....
Hey Macki 27,
What do you mean by it still fires low?
Just wondering did it have a check engine light on and any codes
To be honest Carlitos Cruz, I didn't check. I just checked for spark and injector pulse & started from there.
Are you having problems?
MiracleMAX
@@MiracleMAX no I just wanted to see if u had that option. I like watching channel like yours I just subscribed. I’m in the process of becoming a master tech for automotive and I loved your other video about understanding the dwell points on a distributor
@@carlitos19cali I don't think these have a typical OBD-II system, but they probably have the EEC-IV or EEC-V code system.
Great news about your educational advancement! Congrats!
I did the ignition system videos for my apprentices I teach at the college during lockdown to keep them awake. There is still heaps more in the series. Next is COP testing, with the variety of wiring systems - so stay tuned!
His attempt at humor is as good as his selection of cars
This one was donated to the college. I have a love/hate relationship with Fords. I love them, because I get to repair them! :)
Barely Holden on don’t u mean
Ah, the debate continues.......
Are you using a multi meter?
Hey Jaws 2,
In this case to keep the testing process simple, I used a test light. To diagnose the fault correctly, a multimeter should be used to make sure that all needed voltages are correct.
MiracleMAX
I have the same symptoms in my 92 5L V8. Not sure about injectors but no spark out leads. Do they work the same principle as the six cylinder?
Hey James, Welcome to the channel!
Yes, it appears with your model, they use a distributor with a Thick Film Module. Just as the video showed, check for both spark and injector pulse to start your diagnostic path. Yell out if you need any other help.
Cheers
MiracleMAX
MiracleMAX I have two multimeters with little experience using them or where to put the ends and no test light.
I think I am finally close to finding the problem. In my experience, the V8 and six share a lot in common externally.
@@jamesfrench7299 Hey James,
I hope to put up a multimeter tutorial in the near future, but that won't help you for now.
I might be worth getting a LED test light for your testing as a multimeter will only give you an average when testing a pulsing signal.
To test to see if you have spark, just use a spare spark plug into a disconnected plug lead. Connect a wire from a clip on the plug thread or nut back to a ground somewhere.
Or, you could put your plug with the lead attached and touch it against a metal engine part (don't hold onto it or you may get a shock). During cranking, you should see a spark at the plug.
If you don't have test light, you could use a low wattage bulb (5W), like a number plate globe in a socket and look for pulsing across the injector wires. But, preferably use a LED test light.
Remember not to force something into the terminals in the connector as you might stretch them out of shape and create all sorts of headaches for your self.
MiracleMAX thanks for your detailed and timely reply.
The car fired up today.
My car has been sitting three months. I have the trusty 89 Laser which I've had for near on 10 years now so didn't have the urgency to get the Fairlane sorted.
It all began late December when I failed to shut the boot properly leaving the light running for four days before I went to drive it again and discovered the battery thoroughly drained.
After charging it in situ with a 2.5A output battery charger, then finishing with a microprocessor controlled charger, it turned over without firing.
My mechanic over the phone said it must be a relay and said to try tapping then with a screwdriver.
I couldn't find the "brown one" (which is under the water reservoir!) so tried tapping the four others beside the reservoir. It then fired up(!!). We took it for a longish drive, stopping off a couple of occasions, then home no problems. Battery liked it as the indicator window went back to green from orange.
Next day though, back to turning over no start. 😑
Somehow I got it going after another attempt "playing the xylophone" with the other relays mentioned before - coincidental in hindsight as it never "worked" again to fire up engine.
Engine idled for about three minutes then stalled and wouldn't start.
I tried another ECM relay off a wreck but that didn't work and it as well as the original was "clicking" when ignition was turned on so that wasn't the culprit.
The mechanic came over and tested for spark and he said there wasn't any and couldn't understand why and said to call his semi retired auto sparky.
He said he would see it in a couple of weeks the other day as he was "flat chat".
This is when I decided to look online and found sine info in Ford forums about these symptoms and the likelihood of the dizzy, coil, and those two modules in and it of the dizzy. I then saw your video.
I made the same mistake the other day and drained the battery again but this time I disconnected the negative battery terminal before charging it.
Well. I got the idea of using the battery condition lights on my multimeter to see if that might work with an injector.
After wrestling the plastic plug off the injector mistakenly with pliers and breaking a section of plastic off -no harm done -mended with tape -should have used fingers only - I didn't get the chance to try it as the engine fired up immediately! I ran it for 20 minutes including going through the recalibration of the transmission.
Maybe the engine ECU just needed a rebooting? I'll see if it starts tomorrow.
@@jamesfrench7299 Hey James, have you considered that although the battery may be saying it's OK, that the internal resistance may be causing a problem, especially if it has been drained so many times? With electronic control units, many times if they don't see a good clean 12 volts, they won't allow voltage to the injectors or coil.
Another thing to keep in mind is that there are several relays under the reservoir. These include fuel pump, AC, start & ECU. In my experience with these, it is worth replacing the relays instead of just tapping them. You can remove the cover and look at the switch inside. Generally, you will find 'pitting' that will not allow current to pass through when energised. With relays, 'if in doubt, throw them out', especially with the location of these relays as they tend to get wet under the reservoir and have all sorts of intermittent issues.
great info holden lover my self
Not necessarily a Holden lover, just from experience, not a fan of the Ford! Thanks for your comment.
I have a question what causes the hall sensor to fail
Hey Peter,
Fair question. I guess it's like any other part that fails - location, conditions & design.
Keep in mind that generally they are in harsh conditions with vibrations, excessive temperature changes, sometimes getting covered with fluids such as oils, coolant or fuel, amongst other factors. Even the wires going to the component may fail due to the routing or corrosion that it may have incurred. These are electronic components and just like any other, they hate heat and vibration.
Then the actual design comes into play. Is the part a quality part with a reputable company behind it or just a cheap knock off? Engineers may want to design a bullet-proof component, but price will limit their imagination or allowable requirements. I hope that answers your question.
Cheers
MiracleMAX
MiracleMAX it has answered some of my questions but my problem is I’ve had 2 dizzys in it and five mod and coils my problem is I’ve bought a new dizzy set it up roughly and still not firing, I can’t be buying new dizzys every time when the hall fucks up that’s why I asked what causes the hall sensor to fail
@@peterhiskins2526 So is it definitely the Hall sensor that has failed? Does the distributor have a Thick Film Module on the side like the one in the video? These are very heat effected.
What do you mean that you have had 5 mods?
Are you sure the Hall sensor is causing it not to fire? What testing have you done so far? You state that you put the distributor in roughly. You can put them in 180 degrees out and then they won't start.
Why were the coils replaced? What testing was done to prove they were faulty?
Have you followed the testing procedures shown in the video?
Are you getting injector pulse?
I hope these questions will help you diagnose the fault.
MiracleMAX thanks for your advice is was the hall sensor so I replaced the dizzy again and it fires up no worries
@@peterhiskins2526 Glad to hear that Peter!
Was it a new distributor? Can you get warranty for it?
I wonder if there is a reason that they are failing, if you are replacing them with new, quality parts.
got a simular issue on my new EL falcon, its got injector pulse which i confirmed by ear with a hose and also has spark and appears to be timed, so no stuffed gears (timing might be off though) it wants to run easier on LPG than petrol but at best i can get it to fire on 2-3 cylinders and sounds like its afterfiring like mad, any ideas? im hoping its just the coil failing and i just havent got enough spark to start it, problem is intermittent as i did have it come right and drove it 2km today, parked it up with AC on to try recreate the problem and went in to have breakfast, car hasent started since, ill give it another go first thing in the morning with a fully charged battery
rats i only got this car a little over a week ago, havent even done 2000km in it yet
Can you isolate which cylinders aren't firing? If you had intermittent spark, I suggest you check your distributor cap and leads, also the carbon brush in the cap.
Let me know how you go
@@MiracleMAX pulled the cap off last night and it looked alright but I didnt look too close at the button I’ll have another go at starting it thismorning before I start pulling stuff appart
@@MiracleMAX dizzy fine and leads test fine, gonna try new plugs and a new coil, when I changed my AUs coil pack back in HS I remember getting a shock off the old one after I’d disconnected everything and went to take it out decent enough that I remembered and always exercise caution around the HT system, 2 min after firing the coil trying to get it to start my hand slips and touches the secondary, no shock, shocking right?
My thought (and hopes) are the coils insulation is breaking down enough to leak enough to let it run sometimes and not start
Will pull coil tommorow, am told should be 7ohms between the primary and secondary
@@Footrotflats251 Have a look on the coil when you have removed it for any carbon tracking - where the voltage finds it easier to short to ground rather than the spark plug.
Usually you will find a low reading on the primary side - 1.5 Ohms, the secondary should be perhaps 10KOhms (yes, that's thousands of Ohms!)
Have a look at my Ignition system playlist to get a better understanding of how to test the components.
th-cam.com/video/LTnDQXAnSog/w-d-xo.html
@@MiracleMAX i got 0.8k from primary pos to neg, 7k from primary to secondary and nothing from secondary to ground, got the new coil in there and still nothing, ive got the dizzy sitting next to me and its an aftermarket no brand one, how do i go about testing that? think ill replace it anyway
G'day MiracleMAX I replaced the coil pack in my for EF falcon as i thought that might have been the problem why my car is not starting but it still wont start, we tested to see if it had spark but it only had spark once now it has nothing again, so i was wondering is the new coil pack i got broken now as well or could it be another problem with the car thanks,
Hey Choparoo,
Have you got injector pulse? If you don't have injector pulse as well as no spark, it might be the crank angle sensor. Was there a pulsing trigger at the ignition coil? Was it brand new or second hand?
Do you have the 6 cylinder or V8 engine? The 6 seems to have an inductive sensor, whereas the V8 seems to have a Hall Effect sensor with an ignition control module as part of what normally would be where a distributor would be located.
Cheers
MiracleMAX
@@MiracleMAX thanks for the reply MiracleMax my cars engine is a 6 cylinder, the coil pack i got was brand new, i might have to get a mechanic to come around and test the parts you have mentioned as i don't have the tools to test it myself, as i'm a poor man with a poor car XD
Also i was wondering would the 100 amp fuse located on the drivers side in the engine bay be causing the problem.
As back when i first got the car the 100 amp fuse was broken, but a dogey mechanic i took the car to to get it fixed just soldered the fuse to make the car run, as it was backfiring when the fuse was broken, but the dogey fix got it running fine for about 100,000 km
but anyway thanks for the help i'll let you know how i go when i can get a mechanic to come round and have a look at it cheers mate.
@@Choparoo
Hey Coparoo,
I hope you get it sorted.
Please keep us informed when you get it repaired.
Great video mate, my xh falcon has just done the same thing (same motor) but when I went to check if it had spark it decided to start. But after I turned it off it wouldn't start again. I checked if there was spark and there was no spark. I put the lead back on and guess what it started! However this morning it would not start at all, so my question is to you, once the hall sensor goes will it go or will it play up before it packs it in all together? Thanks
So have you tested the Hall Effect Sensor with a test light like I have shown in the video at 4:00? The PIP output will tell you if the Hall Sensor is sending a pulse to the ECU. When the motor doesn't start is this pulsing or not? Sometimes the Thick Film Module will play up as well, particularly heat related. Does it start better when it is cold compared to when it is hot? That may be the electronics in the module. The SPOUT or Spark Out comes from the ECU to the module, so you can determine if it is the Hall Effect, the ECU or the Thick Film Module, depending on where you have a pulsing with your test light.
I hope that helps
MiracleMAX
Yes I have taken the distributor out and tested it to make sure, it is working fine, I actually got it started but no wont start again and has no spark at the plugs, I'm starting to lean towards the ecu
So when you tested for pulse, did you have any at the PIP or SPOUT? If you have pulse at these points, it could always be an ignition coil.....
Thanks for replying bu the way It doesn't seem to matter if it's hot or cold, once it starts it is fine runs like a clock but turn it of and it's the same problem again
So did you get pulse at the PIP and SPOUT when you cranked the engine?
Hey mate love the vid funny yet informative.. ok so my mrs car which is same as in video started the other day.. put in reverse got 2feet then died instantly.. no chugging or starving.. just dead 💀.. when I turn ignition on the airbag light flashes five times Followed by a break then flashes two times also there is the red light which I believe indicates overheating is on solid in the temperature gauge can you point me in the right direction please
Hey skyes Faces xox
Have you had a flat battery at all? Or long cranking without starting? The flashing airbag light indicates a code 52 - low battery voltage. Depending on your skill level, checking the battery condition and terminal tension would be my starting point. If the battery is correctly charged, the code could be cleared using a scan tool. Believe it or not, those other lights may be related as the ECU (Electronic Control Unit) doesn't like it when voltages drop below 12 volts and will create all sorts of issues.
I hope that is a starting point for you.
Or maybe it's just the badge on the grille.....:)
MiracleMAX hey just put a v8 battery in and still no love.. took badge off still no joy lol
Gonna take distributor and hall sensor of wrecked car. Try that
@@skyesfacesxox8236 Before you do that, does it have spark and injector pulse? If it does, you will be loading up the parts cannon for no reason.....
MiracleMAX just made a test light and gonna see
Ya do know that there has been NO true ho.. hol ... hold ... awww crap holden since 1996. Mostly german design and a truckload of toyota parts in em. Ford made FORD all the way through untilstopping production of the Falcon ... sheeeeeesh ruddy Holden nuts
Hey Gareth,
I'm glad I'm not a Holden nut! They shut down in October 20, 2017. Ford shut down in October 7, 2016. To be quite honest, it has been sad to see the decline of all the car manufacturers in Australia. None are made here anymore. Just keep in mind that nearly all cars are a mix of many different manufacturers including electronics (Bosch), interiors, sometimes suspension and steering, transmission (ZF), final drive (Borg Warner), airbags (Takata) and the list goes on. I believe now that Holden vehicles are made in 11 different countries - not sure about Fords, but either way it is sad to see manufacturing now being done overseas.
Cheers for your comments :)
Maybe the ford can pik up on your dislike of it
Maybe 😉
My falcon has the same problem
Thinking about buying a commodore :b
Unfortunately, all cars have their problems. Here is a link to a video I did with a Commodore with issues.
th-cam.com/video/f85Uf6P0m54/w-d-xo.html
No vehicle is perfect. It might be worth getting someone to check out a car you consider buying before you purchase.
Good Luck!
cool dude that was a very polite way of saying commodores are shit too LOL
Actually I don't have a favourite vehicle. I just love the opportunity to diagnose a range of faulty vehicles!!