Monarch 10EE DC Drive Retrofit 2: Fabricating an Electrical Panel for the Drive Components
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ย. 2022
- Monarch 10EE DC Drive Retrofit 2: Fabricating an Electrical Panel for the Drive Components
I am retrofitting the old tube based DC drive system - the "works in a drawer" from a circa 1952 Monarch 10EE Lathe with modern electrical components.
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Thank you for your effort in putting these videos together for us all. In my opinion these "TH-cam" videos' are the best thing to happened to internet! Two safety comment: during the video, while you were cutting your aluminum panel, you should general try to make your short cut first so you don't have to back out of the cut that far. There is the potential of pulling the blade off the wheels. The 2nd is that your guide should have been down within a 1/4" to 1/2" above the work. Again, thank you for show casing your 10EE drive retrofit. I have a 1942 10EE with a problematic drive that I am considering replacing.
Dan
Hi Keith, being an amateur machinist I enjoy and gain some nugget of knowledge from every video you put out.
Yours are the one I hope to see when I see that new videos are posted. But being a professional cabinetmaker, I was really enjoying your series on the Jimmy Diresta bandsaw restoration but it seems to have been back burnered. Hope you will be completing that one in the near future, as well as the horizontal mill. Keep ‘em coming. -Dave
Well worth the trouble for a Monarch 10EE!!!! Love those machines!!
I always enjoy seeing how you plan ahead and then carry out your projects. As always Keith thanks for an entertaining show!
That'll be easy to follow for the fellows that have the same project. Nice!
Thanks Keith, I love rewiring old equipment. Thank You...
Looking forward to seeing this progress, thankyou for sharing Keith.
Good job Keith and John.
You have added a sound board. I think you need a top guide in a felt track to prevent vibrating resonance that could damage things, as well as make a lot of noise. looks good!!
Coming together, I hope that you will be able to share the electronic upgrades with us. Either way, thanks for sharing the adventure.
Very nice. Looking forward to this project.
As per usual A Great Job and Presentation was enjoyed by us!!!!
I can't thank you enough Keith. Another fun video and project. It's really appreciated.
Great video Keith, keep'um coming..
Thank you Keith!
Thank you for sharing. Enjoyed.👍👀
Sometimes an elongated "O" shape is needed in such a panel for component wire connectors to pass through and some plastic coverings for the edges of the pass through can be added for safety.
Great job.
Thanks for sharing 👍
looking forward to the wiring of this job
Hum that 1930s vintage drill press looks just like mine. Mine is 30's from an old HIFI experimenter who was the Nations oldest active Actuary in 'north' Dallas who gave it to me.
Thanks for another educational video🤗😎🤗😎
You're right Keith, best to wait until after you have it assembled and running before sharing that info, plus, you do need that guy's permission as well.
Thanks for sharing
I bought a set of drill/tap drills from Greenlee years ago just for hand drill and tapping in sheet metal. I can't recall if I ever used them. I suspect that they were developed for the electrician for field tapping in sheet metal. I might have dug these out for this job just to see if both the tap drill and the tap mounted on the same tool was a practical idea. The problem that I have had with power tapping with a hand drill is the drill chuck cannot hold onto the hard tap shank effectively and slips, but I employed this method in my career far more often than using a hand tap handle. I don't like deep hole hand drill tapping, especially in steel, but sheet metal and cast iron works well enough to be my go to method. Keith had some trouble because he was doing his hand drill and tapping on a bearing drawer slide. Blocking that wiggle movement can prevent the novice from breaking a tap when employing the hand drill method.
Using those Greenlee taps in a 1/4” impact works better than using a drill. If you use a drill and the tap binds up the drill tends to torque over off center and break the tap whereas an impact won’t keep trying to spin, just start doing its hammering thing.
@@MrSleepProductionsInc Thank you for the suggestion. I am not a fan of drilling with an impact gun, so I wouldn't have thought to try it on the drill/tap combo.
Hand drilling taps is something that I still prefer to reserve for a 1/2" corded drill, like Milwaukee or DeWalt with a sufficiently slow RPM. Small taps are fine for cordless, but I still feel more confident with corded.
The hex drive feature on the impact driver would eliminate the tap spinning in the drill chuck.
What a cool project. I love the hot rod aspect of this lathe build. A++ work Keith
Add tray and panel ground bonding wires to the lathe frame somewhere so you have a single point unified ground from the power supply to the motor and frame. Electrical codes on grounding and bonding back in the 1950's are not the same as we now know in 2022. NFPA or IEEE.
That way the lathe operator will be safe from any electrical event and you do not get any extra electrical "noise" because of grounding and bond paths..
Interesting. I suspect a fair amount of preliminary (?) design has already been done behind the scenes to ensure there is enough room on the plate for the components (also considering heat dissipation) and that centering the plate left enough clearance from the sides. Thanks for the video.
Very interesting project and update. You may want to round off the sharp corners on that upright aluminum plate. Every time you were kneeling over it I was afraid you were going to stab yourself or poke an eye out. I'm sure there's going to be a lot more leaning over that plate and I'd hate to see you get injured.
Harbor Freight foam pads have many uses. Nice to see you using one as a kneeling pad. Wearable knee pads always seem to be a bigger problem, especially when you need to get up and mobile. I might suggest you use a router and round over the edges of that plate and maybe give the corner that presents itself a radius to keep from poking your head when you lean in quickly to see what is smoking.
Thanks for sharing enjoined
Keith, It looks like you could even put a set of drawers for some tools that are specific to that lathe.
I'm really curious how the electrical controls work as well as how it fits together mechanically.
As, in Cheech and Chong's first album "Hard Rock Comedy", and I quote, "I think he's gonna show you, J.R." at 4:00 th-cam.com/video/SZclLDlcXO0/w-d-xo.html
You know, I think some machine-turning would look outstanding on that aluminum pannel.
Drives in a drawer. :-)
Personally I'd recommend welding on a small triangular brace bracket at the intersection of those T braces. I'm worried that the weight of the motor controls hanging on the panel combined with vibration over time will weaken the unbraced welds.
Yep - that was also my first thought. That and the possibility of loud noise from the plate/tray resonating at some motor speeds. But easy enough to add braces in the middle or at the ends, if necessary.
I was wondering if adding rubber feet to isolate (both electrically and for vibration) the new mount from the metal tray would be effective.
I keep looking for updates on the Diresta band saw. Is the project finished?
I think I would put new rollers or bearings on the tray that rolls in and out before I connect everything.
I wonder of the underside is still full of crud? Maybe a good soaking of the universal solvent WD40 and then some machine oil. I am curious to see how much stuff they are going to need mounted. I suspect it will be not a lot and not very heavy.
Of course when you have it out to service the bearings it needs a coat of white or cream coloured paint on the tray and inside the machine compartment... a perfect job for an apprentice!
Not exactly a smooth roller. I’m thinking crud too - years of shop dust and old grease.
@@someguy2741 Yes a coat of paint and a generous radius on those top corners would blend right in with the other radii on the machine.
As he's mentioned before, he's doing the minimum work required to get this machine going. He's mainly using this as a prototyping platform for upgrading the other 10EE that he is in the process of fully restoring. If after he gets this all running and sees if it can actually gut a straight path, he might do some more cleanup on it, but will likely sell it off once he gets his restored 10EE going.
Hi Keith
Could you give an update on the Stoker-engine ?
Should make a quick disconnect for your electrical at the back of the plate and then some strong magnets to hold the plate in place that way if you have to work on the transformer or need to get to the back of the tray or even work on the electrical it is as easy as unplugging it and lifting it out..
Keith, will possible galvanic corrosion between the aluminum plate and the steel angle iron cause a problem with your grounding? I _assume_ that the Designer will take that into account and run separate grounding wiring "just in case" (unless it's already "Industry Standard" to do so?).
Will you be installing electrical connectors that will facilitate the installation and testing of the components?
I am curious if the control system will be “governing” the motor to hold the motor speed under varying loads. Is the motor speed the Process Variable of the control system?
I like the drawer space. How about a finger hole in the upper corner?
Hiya Keith
Whooda Thunk that I would watch twenty plus minutes of a guy making a bracelet? But he does it so naturally I tell myself. It’s four a.m. and I am really wanting to catch up with the episodes that I missed while off of the web on vacation. But you have to get up and fix the tractor I remind myself……. I think that I have caught the Rucker Syndrome, I must catch up with the latest going’s on down South with this Old Machine collector that takes the time and effort to film his knowledge. Ah shucks, it’s not that long of a video and I am still awake and I know that I’ll never get to sleep wondering what mystical electronic gizmos that have been chosen to resurrect this wonderful example of the toolmakers art……
Do you have an estimate of what that conversion is going to cost? I have a 1947 I think I might do the same thing to.
As he mentioned, he won't talk details until he has proven out his design.
I'm interested in seeing the thermal design. Even at 95% efficient you would need to dissipate over a hundred watts inside that electrical closet/cabinet. At a more typical 85 to 90% you could need to handle as much as 500 watts into the cabinet.
Good heat sinks and indeed cooling fans are indicated at that wattage level. That's about 1/3 the power of one of those plug in rolling oil-filled radiator heater looking things. Of course they don't have fans but they are physically very large to handle the dissipation into the room.
All the iron of the lathe will do the thermal dissipation. The old electronic tubes generated more heat then the new electronic converter.
@@tracteurfan4734 True, but solid-state electronics are less tolerant to heat than tubes. Tubes work because of heat - foreigners refer to tubes as "thermionic valves" that is, heat is required for them to function. Solid-state electronics reliability goes down drastically with temperature, and this system is going to take some real big-boy heat sinks and cooling, not to mention some whopping big output transistors, to pass the kind of power that is required. All that just hanging in the air is going to be challenging, couple it to the iron of the lathe and you won't be able to touch it after a few hours.
What kind of metal band saw is that? Have you shown it before?
At 10:56 - Keith mentions that he "pecks" at the drilling to break up the chips so as not to "get those lone stringy chips" (which happened at 11:48). Are these long coiled stringy chips bad? If so, in what way? Thanks.
If you allow them to get too long, the centrifugal force will cause them to extend out and start to rotate like the blades of a fan, the longer they are, the higher the speed at their ends and the closer they will get to your hand if you are holding the piece with your hand, they can cut your hand or break off and hurt you elsewhere on your body.
They can also get caught in the helical grooves of the drill bit and distort the hole, scratch the surface of the part you are drilling or jam the drill bit in the hole causing it to break.
Hello Keith. Aluminum makes the steel rust. Maybe paint the steel or put some tape between the steel and the aluminum?
I also had thought of galvanic corrosion. I'm sure you considered that.
Yep. Like you said it doesn't take much of a barrier to prevent. I was thinking a gasket or even a non-ferrous washer would do the trick. I'm sure Keith has thought of this, just didn't address it in this video.
I’m just a little bit concerned about the support for that aluminum plate. Yes, it’s probably fine. But I’d prefer to see an angle from the bottom of the horizontal angle to the top screw of the vertical angle and plate, on at least both ends of one side of the plate, preferably both sides. There’s a lot of torque and leverage at the top of that plate. I don’t know how much the electronics will weigh, but those angles aren’t that sturdy. If they were 1.25” by a 1/4”, I wouldn’t be as concerned.
Old English saying ... "nice as ninepence"
(corruption of nice as ninepins, from the neat and precise ordering of the skittles in the game of ninepins.)
👌👌👍👍
👍😎👍
vibration isolation for modern electronics?
Damn! No cutting ole when tapping....
after everything is assembled & tested I would replace those regular nuts for nylock nuts to guard against vibration loosening that panel.. my 2 cents.
What happened to the jimmy diresta bandsaw?
Nice job as always Keith. Quick question for you: What is happening with the Coal Engine for the train restoration? Did you ever come up with a solution for getting those ways machined in it???
Little off subject but did I miss something? What happened to the Jimmy Band Saw Project?
Got a couple of sharp corners on the top of your aluminum panel and on the angle iron uprights that should be rounded off on the disc sander, then paint the tray and angle iron brackets ready for assembly.
A Monarch 10EE is only a 12x20 lathe. Rather a small one. It seems a lot of effort to gain not a lot of capability. The basic lathe precision is certainty high, but then again, isn't usable accurately set by how accurately one trams in a part in a four jaw chuck? Of course there is always the restoration challenge. But I wonder. Cheers.
About your concerns in sharing the design and implementation process of the electrical system, I think that people would be just as interested in the journey as they are the destination.
You might feel that the system design is "not ready for prime time" and that's likely true but the process of reaching "ready for prime time" is something I want to see.
Two pieces of aluminum angle iron would work.
What about dis-similar metal corrosion? Any concerns?
How about the horizontal boring mill? Hoping to see it running.
Dangerous move there on the bandsaw. So others don't make that same mistake, the upper blade guide should be lowered to within at least an 1/8" of the materiel being cut.
That’s what I was taught as well, even though I don’t always follow it rigidly either.
Bad habit when drilling the angle iron and holding onto to it. If that drill bit grabs, it will pull the angle iron out of his hand.
@@B5Blue1968 The parts were long enough not to be a problem for hand holding. It’s just one of the jobs where you need to know the limits of what’s safe or not.
Looked like the vice jaws prevented that on the angle irons. Not on the plate, though and I assume that’s what the original post was all about.
@@glennstasse5698 I was referring to his free hand cut on the aluminum plate with the Doall bandsaw.. On the other bandsaw with the vice, your hands don't come into play there. The vice is holding the piece being cut.
What is happening with the steam stoker engine?
What no Gussets the horror the horror
It looks like you intend to put the plate in with the short side on the bottom. Would it not be more stable to put it in with the long side on the bottom? The drawer looks long enough! Or am I missing something? Interesting project!
He said in the first video that the big transformer may get reused. It sat in the far side of the tray, I'd assume he'd want to put it back there if he chooses that route.
Is vibration a concern for this plate in the way it is going to me mounted? (Honest question, really don't know).
If it is, maybe additional brackets from outer foot to the top of the plate would help... Makes a solid triangle.
Very nice job!
I would have tapped the angle iron that the aluminum panel is screwed to. I always use ¼-20 for everything, I would find fine threads to be very odd here. I always use thread cutting fluid on everything I drill or tap. Ron W4BIN
When Woking on elections your should round out the edges for safety so if something happens you will not damage your hands in a small space. Electricity can heart or can kill you. A good design for safety is a good design for life and health. 😉
Metal shavings sounds clunky. I like the term “swarf “
Etymology 1
From Middle English *swarf, *swerf, from Old English ġeswearf, ġesweorf (“iron filings; rust”) and/or Old Norse svarf (“metallic dust”), both from Proto-Germanic *swarbą (“that which is rubbed off; shavings”), from Proto-Germanic *swerbaną (“to mop, wipe; to rub off”)
l would round off the sharp corners, knowing me, l would injure myself on one of them
Is it Mo narch or Mon arch ? lol
The second.
Why is there so much electronics going on?
It's just 1 electric motor? M
It’s explained in the previous video - he wants variable speed and good torque at low speeds out of the dc motor. The old electronic control in the lathe used vacuum tubes and the circuitry is kaput.
@@TupperWallace and it's a non standard DC motor by today's standards.
Long time viewer. I enjoy all your stuff but I have to say I cringe every time I see you use your Marvel saw and put your arm across the travel of the blade. Yikes 😳
I love your videos but you have to do something about constantly peeking and breathing into the mic. It literally sounds like a thunder storm.
Thanks for sharing 👍