As a trained cabinetmaker and guitar repairperson i approve this video! I've often wondered why many guitar are not sealed even lightly in body cavities, all exposed wood will absorb moisture. I changed tuners on one of my guitars and a little moisture came in during some sanding, cracked the finish, lesson learned!! Hard finished don't flex.
As far as glue goes. gluing up laminates I have used urea formaldehyde glue which is used for gluing veneers and reduces creep which reduces the tendency to twist and warp . You make some excellent points .
Good points but having made several laminated necks with different wood combinations like maple, walnut, cocobolo, wenge, mahogany and others, I have never had seams that became uneven or that I could feel with my hand. I live in Canada with humid summers and dry winters. The only finish I would put on them is tung oil, osmo, tru-oil or something like that. Laminated necks takes a few more steps to do, as do scarf joints. I just like the look and stability I can get with even a 3 piece lam (like one I built 20years ago that has never moved).
Nice overview. As a player it doesn't bother me if a neck is one piece or laminated. As a builder and as a collector, I prefer a laminated neck, I just like the way it looks and can set the guitar apart. Something about the laminate neck just sets it apart and just kind of defines it as a custom made or hand crafted guitar. I don't think there is a good vs bad; right vs wrong thing here. As player, builder, collectors; we all like different things. That's what makes the "Guitar World" such a great place.
I love it. I’m only on my 7th build but I’m a longtime woodworker. My father taught me a lot about stability. I love the scientific and engineering points you touched on.
I have a fender from the 80's with a flatsawn neck with zero issues . I also have one from the 60's and you can tell it is severely rift sawn by looking at the grain flow through the edge of the headstock and again zero issues no twist what so ever . My guess is older lumber used was better air dried and kiln dried and more stable than today's rush it out the door attitude . I build a lot of jewelry boxes and keepsake boxes and such and noticed that Ican buy the straightest lumber I can at the hardwood dealers and get it home, sticker it for a couple of weeks in the shop, mill it on the jointer and the next morning it is back twisted again. If I buy from a small hardwood sawmill and kiln operation that the owner cares about the way he cuts the logs and dries the lumber I get very stable lumber but limited to oaks , pecan , hackberry , and the occasional walnut around here .
What has varied from time to time is the patience in the manufacturing process to select and cure woods. If its 5% or under moisture content, it should be stable. The very cheap process of kiln drying produces the marketable "roasted maple" at almost the same low price as regular maple which is more stable, which also means less waste, which is why it went from a premium feature that included an upcharge to available on many import models.
Some builders also specific using only flatsawn wood for neck as the truss rod is installed to fight against string tensions, flatsawn wood can be advantage for fighting against left or right movement in the neck which has no tool to prevent that.
Great video, very interesting. Question: you mentioned the possibility of moisture creeping into the neck by any small unfinished spots. Do you pre-finish your truss rod slot, to seal against moisture? Or are you less concerned because of the use of stiffening rods?
As a player and hobbyist repair/modification/restoration guy I never had any problem with laminated necks. But I think the craze around them is a bit overrated. A good and well-made guitar neck will do its job, no matter if its made of one or more pieces.
I tend to make all of my necks as laminated necks. It does allow for grain orientation and aesthetics . Given that all of the wood I use is recycled, it also increases my choice of suitable woods. I have experienced seam sprout a couple of times 💜💜 Sarah
I own a Gibson J15. It has a laminated neck (maple with a dark walnut in the middle). I do humidify the guitar inside the case ranging between 38-48%. There is a very slight seam feel that does not bother me. I do like the look though.
Very interesting, it seems that correct assembly is perhaps more important than laminate vs single piece? I know that Ibanez's early Japanese made Wizard necks (about the thinnest you can find on a mass production guitar) were originally one piece, but they had issues with cracking around the locking nut screws. They switched to 5pc maple/walnut necks and added a veloute and this seems to have eliminated the issue. I've got some pretty old laminated wizard necks but haven't observed any seam sprout as yet, fingers crossed it stays that way.
Very interesting. You correctly note that the building construction data (using static loads) is inconsistent with the dynamic stresses in guitars. That said, the laminating processes designed for aircraft use are specifically designed for dynamic loads. Natural solid materials, IMO, are going to have a lot more dynamic variability than properly done laminated material. I certainly agree with all of your "best practice" opinions regarding lamination procedures - mirroring, moisture content, grain orientation, etc. Using mismatched woods for lamination is a recipe for weird, unexpected results. Really great video.
That split and flip was used by Peavey on their first guitars, the T-series. I've looked at a lot and got some where the seam is very hard to notice but I also saw some that sprouted while it's from same piece of wood. That cosmetic flaw might not sell like that. Great video, lots of nuggets!
Did a repair on a peavey bass recently and was baffled to Fin halfwaardetijd through that it was infact a 2 piece neck. You could only really see it in the right light and angle.
Hi Chris, apologies if you’ve covered this in a previous video. Can you give a steer on what make and model of moisture meter you use. I know I need to spend a good amount of money but would like to avoid just buying the most expensive if not totally necessary.
4 out 6 of my guitars have laminated necks, no issues so far, I have never hear of an issue with laminated necks until now, I do notice on my single piece neck instruments that they are easier to bend not sure how to explain it, but still no issue there either... either way, this is a really good informative video, since I failed miserably doing a laminated neck I´ll try a single piece. :D
I think this video started to scratch the surface of an issue I have been trying to hunt down and resolve not a laminated neck seam issue but 2pc fret board and neck issue . This only seem to happen or more then likely I only notice it with figured maple and figured maple being joined together. This specific case fret board and neck both being figured maple I always a seam that I have not been able to prevent after the glue up has settled and dried. This week the same thing happen to me. I took the extra time to ensure both pieces where flat before and after milling the fretboard and neck. During the glue up no visible seem(not using insane amount glue) next morning after the glue set visible seem on one of the sides.) I have also varied the clamping from using 1 inch spring clamps and f clamps on the heel area to using a radius block for clamping, same results. Is this something that just happens with certain woods and during the glue curing it stiffens the wood and can cause a movement ? Softer wood such as soft maple neck and soft maple fingerboard (both figured) compared to something like maple neck and ebony will be more prone to it ? or this is not normal and something in my process is still off / not accounting for something ? It been driving me nuts and and while you can not even really feel the seam I can not overlook it and consider it unprofessional since I am making it.
Great overview for laminating any wood project and pretty much matches my experiences with gluing wood together. All my guitars have boring clear satin finish because that is what I like and can, at times, be tough to get in some guitar models. It's plain but it feels good to me. Laminated necks can look cool and make a neck stronger, but buyer beware, make sure it is for the strength purpose. There is an old fishing saying: there are lures that catch fish and lures that catch fishermen. Don't be the guitarsman that gets caught.
www.google.com/search?q=carbon+fiber+strip+for+guitar+necks&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS749US749&oq=carbon+fiber+&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j69i59j35i39j0i512j69i65j69i60l3.8566j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Use epoxy to glue them in. I plan to demonstrate the process in a future video.
Thanks! I noticed -after checking out some links- that some luthiers still install a truss rod, despite the carbon reinforcements. Isn't that overkill?
You are a 100% right. The problem with laminated necks is that you don’t know how the guitar will be handled. If they travel a lot and take the guitar with them differences in temp and humidity will affect the glue, it makes sense and it happens. And tell me about it when it’s a necktru or set neck 🤦🏻♂️. Also I’ve come across people complaining about the price difference between laminated and single piece, I mean seriously 🤷🏻♂️ Some think that since they can buy a Harley Benton or a donner for $200 can get the same price for a handmade instrument, well
re laminated neck gluing: marine epoxy such as west systems is really good as it does not introduce moisture/water in wood. That is why luthiers like Greenfield use epoxy to glue the fretboard. Stability!
You really know your onions Chris! I need to gen-up on those expansion and contraction rates myself! I personally think you're pretty much spot on with your assessment of laminated necks (IMHO). But I just thought I'd throw in a few observations of my own, for what it's worth; 1) Totally agree that the annual ring (end grain) directions of the laminations should mirror each other. But personally I don't have a problem with even numbers of laminations, for the simple reason that most of the thickness of the centre lamination is cut away with the truss rod channel, just leaving a thin 3-5mm thick sliver of wood covering the truss rod channel at the back of the neck (which takes most of the strength out of it). This is something companies like Fender do all day long with their "skunk stripe", and I don't believe there are major issues with warpage as a result. 2) Again, totally agree that using aliphatic resin/PVA/Titebond/"wood glue" which is water based, on a multiple laminate neck is introducing lots of moisture back into your carefully acclimatised/dried timber. So its always worth remembering that there IS an alternative adhesive you can use which isn't water based. Polyurethane. I use this on pretty much all my joints in all my builds, and have found it to be superior to PVA types (for many reasons). I only save the PVA for longer open times. You do have to be organised to use it (especially on a laminated neck) because the open time is only about 10 minutes. But once it's together it's not coming apart again, and you're not introducing extra moisture into the timber (as it's "solvent based"). 3) I have found that "seam sprout" is not just an issue of different expansion and contraction rates acting on different timbers, giving a "step" between different timbers. It can also be down to the adhesive layer shrinking far less than the surrounding laminations, so it's actually the glue line you can feel, not just the step between the timbers. I'm not trying to teach anyone to "suck eggs", I'm just throwing in some observations, if it helps anyone. Brilliant vid Chris (as ever)!
The type of headstock can be a factor in how the neck is constructed. Fender-style headstocks are more easily (econmically) constructed from a single piece of lumber. An angled headstock from a single piece of lumber will require a scarf joint which has its own issues. Or a much thicker (read expensive) piece of lumber if made from a single piece. A laminated blank made from 3+ pieces of 1/4 sawn lumber MAY be less costly than a single piece of similar sized lumber. Someone fact check me on the above and feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I am not a fan of Fender style headstocks. All my headstocks are angled: scarf joint or laminate. Too much waste you make an angled headstock from a 3x3 piece of maple. Cheers Chris, keep the good content coming.
@@HighlineGuitars I do "Gibson" style necks (not "flat" Fender ones, I think you do that). In order to avoid a HUGE chuck of wood for the neck and headstock, I laminate with thinner pieces containing the headstock. I could switch it around and use a scarf joint instead with one piece for the neck. So I was just curious in my conditions, would you think a laminated neck with headstock attached or a one piece neck with a scarf joint headstock. Or just always use a huge chunk of wood so I can get neck and headstock without laminating or scarf joint.
@@oakhurstaxe6392 I do both angled and flat headstocks. For years I used a scarf joint for my angled headstocks, but these days I use a thick enough blank to get out of the hassle of making the scarf. I don't think it matters for what you want to do. Either way will work equally well. Of course, it all depends on how well the work is done.
@@HighlineGuitars Cool, thanks for the info on how you handle that. I always like to hear how others do things, and I think your work is pretty top notch.
Question from a guy who hasn’t yet built his first guitar, , , , does all I’ve just listened to apply to fretboards? - Adding a fretboard to a neck, is after all a lamination, or is it ? - Do different rules apply? Or am I just over thinking it? . . . .
Yes, I recommend inspecting your fingerboard for cupping, twisting etc. It will exert some force on the neck once it is laminated on. Using a stable fingerboard helps keep the neck integral. Frets can also exert some force on the neck - if the slots are narrow and the fret tangs are pushing outward as a result, there can be back-bow, usually easy to correct with the truss rod, but best avoided by cutting the slots just so.
+1 on you gluing comments. As thin as possible. Brushed on like you said, or even better rolled on. Glue does not stick to itself very well, you can take a blob of dried glue and pull it apart with your fingers. The ideal bond is when there's just enough glue to form a lignin that holds the wood fibers of the two boards together, like the rest of the wood itself. I've seen many of the "glue-slathering videos" you describe, and the only thing they accomplish is that the thing holding the two boards together is glue sticking to itself, which has very little shear strength. A proven funiture makers technique for stock preparation before lamination is to plane a very slight hollow in one of the two boards, which close up under clamping. It is rare that two flat surfaces are so flat that they do not have a tiny gap somewhere that no amount of clamping force can get rid of.
Every time I see one of those globbed on glue jobs I think, every bit of glue that is running out of the side is the same amount that is in your truss rod channel.
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A quick question/though; do you think it could be that it is getting closer that you would do a neck from some composite or fully from carbon fibre rather than use any wood? Or is it still a tabu among players and luthiers? And are there materials that are easy enough to work on?
Composites is what I do for a living. Curious if you decided to make a composite neck ( not difficult or costly at all) would you still do a wood fretboard or would that be composite also?
Very interesting. You know, it's strange, when I was younger and I was playing and teching/repairing my own gear in the late 80s/90/2k, it was considered more correct to have a 1 piece quarter sawn neck. All my expensive guitars had them and were marketed as being at an advantage for being one piece. The excepted wisdom was that yes, straight quarter sawn was less susceptible to warping and twisting. Now, set the time machine to 2017 and beyond, after a life of family and all that other rubbish that gets in the way of playing, and suddenly, all these top end instruments have multi-laminate necks. I was perplexed. I mean, it doesn't take a lot of thought to understand that mirroring the laminates will counter any potential twists, etc, but I just assumed it was a money making thing - use off cuts of easier to source wood in thinner strips and use that to make necks. Just market them in a way to get people believing they are now the "better" neck technology. After all, all these players fell for the whole tone wood rubbish, so why not? I guess ultimately, it doesn't really matter as long as it's done right with good quality materials, go for what you think looks/feels good.
One of my prefered guitar is a SG (a 2002 MIK Epiphone one). The neck is one piece, albeit the head is scarf-jointed. This neck allow some deflection, and i can do some chord bend/vibrato by torquing it with my hand, and i'm not particulary strong. To me it's a feature, not a defect. A super stiff digging bar style neck is a "dead" neck. The wood seems to be some sort of mahogany, and flat sawn to my understanding as i can see (very faintly) the growth ring feathering down the length of the neck. After 20 years of regular use the neck show no sign of deformation whatsoever.
You need to speak with Ken Parker , Parker Guitars 🎸. He makes I think probably the Best neck there is or at least in the top 2or 3 . I’m pretty sure his neck are laminate. He is a Great Master Luthier .
The building construction/materials have requirements/code laws etc… that have absolutely nothing to do with guitar necks…. pssst… guitar necks just aren’t that important, true story! If you’re gluing a fingerboard on a neck, by definition you’re are most certainly laminating a guitar neck. How do you decide what orientation and dimension CFRP to “laminate” into your guitar necks to stabilize the anisotropic properties of your guitar necks? It’s a materials engineering rabbit hole isn’t it?
A laminated neck will be as strong as a solid piece of wood. Modern wood glue is stronger than the wood. Your valid point is wood movement and how you can feel the seam due to environment change.
@@HighlineGuitars Alot of what you are saying is basic wood working. I build furniture for a hobby, so what I hear is just normal practices. Guess that is why I just assume you laminate it well. Joint the wood, good flat surfaces and such. ANd if you want stability yes quarter sawn is best. Wood movement is more even.
In Ancient times Artisan's who worked with Wood understood so much more .. without computers lol Viking ships were made & regularly repaired /maintained by natural resins & wood filler / wedges So that the Ship was considered to be a living thing .. In Tudor Times & long b4 The practice of growing Trees & trimming them to shape was common .. Westminster Cathedral etc .. Sadly the Mary Rose was a very stupid Design lol as were many of the Ships of the Spanish Armada .. or perhaps we would all be speaking more spanish .. // Anyway as much as I love the idea I am 67 & have increasingly pains in my hands .. so aside from doing a bit of basic T.L.C . to a Guitar & some Fretwork etc that is all I can manage .. My Quandary is at what point do I give up on a much loved but no longer reliable instrument ( damaged by a poor wannabe Luthier practicing on my guitar ) .. in other words .. when do I ( as with computers etc ) just give up & buy a new & playable instrument ?? ... at this time the best use I could make of my old acoustic is to have it measured for a replacement ?? .. or just use it for slide & open Tunings etc .. ??? .. I have spent years buying cheap guitars & cheaper tools & learning on the job that I am not a natural craftsman lol .. But I do not regret the deeper understanding I have gained from trying ..I did have some small success .. But if you were ( which I know you are not anymore ) in the business of repair .. perhaps you could make a short Film called " When to Give up on a Guitar " lol cheers ..
I have been making guitars for a long time now. I have made about 200 necks over the years. I would say about 95% of them are lam. necks. I have work on a lot of guitars with one piece necks. I over the year have found it interesting that a lot of one piece neck have a lot of problems in twisting and bowing. Yes, they were 1/4 saw necks. So a one piece is not foolproof. I have and have sold guitars that are now almost 20 years old that I have made with lam necks with no issues. I agree that when a neck is glues up, it should rest for some time before using or cutting. But you know, as well as I do, not all wood is created equal. You can use the same wood from the same slab of wood and have a lot of thing change in the making of a neck or even guitar body. Wood is wood, and no one can say this or that is correct or not. I have had some high end 1/4 saw wood go bad in the making of necks. I have used woods that are air dried, kelm dried and so on. Out of all the necks I have made, I had 2 that went bad on me before I put them on a guitar. I did everything to what you call right way of doing things. But yet they went bad, Why? Because it's wood. We take a chance every time we glue up or carve some wood. It's part of making things out of wood. I bet if people were honest, even Cab makers have experienced cab doors warping on them, no mater how they fallowed to "rules". I understand your concerns in this. But I think you're making people worry too much. It's like when I first got started in making guitars. There were a lot of YT videos out there that had me so afraid of turning a truss rod in fear of messing up one. WOW! Yes, they all sounded like they were the experts in everything to know about truss rods. To this day, I have never broken a truss rod or stripped one out. And that is at least 1000 or more truss rod adjustments over the years. Here is my take on all this. You have found what works best for you. I, too, do what works best for me. If anyone is wanting to make guitars from scratch, it is going to be a lot of trial on error before they find what works best for them. Making guitars should be fun to do and not be worrying about so many things. I wish I could see videos on the good things of guitar making and not so many videos that seem to be against guitar making. I see videos of people who are against the hobby builder. Why is that? Even after all the years I have been making guitars (now retired) I have never put people down from wanting to build a guitar from parts or from scratch. Heck, when I first started, I didn't even own or know how to user a router. My first neck I made was made by hand, with lots of sand paper and chisels. It is still on a cig gar box guitar I made. That was over 20 year ago. I even put in a homemade truss rod. Oh, it was made from oak. LOL! And it, too, was a lam neck. Well, again, do what works best for you and buy the things you like, and I'll do the same. It's all good!
There's no right answer. It's case by case, choice by choice. Kinda like whether or not you're damaging the spirit and resonance of the wood by using power tools to remove the majority of the waste material... Good videos! 👍
re torrified wood: it is great but far too often the wood is torrified in too high temperature resulting to brittle and weak wood. A lot of researc has been made on this topic by top class Finnish guitar makers such as Juha Lottonen.
You make a claim near the end of the video that many of the single piece necks you build perform better than multi laminate necks. What, in this example, defines better? How are you measuring "better" objectively?
If it were impregnated into carbon fiber material, yes, it would. However as an adhesive intended to laminate pieces of wood, not it would not. Epoxy can't stop the expansion and contraction of wood due to changes in humidity.
Lol so to avoid seam sprout arising from climate abuse, you'll tolerate the risk of the same climate abuse delaminating the fretboard as the neck twists and warps? We're talking only about subjective building preferences. The laminated neck prevented the warping and twisting as one piece might have expanded or contracted. Its almost pointless with a good roasted maple neck blank, (emphasis on good) but sure improves the torsional strength of mahogany as well as its shear strength. Honestly when I can cut pieces for 2 5 piece necks in 90 minutes with just a bandsaw and planer, I'm not losing too much time over doing it. Carbon rods certainly substitute their tensional and shear strength, but I'm surprised how expensive the rods are: best deal I've seen from a US dealer has been $15/rod. I can get the roasted birdseye maple neck blank for $15 CDN... I'm putting carbon rods in two basses in order to get away with thinner neck profiles. One is a Rickenbacker clone where I'm trying to cure its classic defect of the 4001 neck not being stable and the 4004 being too fat to play. The walnut and maple lamination is traditional. Same thing applies to the 2nd bass, based on a Thunderbird design. My Gibson thunderbird has an amazing neck but it does need some regular truss rod adjustments I can avoid. So, if cost is a factor, wood being wood being wood, laminate is equal to one piece for wood cost. If time is a factor, one piece wins. If appearance is a factor, laminate often wins. If stability is the main factor, I agree that carbon rods and laminate necks are basically equal, and both better than a one piece, mainly because of all the things you may be doing to mitigate against any invisible defects in the wood blank.
You know, when You will make a guitar for usd2.000,- and use one piece neck, You can be sure with a problem.....if You take a long time guarantee. Our real experience with necks made from one piece. We can see expensive older Fenders, etc. with bad necks too.
Flat sawn quarter sawn. Unless it's Birdseye maple. Don't agree with maple. Made 2 flatsawn maple necks with no problems. Mahogay ya quarter. Roasted maple. R s may be better.
Aristides Guitars have carbon fibre epoxy necks filled with arium as the core. I haven't heard anything negative about those so far. Never seen or played one myself. They are relatively close though. I might give them a visit in the winter.
As a trained cabinetmaker and guitar repairperson i approve this video! I've often wondered why many guitar are not sealed even lightly in body cavities, all exposed wood will absorb moisture. I changed tuners on one of my guitars and a little moisture came in during some sanding, cracked the finish, lesson learned!! Hard finished don't flex.
As far as glue goes. gluing up laminates I have used urea formaldehyde glue which is used for gluing veneers and reduces creep which reduces the tendency to twist and warp . You make some excellent points .
Good points but having made several laminated necks with different wood combinations like maple, walnut, cocobolo, wenge, mahogany and others, I have never had seams that became uneven or that I could feel with my hand. I live in Canada with humid summers and dry winters. The only finish I would put on them is tung oil, osmo, tru-oil or something like that.
Laminated necks takes a few more steps to do, as do scarf joints. I just like the look and stability I can get with even a 3 piece lam (like one I built 20years ago that has never moved).
Thank you for this one. I'm rethinking how I'm doing ny laminated body through.
Nice overview. As a player it doesn't bother me if a neck is one piece or laminated. As a builder and as a collector, I prefer a laminated neck, I just like the way it looks and can set the guitar apart. Something about the laminate neck just sets it apart and just kind of defines it as a custom made or hand crafted guitar. I don't think there is a good vs bad; right vs wrong thing here. As player, builder, collectors; we all like different things. That's what makes the "Guitar World" such a great place.
thank you . question please would epoxy be a better choice for that ?
For what?
I love it. I’m only on my 7th build but I’m a longtime woodworker. My father taught me a lot about stability. I love the scientific and engineering points you touched on.
Very true about the glue. I've made that mistake, and watched as the fretboard swelled and formed a seam that could be felt.
Thanks as always for the detailed analysis. I'd love to see that video if you're able to locate that link you were talking about.
The link is in the video where I mentioned it at 11:35:00
@@HighlineGuitars Thanks, got it.
I have a fender from the 80's with a flatsawn neck with zero issues . I also have one from the 60's and you can tell it is severely rift sawn by looking at the grain flow through the edge of the headstock and again zero issues no twist what so ever . My guess is older lumber used was better air dried and kiln dried and more stable than today's rush it out the door attitude . I build a lot of jewelry boxes and keepsake boxes and such and noticed that Ican buy the straightest lumber I can at the hardwood dealers and get it home, sticker it for a couple of weeks in the shop, mill it on the jointer and the next morning it is back twisted again. If I buy from a small hardwood sawmill and kiln operation that the owner cares about the way he cuts the logs and dries the lumber I get very stable lumber but limited to oaks , pecan , hackberry , and the occasional walnut around here .
What has varied from time to time is the patience in the manufacturing process to select and cure woods. If its 5% or under moisture content, it should be stable. The very cheap process of kiln drying produces the marketable "roasted maple" at almost the same low price as regular maple which is more stable, which also means less waste, which is why it went from a premium feature that included an upcharge to available on many import models.
Some builders also specific using only flatsawn wood for neck as the truss rod is installed to fight against string tensions, flatsawn wood can be advantage for fighting against left or right movement in the neck which has no tool to prevent that.
Great video, very interesting. Question: you mentioned the possibility of moisture creeping into the neck by any small unfinished spots. Do you pre-finish your truss rod slot, to seal against moisture? Or are you less concerned because of the use of stiffening rods?
That's a good question. I seal the slot at the adjustment nut, but I usually don't worry about the rest of it, However, I may in the future!
Great video!!! Really well explained, and especially the glue part. Thanks!
As a player and hobbyist repair/modification/restoration guy I never had any problem with laminated necks. But I think the craze around them is a bit overrated. A good and well-made guitar neck will do its job, no matter if its made of one or more pieces.
Do these considerations (grain orientation, T/R ratios, etc) also apply to the combination of woods used for neck and fretboard?
Yes.
Very well articulated
I tend to make all of my necks as laminated necks. It does allow for grain orientation and aesthetics
. Given that all of the wood I use is recycled, it also increases my choice of suitable woods. I have experienced seam sprout a couple of times 💜💜 Sarah
About the clamping pressure what is the suggested torq?
Just enough to see some glue start to squeeze out.
I own a Gibson J15. It has a laminated neck (maple with a dark walnut in the middle). I do humidify the guitar inside the case ranging between 38-48%. There is a very slight seam feel that does not bother me. I do like the look though.
Great video
Very interesting, it seems that correct assembly is perhaps more important than laminate vs single piece? I know that Ibanez's early Japanese made Wizard necks (about the thinnest you can find on a mass production guitar) were originally one piece, but they had issues with cracking around the locking nut screws. They switched to 5pc maple/walnut necks and added a veloute and this seems to have eliminated the issue. I've got some pretty old laminated wizard necks but haven't observed any seam sprout as yet, fingers crossed it stays that way.
Also, vacuum clamping has become my go to for fretboard glue ups, making sure not to use too much wood glue.
Very interesting. You correctly note that the building construction data (using static loads) is inconsistent with the dynamic stresses in guitars. That said, the laminating processes designed for aircraft use are specifically designed for dynamic loads. Natural solid materials, IMO, are going to have a lot more dynamic variability than properly done laminated material. I certainly agree with all of your "best practice" opinions regarding lamination procedures - mirroring, moisture content, grain orientation, etc. Using mismatched woods for lamination is a recipe for weird, unexpected results. Really great video.
In my experience, a neck can be too strong. I want my truss rod to be needed. I want be able adjust the relief to what I want.
I despise having to adjust my neck and tremello
great info
That split and flip was used by Peavey on their first guitars, the T-series. I've looked at a lot and got some where the seam is very hard to notice but I also saw some that sprouted while it's from same piece of wood. That cosmetic flaw might not sell like that.
Great video, lots of nuggets!
Did a repair on a peavey bass recently and was baffled to Fin halfwaardetijd through that it was infact a 2 piece neck. You could only really see it in the right light and angle.
Hi Chris, apologies if you’ve covered this in a previous video. Can you give a steer on what make and model of moisture meter you use. I know I need to spend a good amount of money but would like to avoid just buying the most expensive if not totally necessary.
I use a Klein ET40 pinless meter.
4 out 6 of my guitars have laminated necks, no issues so far, I have never hear of an issue with laminated necks until now, I do notice on my single piece neck instruments that they are easier to bend not sure how to explain it, but still no issue there either... either way, this is a really good informative video, since I failed miserably doing a laminated neck I´ll try a single piece. :D
I think you’re right. You can sand the entire neck into dust before those seams disappear.
I think this video started to scratch the surface of an issue I have been trying to hunt down and resolve not a laminated neck seam issue but 2pc fret board and neck issue . This only seem to happen or more then likely I only notice it with figured maple and figured maple being joined together. This specific case fret board and neck both being figured maple I always a seam that I have not been able to prevent after the glue up has settled and dried. This week the same thing happen to me. I took the extra time to ensure both pieces where flat before and after milling the fretboard and neck. During the glue up no visible seem(not using insane amount glue) next morning after the glue set visible seem on one of the sides.) I have also varied the clamping from using 1 inch spring clamps and f clamps on the heel area to using a radius block for clamping, same results. Is this something that just happens with certain woods and during the glue curing it stiffens the wood and can cause a movement ? Softer wood such as soft maple neck and soft maple fingerboard (both figured) compared to something like maple neck and ebony will be more prone to it ? or this is not normal and something in my process is still off / not accounting for something ? It been driving me nuts and and while you can not even really feel the seam I can not overlook it and consider it unprofessional since I am making it.
I have a guitar that is splitting at one of the walnut stripes in the neck.
The standard is the reputation of the builder
Great overview for laminating any wood project and pretty much matches my experiences with gluing wood together. All my guitars have boring clear satin finish because that is what I like and can, at times, be tough to get in some guitar models. It's plain but it feels good to me. Laminated necks can look cool and make a neck stronger, but buyer beware, make sure it is for the strength purpose. There is an old fishing saying: there are lures that catch fish and lures that catch fishermen. Don't be the guitarsman that gets caught.
Where does a person find these stiff carbon sticks, and what do you glue them with (if at all)?
www.google.com/search?q=carbon+fiber+strip+for+guitar+necks&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS749US749&oq=carbon+fiber+&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j69i59j35i39j0i512j69i65j69i60l3.8566j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Use epoxy to glue them in. I plan to demonstrate the process in a future video.
Thanks! I noticed -after checking out some links- that some luthiers still install a truss rod, despite the carbon reinforcements. Isn't that overkill?
You are a 100% right. The problem with laminated necks is that you don’t know how the guitar will be handled. If they travel a lot and take the guitar with them differences in temp and humidity will affect the glue, it makes sense and it happens. And tell me about it when it’s a necktru or set neck 🤦🏻♂️.
Also I’ve come across people complaining about the price difference between laminated and single piece, I mean seriously 🤷🏻♂️ Some think that since they can buy a Harley Benton or a donner for $200 can get the same price for a handmade instrument, well
re laminated neck gluing: marine epoxy such as west systems is really good as it does not introduce moisture/water in wood. That is why luthiers like Greenfield use epoxy to glue the fretboard. Stability!
How the heck can I mask off a les paul neck binding where the frets are over the binding to clear it? Help! My tape just won’t stay down!
I spray the clear over the binding and the frets. After it has dried, I scrape the clear off of the frets with a razor blade.
Nice t-shirt. The Shining is a great movie.
You really know your onions Chris! I need to gen-up on those expansion and contraction rates myself! I personally think you're pretty much spot on with your assessment of laminated necks (IMHO). But I just thought I'd throw in a few observations of my own, for what it's worth;
1) Totally agree that the annual ring (end grain) directions of the laminations should mirror each other. But personally I don't have a problem with even numbers of laminations, for the simple reason that most of the thickness of the centre lamination is cut away with the truss rod channel, just leaving a thin 3-5mm thick sliver of wood covering the truss rod channel at the back of the neck (which takes most of the strength out of it). This is something companies like Fender do all day long with their "skunk stripe", and I don't believe there are major issues with warpage as a result.
2) Again, totally agree that using aliphatic resin/PVA/Titebond/"wood glue" which is water based, on a multiple laminate neck is introducing lots of moisture back into your carefully acclimatised/dried timber. So its always worth remembering that there IS an alternative adhesive you can use which isn't water based. Polyurethane. I use this on pretty much all my joints in all my builds, and have found it to be superior to PVA types (for many reasons). I only save the PVA for longer open times. You do have to be organised to use it (especially on a laminated neck) because the open time is only about 10 minutes. But once it's together it's not coming apart again, and you're not introducing extra moisture into the timber (as it's "solvent based").
3) I have found that "seam sprout" is not just an issue of different expansion and contraction rates acting on different timbers, giving a "step" between different timbers. It can also be down to the adhesive layer shrinking far less than the surrounding laminations, so it's actually the glue line you can feel, not just the step between the timbers.
I'm not trying to teach anyone to "suck eggs", I'm just throwing in some observations, if it helps anyone.
Brilliant vid Chris (as ever)!
The type of headstock can be a factor in how the neck is constructed. Fender-style headstocks are more easily (econmically) constructed from a single piece of lumber. An angled headstock from a single piece of lumber will require a scarf joint which has its own issues. Or a much thicker (read expensive) piece of lumber if made from a single piece. A laminated blank made from 3+ pieces of 1/4 sawn lumber MAY be less costly than a single piece of similar sized lumber. Someone fact check me on the above and feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
I am not a fan of Fender style headstocks. All my headstocks are angled: scarf joint or laminate. Too much waste you make an angled headstock from a 3x3 piece of maple.
Cheers Chris, keep the good content coming.
Which do you think is better?
Laminated neck
OR
scarf joint headstock
What are the criteria?
@@HighlineGuitars I do "Gibson" style necks (not "flat" Fender ones, I think you do that). In order to avoid a HUGE chuck of wood for the neck and headstock, I laminate with thinner pieces containing the headstock. I could switch it around and use a scarf joint instead with one piece for the neck.
So I was just curious in my conditions, would you think a laminated neck with headstock attached or a one piece neck with a scarf joint headstock.
Or just always use a huge chunk of wood so I can get neck and headstock without laminating or scarf joint.
@@oakhurstaxe6392 I do both angled and flat headstocks. For years I used a scarf joint for my angled headstocks, but these days I use a thick enough blank to get out of the hassle of making the scarf. I don't think it matters for what you want to do. Either way will work equally well. Of course, it all depends on how well the work is done.
@@HighlineGuitars Cool, thanks for the info on how you handle that. I always like to hear how others do things, and I think your work is pretty top notch.
Question from a guy who hasn’t yet built his first guitar, , , , does all I’ve just listened to apply to fretboards? - Adding a fretboard to a neck, is after all a lamination, or is it ? - Do different rules apply? Or am I just over thinking it? . . . .
Yes, I recommend inspecting your fingerboard for cupping, twisting etc. It will exert some force on the neck once it is laminated on. Using a stable fingerboard helps keep the neck integral. Frets can also exert some force on the neck - if the slots are narrow and the fret tangs are pushing outward as a result, there can be back-bow, usually easy to correct with the truss rod, but best avoided by cutting the slots just so.
What Jason said.
Thank you both🎸👍
I was half expecting this to be one of those class action lawsuit commercials.
Call Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe to see if you have a case.
I also don’t like having to buy more than one board to make a neck
😂😂😂😂😂😂
+1 on you gluing comments. As thin as possible. Brushed on like you said, or even better rolled on. Glue does not stick to itself very well, you can take a blob of dried glue and pull it apart with your fingers. The ideal bond is when there's just enough glue to form a lignin that holds the wood fibers of the two boards together, like the rest of the wood itself. I've seen many of the "glue-slathering videos" you describe, and the only thing they accomplish is that the thing holding the two boards together is glue sticking to itself, which has very little shear strength.
A proven funiture makers technique for stock preparation before lamination is to plane a very slight hollow in one of the two boards, which close up under clamping. It is rare that two flat surfaces are so flat that they do not have a tiny gap somewhere that no amount of clamping force can get rid of.
Every time I see one of those globbed on glue jobs I think, every bit of glue that is running out of the side is the same amount that is in your truss rod channel.
A quick question/though; do you think it could be that it is getting closer that you would do a neck from some composite or fully from carbon fibre rather than use any wood? Or is it still a tabu among players and luthiers? And are there materials that are easy enough to work on?
I would love to make full carbon fiber necks. However, the tooling and materials are too expensive.
Composites is what I do for a living. Curious if you decided to make a composite neck ( not difficult or costly at all) would you still do a wood fretboard or would that be composite also?
@@LenLochmiller I didn’t know. I have never made a neck or a fretboard out of carbon fiber. I think it would be cool, but it’s not on my to do list.
Very interesting. You know, it's strange, when I was younger and I was playing and teching/repairing my own gear in the late 80s/90/2k, it was considered more correct to have a 1 piece quarter sawn neck. All my expensive guitars had them and were marketed as being at an advantage for being one piece. The excepted wisdom was that yes, straight quarter sawn was less susceptible to warping and twisting. Now, set the time machine to 2017 and beyond, after a life of family and all that other rubbish that gets in the way of playing, and suddenly, all these top end instruments have multi-laminate necks. I was perplexed. I mean, it doesn't take a lot of thought to understand that mirroring the laminates will counter any potential twists, etc, but I just assumed it was a money making thing - use off cuts of easier to source wood in thinner strips and use that to make necks. Just market them in a way to get people believing they are now the "better" neck technology. After all, all these players fell for the whole tone wood rubbish, so why not? I guess ultimately, it doesn't really matter as long as it's done right with good quality materials, go for what you think looks/feels good.
One of my prefered guitar is a SG (a 2002 MIK Epiphone one). The neck is one piece, albeit the head is scarf-jointed. This neck allow some deflection, and i can do some chord bend/vibrato by torquing it with my hand, and i'm not particulary strong. To me it's a feature, not a defect. A super stiff digging bar style neck is a "dead" neck.
The wood seems to be some sort of mahogany, and flat sawn to my understanding as i can see (very faintly) the growth ring feathering down the length of the neck. After 20 years of regular use the neck show no sign of deformation whatsoever.
You need to speak with Ken Parker , Parker Guitars 🎸. He makes I think probably the Best neck there is or at least in the top 2or 3 . I’m pretty sure his neck are laminate. He is a Great Master Luthier .
Let's hope this doesn't turn into the next "tone wood" debate, LOL.
The building construction/materials have requirements/code laws etc… that have absolutely nothing to do with guitar necks…. pssst… guitar necks just aren’t that important, true story!
If you’re gluing a fingerboard on a neck, by definition you’re are most certainly laminating a guitar neck.
How do you decide what orientation and dimension CFRP to “laminate” into your guitar necks to stabilize the anisotropic properties of your guitar necks?
It’s a materials engineering rabbit hole isn’t it?
And like most rabbit holes, it's a titanic waste of time.
Well @@HighlineGuitars only if you're worried about maybe close enough.
Dang man, you went from guitar neck tolerance to people dying in a flying Volkswagen 😳😂
A laminated neck will be as strong as a solid piece of wood. Modern wood glue is stronger than the wood. Your valid point is wood movement and how you can feel the seam due to environment change.
Still has to be done right to be stronger.
@@HighlineGuitars Alot of what you are saying is basic wood working. I build furniture for a hobby, so what I hear is just normal practices. Guess that is why I just assume you laminate it well. Joint the wood, good flat surfaces and such. ANd if you want stability yes quarter sawn is best. Wood movement is more even.
1st rule in building guitars/necks.... throw out the rule book.
The second rule in building guitars/necks... when they fail, you've got a nice chunk of firewood.
Who’s to say what’s right or wrong? If it works for you then do it your own way.
In Ancient times Artisan's who worked with Wood understood so much more .. without computers lol Viking ships were made & regularly repaired /maintained by natural resins & wood filler / wedges So that the Ship was considered to be a living thing .. In Tudor Times & long b4 The practice of growing Trees & trimming them to shape was common .. Westminster Cathedral etc .. Sadly the Mary Rose was a very stupid Design lol as were many of the Ships of the Spanish Armada .. or perhaps we would all be speaking more spanish .. // Anyway as much as I love the idea I am 67 & have increasingly pains in my hands .. so aside from doing a bit of basic T.L.C . to a Guitar & some Fretwork etc that is all I can manage .. My Quandary is at what point do I give up on a much loved but no longer reliable instrument ( damaged by a poor wannabe Luthier practicing on my guitar ) .. in other words .. when do I ( as with computers etc ) just give up & buy a new & playable instrument ?? ... at this time the best use I could make of my old acoustic is to have it measured for a replacement ?? .. or just use it for slide & open Tunings etc .. ??? .. I have spent years buying cheap guitars & cheaper tools & learning on the job that I am not a natural craftsman lol .. But I do not regret the deeper understanding I have gained from trying ..I did have some small success .. But if you were ( which I know you are not anymore ) in the business of repair .. perhaps you could make a short Film called " When to Give up on a Guitar " lol cheers ..
I have been making guitars for a long time now. I have made about 200 necks over the years. I would say about 95% of them are lam. necks. I have work on a lot of guitars with one piece necks. I over the year have found it interesting that a lot of one piece neck have a lot of problems in twisting and bowing. Yes, they were 1/4 saw necks. So a one piece is not foolproof. I have and have sold guitars that are now almost 20 years old that I have made with lam necks with no issues.
I agree that when a neck is glues up, it should rest for some time before using or cutting.
But you know, as well as I do, not all wood is created equal. You can use the same wood from the same slab of wood and have a lot of thing change in the making of a neck or even guitar body. Wood is wood, and no one can say this or that is correct or not. I have had some high end 1/4 saw wood go bad in the making of necks. I have used woods that are air dried, kelm dried and so on. Out of all the necks I have made, I had 2 that went bad on me before I put them on a guitar. I did everything to what you call right way of doing things. But yet they went bad, Why? Because it's wood. We take a chance every time we glue up or carve some wood. It's part of making things out of wood. I bet if people were honest, even Cab makers have experienced cab doors warping on them, no mater how they fallowed to "rules".
I understand your concerns in this. But I think you're making people worry too much.
It's like when I first got started in making guitars. There were a lot of YT videos out there that had me so afraid of turning a truss rod in fear of messing up one. WOW! Yes, they all sounded like they were the experts in everything to know about truss rods. To this day, I have never broken a truss rod or stripped one out. And that is at least 1000 or more truss rod adjustments over the years.
Here is my take on all this. You have found what works best for you. I, too, do what works best for me. If anyone is wanting to make guitars from scratch, it is going to be a lot of trial on error before they find what works best for them.
Making guitars should be fun to do and not be worrying about so many things. I wish I could see videos on the good things of guitar making and not so many videos that seem to be against guitar making. I see videos of people who are against the hobby builder. Why is that?
Even after all the years I have been making guitars (now retired) I have never put people down from wanting to build a guitar from parts or from scratch. Heck, when I first started, I didn't even own or know how to user a router.
My first neck I made was made by hand, with lots of sand paper and chisels. It is still on a cig gar box guitar I made. That was over 20 year ago. I even put in a homemade truss rod. Oh, it was made from oak. LOL! And it, too, was a lam neck.
Well, again, do what works best for you and buy the things you like, and I'll do the same. It's all good!
Anecdotes are fun, but useless.
There's no right answer. It's case by case, choice by choice. Kinda like whether or not you're damaging the spirit and resonance of the wood by using power tools to remove the majority of the waste material... Good videos! 👍
re torrified wood: it is great but far too often the wood is torrified in too high temperature resulting to brittle and weak wood. A lot of researc has been made on this topic by top class Finnish guitar makers such as Juha Lottonen.
You make a claim near the end of the video that many of the single piece necks you build perform better than multi laminate necks. What, in this example, defines better? How are you measuring "better" objectively?
I use a precision straightedge and my sense of touch.
just throw some epoxy on 😂
I think using epoxy would eliminate most of these problems.
If it were impregnated into carbon fiber material, yes, it would. However as an adhesive intended to laminate pieces of wood, not it would not. Epoxy can't stop the expansion and contraction of wood due to changes in humidity.
Lol so to avoid seam sprout arising from climate abuse, you'll tolerate the risk of the same climate abuse delaminating the fretboard as the neck twists and warps?
We're talking only about subjective building preferences. The laminated neck prevented the warping and twisting as one piece might have expanded or contracted.
Its almost pointless with a good roasted maple neck blank, (emphasis on good) but sure improves the torsional strength of mahogany as well as its shear strength.
Honestly when I can cut pieces for 2 5 piece necks in 90 minutes with just a bandsaw and planer, I'm not losing too much time over doing it. Carbon rods certainly substitute their tensional and shear strength, but I'm surprised how expensive the rods are: best deal I've seen from a US dealer has been $15/rod. I can get the roasted birdseye maple neck blank for $15 CDN... I'm putting carbon rods in two basses in order to get away with thinner neck profiles. One is a Rickenbacker clone where I'm trying to cure its classic defect of the 4001 neck not being stable and the 4004 being too fat to play. The walnut and maple lamination is traditional. Same thing applies to the 2nd bass, based on a Thunderbird design. My Gibson thunderbird has an amazing neck but it does need some regular truss rod adjustments I can avoid.
So, if cost is a factor, wood being wood being wood, laminate is equal to one piece for wood cost. If time is a factor, one piece wins. If appearance is a factor, laminate often wins. If stability is the main factor, I agree that carbon rods and laminate necks are basically equal, and both better than a one piece, mainly because of all the things you may be doing to mitigate against any invisible defects in the wood blank.
You know, when You will make a guitar for usd2.000,- and use one piece neck, You can be sure with a problem.....if You take a long time guarantee. Our real experience with necks made from one piece. We can see expensive older Fenders, etc. with bad necks too.
Flat sawn quarter sawn. Unless it's Birdseye maple. Don't agree with maple. Made 2 flatsawn maple necks with no problems. Mahogay ya quarter. Roasted maple. R s may be better.
Somebody is, eventually, going to tool up and start mass producing, carbon fiber (or some such) necks, light, stable, strong ... leave the ebony alone
Carbon fibre necks arn’t that good actually. Better stick to normal wood with richlite as a ebony replacement.
Aristides Guitars have carbon fibre epoxy necks filled with arium as the core. I haven't heard anything negative about those so far. Never seen or played one myself. They are relatively close though. I might give them a visit in the winter.
There are a few who have, but they haven't caught on.
Modulus were making CF replacement necks in the early 90s
One piece necks look eleventy billions times better than contrasting wood laminated necks.
not really
Point of grammar: "Was your laminated guitar neck made incorrectly". You need an adverb at the end there mate.
"You an adverb..."?
He an adverb!
I'm not an adverb.
@Nick Ha! I absolutely did. Typos aren't poor grammar, however I should pay more attention before clicking post.