Why cooking needs divine knowledge
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ย. 2024
- Caroline Roper, Ella Hubber and Tom Lum from the podcast 'Let's Learn Everything!' face a question about clerical cooking.
LATERAL is a weekly podcast about interesting questions and even more interesting answers, hosted by Tom Scott. For business enquiries, contestant appearances or question submissions, visit www.lateralcas...
GUESTS:
Caroline Roper: / carolinethebug
Ella Hubber: / ellahubber
Tom Lum: / tomlumperson
Let's Learn Everything podcast: www.letslearne...
HOST: Tom Scott.
QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe.
RECORDED AT: The Podcast Studios, Dublin.
EDITED BY: Julie Hassett.
GRAPHICS: Chris Hanel at Support Class. Assistant: Dillon Pentz.
MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com).
FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd.
EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
© Pad 26 Limited (www.pad26.com) / Labyrinth Games Ltd. 2023.
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Regarding the cooking podcast idea, the pasta manufacturer Barilla has spotify playlists curated to the specific cook times of their different pasta types
But non the less.. its a great idea
That's incredible. Simple, but incredible nonetheless.
I now have this idea of a TV show where the ad breaks are perfectly timed to make a certain recipe with the actual show taking up the waiting time
Man, I remember my grandmother showing me an old handwritten recipe by her grandmother, laughing her ass off. It said something like "put in the beans, sing the first three verses of 'The huntsman walked in the forest', then remove from heat".
5:43 "It doesn't have to be the Lord's Prayer". First example is the Latin form of the Lord's Prayer.
I know she gives a another example soon after but I found that funny.
yea pater noster are the first two words of the lord's prayer in latin (our father), and i don't remember when they were translated into vernacular languages but adherents may have said most or all of their prayers in latin in medieval times too.
@@alveolate Good point. I don't know when English people first started saying it in English. It would have been in Latin in church until at least the 1530s.
I GOT IT. I GOT IT SO OUT OF LEFT FIELD THO, LOOOOOOOOOOOL
My grandma occasionally did this but with sewing, for some reason? I remember her muttering here and there, it was her way of keeping track how long it'd take her to do something, like get the thread to go through the needle. I think it was a way for her to keep track of how long it'd take her to complete tasks that required fine motor skills.
Did not expect to have a childhood memory unlocked by the Lateral podcast but here we are!! Thank you!!!
Now the "serious" question: did your grandma stash her sewing supplies in a Danish Cookies tin?
Did she sing yan, tan, tethera? That’s a common song for counting stitches.
That "Some reason" is the marketing behind all religions: turn a religion promoting activity into a habit so that the subject normalizes it and never questions it's truthfulness and they keep on spreading the message, like a linguistic and ideological virus.😬
In a few centuries this question might be: Why did someone who was working in medicine in the 21st century also had to be a scholar of 190s Disco music?
OH OH OH Is this about using "Stayin' Alive" to time CPR beats???
80s rock also works.
And Tom Scott will still be presenting
@@MusicBlikThe vinnie jones version is still presented every year as general advise at something I volunteer at. (and 999 is replaced with 112, we are not in the UK after all)
"Pater Noster" is another name for the Lords Prayer. It's the first two words in the latin. The same way "Our Father" is the first two words in english. Many prayers are named by their first couple of words, and when the prayers were in latin...
I wouldn't be surprise that in most latin languages, they made a direct translation from Pater Noster. In French for example, they use the name "notre père" which is a direct translation and the first 2 words of the prayer.
One of my favourite Polish novels, "Antek" by Bolesław Prus (written in 1880 about how hard kids lifes were in XIX century Polish villages under Russian rule), has a part in which the main character's sister is put into a furnace for duration of 3 Hail Marys to 'sweat out the illness'.
Unsurprisingly, the sister burned to death.
Stupid religious practices. What did they expect?
That's exactly why I was screaming "time!!!" during the entire video :D And they say people learn nothing at school...
I've heard that this was actually a proper, working treatment. But it had to be a correct type of furnace - the one bakers use to keep bread warm after baking.
Even more recently than medieval times! My mom grew up in an area with a significant Amish community. Her family wasn't Amish, but she did have a few friends from the community who were and their written family recipes included both conventional time measurements and prayer measurements, because as recently as the 1950s and 60s some of the community didn't even have mechanical clocks of any kind.
Yeah, I'm European and my grandmother used to do this too, she did not even have to be Amish 😄
The Amish are a fascinating bunch. Clocks are too worldly but gas station pizza isn't. I'm not agasint Amish, just jealous when they buy the last slice.
The episodes with this group are definitely my favourite!
21st.C. packet soup directions - 'Bring to boil & sing Bohemian Rhapsody while stirring gently' . . .
#"Is this the real thing? - it looks quite watery - stirred in some Marmite - what will it do to me?"# : )
This is my very very favourite Lateral question of all time!
My mala has 108 beads, and takes me precisely 2.5 minutes to chant fully... but I recall being told "please don't use your mala and a counting device". I'm not sure it's accepted practice to use a mala to time things. There are many different forms of Buddhism, and I'm not even a Buddhist. Perhaps the comments can enlighten.
lol my husband did a hard take on me talking to my iPad telling the answer many time’s loudly. Growing up I had an elderly relative whom sang hims when cocking eggs. I asked how long time it was the egg was cocking but she did not know, it was done when she had sang all the verses
I've heard of using songs for cooking and baking times before, like even specific longer songs meant to time bread baking. It makes sense, since someone could put the bread in the oven, then sing through other chores.
@@myladycasagrande863 and in many cases you was part of a work group meaning you be chanting together.
I think there was a sea shanty that was for the bread cooking. you put the bread in started to sing it leave (minus the fire watcher) do some swabbing or something and when you was done the bread was ready.
*hymns
Wow I called it exactly from the beginning! It was the first time I did that! Awesome!
I remember watching some video on someone trying to rebuild ancient norse medicinal instructions and they would include prayers in them and the person talking about it was explaining that the prayers were markers of time.
This is the plot of a (secondary I think?) quest of the game Kingdom Come Deliverance, where a blacksmith thought that a rival blacksmith(whose tools were said to be more durable) was enchanting his steel while working. Turns out he was just chanting to measure the time he had to heat the metal, or something like that.
This still isn't that unusual an idea... Just look at all those charts explaining what songs to wash your hands to, back at the start of the pandemic...
In Hudson Hawk they timed their capers by classic songs. And for cpr there are well know songs that help people with the tempo
As long as it takes to sing happy birthday. 😊
Or poesje miauw.
"20 seconds?! Ehh, I'll just count it faster"
vs
"I have to sing this song exactly at the right tempo or it wouldn't sound nice"
Chicken correction - poulet (french for chicken) gives us poultry
But do you habitually _eat_ poultry? I've never heard any English speaking person talking about eating poultry (as opposed to mutton, beef, pork), it tends to be chicken, duck, goose.
Maybe the Normands really thought it was so much poor people food that they only organised the farms...
@@AsptuberMaybe the term poultry was applied to all edible birds which the wealthy would have had access to but for poorer people all they had was chicken
FWIW, chicken is poulet, poultry is volaille.
I knew this because it's a plot point in one of my favorite Pratchett books, Nation! One of the main characters learns how to brew beer for the right amount of time by singing certain songs.
Oh my, I got it. When the cookbook got mentioned I remembered that my grandmother would sometimes use "zdrowaśka" as a measure of time (i.e. Hail Mary).
2:07 I was about to hit pause and google "difference between graveyard and cemetary", thankfully I was too slow and Tom provided the followup for me 😃
this was one of the very few times where I knew the foundation of the answer. I assumed knowledge of the bells throughout the day for longer time periods but the short interval prayer intervals was interesting
This is one of those things that I happened to know ahead of time, so it was fun seeing them stumble around the answer.
I used to do a repetitive task where I had to press a button for around 25 seconds. Counting without a watch is surprisingly quite inaccurate. It's difficult to memorize the correct tempo. I would however sing in my head a well-known song, and would get the time measurement more accurate, because i'd sing with a more constant tempo each time.
I knew that in ancient Japan, Katana makers used prayers as well to take count of passed time
This is a really neat fact! Sort of makes me want to incorporate that into some world building now.
So mages in fiction reciting incantations when cooking their potions are actually just counting the time it takes for their potions to be cooked well.
I made this connection too. I guess it could even be inspired by people having real secret recipes with secret words for timing, and how such a thing would get accused of being witchcraft.
Timings are still a measurement
I initially assumed that it was to do with all the various dietary laws and what did and did not count as "fish" for Fridays which sometimes included twisted logic that would have done Terry Jones Sir Bedevere proud. Ducks for example sometimes counted as fish.
(For the record... a paternoster IS the Lord's Prayer. Pater noster = "Our Father...")
I'm a medievalist, so I would have had to recuse myself from this one. It was really amusing to watch her basically drag them kicking and screaming to the answer, though. 😂
I feel so stupid! I read about this somewhere (probably on the Internet tbh) and I still didn't realise until 2:48!
In the Middle Ages they used Christian, Latin prayers as a unit of time for cooking
I remember that a lot of cooks would bless food that was likely to spoil so I was so sure it was about the lack of refrigeration
Tom's idea for a cook-a-long podcast reminds me of the episode 'Tom Scott plus Sorted Food' where he played remote control chef. 👍
two hail marys on the waffle iron has gotta be the funniest phrase I've ever heard
Tasting History with Max Miller taught me this!
It was incredible stuff
I would absolutely listen to a recipe podcast
My mum used to say Hail Marys to say when the egg was done
I got this one about halfway through the video because I do I very similar thing when I make tea, I leave the bag in for the amount of time it takes me to sing the chorus to "jolene" three times
There is already a non-religious version of doing things timed by songs in a movie. Bruce Willis in the movie 'Hudson Hawk' is a thief, recently released from prison, who has every song memorised to the second. (And in the movie it's used to measure the time until the bombs they set will go off)
I need a cooking with Tom Scott and Friends podcast.
The fact that I knew this from that Tumblr medieval eye medicine post.
5:08 Tom remembering his before life as a religious student
2 minutes in and I've already learned something that always confused me: As a german if we eat meat, we eat , I never understood why you guys don't eat or what ever but have a new word for that for each animal, turns out is a simple language thing.
There were so many dietary restrictions! It was far more common than that! Lent fasting for penance.
I can imagine this being true for learning to cook. I'd imagine a professional cook would do everything by habit and smell. Most things have a strong "done" smell.
I rarely ever time anything in the kitchen. If I do it's more in the sense of 40-odd minutes give or take 10. Rice, pasta, veggies I'll just taste
I once read somewhere, that witches spells exist for the same reason, and they used these special sayings to keep others from copying them. As well as giving their ingredients strange names like "eye of newt" or "toe of frog"...
A bit like for some people it's important to count how many instances of the river Mississippi are in the world, for some reason.
I did know this one, saw it on Tumblr. Also a way to test the temperature of an oven - how much of the prayer can you say before you have to snatch your hand out again?
The good thing is that the food already comes blessed
6:23 No wait, seriously, thats actually a really good idea Tom. Make it happen with Adam Ragusea!
Although, I suppose the downside is that if you wanted to cook the same recipe, youd have to listen to the same podcast again. Maybe you could have it so there are podcasts with regular instruction intervals, and the different recipes can slot into those gaps?
Regarding that audio cooking guide that Tom suggested at the end - I haven’t tried it myself, but my understanding is that the Sorted Food Sidekick app has exactly that.
Oh I heard of measuring time in intervalls of certain prayers, songs or rhymes
came up a lot when people were washing their hands to _Happy Birthday_
This reminds me of 2020 when everyone learned to sing Happy Birthday while they washed their hands.
Cooking Podcast. I'm in.
Recently discovered these and absolutely loving them.
I do feel there was a missed opportunity though. Should have been named Co-Lateral and they work as a team with the “weakest” player voted off each week as the collateral.
You should see if Adam Regusea is interested in trying out that podcast idea. Perhaps some special of his podcast or something.
Poultry would be the french equivalent to chicken
Or _fowl_ perhaps?
The Pater Noster IS the Lord's Prayer & according to data from the pandemic to recite the Hail Mary takes 20 seconds which was the time necessary to use hand cleanser. Also, it takes me 20-25 minutes to say a Rosary.
It's a slightly longer version of saying "one hippopotamus, two hippopotamus" for seconds! It does of course rely on you saying the prayer at the accepted speed, but perhaps as long as you weren't being silly, it would be "close enough".
I believe Pratchett referenced this with Nanny Ogg cooking something for 3 verses of "where has all the custard gone".
And we can be thankful she wasn't singing the hedgehog song. :-)
This was a hilarious question, haha wow
That idea... the radio station SWR3 did that.... All listeners prepare one dish together
Have you ever seen the movie Hudson Hawk where the two thieves actions are synchronised by singing a song?
I use lorem ipsum. I burn a lot of dishes.
1:21 Does referring to poultry not count regarding chicken-meat?
Calling it at 3:18 ...
A timer? (Singing hymns to tell time.)
Me in front of the fire I started during the middle ages after stuttering throughout the prayer while cooking
One hail mary for a pancake sounds like you gotta bless the pancake before eating it
This sounds like magic: turn the stove on, and say this spell. That's how they cook at Hogwarts, right?
Sounds similar to my house. Although that’s more when I cook, everyone else prays
@TastingHistory might be able to take you up on the cooking with prayer duration.
Did the episode get pulled from spotify?
haha i got this one immediately
For modern secular folk, the Jeopardy theme is thirty seconds.
Guess at :39
There were some things they weren't allowed to cook with?
On special dates?
✌✌
Huh. Makes utter sense, but I had not guessed it.
I was thinking if you were going to have a bunch of vials and ingredients bubbling in a pot, you'd best be a priest lest people think you a witch.
Tom's only half correct on not using "chicken" for the name of food, we do have the word "poultry". I'll freely admit you don't go for Kentucky Fried Poultry though!
1:40 poultry?
"Cook for 300 Mississippi."
one thing I had seen is a myle wey, the amount of time it takes to walk one mile
I really want the Bob Ross cooking podcast now
I was wondering what is this about, once the word 'time' came along I got it.
Sing "Twilight Cafe" 5 times for perfect pasta. It works! (Sorry, Tom L, you won't know this song, but you should!).😅
Hudson hawk
We are supposed to take the time of two happy birthday to you songs to wash our hands.
As a Catholic, I usually say a Hail Mary in 6 seconds, not 15 😅
omg its the catholic equal to singing happy birthday to know how long to wash your hands thats absolutely insane. Especially since there's *so many other ways to tell an approximate time*
I would have guessed something about cooking being alchemy, and alchemy being religious by way of gnosticism.
This seems like a ridiculous idea but thinking through it further there probably was no standard hour glass you could go to. They had to use something that was universal in the language of the day.
... i'm very much a '"cook it until it's cooked" kind of person.
Chicken was not 'poor' people's food. In medieval times, oysters were cheap, and chicken was expensive - unlike today when the reverse is true.
The time where the words became like that was many centuries latter.
1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi, 3 Mississippi, ...
Ah, yes. See, they didn't know about Mississippi back in the medieval times.
The comment about how chicken is the exception to "meat in French, animal in Saxon" is incorrect: poultry.
except you raise a chicken and also order chicken. 'Poultry' is only used in large and more abstract cases; do you have any poultry on the menu, this farm raises poultry.
Most of the pre twentieth century recipes I’ve seen written have been too simplistic to be useful without considerable assumed knowledge - and even the intelligible ones use sensory cues rather than specific timing.
If you consider that there is no general standardisation of how big a fire, or a pot (not pans, generally) or almost anything else should be, that makes sense…
It is also something of a stretch to suggest that things like the rosary require a student of religion - that should be common knowledge as these are common penance from confession…
I thought for sure this would be somehow related to cleanliness is next to godliness.
So... if you were a fast speaker, would your food always be undercooked? 😅
Pater Noster (lat.) = The Lord‘s Prayer 🤫
Speaking English non-natively, I would have guessed the translation to English was "Our Father" or something like that.
Initial thoughts: if you mean European medieval, because cooking safe food required some education (sanitation, food preservation, nutrition/body knowledge, etc.). Education at the time was strongly linked (reserved?) around religion aka the Church: try having philosophy courses and access to books as a mere peasant.
Also, people would be more likely to trust the Church (and "God") than Joe next door.
It could be as simple as having to wait for a complete prayer said when a dish reached a boil, allowing enough time for the high temperature to kill microbes and make the dish safe.
It could also be because religious persons and enclaves (e.g. monasteries) were isolated/separated from the common populace, avoiding contamination, diseases, and plagues, thus food from them would be much safer than from "infected towns".
Because they would know what food to avoid so you don't end up in hell: like meat on some Friday, or pork, or whatever.
3:05 Is it access to "wealthy" antimicrobial materials like copper and silver as cookware?
Results: I had the right line of thought with the idea of a prayer as a timer, but was too vague about it. Nicer and neater by the intended answer.
there is a theory that humans invented song and poetry specifically to measure time of tasks
The problem with the cooking podcast idea is, how many of us listen on 125% speed or something?
As a non-religious person this sounds like a prank to me. Like, I believe you but I’m also fully expecting you to make fun of me for believing in it and then tell me what the actual true fact is instead of ‘praying to measure time’.