ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ธ.ค. 2023
- Does Moto GP have an Aero Problem?
Which aerodynamic devices are there on a MotoGP bike?
How do they work?
And what impact do they have on racing?
Let me know your thoughts in the comments below!
MotoGP 2023 - Aero Updates EXPLAINED
• MotoGP 2023 - Aero Upd...
MotoGP 2022 - Ducati's Stegosaurus Wings EXPLAINED
• MotoGP 2022 - Ducati's...
MotoGP 2022 - Aprilia's Aero War EXPLAINED
• MotoGP 2022 - Aprilia'...
The Tricks of MotoGP EXPLAINED (Package & Aero)
• The Tricks of MotoGP E...
#motogp #aerodynamics
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It's incredible how MotoGP has willingly gone down this route despite riders clearly saying that it is ruining the racing.
Thank Dorna and they favoring Ducati since the ECU standardization
I mean it does if u dont get past in early laps with cold tures etc its much harder to pass when you need aero to get performance. F1 battles this constantly. But its fact these bikes get so stiff tires get stiff to handle loads and keep aero platforms ideal it destroys all riding feel. Its not like WSBK where a rider can make bikes do crazy stuff cause they r complient. In GP talent is required or you are wrecking. Even if ur the best these aero GP bikes are wholy unforgiving
@@dantton1987 It makes me so darn mad.
If you want real racing, moto2 and moto3 still use same engine, part, body, no wing element.
The racing is pretty good let’s be fair - tyre conservation/preservation is more of an issue personally, they should make the tyres last for longer and so you can push on them more for longer - rather than the first 8-10 laps of easing into a race winning pace. To me that’s what the focus should be more on
Some corrections.
1 The wings are enclosed because the regulator said that so they are safer in case of a crash.
2 The wing on the fork have been introduced by Aprilia, not Ducati.
No true :D in current shape yes its is. But Ducati run semicovered concave front wheel cowling in the past. Witch also acts as a wing but in subtle differences.
Might be the initial reason. Actually though induced drag is a very common problem in aviation and since most of those winglets are inverted airfoils (low and high pressure on either side; bottom curved and top is flat), the problem had to be addressed and solved too. That's why the winglets either have some thickness to it or/and are mounted at an angle, which is called angle of attack (α) which is a coefficient for lift or in this case downforce.
Quite funny tho at first I thought of winglets as just angled planes, but then I got my hands on a BMW M1000 rr winglet and saw the airfoil profile.
More to induced drag:
Induced drag led aerospace engineers to apply those initial winglets to commercial airplanes, since induced drag as its name suggests is nothing else than lost energy induced through tip vortices. I don't know the exact numbers, but those winglets on the tips on every airfoil save tons of fuel. And they are pointed upwards has to do with limited space on airport terminals.
Another way to reduce induced drag is to increase the aspect ratio of the wings which is the reason gliders are so wide.
Maybe I am wrong, but from what I remember the vertical connection between wings is due to regulation because back in 2017 when single wings were banned, ducati found a "hole" in the regulation introducing fairing integrated wings. And from that moment on all the wings maintained that style
Exactly this. U can see how Yamaha and Aprilia played with this "loophole" in order too create double wing.
FOM officials couldn't come up with meaningful aero restrictions if their lives depended on them. Suspension mounted wings ffs, FIA banned these almost 60 years ago.
Moto GP is in their 2008 F1 phase
Thank god🙏
I still find MotoGP races pretty amazing and competitive, whilst being faster due to aero. For now, I like it very much
And there's different winners and not only the usual 3-4.
There are way less overtakes though, which was the difference between Moto GP and other series, especially F1.
As much as I love the technical aspect aerodynamic development brings, if it gets in the way of racing, it's a no-brainer which is the priority. Good racing comes first, always.
Dorna need more reasonable people like yourself in their technical department.
The rear wing is very helpful for braking aswell, as it keeps the bike from flipping over. Ideally the rider moves to the side before initiating braking to not block the rear wing.
Also having ground effect on a bike must feel scary as hell. Imagine being close to the lean limit and suffently the bike gets sucked down further
I know a lot are against it... but for me its very interesting the wings and the track times how they are faster and lap times are broken every year
And thats why i am for the wings 😃
Imagine thinking trading closer racing for faster lap times is a good thing
@@dantton1987 imagine driving the same bike design for 100 years and stop inovating and searching new ways to go faster.
@@dantton1987Imagine banning innovation in what is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorcycle racing
@@zelcpavle5494 banning wings doesn't mean banning inovation.
@@Ricky911_ imagine thinking it's okay to restrain the cubic capacity of the engines but it is not okay to ban wings.
I believe that if you want to create the fastest road bike possible and race them against each other, it should be done on a clock. If you want rider’s skill to be showcased, then they need to be more of a spec machine. This can be applied to any motorsport.
5:04 This is an excellent example of how far behind team Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki were in the Aero Development race. Not even KTM and Aprillia’s factory teams have beaten all the Ducati satellite teams.
I disagree, the racing is great. Unless there's actual statistics, like passing has decreased, I could see it somehow.
The only thing I'd say is getting worse, is the chances of rider injury because the bikes are too fast.
Other than that, people should just watch moto2 if they don't want aero.
Totally agree. :D I dont see really any decline. Bikes are even more closer now because standard ECUS and tires. Also Ducati essentially provide full support for many off their customers. Witch was unheard off too happen in other categories. Heck semi-factory rider was runner up for title till last race this year...
@@alesksander A private team won the team's championship for Pete's sake. People just like to complain
@@SONO4B11T Yeah majority wining solely beacuse their team is not winning. But pont stands correct. I dont think aero influence on bikes will be in any period so bad as in cars.
Racing without overtakes is a lot, but not great. F1 is surely amazing because of how fast the car go, is it great racing when there’s no overtakes? Not really, that’s why they introduced DRS. Moto GP always stood out by having extremely many overtakes, if they lose that (which they already have), they lack their most valuable asset. They get faster and faster, but the races get more boring.
Phenomenal video 👏 top work!
As someone who follows F1 and MotoGp, I've been fascinated at the aero development in MotoGp over the years. If you look back even as long ago as 2015 it's like the manufacturers were stuck in time with only the front wings to help with anti wheelie. And then circa 3 or 4 years ago Ducati must have had osme a-ha moments and I've been fascinated to understand what the different components do.
The front wheel attachment: I always thought these devices on the Ducati and Aprila were some sort of flow conditioners until I watched your video. I now understand they are....ground effect. Wow. Insane.
I would love to hear from a current rider how much more physical this makes the bike. I remember on a F1 related podcast a few years ago, Gary Anderson (ex Jordan F1 head of technical) explaining how different the current era of ground efect cars are versus the 2018-2021 era of F1 cars and he explained the 2018-21 cars there was a much wider suction effect which allowed for different ride heights but the new cars from 2022 onwards, whilst the ground effect is more extreme, the suction window is narrow and once the ride height is changed the cars drop downforce massively. He explained this by the analogy to when you try and pick up a piece of heavy laminated chipboard off a smooth floor. To begin with it just won't lift and then once you get your fingernails under you see the air sucks all the wood chippings and dust from nearby under the sheet and then as you lift it the suction stops. Mad!
Interesting bit about the ground effect design on the Aprilia and the need to move the cooling fins upwards. If I am not mistaken Espargaró and Viñales both faced extreme overheating in Indonesia, Malaysia and other extremely hot venues. Certainly the design has some cooling deficiencies.
Great video. I had no idea of the side diffusers.
Thank you thank you 🙏🤲🔥🔥🙌🙌👏👏 outstanding work flawless
Awesome video. AWESOME.
I think it's cool and would like to see a special series of bikes that are designed with aero in mind
Very informative and well made video , great English also !
I’m mixed. I love the way racing was. However, I love the aerodynamic elements a lot. I wish we could have both!!!
Crazy how far aero in motogp has gone. It's even more complicated to understand than in cars since the bikes have so many different fases when going into a corner.
It's killing the excitement of a MotoGP race when before, we can see overtake in almost every part of the circuit, almost every corner. Now the overtaking area is massively reduced to some corner or in only in the straight. Riders used to overtake side by side corner by corner tirelessly, but now rider tend to follow each other longer without any overtake.
Or even worse. They have to deliberately lift off so the front tires don't overheat. The aero craze is a blight in MotoGP
@@dantton1987 tyre preservation have always been part of MotoGP, hence why I found that sprint race are more exciting than the main race, because the rider can just go full throttle without any strategy, without thinking about saving fuel and tire
@@padisuromertani Saving fuel and tires are what makes racing fascinating.
@@perfectman3077 watching the fastest people on the fastest machines racing as fast as they can is what racing is. Saving anything is a negative
@@padisuromertani My point is doing so BECAUSE of wings and other aero bits
The awful Michelin tyres that were introduced were the cause of these wings due to zero frontend grip.
And the introduction of magneti marelli ECU,
@@padisuromertaniexplain please
It was much more dumber ecu than what Yamaha and Honda were using at that point
Depends what you would consider "right" direction the goal is to increase viewership from more competitive racing so down force can increase passing while also increasing danger both are attractive to new viewers but it also for the same reasons cause many problems
On the angled rear wings during cornering, don’t the two force vectors combine into a bike-relative vertical force into the tyre at any angle?
I think is great addition from technical perspective, but from racing is too effective because the dirty air
But, Marc Marquez said it on the commentary at Honda Racing Thanks Day, there gonna be 2027 regulations with less aero part.
Great vids.
Wonderful video with some great photos. I say it's a prototype class, let them have their way.
Quality as always.
I think that aerodynamics helps if the list of advantages is definetly longer than disadvantages. It seems not the case for motorbike. Due to his natural shape, a motobike belongs to the world extremely low aspect ratio bodies, therefore the real big advantages could be confined to a small amount of technical choices. And these choices could work very well in a isolated wind tunnel test model, i doubt with the same efficiency in the "middle of the crowd".
I don't know how it happened but I've essentially become notification gang with this channel, the content is so good
Whether I like it or not. I am thoroughly impressed at how quickly motorcycle fluid dynamics engineers are figuring all this out.
It took automobile racing engineers close to 50 years to figure out how to best use the air.
And the motorcycle engineers are accelerating the speed of improvement for bike in what, a decade?
I don't know but it seems like warp speed acceleration.
I don't see cars beating bikes through corners for very much longer.
I don't agree that better aerodynamic performance "makes racing worse". I think what makes racing better is getting around the track faster.
Nah, i wouldn't say being the fastest and breaking so many records but having worse racing quality justifies those aero.
For most of the stuff i see, keeping your speed just a bit slower can actually benefit in producing a better quality product and also it kept cost far lower as well.
@@AbrahamArthemius2 year in row where the championship is fought till the last race and isn't enough entertaining? At this point you people just love to complain without any reason
In my opinion, I don't know if it should be MotoGP doing so but I really like aero finally coming to bikes because the motorcycles will become a lot faster and also the production models will become faster as well, I truly like it because bikes stayed basically the same for a lot of years now (electronic aids apart). So I think MotoGP should be the forward tecnology carring sport for motorcycles (because they have more money) while the fun and competitive part should be carried by WSB for example
Amazing
Learning about MotoGP got me interested enough to watch races now and then. Being a major F1 fan
That’s what I’m saying. Aero is performance at the disadvantage of Hard racing
Grundsätzlich ist Aero bei der Moto GP am richtigen Ort. Ansonsten hätten wir eine zweite SBK Meisterschaft.
Eine wichtige Differenz zwischen MotoGP und F1 ist, dass bei der MotoGP nicht zwingend nach maximalem Abtrieb gesucht wird. Die Maschine muss ja auch aus der Schräglage wieder raus kommen. Das macht die ganze Sache noch komplexer 😐
Übrigens ein super Video, wie immer 💃🏻
Excellent video, as usual. The work the aerodynamicists are doing in MOTO GP is very interesting, but unfortunately, is not good for the sport. IMHO, it's time to take off all the wings and winglets of the bikes and allow them to work only in the shape of the bodywork.
It is hard to said aerodynamic ruins everything in motorsports because reason term of "Pinnacle of Motorsport" but the Regulations must be tightened where areas could added the aero, wheres area that not allowed to be added, but i still enjoying motoGP race with aero & electronic devices
The bad thing about aero is making lot of track feel not wide enough only 1 meter of optimal line and such, so less offline overtake manouver
Honestly, I love that they are bringing in more aerodynamics. Comparing MotoGP and F1 isn't really ideal since most overtakes are done by a faster car and on straights in Formula 1 because it's that hard to follow other cars. With motorcycles, we're seeing plenty of action regardless of the aerodynamics and, despite the dirty air, Marquez has benefited from towing other riders in qualifying so it's clearly not as much of an issue as most people seem to think. Realistically speaking, we've been having much more action now than when Marquez was winning every race. MotoGP is supposed to be the top of motorcycle engineering. Formula 1 was forced to reduce aerodynamic components and add a drag reduction system because the racing was that bad. MotoGP isn't having that issue at all so reducing the aerodynamic components would just ruin the fun. Another thing is I personally find it really cool to see riders finding other lines to avoid the dirty air. MotoGP is perfectly fine the way it is right now imo
But aero in motogp is in it's infancy, every season the racing it's going to be worst. At the moment is manageable and the racimg is still good, but long term they have to ban it
@@mullayho1759so far it’s has not been the case
I heard one of the riders on an interview saying supposedly in 2027 aero will be banned or capped because like you said, the racing in dirty air is making the "racing" part of this sport, trending towards boring and horrendous compared to pre aero wings and winglets.
I like engineering aspects of aero in MotoGP. That said, it is so disconnected from reality that it is hard, for me personally, to relate to it. The only similarity with a regular motorcycle is the fact that it's the same vehicle concept. My personal opinion is, or ban aero completely or let manufacturers do whatever they want.
f1 has this problem to but with bikes yes they really need to use less wings i think yes the bikes will be slower but the racing will be better
Yeah because of this the bikes are much less about feel. First few laps with cold stip GP tires they basically just hang on, once bikes warm it has grip but still isnt good for feel. More aero will make bikes stiffer then add squating suspension and it becomes a fast bike but a ez to wreck bike as well.
How about active aero devices ?
so wings can tilt horizontally depending on lean angle and get straight as bike gets straight. this way we can use both left and right wings and drivers don't have to "block" one side wing in corners.
we could further make it better by giving wings motion in vertical plane as well , so during hard braking they can create lift on front so it doesn't dive under braking and keep rear planted hence we can use rear tyre more during hard braking, evening out the braking forces on both wheels.
regarding wake problem , is this really an issue ? how much of total grip is coming from these aero devices on high speed zones ?
i'm bit skeptical about complains , i don't think aero wake on motogp is as big issues as in F1.....maybe drivers beings drivers and complaining about everything, thats their job to be fair.
Motogp needs to get ahead of this and ban all aero surfaces outright before it starts to look like the f1 hybrid era
If regulations ban wings on bikes innovation will evolve to wings on forearms of riders
or shoulders...
😂
1 major minus point on aero development of MotoGP bikes is the road-going relevance; aero is not relevant to road-legal bikes. Though it is a full-blown prototype series, the technology adopted is more likely to be applied on the road-going products (thank god that the WSB is still not taking this route, for now)
Idk, MotoGP races are still incredibly competitive and Moto2 on the other hand tends not to be as close racing and they don't have any wings at all.
It definitely doesn't help the racing, but motorcycle racing is so much more conducive to close racing compared to cars.
Its not MotoGP themselves that are creating rules to allow teams to put more wings on the bike. The regulations have been stable for some years and teams are just developing.
I sort of get what you mean but the way you said it, comparing to F1 sounds a bit wrong.
I hate aero on bikes and what it gone.
Very very good analysis too, bike aero although isnt great for racing, is very interesting and complex.
There is an aerodynamicist that worked in f1 at Ferrari, then moved to Aprilia, he said motorcycle aero is way more difficult to get right than car aero
I dont really watch moto GP but i watch a lot of car racing and almost every race car now has a lot of wings and downforce even entry level ones i dont see it as a problem but please some one who watches moto gp a lot maybe could give an explanation as to why its bad? and also i must add the ingenuity of these engineers to create downforce on a bike is insane
MotoGP must simply take the brave step in allowing ACTIVE AERO that will come into effect as needed under acc/braking and turning- the inner wings could fold away or angled at a perpendicular to the ground when folded. Same strong electro servos as valve timing systems like VANOS/VTEC could be used...it's about time both MotoGP and F1 allow active aero...next level shxt'...
I personally love them but I understand why it would be better for the racing if removed.
6:10 there was contact between them.
I think they should work with active elements.
I’m glad I have a 2019 bike with just an integrated front aero. These new ones look goofy.
Think it's going in the wrong direction, if they have more problems, then less is more?
Just put air rule of leaving as clean as possible air behind rule. Surely this will bring some serious engineering challenges. And till then racing won't be effected by aeros that much.
No more wings for motorcycles. Let’s go back when we all had fun without those bikes without aerodynamics. I’m not good person to say that because I have one of those
Great video, Yes its getting worse . MotoGP needs to implement an Aero Freeze for 2 years
Me personally, I’m opposed to launch control, anti dive control, traction control basically all electronic nanny controls should be banned. Engine, tires, shocks and rider only.
i hope you get a better mic for your video😀
if you can control air at that speed, you should be flying.
you reduce drag, improve efficiency and expose the sport.
flying bikes are always a show.
It won't get anywhere as bad as F1 given how small bikes are there's far better line options.
Not sure about that, increasing corning performance is critical for bikes. Aero gets exactly as complex as you want it to be. Give engineers a problem like this and it will get wild.
dont compare 2 wheels vs 4wheels your body is moving by corner while f1 is moving by its tires 😂😂😂
Agree the "aero" is getting out of hand, next gen bike gonna have spoiler and drs now what happen to motogp tho
I personally like this era of aero bikes. It's super interesting to see which compromises have to be made because of the swinging of the bike and being an F1 fan I also like the riders having to be more strategic and thoughtful when they attack. It makes it easier to follow the race compared to a series like Moto 3 in which there are 2 overtakes a second, but I can't understand what's going on, who's faster in the group and so on
At the moment is fascinating to see all the records being broken every time these bikes arrive at a circuit, but they are going to have to ban this at some point
I think the aero effect of these tiny wings can't be compared to what F1 does. F1 aero produces so much downforce that they could drive upside down on the ceiling of a tunnel if they wanted to. You're never gonna get that on a moto. Of course relying on aero comes with some downsides when the aero doesn't work as planned. But really they are trying to make the fastest bike they can. Ideally it is faster than the opposition and in that case you'd never have to ride in the dirty air of someone else. The plan is to qualify pole position and then drive away from the rest.
They saw how horrible racing has become in F1, and thought they should have that as well. Geniuses...
A minimum amount of rules is always the best policy. Tons of rules, that's what's ruined F1.
You do not get better racing when everyone goes faster- you simply increase costs to all at the expense of the thrill of competition.
6:38 Sure. if you wanna go fast in the water, you need hydrodynamic. You wanna move fast in the air, you need aerodynamic. That's what nature do.
more F-Duct and body ground diffuser, less winglet on front
Transitional tech. Fads.
Lets all be honnest here, edge of your seat racing is what we want ! 3 or more possibly winners down to the last corner ... IF earo let the first rider take off to be never seen again.. we are definitely on the wrong pad here !!
Funny suspension a-kits and mass/j-dampers that benefit most road riders aint mass produced/marketed...
Entering the FW15 era of MotoGP
Not really. :D Still everything is commanded by rider tho. Just look all that activation levers and switches. Although from technical standpoint i can see your point tho. :D
I think aero isn't something that belongs on bikes and if left unchecked will result in bikes that are cornering at such high speeds that riders will struggle to control them. The whole appeal of bike racing is that it's close racing but putting aero on bikes is making it so they can't follow each other. IMO wrong way to go
3X more injuries... just ban aero altogether.
Ban aero in motogp! This absolutely ruins racing.
motogp needs active aero due to the nature of their physics
The excessive aero is hideous.... I know that much. Wsbk is flat out better at this point. Take hp and lap times out of the equation. The bikes look better and the racing is closer.
Who is gonna come up with drs....
IMHO it´s the wrong path to take. The costs of aero development has skyrocketed and there is greater risk of accidents when riders suddenly lose parts on track.
CEO of michelin tyres and aero marcsmith wants to debate racers and the truth
As an engineer I really do not want to see this banned. This is the fun I get in high end motorsports. F1 is incredibly boring thanks to having such strict standardization and rules which simply smother technical innovation instead of encouraging it.
You wouldn't think that way when you come up to someones ass end and loose all your braking cause your front wings lost the wash. This is dangerously stupid. You can't see the wind when it goes away. This is joke racing.
They should race on naked bikes... with a wind shield.
Racing is not about speed.
As long as they can bring some new ideas that com benefit both performance & racing. That would be fine for them to make this evolution & bring aero to another level. They cannot remove this because it's part of the bikes growth over the years. I hope in the next decade they can figure to do this without affecting the racing. At the moment they are doing a great job.
Make them start in reverse current championship standings order and problem solved.
Clearly MotoGP has learned nothing from F1. I guess the manufacturers see an opportunity to sell silly looking, high margin aero bits to weekend road warriors.
I haven’t watched MotoGP in 20 years and I’m seriously baffled by how stupid these bikes look now.
If anyone would’ve shown me such an design in 2000 I would laughed in their face!
A new problem arises what for they all go a bit quicker so what it does nothing for the racing. F1 cars are seriously affected bu down wind and cross winds. Imagion the number of casualties we are going to have in future. The rule guys have no idea what they have started all to throw more money away to assist Ducati with Audi money.
I dislike this aero, it takes away from 2 wheel racing somehow. Let them shape the lower bodywork as they want with subtle shapes and fences but all these wings sprouting all over the bikes looks grotesque and dangerous.
Mass dampers, ride height, traction control, lean sensors, winglets… it’s a joke.
world super bike champ is where it’s at. motogp is too technical
This is why I watch World Superbike instead
Limiting elements that would create excessive dirty air or make the bike too unstable (especially at high-speed corners) will be enough. Riders will gradually adapt to avoid dirty air like Formula drivers. There are still many chances to overtake because GP bikes are not as wide as cars and have less frontal area. Until MotoGP lap times get close to that of Formula 2 (which is almost 34 seconds faster at Silverstone GP), I don't think they will be too fast.
I don't have to draw my own opinion. Every gp rider says when they get in the wash they can't brake. I'll take their word for it. MotoGP has gone the way of F1 and now have the same problems. Can't follow. If you can't follow, you can't race. And just like in F1, the smartest racing engineers in the world are progressively figuring out how to kill racing.
HEY! THOSE ARE ALL PASSIVE! AEROSYSTEMS WHICH AREN'T INTERACTIVE AEREOSYSTEMS
A Formula 1 engineer once said: If you want to ruin MotoGP, introduce aerodynamics.
Hence, MotoGP nowadays is shit compared to only 6 or 7 years ago.
"The good old days when Marquez was winning all the races or Rossi before him. Wait, the title fight's been brought to the last race for the past two years in a row?? Omg, that's horrible for racing"
@@Ricky911_ Bikes could follow each other closely back then and just can't now.