Debate: Pakistan’s Future is Doomed as Long as its Politics Remains Wedded with Religion
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 มิ.ย. 2024
- Pakistan was created with a vision to be both a nation inspired by faith and a modern democratic state, guided by public will. This blend of faith and politics has led to diverse perspectives. Some argue that mixing religion with politics can be exploited for personal gains, while others believe that a religious framework provides essential guidance for political decisions. To explore these viewpoints, we present a critical debate.
● This debate is held in collaboration with Raaye Saazi - an initiative that aims to hold critical social, legislative and cultural debates within public settings.
● Proposition
Is Pakistan's future at risk due to the influence of religion on politics? The proposition will argue in favor of keeping religion and politics separate.
» Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy
» Amber Rahim Shamsi
» Waqqas Mir
● Opposition
Can politics without a religious framework lack direction and meaning? The opposition will argue in support of using religion as a guide for political decisions.
» Qibla Ayaz
» Aneeq Ahmed
» Fahad Ali Kazmi
'With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.'
There was zero logic from religious side. All I heard was a shouting match & emotional rhetoric from all three of them !!
Right
If Singapore is a prosperous country why Pakistan is a failed state.
Ridiculous.
They came to conquer Black Hole and settle scores with Hoodbhoy.
Cleric’s team was miserable.
No one uttered a word for atrocities on non Muslim minority like Hindu, Sikhs, Catholics of Pak😂
To Respected Mr. Parvez - Hindu religion is himself secular. It is our culture. It is your wrong concept that Mr. Modi would give a lot of disturbance in Muslim peoples. IT is your 'pakistani thinking' logic. Sachin Kulkarni - Kalyan Maharashtra India
He knows it. He just uses Hindu Rashtra as an immunity to save himself from the opposition as we all know that he will never talk openly about the truth or his life is under threat.
Where is 23% Hiindus in 1947 and. 3% now in Pakiistan.
Pakistani ko debate karte dekh kar lagta hai ki ye alag he duniya ke log hain. Inke saath rahna pade to dum he ghut jayega. Ye hamesha Islam Islam karte hain aur islamic desh me rahna nahin chahte. Jahan jate hain fir vahan Islam nafiz karna chahte hain
As a Indian Christian
I have a simple question for Muslim in Pakistan and India.. if hindurashtra is bad for India and Indian minorities ... How is islamic nation of Pakistan a holy place..
And to Hindu.. if we see the disaster today Pakistan is.. how do you believe a theological country in name of religion a good thing in India
Dr. Hoodbhoy is great 👍 but Amber surprised me with her intelligence, arguments and logic and their third fellow speaker was brilliant whereas opposition was just shouting.
🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳 that supreme court lawyer spoke well👍
Indians are thankful to Jinnah. At least that population is not a problem of India any more and it can focus on science,technology and business while Pakistanis fight over religion and sects
What have you done to sikhs/ hindus/ Christians in NApakistan is known to the world... so do not portray urself as " holier than thou"
It looks like they want to give lectures on Islam instead of debating on the Point😂
A maulavi in a western attire what a joke! Hearing his sermons was mind blowing. Pakistan needs more of such kind of minds to take it more to the medieval times for that matter 1400 years back.😮
Ridiculous arguments from religious side. If you can't practice islamic doctrine (even if it is ideal), you need rigorous reforms.
Bhaghwan RAM accha hua yeh log humse alag ho gaye... nahi tau kayamat aa jati bharat mein
No hope for Pak
I am an Indian expat who is a Pakistani well wisher but I can firmly say that the likes of Hoodboy are fighting a losing battle. Pakistani has not future - sorry sad
“ If a Religion wants you to give up your freedom, just give up that religion
Nothing is holier than your freedom!”
-Mehmat Murat Ildan
Hood bhai is winner❤. Very Sad on Aneek Ahmed.
The major difference you will first notice is religious side were mostly shouting
brilliant arguments from amber, Hoodbhoy and their third fellow speaker. while sheer form of rhetoric, emotional speeches and last but not the least circular reasoning from opposing speakers. Long live Rationality
Ironically the guys who are for Islam is wearing western dresses .. double standards are in great heights..and criticise west.. naukri aur paisa ke liye West chaiye..besharam log aur soch hain..
The debate could have been even better if Dr Taimur Rehman had been on the proposition panel. Still, millions of salute to Dr Hoodhboy for his true jihad against ignorance and illiterate religious fanatics.
Well done Dr hodboy, anmber and Waqas sb
Pervez Hoodbhai was the best.
Aneeq Ahmed was the worst.
Pervez presented his case all encompassing though succinctly with a structure married with well reasoned logic maintaining his arguments in a natural flow. His rebuttal too was robust and convincing.
Aneeq Ahmed is a DIY so-called religious scholar. When he was speaking it seemed as though some least educated moulvi was giving a sermon at a local village mosque. Lacking substance and rebuttal to Pervez's arguments, Aneeq intermittently recited Arabic Ayat instead of giving its Urdu translation for the understanding of the general audience. This is called a typical village moulvi.
Sarmad Ali and Fahd Kazmi appeared to be well trained and experienced debaters though Fahd Kazmi sounded a Paindo with his punjabised accent of Ardo (Urdu).
After Pervez Hoodbhai, Waqas Mir was the one who impressed the audience.
خزباتی ہو کر اونچی اواز میں آپکا موقف درست نہی ہو جاتا
I have heard the whole discussion and have opened this again to put my comments. Mr Hood beoy has made a mistake by participating in this discussion. I do not agree with his view of BJP, however Pakistan is not a country matured enough to listen to his such matured views & are to live in the state they are.
BJP IS A POLITICAL PARTY & ALL POLITICAL PARTIES ARE PRONE TO CRTICISM & ALSO ACCEPTANCE
❤until and unless You will not give the freedoms to your female you will not become successful state
حضرت خدیجہ کے بزنس کی مثال دی گئ اسلامی حوالے سے ۔حالانکہ وہ تو اسوقت مسلمان ہی نہیں تھیں۔
Minorities ko tau maar dala... abe tu kya minorities rights ke baare mein bol raha hey...
Pakistan was created on the basis of Religion but was divided in to two nations despite following Islam, Islam is also divided in to many different institutions who fight with each other to finish each other ..many innocent lives have been lost at different places...
Second speaker quoting Quran again and again in a professional debate that Islam should be implemented in an Islamic Republic country wearing Israel's colored Shirt and Tie (White and Blue) and with mustache without beard and without head cover.
Completely wrong. Muslims in India are doing much better than not only Hindus and Minorities in Pakistan but also Muslims in Pakistan. How many Minoriry Presidents has Pakistan had? None. How many Hindus,Christians in your cricket team? None. And if Majority Muslim Pakistan can be Islamic Republic of Pakistan why should you object to majority Hindu India to be a Hindu country. Pakistan is poor because of fanatic Islam.
Week arguments by Aneek Ahmed
45:16 we all know how much muslim respect it's minorities. And how much islamic Republic like Pakistan protect the non Muslims.
as a Muslim.. you feel bad when a person burn Qur'an but few months ago a hindu temple was demolished in Karachi Pakistan and a building complex is being made there.. hundreds of Christian home were destroyed ... I have seen Muslim in this comment section justify it why do you need temples in Pakistan..
In 2014 the organization, the All Pakistan Hindu Rights Movement (PHRM), published a survey report. The survey report found that 95% of the temples present in Pakistan since 1990 were destroyed or damaged. Out of the 428 places of worship, only 20 remained operational while 408 temples were converted either into commercial properties or into residential establishments. Out of the 20 temples, 11 were in Sindh, 4 in Punjab, 3 in Balochistan and 2 in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.
Babri Masjid demolition in India only hastened the pace of temple demolition across Pakistan and Bangladesh. Around 1,000 temples were alone targeted or destroyed in Pakistan and 2014 PHRM survey findings continue to reflect in 2021 as well. From 20 operational temples in 2014, Pakistan now only has 13 temples managed by ETPB.
we all know the love what you give non Muslim specially Christian.. . In 1947 Muslims threatened Christians that Pakistan was made for Muslims only and that if Christians wanted to stay there, they had to live a life of servitude and perform sanitation work.. "Sewer Cleaners Wanted in Pakistan: Only Christians Need Apply." Remember this add by pakistani army in 2020. Guess nothing much change here..
well it's hilarious when we see muslim pointing out isreal about the killing and Palestine or even Rohingaya or kashmir .. While the same won't say a word about the virtual annihilation by killing forced migration of non Muslim community in islamic country.. Where the native population is refused to below 5% in some places below 1% like afghanistan Pakistan Indonesia even all meddle east
Have you ever asked why are the population of 31 islamic majority country have 95% + muslim population.. 39 have 88% +
Why is it that it is impossible for non Muslim to live in these islamic country.. The Persian left for india..
The Afghanistan lost it Buddhist monastery
But how many islamic country condemn the virtual inhalation of sikh from afghanistan who were 6 mn in '71 .. And less than 100 left today.. Or the forced conversion and marriage of hindu and Christian under age girls in Pakistan.. The inhalation of Ahemidia in Pakistan Indonesia and kurdistani mens and thier girls turkey syria Iraq Iran.
even with your pride of allhamdulillah there are no non Muslim tribe in Somalia or 97% of Pakistan or More than half the countries in the Middle East-North Africa region have populations that are approximately 95% Muslim or greater. These include Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, Morocco, Palestinian territories, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, Western Sahara and Yemen.
Kurds have had a long history of discrimination perpetrated against them by the Turkish government. Massacres have periodically occurred against the Kurds since the establishment of the Republic of Turkey in 1923.
I'm sorry I still have not heard a single word of condemnation from any muslim..
Just look at only islamic State in India.. Where are the natives
The reality is you expect isreal and India and the world to be secularist but you justified a killing because the alleged disrespect of quran in your own Bangladesh. And Pakistan and France
While in India Christian we are among the richest religious demographic only second to sikh.. Earning 2 times the national average and have 2 highest education percentage.. Only second to jains..
Guess I am blessed to be born in India not the other side of the borderline
Ye vo log hai jo Mughal Turk Arab k invaders ko apna Hero mante Hain 🙏😡
Pervaiz Hoodbhoy ZindaBaad ❤👍. State must act like a state, free of any religious idealogy. Justice with everyone. No one above the Law.
Mr Fahad , what is your opinion about the percentage of Minorities decreased from 1947 to 2024 in Pakistan .There is superiority complex
The tragic stories of India's partition-marked by forced migration and mass killings-always bring deep pain and a lesson: never succumb to the religious rhetoric promoted by the local stooges of imperialist Britain, such as Jinnah, etc.
Salute to hodboy❤
There was zero rationality and reason on religious side. They said beautiful story of islam but not talk about geo-fencing evidence They talked about 1400 years ago when there was no sectarianism today islam is much different then before. Religious countries totally fail for instance Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran on the other hand saudi, dubai are reforming their self.
A religious state has several disadvantages, including:
1. Potential for discrimination:
2. Limitations on individual freedoms:
3. Enforcement of religious orthodoxy:
4. Potential for extremism:
5. Restrictions on scientific inquiry:
6. Inequality and bias:
7. Conflict with modern values:
8. Potential for theocracy:
9. Limitations on social progress:
10. Potential for religious violence:
On the other hand A secular state has several advantages, including:
1. Separation of religion and state:
2. Protection of individual rights:
3. Promotes scientific inquiry:
4. Fosters inclusivity:
5. Reduces religious conflicts:
6. Encourages pluralism:
7. Ensures equal access to education and opportunities:
8. Enhances international relations:
9. Supports critical thinking:
10. Protects minority rights:
Pre-Islamic Afghanistan was a Buddhist country that was open and free for all. Pre-Islamic Iran was a Zoroastrian Persia that never persecuted any minorities. Same with Pre-Islamic Indian sub-continent. There is no Pre-Buddhist Arabia or Pre-Hindu Middle East.
In modern muslims scholars ka ghussa aur jazbati speeches sa sabit hota ha kah. Packing new hai but Masala wahee purana hai.
Wahee non muslims sa nafrat. Wahee aurat ko haqeer samjhna. Wahee insani azadi ki mukhalfat
Hats off to Prof Hudbhoy! Difficult debate to organize in Pakistan.
اگر ایک استاد کے شاگرد فیل ہو رہے ہوں ۔اسمیں قصور طالب علموں کا نہیں ہوتا۔استاد پر سوالیہ نشان ہوتا ہے
All religions divide us Humanity will ultimately unite us
What about capturing of Cathedral of Saint Sophia and converting into mosque?
Haha. The verbal fart from the religious side was without any logic
When Dr. Hoodbhoy spoke passionately at the end, he shattered all the trickery and debate strategies of the opposition. This is a really good new initiative by The Black Hole team. Much appreciated.
Pak is getting progressive, albeit slowly. Win for proposition is a slight hope for sure. Aneeek Ahmed was a huge disappointment, super illogical !
"WE still haven’t figured out exactly who Mohammad Ali Jinnah - Quaid-i-Azam - is or was, even in 2024. Westernised liberal secular, or champion of religious freedom for Muslims? Brilliant statesman or failed politician who played the religion card?"
The loudness of muslim clerics shows that they don't have valid aguments. The lady is really brave. great initiation by black hole to initiate such discussion. would have been great debate if shehzad(TPE) is invited.
Open discussions should be held on tv and universities. Black Hole in Islamabad is a great place.
I wish doctor sahib lives forever with us
Jinah was the person who introduce Religiouse in the Politics. Today History proved British used Jinah and muslims as a colonial state
Dr Hoodbhoy & Amber have given sound arguments. Other speakers with closed mindset have proved a failure.
No doubt Pakistan is a failed state.
Hindu rashtra jindabaad 🎉
Brilliant from Pervaz Hoodbhoy.
No hope for Pakistan
Very thought provoking debate.
It was a wonderful and eye-opener debate. Kudos to your team.
Good arguments from Left
Good debate! More of such good debates should take place. Thank you for posting. Just that, everyone needs to calm down and no personal attacks.
Fantastic debate
We need 10 million Hoodbhoys and 10 million less Raja Qaisers and Tarik Jamil’s.
If we are ever to get a civilized society.
IT IS SIMPLE SCIENCE THAT PAKISTAN'S NAME SHOULD BE THE SEMI-ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN THIS WILL ACCEPT ALL OUR DRMAS ACCORDING TO ISLAM.
although the guest speakers lack factual knowledge but very nice initiative and hope it will continue without any foreign intervention. ❤❤❤
It is logic versus rhetoric! No debate at all!
جب تک ہم مجرم کو مجرم نہیں کہینگے تب تک کچھ نہیں ہوگا
2nd part?
Dr. Hoodbhoy was so unapologetically forceful here! Absolutely loved the fearlessness of him and also journalist Ambar. It’s time to demand that each individual have equal rights regardless of what is in 1400 year old rules. No apologies!
ریاست میں مذاھب کی کوئ جگہ نہی ہوتی۔
22:51 This radical guy scared me. Has he any Bank Account ?
kindly can someone name the people who negate the question ??
13:43 Dear audience, why you came here. Go and operate your mobile at home.
The debate was not supposed to be about Islam...
It was about religion
And it's possible enforcement by rule
What a great debate! You guys must proceed such debate sessions which is similar to Oxford union debate.
یہ ملک ہی اسلامی ٹچ کی بنیاد پر حاصل کیا گیا تھا ورنہ سیاست تو برصغیر میں بھی ہوسکتی تھی
Dr. Sahab 👍
You should not be afraid of someone who has a library and reads many books; you should fear someone who has only one book; and he considers it sacred, but he has never read it
یہ لوگ جو گلے پھاڑ پھاڑ کر اسلام کے سیاسی کردار پر زور دے رہے تھے۔ یہ بتا دیں اسلام کا سیاسی نظام ہے کیا؟؟ اسلام نےکوئی سیاسی معاشی یا عدالتی نظام نہیں دیا۔
Best speech by Ambar Shamshi. Fully agree, support and apprecaite all her points.
Prof.Hoodbhoy u are well
respected among a Rational
Pakistani.
However ur last comment that if BJP ever comes to
power then condition of
Muslims and.christians,may
become miserable.
This statement seems to be
too narrow and unrealistic given the roots and ethos of
Hinduism. This religion is full
of kindness and unity of mankind.Herein killing of ants
and serpants treated as sin.
On Nagpanchmi festival serpants offered Milk.
Even rats are worshipped.
All animals and even trees are worshipped.
This kindness element to
large extent embaded in genes and allowed success of Foreign Invaders.
With Regards.
HINDU RASTRA NEVER MEANS THAT ALL THE NON HINDUS SHOULD LEAVE THERE RELIGON AND BECOME PRACTICING HINDUS.
Hindu Rastra means that every Indian irrespective of his religion should believe that he belongs to Indian land and he is an Indian first and his/her religion come only after that.
This concept is missing among many Indian Muslims who feel that they have an Arab or Turkish ancestry although the fact is that they are all Hindu converts.
Most educated Pakistani Muslims know the main reasons of Pakistan detoritaing situations but no one has guts to bell the cat because they will become top soil .
Changes in positive direction as seen in forum is full 🎉
Molvi tasveer k khlaf hi na tha bul k loud speakar k khlaf be tha mgr aaj speakar ka sub se ziyada istemal molvi krta hai.
I agree with Dr Pervaiz Hoodbahi,
انیق احمد فرق بتا دینا تھا ںا کہ دین اور مذھب میں کیا فرق ہے۔ تم تو دین اور مذھب کے معنی تک نہی جاتے۔
Wow 🎉! Nice dialogue… really appreciate Parvez Hoodhboy… however, I don’t agree with secularism or anti-secularism… there are both France (secular) and Israel (religious) states who are prospering… these are the education and rule of law that will prosper Pakistan or any other country
Ye Chand log bacha nahi payenge Pakistan ko. 😂
98% majority me minority rights what a joker
پاکستان میں زیادہ تر چریے ہیں، رہنا دنیا میں ہے اور باتیں آسمانوں پریوں کی کرنی ہیں
I really liked this discussion ❤❤❤
It was looking like a high school debate.
But
The initiative is good.
Keep making improvements.
Why are the religious lot screaming?!
Very ❤❤
Dr sahab I have been listening to you since long which is a testament in itself how much I enjoy your lectures. I wonder if you remember in one of your debate in replying to a question about the rise of hindutva in India and the future political scene in India in this context you said India will, it seems, rise above it or words to that effect and this election result has proved it. All those so called political analysts in the country claiming being experts failed but you didn't. You have a learned man insight. I am sure one day an enlightened Pakistan will remember you for your contributions towards this achievement as being the one who took the first step in that direction all alone with masses shouting against him all the way. Please keep up the good work I wish the very best 🙏 🙏🙏.
Good discussion by Dr sb , amber, lawyer, and the last speaker
Zabardast debate❤❤