What if Greece joined the Central Powers in WW1?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- Greece joining the Central Powers would change surprisingly a lot after the war has ended. Just to give you a sneak peak, the Russians wouldn’t sign Brest-Litovsk Peace Treaty and go Communist, as well as the Austrian Painter wouldn’t start World War Two. Let’s see how all of this could have happened!
It took the Kingdom of Greece three years from the start of World War I to decide which side to join. While the government of Prime Minister Eleftherios Venizelos and the majority of the population sympathized with the Entente, the Greek King Constantine I, as a relative of the German Emperor Wilhelm II, wished to join the conflict on the side of the Central Powers.
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I'll give it a 4 in terms of realism. The basic premise is beyond unlikely, as Serbia didn't have any Greek-inhabited territory, and that Greeks would rebel with nothing to win two years into the war is just impossible. The people didn't support Venizelos because they were pro-Entente, but because Bulgaria and the Ottomans had already joined the Central Powers. As long as they were neutral, Venizelos himself supported tacit neutrality. There's no way Venizelos would rebel with nothing to win, only to cede major lands to Bulgaria. Besides, I don't see how Yugoslavia would annex all of Albania, without Greece getting Northern Epirus. And in this video, 3/4ths of the Greeks remain outside her borders, so there's either massive genocides and population exchanges, or Greece is revanchist and fascist. The rest of the video logically follows.
Goals are unclear... But the outcome is pretty realistic.
@@alexzero3736 Eh, kinda but again not really. Venizelos wouldn't revolt unless promised something and I doubt he would have really taken the side of the Entente if it meant giving Bulgaria Macedonia and getting nothing in return.
@@georgios_5342 actually, it doesn't matter. Greek army and fleet were pretty small, If Bulgaria in the Entente, Greeks are fckd. Also Britain, Italy and Russia could provide reinforcements to Bulgaria. Especially that improves things for Russia as Black Sea blockade would be broken thanks to access to Bulgarian ports.
This is just for fun god..
@@alexzero3736 I'd argue the opposite, the Greek army, while smaller than the Bulgarian in terms of fielded manpower, was better equipped, had much more skilled leadership and initiative, and attempted encircling maneuvers, which won them important battles both in the Balkan Wars and the actual First World War. At the same time the Greek navy, while no match for Britain, was important in terms of regional power projection, preventing the Ottomans from reinforcing the Balkans during the Balkan Wars and acquiring all of the Aegean Islands. Bulgaria would think twice before joining the Entente, as even if Britain managed to take over Crete or some islands, the joint Greek-Turkish push would very likely cause Bulgaria to capitulate. At the same time it is very unlikely that Serbia would give up Skopia and other Bulgarian claims to them, which would either way cause friction between the two. I just see that the scenario is trying to make Bulgaria win where it seems unrelated to the topic. It is very unlikely that Greece or Serbia would just accept losing Macedonia to Bulgaria, and a Third World War would be very likely, similar to the Kaisserreich universe. But we still saw nothing like that, it looks as if we're just trying to make Bulgaria super strong for some reason
This is actually completely unrealistic. Firstly , Czechoslovakia wouldn't gain anymore land than what they got in our timeline,even the border between poland and Czechia was disputed and a short war broke out .Moreover , The Ukrainians wouldn't take so much land from the Russians just bcs they gave away Moldova (only the northern part which wasn't even inhabited by ukrainians ..The Bulgarians wouldn't get Constantinople either.It would remain under Turkish or British occupation.Lastely , Hitler wouldn't declare war on the Allies , as according to our sources , he was really afraid of the alkies and had they refused his "demands" , he would probably remain quiet .Also , why would the polish take so much non-polish inhabited land from the Germans?
I think you are wrong that the borders of checoslovakia are bad. and if you think ukraine shouldent get that land in the caucases look at an ethnic map of kuban and rostov. however you are right about the borders of poland
@@pdp117O well ,there were mass genocides curried by the Russians against the Ukrainian and local kosak and Circassian population so it would make sense that there wouldn't be a Ukrainian majority in the far east of the region
This video was very entertaining, despite being definitely on the more unrealistic side. Not a complaint. The deviate the more freedom you get, especially regarding events to tell a great story while using real history as inspiration.
Appreciate that, glad to see that people still enjoy it, despite it being not the most realistic work of mine
@@rewriting-history I’m always along for the ride as long as it’s an interesting story 👍
Never give konigsberg to poland again
yea, give it to the czechs
I agree
*Królewiec
Give it to thailand
Why would poland get east Prussia? And return the sorbs to germany, the Czech border looks ridiculous with those lands randomly sticking out.
Hello rewriting history this scenario is very unrealistic because greece's public supported the entente and also working with yout two enemies/rivals is not a good options but still this video is very good and nice😊 also your on a uploading streak thats also nice😊
Edit: also i prefer grece joing lately like in 1917 not in 1914
Appreciate the kind comment. I know the public was pro-entente, this is why I said that the UK would easily land and Eleftherios Venizelos would become prime minister of Greece.
@@rewriting-history yeah your work is amazing why would I lie we should appreciate the good work of people's 👍😌
5:21 NOOO, you used the present Finland borders, also I’ve seen you use the modern Poland borders when splitting it in your multiple alt histories
he fixed it in 10:00
@@zevnduck9904Not completely: Finland doesn't have eastern part of Salla and Jäniskoski-Niskakoski territory in it.
Realism here is 5. Poland wouldn't get compensated due to them winning the east,not it being given to them. And as a result Prussia would be german. Czechoslovakia getting sorbia as compensation for Ruthenia-carpathia is also unrealistic because they don't know Czechoslovakia got it in our timeline. I also believe Bulgaria would request all of Dobruja, including the Romanian part. The autant, wanting to get an ally in the region, would offer all of Transylvania as well as all of Bessarabia if Romania joined the war and gave up Dobruja.Yet it was still worth watching
I agree. "Eastern Poland" Never was promised, Pilsudski got it by force.
No way russia would allow independent poland or finland
Suggestion: What if Belgium never left the Netherlands? I believe that in this timeline, it wouldn't have changed to much immediately and instead later in WW1 I think that Germay would never invade the Netherlands instead they would just try and break through the French line with concentrated Howitzer and Artillery attacks which would take longer but also with Britain not immediately in the warif they broke the line they could have had a chance to take Paris.
Netherlands+ Belgium would be another major competitor in Europe. Probably there would be French- Netherland - Russian alliance. Or maybe that would even slow down unification of Germany...like Denmark influence in the North.
Loved the video, i don't know how realistic it would be but three ideas i really want to see:
-what if everything went perfect for bavaria? maybe we could have 3 german great powers, and if bavaria united germany, we could see munich as the german capital.
-what if everything went perfect for spain, and it kept all its american colonies? i just want to see spain absolutely dominate.
-what if spain joined the axis in ww2? maybe portugal would join the allies to grab some portugese minority lands after the end of the war.
If Greece joined in 1917 then the central powers would definitely win because
1. Bulgaria would have to worry about any fronts threatening their home and thus the Bulgarian would basically be free to help out wherever they were needed. Most likely the ottomans or the Austrians.
2. Austria hungary wouldn't have to surface an enemy to the south and could just focus on Italy which we know how that will go for the italians.
3. Greece is very mountainous so any Entente offensive will end just like gallipoli and also Greece will have Bulgarian support so not a lot of attacks on Greece itself.
4. With Italy on the backfoot, the Entente will have two options. Either let the Italians deal with conflict themselves and focus on the Western front or divert forces to help Italy. Both optional bad for them as either Italy falls or Paris falls.
The only problem I see for Greece is the Entente blockading their port which could lead to food shortages and the prospect of a civil war between those that wanted to join the Entente and those that wanted to join the central powers.
you're overestimating Greece and Bulgaria so much and underestimating USA so much. Thıs would slow down the collapse of central powers.
@@barkankirecci6939 2 out of 4 Central powers nations surrendered because Greece joined the Entente
Exactly! Without Greece in the Entente, there is no early collapse of the entire southern front of the Central Powers in late 1918, which historically led to Germany agreeing to an armistice in November. The war would likely go into 1919 with the Allies invading Germany and reaching the Rhine by late summer, triggering the fall of the Kaiser and maybe unconditional surrender, which could have avoided the “stab in the back” myth that helped ultra-nationalist movements gain popularity after the war.
@@ppalchinsky8301 I would assume that Germanys allies such as austria hungary and Bulgaria could contribute some troops to the Western Front. Bulgaria has nothing to do so they can help anyone they want and austria hungary is also only fighting 1 front this time against the Italians and we know how incompetent Italian leaderships was and how depleted the Italians were, Italy could not afford as many human wave attacks as before unless the conscripted more men. So I predict the Italian front will become just like the Western Front. If Germanys allies send some help then there is a chance that the Germans could hold long enough for a ceasefire.
@@barkankirecci6939it would’ve quicken the pace by a little bit
Suggestion: What if Bulgaria join the allies in WW1 and What if 1938 Polish ultimatum to Lithuania cause WW2?
Really interesting scenario, but if we’re realistic Bulgaria would just get eastern Macedonia and midia enos eastern Thrace lol. Greece would keep Thessaloniki and turkey the rest of Thrace and Istanbul
I agree, maybe should have given them more modest borders and not these crazy ones
LOVE your work! 😊😊😊❤❤❤
Thank you! Cheers!
@@rewriting-history np
Suggestion: What if Italy joined central powers?
We’ll the Greek front caused both Bulgaria ottomans and even eventually the Austrians to surrender so if there wasn’t a front there more central power soldiers would be diverted to the western Italian and eastern fronts so if this stops the Americans from joining when they did with more central power victory’s it maybe could lead to a win for the central powers with a slim chance
But most likely the war would mostly stay the same
This is a pretty cool alternate video to watch however on a realism scale it's sadly a 4/10 for me but I do have one question tho what about the communist/socialist movement in Germany that did happen I believe it was in Bavaria and some parts of Germany like towns and stuff but since for this timeline Germany lost more than IRL would it spread more through out the rest of Germany and might that cause a (three way or maybe four or just a) civil war with the government (and or the nationalist with or without their involvement in said civil war) so what do you think because I am curious
Suggestion: What if Leopold accepted the crown of greece?
Really liked this video I'd give it a realism of 3-4 out of 10 I like how you don't end this video early continuing it is so much better!
I'll give it a 3 in terms of how realistic it is.There would be no point for Greece to join the central powers,because we(the greeks) wanted land from Bulgaria and the ottomans,which had a lot of ethnic greeks and serbia didn't have any.The only territory Greece would get in this scenario would be northern epirus,the dodecanese and maybe cyprus(that depends on if the ottomans would focus there).Still,it's nice to see somebody make this scenario
I don't know why you used napoleonic poland as a base-you probably should use polish kingdom as teritories in the west weren't polish (except some minor teritories) and there is no way east prussia would go to Poland as it was basicly german
Perhaps you're right, I should have changed it up a bit, but it doesn't matter too much. In the future I will think more about these changes.
@@rewriting-historyThanks! Great video either way
Berlin was slavic its a pity germans had to steal that region and germanify now extinct polabian slavs
I’d like to add one important modification of this, and that is that instead of Otto being crowned back in 1821, a local Greek like Kolokotronis was instead. So the Kingdom of Greece didn’t function as a German controlled puppet but rather pursued its own interests for 100 years before the outbreak of WW1 with staunch support and a strong ally in Russia for the 19th Century?
I rate this video 2 on the realism scale, however I still thoroughly enjoyed it.
This is good to hear, in the future I will do more realistic videos, around 7,8/10
Yes I would however reccomend a mix of videos
Could you do this with italy next?
Nice vid Like always
What If ottoman Empire joins entente?
I'd give it a 5 on realism but still pretty interesting nonetheless
Bro ... I know people like to run with things because its alternate history, but is beyond the suspension of disbelief. Greece wasn't about to go against its own interests, and even King Constantine knew that supporting the Central Powers was a non-starter as that would lead to direct conflict with Britain, something Greece wanted to avoid. This was why he favored neutrality.
Aeh my nobleman, please make a video where Portugal colonized Canada, Australia and India.
Constantine I was pro neutrality
The first part is fucking unrealistic, the entente promised much more fucking lands, like the whole banat, crisana and some of zakarpathia, the "ending" about bessarabia, that ending, is the worst fucking lie in history
That Was a Fascinating Video!
You're starting to give me Ideas!
6:15 There is a contradiction. If we save monarchy in Russia, than it is still one of leading Entente members and Nicholas 2 was against creation of Yugoslavia, as tsarist government saw Russia as overlord over Slavs.
Although you did give Bulgaria an appeasement.
5 or 6, but I love it. :)
I'm glad you did!
Realism 3: georgios makes most of the arguments but he missed some things at the end.
Firstly would the austrian painter even take power if communism barely exists? A big selling point of the austrian painter was the fear of communism.
Secondly the austrian painter in otl gave instructions to his generals to pull out of the rhineland if france intervened, so him refusing to do that makes no sense.
Lastly if china didn't have soviet support the northern expedition wouldn't have worked, so china would be even less united, except instead of communists being the problem it's warlords, namely the zhilli clique
I have a unique scenario for you. The Occupation of the Ruhr, in which the French and Belgians occupied the very resource rich and industrial Ruhrterritory, was seen by the Brits as illegal and by the Americans as "violent politics". So what if Belgium and France did not give in to the demands of the Brits and Americans which would lead to another franco-german war? Just that the germans would be backed by the Brits and Americans.
Do what if italy didn't join with germany in ww2
Speaking of Greece, what do you think about a scenario where Romanos IV Diogenes was able to consolidate power in the ERE and create a new dinasty with his children?
What if Italy was neutral up to 1917?
In our timeline the troops that remilitarized the Rhineland had orders to immediately turn back if they met any French troops, so I would think that Austrian painter would comply with the ultimatum
I don't understand why in every scenario you assume that Albania will just be annexed by some random nation without revolting, even though they aren't similar in any aspect to their neighbors. Albanians were revolting even before the first Balkan war so I don't expect them to just stop when they are annexed by some other nation. You need to do more research about the nation during that time my friend, so your videos can become more realistic
in every video possible somehow bulgaria gets always macedonia and thrace, sometimes as spoils of war and sometimes to prevent wars
I don't think that the section about Spain is very realistic. Ever since the Semana Tragica in 1909, Spain had been set on the path tension between the working class and the military.
Nothing has changed in this alternate history that would lead to the Rif War (1921-1926) not happening. So the Battle of Annual still happens, which means Primo de Rivera and the Africanists still have to seize control to prevent the parliament from calling them to account for 13,000 dead Spanish soldiers.
Glossing over this as Spain wasn't so "communist" deeply misrepresents the actual history here, which is a danger with alternate history. At some point "vibes" become historical revisionism, which can lead to truly uncomfortable places when talking about 20th century Europe.
I have a video idea and i have absolutely no idea if
it would even be possible for this to happen, but
the idea is: "What if ustria had remained a small
german state/ What if Austria hadn't become an
empire."
I give it a 6/10 for realism.
Not bad, it's about a bit over above average!
If the ottomans joined the entente it was possible I imagine many eastern thracian lands going to Bulgaria, Gallipoli to Germany, or with a strait commission and Costantinopole to Greece with western Anatolia.
You mis undestood the history a bit kerensky was an enitrely differnet faction the trudoviks and the mensheviks only had a smaller role in the goverment.
What if Crassus conquered Persia
realism 5
A little idealized- but still entertaining. More like this please!
actually, i’d give you a seven, good job.
Thank you very much, appreciate that!
I love this
Why would Poland need to be compensated for the eastern territories they weren’t given to them by the entente they won annex the territories after a war with the Soviet Union. Also the internal politics of Russia in this make no sense
Do a scenario where after ww2 the greeks and turks unite into a new republic/empire of rum(rome) due to fear of communism and the soviets
A very happy timeline. So I refuse to rank it on principle.
Off topic:Romania would have still gained North Bucovina
Yep, I guess it's just poor mapping on my part. When writing the script it's hard to think of all of these changes, but I'm getting better
2.5 Realism but you made the scenario fun by russia not turning comunist
Also non-realistic cause the greek public eould oppose the joining of the Central powers but the mire unrealistic the more fun
I know that Greece would never join the Central Powers, and I never claimed this video is realistic. It is just a scenario on what if they did. :)
3 in realism I would say the internal issues are big but the rest is kinda a 5
Why does germany get punished so much harder in this timeline?
Russia is at negotiation table
That's actually could be even harder, like broke up Germany into series of States like it was in 1866, and give Eastern Prussia to Russia. Both Paris and Petersburg wanted a destruction of German threat... Also USA kinda not involved. IRL Both USA and Britain made the treaty of Versailles softersofter
cheese and barbecue pringles
The cristero wasn't a civil it was a rebelion against anti clerical policies. The Soviets existing or not wouldn't have changed much. Bc firstly, it was regional and bc socialist policies had already been part of mexican politics dating back to Benito Juarez (its who Benito musulini was named after) and even more so during the revolution. it was only the Calles regime that religious repression took a more official hold (anti clerical policies had been a thing just prior to the French intervention)
Alexei Nikolaevich Romanov or Michael Alexandrovich Romanov would have became Tsar as Alexei II or Michael II respectively after Nicholas II's abdication, otherwise the abdicated Nicholas II would have simply came back to power by force with the help of the Black Hundreds and other Tsarist right-wing groups soon following 1920, as theres no way he would want a republican government in Russia to follow after his abdication, so its more likely that Alexei II or Michael II would succeed him as a compromise between the abdicated Tsar and the Mensheviks, though both are likely more lenient to serve as constitutional monarchs rather than as absolute monarchs like Nicholas II, especially if his heir is to be Michael II (which is more likely than Alexei II, whom was a hemophiliac, though Alexei II could live till his 30s-40s and produce a son, as its not impossible), as he was known for his much more liberal and constitutionalist views than his older brother.
I am 5, Nicholas will fall but the Monarchy would not, Another thing is independent Poland, the allies would be very tired to force Russia to leave, it would probably be a compromise with Poland becoming more autonomous, another thing is the war of Turkish independence, which without Soviet support the Turks would lose, otherwise ok
it was very unrealistic but I loved it..
5 out of 10 not the video but the realism of the video cause mustfa kamel will not let the Bulgarians take Istanbul aka constantinople im from the UAE but my family comes from hejaz mustfa kamel said to the Muslim world to fight for the caliphate aka the ottomans then he won after that he bought the ottomans to the allies in the treaty of Lausanne and disconnected Turkey from Islam yes some say the arabs betrayed the ottomans but the British government did say to the srif of maka Hussein to go against the ottomans but most of the Arab world didnt cause they respected the ottomans and they caliph and the caliph is like the the Pope to the Christians side note l know that I yap Alot sometimes but I love your content even though we can disagree sometimes 😂😂
Realism 3
6, why would russia give these status to Ukraine and the Baltic bro
There is going to be a lot of pressure and if they don't do it, they would collapse.
@@rewriting-history they wouldn't
I'd say 7 on realism scale
That's really good, good sign for me
@@rewriting-history Only party that I consider unrealistic as a Bulgarian myself is the amount of Macedonia Serbia was willing to give.
Άρα όλα βασίζονται στην Ελλάδα λόγω γεωγραφικής θέσης
🤫🧏🏿♂️
I would add, that the new german borders are a bitt far fetched. I can see no cenario, were the sorbs are Part of an other country than germany. They are part of the german realm since the 10th century and therefore very much intigrated. Further would make the complete anexation of east prussia any young polish state very unstabel because of the huge german minority who would now live outside germany. I can imagen a timeline were around 1918 the south of east prussia becomes polish but not the hole region.
But dispite all of that explores this video an interesting tomeline and is verry entertaining.
Would have been really nice🇧🇬❤️
Realism: 5/10
Greece is either getting to accomplidh the megali line or lose a ton of territory
They could just accept lands in Smyrna and not risk going any further.
Very very unlikely, the begining of the video is ok, but the peacedeal is just 100% never would have happened. 2/10 on the realisim meter
Σαν λέμε τους μυδικους πολέμους στην αρχαιότητα
Why would they do that? Lol
5
Quite a poorly written script.
Greece would be a much more USEFUL ally than Bulgaria. Greece won the two Balkan wars; it had a powerful army (I would even say more powerful than the Bulgarian one, due to better equipment and experience) and a definitely more powerful fleet. It is possible that more skillful actions of the Austro-Hungarian fleet (which, by the way, acted much better than the field army) could have pinned down the Italian Navy and either forced the British to disperse their forces even more, or create more problems for Italy’s logistics. Without Greece on the Entente side, I see no reason why Gallipoli would even happen.
The Greek people certainly won't rebel because of Constantine's political sympathies, because that's just stupid. The people in any country didn’t really care who they fought for; they didn’t care about starving and fighting a protracted war (but the latter is typical only for the isolationist USA). I am also not sure that Constantine will establish an absolute monarchy, although he will clearly limit the influence of political parties, which, if there are victories, can make politics in Greece more stable (let me remind you that political chaos also allowed the Turks to defeat them in 1922, when the generals changed like gloves and the defense was generally commanded by some lunatic).
I fully believe that the Serbian and Bulgarian armies would have capitulated in 195-1916, and then with one front and a blockade of ports, Italy could have been taken out of the war (after Caporeto, it was one step away from this). If in 1917 the capitulation of both Russia (and it will definitely happen) and Italy (more likely than in our reality) had occurred, then the United States would not have supported the collapsing Entente, and France and England, faced with the threat of a second front in Provence, would have agreed to a compromise peace .
6
3
But where are the allies going to invade to make them surrender italy?
4
Björk
:)
3/10
Ausztria wil not resive parst of western hungary !