no one is denying that hes a great player but ppl put him like there is no one else in the world and then he chokes when it matter the most, even tho they created 3 or whatever super teams around him to win, its mostly cuz of fans they talk like that
That's the bar set by faker and because people can't differentiate between the goat and the measuring stick for greatness, they just use the goat as a measuring stick even though literally nobody will live up to that
He's one of the best for sure. Its when he gets mentioned with Faker that the hate flows. IMO he is the best mechanically but too selfish, he will never sack a wave to get his team back in the game. Just watch the T1 GenG series at Worlds, dude is perma on the side ahead while his team gets run over. Then watch Faker in Game 4 of the finals, Faker sacks waves to create big plays to enable his team to get back into the game.
This is the point that Chovy glazers always miss out on. They forget that to be the best you have to impact the entire game, not just your lane. How can you be the best and you can't clutch? How can you become useless the second your teammates stop feeding you kills. And even if he started winning domestically for a few years, compared that to someone who has dominated all series for many years?
The hate started when he got that 100+ kda in 2019 and the faker stans started to hate on him since he was solo killing/stomping/outlaning everyone including faker(there even is a compilation in youtube) so yea 🤷♂️
It goes both ways. A lot of people glaze Chovy simply because they’re tired of Faker. But I admit that some T1 fans are over the top. Look at how they treated Zues. It is what it is.
I disagree. Chovy is glazed for good reason. Besides faker, the only mid that is arguably better than him is knight and if anything, knight is the one not getting enough glazing
I'm not sure if it's controversial, but it's similar to all the great players. The standard of becoming "a great player" gets higher the more they achieve. So, for Chovy's bar to go deeper is already a statement that he is a great player. It's inevitable to compare the 2 players because they're in the same region and they play the same lane. However, their achievements and how long it took after they debute to achieve it are completely different. If I was to base it off that, I don't think there's any pro league players that can compare to Faker right now, but maybe later someone will. Don't get it twisted, I'm a fan of both players and other players as well. This is my opinion as a fan looking at both sides of the coin.
I think if worlds wins is the metric by how you determine a player to be good or not, then I don't care about your opinions on players anymore. I don't care if Chovy never wins worlds, I've already seen enough to tell me that he is one of the best players to ever play this game.
Feels like a curse of a great player. Scrutinised under a microscope. Faker had so many doubters refusing to give him the credit he deserved when he was the undisputed best. At least he is celebrated now and hopefully that is how it ends for chovy aswell.
Bro, the point now on chovy is why he can't play worlds like he play LCK, because when he had a bad team his performance was very good but now that he has a very good team his performance is well below what he is capable of
yes and no. He is a good player but not winning worlds will hurt his legacy. U need to win the most important trophy to be considerd an all time great.
In my opinion it's not just his titles that people expected from but also his capabilities, he has great hands but he only does so much with what he can, not what he can do better. That's why he's always compared to Faker, book smart genius can only do so much when you have to take actual risks and needs real guts.
The bar is faker and he'll never reach it. I think it's you who wants faker to Be surpassed and you project your anger because you know it will never happen.
If Faker didnt exist Chovy would be among the echelons of Uzi where, even if he didnt win worlds, he would still be considered one of the greatest players of all time. Its just unfortunate that he just so happens to play the same role as the GOAT
Same role, same era (assuming league survives for another few decades), same league/region. Will forever be compared and regarded as a lesser player, unfortunately
I hate how every conversation in the esports scene has to be prefaced with "Faker is the GOAT". Like of course he's the GOAT, he's simply the best player to have ever played this game. Why can't we just acknowledge other players' greatness without admonishing others. Plenty of amazing mids out there like Rookie, BDD, Chovy, Zeka, knight that were genuinely so exciting to watch all year and brought different things to the table.
Everyone you mentioned are fun to watch but someone needs to continue the greatest legacy after faker retires. And it seems chovy is next to take the burden. Even faker had his fare shares of criticism in his career.
There is trust to the fact that Chovy has been worse in any international elimination series. Even this MSI that he won, he was prettt invisible in grand finals (only elimination series) and a monster elsewhere. At worlds he was the best player in Swiss but immediately whatever in elimination matches. Same problem he had in 2023/2022
Chovy is a great laner with great mechanics but he lacks completely in the mentality department. He cleans up fights and doesnt die when the team loses so everyone says he never underperforms, and if he does everyone says it was "just an off game" "Chovy isnt playing like Chovy" (even though he is). His impact is in individual CS and Gold leads but when things get tough he isnt willing to sacrifice that to effect the players around him. His Ahri game against T1 at worlds this year, he doesnt die until the very end on the fountain but he spends the entire game farming and being late or not showing to objectives. His TPs were selfish and he doesnt impact a fight until the game is already lost and all he does is kill a 1hp support with his ult. He needs to put those mechanics to work in other fields.
Who even says Chovy is not great? Chovy's name is synonymous with great at this point. I see it everywhere his name is mentioned. Hell, even the most obnoxious T1 fans will call him great. Its beyond arguable at this point that he is one of a kind. The greatest Choker league esports has ever seen.
That's how it works. Go to any sport. It's always like that. It's a sign that he is actually getting closer and closer to his destined greatness. Just think of it as something like taking his legacy one step at a time, but the hater version of it.
I think this is slightly disingenuous, but I understand. All of those things are true, if presented in contrast either Faker. Which you cannot do for any player. Everyone else resume for the rest of time will be dwarfed by his. But chovy is already an indisputable top 10 all time player, and the only midlaners that are ahead of him in my eyes are rookie and Faker. All time talent, that young man.
The thing is that both sides are cringe. Chovy fans will try to make it seem like he’s the best player ever because of how good he playing and there’s no competition. While Chovy haters will not acknowledge that he’s insanely good at the moment and try to excuse it with something.
This is a debate in every sport, there are always gonna be players who are undeniably great but don’t have the resume to match their talent. Unfortunately like Marino and Barkley before him, Chovy’s legacy win be shaded by not winning worlds. It shouldn’t be a determining factor, but it will be. Fans are narrative driven, and when the player whose supposed to be great doesn’t win the big trophy, it colors our perception.
@wakkawakkagaming3710 only casual fans. Any fan with even a couple of brain cells can see his greatness. The real sad part is how new fans will look back and see the awards every year and make their judgment of who was good and bad based on that.
I mean, you have to take the steps to be geat. It's not moving the bar. It's the steps to climb to get to the top. He completed the first few steps, but it needs to continue to join the greats.
I mean I think the problem with Chovy atleast for me has always been when it’s all on the line and a play needs to be made he’s just not the one to go for it.
Since the first time Chovy played at worlds, the overall argument was that he severely underperforms. 4 lck titles and 1 MSI later, Chovy still has that major issue, he has practically adopted the Dade award. Now most of the critique and sentiment is unfair, but it is true that his worlds performance leaves much to be desired, and he needs to prove that he can overcome it
@ That is a crazy take. LeBron's game is much more linear, focused on using his athleticism to drive to the rim and either dish or finish. Jordan had much better handles, off ball movement, and a mid range game. Like, I'm not trying to use the James Harden argument and act like skills is more important than winning, but Jordan won more as well.
I like Chovy but let's not pretend that he doesnt choke when it matters. I've watch him grow for the last 7 years in the LCK and he has proven that he has the mechanics to be the best mid laner in the world for years but ultimately if he doesnt show up then he will never be consider seriously in the conversation of being the best mid.
In 2024 Chovy won the more competitive tournament. Since they refuse to fix the worlds format, MSI has been a harder tournament, but people aren’t ready for that conversation
How was MSI the more competitive tournament?? World's had almost all the same teams plus 2 extra LPL and LCK teams to compete. Also MSI is not a harder tournament since it's a double elimination bracket which means teams get a second chance if they have a bad day or have a bad match up with another team.
Tired as hell with people telling double ellim is a harder comp. You guys just wanna say this shit because just to be different. The fact that you can’t have an off day in worlds but you can in MSI tells me that worlds is harder to win. In worlds, everyday should be your best day.
I think that the argument is simply flawed, just because the winner will be the "most strongest team in the world with more accuracy" doesn't mean it's the harder tournament. In worlds, the pressure of going back home after a single bo5 match should be considered, the fact that worlds is the brightest stage should be considered and many many more.
@@Lalaaw The off day argument can easily be made both ways. For example, it's easier to win worlds because if the best teams have an off day they're out. The term upset or fluke might ring a bell. But difficulty isn't even the main argument for double elim. More top tier matches between the best teams and a better finals product is generally the main arugment. Any actual fan of league should want double elim, if not solely for the fact they can expect more matches like T1 vs BLG. So you're telling me you don't want to watch more matches like T1 vs BLG?
No one is denying chovys greatness, problem is, people overhype him and put him often on the same level as faker while he (and no one else) isn't even anywhere close, faker is in his own league when it comes to titles. Like he did less then caps, or quite a few others, now you can argue about the competitiveness of lck and go on and on
We all know Chovy is an incredible player but the facts are that he hasn't performed at worlds and he always has strong teammates with him. (If Chovy has ever had a bad team please lmk 😅)
There was an interesting thing that they talked about on Powerspike which was that it almost doesn't matter how the rest of the year goes, if a team chokes at Worlds, they suck. An entire year's worth if performances is completely forgotten and the team is judged only on a single tournament on a single patch.
@@apassinghobothat's not interesting that's common fucking sense. SoloQ isn't scrims, scrims isn't regular season, regular season isn't playoffs, playoffs isn't msi, and msi isn't worlds. These competitions have inherent value, that's the whole point. Winning other things isn't completely meaningless, but it's undeniable that some things just mean more than others. Players, fans, organizers, sponsors, they all care more about worlds that's all there is to it.
The problem lies with people talking Chovy up too much, and calling him better than a "washed" faker (before he won worlds back to back). Now that Faker has more than proved himself, people are retaliating. The fact of the matter is hes not as great as Faker, and likely never will be. In terms of stats and mechanical skill, im sure theres an argument that Chovy is the better midlaner. But when speaking of greatness, the whole package is included. And Faker wins that hands down. Lets just treat Chovy as the incredibly skilled player he is, but not try to make him something he's not. It's a disservice to him, and leads to all this flaming.
I mean if you compare chovy with faker. Yes he has to do things that faker did. But if you want to say he is a good player and that's it then that's fine. But the error is when people try to say chovy is better than faker when is not even close. Faker is how you play league now a days, chovy hasn't changed League at all.
Chovy is the best laner ever no doubt about that. My only issue with him is the constant super teams built around him heck like geng wasnt stacked enough now you bring back Ruler? I can see why people would want him to fail when you are already the best midlaner in the world then you get the best jungler ever top 3 adc ever top 5 toplaner in the lck history? And if you look at his career he never tries for more than a year in one team except for geng which constantly bring him more and more support and then with all that you fail to win worlds and even worse getting destroyed by the teams you farm domestically?
@colin5197 Lol? Ofc T1 roster cost more now when they won 3 world championships in 4 years? The difference is T1 developed these players except for maybe Keria which is also arguable cuz he was really good but in T1 he became the best in the world. Secondly when did I ever say that Hle didnt build a superteam? But Hle does it for the first time as I cant consider Peanut and Doran on the same level as canyon Kiin but now with Zeus Yes it's a bit annoying.
@stefangeorgiev5418 won 3 worlds in 4 years? Are you sure about that? My point is that it's just kinda funny this so called super team isn't even in the top 2 for spending. Why would that be?
@@colin5197 its not about money its about names, faker cost more money then all of them together probably so thats already a bad argument, when it comes to hle they are also called super team so... they are considered the best korean players thats the reason behind super team
The thing is, he is that good he should have been challenging Faker's legacy but now its cooked. Of course if someone says he is not a great player its a straight up lie
Chovy can't coach new talent and mind control them into winning like Faker has throughout his career through different roles: carry, facilitator, shotcaller, tactician, etc. The energy Faker creates under pressure to be better on the map and in snap team fights is bar none. Chovy will always be a Faker shadow Dom, and league esports is dying anyways, so even if he does get equal worlds wins the impact won't be the same :/ Chovy plays like a selfish KDA player that cares more about CS and not making plays that make them look bad like a NA mid scared for his job: they are not even close to the same. Yes Chovy is number two mid in the world but he's tiers away from Faker still.
I mean yeah Faker is the reference, like people will eventually realize Chovy is great but if he wants to or his fans want to label him the greatest mid laner Faker is the standard he has to surpass that
Chovy isn’t a leader, faker is. Was actually scared for T1 cause Canyon is a leader. They did great domestically, but seems like not enough experience vs LPL teams. Plus T1 has chemistry with their team; leader, chemistry, and skill.
Why Chovy never win? - Besides winning multiple LCK splits and lastly winning an MSI, its a team game and not an individual one. Lol, simple as that, here you go. I answered it for you guys.
I mean its the difference of being the best atm and being the goat. But I will say that he really needs the worlds trophy tho, cus eventhough he keeps beating faker everywhere its just really hard to have him over faker when he doesnt deliver at the most important moment. Like in the end in league worlds is the trophy to win eventhough its just a momentary trophy with a brutal format, so faker winning them despite the rest of the year just makes the conversation so much harder.
The sad part for any midlaner or any pro league player is that it isn't the fans that are moving the goalpost, Faker is the goalpost and he is still moving forward for over a decade.
I just totally disagree with this take. The reasons the bar keeps changing is because Chovy is becoming a better player in the eyes of fans. At first expectations were lower, and now he’s one of the top mid laners in the world that are connected with faker. So if he’s one of the only people comparable to faker, people will want him to win worlds. Fans want another “chosen one” for once faker leaves. They hope the new laner will be chovy, and winning worlds is needed for that.
Funny is that the ones complaining about the Faker glazers are the ones glazing Chovy. Lol. No one is protecting "Fakers legacy" no one even gets close, Chovy will never get anywhere near. Faker at Chovys age now was a 3 time World Champion. Like... people use the word Goat too easily these days. The only thing Chovy is a goat of is CS. Its just how it is
i mean its more so his career has been a disappointment so far, for everyone saying hes the best player in the world currently to not be able to win a single worlds is pretty damning, these convos happen in every sport for lots of players and they are JUSTIFIED
Uzi never won worlds but he’s still considerd by many the goat adc worlds is a team accomplishment that’s weighed to much even if you win worlds that dosent necessarily mean you were the best team that year Chovy for like 5 years has been individually better than faker every split
@@Odel964 think the people with Uzi as the goat are in the minority now with names like Ruler and Deft in the mix. And it's difficult to compare Faker vs Chovy at this point because Chovy usually plays better as a mid-laner but Faker clearly has some sauce that Chovy doesn't as an overall player and teammate.
Nobody but Faker is the goat. This conversation is about current skill level. Chovy is undoubtedly amazing. Anyone who says otherwise is a clueless imbecile. If Zeus golden roads next year he still wont be the goat. Because the goat is faker. Someone will need to be early 2010s Faker level of dominant for years before they are eligible to contest faker.
I'm probably one of the few that think Zeus will be giga exposed at least his first year on HLE. He is a good player no doubt, but T1 set him up to shine so much. Zeka and Viper will never play the supportive role like Faker and Guma to help Zeus pop off. That said he'll still probably be 10x better than Doran.
LMAO that's for every player playing professional league of legends. Even faker who this guys says that everyone is protecting his legacy, face constant ridicule and impossible expectations on daily basis. It is not something exclusive to Chovy... my guy just need to keep playing and prove himself like everyone else. They most know it is a never ending of constantly proving their own legacy, that is why the majority of pro players retire early. Just very few endure that path one of them being faker and deft
insane that people will look at chovy dragging corpses of teams to worlds, dominating domestically, winning msi and tell you he isnt actually that good. The amount of value people put on one tournament, played on one patch, at the end of the year is ridiculous. by the same logic people think beryl is the goat support because he has 2 world championships (just ignore the fact that he was getting carried) the craziest part is that not a single sane person will disagree that faker is the goat.
@@ghibli5111 he played with the best topside in league history in a low resource suportive bot duo where his only job was to EQ on alistar sometimes and with a mid lanner going absolutely super saiyan for one tournament. Beryl could have been replaced by litterally any other engage support player and neither of those worlds runs change
@@evanlawrence6796 Worlds 2023 bot meta was his fault, do you guys even realize that. Also, you guys completely ignore how important he was for both DWG and DRX macro wise. DK fall since BeryL left, they always lacked macro without him.
« Dragging corpses team to worlds » Dude was playing with the Canyon, Ruler, Kiin, peanut, lehends, delight, keria (2020), Deft, Viper, Tarzan like he has actually played ONE year with hanwa when u could argue this, but every other year he was playing with top tiers players and super teams
Chovy’s a spectacular player, but it doesn’t take an Einstein to realize that in game 4 and 5’s, he’s built a very unhealthy habit of overfarming, over side-laning just to superscale till its too late, and it really hurt Gen G at worlds especially against T1 and even FLY. Still the best mid laner, just has some bad habits to break still, though I will say this season looks extremely promising for his preferred style.
Ya you're right. Chovy and GenG should stop playing the style they dominated all year with at worlds because it's not entertaining enough for the casual fan.
@ Who said anything about entertainment? You’re making a strawman argument to fit your narrative here firstly, and secondly, it doesn’t matter what happened the rest of the year because meta’s change and shift for each major patch, and gen g being taken to game 5 by flyquest of all teams was indicative of them not adapting to worlds properly. Their superfarm method worked because they abused tf out of ADC mid, ziggs in order to superscale to late game the rest of the year, and that was changed over a month before worlds. His insistence on power farming is a big reason those 1-2 most important games of the year absolutely failed gen g.
@Whales1992 a style that has dominated for 2 straight years suddenly isn't viable anymore because of the world's meta... Could you explain what changed then since they still went 3-0 in swiss facing top teams, not wild card teams. Also, you're just going to ignore the way "msi mvp" lehends played, huh? How convenient. And you talk about me trying to fit a narrative lmao. By all means, keep embarrassing yourself.
@@colin5197 It dominated last year? They lost worlds and MSI last year, and this year they did well in the first half, lost summer and worlds. You’re being nonsensical now. And this is a style that has persisted from Chovy since 2019/2020… Build all the super teams around him you want, it always fails in the semi-finals/finals against the other top teams, literally proven evidence.
@@colin5197 Also, it feels like you just didn’t watch worlds, the swiss stage at 3-0? Against 2 decent teams and 1 great teams? As if that’s the part that matters? Conveniently forgetting they were literally 1 teamfight away from being relegated by Flyquest in the first round of playoffs? Because their tactics didn’t adapt and they got read like a book by fly and t1? You’re speaking from anger at being proven wrong and being belittled because you’ve got no clue what in the world you’re talking about.
The goal post moves because mechanically Chovy has goat potential. If you’re as good mechanically as Faker then Faker’s just the goal post. It is what it is. I don’t agree with it but that’s just how things work. Show greatness and people will expect greatness
Faker himself said Chovy will win worlds. It happens to all who come after goats. Just look at lebrons career. Everything he has done is compared to mj. It's kinda sad.
Yeah literally until someone rivals faker in accomplishments, they won’t be considered to be at the same level as him. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
That's very unreasonable wdym... so unless you have 5 worlds titles you'll never be considered on his level even in the current moment? Get out of here
@@Mazzle94you should get out =)))) how can you be in the GOAT conversation against the GOAT if your trophy list is not even half of him. Take the same amount of time since Faker debut, he still stands higher than what Chovy accomplished. I dont think anyone says he is not a good midlaner, or a very talented one, just that when it matters the most, he failed.
@@KN-iu4sm no one is talking about him being the goat. We're talking about people being on fakers level. But i guess no one was on his level still even when he was shitting the bed on tristana mid for an entire split
Bruh, what are you on about? Isn't it obvious that you have to at least match his accomplisments to be in the conversation? Winning just one world championship isnt even enough from the start. The hell are you trying to say that the bar keeps on getting higher and higher? Very delusional take 😂
Hes good but difference maker isnt something he excells at. And thats what people like faker, doinb, rookie etc did. He farm a shit ton thats about it no hate. That doesn’t work in a long run like seen in worlds. Sadly worlds is the do or die stage.
Yea I really don't see a world where anyone other than Faker gets More than 3 worlds wins. Maybe the other members of ZOFGK might because they already have 2 so early but they could also never win again. Also not impossible that faker wins another world's just for the fun of it at this point
Not only can he not win worlds, the GenG super teams can barely squeak out of quarters. This year they almost go knocked out of quarters AGAIN and it was vs NA lol. GenG had just as much success at worlds with BDD as they ever have with Chovy.
chovy was nearly unmatched mechanically up until 2022, new talent has been popping up in zeka and other players (yagao but he‘s washed af) showed their prowess in the akali/sylas meta
I don’t think it’s the goalposts being moved necessarily. I think the main criticism is that he can’t win worlds, but when he was still struggling to win a domestic split yet why worlds that be a point of conversation?
I wonder if its not the case that people argue that chovy is not good, it is simply that for he is not the best player to touch the game and then comparisons come saying that chov is better than faker currently (which is true mechanically), which causes people to point out that he has gone to every worlds since being a pro in lck (not including 2018 cause it was not full year in the circuit), and he has only been in semi's twice when 1 of those was NA in quarters and the other being damwon which was worthy and losing to drx and t1 respectively 3:1 feeling like he and his team just collapsed in the moment. If the case is that he has the best top lane, support, adc and jg or even 3 out of the 4 best then he should be able to win and look good at worlds or even MSI. he has gone to MSI twice in 23, and 24 where in 23 he came 4th and t1 looked better and in 24 he won and looked good but compared to the number of times he has gone to internationals, it is lacking. its simply math. If he won once in 2020 or 2019 in his current form, then he would have been thought of immediately as one of the best (not that he isn't) but the fact is that he is batting 1 in 8 right now despite having been on pretty stacked rosters (minus HLE and possibly drx). if he cannot get it done on gen g with how well they recruit talent over the next 3 years of his contract, it really is questionable whether he will ever be one of the top 3 in fans mind. like right now for me im going faker (historically obvious), showmaker, caps/scout. if skewed to more weigh recency, then faker (recent form cannot push him out enough with some historical weighting), Knight, Chovy/Caps, Scout/Xaoihu Note: Caps brings more to his team than most which is why I put him relatively higher I hope chovy does well this year ima cheer for both faker and chovy and be neutrel on HLE (hate zeus move for loyalty reasons, like viper and peanut and delight so it cancels out)
I just want to make this clear: I personally do not like how people would justify their hate or dislike for a person due to their fans, it's just hypocritical, either side aren't really true fans but just haters. I think the reason why some people would even bring Chovy down is due to how high others put him up to be. You can acknowledge how great a person is and their own lows without having to disrespect them or other players in comparison. Some Chovy "fans" make him out to be the best player of all time, which of course, would spark some argument. It IS NOT arguable that he's a mechanically talented player, but to deny someone else's legacy with petty excuses such as "the game wasn't as developed at that time" is not only a disrespect to someone like Faker, but a lot of great players in history. Then the so-called "fans" proceed to shift all the blame towards his teammates, which I can understand to an extent but to act like Chovy doesn't have mistakes, just takes away from his own growth in his journey. I think it's only a matter of time before he wins worlds, but a lot of his "fans" act like he's just "unlucky" and as if he just recently arrived on the pro play scene, he debuted 7 years ago, although to be fair it's mostly new fans that say those lol. As an individual player, he's one of the, if not, the best player of this current time imo. Many people fail to realize that taking away someone's greatness, also does the same for the one they idolize (This also goes for T1 "fans"). I'm a huge fan of T1, but not acknowledging their competitors, just doesn't do justice for their own narrative, and the efforts of both them and others. I'm looking forward this year and I hope Chovy can live up to the hype as much as I want T1 and Faker's success. Pro play won't thrive without competition after all!
@unknown-q4b2r can you point out how chovy lost his team the series this year? Cause I can sure as hell point out how bad msi mvp lehends played. And don't even get me started on peyz. You say fans just blame his teammates... but wtf is he supposed to do? Play mid and support at the same time? Carry so hard that your inting support doesn't matter? Buy a death fire grasp and go around the map 1 shotting everyone with LB? This isn't 2013 anymore mate. The game has changed. The average player is much better.
@@colin5197 Nah I wouldn't even try to argue with whatever Lehends was on this year 😂, the guy just straight up trolls and ints. I never said that his teammates wouldn't be a subject of faults, I just wanted to point out that Chovy isn't perfect either, I meant no insult for that matter. My comment isn't directed towards the true Chovy / GenG fans but towards the so called "fans" (that's why it's in quotation marks) that's either here for the bandwagon or just hate. If this isn't obvious enough: I NEVER said Chovy is the main cause of him not winning worlds, I acknowledge his strengths, but he isn't as perfect as some "fans" make him out to be, and I personally think that's better, Chovy himself still knows he can improve, and I can't wait to see him coming back stronger. Hopefully I made my stand clear enough cause I honestly don't want an argument when I'm not even belittling Chovy in any way
@@colin5197he lost them the T1 series I’d say both him and lehends did that The only one has the burning will to fight back is Kiin Canyon is kinda mid Peyz is a rookie so we’ll let it slip Watch closely his ahri game it’s just so hard to watch he being late every fricking teamfights, skirmishs depsite being full spell always 2lv ahead with the most gold advantage on him is just so fricking dogshit perfomance
hes nowhere near the goat level, sure hes laning phase is superb,chovy strength is also his weakness. he doesnt have a clutch factor nor decisiveness as a player.
Chovy needs to win worlds or else he isn’t in the conversation of greatest midlanders of all time. Dom loves to downplay worlds especially for teams/players he likes and especially if they’ve won MSI. The thing is that every league player agrees that’s the grand prize. It’s also how it is in real sports. You can go 16-0 in the NFL (like Brady did) but if you don’t win the Super Bowl (like Brady did) you are not viewed as the greatest for that season. Had Brady had nothing but 16-0 seasons and no superbowls he would not be the greatest QB of all time, just the most disappointing. Chovy’s goal, just like it is every young Pro’s goal, is to win worlds. For himself, for his team, for his fans. Until he does that, he is in some way disappointing. You just can’t be the best player in the world on what has now been consistently the best team in the world (or one of 2) for a few seasons just to keep losing the one that matters most and that everyone brings their A game for.
@EatPlayNoSleep using football as an example was awful. There's no mid season super bowl LMAO And worlds gets heavily overvalued by fans for having such a weak format from a competitive standpoint. It's like the opposite of what every pro practices for all year lmao.
Yes, Worlds matters the most precisely because the format is especially hard to win, MSI even if it's a international tour it's still far easier overall. Where as Worlds many many players can barely have 1 cup or no cup at all in their lifetime let alone 5 like Faker, that's why it's so desireable and important. Regionals and MSIs can go, but the biggest tournaments of all where the biggest crowd gathers is the bread and butter
@@ohongphong9235 How is MSI "easier" than worlds? LMAO Did T1 have to beat BLG twice in a row at worlds? If it's so much easier, why didn't T1 win? Why haven't they won in the new format? Why haven't they won a sing double elim event EVER? If it's so much easier after all? Can you explain that?
@@colin5197 there is a reason why T1 mostly dominates Worlds, it's a long drawn out tournaments that gives teams time to adapt and train, and the patch mostly stays the same. MSI has less teams participates, less matches, and the time lasted only about 2 weeks or so. Plus with pretty much no windows to rest, T1 with chock full schedule will find it hard to have time to train, where as Worlds have more windows to rest and train between matches.
Dom, shut up. You're one of those, every year you say Korea can win against China, and when korea wins you always have a excuse saying you knew korea was going to win.
Call me crazy but Delight is the best supp player in the world and he has no international titles.... bc titles arent everything. We have eyes, we can see when theyre good. Putting players against each other is just childish-
It's simply because since 2021.2 Faker has been trying to get milk out of stone and make history by playing with SEVERAL NEWCOMERS while chovy had ruler, lehends, peanut, kiin, canyon etc, this should be the main point of the criticism.
@@colin5197 I'm not saying they aren't one of the best in their position today, but do you think it's normal that Chovy, who has been playing longer than Zeus, Oner and Guma, for example, can't perform consistently at international level like Zeus, Oner and Guma do, having 2 more years of career than the 3 "rookies" in T1?
@diegolemos9233 the whole can't perform "internationally" angle doesn't really hit ever since he smurfed at msi. The truth is, we have much higher expectations for chovy than other players. Imagine applying those same standards to msi mvp lehends. But we don't, because even if he runs it down all series, he's not supposed to be the best player in the world.
@@colin5197 Imagine faker didn't win Worlds, people will start saying he is washed, he should retire, etc.. The Expectations for faker is to keep winning worlds even though he has proved that he is relevant even after 10 years
@MightyBl4de it's only T1 fans who have those expectations of faker. Any fan with at least a few brain cells who watched lck summer didn't expect faker and t1 to win. These same fans wouldn't say he's washed and should retire if he lost game 5 to blg. Most people don't expect faker to still be winning worlds this far into his career. It's a testament to his longevity that he is. If his wrist is truly a problem that causes him a lot of pain, then he should retire, but if not, then he should play for as long as he wants. He's earned that much.
When people hype you up, you meet their expectations. Faker did. Showmaker did. Chovy did not. It is not even people protecting Faker's legacy, it is Chovy not living upto expectations
He lives up to them 90% of the year and then in worlds when he loses past 2 years haven't even been his fault. But it's a team game afterall. The worst player on the winning team is better than the best player on the losing team. That's the average lol fans logic.
@@colin5197Faker single handedly saved his team from losing in 2023 semis (Azir shuffle) and 2024 finals (game 4 and 5). Chovy has been unable to do so at worlds.
@@colin5197yeah most lol fans are hyper delulu unfortunately. It's a fact that not the best player wins but the worst player loses the game. Faker winning year after year is proof of this too, since he can't win domestically since 5? Years or so. He needs the special worlds patch tailored for T1 and the abysmal format that worlds have to have a chance at winning it...
Chovy literally had the meta favoring him MSI and he delivered. The meta did favor chovy at worlds and he did not deliver. when faker was called the best player, the expectation was bare minimum a world championship and he won it. chovy still has not delivered even after people hyping him up even with great rosters for the past three years at worlds. I too would like to see chovy win but he is the one who is not living up to the hype.
Welcome to every sports discourse ever
For sure
He just try to create another narrative to devalue faker like he use to
But LEBRON HAS MORE RINGS THAN JORDAN
@@bergenmatthewLeBron has more rings than Chovy.
@@Written... sadge poor chovy
Anyone denying Chovy's greatness at this point is either delusional or don't know anything.
Berg never won a worlds but they still call him a goat 😂
@@vagabond1845 Uzi didnt win worlds hes still a goat in his own way lil bro
no one is denying that hes a great player but ppl put him like there is no one else in the world and then he chokes when it matter the most, even tho they created 3 or whatever super teams around him to win, its mostly cuz of fans they talk like that
@@cryptoboy-yq7yn Every team that is in the top 4 of LCK is a super team? Same with LPL outside of AL this year
@@firstnamelastname754 that my point idk why people hating on him when worse players on paper are called goats
Chovy is just one of the players, who are so good, that everything is a dissapointment unless you win everything.
Similar to Messi or Ronaldo before they won an international.
You nailed it on the head!
Yeah and not just win everything, do it for yearssss, not just years. Otherwise he won't ever be in the conversation
@@jiunnji3267 and do it in a very dominant fashion.
That's the bar set by faker and because people can't differentiate between the goat and the measuring stick for greatness, they just use the goat as a measuring stick even though literally nobody will live up to that
He's one of the best for sure. Its when he gets mentioned with Faker that the hate flows. IMO he is the best mechanically but too selfish, he will never sack a wave to get his team back in the game. Just watch the T1 GenG series at Worlds, dude is perma on the side ahead while his team gets run over. Then watch Faker in Game 4 of the finals, Faker sacks waves to create big plays to enable his team to get back into the game.
This is the point that Chovy glazers always miss out on.
They forget that to be the best you have to impact the entire game, not just your lane. How can you be the best and you can't clutch?
How can you become useless the second your teammates stop feeding you kills.
And even if he started winning domestically for a few years, compared that to someone who has dominated all series for many years?
The hate started when he got that 100+ kda in 2019 and the faker stans started to hate on him since he was solo killing/stomping/outlaning everyone including faker(there even is a compilation in youtube) so yea 🤷♂️
@ he’s the KDA GOAT no doubt about that. If you could win worlds by not dying and pushing side waves he would be unstoppable.
He is just too much of a Solo Q player. Thats it
i cant hate him because the guy is actually a really good friend of faker and he genuinely respects faker as a rival
It goes both ways. A lot of people glaze Chovy simply because they’re tired of Faker.
But I admit that some T1 fans are over the top. Look at how they treated Zues.
It is what it is.
I disagree. Chovy is glazed for good reason. Besides faker, the only mid that is arguably better than him is knight and if anything, knight is the one not getting enough glazing
@@kfs_hellbourne7525knight is not even close to chovy wth are you smoking 😂 if anyone then Rookie...
@@GroundationOnly rookie has not made an international since 2022 what are you smoking xdd?
@@kfs_hellbourne7525 rookie surpassed faker in his prime.
@@GroundationOnlywho cares? We are living in the present.
I'm not sure if it's controversial, but it's similar to all the great players. The standard of becoming "a great player" gets higher the more they achieve. So, for Chovy's bar to go deeper is already a statement that he is a great player.
It's inevitable to compare the 2 players because they're in the same region and they play the same lane.
However, their achievements and how long it took after they debute to achieve it are completely different.
If I was to base it off that, I don't think there's any pro league players that can compare to Faker right now, but maybe later someone will.
Don't get it twisted, I'm a fan of both players and other players as well. This is my opinion as a fan looking at both sides of the coin.
Now don't get it twisted, I best Dopa AND Faker
I hate Chovy’s gameplay, doesn’t mean I can’t see that he’s probably gonna end up being no.2-3 in the GOAT convo with enough time.
When people stop comparing Chovy to Faker, is the day we can truly appreciate his achievements.
That's how it works with every Top tier player in every sport & esport.
I think if worlds wins is the metric by how you determine a player to be good or not, then I don't care about your opinions on players anymore. I don't care if Chovy never wins worlds, I've already seen enough to tell me that he is one of the best players to ever play this game.
Feels like a curse of a great player. Scrutinised under a microscope. Faker had so many doubters refusing to give him the credit he deserved when he was the undisputed best. At least he is celebrated now and hopefully that is how it ends for chovy aswell.
You're probably low elo as fuck though so what you've "seen" is irrelevant.
he is without a doubt one of the best players to play the game but for others say he surpassed faker is the hate comes in
Bro, the point now on chovy is why he can't play worlds like he play LCK, because when he had a bad team his performance was very good but now that he has a very good team his performance is well below what he is capable of
yes and no. He is a good player but not winning worlds will hurt his legacy. U need to win the most important trophy to be considerd an all time great.
In my opinion it's not just his titles that people expected from but also his capabilities, he has great hands but he only does so much with what he can, not what he can do better. That's why he's always compared to Faker, book smart genius can only do so much when you have to take actual risks and needs real guts.
I rather say he get dealt the best hand but he played like shit
Not even Faker, Zeka also at least steps up and has the guts to do it.
The bar is faker and he'll never reach it. I think it's you who wants faker to Be surpassed and you project your anger because you know it will never happen.
If Faker didnt exist Chovy would be among the echelons of Uzi where, even if he didnt win worlds, he would still be considered one of the greatest players of all time. Its just unfortunate that he just so happens to play the same role as the GOAT
Same role, same era (assuming league survives for another few decades), same league/region.
Will forever be compared and regarded as a lesser player, unfortunately
I hate how every conversation in the esports scene has to be prefaced with "Faker is the GOAT". Like of course he's the GOAT, he's simply the best player to have ever played this game.
Why can't we just acknowledge other players' greatness without admonishing others. Plenty of amazing mids out there like Rookie, BDD, Chovy, Zeka, knight that were genuinely so exciting to watch all year and brought different things to the table.
Everyone you mentioned are fun to watch but someone needs to continue the greatest legacy after faker retires. And it seems chovy is next to take the burden. Even faker had his fare shares of criticism in his career.
Bdd is mid
@drsjoane bdd's yone is absolute cinema
Bro said Bdd and Rookie lmao😂😂😂
Beating chovy right now is near impossible but beating choky is piece of cake😂
There is trust to the fact that Chovy has been worse in any international elimination series. Even this MSI that he won, he was prettt invisible in grand finals (only elimination series) and a monster elsewhere. At worlds he was the best player in Swiss but immediately whatever in elimination matches. Same problem he had in 2023/2022
Chovy is a great laner with great mechanics but he lacks completely in the mentality department. He cleans up fights and doesnt die when the team loses so everyone says he never underperforms, and if he does everyone says it was "just an off game" "Chovy isnt playing like Chovy" (even though he is). His impact is in individual CS and Gold leads but when things get tough he isnt willing to sacrifice that to effect the players around him. His Ahri game against T1 at worlds this year, he doesnt die until the very end on the fountain but he spends the entire game farming and being late or not showing to objectives. His TPs were selfish and he doesnt impact a fight until the game is already lost and all he does is kill a 1hp support with his ult. He needs to put those mechanics to work in other fields.
Who even says Chovy is not great? Chovy's name is synonymous with great at this point. I see it everywhere his name is mentioned. Hell, even the most obnoxious T1 fans will call him great. Its beyond arguable at this point that he is one of a kind. The greatest Choker league esports has ever seen.
People just don't understand that Faker beeing a demon does not deminish the results of anyone else.
It's not controversial at all to say chovy is a great player this is a lie
That's how it works. Go to any sport. It's always like that. It's a sign that he is actually getting closer and closer to his destined greatness. Just think of it as something like taking his legacy one step at a time, but the hater version of it.
I think this is slightly disingenuous, but I understand. All of those things are true, if presented in contrast either Faker. Which you cannot do for any player. Everyone else resume for the rest of time will be dwarfed by his. But chovy is already an indisputable top 10 all time player, and the only midlaners that are ahead of him in my eyes are rookie and Faker. All time talent, that young man.
As a T1 fan expectations for him are unrealistic. They somehow expect him to complete the golden road if not he’s bad
The thing is that both sides are cringe.
Chovy fans will try to make it seem like he’s the best player ever because of how good he playing and there’s no competition. While Chovy haters will not acknowledge that he’s insanely good at the moment and try to excuse it with something.
This is a debate in every sport, there are always gonna be players who are undeniably great but don’t have the resume to match their talent. Unfortunately like Marino and Barkley before him, Chovy’s legacy win be shaded by not winning worlds.
It shouldn’t be a determining factor, but it will be. Fans are narrative driven, and when the player whose supposed to be great doesn’t win the big trophy, it colors our perception.
@wakkawakkagaming3710 only casual fans.
Any fan with even a couple of brain cells can see his greatness.
The real sad part is how new fans will look back and see the awards every year and make their judgment of who was good and bad based on that.
Agree that he’s a great player
But my friend what legacy did he even have
@@colin5197nah still chovy cant win against young faker forever
@@destinytimer4304 This has nothing to do with my comment but keep crying. It's quite funny.
I mean, you have to take the steps to be geat. It's not moving the bar. It's the steps to climb to get to the top. He completed the first few steps, but it needs to continue to join the greats.
I mean I think the problem with Chovy atleast for me has always been when it’s all on the line and a play needs to be made he’s just not the one to go for it.
Result matters, every year since the Griffin days, people hype up Chovy just for him to fail, not even make it to final.
Since the first time Chovy played at worlds, the overall argument was that he severely underperforms. 4 lck titles and 1 MSI later, Chovy still has that major issue, he has practically adopted the Dade award. Now most of the critique and sentiment is unfair, but it is true that his worlds performance leaves much to be desired, and he needs to prove that he can overcome it
Bro getting the Lebron treatment
Without the accolades 😂
It's the reverse LeBron treatment. LeBron gets called the GOAT without the accolades, skills, and dominance that Jordan had.
@@jaketerpening3284LeBron has wayy more skills than Jordan lmao😂😂
@ That is a crazy take. LeBron's game is much more linear, focused on using his athleticism to drive to the rim and either dish or finish. Jordan had much better handles, off ball movement, and a mid range game. Like, I'm not trying to use the James Harden argument and act like skills is more important than winning, but Jordan won more as well.
Ppl love moving goalposts
I like Chovy but let's not pretend that he doesnt choke when it matters. I've watch him grow for the last 7 years in the LCK and he has proven that he has the mechanics to be the best mid laner in the world for years but ultimately if he doesnt show up then he will never be consider seriously in the conversation of being the best mid.
The Goal ALWAYS moves forwards
In 2024 Chovy won the more competitive tournament. Since they refuse to fix the worlds format, MSI has been a harder tournament, but people aren’t ready for that conversation
In paper maybe it is harder, but players who has been through worlds will just tell you how its different.
How was MSI the more competitive tournament?? World's had almost all the same teams plus 2 extra LPL and LCK teams to compete. Also MSI is not a harder tournament since it's a double elimination bracket which means teams get a second chance if they have a bad day or have a bad match up with another team.
Tired as hell with people telling double ellim is a harder comp. You guys just wanna say this shit because just to be different.
The fact that you can’t have an off day in worlds but you can in MSI tells me that worlds is harder to win. In worlds, everyday should be your best day.
I think that the argument is simply flawed, just because the winner will be the "most strongest team in the world with more accuracy" doesn't mean it's the harder tournament.
In worlds, the pressure of going back home after a single bo5 match should be considered, the fact that worlds is the brightest stage should be considered and many many more.
@@Lalaaw The off day argument can easily be made both ways. For example, it's easier to win worlds because if the best teams have an off day they're out.
The term upset or fluke might ring a bell.
But difficulty isn't even the main argument for double elim.
More top tier matches between the best teams and a better finals product is generally the main arugment.
Any actual fan of league should want double elim, if not solely for the fact they can expect more matches like T1 vs BLG.
So you're telling me you don't want to watch more matches like T1 vs BLG?
No one is denying chovys greatness, problem is, people overhype him and put him often on the same level as faker while he (and no one else) isn't even anywhere close, faker is in his own league when it comes to titles. Like he did less then caps, or quite a few others, now you can argue about the competitiveness of lck and go on and on
We all know Chovy is an incredible player but the facts are that he hasn't performed at worlds and he always has strong teammates with him. (If Chovy has ever had a bad team please lmk 😅)
HLE 2021 was DRAGGED to quarters by mostly Chovy and a little bit of Deft. Vsta and Willer were so insanely bad and Morgan was just chilling in top
There was an interesting thing that they talked about on Powerspike which was that it almost doesn't matter how the rest of the year goes, if a team chokes at Worlds, they suck. An entire year's worth if performances is completely forgotten and the team is judged only on a single tournament on a single patch.
But was it really chovy who didn't perform?
Back when Chovy was in HLE he was practically solo carrying the team
@@apassinghobothat's not interesting that's common fucking sense. SoloQ isn't scrims, scrims isn't regular season, regular season isn't playoffs, playoffs isn't msi, and msi isn't worlds. These competitions have inherent value, that's the whole point. Winning other things isn't completely meaningless, but it's undeniable that some things just mean more than others. Players, fans, organizers, sponsors, they all care more about worlds that's all there is to it.
The problem lies with people talking Chovy up too much, and calling him better than a "washed" faker (before he won worlds back to back).
Now that Faker has more than proved himself, people are retaliating.
The fact of the matter is hes not as great as Faker, and likely never will be.
In terms of stats and mechanical skill, im sure theres an argument that Chovy is the better midlaner. But when speaking of greatness, the whole package is included. And Faker wins that hands down.
Lets just treat Chovy as the incredibly skilled player he is, but not try to make him something he's not. It's a disservice to him, and leads to all this flaming.
I mean if you compare chovy with faker. Yes he has to do things that faker did. But if you want to say he is a good player and that's it then that's fine. But the error is when people try to say chovy is better than faker when is not even close. Faker is how you play league now a days, chovy hasn't changed League at all.
I mean yeah. Regardless of how good he is he’s never going to be faker because Faker’s legacy just can’t be replicated
What do you expect? Us faker fans already have 1 worlds, chovy needs at least 2 worlds
Chovy is the best laner ever no doubt about that. My only issue with him is the constant super teams built around him heck like geng wasnt stacked enough now you bring back Ruler? I can see why people would want him to fail when you are already the best midlaner in the world then you get the best jungler ever top 3 adc ever top 5 toplaner in the lck history? And if you look at his career he never tries for more than a year in one team except for geng which constantly bring him more and more support and then with all that you fail to win worlds and even worse getting destroyed by the teams you farm domestically?
@stefangeorgiev5418 did you know both T1 and HLE's rosters cost significantly more than GenGs "superteam"
@colin5197 Lol? Ofc T1 roster cost more now when they won 3 world championships in 4 years? The difference is T1 developed these players except for maybe Keria which is also arguable cuz he was really good but in T1 he became the best in the world. Secondly when did I ever say that Hle didnt build a superteam? But Hle does it for the first time as I cant consider Peanut and Doran on the same level as canyon Kiin but now with Zeus Yes it's a bit annoying.
@stefangeorgiev5418 won 3 worlds in 4 years? Are you sure about that?
My point is that it's just kinda funny this so called super team isn't even in the top 2 for spending. Why would that be?
@@colin5197 its not about money its about names, faker cost more money then all of them together probably so thats already a bad argument, when it comes to hle they are also called super team so... they are considered the best korean players thats the reason behind super team
@@colin5197because in that superteam some players tooks paycuts just to play in that superteam
The thing is, he is that good he should have been challenging Faker's legacy but now its cooked. Of course if someone says he is not a great player its a straight up lie
Chovy can't coach new talent and mind control them into winning like Faker has throughout his career through different roles: carry, facilitator, shotcaller, tactician, etc.
The energy Faker creates under pressure to be better on the map and in snap team fights is bar none.
Chovy will always be a Faker shadow Dom, and league esports is dying anyways, so even if he does get equal worlds wins the impact won't be the same :/
Chovy plays like a selfish KDA player that cares more about CS and not making plays that make them look bad like a NA mid scared for his job: they are not even close to the same.
Yes Chovy is number two mid in the world but he's tiers away from Faker still.
Like faker said if you think is your than prove it
I mean yeah Faker is the reference, like people will eventually realize Chovy is great but if he wants to or his fans want to label him the greatest mid laner Faker is the standard he has to surpass that
Chovy isn’t a leader, faker is. Was actually scared for T1 cause Canyon is a leader. They did great domestically, but seems like not enough experience vs LPL teams. Plus T1 has chemistry with their team; leader, chemistry, and skill.
Why Chovy never win?
- Besides winning multiple LCK splits and lastly winning an MSI, its a team game and not an individual one.
Lol, simple as that, here you go. I answered it for you guys.
I mean its the difference of being the best atm and being the goat. But I will say that he really needs the worlds trophy tho, cus eventhough he keeps beating faker everywhere its just really hard to have him over faker when he doesnt deliver at the most important moment.
Like in the end in league worlds is the trophy to win eventhough its just a momentary trophy with a brutal format, so faker winning them despite the rest of the year just makes the conversation so much harder.
If he does not win worlds, he will never be as respected as the winners, simple as that
Regarded
The sad part for any midlaner or any pro league player is that it isn't the fans that are moving the goalpost, Faker is the goalpost and he is still moving forward for over a decade.
I just totally disagree with this take. The reasons the bar keeps changing is because Chovy is becoming a better player in the eyes of fans. At first expectations were lower, and now he’s one of the top mid laners in the world that are connected with faker. So if he’s one of the only people comparable to faker, people will want him to win worlds. Fans want another “chosen one” for once faker leaves. They hope the new laner will be chovy, and winning worlds is needed for that.
Funny is that the ones complaining about the Faker glazers are the ones glazing Chovy. Lol. No one is protecting "Fakers legacy" no one even gets close, Chovy will never get anywhere near. Faker at Chovys age now was a 3 time World Champion. Like... people use the word Goat too easily these days. The only thing Chovy is a goat of is CS. Its just how it is
Chovy to faker was like messi to maradona, most of Argentinian still have maradona as their nation hero until messi won world cup, soo 🤔
The church is out
i mean its more so his career has been a disappointment so far, for everyone saying hes the best player in the world currently to not be able to win a single worlds is pretty damning, these convos happen in every sport for lots of players and they are JUSTIFIED
But, isn’t that the point for strive for greatness? It’s keep putting higher and higher standards in yourself.😂
Moving the goal posts is loved by all who live in their own world.
LeBron James effect to MJ. Mofos be hating on greatness. Both GOATs
He needs to win worlds to complete his legacy
But this game is so bad rn
And it's really competitive
Uzi never won worlds but he’s still considerd by many the goat adc worlds is a team accomplishment that’s weighed to much even if you win worlds that dosent necessarily mean you were the best team that year Chovy for like 5 years has been individually better than faker every split
@@Odel964 think the people with Uzi as the goat are in the minority now with names like Ruler and Deft in the mix.
And it's difficult to compare Faker vs Chovy at this point because Chovy usually plays better as a mid-laner but Faker clearly has some sauce that Chovy doesn't as an overall player and teammate.
@@CommanderHaircut Uzi will always be regarded as a goat by the OG league fans
@@Odel964I’m sorry but the likes of Ruler, Viper, and Guma will eclipse Uzi as the ADC GOAT.
@@Odel964Ruler,Guma,Viper>>>>Uzi
Is Chovy the LeBron of league?
If Zeus golden roads this year or next year isn't he the goat ?
@tintin5406 it would be a conversation for sure.
If he beats faker to win all those that wouldn't definitely help his case.
Nobody but Faker is the goat. This conversation is about current skill level. Chovy is undoubtedly amazing. Anyone who says otherwise is a clueless imbecile. If Zeus golden roads next year he still wont be the goat. Because the goat is faker. Someone will need to be early 2010s Faker level of dominant for years before they are eligible to contest faker.
I'm probably one of the few that think Zeus will be giga exposed at least his first year on HLE. He is a good player no doubt, but T1 set him up to shine so much. Zeka and Viper will never play the supportive role like Faker and Guma to help Zeus pop off. That said he'll still probably be 10x better than Doran.
@nufasniyamathulla6479 no this is an extremely common take among the T1 fans. Excluding the Doran being shit part.
nah
LMAO that's for every player playing professional league of legends. Even faker who this guys says that everyone is protecting his legacy, face constant ridicule and impossible expectations on daily basis. It is not something exclusive to Chovy... my guy just need to keep playing and prove himself like everyone else. They most know it is a never ending of constantly proving their own legacy, that is why the majority of pro players retire early. Just very few endure that path one of them being faker and deft
insane that people will look at chovy dragging corpses of teams to worlds, dominating domestically, winning msi and tell you he isnt actually that good. The amount of value people put on one tournament, played on one patch, at the end of the year is ridiculous. by the same logic people think beryl is the goat support because he has 2 world championships (just ignore the fact that he was getting carried)
the craziest part is that not a single sane person will disagree that faker is the goat.
BeryL being carried is one of the biggest BS I have ever heard.
@@ghibli5111 Please explain, on any team Beryl is carried by at least two others that go super saiyan
@@ghibli5111 he played with the best topside in league history in a low resource suportive bot duo where his only job was to EQ on alistar sometimes and with a mid lanner going absolutely super saiyan for one tournament. Beryl could have been replaced by litterally any other engage support player and neither of those worlds runs change
@@evanlawrence6796 Worlds 2023 bot meta was his fault, do you guys even realize that. Also, you guys completely ignore how important he was for both DWG and DRX macro wise. DK fall since BeryL left, they always lacked macro without him.
« Dragging corpses team to worlds »
Dude was playing with the Canyon, Ruler, Kiin, peanut, lehends, delight, keria (2020), Deft, Viper, Tarzan like he has actually played ONE year with hanwa when u could argue this, but every other year he was playing with top tiers players and super teams
Chovy’s a spectacular player, but it doesn’t take an Einstein to realize that in game 4 and 5’s, he’s built a very unhealthy habit of overfarming, over side-laning just to superscale till its too late, and it really hurt Gen G at worlds especially against T1 and even FLY. Still the best mid laner, just has some bad habits to break still, though I will say this season looks extremely promising for his preferred style.
Ya you're right. Chovy and GenG should stop playing the style they dominated all year with at worlds because it's not entertaining enough for the casual fan.
@ Who said anything about entertainment? You’re making a strawman argument to fit your narrative here firstly, and secondly, it doesn’t matter what happened the rest of the year because meta’s change and shift for each major patch, and gen g being taken to game 5 by flyquest of all teams was indicative of them not adapting to worlds properly. Their superfarm method worked because they abused tf out of ADC mid, ziggs in order to superscale to late game the rest of the year, and that was changed over a month before worlds. His insistence on power farming is a big reason those 1-2 most important games of the year absolutely failed gen g.
@Whales1992 a style that has dominated for 2 straight years suddenly isn't viable anymore because of the world's meta...
Could you explain what changed then since they still went 3-0 in swiss facing top teams, not wild card teams.
Also, you're just going to ignore the way "msi mvp" lehends played, huh?
How convenient. And you talk about me trying to fit a narrative lmao.
By all means, keep embarrassing yourself.
@@colin5197 It dominated last year? They lost worlds and MSI last year, and this year they did well in the first half, lost summer and worlds. You’re being nonsensical now. And this is a style that has persisted from Chovy since 2019/2020… Build all the super teams around him you want, it always fails in the semi-finals/finals against the other top teams, literally proven evidence.
@@colin5197 Also, it feels like you just didn’t watch worlds, the swiss stage at 3-0? Against 2 decent teams and 1 great teams? As if that’s the part that matters? Conveniently forgetting they were literally 1 teamfight away from being relegated by Flyquest in the first round of playoffs? Because their tactics didn’t adapt and they got read like a book by fly and t1? You’re speaking from anger at being proven wrong and being belittled because you’ve got no clue what in the world you’re talking about.
Stop being delulu, his reputation is in shambles after what he did last year.
Chovy HAS to win worlds this year or else he should legit retire......
The goal post moves because mechanically Chovy has goat potential. If you’re as good mechanically as Faker then Faker’s just the goal post. It is what it is. I don’t agree with it but that’s just how things work. Show greatness and people will expect greatness
But are people saying hes bad? I mean falers legacy is propably untouchable but like idk if its a hot take to say Chovy is great
Its valid tho? He is not on fakers level of greatness its that simple
Believe me when i said this
He’ll never win world in any universes
bcs he is an incomplete player. next question.
I think bro is T1 hater
thats what u got from this?🥴 t1 fans something else
well thats true chovy will never ever get close to faker level
Still all time Faker and Showmaker> Chovy
It is controversial that chovy is a great player because people don't want to put him above faker?? Lol what type of low IQ arguing is this.
Its only controversial to call him the goat
Faker himself said Chovy will win worlds.
It happens to all who come after goats. Just look at lebrons career. Everything he has done is compared to mj. It's kinda sad.
It was always that he couldn’t win worlds
Yeah literally until someone rivals faker in accomplishments, they won’t be considered to be at the same level as him. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
That's very unreasonable wdym... so unless you have 5 worlds titles you'll never be considered on his level even in the current moment? Get out of here
In GOAT status yes. In current status, there are midlaners that are equal or greater in form than Faker. @@Mazzle94
@@Mazzle94you should get out =)))) how can you be in the GOAT conversation against the GOAT if your trophy list is not even half of him. Take the same amount of time since Faker debut, he still stands higher than what Chovy accomplished. I dont think anyone says he is not a good midlaner, or a very talented one, just that when it matters the most, he failed.
@@KN-iu4sm no one is talking about him being the goat. We're talking about people being on fakers level. But i guess no one was on his level still even when he was shitting the bed on tristana mid for an entire split
Bruh, what are you on about? Isn't it obvious that you have to at least match his accomplisments to be in the conversation? Winning just one world championship isnt even enough from the start. The hell are you trying to say that the bar keeps on getting higher and higher? Very delusional take 😂
Hes good but difference maker isnt something he excells at. And thats what people like faker, doinb, rookie etc did.
He farm a shit ton thats about it no hate. That doesn’t work in a long run like seen in worlds. Sadly worlds is the do or die stage.
greatest play ever made, chovy 1v4 on galio
And when he wins more worlds than faker after Faker retires, ""WELL FAKER DID IT FIRST"
He's not winning 6 at this point let's be real. He will be 24 next world no?
Yea I really don't see a world where anyone other than Faker gets More than 3 worlds wins. Maybe the other members of ZOFGK might because they already have 2 so early but they could also never win again. Also not impossible that faker wins another world's just for the fun of it at this point
Its always been that he can't win worlds lol. Like I'm sure some ppl cared about lck, but like... c'mon those aren't real league fans
Not only can he not win worlds, the GenG super teams can barely squeak out of quarters. This year they almost go knocked out of quarters AGAIN and it was vs NA lol. GenG had just as much success at worlds with BDD as they ever have with Chovy.
The bar isn't moving at all, the bar is set.
The thing is that the bar is too high
chovy was nearly unmatched mechanically up until 2022, new talent has been popping up in zeka and other players (yagao but he‘s washed af) showed their prowess in the akali/sylas meta
I don’t think it’s the goalposts being moved necessarily. I think the main criticism is that he can’t win worlds, but when he was still struggling to win a domestic split yet why worlds that be a point of conversation?
I wonder if its not the case that people argue that chovy is not good, it is simply that for he is not the best player to touch the game and then comparisons come saying that chov is better than faker currently (which is true mechanically), which causes people to point out that he has gone to every worlds since being a pro in lck (not including 2018 cause it was not full year in the circuit), and he has only been in semi's twice when 1 of those was NA in quarters and the other being damwon which was worthy and losing to drx and t1 respectively 3:1 feeling like he and his team just collapsed in the moment. If the case is that he has the best top lane, support, adc and jg or even 3 out of the 4 best then he should be able to win and look good at worlds or even MSI. he has gone to MSI twice in 23, and 24 where in 23 he came 4th and t1 looked better and in 24 he won and looked good but compared to the number of times he has gone to internationals, it is lacking. its simply math. If he won once in 2020 or 2019 in his current form, then he would have been thought of immediately as one of the best (not that he isn't) but the fact is that he is batting 1 in 8 right now despite having been on pretty stacked rosters (minus HLE and possibly drx). if he cannot get it done on gen g with how well they recruit talent over the next 3 years of his contract, it really is questionable whether he will ever be one of the top 3 in fans mind.
like right now for me im going faker (historically obvious), showmaker, caps/scout.
if skewed to more weigh recency, then faker (recent form cannot push him out enough with some historical weighting), Knight, Chovy/Caps, Scout/Xaoihu
Note: Caps brings more to his team than most which is why I put him relatively higher
I hope chovy does well this year ima cheer for both faker and chovy and be neutrel on HLE (hate zeus move for loyalty reasons, like viper and peanut and delight so it cancels out)
I just want to make this clear: I personally do not like how people would justify their hate or dislike for a person due to their fans, it's just hypocritical, either side aren't really true fans but just haters.
I think the reason why some people would even bring Chovy down is due to how high others put him up to be. You can acknowledge how great a person is and their own lows without having to disrespect them or other players in comparison.
Some Chovy "fans" make him out to be the best player of all time, which of course, would spark some argument. It IS NOT arguable that he's a mechanically talented player, but to deny someone else's legacy with petty excuses such as "the game wasn't as developed at that time" is not only a disrespect to someone like Faker, but a lot of great players in history. Then the so-called "fans" proceed to shift all the blame towards his teammates, which I can understand to an extent but to act like Chovy doesn't have mistakes, just takes away from his own growth in his journey.
I think it's only a matter of time before he wins worlds, but a lot of his "fans" act like he's just "unlucky" and as if he just recently arrived on the pro play scene, he debuted 7 years ago, although to be fair it's mostly new fans that say those lol.
As an individual player, he's one of the, if not, the best player of this current time imo. Many people fail to realize that taking away someone's greatness, also does the same for the one they idolize (This also goes for T1 "fans"). I'm a huge fan of T1, but not acknowledging their competitors, just doesn't do justice for their own narrative, and the efforts of both them and others. I'm looking forward this year and I hope Chovy can live up to the hype as much as I want T1 and Faker's success. Pro play won't thrive without competition after all!
@unknown-q4b2r can you point out how chovy lost his team the series this year?
Cause I can sure as hell point out how bad msi mvp lehends played. And don't even get me started on peyz.
You say fans just blame his teammates... but wtf is he supposed to do? Play mid and support at the same time?
Carry so hard that your inting support doesn't matter?
Buy a death fire grasp and go around the map 1 shotting everyone with LB?
This isn't 2013 anymore mate. The game has changed. The average player is much better.
@@colin5197 Nah I wouldn't even try to argue with whatever Lehends was on this year 😂, the guy just straight up trolls and ints. I never said that his teammates wouldn't be a subject of faults, I just wanted to point out that Chovy isn't perfect either, I meant no insult for that matter. My comment isn't directed towards the true Chovy / GenG fans but towards the so called "fans" (that's why it's in quotation marks) that's either here for the bandwagon or just hate.
If this isn't obvious enough: I NEVER said Chovy is the main cause of him not winning worlds, I acknowledge his strengths, but he isn't as perfect as some "fans" make him out to be, and I personally think that's better, Chovy himself still knows he can improve, and I can't wait to see him coming back stronger.
Hopefully I made my stand clear enough cause I honestly don't want an argument when I'm not even belittling Chovy in any way
@@unknown-q4b2r that's too bad because I came for an argument.
How about we argue over how we like our steaks cooked instead?
@@colin5197he lost them the T1 series
I’d say both him and lehends did that
The only one has the burning will to fight back is Kiin
Canyon is kinda mid
Peyz is a rookie so we’ll let it slip
Watch closely his ahri game it’s just so hard to watch he being late every fricking teamfights, skirmishs depsite being full spell always 2lv ahead with the most gold advantage on him is just so fricking dogshit perfomance
Chovy is A great not THE
hes nowhere near the goat level, sure hes laning phase is superb,chovy strength is also his weakness. he doesnt have a clutch factor nor decisiveness as a player.
Chovy needs to win worlds or else he isn’t in the conversation of greatest midlanders of all time. Dom loves to downplay worlds especially for teams/players he likes and especially if they’ve won MSI. The thing is that every league player agrees that’s the grand prize. It’s also how it is in real sports. You can go 16-0 in the NFL (like Brady did) but if you don’t win the Super Bowl (like Brady did) you are not viewed as the greatest for that season. Had Brady had nothing but 16-0 seasons and no superbowls he would not be the greatest QB of all time, just the most disappointing. Chovy’s goal, just like it is every young Pro’s goal, is to win worlds. For himself, for his team, for his fans. Until he does that, he is in some way disappointing. You just can’t be the best player in the world on what has now been consistently the best team in the world (or one of 2) for a few seasons just to keep losing the one that matters most and that everyone brings their A game for.
@EatPlayNoSleep using football as an example was awful. There's no mid season super bowl LMAO
And worlds gets heavily overvalued by fans for having such a weak format from a competitive standpoint.
It's like the opposite of what every pro practices for all year lmao.
Yes, Worlds matters the most precisely because the format is especially hard to win, MSI even if it's a international tour it's still far easier overall. Where as Worlds many many players can barely have 1 cup or no cup at all in their lifetime let alone 5 like Faker, that's why it's so desireable and important. Regionals and MSIs can go, but the biggest tournaments of all where the biggest crowd gathers is the bread and butter
@@ohongphong9235 How is MSI "easier" than worlds? LMAO
Did T1 have to beat BLG twice in a row at worlds?
If it's so much easier, why didn't T1 win? Why haven't they won in the new format? Why haven't they won a sing double elim event EVER? If it's so much easier after all?
Can you explain that?
@@colin5197 there is a reason why T1 mostly dominates Worlds, it's a long drawn out tournaments that gives teams time to adapt and train, and the patch mostly stays the same. MSI has less teams participates, less matches, and the time lasted only about 2 weeks or so. Plus with pretty much no windows to rest, T1 with chock full schedule will find it hard to have time to train, where as Worlds have more windows to rest and train between matches.
🐷🌂
Same with the Lebron and MJ argument
Dom, shut up. You're one of those, every year you say Korea can win against China, and when korea wins you always have a excuse saying you knew korea was going to win.
Call me crazy but Delight is the best supp player in the world and he has no international titles.... bc titles arent everything. We have eyes, we can see when theyre good. Putting players against each other is just childish-
Um the bar was never moved. Chovy is an amazing player, but he’s failed worlds many times.
actually the bar moved, by Faker winning back to back again XD
Worlds are super overrated tho and still have the worst competitive format. MSI should be weighted much higher imo
@@GroundationOnly Delulu, double elim is worse format than single
@@wtfdude1830 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@wtfdude1830 tell me you know nothing about competitive eSports without telling me
It's simply because since 2021.2 Faker has been trying to get milk out of stone and make history by playing with SEVERAL NEWCOMERS while chovy had ruler, lehends, peanut, kiin, canyon etc, this should be the main point of the criticism.
@diegolemos9233 yes they were rookies 3 years ago but are we going to act like they aren't top players in their positions across the board?
@@colin5197 I'm not saying they aren't one of the best in their position today, but do you think it's normal that Chovy, who has been playing longer than Zeus, Oner and Guma, for example, can't perform consistently at international level like Zeus, Oner and Guma do, having 2 more years of career than the 3 "rookies" in T1?
@diegolemos9233 the whole can't perform "internationally" angle doesn't really hit ever since he smurfed at msi.
The truth is, we have much higher expectations for chovy than other players. Imagine applying those same standards to msi mvp lehends.
But we don't, because even if he runs it down all series, he's not supposed to be the best player in the world.
@@colin5197 Imagine faker didn't win Worlds, people will start saying he is washed, he should retire, etc.. The Expectations for faker is to keep winning worlds even though he has proved that he is relevant even after 10 years
@MightyBl4de it's only T1 fans who have those expectations of faker.
Any fan with at least a few brain cells who watched lck summer didn't expect faker and t1 to win.
These same fans wouldn't say he's washed and should retire if he lost game 5 to blg.
Most people don't expect faker to still be winning worlds this far into his career. It's a testament to his longevity that he is.
If his wrist is truly a problem that causes him a lot of pain, then he should retire, but if not, then he should play for as long as he wants. He's earned that much.
When people hype you up, you meet their expectations. Faker did. Showmaker did. Chovy did not. It is not even people protecting Faker's legacy, it is Chovy not living upto expectations
He lives up to them 90% of the year and then in worlds when he loses past 2 years haven't even been his fault. But it's a team game afterall.
The worst player on the winning team is better than the best player on the losing team. That's the average lol fans logic.
Interesting take btw
@@colin5197Faker single handedly saved his team from losing in 2023 semis (Azir shuffle) and 2024 finals (game 4 and 5). Chovy has been unable to do so at worlds.
@@colin5197yeah most lol fans are hyper delulu unfortunately. It's a fact that not the best player wins but the worst player loses the game. Faker winning year after year is proof of this too, since he can't win domestically since 5? Years or so. He needs the special worlds patch tailored for T1 and the abysmal format that worlds have to have a chance at winning it...
Chovy literally had the meta favoring him MSI and he delivered. The meta did favor chovy at worlds and he did not deliver. when faker was called the best player, the expectation was bare minimum a world championship and he won it. chovy still has not delivered even after people hyping him up even with great rosters for the past three years at worlds. I too would like to see chovy win but he is the one who is not living up to the hype.
😑
Does faker win his 6th before chovy win 1?
At this point I just think this guy is a professional faker hater😂😂😂