The TRIAL OF SOCRATES - Corruption and Atheism: The Apology by Plato - Harvard Classics Rev- HC2 Ep4
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- The Trial of Socrates is a remarkable story about one man's decision to defy the mob of society and choose truth over unrighteousness. So many lessons can be pulled from the story such as sacrifice, justice, betrayal, and corruption. The simple act of telling the truth can make waves that can last for thousands of years. Socrates was a veteran, a husband, and a father but we know him today as the founder of the Socratic method and one of if not the wisest philosophers to have ever lived. Where are the men like him today? God only knows.
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Excellent job sir. I really enjoyed The Apology and always marvel at how writings so old can seem so fresh and prescient. The more things change the more they stay the same indeed.
I feel the same way. It amazes me how relevant stories and writing 2000+ years old can still be impactful and hold meaning. It like technology advances and changes but the expansion of our minds has honestly not changed that much. We solve external issues quickly but internal ones we still struggle with. Thanks so much for watching and stay blessed my friend!
Something to keep in mind in reading the works of the ancient philosophers is that when they use the word "God" in the singular, it is not necessarily intended to denounce the existence of many Gods, let alone as professing a belief in a single, monotheistic God. Later Christian scholars and writers, especially once Christianity had been firmly established and believed polytheism to be exterminated, they read these text from a monotheistic mindset, and with a firm belief in the "self-evident" superiority of monotheism over polytheism. Basically, they had a preconception which they then applied uncritically to these texts, and thus propagated an image of many ancient philosophers as proto-monotheists. This bias can also filter into how these works were translated, picking and choosing terms in the translated language (whether consciously or unconsciously) that reinforced these preconceptions.
In reality, when the word "God" is used in the singular without referring to a specific God, it is typically meant as a collective singular. Think of expressions like "Man discovering fire", where the word "Man" is used in the singular, but denotes the totality of humankind. Just so could Ancient Greeks use "God" to mean the totality of the Gods.
Regarding the charges of atheism and not acknowledging the Gods recognised by the state, this too is often interpreted as Sokrates being an atheist or proto-monotheist. These charges, however, accuse Sokrates of betraying his country. The main Gods of the polis, the specific customs and traditions of their cultus, etc. were inextricably tied with the polis as a whole. Regardless of ones belief in the existence of the Gods, by not participating in the traditions of the polis you are putting yourself outside of the polis. Turning your back on ones country and your ancestors. Endangering the social cohesion and good fortune of the community. And, combined with the charge of corrupting the youth, it implies that Sokrates was getting young men to similarly abandon their country and community.
As a sidenote, Christians, too, would later be viewed as atheists by many polytheistic societies, since they denounced the Gods and traditions of their ancestors.
I wanted to make these notes, because this is important information to keep in mind when reading the Apology and other writings of ancient philosophers.
As a disclaimer, I am not saying the charges against Sokrates were thus justified in any way, or that the trial wasn't a politically motivated trial to try and get rid of him. Which it did. Just that there is some important background info needed to actually understand properly what Sokrates was actually accused of.
Going to save this comment and keep it in my back pocket. I truly appreciate you sharing your thoughts and ideas as this help me learn more and form new takeaways from what I read. This is awesome and what it is all about! Thanks for taking the time to share. Have a blessed weekend my friend!
If the copy of "The Ten Commandants" I read was accurate, then the Bible implies god allows many gods exist as in: "Thou shall have no other gods before me." This "order from headquarters" is elaborated on as the #1 sin (being the first mentioned). Other gods are "ok" if they don't get in My way. To be a convert, you must worship Me above those other gods. If you don't, I will torture you for eternity. This is "God's love" in action? He demands by threatening the worst punishment He can conceive. But, is it the worst, if death is real and eternal life is a lie? If death, as in non-existence, is as real as what came before your egg & sperm united, your non-existence goes back infinitely, as it will again, at death. Only life is existence, meaningful, has value, by the fact that it is temporary. It follows that all you have is your life, and If you trade, renounce, sacrifice, your judgement to another, you throw away your greatest value, -- yourself. Fear is a possible excuse, but don't let it guide, control your life. Why? That would be "no life at all", no life worth living.
@@The_Cause ...in your back pocket? How ya gonna hold your pants up? Maybe have the girls do a calligraphy or embroidery, frame it like officially art, like real expensive art, hang it for sale in city hall.
Thank you. I love this 9:30
"It doesn't matter about death, you shouldn't be scared about death if it's somthing that's righteous that you should do should be doing. There are a few times in life when you get the chance to be unashamedly brave, when you realize that the decision to be honest and truthful in the face of death, allows you to die with an honor, that not many people in life are given the opportunity to experience."
I have a hard time accepting my death and I found that one powerful.
Have a nice day !
I think we all deep down fear death as most of us fear what is unknown. Having the right mindset going into the unknown is what Socrates seems to point out as important. I liked that section of the books as well. Thanks so much for watching and I hope you have a blessed weekend as well!
I'm just beginning my reading and discovery of the Apologia. This was a great introduction. You've given me good grounding to know what I'll get from this work and I appreciate your thoughts.
Glad to hear! It is a foundational work in my opinion. So many other works in philosophy and western literature reference or expect you to know of the apology of Socrates and what he died for. I’m sure you will come away with your own ideas after finishing it as these books will definitely expand your view on things. It feed for me at least. Thanks so much for watching and stay blessed!
These are books that should be read more than once
Yes indeed! At different points in life as well. I have noticed what I read at the age of 20 contains a completely different meaning when read again at 35.
Completely recognise your point about how we’ve come so far technologically but, from a psychological perspective, we are exactly where we are 2,500 years ago. We might know more about the brain, development, behavioural psychology but we still struggle with really simple concepts like logic, reason, morality, virtues, etc. Maybe we need a Surak (for any Star Trek fans out there)
Yes indeed. I have been thinking a lot about this as I read through these old books. We are literally still facing the same internal issues they faced. The external world has changed completely but internally not much has progressed. I see some progression but not to keep up with the pace the external world has progressed. Thanks so much for watching my friend!
Hope you enjoyed this episode! What are your thoughts on the trial of Socrates?
This story, and the Crito, always makes me think about dying - Because Socrates could have chosen to live I think, but he deliberately provokes the jurors and argues in a way that annoys them, and then refuses to escape. Socrates lets himself be killed, almost like suicide maybe.
It always made me wonder - If one could go back in time and convince Socrates to save himself, would you do it? I think maybe, that by dying, Socrates did a lot more for us than he would have for living for a few more years.
I first read The Apology in Psychology 101. It never gets old and I learn something each time I review it. I think that is the litmus test for great literature: it speaks different truths when read through more experienced eyes.
I enjoyed it! I have not yet read it, but I listened to a reading of it. (Not the same, as far as I am concerned.)
You are doing important work here. Keep it up.
Great overview of The Apology. I highly recommend everyone read it. Due to your videos I have been looking for my own set of Harvard Classics.
That’s awesome! I hope you find a set! It took me awhile to finally find a set for a decent price. Truly appreciate you watching and have a blessed new year!
@@The_Cause in the mean time, I downloaded the Kindle Harvard Classics Reader's Guide to a Liberal Education which links to each volume via the Internet Archive. The AI-generated audio is trash so I’ll appreciate the hardcopy books even more.
Rob, I’ve really been enjoying your videos having discovered them a few weeks back. Keep up the great work and all the best for a Happy New Year!
Truly appreciate hearing that Mark! I am really enjoying this series and looking forward to making the rest of them. Have a blessed new year as well!
The treasure I found this week, that specific Cliffs Notes (pub 1975) w/ bookmark from a book fair activity dated 1980. (That's more fun stuff just for me, dates BMC era before married w/children) I've found in past studies ...
an earlier pub date meant a type of outline with excellent thought provoking questions designed to help inspire students "want to" actually read the assigned book. Both the book & study guide went together, a kind of one-on-one growth and learning experience.
Keep slinging them out Rob!
The amazing thing is, the court didn't want to kill him. They expected him to confess, apologise, and then they expected to exile him. But Socrates wouldn't do it and forced the court to sentence him to death.
Good point. I was thinking the other day after reading more into "democracies" that he was killed by a majority vote. Another good point to consider that Plato may have been trying to convey. Thanks so much for watching and sharing my friend!
Two books I would recommend for examination and plato would be Fr. Timothy Gallaghers, the Examen prayer, and Dr. Peter Kreefts philosophy 101.
I’m def going to have to look into those. Did you read these in school or something?
Brilliant observations. Thank you.
Appreciate the kind words brother!
To get a full analysis of what Socrates probably meant by the youth being corrupted, read, Ayn Rand's, "The Comprachicos". It's still going on today, everywhere and it's horrible.
Thanks so much for the recommendation. I read The Fountainhead about 7 years ago and although it took forever to make it through I really appreciated her style of writing. Hopefully The Comprachicos is shorter! Lol I will definitely check it out though. Thanks so much for watching and stay blessed my friend!
Excellent video! In the Apology, Socrates treats the entire judicial proceedings with contempt, ridicules the jurors, and proposes a penalty that the jurors cannot accept. He seems to seek death, or at least he does nothing to avoid it. In some of Plato's other dialogues, Socrates speaks of life as a hindrance to his pursuit of truth. He speaks of life as a disease for which he eagerly awaits the cure - death. Sometimes I think he is sick and deranged. Sometimes I think he is one of the most virtuous men in history.
At 5:55, I think that the quote should end with "...knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing." I think the quote means that human wisdom is nothing compared to God's wisdom.
My favorite quote is the following: "I have seen men of reputation, when they have been condemned, behaving in the strangest manner: they seemed to fancy that they were going to suffer something dreadful if they died, and that they could be immortal if you only allowed them to live; and I think that they were a dishonor to the State, and that any stranger coming in would say of them that the most eminent men of Athens, to whom the Athenians themselves give honor and command, are no better than women. And I say that these things ought not to be done by those of us who are of reputation; and if they are done, you ought not to permit them; you ought rather to show that you are more inclined to condemn, not the man who is quiet, but the man who gets up a doleful scene, and makes the city ridiculous."
Man I love these posts! I get a lot of insight from them and I love the difference in perspective and seeing what stuck out to you! Thanks again for watching and I hope you are enjoying the readings!
@@The_Cause Likewise. See you in the next video.
@@nickkrupa3818 Yes indeed!
Very interesting, awesome work
Truly appreciate it brother! Means a lot!
Thank you for your commentary on this, I really enjoyed it.
I agree the Apology is a masterpiece but regarding the trial, we do need to remember the larger context here... Socrates had made the mistake of, if not obviously supporting Critias, at least of failing to resist his rather bloody tyranny in any way when others had taken the risk and resisted. Critias was a former pupil who, along with the rest of the 30 tyrants, presided over an honest-to-goodness reign of terror (Critias has been described as "the first Robespierre"). During the tyranny, Socrates's personal conduct was _very_ weaksauce. He knew the reign of terror was wrong but did and said nothing against it, even going so far as to simply go home when ordered to take part in an unjust arrest, rather than trying to get word to the victim to flee.
But of course the more violent Critias and the 30 became, the stronger the resistance became and eventually the tyrants were overthrown. Once it was all over and democracy restored, it was forbidden to put anyone on trial (other than the 30 tyrants themselves) for prior shady political connections and this would include Socrates.
So, yeah, the citizenry brought trumped-up BS charges against Socrates but the underlying beef they had with him was very, very real.
PS: Do I think Socrates deserved the death penalty for his weakness? No, I don't. And I don't think the majority of Athenians did, either. That was the danger of the charges brought against him. They probably expected him to put on a better defense, especially in the sentencing phase, and end up in exile instead of execution - but Socrates didn't want to let them get away with that. He was basically saying, "if you bring BS charges, I'll make sure you're going to have the BS outcome they imply."
I think what you bring up here, at least from my point of view, is that it is hard to understand these books fully, unless you understand the history and times surrounding them. The more I learn, and the more people like you chime in, the more the story starts to piece itself together. The problem now days is when we studied Greek culture in school we read some Mythology, watched the Disney Hercules and moved on to the next subject. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. This helped me understand these dialogues better!
14:00 "the unexamined life is not worth living"
this could be looked at from multiple perspective and you give a holistic pov,
now we could also look at it from a more individual pov, if we examine our life, frame by frame (like how anime are made), we may see its not worth living as some may be abusive to others or even family members but treat outsiders good, they may rip other people off and the likes..
I can see that. I think there are always exceptions to the vast majority of cases. Often times I try to generalize and then I will focus on the outlier where the focus should not be at all. In general I think a constant examination of life can be simply described as meditation or prayer time. But I agree, it is hard for someone who has been trafficked and abused to examine the situation they are in if there is no escaping the situation. Sad situation and all to common in this life.
@@The_Cause definitely
My god that AI art at 2:13 is horrifying
Easy my friend! Who has that much animosity at 2:13am? Haha It’s all good. I am not a fan of it myself. Going to update these thumbnails one day when I have some time. Truly appreciate the feedback though. Honestly do. Have a blessed week buddy!
@@The_CauseI love your content, please don't use AI art. It's a blemish on the video's.
I'd say modern day Socrates (speaking the truth openly, urging others to think for them, would be Andre tate, I'm not a crazy fan of him but I do respect him for those things
Exactly. I feel anyone who has been “canceled” kind of fits the modern day version. Jordan Peterson, Rogan and others.
@@The_Cause mhm true
#11:55 not sure if you know but the Islamic Prophet Muhammad ﷺ had these same things where the state wanted him to keep quiet and even offer him wealth, kingdom, woman and everything a man could desire yet refuse
I am not real familiar with Islam but later in the Harvard Classics series the Quran is introduced so looking forward to learning more about that.
@@The_Cause ooh interesting, looking forward to it
Hey Jack, noticed Cheap Seats doesn't have a "heart" either. What's up?!? You're usually fair to everybody 😅 hope that means business is good !!!
Hearts are in short supply these days. We traded them in for emotions a few years back. That’s what I was told anyway. Thanks for watching!
Q: what happens to all the highlighted comments when we sleep ?!?
Not sure. I don’t know if I have even highlighted any.
@@The_Cause You got this one...
We will have to keep an eye on it, see what happens...
I think it's called science. April subscription ' d me and science mag OYLA. Guess I'm studying that this semester. Kinda exciting, looking forward to it 😉