As a hobbyist builder I like using brass inserts as I do take the neck on and off frequently during a build as Chris mentioned. There's something about knowing the integrity of the threads will be consistent forever versus degrading each time the neck is removed. This is also beneficial if the truss rod is adjusted at the heel as many of my builds are. Other than that, I agree, there's no tonal or functional benefit. I'm sure this is mentioned somewhere, but it's helpful to generate threads using the appropriate tap to ensure the insert goes in without tear-out.
One of THE worst things is when you've removed the neck on something cheap and upon reinstallation the low quality screws snaps off. Been there and done that.
The youtuber WoodcraftBySuman did some tests with threaded inserts. I was surprised to see, the superiority of wood threads compared to metal threaded inserts. check out his video with title "this is the problem with threaded inserts".
I agree. At most, screw inserts are a nice touch for a high end guitar. To me, getting those steel plates off and using ferrules is far more beneficial. Better look and easier to make a nice comfortable heel shape.
Thank you sir! I took up guitar building/repair etc... about 3 years ago as my retirement hobby and came full circle like you with neck joining...neck screws work just fine if you need to be economical. I just finished my 75th guitar and I am, like you, starting to go the set-neck route. I never commented on a video before but have been watching for years...keep up the great videos my friend.
You hit the nail square on the head... For a fastener that may never come off in the life of a guitar (the neck), it's not worth the hassle. However, I always use them where pickups are installed and pick guards (electronic covers) are attached.
I've fitted threaded inserts on my guitars, and can hear a definite improvement in tone compared to wood screws (because of the tighter joint, not the different screws). Also, as someone who bends his neck for vibrato, machine screws are far less likely to come loose than wood screws; something that happened once during a gig many years ago, throwing my guitar way out of tune. Installing inserts is very easy for anyone with an ounce of common sense and a little DIY aptitude. I recommend them.
Hi Chris. I think you explained this with great clarity. I would add two things. First, there is an argument that threaded inserts are actually LESS stable than screws because they take up more space in the neck, reducing its integrity. Second, I believe your argument only applies to solid body guitars. I build exclusively acoustics and here threaded inserts are useful if you don't want to go down the dovetail route. You can refine the neck angle repeatedly both during the build (important if you are a beginner) and, more importantly, when the time comes (as it inevitably will on an acoustic that is built appropriately lightly) for a neck reset, the job is highly simplified for you or the next repair person down the road. Having said all that, there is a well known Italian acoustic maker (admittedly fairly low end) that uses woodscrews, and lutes are traitionally made with a big NAIL reinforcing the neck/body joint! Finally, a very high end resonator guitar maker uses machine screws and inserts to fit the cover plate! It's a great idea given the dimensions involved, but how often does a coverplate come off? Probably only if you have trouble with the spider or the cone, in which case you are likely to have other things on your mind than the odd stripped tiny screw hole!
I started down that road, thinking there would be some magical tone advantage......my guitar tech quickly put the breaks on it. He's also a custom guitar builder and his thoughts are very much in line with yours. Great video/information. Thank you.
I agree with your views, but I actually had a case where using machine screws and inserts made sense. For awhile I had to travel frequently and I wanted to bring a guitar along. After awhile I settled on modifying a Peavey T60 that I got from a pawn shop for a good price, and modified the neck with machine screw inserts. I could then fit the guitar into my checked suitcase without worrying about whether or not I would have room for it as a carry-on. When I got to my destination, it took about 10 minutes to put the neck back on, put on strings (using Sperzel locking tuners) and tune up. This was a low-cost way to have a good, sturdy, reliable travel guitar.
Hi Chris, I will send you a couple of our Nectite Inserts and screws. They are made of steel with hex drive, and come with a tool to insert them easily into the wood. I wonder if that would change your mind, at least a bit :-) We sold thousands of these kits, with no complaints so far! All the best and thanks for the great videos!
if you want to make the heel into a nice shape i think that if you properly install the inserts then you can get away with one insert and 2 supporting screws...since the brunt of the strain is taken up by the screws or inserts closest to the outside edge of the pocket.. and the side to side movement of the neck is supported by the pocket sides themselves
I don’t think it’s a matter of better tone, perceived value or customer demand (or lack of demand). I think it’s a matter of offering a better constructed guitar. The correct SS or hardened steel (brass is to soft) insert with correct threads (NOT self forming/cutting) that are tapped prior to threading the insert in are key to having the best connection. This type of fastener is superior to wood screws hands down. IMHO building the best constructed guitars with the best construction methods, whether anyone else appreciates it or not, is why I use proper inserts and machine screws.
@@riokinsey2134 The automotive ones with red thread locker on them work well. I use 8-32 inside threads. The key is to 1) Thread tap the hole in the neck to the threads on the outside of the insert. 2) Clean the thread locker off with a wire brush, then clean them spotless with break cleaner, mineral spirits or lacquer thinner. 3) I like to use a slow cure epoxy (Fasco 101 Epoxy Glue, best stuff ever) in the hole, thread in the insert, clean off any excess and leave it be for 24 hours. The other key is to only use hand tools to put the neck on. A power tool is not your friend in this application.
It's not what you do, it's how you do it. Many companies, Fender included, do a poor job of heel/ pocket fitment and depth. If well executed it is fine, but so often you need to shim etc. I used to work for a manufacturer who put little threaded metal blocks in the neck under the fretboard. The necks were literally bolted on. It was all cnc routed so all fitted together perfectly. Also, removable necks are great in manufacturing because it simplifies the finishing process as well.
I use t-nuts that get installed in between the neck and the fretboard. Buyers may not care, but from a QC point of view, it's 2 extra minutes on the CNC, pennies for the nuts and a cast iron guarantee that the neck will be firmly fixed to the body. Do players care that you're using threaded inserts? maybe not. Do they care if their guitar shows up and the neck has some wiggle?
@@johnnyforeignerguitars More than anything, your approach shows the benefit of CNC. What would take an hour or two the old school way, only takes minutes or seconds with CNC.
@@HighlineGuitars I mean, obviously you sacrifice TOAN when you use a CNC and I can't really call myself a real luthier since I don't only use hand tools that I forged myself, but I'm okay with that :)
I put some hardwood plugs to the soft wood and the use screw. I do the same for tuners if mahogany neck. Fast, but won't get screwed so easy. In my own guitar, I made hardwood plugs for the bridge too, because of the softwood top on the maple body and made the studs go through body
I have owned several bolt-ons over the years and never removed a neck until I started doing my first build. Building them now, yeah theres been a few guitars that needed to have the neck on and off a few times as I tweak things for final assembly. I just use high quality #10 x 1.5 stainless wood screws ( Robertson of course like any good Canadian) and countersink washers.
On the , at nauseum, SUSTAIN front years ago ran an actual lab experiment using my 20 guitar collection and the winner was my 1970s Hagstrom Swede ( bolt on) held note for 28 seconds. Why you need that if average song is 3.5 minutes?
As a carpenter who recently started building guitars I totally relate to this, we always take extra steps hoping the consumer will appreciate it but usually they don't even care
I have two basses with threaded inserts in the necks. One of them I played for quite a while before I had the inserts installed for me, and in comparing the two I was able to recognise a definite improvement in the tone of the bass. The note seemed to be much more solid after I plucked the string, there was much more body to it, and sustain certainly seemed to be much better. I would personally swear by threaded inserts on any newly built guitar, and I'm actually just about to install them in a bass I'm putting together just now.
I used machine screw inserts on my first build. I later changed it to wood screws when I replaced the neck. All the rest of my builds (I stopped counting around 70) use wood screws. Measured on the needs vs nice vs bling scale, machine screw inserts are just bling, unless you're really sloppy with a Phillips head. I prefer bolt-on necks to set necks for the adjustability and ease of repair and replacement and will commonly convert set neck kit builds to bolt-on necks.
Makes perfect sense. Related: why have a heel on a neck? I understand it would have an advantage on a bolt-on neck, more stability. But on a set neck, would it not possibly have an advantage to not have a heel so there be more options for a smoother transition into the body including comfort cuts?. What is your opinion?
With a set neck, you still need sufficient area for the glue to form a good bond between the neck and the body. That's what the heel is for. You could minimize the heel, but that could lead to a weak joint.
I'll simplify this video - Threaded inserts are a pain in the ass to install and they offer very little benefit. I started using them after watching Chris install them. It's the one thing I hated doing when building and I screwed a few necks by buggering up the holes for the inserts. I stopped using them after about 10 guitars because my actual Strats and Teles play great and I have no issues with taking the necks off and on those so if it worked for Leo it'll work for me. I love that Chris tries stuff and then posts videos when he changes techniques - it's why his videos are so great and why I use them as a reference for my building.
really should be looked at on jazzmaster/jaguars/offsets more, since the shimming process necessitated by that infernal vibrato unit require multiple neck removals
I would say it depends on the wood, harder types do with the screws just fine, where as softer ones may require threads. Say if you go with maple, as most bolt on's are - screws are fine, but if you want mahogany neck, threaded option seems like a better one. Curious what are your thoughts on this.
The use of threaded inserts still means you're cutting threads into wood. The difference is that you're cutting the threads with an insert rather than the screw itself. While the screw won't easily strip the threads of the insert, over torquing the screw can cause the insert to stip the threads it cut into the wood. I would never make a bolt-in Mahogany neck.
@@HighlineGuitars Thanks for responding! You think that mahogany is worthless as a neck? I'm putting together a les paul with bolt on for myself, thinking of using mahogany. That said, as i'm not bound to using fender's 4 screws on the bottom method or their dimensions, considering other options, still thinking how to do it right.
@@HighlineGuitars "I would never make a bolt-on mahogany neck", i took it as mahogany necks are no go, or were you talking about yourself specifically?
Chris, one last question. When you used wood inserts and bolts what diameter and length bolt did you use.? Especially when you were putting inserts in a neck that had already used a wood screw? Thanks, again.
I typically used 10-24 inserts. The length depends on the design of the guitar and how thick the body wood under the neck combined with the neck heel's thickness. Usually 1-1/2."
I am very interested in this topic. I have purchased threaded inserts but hadn't made up my mind whether to use them or not. And if I use them to bolt on the neck whether I need to put two inserts in each hole, because they are so short, in order to get a tight grip. Thanks for doing this video
That's easy in my book, if it ain't broke dont worry about it. Think of your inserts as a "backup plan" should an issue arise. You already have the parts. I've personally owned over a dozen guitars with floyd rose tremelo systems. When you "dive bomb" your taking nearly all the pressure off the bolts then re applying that pressure as the guitar returns to pitch. Check the screws when you change your strings. You may find them a tad loose for various reasons, but if you aggressively whammy and dive bomb and you find your screws loose, maybe consider installing them. Or having them installed. Maybe you have a guitar that you need to remove the neck in order to adjust the truss rod. And you live in a state where there are severe temperature and humidity changes. And you like your action super low and everytime there's a slight change in humidity your guitar frets out and buzzes. And its probably got a thin neck too. Well now you're probably going to NEED those inserts eventually. Maybe you are concerned about the damage caused by the stripping of the threads when and if this happens. Relax.. you would most likely know these troubles are headed this way. You are obviously the most detail oriented person alive lol I never had these or feel I needed these. Show me SONGS where you need the loads of sustain your after anyways. "Oy, get my paul. This strat'll never sustain enough to get me through this number" hysterical...
I have to back the screws out of my neck every time I need to make a truss rod adjustment, and it's a trial and error process so sometimes I have to do it multiple times before I get it right under string tension. Threaded inserts on those vintage fenders is a nice thing to have.
The only real reason to use threaded inserts on a guitar, in my opinion, is if the neck needs to come off frequently - either due to a vintage heel-adjusted truss rod (not the modern thumbscrew ones), or if it's meant to be a "backpack" option where you can take the neck off to fit it in a small backpack (which some guitarists do to expedite getting it in an overhead bin on an airplane). That's where value would be added - threaded inserts last longer under frequent removal and adjustment, so the guitar would last a lot longer in that capacity.
I build cigar box guitars and recently did a screwed on neck to facilitate taking off the neck to make it easier to pack the guitar in luggage for traveling ... works great, but after removing and replacing the neck a number of times I thought, hmmm, those threads in the neck are going to be getting weaker the more I do this... so, the next travel cbg I build will have threaded inserts...
Hi. Thanks for the video.... I don't know much about building guitars, but I do know a bit about fasteners. I used to wonder why more bolt ons didn't have threaded inserts... Then I thought how many times are you gonna take the neck on and off of a guitar? What screw size do you use? A #10?. A #8? I use or spec out threaded inserts on projects that are portable or taken apart regularly. Even then, I prefer riv-nuts if possible, which really wouldn't work too well for guitar necks. Also. continued vibration or movement can make screws in inserts come loose over time. Especially with 10-24 and 1/4-20 machine screws. You could use lock-tite but I think that would defeat the purpose and run the risk of popping out the insert when loosening the screw I dunno. If you just HAVE to repeatedly take the neck on and off a guitar for some reason, why use screws at all? Rare earth magnets!
Rare Earth magnets (neodymium) probably wouldn't be strong enough. Also, they would mess with the magnetic field of the pickups. In the past, I used #10 and #8. Both work well and I have no preference.
I would like to ask one thing that I have been wondering for a long time. Over the past hundreds of years people have been growing taller, bigger, and sizes - for clothing as well as shoe sizes - followed the trend. The average height of a male in medieval times was 170 cm (today is 177 cm in the US). I see nowadays more and more people struggling with getting a clean sound because of the neck width of guitars. Even in classical guitars, with a nut width of 54 mm, are strings placed so close to each other that today's male fingers have often problems with pressing one string and not dampening the adyacent. My question is if you are getting more and more requests for wider necks or if people either do not notice or decide to limit themselves to the chords they can play. I am surprised that this ergonomy issue is not discussed more often.
It's a wood screw. Most wood screws have a short unthreaded section right after the head. These are custom made to be full threaded. I don't use them anymore as I prefer the traditional wood screw. I'll be using ferrules instead of a plate.
Thread inserts have there place in there use and application. But I do agree with your other statement on tonality. Thread there is not that much more time that you claim, you have to drill a pilot hole for a standard wood screw so I dont understand the complaint???? the only thing is your having to do two time the fastener insert. Also inserts are for the application of machine threads so if you wanted a flat head hex head screw by design you will have to tap or use an insert. But if you are just using a chrome oval head wood screw then you are correct but that is a designer or cost issue. The extra hour or two sounds extreme and as a gimmick they are not but I understand what your driving at. Good conversation overall!
Thanks for the realistic summary. I kinda fooled myself into using threaded inserts as the "better" solution, but as you said, i just built my first bass for myself and just like the look of the inserts and the counterpieces, since it looks more "boutique" . I'll probably never remove the neck again as soon as the build is done though
I recently had success on a personal parts guitar using 18-8 stainless steel "knife thread" 10-24 tapping inserts (95807A200) from McMaster-Carr. These are 1/2 long and require a wide hole so I was nervous and experimented in a separate block of hardwood with the pilot hole size so that I wouldn't crack the maple neck by trying to install them in a pilot hole that was too small. The width of the insert pilot holes also requires the removal of wood very close to the edge of the neck, so it feels a bit risky with this large size of an insert. Chris is right -- the pilot holes need to be dead-on perfect. One of my insert placements was not perfect and I had to then widen the corresponding bolt hole in the body to compensate for the mistake. The widened hole is invisible because it's under a neck plate, but I know it is there. I'm writing this comment so that you go in knowing how precise and careful you need to be if you attempt this. Also, in addition to the inserts themselves, you will want to buy a $10 installation bit which will keep the insert aligned with the pilot hole as you install it. I hand-turned my inserts into the pilot holes with the installation bit in the chuck of a drill press to make sure that it went in straight. Good luck!
I like threaded inserts because.. I CRAVE THE STRENGTH AND CERTAINTY OF STEEL on a more serious note, I'm in the minority who actually takes on and off the neck quite a bit (as others have pointed out, it's great for traveling, and using a less targetable by thieves bagagge is a nice addition) and especially on my fretless bass with added piezo it _does_ improve the timbre
I share the same experiences as you Chris on the topic of wood screws vs threaded inserts with machine screws. I've built several with both. It's true 90%+ of guitar players don't care about threaded inserts, or don't even know what they are, or as you've mentioned just never remove the neck from their guitar. My go to method now is simply a la fender, which also allows me to use custom engraved neck plates as a nice touch. Once I drill my pilots in the neck and thread the holes, I'll then remove the screw and wick the neck holes/threads with thin CA glue to uphold the integrity....but hey, no one even knows that or would even care lol
Most people won't touch the neck unless it needs a shim. OR if they have a vintage style neck with the truss rod adjustment at the heel and have to remove the neck to do so.
Great video! How would you go about drilling the holes for an angled bottom neck pocket? I'm trying to create my own design, using a flat heel/tenon and an angled bottom pocket and I'm not sure how to go about doing it as I can't just drill perpendicular holes in this case. Your input would be much appreciated!
For me, the one place threaded inserts are really helpful is on bolt neck guitars with heel adjust truss rod, like 90% of fender custom shop guitars, or the fender vintage reissues, like the AVRIs or the American Originals. If you live in a changeable climate and have to adjust the truss rod seasonally, and have one of these kind of necks, I’d say it was worth it
It looks like Chris is using brass inserts and not steel. I ordered steel for my neck. Matt of Texas Toast Guitars uses steel inserts. It'll be interesting to see what Chris has experienced. Brass seem easiest to get unless I just haven't found a decent supplier. Thanks Chris.
3 scenarios for inserts: I shipped guitar to Brazil so reduced cost & if you have Fender neck w body side adjustment or if you travel and want to put guitar in suitcase ( see Erlewine story about Bill Kirchen).Otherwise I agree w video, having used on half dozen guitars. But I feel stainless steel bolts w steel inserts (a la Texas Toast) do feel,in my frenzied mind, tighter. Again, agree most people could care less, 😄
J Kelly I'm interested in your experience. My fear is the wood insert is too short for a solid grip. The insert needs to be longer or 2 used one at the top of the hole and the other deep down near the end of the bolt to get a solid unmovable neck. What is your experience? Thanks.
I'll chime in here. Don't try stacking inserts. It's totally unnecessary. Also, if the threads don't match up between the two stacked inserts, you'll have problems.
Setting in the neck is what I prefer to solve the problem with bolt-ons. Unless the the screws are straight, the heel is absolutely flat and the pocket done correctly you end up with necks that are as unstable as a board balanced on a rolling pin.
Thank your for this video. I was wondering about the pluses and minuses of threaded inserts. During the pandemic I assembled several Tele and Strat style partscaster guitars, some with 24.75 scale lengths, rosewood, maple, ebony fretboards, and various neck shapes, and all sorts of pick-ups and found that every once in a while switching out the neck improves the instrument for the sound and playability I was going for. For guitars I use for more bending strings, I prefer thinner nut width and guitars for playing more complex jazzy chords, slightly wider nut widths work better..., In other words, keeping neck installing simple and consistent allows for much easier mixing and matching to find the best neck to body combination --and wood screws seem to be more forgiving. (Since the neck pocket for the tele and strat are not the same I don't mix tele necks with strat bodies though...)
I used threaded inserts on a 5-string bass because I used a piece of old growth Douglas fir for the neck and I was concerned about stripping the soft wood. I later made several guitars using the same wood for the neck and wood screws without any issues whatsoever. I’m inclined to agree that it was a lot of extra work without any clear benefit.
threaded insert is time-consuming and hence costly... as an engineer and player i always liked bolt-on necks... it's simple, durable, and easily adjustable as regards to changing for a suitable the neck angle
i always thoght the poin of those are that you can apply a much higher clamping force btwn the two parts... maybe double or more. of course with using high quality inserts, not furniture style, and high tension metric screws. hardness 8 or 10.
@@HighlineGuitars i believe what you are saying but i am an engineer and if this is true then the whole tonewood craze is a myth too. Like lot of people are saying... I won't take sides on that because I am left-handed and we have very little chance to try out different guitars and compare them. but if tonewood exists and there is a big resonance to them then the clamping force indeed matter. we were learning about this on a different scale of course in architecture these are called engineered wood structures and a lot of similar joints are in place. those can be designed for stresses, torques etc as per design metods. looking forward to watching your video about the actual install
@@kbuss10 Architecture is one thing, guitars are another. Apples to oranges. I am not aware of any scientific study that proves increasing clamping force improves resoance in an electric guitar. Millions of bolt-in necks have been made without threaded inserts for over 8 decades and they have been used to record more great songs than I could ever count.
You all should watch the latest clip from Dylan Talks Tone. He does a reaction video to a fellows video on tone wood or the lack thereof, it's awesome. As usual you brought us food for thought Chris.
I use threaded inserts because I do end up taking the neck on and off multiple times as I build. It's just a hobby for me. It also makes me feel better ;) How much better mechanically that is (sure, no tone difference, and a mechanical overkill) and the ability to take necks off, make changes, swap them etc. with no worry. I'm sure that if you *really* wanted to use those you could streamline your process with a couple of jigs/templates, I mean it's drilling four holes and then threading in that insert. You're still drilling 4 holes for wood screws. The cost of the inserts and the machine screws is nothing. But if your customers don't care, and it saves you even a tiny bit of time, then it's definitely the right thing for you. Some people might even prefer the more "traditional" methods...
Great point about most folks not removing the neck to begin with. Question: Would you still use the approach of using wood screws over inserts if making a neck out of a non-wood material such as epoxy or graphite? My understanding with the wood screws is that because the material doesn't give in the same way wood does it seems like a narrow use case where the inserts makes more sense to keep everything together, but this could just be tone-lore.
I’m a hobby builder and I’ve always been surprised that $4000 guitars are assembled using wood screws. In fact I’ve often been surprised that Strat tremolo springs are also affixed using wood screws, in spite of the fact that they are loaded in tension. I use inserts even on my factory guitars. I’m working on a bolt on neck built from carbon fiber as I think it may be a superior material for that purpose. I forgot to mention that the correct way to use inserts on a neck would be to install them from the top prior to gluing on the fret board.
Nice explanation Chris. I’ve been exchanging necks for years. All I do is every once in a while add a dab of carpenter’s glue to each neck hole (and maybe body hole) get a new set of appropriate stainless oval head screws and go back to playing. I really liked that you mentioned it’s the ‘whole’ sum of the guitar’s parts that characterize it’s ‘soul’ - so to speak…wood, hardware and I believe, even the shape of the body. I enjoy listening to your journey and your love of teaching.
I like the inserts simple because I think they're cool. That being said, In a modern construction neck with the trussrod accessible without needing to take the neck off, the benefits are much less, because how often is someone realistically going to be taking the neck off of that kind of guitar? The end user would take a neck off for two main reasons: 1.) To adjust the truss rod if it's located in the heel, or 2.) shim the neck. Only one of those two is going to be repeated multiple times throughout the guitar's life. The ironic part is that truss rod adjustments in the heel are a very inconvenient "vintage" spec, and if someone is that far into the vintage "mojo" where they willingly choose something as inconvenient as that, there is no way they'll settle for "modern" threaded inserts.
Threaded inserts are in my opinion a negative as a builder/repair minded person. The reason these inserts exist is primarily for softer woods where a smaller wood screw wood be prone to pulling the threads. They also allow people to over tighten the screws pulling the washers or ferrules into the body. Another issue is wood screws if done properly should lightly thread thru the body, not enough to cause threads but should be tight enough that you can’t pull them out by hand before engaging the neck. This greatly helps in securing the neck in the pocket from rotating. Machine screws having tighter finer threads don’t bite into the holes in the body and are much more prone to being sloppy. Inserts are for soft wood and particle board not maple and mahogany
Once again, changing your opinion based on evidence. I like your style. That said… I do like that premium look and given I am only building for myself or fiends, I will likely do one more bolt on and will prob use threaded inserts. It does look premium and I have no time constraints. 👍🏻
Right on about the install on those bushings (must be perfectly straight) and very time consuming. I have a repair shop and use them for a rescue method on stripped bolt holes.
I understand your issues with inserts but from your experience do they offer a good fit without movement for the neck attachment? I would think the insert would need to be longer to create a good fit that wouldn't move. I want to only own 1 or 2 partscasters but build out 4 or 5 pickguards and pop them in and out as desired. I assumed that would quickly cause the pickguard holes to lose grip so I thought wood inserts would be the right answer for this application. Then I thought maybe they would be a good solution for attaching my hardtail bridge and neck. So other than time what is your experience with wood inserts? Thanks for the video.
You raise a good point. If they are a big improvement, why aren't they being used on bridges, pickguards, strap buttons....? It's all about cost. Plus pretty much anyone can fix a wood hole that is stripped with some simple tools. Fixing brass or steel inserts is more complicated.
It's about 2 years late but I'll pile onto the not-worth-using inserts side of this anyway with a practical rhetorical question and answer--Q: If in the event you strip out screw holes in a neck heel from using wood screws like Fender, what's the worst it'll be? A: If the screw hole is horribly stripped/abused, at worst, you might have to open the screw hole with a 3/16" drill, glue in a 3/16"" Dia. maple dowel, flush the dowel to the neck, make a fresh pilot hole for the screw, and screw the neck back on with the screw tip waxed to help ease it into the new hole. If you have a few basic materials and tools readily available this should take about 15 to 20 minutes of work, including restring and tuning back to pitch. Just gluing in a wooden toothpick or two into the stripped screw hole and flush trimming to the neck would in most cases do fine.
Threaded inserts seem like a solution in search of a problem. At worst, a stripped or misplaced set of holes on a neck can be drilled out, doweled, and re-drilled and should be fine for years to come. And holes drilled straight into the wood will be less of a pain to repair than inserts that have gotten damaged or slipped out, which I've seen several times.
The added time means fewer guitars can be made in a given period of time. Raising the cost of the guitars won't make up for that loss unless the price is raised to a ridiculous level and consumers are willing to pay the higher price, which they almost always are not willing to do.
Chris, thanks for the replies. Just finished watching your original insert video. I think I saw it a long time ago and that is what gave me the idea for wood inserts for the pickguard. I was surprised you used grommets rather than a neck plate. I thought neck plates were used to provide additional stability to the 4 bolts. But I like the idea of recessed grommets. Any negatives to using grommets over a neck plate.? I love Strats not only for their looks and feel but they are like old Chevy's and can be endlessly customized and there are a lot of custom parts for them. Plus I have never found an OEM neck I liked but after market necks are a must for me to get the perfect feel. Thanks again.
The youtuber WoodcraftBySuman did some tests with threaded inserts. I was surprised to see, the superiority of wood threads compared to metal threaded inserts. check out his video with title "this is the problem with threaded inserts".
As a fellow business owner, I always think it's better to explain a design decision based on the benefits to the customer or consumer, NOT that it helps your "profit margin". This is almost always perceived w/ a negative opinion. Personally, I don't think it's a lot more work or difficult to use inserts versus wood screws. It could come down to whether you're building heirloom instruments for future generations or only for the next decade. You'll never be able to control if your customers take their necks off once a week or once a decade. Thanks, I appreciate the discussion!
lol... I sell Neck insert kits on eBay. A guy from PRS bought a set to fix someones guitar after trying to take the neck off without loosening the strings
I'll agree with you there. My worry is someone crossthreading the machine screw in the insert and you get an instant headache. Plus, there is no scientific evidence to prove tone factors in any measurable way with the neck joint.
I have bought inserts at Lowe's and tried this on a Squier. It was already a very resonant guitar and it most definitely improved the resonance quite a bit. I'd definitely request this on a custom shop build
This usually means the neck joint wasn't that tight to begin with and all you did was bring it up to where it should have been all along with just wood screws.
imo inserts with actual bolts is a much better process since you can torque down the neck to body giving a better wood to wood surface than any wood screw can do plus its much stronger. I would do it because of that reason not what the customer thinks. Its a better option so therefore do it. The customer will see it if they ever remove the neck.
I have to agree. Threaded inserts offer no benefit unless regular removal is planned. They require more timber to be removed (than wood screws) and provide another place for error during construction.
I would say there are good and bad with inserts like if you don't use locktite they may loosen over time and you will have to make sure to always make sure they are snug.
Use insert nut its good for sustain in guitar. Im try that and not only me say that my friend player and guitaris agree for use insert nut in neck guitar bolt on. Dont worry just player guitar can feeling this
I think one TH-camr won't say their name mentioned they do that as an upgrade for $120 but if that price is added on to a full build I feel like most consumers would choose not to have it
Using bolts and inserts instead of wood screws is overkill, a mechanical-engineering itch being scratched, while ignoring acoustical-engineering basics. Intuition and measurement will tell you that better tone will be achieved by retaining more wood and adding less metal (or glue) to the crucial vibrational-transfer area where the neck joins the body. Master luthier Terry McInturff likens the neck to a tone filter of sorts, and I agree. Metallic tones and brightness can always be produced post-guitar, but fullness, richness, and solidity, plus the phase-coherent clarity that's preserved by use of less deflecting/diffracting metal requires the least-complex and -massive attachment methods.
Both options can fail due to poor human handling. Learn how to align and re-insert a screw, you will limit the strip out of wooden threads. (Yes, there is a best practice for this.) Owners (and factories) cross thread metal-to-metal fasteners too. Just a different yet similar problem.
As a hobbyist builder I like using brass inserts as I do take the neck on and off frequently during a build as Chris mentioned. There's something about knowing the integrity of the threads will be consistent forever versus degrading each time the neck is removed. This is also beneficial if the truss rod is adjusted at the heel as many of my builds are. Other than that, I agree, there's no tonal or functional benefit. I'm sure this is mentioned somewhere, but it's helpful to generate threads using the appropriate tap to ensure the insert goes in without tear-out.
That makes since to me.
One of THE worst things is when you've removed the neck on something cheap and upon reinstallation the low quality screws snaps off. Been there and done that.
The youtuber WoodcraftBySuman did some tests with threaded inserts. I was surprised to see, the superiority of wood threads compared to metal threaded inserts.
check out his video with title "this is the problem with threaded inserts".
I agree. At most, screw inserts are a nice touch for a high end guitar. To me, getting those steel plates off and using ferrules is far more beneficial. Better look and easier to make a nice comfortable heel shape.
Exactly. I really love a smooth neck/heel transition and I'm not a fan of the steel plate.
Thank you sir! I took up guitar building/repair etc... about 3 years ago as my retirement hobby and came full circle like you with neck joining...neck screws work just fine if you need to be economical. I just finished my 75th guitar and I am, like you, starting to go the set-neck route. I never commented on a video before but have been watching for years...keep up the great videos my friend.
You hit the nail square on the head... For a fastener that may never come off in the life of a guitar (the neck), it's not worth the hassle. However, I always use them where pickups are installed and pick guards (electronic covers) are attached.
I've fitted threaded inserts on my guitars, and can hear a definite improvement in tone compared to wood screws (because of the tighter joint, not the different screws). Also, as someone who bends his neck for vibrato, machine screws are far less likely to come loose than wood screws; something that happened once during a gig many years ago, throwing my guitar way out of tune. Installing inserts is very easy for anyone with an ounce of common sense and a little DIY aptitude. I recommend them.
Hi Chris. I think you explained this with great clarity. I would add two things. First, there is an argument that threaded inserts are actually LESS stable than screws because they take up more space in the neck, reducing its integrity. Second, I believe your argument only applies to solid body guitars. I build exclusively acoustics and here threaded inserts are useful if you don't want to go down the dovetail route. You can refine the neck angle repeatedly both during the build (important if you are a beginner) and, more importantly, when the time comes (as it inevitably will on an acoustic that is built appropriately lightly) for a neck reset, the job is highly simplified for you or the next repair person down the road. Having said all that, there is a well known Italian acoustic maker (admittedly fairly low end) that uses woodscrews, and lutes are traitionally made with a big NAIL reinforcing the neck/body joint! Finally, a very high end resonator guitar maker uses machine screws and inserts to fit the cover plate! It's a great idea given the dimensions involved, but how often does a coverplate come off? Probably only if you have trouble with the spider or the cone, in which case you are likely to have other things on your mind than the odd stripped tiny screw hole!
Your explanation makes perfect sense. A lot of us have set in necks like Gibson, Gretsch, Epiphone, etc.
I started down that road, thinking there would be some magical tone advantage......my guitar tech quickly put the breaks on it. He's also a custom guitar builder and his thoughts are very much in line with yours.
Great video/information. Thank you.
I agree with your views, but I actually had a case where using machine screws and inserts made sense. For awhile I had to travel frequently and I wanted to bring a guitar along. After awhile I settled on modifying a Peavey T60 that I got from a pawn shop for a good price, and modified the neck with machine screw inserts. I could then fit the guitar into my checked suitcase without worrying about whether or not I would have room for it as a carry-on. When I got to my destination, it took about 10 minutes to put the neck back on, put on strings (using Sperzel locking tuners) and tune up. This was a low-cost way to have a good, sturdy, reliable travel guitar.
T60 is one heavy guitar for a carry on 🤣 my son has mine, and it’s in pieces hoping to rebuild some day 👍🏻
Hi Chris, I will send you a couple of our Nectite Inserts and screws. They are made of steel with hex drive, and come with a tool to insert them easily into the wood. I wonder if that would change your mind, at least a bit :-) We sold thousands of these kits, with no complaints so far! All the best and thanks for the great videos!
if you want to make the heel into a nice shape i think that if you properly install the inserts then you can get away with one insert and 2 supporting screws...since the brunt of the strain is taken up by the screws or inserts closest to the outside edge of the pocket.. and the side to side movement of the neck is supported by the pocket sides themselves
I don’t think it’s a matter of better tone, perceived value or customer demand (or lack of demand). I think it’s a matter of offering a better constructed guitar. The correct SS or hardened steel (brass is to soft) insert with correct threads (NOT self forming/cutting) that are tapped prior to threading the insert in are key to having the best connection. This type of fastener is superior to wood screws hands down. IMHO building the best constructed guitars with the best construction methods, whether anyone else appreciates it or not, is why I use proper inserts and machine screws.
Warwick uses a lot of threaded inserts. Their pickup height and control cavity screws use threaded inserts.
@@riokinsey2134 The automotive ones with red thread locker on them work well. I use 8-32 inside threads. The key is to 1) Thread tap the hole in the neck to the threads on the outside of the insert. 2) Clean the thread locker off with a wire brush, then clean them spotless with break cleaner, mineral spirits or lacquer thinner. 3) I like to use a slow cure epoxy (Fasco 101 Epoxy Glue, best stuff ever) in the hole, thread in the insert, clean off any excess and leave it be for 24 hours. The other key is to only use hand tools to put the neck on. A power tool is not your friend in this application.
It's not what you do, it's how you do it. Many companies, Fender included, do a poor job of heel/ pocket fitment and depth. If well executed it is fine,
but so often you need to shim etc. I used to work for a manufacturer who put little threaded metal blocks in the neck under the fretboard. The necks were literally bolted on. It was all cnc routed so
all fitted together perfectly. Also, removable necks are great in manufacturing because it simplifies the finishing process as well.
I use t-nuts that get installed in between the neck and the fretboard. Buyers may not care, but from a QC point of view, it's 2 extra minutes on the CNC, pennies for the nuts and a cast iron guarantee that the neck will be firmly fixed to the body.
Do players care that you're using threaded inserts? maybe not. Do they care if their guitar shows up and the neck has some wiggle?
I tried t-nuts a couple of times. However, on one build the prongs flattened out and the t-nut started to spin!
@@HighlineGuitars I mill little holes for the prongs to seat down into. Again, takes a few extra seconds on the CNC, but I feel like it's worth it.
@@johnnyforeignerguitars More than anything, your approach shows the benefit of CNC. What would take an hour or two the old school way, only takes minutes or seconds with CNC.
@@HighlineGuitars I mean, obviously you sacrifice TOAN when you use a CNC and I can't really call myself a real luthier since I don't only use hand tools that I forged myself, but I'm okay with that :)
I put some hardwood plugs to the soft wood and the use screw. I do the same for tuners if mahogany neck. Fast, but won't get screwed so easy. In my own guitar, I made hardwood plugs for the bridge too, because of the softwood top on the maple body and made the studs go through body
I have owned several bolt-ons over the years and never removed a neck until I started doing my first build. Building them now, yeah theres been a few guitars that needed to have the neck on and off a few times as I tweak things for final assembly. I just use high quality #10 x 1.5 stainless wood screws ( Robertson of course like any good Canadian) and countersink washers.
the one benefit, in my humble opinion, of using inserts is for angled/contoured heels.
How is that a benefit?
@@HighlineGuitars screws work, but if you use a plate on a contoured heel it will rock-depending on the contour, obviously.
@@antonrandle4146 I think only an idiot would use a plate on a contoured heel! The rest of use would use ferrules.
@@HighlineGuitars that's my point, lol
On the , at nauseum,
SUSTAIN front years ago ran an actual lab experiment using my 20 guitar collection and the winner was my 1970s Hagstrom Swede ( bolt on) held note for 28 seconds. Why you need that if average song is 3.5 minutes?
As a carpenter who recently started building guitars I totally relate to this, we always take extra steps hoping the consumer will appreciate it but usually they don't even care
I have two basses with threaded inserts in the necks. One of them I played for quite a while before I had the inserts installed for me, and in comparing the two I was able to recognise a definite improvement in the tone of the bass. The note seemed to be much more solid after I plucked the string, there was much more body to it, and sustain certainly seemed to be much better.
I would personally swear by threaded inserts on any newly built guitar, and I'm actually just about to install them in a bass I'm putting together just now.
I used machine screw inserts on my first build. I later changed it to wood screws when I replaced the neck. All the rest of my builds (I stopped counting around 70) use wood screws. Measured on the needs vs nice vs bling scale, machine screw inserts are just bling, unless you're really sloppy with a Phillips head. I prefer bolt-on necks to set necks for the adjustability and ease of repair and replacement and will commonly convert set neck kit builds to bolt-on necks.
Makes perfect sense.
Related: why have a heel on a neck? I understand it would have an advantage on a bolt-on neck, more stability. But on a set neck, would it not possibly have an advantage to not have a heel so there be more options for a smoother transition into the body including comfort cuts?.
What is your opinion?
With a set neck, you still need sufficient area for the glue to form a good bond between the neck and the body. That's what the heel is for. You could minimize the heel, but that could lead to a weak joint.
I'll simplify this video - Threaded inserts are a pain in the ass to install and they offer very little benefit. I started using them after watching Chris install them. It's the one thing I hated doing when building and I screwed a few necks by buggering up the holes for the inserts. I stopped using them after about 10 guitars because my actual Strats and Teles play great and I have no issues with taking the necks off and on those so if it worked for Leo it'll work for me. I love that Chris tries stuff and then posts videos when he changes techniques - it's why his videos are so great and why I use them as a reference for my building.
really should be looked at on jazzmaster/jaguars/offsets more, since the shimming process necessitated by that infernal vibrato unit require multiple neck removals
I would say it depends on the wood, harder types do with the screws just fine, where as softer ones may require threads. Say if you go with maple, as most bolt on's are - screws are fine, but if you want mahogany neck, threaded option seems like a better one. Curious what are your thoughts on this.
The use of threaded inserts still means you're cutting threads into wood. The difference is that you're cutting the threads with an insert rather than the screw itself. While the screw won't easily strip the threads of the insert, over torquing the screw can cause the insert to stip the threads it cut into the wood. I would never make a bolt-in Mahogany neck.
@@HighlineGuitars Thanks for responding! You think that mahogany is worthless as a neck? I'm putting together a les paul with bolt on for myself, thinking of using mahogany. That said, as i'm not bound to using fender's 4 screws on the bottom method or their dimensions, considering other options, still thinking how to do it right.
@@ETILHK54 Where did I say that Mahogany is worthless as a neck?
@@HighlineGuitars "I would never make a bolt-on mahogany neck", i took it as mahogany necks are no go, or were you talking about yourself specifically?
@@ETILHK54 BOLT-ON!! That hardly means I wouldn't use Mahogany for a set-in or a neck through.
Chris, one last question. When you used wood inserts and bolts what diameter and length bolt did you use.? Especially when you were putting inserts in a neck that had already used a wood screw? Thanks, again.
I typically used 10-24 inserts. The length depends on the design of the guitar and how thick the body wood under the neck combined with the neck heel's thickness. Usually 1-1/2."
I am very interested in this topic. I have purchased threaded inserts but hadn't made up my mind whether to use them or not. And if I use them to bolt on the neck whether I need to put two inserts in each hole, because they are so short, in order to get a tight grip. Thanks for doing this video
Do not need 2 in each hole. Have used them on half dozen guitars
That's easy in my book, if it ain't broke dont worry about it. Think of your inserts as a "backup plan" should an issue arise. You already have the parts.
I've personally owned over a dozen guitars with floyd rose tremelo systems. When you "dive bomb" your taking nearly all the pressure off the bolts then re applying that pressure as the guitar returns to pitch. Check the screws when you change your strings. You may find them a tad loose for various reasons, but if you aggressively whammy and dive bomb and you find your screws loose, maybe consider installing them. Or having them installed.
Maybe you have a guitar that you need to remove the neck in order to adjust the truss rod. And you live in a state where there are severe temperature and humidity changes. And you like your action super low and everytime there's a slight change in humidity your guitar frets out and buzzes. And its probably got a thin neck too. Well now you're probably going to NEED those inserts eventually. Maybe you are concerned about the damage caused by the stripping of the threads when and if this happens.
Relax.. you would most likely know these troubles are headed this way. You are obviously the most detail oriented person alive lol
I never had these or feel I needed these. Show me SONGS where you need the loads of sustain your after anyways.
"Oy, get my paul. This strat'll never sustain enough to get me through this number" hysterical...
I am about to order a custom guitar and threaded inserts are exactly why i found this video. I guess I'm the 10% that does care.
Can you just install threaded inserts AFTER original threads are stripped out?
Probably.
I have to back the screws out of my neck every time I need to make a truss rod adjustment, and it's a trial and error process so sometimes I have to do it multiple times before I get it right under string tension. Threaded inserts on those vintage fenders is a nice thing to have.
The only real reason to use threaded inserts on a guitar, in my opinion, is if the neck needs to come off frequently - either due to a vintage heel-adjusted truss rod (not the modern thumbscrew ones), or if it's meant to be a "backpack" option where you can take the neck off to fit it in a small backpack (which some guitarists do to expedite getting it in an overhead bin on an airplane).
That's where value would be added - threaded inserts last longer under frequent removal and adjustment, so the guitar would last a lot longer in that capacity.
I build cigar box guitars and recently did a screwed on neck to facilitate taking off the neck to make it easier to pack the guitar in luggage for traveling ... works great, but after removing and replacing the neck a number of times I thought, hmmm, those threads in the neck are going to be getting weaker the more I do this... so, the next travel cbg I build will have threaded inserts...
Hi. Thanks for the video.... I don't know much about building guitars, but I do know a bit about fasteners. I used to wonder why more bolt ons didn't have threaded inserts... Then I thought how many times are you gonna take the neck on and off of a guitar?
What screw size do you use? A #10?. A #8? I use or spec out threaded inserts on projects that are portable or taken apart regularly. Even then, I prefer riv-nuts if possible, which really wouldn't work too well for guitar necks. Also. continued vibration or movement can make screws in inserts come loose over time. Especially with 10-24 and 1/4-20 machine screws. You could use lock-tite but I think that would defeat the purpose and run the risk of popping out the insert when loosening the screw
I dunno. If you just HAVE to repeatedly take the neck on and off a guitar for some reason, why use screws at all? Rare earth magnets!
Rare Earth magnets (neodymium) probably wouldn't be strong enough. Also, they would mess with the magnetic field of the pickups. In the past, I used #10 and #8. Both work well and I have no preference.
Perfect video Chris, great explanation from a builders and practical approach to bolt on necks.
I would like to ask one thing that I have been wondering for a long time. Over the past hundreds of years people have been growing taller, bigger, and sizes - for clothing as well as shoe sizes - followed the trend. The average height of a male in medieval times was 170 cm (today is 177 cm in the US). I see nowadays more and more people struggling with getting a clean sound because of the neck width of guitars. Even in classical guitars, with a nut width of 54 mm, are strings placed so close to each other that today's male fingers have often problems with pressing one string and not dampening the adyacent. My question is if you are getting more and more requests for wider necks or if people either do not notice or decide to limit themselves to the chords they can play. I am surprised that this ergonomy issue is not discussed more often.
I have never had a request for a wider neck. However, I have had requests to make necks that are narrower than usual.
0:52 I believe this is officially not a woodscrew though, but I take you'll use a metal plate right?
It's a wood screw. Most wood screws have a short unthreaded section right after the head. These are custom made to be full threaded. I don't use them anymore as I prefer the traditional wood screw. I'll be using ferrules instead of a plate.
Thread inserts have there place in there use and application. But I do agree with your other statement on tonality. Thread there is not that much more time that you claim, you have to drill a pilot hole for a standard wood screw so I dont understand the complaint???? the only thing is your having to do two time the fastener insert. Also inserts are for the application of machine threads so if you wanted a flat head hex head screw by design you will have to tap or use an insert. But if you are just using a chrome oval head wood screw then you are correct but that is a designer or cost issue. The extra hour or two sounds extreme and as a gimmick they are not but I understand what your driving at. Good conversation overall!
Thanks for the realistic summary. I kinda fooled myself into using threaded inserts as the "better" solution, but as you said, i just built my first bass for myself and just like the look of the inserts and the counterpieces, since it looks more "boutique" . I'll probably never remove the neck again as soon as the build is done though
I recently had success on a personal parts guitar using 18-8 stainless steel "knife thread" 10-24 tapping inserts (95807A200) from McMaster-Carr. These are 1/2 long and require a wide hole so I was nervous and experimented in a separate block of hardwood with the pilot hole size so that I wouldn't crack the maple neck by trying to install them in a pilot hole that was too small. The width of the insert pilot holes also requires the removal of wood very close to the edge of the neck, so it feels a bit risky with this large size of an insert. Chris is right -- the pilot holes need to be dead-on perfect. One of my insert placements was not perfect and I had to then widen the corresponding bolt hole in the body to compensate for the mistake. The widened hole is invisible because it's under a neck plate, but I know it is there. I'm writing this comment so that you go in knowing how precise and careful you need to be if you attempt this. Also, in addition to the inserts themselves, you will want to buy a $10 installation bit which will keep the insert aligned with the pilot hole as you install it. I hand-turned my inserts into the pilot holes with the installation bit in the chuck of a drill press to make sure that it went in straight. Good luck!
I like threaded inserts because.. I CRAVE THE STRENGTH AND CERTAINTY OF STEEL
on a more serious note, I'm in the minority who actually takes on and off the neck quite a bit (as others have pointed out, it's great for traveling, and using a less targetable by thieves bagagge is a nice addition)
and especially on my fretless bass with added piezo it _does_ improve the timbre
I share the same experiences as you Chris on the topic of wood screws vs threaded inserts with machine screws. I've built several with both. It's true 90%+ of guitar players don't care about threaded inserts, or don't even know what they are, or as you've mentioned just never remove the neck from their guitar. My go to method now is simply a la fender, which also allows me to use custom engraved neck plates as a nice touch. Once I drill my pilots in the neck and thread the holes, I'll then remove the screw and wick the neck holes/threads with thin CA glue to uphold the integrity....but hey, no one even knows that or would even care lol
Most people won't touch the neck unless it needs a shim. OR if they have a vintage style neck with the truss rod adjustment at the heel and have to remove the neck to do so.
Great video! How would you go about drilling the holes for an angled bottom neck pocket? I'm trying to create my own design, using a flat heel/tenon and an angled bottom pocket and I'm not sure how to go about doing it as I can't just drill perpendicular holes in this case. Your input would be much appreciated!
You'll need to make a clamping fixture to hold the parts at the desired angle while you drill.
For me, the one place threaded inserts are really helpful is on bolt neck guitars with heel adjust truss rod, like 90% of fender custom shop guitars, or the fender vintage reissues, like the AVRIs or the American Originals. If you live in a changeable climate and have to adjust the truss rod seasonally, and have one of these kind of necks, I’d say it was worth it
I use heel adjusted truss rods sometimes. However, I use modern truss rods which can be adjusted without removing the neck.
It looks like Chris is using brass inserts and not steel. I ordered steel for my neck. Matt of Texas Toast Guitars uses steel inserts. It'll be interesting to see what Chris has experienced. Brass seem easiest to get unless I just haven't found a decent supplier. Thanks Chris.
Prepare to be surprised. And maybe a little disappointed.
@@chipsterb4946 That would be the Cliff Clavin effect. People making up stuff to sound smart.
@@chipsterb4946 Only to jerks.
3 scenarios for inserts: I shipped guitar to Brazil so reduced cost & if you have Fender neck w body side adjustment or if you travel and want to put guitar in suitcase ( see Erlewine story about Bill Kirchen).Otherwise I agree w video, having used on half dozen guitars. But I feel stainless steel bolts w steel inserts (a la Texas Toast) do feel,in my frenzied mind, tighter. Again, agree most people could care less, 😄
J Kelly I'm interested in your experience. My fear is the wood insert is too short for a solid grip. The insert needs to be longer or 2 used one at the top of the hole and the other deep down near the end of the bolt to get a solid unmovable neck. What is your experience? Thanks.
I'll chime in here. Don't try stacking inserts. It's totally unnecessary. Also, if the threads don't match up between the two stacked inserts, you'll have problems.
Setting in the neck is what I prefer to solve the problem with bolt-ons. Unless the the screws are straight, the heel is absolutely flat and the pocket done correctly you end up with necks that are as unstable as a board balanced on a rolling pin.
Thank your for this video. I was wondering about the pluses and minuses of threaded inserts. During the pandemic I assembled several Tele and Strat style partscaster guitars, some with 24.75 scale lengths, rosewood, maple, ebony fretboards, and various neck shapes, and all sorts of pick-ups and found that every once in a while switching out the neck improves the instrument for the sound and playability I was going for. For guitars I use for more bending strings, I prefer thinner nut width and guitars for playing more complex jazzy chords, slightly wider nut widths work better..., In other words, keeping neck installing simple and consistent allows for much easier mixing and matching to find the best neck to body combination --and wood screws seem to be more forgiving. (Since the neck pocket for the tele and strat are not the same I don't mix tele necks with strat bodies though...)
I used threaded inserts on a 5-string bass because I used a piece of old growth Douglas fir for the neck and I was concerned about stripping the soft wood. I later made several guitars using the same wood for the neck and wood screws without any issues whatsoever. I’m inclined to agree that it was a lot of extra work without any clear benefit.
threaded insert is time-consuming and hence costly... as an engineer and player i always liked bolt-on necks... it's simple, durable, and easily adjustable as regards to changing for a suitable the neck angle
i always thoght the poin of those are that you can apply a much higher clamping force btwn the two parts... maybe double or more. of course with using high quality inserts, not furniture style, and high tension metric screws. hardness 8 or 10.
There's no benefit to doubling the clamping force.
@@HighlineGuitars i believe what you are saying but i am an engineer and if this is true then the whole tonewood craze is a myth too. Like lot of people are saying... I won't take sides on that because I am left-handed and we have very little chance to try out different guitars and compare them. but if tonewood exists and there is a big resonance to them then the clamping force indeed matter.
we were learning about this on a different scale of course in architecture these are called engineered wood structures and a lot of similar joints are in place. those can be designed for stresses, torques etc as per design metods. looking forward to watching your video about the actual install
@@kbuss10 Architecture is one thing, guitars are another. Apples to oranges. I am not aware of any scientific study that proves increasing clamping force improves resoance in an electric guitar. Millions of bolt-in necks have been made without threaded inserts for over 8 decades and they have been used to record more great songs than I could ever count.
woodscrews have this smooth top, right?
customization and maintenance require inserts, also the precision of inserts is superior than just having the SCReW going into the wood
Millions of guitars with wood screws can't be wrong.
You all should watch the latest clip from Dylan Talks Tone. He does a reaction video to a fellows video on tone wood or the lack thereof, it's awesome. As usual you brought us food for thought Chris.
I saw it and have recommended it as well.
I use threaded inserts because I do end up taking the neck on and off multiple times as I build. It's just a hobby for me. It also makes me feel better ;) How much better mechanically that is (sure, no tone difference, and a mechanical overkill) and the ability to take necks off, make changes, swap them etc. with no worry. I'm sure that if you *really* wanted to use those you could streamline your process with a couple of jigs/templates, I mean it's drilling four holes and then threading in that insert. You're still drilling 4 holes for wood screws. The cost of the inserts and the machine screws is nothing. But if your customers don't care, and it saves you even a tiny bit of time, then it's definitely the right thing for you. Some people might even prefer the more "traditional" methods...
Good explanation.
Great episode Chris , I’m currently having this debate for my own designs .
Good food for thought
The only time I used them was when I was using Moses Graphite necks. Completely different properties than wood.
Great point about most folks not removing the neck to begin with. Question: Would you still use the approach of using wood screws over inserts if making a neck out of a non-wood material such as epoxy or graphite? My understanding with the wood screws is that because the material doesn't give in the same way wood does it seems like a narrow use case where the inserts makes more sense to keep everything together, but this could just be tone-lore.
I like the idea and the one guitar I have that has inserts does happen to have good sustain.
Threaded inserts are wondeful if you travel frequently and want to disassemble yourg uitar and bring it as carry-on luggage.
Very insightful!
Glad you enjoyed it
I’m a hobby builder and I’ve always been surprised that $4000 guitars are assembled using wood screws. In fact I’ve often been surprised that Strat tremolo springs are also affixed using wood screws, in spite of the fact that they are loaded in tension. I use inserts even on my factory guitars. I’m working on a bolt on neck built from carbon fiber as I think it may be a superior material for that purpose. I forgot to mention that the correct way to use inserts on a neck would be to install them from the top prior to gluing on the fret board.
I can’t count the number of guitars I’ve seen where the threaded inserts that came loose after over tightening the screws.
Nice explanation Chris. I’ve been exchanging necks for years. All I do is every once in a while add a dab of carpenter’s glue to each neck hole (and maybe body hole) get a new set of appropriate stainless oval head screws and go back to playing. I really liked that you mentioned it’s the ‘whole’ sum of the guitar’s parts that characterize it’s ‘soul’ - so to speak…wood, hardware and I believe, even the shape of the body. I enjoy listening to your journey and your love of teaching.
I like the inserts simple because I think they're cool. That being said, In a modern construction neck with the trussrod accessible without needing to take the neck off, the benefits are much less, because how often is someone realistically going to be taking the neck off of that kind of guitar? The end user would take a neck off for two main reasons: 1.) To adjust the truss rod if it's located in the heel, or 2.) shim the neck. Only one of those two is going to be repeated multiple times throughout the guitar's life. The ironic part is that truss rod adjustments in the heel are a very inconvenient "vintage" spec, and if someone is that far into the vintage "mojo" where they willingly choose something as inconvenient as that, there is no way they'll settle for "modern" threaded inserts.
Threaded inserts are in my opinion a negative as a builder/repair minded person. The reason these inserts exist is primarily for softer woods where a smaller wood screw wood be prone to pulling the threads. They also allow people to over tighten the screws pulling the washers or ferrules into the body. Another issue is wood screws if done properly should lightly thread thru the body, not enough to cause threads but should be tight enough that you can’t pull them out by hand before engaging the neck. This greatly helps in securing the neck in the pocket from rotating. Machine screws having tighter finer threads don’t bite into the holes in the body and are much more prone to being sloppy. Inserts are for soft wood and particle board not maple and mahogany
Once again, changing your opinion based on evidence. I like your style. That said… I do like that premium look and given I am only building for myself or fiends, I will likely do one more bolt on and will prob use threaded inserts. It does look premium and I have no time constraints. 👍🏻
Right on about the install on those bushings (must be perfectly straight) and very time consuming.
I have a repair shop and use them for a rescue method on stripped bolt holes.
I understand your issues with inserts but from your experience do they offer a good fit without movement for the neck attachment? I would think the insert would need to be longer to create a good fit that wouldn't move.
I want to only own 1 or 2 partscasters but build out 4 or 5 pickguards and pop them in and out as desired. I assumed that would quickly cause the pickguard holes to lose grip so I thought wood inserts would be the right answer for this application. Then I thought maybe they would be a good solution for attaching my hardtail bridge and neck. So other than time what is your experience with wood inserts? Thanks for the video.
They do exactly what they're supposed to do. However, my customers don't care and don't want to pay extra for them.
You raise a good point. If they are a big improvement, why aren't they being used on bridges, pickguards, strap buttons....? It's all about cost. Plus pretty much anyone can fix a wood hole that is stripped with some simple tools. Fixing brass or steel inserts is more complicated.
I just think the classic square neck plate is uncomfortable
It's about 2 years late but I'll pile onto the not-worth-using inserts side of this anyway with a practical rhetorical question and answer--Q: If in the event you strip out screw holes in a neck heel from using wood screws like Fender, what's the worst it'll be?
A: If the screw hole is horribly stripped/abused, at worst, you might have to open the screw hole with a 3/16" drill, glue in a 3/16"" Dia. maple dowel, flush the dowel to the neck, make a fresh pilot hole for the screw, and screw the neck back on with the screw tip waxed to help ease it into the new hole. If you have a few basic materials and tools readily available this should take about 15 to 20 minutes of work, including restring and tuning back to pitch.
Just gluing in a wooden toothpick or two into the stripped screw hole and flush trimming to the neck would in most cases do fine.
great video
Thanks for the visit
Threaded inserts seem like a solution in search of a problem. At worst, a stripped or misplaced set of holes on a neck can be drilled out, doweled, and re-drilled and should be fine for years to come. And holes drilled straight into the wood will be less of a pain to repair than inserts that have gotten damaged or slipped out, which I've seen several times.
The inserts could be helpful for heel adjust truss Rods. Especially vintage-y style Strats and copies
How can the inserts raise the price for the buyer AND lower your profit? Doesn't the higher cost to the buyer cover the profit "loss"?
The added time means fewer guitars can be made in a given period of time. Raising the cost of the guitars won't make up for that loss unless the price is raised to a ridiculous level and consumers are willing to pay the higher price, which they almost always are not willing to do.
Exactly and if you do strip out the neck then you might think about inserts
Or plug the hole with a hardwood dowel and redrill.
Chris, thanks for the replies. Just finished watching your original insert video. I think I saw it a long time ago and that is what gave me the idea for wood inserts for the pickguard. I was surprised you used grommets rather than a neck plate. I thought neck plates were used to provide additional stability to the 4 bolts. But I like the idea of recessed grommets. Any negatives to using grommets over a neck plate.? I love Strats not only for their looks and feel but they are like old Chevy's and can be endlessly customized and there are a lot of custom parts for them. Plus I have never found an OEM neck I liked but after market necks are a must for me to get the perfect feel. Thanks again.
You know, your t-shirt should say "keep calm and play my guitar." Just saying.👌😎👍
The youtuber WoodcraftBySuman did some tests with threaded inserts. I was surprised to see, the superiority of wood threads compared to metal threaded inserts.
check out his video with title "this is the problem with threaded inserts".
With replacement, repair, or upgrades in mind, the standard Fender pocket, wood screw, and plate is truly modular.
Threaded inserts are awesome on the spoilboard of the CNC 😂
As a fellow business owner, I always think it's better to explain a design decision based on the benefits to the customer or consumer, NOT that it helps your "profit margin". This is almost always perceived w/ a negative opinion. Personally, I don't think it's a lot more work or difficult to use inserts versus wood screws. It could come down to whether you're building heirloom instruments for future generations or only for the next decade. You'll never be able to control if your customers take their necks off once a week or once a decade. Thanks, I appreciate the discussion!
lol... I sell Neck insert kits on eBay. A guy from PRS bought a set to fix someones guitar after trying to take the neck off without loosening the strings
I'll agree with you there. My worry is someone crossthreading the machine screw in the insert and you get an instant headache. Plus, there is no scientific evidence to prove tone factors in any measurable way with the neck joint.
I have bought inserts at Lowe's and tried this on a Squier. It was already a very resonant guitar and it most definitely improved the resonance quite a bit. I'd definitely request this on a custom shop build
This usually means the neck joint wasn't that tight to begin with and all you did was bring it up to where it should have been all along with just wood screws.
I'd say a good place for inserts are control cavities and maybe pickup height screws. 🤷♂
You would think. However threaded inserts that small are almost useless.
@@HighlineGuitars i have them on a couple basses. I wouldn't say they're useless, more pointless 😆
imo inserts with actual bolts is a much better process since you can torque down the neck to body giving a better wood to wood surface than any wood screw can do plus its much stronger. I would do it because of that reason not what the customer thinks. Its a better option so therefore do it. The customer will see it if they ever remove the neck.
I have to agree. Threaded inserts offer no benefit unless regular removal is planned. They require more timber to be removed (than wood screws) and provide another place for error during construction.
I would say there are good and bad with inserts like if you don't use locktite they may loosen over time and you will have to make sure to always make sure they are snug.
Use insert nut its good for sustain in guitar. Im try that and not only me say that my friend player and guitaris agree for use insert nut in neck guitar bolt on. Dont worry just player guitar can feeling this
That's one of those guitar building myths.
I think one TH-camr won't say their name mentioned they do that as an upgrade for $120 but if that price is added on to a full build I feel like most consumers would choose not to have it
That's exactly my experience.
I used them for my partscaster. The inserts went in just fine. The sustain improved. Just be sure to use the correct drill diameter. 👍
Watch this video and you'll rethink the sustain improvement: th-cam.com/video/L9weUo7rP3s/w-d-xo.html
I added an aluminum trem block as well. Perhaps that's where all the sustain came from
Dont think so I mean the threaded insert will maintain its shape opposite to the wood crumbling. If regularly removing your neck is your thing
Using bolts and inserts instead of wood screws is overkill, a mechanical-engineering itch being scratched, while ignoring acoustical-engineering basics. Intuition and measurement will tell you that better tone will be achieved by retaining more wood and adding less metal (or glue) to the crucial vibrational-transfer area where the neck joins the body. Master luthier Terry McInturff likens the neck to a tone filter of sorts, and I agree. Metallic tones and brightness can always be produced post-guitar, but fullness, richness, and solidity, plus the phase-coherent clarity that's preserved by use of less deflecting/diffracting metal requires the least-complex and -massive attachment methods.
I am famous. That was my comment, thank you Chris.
Yes you are!
Both options can fail due to poor human handling. Learn how to align and re-insert a screw, you will limit the strip out of wooden threads. (Yes, there is a best practice for this.)
Owners (and factories) cross thread metal-to-metal fasteners too. Just a different yet similar problem.
Steel inserts for the win.
Well @Angus Mackay everybody knows the brass inserts provide better tone than steel... geeez3!
When steel inserts corrode (from wood absorbing atmospheric moisture) and bond to the screw then the insert unscrews, you hope.
What are you telling me - folk don't take their necks off? It's often the first thing I do with a new guitar, take it apart!
Anything can be justified either way with a pre=existing bias.