A sandwich construction is one of the best known and most important principles in construction of any kind, 100% backed by physics and math. There's no discussion that laminated is incredibly superior in strength and stability. My building engineering dad taught me that 50 years ago already. Today I depend on it in the construction of super light single-end suspended X-ray tables which can hold 660 pds patients x 4 safety factor with minimum deflection. They simply cannot be designed from any material without the sandwich construction. Sorry buddy, but you are really wrong about this one.
You absolutely missed the point. Laminations must be made correctly in order to work. If a laminated guitar neck is not made correctly, it won’t possess the advantages that are desired and in many cases, they will do the opposite of what is expected.
@@HighlineGuitars You spent the entire video stating how single slab necks are just as stable as laminated dittos. That's not correct. Besides it's not difficult to make a good lamination but even a poor one is easily superior to a single slab of wood.
Man, you seem more fragile than the laminated necks you're falsely labeling. You're literally trying to shut down any opinions that aren't your own for the sake of your ego.
I have 2 ibanez guitars with laminated necks and I have a Les Paul and a SG I gig most Friday and Saturday nights and some Sunday afternoons in bars and I live in North of Chicago I have not had any noticeable rasing of the grain in the Ibanez necks. I have noticed all the necks have problems going from the car to the stage in the summer or winter. But it is never unplayable but I can notice the difference and I make the necessary trust rod adjustment.
Nice video. Actually its not hypothetical that properly laminiated wood is stronger,, stiffer and more stable, its simple physics in materials engineering. There have been studies on laminated woods (and other materials) versus single boards, not necessarily guitar related though but the principles are the same. The early aerospace industry used laminated woods for varous parts because a properly laminated board is stronger and more stable than a single board. A propeller made of a single board will fail, so laminated propellers were used with great success. As for as seams, I've actually never seen problems in better quality instruments having issues with seams but have seen this on lower priced instruments. Probably due to lower quality wood and poor seasoning prior to building. I have seen way more seam issues with fingerboards creeping on any instriment than multi laminated necks creeping and developing seams. Probably due to a bass fingerboard being about 2.5 inches wide, but the neck thickness being an inch or less. Most of my experience is with basses. I've played for 40 years and have built many of my own basses. The additional string tension and longer necks need a stiff and stable neck. Solid carbon fiber like my Steinberger is my favorite as far as stiffness, then I'd rank laminated 2nd, quartersawn 3rd and flatsawn 4th.
That is incorrect, A laminated Propellor is more prone to strike damage just like a CF Prop, whereas a solid beechwood prop typically can take a strike and be fine. Its simple physics the harder a material is the more brittle it is, there is no voodoo that can allow you to break simple rules of Chemistry and Physics sorry that just is not possible. Where you are getting your info from?, engineered wood is not as strong as a solid piece its just CHEAPER TO MANUFACTURE, which is why the industry switched to them on top of them being more stiff it leads to more efficiency at the cost of their damage resistance, Beechwood has a certain amount of flex under force which allows it to take impacts and reverberate the energy through its body, a laminate will just shatter. Also A composite is completely different, CF is not the same nor does it have the same properties as wood or other composites. So no it is not more stable and you have to always check them for crack damage in the seams due to temperature, Boeings 787 Dreamliner exterior skin is Composite CF and before and after every flight needs to be inspected for damage because it is so fragile. There are people today that still insist on running Wood props and insist on non composites and CF props because they can damage the engine when they crack from a strike. Also I had a few issues with Laminate Ibanez Wizard necks, like he mentioned expansion and contraction and humidity. Some twisted as well due to density differences in materials the temperature changes cause the neck to warp over time, remember not all necks are sealed with finishes.
@@nocturnal101ravenous6 I totally agree about the stiffer material being more brittle. Tungsten carbide is super stiff but brittle. And roasted maple is stiffer than plain maple but is more brittle and prone to cracks from the limited experience i have with roasted maple. For a guitar or bass neck with 3 to 5 laminates, the brittleness won't be an issue, but it will benefit from better stability. If a neck is laminated properly with properly aged wood, the neck should be more stable. And I've seen way more issues with fretboards developing noticeable seams than neck laminations. And I've seen way more twisted single piece necks than with laminates. To take laminates to the extreme, Philip Kubicki ex-factor basses where made with around 32 laminates of 2mm quartersawn maple. I've never seen one of those necks warp, have stability issues or seam issues. I pretty much only build basses. Stiffness is critical, much more so than guitars. I do think some of the lower priced instruments with laminated necks is bad. If the wood is not properly dried and matched; i can see those having issues. To make a good laminated neck takes a good deal of experience and time. It is more complicated for sure.
@@sunn_bass It will be when it falls over, and you don't understand its more prone to a crack remember the amount of tension you have it under....but see You called it there, its about understanding the risk and reward of using the materials in that way. "I do think some of the lower priced instruments with laminated necks is bad. If the wood is not properly dried and matched; i can see those having issues." yes and that is the problem its cheaper to build a laminate neck, and manufacturers are trying to hit a price point, so the chances an off the shelf Guitar or Bass under $2500 is done properly is really a roll of the dice and up to the brand in assuring through QC measures and warranty. I personally have seen too many go bad, as someone mentioned a 1 piece maple neck from Fender with the Walnut skunkstripe almost always has shrinkage or bulges.
@@nocturnal101ravenous6 Great conversation! There are so many ways to look at construction methods. Many pros and cons. Most of my experience is with bass necks. By default, the extra string tension and extra neck length pose issues that guitars don't have. So much boils down to the wood preparation, wood quality and the builder. I would never buy a cheap laminated neck because there are more factors to consider The 3 necks I've seen issues with are Gibson, Fender and old Peavey bi-laminated necks. For many Fender's the skunk strip is very noticeable. I've always wondered if that was an issue with how the walnut skunk stripe was dried, and not the design itself. This is one design I've never built, but I've owned a bunch of. The old Peavey bi-laminated necks occasionally split on the glue seam. Most that I saw with issues was when I lived in Texas and heat softened the glue. Then again I've seen tons of heat issues back then with a lot of guitars being overheated cause people left instruments in their trunk (dumb). I have a 1986 Peavey patriot, their cheapest model from then, with no issues and no seam that is noticeable. As for Gibsons, that 17 degree headstock angle is just begging to snap. Speaking of angled headstocks, scarf joints are generally considered better than a single piece neck for angled headstocks. I have seen many scarf joints, rarely noticed the seam of the joint. I love hearing different perspectives as everyone's experience is different. Even the climate where we live make a difference. I now live in Ohio and deal with making more adjustments to instruments than when i lived in the Gulf coast of Texas. Cheers
I have made over 250 necks, approximately half is 1 piece, the other half is multi piece. I even used the same blanks to make 1piece as well as multi piece necks. Multi piece is, by far, the most stable. I need to adjust the trussrod with the single piece necks, all the time, even with carbon rods, where the multi piece necks require at least 5x less adjustment. I also did some other tests with glue and how much they add to the overall weight of a neck, as a percentage of the neck. It's less than 0.5%. I think, I can handle a bit of glue in exchange for added stability.
Well, I have to say that I have thousands necks made from one piece in my hands but majority of them had a problem, twist, warp, banana arching. . . . after a time. Laminated necks, I could see it don´t have it. This is my experience. A note- the negative things were happened on great cut wood too.
@@Jeremya74 I had to watch it again, You are not a fanatic, how some guys are, and I fully respect Your opinion and deep experiences You have. We make laminated necks just because those from one pieces inclined to get twist, one mont ago, We made a custom neck from one piece of roast maple from Canada. The neck "danced" a lot if there were carbon rods inside. Yes, no one knows how and where is a tensinon into the wood. Roman from BaCH Music, Czech
I like the look of multi-laminate necks more than anything. They might be more stable if done well. They are certainly not cheaper to manufacture even if the wood is cheaper. There are lots of cases where different species of wood are glued together without issue. Maple tops on mahogany, ES335 plywood guitars, inlays on fretboards, every acoustic guitar. I wouldn't think it would be a big issue if the wood is dried properly.
laminate necks are cheaper for my use case because i can reliably design and build them from most scraps that cost nothing. those carbon fiber rods he had are what really separates the men from the boys of strength and tuning stability. im scouring junk yards for wrecked cars with carbon fiber panels and trim to mill down for necks, those rods are expensive and sometimes fard to find
Always nice to have a luthier’s perspective on controversial subjects in the guitar industry. It would interesting to see your perspective on neck through vs bolt on and set neck constructions
Thank you. IF you feel a seam, it's literally 100ths of a millimeter or less. If that tiny increment affects your ability to play, maybe you should put the guitar down and work for NASA.
I do like the way laminated necks look with the contrasting woods. I had never considered that the changes over time could cause the seams to be felt. Good info!
As a Cigar Box Guitar builder, a stable and strong neck is of utmost importance to me, as CBG's normally have no truss rod. Therefore, I use quarter sawn oak, which stays very stable. But, more & more CBG builders are now laminating 4 mirrored contrasting woods together for their necks. All woodworkers know that a glued joint is always far stronger than the wood itself. Good video!
Thank you, sir. I also watched the following video about laminated necks. Does the same perspective you have also apply to necks for 7-string guitars? I would like to know that for the right decision making 🙏
@@HighlineGuitars thank you for answering, it saves me a lot of money not to spend it on an expensive laminated neck 😊 By the way, I like your new intro with the face close to the camera 😄👌🏻
I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I can go either way for my purposes. However, if it is to be believed, that a Titebond glue joint is stronger than the original wood, how can a laminated neck fail to be more stable? Especially with that join multiplied over every square inch of it's application? I do believe it as i have ripped apart Titebond glue joints many times and it always rips up the fiber under the join. The point you made about different species expanding and contracting at different rates is well noted tho. I have to believe the conditions would have to be severe for that and might reflect faulty applications of adhesive. I mean that stuff is so rough to seperate once cured 😝 Imagining any shift over all those sides is mind boggling.
I never mentioned the glue. I know from many decades of experience how strong modern wood glue is. My issue was how the wood shrinks at different rates and can cause the seams to stick out. In fact, the glue will make it worse since the wood around it will shrink.
@@HighlineGuitars Theres also the issue of creep that is inherent in PVA glues, I wonder if using epoxy based glues for laminated necks would cut down on the issue of the seam becoming more prominent.
Perhaps. But there are no studies that prove a laminated neck is better. And if you read through the comments, you'll see that many others have had problems with them that they thought shouldn't happen just because the neck was laminated. But they did happen because there is no required standard for making laminated necks. As a result, there are good ones and there are bad ones.
You need to look up architectural engineering studies. That's where you'll find the science. Just how that directly applies to the forces on a guitar neck of course, is another story. Since it is magnitudes harder than lignin, the glue seams themselves are what adds the stiffness (increases the modulus of elasticity). It's not actually the orientation of the growth lines. As for stability, then epoxy is the adhesive for this job. Clamping laminations with a water based glue is problematic, especially dissimilar timbers. Epoxy will also have higher bonding strength with tropical hardwoods. However, in my experience it yields a dark glue line which may not look great with two light coloured timbers. As for environmental concerns, well if we cared about the forests, we wouldn't be building guitars or really anything from new timber at all. The amount of wood in a guitar that's left from the original log is miniscule. Orientating laminations carefully to save some timber is an economic/business choice of large guitar manufacturers. It has nothing to do with the preservation of forestry. And is meaningless for small builders. Stringing up a new neck and saying "well this is straight and has the perfect amount of relief" etc, is also meaningless. The real test of a guitar neck is 10+ years after it is made.
I have. The science, for reasons that should be obvious, doesn’t apply to guitar necks. I may have to make a follow up video to explain this to those who don’t understand why it doesn’t apply.
@@mattparise4463 They do follow the same science. It’s how the forces are applied that’s different. That should be obvious and in no need of explanation.
What about necks with different wood fingerboards? My 1969 Guild Studio 302 that I've owned since new hasn't done any noticeable moving around. Maybe I just can't see it because the neck is bound. I guess I should look at a 50's Tele or Strat that don't use binding.
I make laminated necks for only two real reasons. Whether it's good for the environment or not, it makes better use of my "scraps" so I don't have as much waste wood. Plus, they just look so good with different coloured pieces!
I build my own guitars. This problem with being able to feel the glue seams also occurs on a Fender style one piece neck with a skunk stripe. I typically use quarter sawn roasted maple with a walnut skunk stripe. In my experience, while not separating in any way, the seam after a time, can be felt in some builds requiring be to sand the area around the seam and refinish.
I build both regularly myself. When I do do a laminate neck, I mirror the grains. Makes sense to do it this way. Not sure if it is making a difference, just better to be safe than sorry. I do like to do three piece ones, the middle piece I will sometimes use a different board of the same species. this will many time result in a slight shade of color difference, which is what I am going for. Nice video by the way.
I received as a 'spares repairs' 1967 Eko 12 string recently. Usual 5 piece laminated neck which was almost perfect after all this time. I installed a 'Bridge Doctor' due to sinkage and re-glued the detached back. The neck just needed a quick tweak of the truss rod and fret work but I think in this instance Eko had the right idea. I can though see where it may have an adverse effect in uneducated hands. Thanks for the vids. Steve
I make my mandolin necks using quarter sawn strips of the hardest dark wood I can find between strips of less dark hard wood like paduk with hard or curly white maple to the out sides. I will put a pair of carbon fiber (.250 X .200" ) "rod" inserts let into the neck blank which elimiminates the need for a truss rod. It probably is over kill, but these necks can withstand the heaviest string gauges that the top carved sound boards can tolerate. These suckers can be loud with the right amount of thickness. The thickness can be a hit or miss depending on the wood for the top. Each mando will be different, but after a while, each will be in the right ball park. Sort of like children from a large family. --each with uniques features. Ask Jerry Rosa for his ideas on the need for truss rods for mandolins. Bob.
I believe you are right. Carbon fiber probably is the best way to reïnforce a neck. It would be a solution to laminate the neck, with a one-piece underneath. So that you'd get the contrasting wood above but just one where you put your thumb. So you'd laminate like half the thickness of a neck and then glue on a piece underneath.
Id say we need to ask ppl like Jeff Kiesel and the likes who do beautiful multi peace necks and see what the reliability is long term. Bc Ive always loved the look, and I may not be corrected but hasnt fender always done this with the walnut strip? Im not a luthier, so idk that may not be what you mean by laminated neck. Id love to find out though.
Technically, the Fender skunk stripe is a cover and not a laminate. That being said, skunk stripes can suffer the same drawbacks as laminates in that the seams can sometimes be felt. Kiesel Guitars make excellent laminated necks because They know how to make them correctly.
@HighlineGuitars thank you for tue reply. It makes sense that when doing something to that level every part is critical from ensuring properly dried wood, to building it properly. I can definitely see inexperienced builders or sloppy/rush builders messing this up.
Spot on. From my own experience, I would second everything you said. I recently did a 5 piece laminated neck (customer's spec) wenge/purpeheart/wenge/purpleheart/wenge. It was sanded to a beautiful smooth finish and oiled with Crimson Guitars finishing oil (5 coats). Then I shipped it to the customer. about 3 months later, the guitar was returned to me as the purpleheart stringers had shrunk slightly more than the wenge, leaving a stepped finish on the neck. I re-sanded it and sent it back to the customer. I also did another guitar with a similar neck - same thing happened. This one was high gloss lacquered. With both I was using very well seasoned timber. It's a well known phenomenon that different timbers expand and contract at different rates. Therefore laminated necks will always have the inherent possibility of "seam sprout".
@@kiyanharchegani2588 Yes, as I said in the comment, different timbers expand and contract at different rates. As I also said, the choice of timbers was the customer's not mine.
Customer does not need to have knowledge of difference in timber and it's your job to inform them of potential danger of making lam neck especially without sealed hard poly finish.
@@swancrunch Yes, I did inform them at the design stage. They were well aware that it could happen, but chose to go with it. So it was no surprise to them when it did. I fixed it at no cost to the customer as part of standard after-sales care. It can also happen with a hard polyurethane finish. You'll never be able to stop two timbers with different expansion and contraction rates from forming a step at a glue joint whatever finish you put on it.
I have a 1968 Ibanez with a 3 pc neck. I believe it's maple and mahogany. The middle is raised slightly on the headstock, but not on the neck. I don't believe a raised Ridge on the neck would bother me but nicks that run perpendicular certainly do.
You have a good point at least with the last argument. It also help rejects an Idea I had from your previous video that was to try and do a laminated neck including carbonfiber instead of wood for some laminations
My guitar tech/luthier repaired the sprouting truss rod inlay/cover on the back of my Fender bass. He said he's come across the problem many times. I don't recall seeing a laminate neck on any of his builds.
I might not always agree with everything you say, mostly because I enjoy a different perspective, I can always appreciate what you've got to say and enjoy your perspective! This has definitely given me some things to think about! I harvest my own trees, log, mill, and do everything to them so I have every option available to me, and I still like the idea of lamination but much more in the traditional style you described vs the new ones that are clearly just about looks, I can't imagine more layers doesn't increase the risk of that seem development, I would think you would need woods that are pretty much the same hardness.
You nailed it, my friend. I plan to do a follow-up video where I will explain the importance of moisture content, wood acclimation, and matching different species of wood based on measured shrinkage.
@@HighlineGuitars you're speaking my language! I plan on putting out videos about the trees I'm harvesting off the forest floor, how I logged them, how long I waited to slab them, how I slabbed them, how I dried them outside, and oh yeah... Species of wood etc etc lol
@@HighlineGuitars I'll give you a hint at what might be to come... A super strong and available wood plentiful in northeast America... I've only known one person to use it for guitar necks... But he's one of the greatest guitar players of all time and an astrophysicist, so I doubt he used that wood species by mistake... Maybe not the "king" of neck woods but perhaps the...
@@HighlineGuitars I know he used oak in the body but I could have sworn I heard him say they used an oak mantle piece for the neck as well but google seems to say mahogany. I'll have to search for whatever interview I saw.
I've created a neck from rimu (red pine), using a tusq nut, 10° angle, gotoh locking tuners, and I wasn't happy with the tuning stability. This was quarter sawn too. I created another one from the same wood, this time using a 3-piece laminate neck, rotating the pieces to have one fairly straight grain and the outer ones book ended, same tusq nut, same locking tuners, same break angle. The result was much better tuning stability. That was scientific enough for me and at least for rimu, laminate is the way to go for me. I suspect a harder wood could have different results.
I think if we are using softwoods then lamination is probably essential. I think for hardwoods its probably overkill. I made my 1st test guitar out of pine radiata. I cut the piece of flatsawn timber down the middle rotated it and glued it back together for a 2 piece simulated quarter sawn. To my surprise it played well.
If I get one board from a tree, I'm only responsible for the use that I put that board to. If everyone else who got boards from that tree puts them all in the smoker, that's not on me. If anything, that's even more motivation to make the best use of my board. But in reality, trees are renewable, and wastage is expected. I make stripey necks because I like how they look, and if I can rip one flatsawn board into two quartersawn boards, with something pretty in the middle, then I'm happy. Not that quartersawn is necessarily more stable, it's something else I like the look of. My 14 year old bass with a 5 piece neck of maple and purple heart, is still straight and twist free as it ever was, and it's not had an easy life. It's all subjective and reasonable people can disagree. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
I'm a cabinet maker by trade and I went to college for woodworking, the course focused more on industrial woodworking. All that to say is I'm not a Luther, to me building, at least a solid body guitar looks like it would be fun to build once and maybe that's it. But this was a great video, glad the algorithm suggested it. What little I know about guitars and based on the fact that, and in videos I've watched, that you can get guitars where the neck is just held in place with a metal plate and some screws, we are not talking about huge amounts of tension. The difference in construction is probably negligible. The one thing I would challenge people on in woodworking in general is the need to flip grains to balance wood movement. At least for indoor only builds, with modern homes the yearly changes in humidity are negligible. Now with a guitar that may be out on the road or in all sorts of places all the time this may matter more.
I’m not a luthier but I am a woodworker. Plywood is much more stable compared to solid wood. That being said, I think I would prefer a really good single piece of wood for a neck over a laminated one. The esthetics alone would be enough for the single piece and well, seems like you need to tune a guitar every time you pick it up anyway no matter how it’s built. Finding that solid wood that is just right may be really challenging.
I own several maple/walnut/maple necks that are decades old and I cannot feel the seam. I have owned and played banjo necks that are a century old that are laminated from different species and you simply cannot feel the seam. I did play one banjo where I could feel the seam, but that builder used a veneer between the layers, and I could feel the veneer. And, of course, builders routinely glue an ebony or rosewood fingerboard on top of a mahogany or maple or other species neck, so gluing one species to another is pretty common.
Could you scarf joint one long 3/4 inch board and cut a second 3/4 inch board in two and stack those for the body width and glue it that way? It’s that strong?
I came to the same conclusion some years back, I used to laminate necks because I thought they looked cool but I made one with European maple purpleheart and wenge with veneers for pinstripes. They shrank at different rates and caused a seem you could feel, of course it can be sanded and refinished, especially since I oil and wax my necks but it’s a hard thing to tell your client that their expensive new guitar needs to be repaired months after delivery. Ever since I’ve switched to single boards with a scarf joint in the headstock. The only way I would laminate a neck these days is if the wood was the same species, preferably from the same board and air dried for many years, not fresh out of the kiln. I would also avoid using water based polyvinyl glue like tightbond and opt for polyurethane or epoxy instead.
Thanks for your ideas, all very god! Bottom line is build from one piece of wood that is straight, true and kiln dried. The grain must be straight wilt no knots or imperfections and all will work out just fine for years of exceptional playing. It really is that simple.
Thanks for all your insight and wonderful content, great video as usual. I would like to pose this question for pondering... or correct me if I'm wrong. Does humidity actually affect "finished" wood? I know that the answer seems very easy to just say yes, but I'm wondering if a fully finished piece of wood, guitar neck or otherwise, would be susceptible to moisture expansion or what not. I do expect sudden shifts in temperature to affect it, but I see humidity as moisture penetrating wood fibers and causing expansion... which seems like something that might not happen with a fully sealed finish, such as a glossed laquer, poly, epoxy, etc.
Changes in temperature alone doesn’t affect wood. When the temperature changes and the wood moves, it’s because of the associated change in humidity. In theory, sealing the wood should prevent it from absorbing moisture, but it doesn’t. Wood is made up of tiny cells which can fill with moisture like a sponge. To fully seal the wood, every cell needs to be filled. In most cases, that’s not possible. You may think your sealer is blocking moisture, but on a microscopic level, tiny voids in the sealer allow moisture to pass through to the wood. Applying sealer or finish only reduces the amount of absorption, but it can’t eliminate it.
Through your eyes I've probably gotten incredibly lucky, but I have multiple basses with laminated necks with different species of wood. The oldest one is from the late 70s and none have separating glue joints, neither are the joints noticeable by feel... They also seem to have much better stability, never have to set them up compared to my basses with solid necks (no matter what finish either), and they stay amazingly in tune. Besides my own observations, I can't really believe you said there's no research done to wood laminates... Its so incredibly well researched, ESPECIALLY in construction it's used for its stability. It's also not rare to see different types of woods being laminated together either in certain types of plywood etc. Whether it's a support beam in a building, the leg of a chair, or a guitar neck, the same idea still applies. The more different pieces a laminate consists of, the more solid and stable it will be. I vividly remember a hardwood floor we had in the past. It was made from solid wood, in the summers the boards would lie tightly together but in the winters gaps started to appear and some boards started to warp. After a while it got replaced by a laminate where every board was made of plywood with half a centimeter of veneer on top. We've never had wobbly floorboards ever again!
I was referring to research specific to laminated guitar necks. The building and construction industry is governed by regulations, which are enforced through a rigorous inspection process. The reason for this level of scrutiny is because people can be injured or killed if a building collapses. Therefore, the building and construction industry is limited in the choice of materials and construction techniques they can use. They have to use what has been proven to work. The guitar industry has no such limitations. If luthiers had to face such scrutiny, they would have to select from a limited, yet proven range of materials and techniques to make laminated necks. Since human life and safety isn't an issue with laminated guitar necks, a luthier will never have to face that level of scrutiny. That's good for creativity, but bad for quality assurance. I know for a fact that many of the big guitar companies involved in making laminated necks have done a lot of research on the subject. However, that research is proprietary and not available in the public domain. That's why Ibanez in 2022 can make laminated necks that work.
If I know that a neck will not warp because I have the 'right' wood... How do I know? Using laminated necks is stronger and more stable, but I also find them aesthetically nice, especially with contrasting woods. However, it is a fact that constructing them takes more time, and avoiding seams is a matter of craftsmanship. But I'm just a hobbyist and don't need to make a production to make a living. But I see that when you depend on it, time is money, so using non-laminated necks saves (a lot of) time.
Laminated necks are NOT necessarily stronger and more stable. There is a right way and a wrong way to laminate wood and if it isn't done properly, the results can be the opposite of strong and stable.
I have a guitar I built with Ambrosia Maple and Black walnut, after a year, I can feel the difference in the wood. You can feel the seems, they were smooth and flat when built, but now, they are just as you explained. I guess the One Piece Bass will not have that issue for sure!
I think there is at least some evidence, if only empirical, that a properly constructed laminate neck is more stable. The sheer number of Fenders with twisted one piece necks seems to support the theory. I have built a couple laminate necks that are perfect, zero issues. I have only built one single piece neck and even though the wood was properly dry, it twisted as the material was removed. Unseen knot inside the plank that didn't show until the neck was carved. I don't think it would have happened if there hadn't been something going on inside the board, but it does happen. These are just my experiences though. Of course the laminate is a lot more work, especially since I don't own a planer or a jointer, just a low angle jack plane, but the work, the pursuit of perfection is part of the fun right?
I think if laminated necks done right it should have no seems. Ibanez is good example. If the wood has been dry properly it should not expand when humidy changes. Using wood like roasted maple is even better. Although no theory supports laminated neck is stronger but if laminated are glued on multiple layers says 5 layers, it would means there are glues in between. We all know titebond once dry it is stronger than wood. So it make sense if the neck are stronger with laminated neck. I have seen 6 strings bass with laminated neck that are strong and doesn't move at all after many years.
Thanks for the video. It is indeed food for thought. I've been working on my first from-scratch guitar (admittedly very sporadically) for close to a year now. I know that's a long time but...I have day jobs and ADD and...other mental issues that make the prospect of making things from scratch seem pretty terrifying at times. The neck blank I've been working on is indeed laminated. I'm going to go ahead and finish it and see how it goes, but honestly up until this video my thought was "Why wouldn't you laminate, other than you just don't want to?". Not so much to suggest that I thought either technique was good or bad, I just never would have thought about possible pitfalls. I don't know if I will ever get to the point of making these things for any kind of living, but the thought of dealing with the expectations of customers when I feel like I know better (down the road of course, I'm still learning) is something that doesn't sound very fun to me.
Physics. Lamination does increase strength. However, with wood it has to be done properly. I've got a couple of Mexican Martins and they are a perfect example of Lamination. My cheapest of Martins is a work horse and in the winter it will go from inside temps to -10 and then back to inside temps with no problems, without a case. In the early days of Hamer guitars they had warpage problems with their one piece necks and solved the problem with two piece necks. If you have a single piece of good wood and it's cut properly then okay. Some players didn't care for the Stratobond neck of the Mexican Martins but I find the neck is fine. The Mexican Martins use a less expensive fretwire. After 10 months of playing I needed a fret job.
@@flyonwall360 I have. However, the pesky thing about physics is that it can both prove and disprove theories related to laminated necks. When you say "Lamination does increase strength," you are assuming that the proper materials and lamination techniques are always used. When it comes to guitar necks, that's not always the case. Physics can prove the case for laminated necks in a tightly controlled situation, but if the situation is less than ideal, all bets are off.
I’ve never noticed a stability, strength, or tone difference. I think it comes down to quality wood and construction. Done well either way seems to work well in my experience. I have a 20 year old Spector with the 3 piece maple neck and I feel no seem lines and a 20 year old fender and both are stable and resonant.
I feel you on pretty much everything but the sustainability but. To me that’s like saying you can’t say you’re using water responsibly because it all came from the same well and some people are using it differently. You have the amount you have. If you choose to use it in a way that makes use instead of waste, even down to 1/8” fancy strips in a neck that would have gone to the burn pile, you are most certainly working in a sustainable fashion. Good video.
Am I mistaken but don't you have a seam on all your necks with two different woods? What about the fret board? Using your logic won't those two woods move at two different rates with moisture? Just wondering. BTW, I enjoy your videos.
Yes, and sometimes I can feel the seams. However, they aren’t as obnoxious as along the back of the neck. And btw, I also hate skunk stripes for the same reason.
Yes the fretboard can move at a different rate. Generally a fret board moves (shrinks and expands) side to side so rather than a seam appearing it might result in the fret ends protruding more than they originally did. That assume a flat sawn fretboard. The neck timbers also shrink in the same way. You will feel the seam on the back of the neck ie the quarter sawn bit but you might not feel anything at the end of the head. Not sure its making sense but the timber generally shrinks/moves very little in total length.
I think the efficiency argument is pretty convincing. If I'm paying for a board, I want to use as much of it as I can. I also think they can look much nicer, especially when you contrast light and dark woods, but that's just my opinion. Fair enough if you prefer one-piece necks - to each their own.
You do nice very work. But I prefer laminated necks. I actually made a neck that is eight thin laminations of maple from repurposed rifle stocks. I put a nice thick ebony board on it It's the most stable neck I own. Let me know and I'll send pics.
There is a book.. called Understanding Wood, by R. Bruce Hoadley. Guitar makers are often lacking some basic wood technology knowledge. Of course these experiments have been done.. wood manufacturing goes way beyond making guitar necks. Lamination generally speaking are more stable.. but of course grade selection is important and grain orientation. You can see tables of different species and determine how much they expand and contract compared to others.. choosing woods with similar rates of expansion/contraction would be wise when laminating different species.
My Kiesel has a 5 piece. Maple, mahogany, maple, mahogany, maple. Thing stiff as a brick with the carbon fiber rods too. But theres no seams because it has paint and clearcoat over them.
You did provide food for thought. I never really gave it much thought that no actual scientific tests have been made, to prove or disprove those commonly accepted theories.
Pinblocks on pianos are also laminated these days. In some cheaper models the layers separate making the piano unplayable. Unfortunately my laminated headstock broke 3 times , contrary to the belief they are stronger, but it still stays in tune very well despite regluing. That is an 80s Aria ProThorsound by Matsumoka.
its not a question of if laminated wood is more strong or stable- because it is-proven time and again by scientific study. The question is whether there is a need for this strength in a guitar neck.
It is very refreshing to hear you say most people think their conclusions are factual, when they actually aren't. Nowadays there are few people who have the intelligence to realize they are not as smart as they think... Otherwise everyone would be successful AND IN HIGH DEMAND. :) In the real world true artists and craftsmen are the minority and NOT out to show the world how smart they are, but more to do what they enjoy doing for their own satisfaction and NOT notoriety or self promotion.
Just made my first laminated neck through guitar. I actually used mahogany purple heart and 2 thin soft flamed maple strips bc thats all i had and it looks beautifus Mainly i did it because i thought it would look cool. i think the correct moisture content probably has the most to do with stability. But im still a novice as i have only built4 full guitars. which all play amazing im happy to say!
Great topic, intelligently put across. Particularly loved your comment re online opinions, often given or taken as being fact, soo true. I personally love the look of laminated necks but I think your concerns are very valid. You should know, it’s what you do for a living. Time will tell. I’m sure this has gotten some owner’s (self included) running their thumbs down the back of their laminated necks 😂
It seems like you made a video about how laminated necks are just as great as using a solid piece of wood as long as you stick with the same type of wood.
Australian luthiers Trevor Gore and Gerard Gilet agree with you. In their book "Contemporary Acoustic Guitar" they say, "We do not laminate our necks as we find it offers no performance benefit over properly executed solid wood necks." They use straight grain pieces with little run-out, quarter-sawn (grain perpendicular to the fretboard). Figured woods can be less stable. Between the two of them, they have built over 2000 acoustic guitars. Gore has a Phd in engineering from Oxford.
Acoustic necks are thick enough that they don't need the lamination. For Ibanez, lamination grew out of necessity for building thinner and thinner necks.
Though I respect your opinion. Laminated wood is being used more and more in constructing of buildings because they have indeed proven that it's stronger than a standard piece of wood. As far as being environmentally responsible, I am responsible for the piece of wood in my hands. I may not be able to recycle every plastic bottle, but I can recycle those that cross my person... and that's actually the first step to being environmentally responsible. Significant results only happen when everyone does THEIR part.
Laminated wood used in construction is not subject to the same forces a guitar neck is exposed to. Also, laminated necks are not subject to inspections, codes, and regulations like laminated construction wood is.
Good points. My oldest guitar neck build is now 12 years old. Never built laminated, living 8km from Atlantic ocean and not a single twist or issue of any kind on mahogany or maple necks. With a decent fingerboard thickness and dual action trusrod, I guess my claims will still be true in another 12 years, let's see. And I kept the unused sides of all necks I built over time, so yes, I will consider using all these leftovers to laminate some more necks, mainly for economy reasons. Additionnaly, I own an Ibanez s540 Fujigen era, it's not laminated, single maple piece, only the classic 45° headstock cut, and it is straight as hell after 32 years. So... :-)
Yeah I have a guitar the second one with a three piece laminated slim D neck and it is just as much an disapointment as that earlier one was. The neck is reacting wildly to the invoirement. In this winter temparature and humidity is shifting a lot by the day and that neck is lingering about like an snake. I got three guitars that acts as it should bee, some grumpyness might occure at first but as played it will go. The common thing with these three are well made simple necks. One C shaped bat made of hard maple, one quarter sawn medium thick C shaped and again hard maple and a simular sized and shaped one made of Mahogany. Meaty, dry and stiff ones, no fret sprout nothing.
I noticed the seems on laminated neck too. It was on ibanez SR700 neck. When I'm selling that bass, the buyer make that flaw as bargaining point. Thank God i still able to sell it on the price that i wanted.
Rifle stocks and guitar necks are quite similar. They both have vibrating metal supported by wood under tension. All of these items have harmonic tendencies. The changes in humidity make solid rifle stocks the least reliable as movement in the wood can change the point of a bullet's impact, which is magnified by the distance it travels. Long range shooters normally use laminate, composit, carbon fiber or metal stocks to lessen movement from the stock. That flat open B note on your guitar from neck movement could translate to a bullet missing by several feet at 1000 yards from your rifle. This is esp. true when people store their Tele in the gun safe. :)
My 3- and 5-piece Ibanez necks are far more stiff then my 1-piece Strat necks. Tested by pushing agains the backside of the headstock and listen to the notes getting flat.
Great vid as always. But frankly, I do not need to know how other boards from a tree were used to do my part in sustainably using the boards I use as a luthier. I make both single piece and laminated necks as appropriate.
I have built nine guitars, and in eight of them all wooden parts were made from scratch in my shop. (I used one Mighty Mite neck in one guitar.). My experience is that the species of wood used is more important than wood grain orientation. I believe that Maple and cherry wood necks are the best, even if they are flat sawn.
For a floyd rose guitar laminated necks really are the way to go. Worked on many over the years. Laminated really helps neck stability. But i understand its not for everyone.
I just like the look of laminated guitars… until it starts to look like a box of crayons but a racing stripe vibe with some complimentary colors, I like em’! And I e taken plenty of sandpaper to single piece necks because I don’t like the finish so if a seam is detectable, I’ll sand that too. Great channel, sir!
Love the asthetic of a laminate neck, can get really crazy with different woods. But more than anything as long as the neck feels right laminate or single piece is all gravy with me. You got some skills there sir, always a good watch.
Excellent. 1st guitar i made was a T style for a friend. He wanted 3d flag painted. So didn't was exotic wood. Ref. Was a British luthier who surprisingly recommended Popular. Stable and light. Found 10x10x2' cutoff piece in a firewood pile. Took 6 weeks of outside /inside to see if it warped etc. Didn't so we made the Bodyand used Fender neck. Still as stable as 10 years ago. Weyerhaeuser rip gave us method to kiln dry at home . Since have used other woods and mixed them on bodies. Best thing they offer are anesthetics and better prices for the few we actually sold. Of course Stewmac etal tell us to keep guitars in case to protect from growth.
Most of the necks that I've built have been laminated, but that is mostly due to wood selection. Most hard maple i have access to is surfaced 4/4 so maximum possible thickness is no greater than 13/16. I've always thought that for lamination the optimum would be a 2 piece neck made from a 6/4 flat sawn board that would be ripped and book matched. That idea is not really from a lutherie perspective, but more from furniture/cabinet making practice. That is often considered the optimum way to make panels and wood tops. Most of the time though door panels and tops are not book matched, they're simply glued up with opposing grain. It only really becomes a mandatory thing on exterior door panels where the wood will be subject to major temp and humidity changes. If i was to bet on the theory of a laminated neck being superior , a 2 piece book matched neck would be the one construction i'd put money on. On the subject of joint expansion, not only can different species expand at different rates, the type of glue you use matters. Some glues cold creep over time. the glue itself expands, and will grow out of the joint. Tightbond II does this. I use the original Tightbond and have not seen it cold creep. The water resistant glues aren't necessary for guitar construction anyways, since the amount of water necessary for joint failure would cause catastrophic damage to the instrument before the glue joints fail.
I am not a fan of flatsawn lumber at all. It simple is not as dimensionally stable as quartersawn and there is tons of both anecdotal info as well as raw data to back that up. But that is not the point you are making, I know. Just wanted to toss in my 2 cents about that. You do keep referring to there being no evidence that laminated necks are more dimensionally stable than flatsawn. This may be true, however in civil and structural engineering, not to mention simple construction techniques, laminated lumber is categorically stronger and can withstand greater forces than single pieces of lumber. That is a fact, not an opinion. I believe that other builders use this thought process and apply it to the neck of a guitar, granted the directional forces are a bit different, but logically it seems to make sense. I do appreciate the idea about the expansion and contraction rates. In a sealed neck humidity should not make a difference, however there is another culprit... Temperature. Expansion and contraction rates for varying pieces of wood, even the same species, vary wildly! That is a great point and definitely something I am going to be looking out for. I have not been building very long but have been a guitar player for over 25 years and have both laminated and one-piece necks in my collection. I have never had any issue with my laminated necks, one of them is 17 years old with well over 8000 hours on it. I also have a 1991 one-piece quartersawn neck on my BC Rich USA that is the single most stable guitar neck I have ever played with well over 16000 hours on it just by myself since 1998. I appreciate your view and can see both sides of the debate here. Thank you.
For a laminated neck to be more stable it would need the grain to go in multiple directions like plywood. If the grain is going in the same direction it will only be slightly more stable then the weakest piece and slightly less stable than the strongest piece.
I thought you made a pretty good argument for why you prefer a single piece. Even though scientific testing has not been done on laminated guitar necks, I'm pretty sure plenty of testing has been done on other wooden constructions which show that laminated timbers are stronger. With that said, I see few guitar applications that would ever need anything approaching that strength. So, a single piece of hardwood is plenty strong enough from my limited experience. Regarding stability: I think if you are skilled and know timber well then you can probably select a piece of timber that you are almost certain will be stable. For people like me (who dont have that skill) it makes sense to laminate. Simply cutting the thinner pieces allow the stress in the timber to be released. Each piece then straightened and squared is glued together and it would seem logical (to me) that this laminated neck would react less to environmental changes etc. I do agree that laminated necks are more wasteful. Cutting and flattening loses material each time and the thinner the pieces the more wood is lost (as a percentage) each time. Seams: I made the mistake of selecting an unstable timber for my 1st proper build. I use spotted gum because its Local (Australia) and beautiful. I made a through neck with a 3 piece lamination. Maple with the spotted gum in the middle. The spotted gum moved and shrank a lot and now has a seam which I will indeed need to sand. I now know that spotted gum is never to be used on anything you want to be stable. Now I know more I'm using another Australian wood... blackwood wattle (Tasmanian Blackwood). Its a good match for maple and does not have any issues. So, yes seams can be an issue if the wrong timbers are combined. Making a laminated neck is much more time consuming, especially if you making it by hand.
Yes, I agree. Lots and lots and LOTS of scientific work has been done on laminated wood for engineered purposes. I believe the Ovation company did a lot of research on necks, based on their experience with the aircraft industry. Wooden Propellers are normally laminated. Laminated archery bows are undoubtedly more stable , reliable, and stronger than "self" bows. Guitar necks are just wood, under stress. No magic to it.
It's tough to find consistant straight grain of quartersawn maple these days and the prices are killers. It is easier for me to cut and plane strips of maple to the outsides of a neck blank where the grain wants to "cooperate " with what I need. Honestly, I will always opt for a lam neck, mando or guitar. I refuse to make banjo necks, however. Not my thing. Sorry. Bob
I respect your opinions but Bob Benedetto has a little more sway with me. I've been building laminated necks for decades, love the look and haven't experienced any of the seam issues you describe. The coefficient of expansion across various species is miniscule. No worries, keep doing what you're doing.
Read the comments and you’ll see it’s rather common. I had a friend who owned a Benedetto arch top. Beautiful guitar, but I could feel the seams in the neck.
I (aspiring guitar builder, just finished my first one) honestly think that neck stability should be a concern only for touring musicians, as for bedroom guitarists like myself it boils down to adjusting neck twice a year when seasons change. I have never experienced neck straying out on any of guitars that that I own (all single piece, both maple and mahogany necks are present) and the one that I built. Other topic. I made that neck out of two mirror matched pieces of reclaimed mystery wood I made body of (no idea what it is, looks kinda like mahogany but significantly darker and slightly tinted red/purple, and heavier ) and a strip of 18mm hi quality birch plywood in center (it’s quite expensive to source quality wood here in Israel) thus making it superlaminated of 21 layers lol. (Though 9 of them add nothing to strength of the neck as they are cross grain oriented) It holds .010 strings on 25” scale perfectly stable and does not shift with turning on and off the ac (and it’s Israeli summer btw :) )
Will see in a year or two where it goes, will the seams become an issue or (hopefully) not. But the looks, man, it looks really nice, and that’s the most (after being actually playable) important part of the electric guitar
This is not my opinion nor fact because I am not a professional, however I have found a train of thought online that would argue that any defects or weaknesses in a piece of wood will propagate itself along the grain and within a laminated neck when it meets the lamination will stop giving the lumber what would seem overall more strength and resistance toward breakage etc.
@HighlineGuitars I didn't claim it was truth as stated "this is not my opinion nor fact because I am not a proffesional" I was merely adding another element of depth to the conversation in the hopes to spark more interesting debate and research into the topic, as this was something I found that was not mentioned, many thanks for your reply and original video, any chance to understand more about the craft is a fantastic opportunity.
I don't bother with laminated - it costs me a few £ more for a quartersawn one-piece blank, but it's a lot cheaper in terms of labour than laminating a cheap board. I also think fewer glue joints is better, not that I have any scientific evidence to back that up. But it's all subjective.
Glue joins are generally considered to add strength (except for oily timbers). However, if you are using decent timber then its demonstrably not required.
Several people have commented about comparing the construction industry to guitar making. You certainly can, but you shouldn’t. The materials and techniques used to build structures for human habitation are highly regulated and subject to inspection. That limits what can be used and how its used to what has been tested and proven to work. That’s not the case with guitars. Because of this, some laminated necks work while many don’t.
A sandwich construction is one of the best known and most important principles in construction of any kind, 100% backed by physics and math.
There's no discussion that laminated is incredibly superior in strength and stability. My building engineering dad taught me that 50 years ago already.
Today I depend on it in the construction of super light single-end suspended X-ray tables which can hold 660 pds patients x 4 safety factor with minimum deflection. They simply cannot be designed from any material without the sandwich construction.
Sorry buddy, but you are really wrong about this one.
You absolutely missed the point. Laminations must be made correctly in order to work. If a laminated guitar neck is not made correctly, it won’t possess the advantages that are desired and in many cases, they will do the opposite of what is expected.
@@HighlineGuitars You spent the entire video stating how single slab necks are just as stable as laminated dittos. That's not correct. Besides it's not difficult to make a good lamination but even a poor one is easily superior to a single slab of wood.
@@poulwinther Prove it or I will delete your comment and hide you from my channel for violating my channel rules.
Man, you seem more fragile than the laminated necks you're falsely labeling. You're literally trying to shut down any opinions that aren't your own for the sake of your ego.
@@HighlineGuitars Feisty.
Thanks!
Thanks again for all your videos, I've been getting a lot out of them and enjoying watching them.
Thank you! Your contribution is very much appreciated!!!
I’ve seen many warped necks and they were all one piece. I can honestly say I’ve never seen a warped lam neck.
I have 2 ibanez guitars with laminated necks and I have a Les Paul and a SG I gig most Friday and Saturday nights and some Sunday afternoons in bars and I live in North of Chicago I have not had any noticeable rasing of the grain in the Ibanez necks. I have noticed all the necks have problems going from the car to the stage in the summer or winter. But it is never unplayable but I can notice the difference and I make the necessary trust rod adjustment.
Ibanez knows how to make laminated necks that's for sure.
Nice video. Actually its not hypothetical that properly laminiated wood is stronger,, stiffer and more stable, its simple physics in materials engineering. There have been studies on laminated woods (and other materials) versus single boards, not necessarily guitar related though but the principles are the same.
The early aerospace industry used laminated woods for varous parts because a properly laminated board is stronger and more stable than a single board. A propeller made of a single board will fail, so laminated propellers were used with great success.
As for as seams, I've actually never seen problems in better quality instruments having issues with seams but have seen this on lower priced instruments. Probably due to lower quality wood and poor seasoning prior to building. I have seen way more seam issues with fingerboards creeping on any instriment than multi laminated necks creeping and developing seams. Probably due to a bass fingerboard being about 2.5 inches wide, but the neck thickness being an inch or less.
Most of my experience is with basses. I've played for 40 years and have built many of my own basses. The additional string tension and longer necks need a stiff and stable neck. Solid carbon fiber like my Steinberger is my favorite as far as stiffness, then I'd rank laminated 2nd, quartersawn 3rd and flatsawn 4th.
Yes! they make laminate beams for houses that are so much stronger.
That is incorrect, A laminated Propellor is more prone to strike damage just like a CF Prop, whereas a solid beechwood prop typically can take a strike and be fine. Its simple physics the harder a material is the more brittle it is, there is no voodoo that can allow you to break simple rules of Chemistry and Physics sorry that just is not possible.
Where you are getting your info from?, engineered wood is not as strong as a solid piece its just CHEAPER TO MANUFACTURE, which is why the industry switched to them on top of them being more stiff it leads to more efficiency at the cost of their damage resistance, Beechwood has a certain amount of flex under force which allows it to take impacts and reverberate the energy through its body, a laminate will just shatter. Also A composite is completely different, CF is not the same nor does it have the same properties as wood or other composites.
So no it is not more stable and you have to always check them for crack damage in the seams due to temperature, Boeings 787 Dreamliner exterior skin is Composite CF and before and after every flight needs to be inspected for damage because it is so fragile. There are people today that still insist on running Wood props and insist on non composites and CF props because they can damage the engine when they crack from a strike.
Also I had a few issues with Laminate Ibanez Wizard necks, like he mentioned expansion and contraction and humidity. Some twisted as well due to density differences in materials the temperature changes cause the neck to warp over time, remember not all necks are sealed with finishes.
@@nocturnal101ravenous6 I totally agree about the stiffer material being more brittle. Tungsten carbide is super stiff but brittle. And roasted maple is stiffer than plain maple but is more brittle and prone to cracks from the limited experience i have with roasted maple. For a guitar or bass neck with 3 to 5 laminates, the brittleness won't be an issue, but it will benefit from better stability.
If a neck is laminated properly with properly aged wood, the neck should be more stable. And I've seen way more issues with fretboards developing noticeable seams than neck laminations. And I've seen way more twisted single piece necks than with laminates.
To take laminates to the extreme, Philip Kubicki ex-factor basses where made with around 32 laminates of 2mm quartersawn maple. I've never seen one of those necks warp, have stability issues or seam issues.
I pretty much only build basses. Stiffness is critical, much more so than guitars.
I do think some of the lower priced instruments with laminated necks is bad. If the wood is not properly dried and matched; i can see those having issues.
To make a good laminated neck takes a good deal of experience and time. It is more complicated for sure.
@@sunn_bass It will be when it falls over, and you don't understand its more prone to a crack remember the amount of tension you have it under....but see You called it there, its about understanding the risk and reward of using the materials in that way.
"I do think some of the lower priced instruments with laminated necks is bad. If the wood is not properly dried and matched; i can see those having issues." yes and that is the problem its cheaper to build a laminate neck, and manufacturers are trying to hit a price point, so the chances an off the shelf Guitar or Bass under $2500 is done properly is really a roll of the dice and up to the brand in assuring through QC measures and warranty.
I personally have seen too many go bad, as someone mentioned a 1 piece maple neck from Fender with the Walnut skunkstripe almost always has shrinkage or bulges.
@@nocturnal101ravenous6 Great conversation! There are so many ways to look at construction methods. Many pros and cons. Most of my experience is with bass necks. By default, the extra string tension and extra neck length pose issues that guitars don't have. So much boils down to the wood preparation, wood quality and the builder. I would never buy a cheap laminated neck because there are more factors to consider
The 3 necks I've seen issues with are Gibson, Fender and old Peavey bi-laminated necks.
For many Fender's the skunk strip is very noticeable. I've always wondered if that was an issue with how the walnut skunk stripe was dried, and not the design itself. This is one design I've never built, but I've owned a bunch of.
The old Peavey bi-laminated necks occasionally split on the glue seam. Most that I saw with issues was when I lived in Texas and heat softened the glue. Then again I've seen tons of heat issues back then with a lot of guitars being overheated cause people left instruments in their trunk (dumb). I have a 1986 Peavey patriot, their cheapest model from then, with no issues and no seam that is noticeable.
As for Gibsons, that 17 degree headstock angle is just begging to snap.
Speaking of angled headstocks, scarf joints are generally considered better than a single piece neck for angled headstocks. I have seen many scarf joints, rarely noticed the seam of the joint.
I love hearing different perspectives as everyone's experience is different. Even the climate where we live make a difference. I now live in Ohio and deal with making more adjustments to instruments than when i lived in the Gulf coast of Texas.
Cheers
I have made over 250 necks, approximately half is 1 piece, the other half is multi piece. I even used the same blanks to make 1piece as well as multi piece necks. Multi piece is, by far, the most stable. I need to adjust the trussrod with the single piece necks, all the time, even with carbon rods, where the multi piece necks require at least 5x less adjustment.
I also did some other tests with glue and how much they add to the overall weight of a neck, as a percentage of the neck. It's less than 0.5%. I think, I can handle a bit of glue in exchange for added stability.
If everyone made their laminated necks correctly, like you obviously do, I wouldn't have felt the need to make this video.
Well, I have to say that I have thousands necks made from one piece in my hands but majority of them had a problem, twist, warp, banana arching. . . . after a time. Laminated necks, I could see it don´t have it. This is my experience. A note- the negative things were happened on great cut wood too.
You have seen thousands of solid necks and the majority of them had issues?...were did you see this?
@@Jeremya74 I had to watch it again, You are not a fanatic, how some guys are, and I fully respect Your opinion and deep experiences You have. We make laminated necks just because those from one pieces inclined to get twist, one mont ago, We made a custom neck from one piece of roast maple from Canada. The neck "danced" a lot if there were carbon rods inside. Yes, no one knows how and where is a tensinon into the wood. Roman from BaCH Music, Czech
I like the look of multi-laminate necks more than anything. They might be more stable if done well. They are certainly not cheaper to manufacture even if the wood is cheaper. There are lots of cases where different species of wood are glued together without issue. Maple tops on mahogany, ES335 plywood guitars, inlays on fretboards, every acoustic guitar. I wouldn't think it would be a big issue if the wood is dried properly.
laminate necks are cheaper for my use case because i can reliably design and build them from most scraps that cost nothing. those carbon fiber rods he had are what really separates the men from the boys of strength and tuning stability. im scouring junk yards for wrecked cars with carbon fiber panels and trim to mill down for necks, those rods are expensive and sometimes fard to find
Always nice to have a luthier’s perspective on controversial subjects in the guitar industry.
It would interesting to see your perspective on neck through vs bolt on and set neck constructions
I haven't felt any glue seams in laminated necks, and that's here in Minnesota where we swing from dessert to jungle humidity twice a year.
Thank you. IF you feel a seam, it's literally 100ths of a millimeter or less. If that tiny increment affects your ability to play, maybe you should put the guitar down and work for NASA.
I do like the way laminated necks look with the contrasting woods. I had never considered that the changes over time could cause the seams to be felt. Good info!
As a Cigar Box Guitar builder, a stable and strong neck is of utmost importance to me, as CBG's normally have no truss rod. Therefore, I use quarter sawn oak, which stays very stable. But, more & more CBG builders are now laminating 4 mirrored contrasting woods together for their necks. All woodworkers know that a glued joint is always far stronger than the wood itself. Good video!
Thank you, sir. I also watched the following video about laminated necks. Does the same perspective you have also apply to necks for 7-string guitars? I would like to know that for the right decision making 🙏
Yes, absolutely!
@@HighlineGuitars thank you for answering, it saves me a lot of money not to spend it on an expensive laminated neck 😊 By the way, I like your new intro with the face close to the camera 😄👌🏻
Laminate 30 narrow rectangular strips of paper. Try bending it both with a flat-sawn and quarter-sawn orientation.
I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I can go either way for my purposes. However, if it is to be believed, that a Titebond glue joint is stronger than the original wood, how can a laminated neck fail to be more stable? Especially with that join multiplied over every square inch of it's application? I do believe it as i have ripped apart Titebond glue joints many times and it always rips up the fiber under the join. The point you made about different species expanding and contracting at different rates is well noted tho. I have to believe the conditions would have to be severe for that and might reflect faulty applications of adhesive. I mean that stuff is so rough to seperate once cured 😝
Imagining any shift over all those sides is mind boggling.
I never mentioned the glue. I know from many decades of experience how strong modern wood glue is. My issue was how the wood shrinks at different rates and can cause the seams to stick out. In fact, the glue will make it worse since the wood around it will shrink.
@@HighlineGuitars Theres also the issue of creep that is inherent in PVA glues, I wonder if using epoxy based glues for laminated necks would cut down on the issue of the seam becoming more prominent.
“Thats just like, your opinion man!”
Perhaps. But there are no studies that prove a laminated neck is better. And if you read through the comments, you'll see that many others have had problems with them that they thought shouldn't happen just because the neck was laminated. But they did happen because there is no required standard for making laminated necks. As a result, there are good ones and there are bad ones.
12:05 "I rarely shy away from controversy when it comes to my opinions on guitar building." No truer words have been spoken on the interwebs. ;-)
I would have pleased to hear you comment on the stability of roasted neck and how it is done. Thanks for your Video.
Properly roasted Maple makes for a very stable guitar neck.
You need to look up architectural engineering studies. That's where you'll find the science. Just how that directly applies to the forces on a guitar neck of course, is another story. Since it is magnitudes harder than lignin, the glue seams themselves are what adds the stiffness (increases the modulus of elasticity). It's not actually the orientation of the growth lines. As for stability, then epoxy is the adhesive for this job. Clamping laminations with a water based glue is problematic, especially dissimilar timbers. Epoxy will also have higher bonding strength with tropical hardwoods. However, in my experience it yields a dark glue line which may not look great with two light coloured timbers.
As for environmental concerns, well if we cared about the forests, we wouldn't be building guitars or really anything from new timber at all. The amount of wood in a guitar that's left from the original log is miniscule. Orientating laminations carefully to save some timber is an economic/business choice of large guitar manufacturers. It has nothing to do with the preservation of forestry. And is meaningless for small builders.
Stringing up a new neck and saying "well this is straight and has the perfect amount of relief" etc, is also meaningless. The real test of a guitar neck is 10+ years after it is made.
I have. The science, for reasons that should be obvious, doesn’t apply to guitar necks. I may have to make a follow up video to explain this to those who don’t understand why it doesn’t apply.
@@mattparise4463 They do follow the same science. It’s how the forces are applied that’s different. That should be obvious and in no need of explanation.
What about necks with different wood fingerboards? My 1969 Guild Studio 302 that I've owned since new hasn't done any noticeable moving around. Maybe I just can't see it because the neck is bound. I guess I should look at a 50's Tele or Strat that don't use binding.
I make laminated necks for only two real reasons. Whether it's good for the environment or not, it makes better use of my "scraps" so I don't have as much waste wood. Plus, they just look so good with different coloured pieces!
I build my own guitars. This problem with being able to feel the glue seams also occurs on a Fender style one piece neck with a skunk stripe. I typically use quarter sawn roasted maple with a walnut skunk stripe. In my experience, while not separating in any way, the seam after a time, can be felt in some builds requiring be to sand the area around the seam and refinish.
I build both regularly myself. When I do do a laminate neck, I mirror the grains. Makes sense to do it this way. Not sure if it is making a difference, just better to be safe than sorry. I do like to do three piece ones, the middle piece I will sometimes use a different board of the same species. this will many time result in a slight shade of color difference, which is what I am going for. Nice video by the way.
Mirroring helps!
I received as a 'spares repairs' 1967 Eko 12 string recently. Usual 5 piece laminated neck which was almost perfect after all this time. I installed a 'Bridge Doctor' due to sinkage and re-glued the detached back. The neck just needed a quick tweak of the truss rod and fret work but I think in this instance Eko had the right idea. I can though see where it may have an adverse effect in uneducated hands. Thanks for the vids. Steve
I make my mandolin necks using quarter sawn strips of the hardest dark wood I can find between strips of less dark hard wood like paduk with hard or curly white maple to the out sides. I will put a pair of carbon fiber (.250 X .200" ) "rod" inserts let into the neck blank which elimiminates the need for a truss rod. It probably is over kill, but these necks can withstand the heaviest string gauges that the top carved sound boards can tolerate. These suckers can be loud with the right amount of thickness. The thickness can be a hit or miss depending on the wood for the top. Each mando will be different, but after a while, each will be in the right ball park. Sort of like children from a large family. --each with uniques features. Ask Jerry Rosa for his ideas on the need for truss rods for mandolins. Bob.
I believe you are right. Carbon fiber probably is the best way to reïnforce a neck. It would be a solution to laminate the neck, with a one-piece underneath. So that you'd get the contrasting wood above but just one where you put your thumb. So you'd laminate like half the thickness of a neck and then glue on a piece underneath.
Id say we need to ask ppl like Jeff Kiesel and the likes who do beautiful multi peace necks and see what the reliability is long term. Bc Ive always loved the look, and I may not be corrected but hasnt fender always done this with the walnut strip? Im not a luthier, so idk that may not be what you mean by laminated neck. Id love to find out though.
Technically, the Fender skunk stripe is a cover and not a laminate. That being said, skunk stripes can suffer the same drawbacks as laminates in that the seams can sometimes be felt. Kiesel Guitars make excellent laminated necks because They know how to make them correctly.
@HighlineGuitars thank you for tue reply. It makes sense that when doing something to that level every part is critical from ensuring properly dried wood, to building it properly. I can definitely see inexperienced builders or sloppy/rush builders messing this up.
my first build is a 7 string fretless bass for myself and i couldn't imagine trying to find a solid piece of maple suitable.
A solid piece of Maple with carbon fiber reinforcement would work very well.
Spot on. From my own experience, I would second everything you said. I recently did a 5 piece laminated neck (customer's spec) wenge/purpeheart/wenge/purpleheart/wenge. It was sanded to a beautiful smooth finish and oiled with Crimson Guitars finishing oil (5 coats). Then I shipped it to the customer. about 3 months later, the guitar was returned to me as the purpleheart stringers had shrunk slightly more than the wenge, leaving a stepped finish on the neck. I re-sanded it and sent it back to the customer. I also did another guitar with a similar neck - same thing happened. This one was high gloss lacquered. With both I was using very well seasoned timber. It's a well known phenomenon that different timbers expand and contract at different rates. Therefore laminated necks will always have the inherent possibility of "seam sprout".
spot on? sounds like you used woods that have significantly different properties
@@kiyanharchegani2588 Yes, as I said in the comment, different timbers expand and contract at different rates. As I also said, the choice of timbers was the customer's not mine.
Customer does not need to have knowledge of difference in timber and it's your job to inform them of potential danger of making lam neck especially without sealed hard poly finish.
@@swancrunch Yes, I did inform them at the design stage. They were well aware that it could happen, but chose to go with it. So it was no surprise to them when it did. I fixed it at no cost to the customer as part of standard after-sales care. It can also happen with a hard polyurethane finish. You'll never be able to stop two timbers with different expansion and contraction rates from forming a step at a glue joint whatever finish you put on it.
I have a 1968 Ibanez with a 3 pc neck. I believe it's maple and mahogany. The middle is raised slightly on the headstock, but not on the neck. I don't believe a raised Ridge on the neck would bother me but nicks that run perpendicular certainly do.
You have a good point at least with the last argument.
It also help rejects an Idea I had from your previous video that was to try and do a laminated neck including carbonfiber instead of wood for some laminations
Lamination to me, is just decoration. Stability is a bonus.
Vintage wouldn't be a thing if one piece necks were a problem.
Stability as a bonus only happens when done correctly.
Why do you think they now use LVL beams instead of 2x10's?
To make guitar necks? 😉
@@HighlineGuitars that's a great response lol
@@remingtonatcheson8106 More on this in tomorrow's video.
My guitar tech/luthier repaired the sprouting truss rod inlay/cover on the back of my Fender bass. He said he's come across the problem many times.
I don't recall seeing a laminate neck on any of his builds.
I might not always agree with everything you say, mostly because I enjoy a different perspective, I can always appreciate what you've got to say and enjoy your perspective! This has definitely given me some things to think about! I harvest my own trees, log, mill, and do everything to them so I have every option available to me, and I still like the idea of lamination but much more in the traditional style you described vs the new ones that are clearly just about looks, I can't imagine more layers doesn't increase the risk of that seem development, I would think you would need woods that are pretty much the same hardness.
You nailed it, my friend. I plan to do a follow-up video where I will explain the importance of moisture content, wood acclimation, and matching different species of wood based on measured shrinkage.
@@HighlineGuitars you're speaking my language! I plan on putting out videos about the trees I'm harvesting off the forest floor, how I logged them, how long I waited to slab them, how I slabbed them, how I dried them outside, and oh yeah... Species of wood etc etc lol
@@HighlineGuitars I'll give you a hint at what might be to come... A super strong and available wood plentiful in northeast America... I've only known one person to use it for guitar necks... But he's one of the greatest guitar players of all time and an astrophysicist, so I doubt he used that wood species by mistake... Maybe not the "king" of neck woods but perhaps the...
@@arcarioandsons Are you referring to Brian May? The neck on his Red Special was Mahogany, which is common for guitar necks.
@@HighlineGuitars I know he used oak in the body but I could have sworn I heard him say they used an oak mantle piece for the neck as well but google seems to say mahogany. I'll have to search for whatever interview I saw.
I've created a neck from rimu (red pine), using a tusq nut, 10° angle, gotoh locking tuners, and I wasn't happy with the tuning stability. This was quarter sawn too. I created another one from the same wood, this time using a 3-piece laminate neck, rotating the pieces to have one fairly straight grain and the outer ones book ended, same tusq nut, same locking tuners, same break angle. The result was much better tuning stability. That was scientific enough for me and at least for rimu, laminate is the way to go for me. I suspect a harder wood could have different results.
I think if we are using softwoods then lamination is probably essential. I think for hardwoods its probably overkill. I made my 1st test guitar out of pine radiata. I cut the piece of flatsawn timber down the middle rotated it and glued it back together for a 2 piece simulated quarter sawn. To my surprise it played well.
If I get one board from a tree, I'm only responsible for the use that I put that board to. If everyone else who got boards from that tree puts them all in the smoker, that's not on me. If anything, that's even more motivation to make the best use of my board.
But in reality, trees are renewable, and wastage is expected. I make stripey necks because I like how they look, and if I can rip one flatsawn board into two quartersawn boards, with something pretty in the middle, then I'm happy. Not that quartersawn is necessarily more stable, it's something else I like the look of.
My 14 year old bass with a 5 piece neck of maple and purple heart, is still straight and twist free as it ever was, and it's not had an easy life.
It's all subjective and reasonable people can disagree. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
I'm a cabinet maker by trade and I went to college for woodworking, the course focused more on industrial woodworking. All that to say is I'm not a Luther, to me building, at least a solid body guitar looks like it would be fun to build once and maybe that's it.
But this was a great video, glad the algorithm suggested it.
What little I know about guitars and based on the fact that, and in videos I've watched, that you can get guitars where the neck is just held in place with a metal plate and some screws, we are not talking about huge amounts of tension. The difference in construction is probably negligible.
The one thing I would challenge people on in woodworking in general is the need to flip grains to balance wood movement. At least for indoor only builds, with modern homes the yearly changes in humidity are negligible. Now with a guitar that may be out on the road or in all sorts of places all the time this may matter more.
What’s your opinion on roasted maple necks? I’ve been told they are more resistant to changes in humidity.
Love them. I would use them more often if they were readily available at reasonable prices.
Great stability, but torrified wood is a tad more brittle
I’m not a luthier but I am a woodworker. Plywood is much more stable compared to solid wood. That being said, I think I would prefer a really good single piece of wood for a neck over a laminated one. The esthetics alone would be enough for the single piece and well, seems like you need to tune a guitar every time you pick it up anyway no matter how it’s built. Finding that solid wood that is just right may be really challenging.
What about a million ply endgrain plywood neck?
I own several maple/walnut/maple necks that are decades old and I cannot feel the seam. I have owned and played banjo necks that are a century old that are laminated from different species and you simply cannot feel the seam. I did play one banjo where I could feel the seam, but that builder used a veneer between the layers, and I could feel the veneer. And, of course, builders routinely glue an ebony or rosewood fingerboard on top of a mahogany or maple or other species neck, so gluing one species to another is pretty common.
Could you scarf joint one long 3/4 inch board and cut a second 3/4 inch board in two and stack those for the body width and glue it that way? It’s that strong?
I came to the same conclusion some years back, I used to laminate necks because I thought they looked cool but I made one with European maple purpleheart and wenge with veneers for pinstripes. They shrank at different rates and caused a seem you could feel, of course it can be sanded and refinished, especially since I oil and wax my necks but it’s a hard thing to tell your client that their expensive new guitar needs to be repaired months after delivery. Ever since I’ve switched to single boards with a scarf joint in the headstock. The only way I would laminate a neck these days is if the wood was the same species, preferably from the same board and air dried for many years, not fresh out of the kiln. I would also avoid using water based polyvinyl glue like tightbond and opt for polyurethane or epoxy instead.
Thanks for your ideas, all very god! Bottom line is build from one piece of wood that is straight, true and kiln dried. The grain must be straight wilt no knots or imperfections and all will work out just fine for years of exceptional playing. It really is that simple.
Thanks for all your insight and wonderful content, great video as usual. I would like to pose this question for pondering... or correct me if I'm wrong. Does humidity actually affect "finished" wood? I know that the answer seems very easy to just say yes, but I'm wondering if a fully finished piece of wood, guitar neck or otherwise, would be susceptible to moisture expansion or what not. I do expect sudden shifts in temperature to affect it, but I see humidity as moisture penetrating wood fibers and causing expansion... which seems like something that might not happen with a fully sealed finish, such as a glossed laquer, poly, epoxy, etc.
Changes in temperature alone doesn’t affect wood. When the temperature changes and the wood moves, it’s because of the associated change in humidity. In theory, sealing the wood should prevent it from absorbing moisture, but it doesn’t. Wood is made up of tiny cells which can fill with moisture like a sponge. To fully seal the wood, every cell needs to be filled. In most cases, that’s not possible. You may think your sealer is blocking moisture, but on a microscopic level, tiny voids in the sealer allow moisture to pass through to the wood. Applying sealer or finish only reduces the amount of absorption, but it can’t eliminate it.
Through your eyes I've probably gotten incredibly lucky, but I have multiple basses with laminated necks with different species of wood. The oldest one is from the late 70s and none have separating glue joints, neither are the joints noticeable by feel... They also seem to have much better stability, never have to set them up compared to my basses with solid necks (no matter what finish either), and they stay amazingly in tune.
Besides my own observations, I can't really believe you said there's no research done to wood laminates... Its so incredibly well researched, ESPECIALLY in construction it's used for its stability. It's also not rare to see different types of woods being laminated together either in certain types of plywood etc. Whether it's a support beam in a building, the leg of a chair, or a guitar neck, the same idea still applies. The more different pieces a laminate consists of, the more solid and stable it will be.
I vividly remember a hardwood floor we had in the past. It was made from solid wood, in the summers the boards would lie tightly together but in the winters gaps started to appear and some boards started to warp. After a while it got replaced by a laminate where every board was made of plywood with half a centimeter of veneer on top. We've never had wobbly floorboards ever again!
I was referring to research specific to laminated guitar necks. The building and construction industry is governed by regulations, which are enforced through a rigorous inspection process. The reason for this level of scrutiny is because people can be injured or killed if a building collapses. Therefore, the building and construction industry is limited in the choice of materials and construction techniques they can use. They have to use what has been proven to work. The guitar industry has no such limitations. If luthiers had to face such scrutiny, they would have to select from a limited, yet proven range of materials and techniques to make laminated necks. Since human life and safety isn't an issue with laminated guitar necks, a luthier will never have to face that level of scrutiny. That's good for creativity, but bad for quality assurance. I know for a fact that many of the big guitar companies involved in making laminated necks have done a lot of research on the subject. However, that research is proprietary and not available in the public domain. That's why Ibanez in 2022 can make laminated necks that work.
If I know that a neck will not warp because I have the 'right' wood... How do I know? Using laminated necks is stronger and more stable, but I also find them aesthetically nice, especially with contrasting woods. However, it is a fact that constructing them takes more time, and avoiding seams is a matter of craftsmanship. But I'm just a hobbyist and don't need to make a production to make a living. But I see that when you depend on it, time is money, so using non-laminated necks saves (a lot of) time.
Laminated necks are NOT necessarily stronger and more stable. There is a right way and a wrong way to laminate wood and if it isn't done properly, the results can be the opposite of strong and stable.
I have a guitar I built with Ambrosia Maple and Black walnut, after a year, I can feel the difference in the wood. You can feel the seems, they were smooth and flat when built, but now, they are just as you explained. I guess the One Piece Bass will not have that issue for sure!
Maybe that has been caused by the woods humidity, wich was too high when glued
I think there is at least some evidence, if only empirical, that a properly constructed laminate neck is more stable. The sheer number of Fenders with twisted one piece necks seems to support the theory. I have built a couple laminate necks that are perfect, zero issues. I have only built one single piece neck and even though the wood was properly dry, it twisted as the material was removed. Unseen knot inside the plank that didn't show until the neck was carved. I don't think it would have happened if there hadn't been something going on inside the board, but it does happen. These are just my experiences though. Of course the laminate is a lot more work, especially since I don't own a planer or a jointer, just a low angle jack plane, but the work, the pursuit of perfection is part of the fun right?
Properly constructed is the key so many miss.
Great video. Keep up the great work!
I think if laminated necks done right it should have no seems. Ibanez is good example. If the wood has been dry properly it should not expand when humidy changes. Using wood like roasted maple is even better. Although no theory supports laminated neck is stronger but if laminated are glued on multiple layers says 5 layers, it would means there are glues in between. We all know titebond once dry it is stronger than wood. So it make sense if the neck are stronger with laminated neck. I have seen 6 strings bass with laminated neck that are strong and doesn't move at all after many years.
My reasons aren't very scientific or controversial, but I do it because it looks cool.
Thanks for the video. It is indeed food for thought. I've been working on my first from-scratch guitar (admittedly very sporadically) for close to a year now. I know that's a long time but...I have day jobs and ADD and...other mental issues that make the prospect of making things from scratch seem pretty terrifying at times. The neck blank I've been working on is indeed laminated. I'm going to go ahead and finish it and see how it goes, but honestly up until this video my thought was "Why wouldn't you laminate, other than you just don't want to?". Not so much to suggest that I thought either technique was good or bad, I just never would have thought about possible pitfalls. I don't know if I will ever get to the point of making these things for any kind of living, but the thought of dealing with the expectations of customers when I feel like I know better (down the road of course, I'm still learning) is something that doesn't sound very fun to me.
Physics. Lamination does increase strength. However, with wood it has to be done properly. I've got a couple of Mexican Martins and they are a perfect example of Lamination. My cheapest of Martins is a work horse and in the winter it will go from inside temps to -10 and then back to inside temps with no problems, without a case. In the early days of Hamer guitars they had warpage problems with their one piece necks and solved the problem with two piece necks. If you have a single piece of good wood and it's cut properly then okay. Some players didn't care for the Stratobond neck of the Mexican Martins but I find the neck is fine. The Mexican Martins use a less expensive fretwire. After 10 months of playing I needed a fret job.
What are the physics?
@@HighlineGuitars Wow, how long have you been building guitars?
@@flyonwall360 20 years. Now, about those physics… 😉
@@HighlineGuitars Do your own homework.
@@flyonwall360 I have. However, the pesky thing about physics is that it can both prove and disprove theories related to laminated necks. When you say "Lamination does increase strength," you are assuming that the proper materials and lamination techniques are always used. When it comes to guitar necks, that's not always the case. Physics can prove the case for laminated necks in a tightly controlled situation, but if the situation is less than ideal, all bets are off.
I’ve never noticed a stability, strength, or tone difference. I think it comes down to quality wood and construction. Done well either way seems to work well in my experience. I have a 20 year old Spector with the 3 piece maple neck and I feel no seem lines and a 20 year old fender and both are stable and resonant.
I like how people pretend that treatment and maintenance have 0 impact on what happens to a guitar neck.
I feel you on pretty much everything but the sustainability but. To me that’s like saying you can’t say you’re using water responsibly because it all came from the same well and some people are using it differently. You have the amount you have. If you choose to use it in a way that makes use instead of waste, even down to 1/8” fancy strips in a neck that would have gone to the burn pile, you are most certainly working in a sustainable fashion. Good video.
Am I mistaken but don't you have a seam on all your necks with two different woods? What about the fret board? Using your logic won't those two woods move at two different rates with moisture? Just wondering. BTW, I enjoy your videos.
Yes, and sometimes I can feel the seams. However, they aren’t as obnoxious as along the back of the neck. And btw, I also hate skunk stripes for the same reason.
Yes the fretboard can move at a different rate. Generally a fret board moves (shrinks and expands) side to side so rather than a seam appearing it might result in the fret ends protruding more than they originally did. That assume a flat sawn fretboard. The neck timbers also shrink in the same way. You will feel the seam on the back of the neck ie the quarter sawn bit but you might not feel anything at the end of the head. Not sure its making sense but the timber generally shrinks/moves very little in total length.
I think the efficiency argument is pretty convincing. If I'm paying for a board, I want to use as much of it as I can. I also think they can look much nicer, especially when you contrast light and dark woods, but that's just my opinion. Fair enough if you prefer one-piece necks - to each their own.
You do nice very work. But I prefer laminated necks. I actually made a neck that is eight thin laminations of maple from repurposed rifle stocks. I put a nice thick ebony board on it It's the most stable neck I own. Let me know and I'll send pics.
There is a book.. called Understanding Wood, by R. Bruce Hoadley.
Guitar makers are often lacking some basic wood technology knowledge. Of course these experiments have been done.. wood manufacturing goes way beyond making guitar necks.
Lamination generally speaking are more stable.. but of course grade selection is important and grain orientation.
You can see tables of different species and determine how much they expand and contract compared to others.. choosing woods with similar rates of expansion/contraction would be wise when laminating different species.
My Kiesel has a 5 piece. Maple, mahogany, maple, mahogany, maple. Thing stiff as a brick with the carbon fiber rods too. But theres no seams because it has paint and clearcoat over them.
Give it time. But if you want a guarantee the seams won't sprout, never move the guitar from it's present location.
You did provide food for thought. I never really gave it much thought that no actual scientific tests have been made, to prove or disprove those commonly accepted theories.
I like the purple heart in the neck.
Pinblocks on pianos are also laminated these days. In some cheaper models the layers separate making the piano unplayable. Unfortunately my laminated headstock broke 3 times , contrary to the belief they are stronger, but it still stays in tune very well despite regluing. That is an 80s Aria ProThorsound by Matsumoka.
@@willrichtor my guitar stoll plays well despite its adventures of doom, in fact, the most reliable and in tune guitar I have ever owned
its not a question of if laminated wood is more strong or stable- because it is-proven time and again by scientific study. The question is whether there is a need for this strength in a guitar neck.
Good thoughts.
It is very refreshing to hear you say most people think their conclusions are factual, when they actually aren't. Nowadays there are few people who have the intelligence to realize they are not as smart as they think... Otherwise everyone would be successful AND IN HIGH DEMAND. :) In the real world true artists and craftsmen are the minority and NOT out to show the world how smart they are, but more to do what they enjoy doing for their own satisfaction and NOT notoriety or self promotion.
I just subscribed. Well done nice channel
Awesome, thank you!
Just made my first laminated neck through guitar. I actually used mahogany purple heart and 2 thin soft flamed maple strips bc thats all i had and it looks beautifus Mainly i did it because i thought it would look cool. i think the correct moisture content probably has the most to do with stability. But im still a novice as i have only built4 full guitars. which all play amazing im happy to say!
Great topic, intelligently put across. Particularly loved your comment re online opinions, often given or taken as being fact, soo true. I personally love the look of laminated necks but I think your concerns are very valid. You should know, it’s what you do for a living. Time will tell. I’m sure this has gotten some owner’s (self included) running their thumbs down the back of their laminated necks 😂
Well said!
It seems like you made a video about how laminated necks are just as great as using a solid piece of wood as long as you stick with the same type of wood.
You're on the right path.
I have a cheap ibanez bass with a lam neck. Yes. I can feel the seems. I still like it though.
Australian luthiers Trevor Gore and Gerard Gilet agree with you. In their book "Contemporary Acoustic Guitar" they say, "We do not laminate our necks as we find it offers no performance benefit over properly executed solid wood necks." They use straight grain pieces with little run-out, quarter-sawn (grain perpendicular to the fretboard). Figured woods can be less stable. Between the two of them, they have built over 2000 acoustic guitars. Gore has a Phd in engineering from Oxford.
Acoustic necks are thick enough that they don't need the lamination.
For Ibanez, lamination grew out of necessity for building thinner and thinner necks.
Fair enough, lamination should be stronger but for that application it would be overkill.
Though I respect your opinion. Laminated wood is being used more and more in constructing of buildings because they have indeed proven that it's stronger than a standard piece of wood. As far as being environmentally responsible, I am responsible for the piece of wood in my hands. I may not be able to recycle every plastic bottle, but I can recycle those that cross my person... and that's actually the first step to being environmentally responsible. Significant results only happen when everyone does THEIR part.
Laminated wood used in construction is not subject to the same forces a guitar neck is exposed to. Also, laminated necks are not subject to inspections, codes, and regulations like laminated construction wood is.
Good points. My oldest guitar neck build is now 12 years old. Never built laminated, living 8km from Atlantic ocean and not a single twist or issue of any kind on mahogany or maple necks. With a decent fingerboard thickness and dual action trusrod, I guess my claims will still be true in another 12 years, let's see. And I kept the unused sides of all necks I built over time, so yes, I will consider using all these leftovers to laminate some more necks, mainly for economy reasons. Additionnaly, I own an Ibanez s540 Fujigen era, it's not laminated, single maple piece, only the classic 45° headstock cut, and it is straight as hell after 32 years. So... :-)
Yeah I have a guitar the second one with a three piece laminated slim D neck and it is just as much an disapointment as that earlier one was. The neck is reacting wildly to the invoirement. In this winter temparature and humidity is shifting a lot by the day and that neck is lingering about like an snake. I got three guitars that acts as it should bee, some grumpyness might occure at first but as played it will go.
The common thing with these three are well made simple necks. One C shaped bat made of hard maple, one quarter sawn medium thick C shaped and again hard maple and a simular sized and shaped one made of Mahogany. Meaty, dry and stiff ones, no fret sprout nothing.
I noticed the seems on laminated neck too. It was on ibanez SR700 neck. When I'm selling that bass, the buyer make that flaw as bargaining point. Thank God i still able to sell it on the price that i wanted.
You need to look at Rifle Stocks that are laminated . More stress on firing Big Bore than on guitar neck. Glued wood strips always stronger.
Not even remotely similar.
Rifle stocks and guitar necks are quite similar. They both have vibrating metal supported by wood under tension. All of these items have harmonic tendencies. The changes in humidity make solid rifle stocks the least reliable as movement in the wood can change the point of a bullet's impact, which is magnified by the distance it travels. Long range shooters normally use laminate, composit, carbon fiber or metal stocks to lessen movement from the stock. That flat open B note on your guitar from neck movement could translate to a bullet missing by several feet at 1000 yards from your rifle. This is esp. true when people store their Tele in the gun safe. :)
How did you get through this without video uttering the phrase "Hippie Sandwich."
My 3- and 5-piece Ibanez necks are far more stiff then my 1-piece Strat necks. Tested by pushing agains the backside of the headstock and listen to the notes getting flat.
@@julianbeyer733 Ibanez knows how to make laminate necks the right way.
@@HighlineGuitarsyeah they know how to✌🏻
Great vid as always. But frankly, I do not need to know how other boards from a tree were used to do my part in sustainably using the boards I use as a luthier. I make both single piece and laminated necks as appropriate.
Precisely.
I have built nine guitars, and in eight of them all wooden parts were made from scratch in my shop. (I used one Mighty Mite neck in one guitar.). My experience is that the species of wood used is more important than wood grain orientation. I believe that Maple and cherry wood necks are the best, even if they are flat sawn.
For a floyd rose guitar laminated necks really are the way to go. Worked on many over the years. Laminated really helps neck stability. But i understand its not for everyone.
I just like the look of laminated guitars… until it starts to look like a box of crayons but a racing stripe vibe with some complimentary colors, I like em’! And I e taken plenty of sandpaper to single piece necks because I don’t like the finish so if a seam is detectable, I’ll sand that too. Great channel, sir!
Love the asthetic of a laminate neck, can get really crazy with different woods.
But more than anything as long as the neck feels right laminate or single piece is all gravy with me.
You got some skills there sir, always a good watch.
Yeah when I make Lam necks I dont kid myself. Its only for an artistic aesthetic and thats it
I'm pretty sure that Mayones, Skervesen, Blackat, Vik, Vamdermaij, Barlow, Framus, ect. Would disagree.
It doesn't matter whether they agree or disagree. What matters is what their customers think and I have heard stories.
@@HighlineGuitars have heard stories from whom?
@@rxdoctordaddy1795 anecdotal evidence.
Excellent. 1st guitar i made was a T style for a friend. He wanted 3d flag painted. So didn't was exotic wood. Ref. Was a British luthier who surprisingly recommended Popular. Stable and light. Found 10x10x2' cutoff piece in a firewood pile. Took 6 weeks of outside /inside to see if it warped etc. Didn't so we made the Bodyand used Fender neck. Still as stable as 10 years ago. Weyerhaeuser rip gave us method to kiln dry at home . Since have used other woods and mixed them on bodies. Best thing they offer are anesthetics and better prices for the few we actually sold. Of course Stewmac etal tell us to keep guitars in case to protect from growth.
Most of the necks that I've built have been laminated, but that is mostly due to wood selection. Most hard maple i have access to is surfaced 4/4 so maximum possible thickness is no greater than 13/16. I've always thought that for lamination the optimum would be a 2 piece neck made from a 6/4 flat sawn board that would be ripped and book matched. That idea is not really from a lutherie perspective, but more from furniture/cabinet making practice. That is often considered the optimum way to make panels and wood tops. Most of the time though door panels and tops are not book matched, they're simply glued up with opposing grain. It only really becomes a mandatory thing on exterior door panels where the wood will be subject to major temp and humidity changes. If i was to bet on the theory of a laminated neck being superior , a 2 piece book matched neck would be the one construction i'd put money on. On the subject of joint expansion, not only can different species expand at different rates, the type of glue you use matters. Some glues cold creep over time. the glue itself expands, and will grow out of the joint. Tightbond II does this. I use the original Tightbond and have not seen it cold creep. The water resistant glues aren't necessary for guitar construction anyways, since the amount of water necessary for joint failure would cause catastrophic damage to the instrument before the glue joints fail.
I am not a fan of flatsawn lumber at all. It simple is not as dimensionally stable as quartersawn and there is tons of both anecdotal info as well as raw data to back that up. But that is not the point you are making, I know. Just wanted to toss in my 2 cents about that.
You do keep referring to there being no evidence that laminated necks are more dimensionally stable than flatsawn. This may be true, however in civil and structural engineering, not to mention simple construction techniques, laminated lumber is categorically stronger and can withstand greater forces than single pieces of lumber. That is a fact, not an opinion.
I believe that other builders use this thought process and apply it to the neck of a guitar, granted the directional forces are a bit different, but logically it seems to make sense.
I do appreciate the idea about the expansion and contraction rates. In a sealed neck humidity should not make a difference, however there is another culprit... Temperature.
Expansion and contraction rates for varying pieces of wood, even the same species, vary wildly! That is a great point and definitely something I am going to be looking out for. I have not been building very long but have been a guitar player for over 25 years and have both laminated and one-piece necks in my collection. I have never had any issue with my laminated necks, one of them is 17 years old with well over 8000 hours on it. I also have a 1991 one-piece quartersawn neck on my BC Rich USA that is the single most stable guitar neck I have ever played with well over 16000 hours on it just by myself since 1998.
I appreciate your view and can see both sides of the debate here. Thank you.
My 50+ year old Ovation has 5 laminates. Neck is still stable but yes I can feel the seams. Never bothered me.
For a laminated neck to be more stable it would need the grain to go in multiple directions like plywood. If the grain is going in the same direction it will only be slightly more stable then the weakest piece and slightly less stable than the strongest piece.
I thought you made a pretty good argument for why you prefer a single piece. Even though scientific testing has not been done on laminated guitar necks, I'm pretty sure plenty of testing has been done on other wooden constructions which show that laminated timbers are stronger. With that said, I see few guitar applications that would ever need anything approaching that strength. So, a single piece of hardwood is plenty strong enough from my limited experience.
Regarding stability: I think if you are skilled and know timber well then you can probably select a piece of timber that you are almost certain will be stable. For people like me (who dont have that skill) it makes sense to laminate. Simply cutting the thinner pieces allow the stress in the timber to be released. Each piece then straightened and squared is glued together and it would seem logical (to me) that this laminated neck would react less to environmental changes etc.
I do agree that laminated necks are more wasteful. Cutting and flattening loses material each time and the thinner the pieces the more wood is lost (as a percentage) each time.
Seams: I made the mistake of selecting an unstable timber for my 1st proper build. I use spotted gum because its Local (Australia) and beautiful. I made a through neck with a 3 piece lamination. Maple with the spotted gum in the middle. The spotted gum moved and shrank a lot and now has a seam which I will indeed need to sand. I now know that spotted gum is never to be used on anything you want to be stable. Now I know more I'm using another Australian wood... blackwood wattle (Tasmanian Blackwood). Its a good match for maple and does not have any issues. So, yes seams can be an issue if the wrong timbers are combined.
Making a laminated neck is much more time consuming, especially if you making it by hand.
Yes, I agree. Lots and lots and LOTS of scientific work has been done on laminated wood for engineered purposes. I believe the Ovation company did a lot of research on necks, based on their experience with the aircraft industry. Wooden Propellers are normally laminated. Laminated archery bows are undoubtedly more stable , reliable, and stronger than "self" bows. Guitar necks are just wood, under stress. No magic to it.
Well expressed and interesting.(@CheapSkate)
It's tough to find consistant straight grain of quartersawn maple these days and the prices are killers. It is easier for me to cut and plane strips of maple to the outsides of a neck blank where the grain wants to "cooperate " with what I need. Honestly, I will always opt for a lam neck, mando or guitar. I refuse to make banjo necks, however. Not my thing. Sorry. Bob
plywood is irrefutably more stable than a solid wood, thus why wouldn't the same apply to guitar necks?
Plywood necks don't sell very well.
@@HighlineGuitars that is also irrefutable.
I respect your opinions but Bob Benedetto has a little more sway with me. I've been building laminated necks for decades, love the look and haven't experienced any of the seam issues you describe. The coefficient of expansion across various species is miniscule. No worries, keep doing what you're doing.
Read the comments and you’ll see it’s rather common. I had a friend who owned a Benedetto arch top. Beautiful guitar, but I could feel the seams in the neck.
I (aspiring guitar builder, just finished my first one) honestly think that neck stability should be a concern only for touring musicians, as for bedroom guitarists like myself it boils down to adjusting neck twice a year when seasons change. I have never experienced neck straying out on any of guitars that that I own (all single piece, both maple and mahogany necks are present) and the one that I built.
Other topic. I made that neck out of two mirror matched pieces of reclaimed mystery wood I made body of (no idea what it is, looks kinda like mahogany but significantly darker and slightly tinted red/purple, and heavier ) and a strip of 18mm hi quality birch plywood in center (it’s quite expensive to source quality wood here in Israel) thus making it superlaminated of 21 layers lol. (Though 9 of them add nothing to strength of the neck as they are cross grain oriented) It holds .010 strings on 25” scale perfectly stable and does not shift with turning on and off the ac (and it’s Israeli summer btw :) )
Will see in a year or two where it goes, will the seams become an issue or (hopefully) not.
But the looks, man, it looks really nice, and that’s the most (after being actually playable) important part of the electric guitar
This is not my opinion nor fact because I am not a professional, however I have found a train of thought online that would argue that any defects or weaknesses in a piece of wood will propagate itself along the grain and within a laminated neck when it meets the lamination will stop giving the lumber what would seem overall more strength and resistance toward breakage etc.
Please share your evidence that this is true. No anecdotes, just real science.
@HighlineGuitars I didn't claim it was truth as stated "this is not my opinion nor fact because I am not a proffesional" I was merely adding another element of depth to the conversation in the hopes to spark more interesting debate and research into the topic, as this was something I found that was not mentioned, many thanks for your reply and original video, any chance to understand more about the craft is a fantastic opportunity.
I don't bother with laminated - it costs me a few £ more for a quartersawn one-piece blank, but it's a lot cheaper in terms of labour than laminating a cheap board. I also think fewer glue joints is better, not that I have any scientific evidence to back that up. But it's all subjective.
Glue joins are generally considered to add strength (except for oily timbers). However, if you are using decent timber then its demonstrably not required.
I have a device that can measure the sustain of a neck at the headstock.
So do I. 👂
idk man I work construction and kinda seems like the difference between an lvl and a piece of kiln dried 2x4
and that has been proven by quite a bit of engineers and material science dudes. but hey who know.....
Several people have commented about comparing the construction industry to guitar making. You certainly can, but you shouldn’t. The materials and techniques used to build structures for human habitation are highly regulated and subject to inspection. That limits what can be used and how its used to what has been tested and proven to work. That’s not the case with guitars. Because of this, some laminated necks work while many don’t.