Was Future Trunks ACTUALLY Stronger Than Vegeta In The Cell Saga?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- Was Future Trunks ACTUALLY Stronger Than Vegeta In The Cell Saga? @LSMMIKE discusses that in this Dragon Ball Z video featuring the Dragon Ball anime and manga.
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Interestingly enough, both Cell and Future Trunks did hypothesize that Vegeta was aware of the grade 3 form and its limitations. So, it is entirely possible that Vegeta could transform into super saiyan grade 3 too, but chose not to because the detriments far outweigh any benefits. After all Future Trunks in super saiyan grade 3 showed far more power than Vegeta at super saiyan grade 2, but when Cell realized the weakness of the form that Future Trunks used, Future Trunks actually did worse against Cell than Vegeta did. Vegeta was clearly a better fighter than Future Trunks, but it is possible that they were at the same level of power.
Only because he lost the speed advantage Vegeta had
I'm positive vegeta had grade 3. Remember trunks said vegeta was standing on the same spot for days. Then he achieved it.
Refer to gohan and goku. Goku literally sat for days and all of a sudden went through the levels.
@@Jiron127 yeah I agree, but didn’t use to for the same reason as he didn’t use SSJ3 because how useless it was
It's possible, but the bottom line is that there is no confirmation from Vegeta that he ever had G3. The only thing the manga ever states is that Vegeta opted not to push for the form. Ppl tend to read nonexistent evidence like this into the situation because the very real possibility of Vegeta being the weakest SSJ in the Cell Arc is not something they want to consider or even accept.
@@decepticonxhunter4850 When Cell said "Even Vegeta knew this", that was the confirmation that Vegeta also had the form, but knew not to use it. I argue that Trunks performed better as Super Trunks than Vegeta did against Perfect Cell. He had more of a back and forth fight against Cell before Vegeta left and he transformed into Ultra Trunks grade 3. It's pretty much confirmed Trunks was holding back and selling "trying hard" to get Vegeta to safety. Don't forget Half Breeds have greater potential. The only person who didn't achieve grade 3 is Gohan, because he actually achieved SSJ2, which was the best form to have at that time.
I always imagined it like a set of sliders you have, one saying power the other saying speed and you can ramp up the power one but if you bring it beyond a point it starts brining down your speed, like you are literally drawing this power from your speed stat.
He was, but with one caveat: the initial level beyond Super Saiyan sacrificed speed for power. Vegeta and Goku were aware of this weakness and that was why they chose not to transform into that. Trunks found out the hard way when he confronted Cell and couldn't land a single blow. At the beginning of the Goku Black arc of Dragon Ball Super, Future Trunks deliberately transforms into it to trick Vegeta into attacking first ("Don't you dare tell me you're relying on THAT form!")
He landed several blows, and Vegeta only landed a hit on Cell when he sat there and allowed him to kick him, this is paramount as Vegeta was less bulked than Trunks, but Vegeta couldnt even keep Cell within his view and keep up with him nor could he move fast enough to hit him if Cell didnt want him to, unlike Trunks still keeping up with Cell and able to track his movements, Cell called Vegeta a weakling, not Trunks, Trunks is the first one that started landing hits, only later on after Trunks over bulked did he get too slow to hit Cell
@@gangstagummybear3432 Vegeta exhausted Perfect Cell, more than it appears, in their fight, as Piccolo's regeneration takes a lot of stamina and energy to use. So Trunks was fighting Perfect Cell in a weakened state.
Evidence: Goku's Instant Transmission Kamehameha Wave did about the same amount of damage as Vegeta. Destroying a large part of Cell's core.
I don't really know what to think. You pointed out the things that make it seem like vegeta is stronger than trunks, but the point that confuses me is how could krillin sense power in trunks but not sense it in vegeta ???
Man, I discovered your channel a few days ago and you are literally answering all of the questions I had as a kid watching DBZ. Awesome content!
If you watched the show you would know all of this honestly
@@Marcus_shawn Bro, you are absolutely full of it. There are so many plot holes and questions in DBZ that it's insane.
@@Marcus_shawn that's not how that works. You can watch a show multiple times and not realize a certain something happened or whatever it may be. We're humans. Not some robots that can analyze every last detail.
Please educate yourself because I am sick of arguing that Trunks and Goku both could not beat Cell.
Vegeta had Grade 3. He just didn't use it because he knew of its issues lol
Why he is the smarter Trainer
he didn't he just wasn't stupid enough to try because of his current knowledge he knew that this is the strongest he could go without losing too much speed and stamina.
Trunks was stupid enough to try it because he only cared about power not other factors such as speed, stamina issues and energy utilization.
Lmao fr Trunks even states himself that Vegeta knew about it but knew of its weakness
Yea Trunks thought he was stronger because he went grade 3 but Vegeta could do it but never messed with it Vegeta knew it's flaws
@nightowl316 I wouldn't even call Trunks stupid to try out the Grade 3 transformation. He was naive and desperate to prevent the present from becoming like the hell that he came from in his own timeline.
Cell: "How are you this strong!?"
Vegeta: "I trained all day, yesterday."
“Bitch im adorable”
Push ups or sit ups and drink plenty of juice
Remember 😂😅
I do a lot of push-ups and I drink plenty of juice.
Force = Mass x Acceleration. Yes. If they're twice as heavy, their acceleration is cut in half, using the same force to propel themselves. Now, because of how the power system works, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be half as fast, because they can just put more ki into their movement, burning through their reserves more quickly. Mathematically, between either stamina consumption or speed, doubling their weight does in fact make them half as good at simply moving around. It doesn't matter how fast they get or how much they improve their stamina, this will simply be true always.
Glad you said this! This is also seen often enough in combat sports where competitors move up in weight class. No matter what there will be some loss in speed
I think they were even. However, Vegeta is the more seasoned, better fighter. You could give the edge to him.
I think if they actually worked together in the Time Chamber, they would've become stronger.
Vegeta was stronger
Their strengths as individuals served to be the other’s weaknesses.
Vegeta is the best tactician of all the Saiyans, as confirmed by King Yemma. His ego however is what leads to his undoing-if he fell back to his tactics instead of being blindsided by pride he’d be better. Trunks does not have this drawback, and he goes for the kill instead of trying to “test himself” unnecessarily.
On the other hand, Trunks is emotional, and does not always think through situations completely. While him powering up in an attempt to overwhelm Cell with power was noble, it was also an emotional response because he rushed in blindly only to get his ass kicked-a result of not knowing what exactly the form he took is truly capable of.
Vegeta, while arrogant, at the same time at least tests the waters to gauge what exactly his opponent is capable of. That’s why he realized that the Grade 3 form was useless against Cell in this state.
I really like how the Z fighters refer to Cell as an it and not a he. Really makes Cell feel all the more inhuman
Bro that’s just the z fighter using proper pronouns. 😂
⚡️The 1st Manga of Cell that came out in Japan back then, the title of that manga book is called “it”
Cell confirmed that Vegeta couldve used grade 3 but wasnt dumb enough to use it
And as we've seen today, that threshold is vast
@@tweso1499 So why don't you come on down here, stop using that useless form, and quit wasting everyone's time.
WRONG Vegeta goes Grade 3 too ! just like Trunks😉
He is just not stronger than trunks though...cell fought both guys and wanted to fight trunks again and couldn't care less about Vegeta
The Cell saga is so goated man. Truly isn't appreciated enough.
No he dead wasn’t stronger…multiple points of proof
Great video as always. I remember how hyped I was seeing Super Trunks...only to learn how useless the form was lol.
All the power but none of the speed
I hate this inconsistency. Like broly is build like a freight train at his skinniest. But he doesn't have that issue.
@@Lynnfield3440 Yeah, I thought that was odd as well. Broly is way bigger and yet his speed is perfectly fine.
I'm guessing Broly is use to being muscle bound in terms of size. It sorta like training in gravity for him except he adapt at being muscle bound
Broly is a lot taller
It not that exactly. The legendary super saiyan form is a natural genetic mutation that Broly has. Its a natural PART of his power so it doesn’t share the same drawbacks as grade 3.
@@jordanwoodle8040 that doesn’t apply cuz broly is legit 7ft in his base form..he was born built and naturally taller then piccolo…but soon as he goes legendary he literally become 9ft’10 i wish i was joking..
Besides vegeta quickly realized he must have studied how to use his size strength an power.. An his dad paragus said as much to frieza even tho the emperor didn’t take it seriously..
Answer: Broly can't turn into the Ozaru Form, even when he has a tail. He loses his mind because he isn't a natural-born elite Saiyan, so he can't fully control himself, like Vegeta could.
The only other genetic anomaly we see is Gohan, who is the ONLY Half-Saiyan that was born with a Tail. Coincidentally, he also has emotional instability and eventually unlocks a Mythical Form.
Grade 2 is my favorite transformation. It would have been dope to see them master this form and go from there, instead base super saiyan. If I recall correctly, grade 2 doesn't really have drawbacks, it's grade 3 that was the issue.
Grade 2 just wasn't as strong as Grade 4 which also consumed less energy
Anyone notice the similarities between the numbered ssj forms and the ssj grade forms ( like how the 2nd form doesn't really have problems but the 3rd form has massive flaws )
@@tobin2.0 there’s no such thing as grade 4, it’s just regular ssj that one conditions there body to over a long period of time so that they dont run out of stamina too quickly.
The reason why goku got a lot stronger than vegeta and trunks is because he trains more effectively and he trained with Gohan. Those two factors allowed him to increase his base power more quickly than either of them.
Mastered Grade 2 would probably be slightly stronger than mss(mastered super saiyan), but still wouldn’t last long in a drawn out fight. Grade 2 looks like it requires a lot of energy to keep the muscles bulky. Relaxing too much would probably force the user to go back down to ss.
@@imjustadog1897 In the anime it looks like Future Trunks has mastered it to the point that he can apply that bulky grade 3 transformation while in ssj 2.. we see it plainly when he spars with vegeta in the Black Zamasu Arc
he transforms
into Super saiyan 2 then bulks up On top of that.. which was possible but never done before!? like who else has tried to turn ssj2 with a grade 3 power up on top of that..
Vegeta sees then an says “you disappoint me” but remarks that it was only a scheme to draw him in close..but vegeta transforms into blue.. proceeds to lay waste to him with utter ease.
What i wonder is why didnt Trunks go for a ki blast attack when he increased his power that much but was to slow to hit him with his fists. Looking at Vegeta's final flash in a weaker SSJ grade form showed that ki blasts are effective.
I've thought that might've been a solid strategy to try to use his strength against Cell.
I agree. Even more so, if vegeta could ssj grade 3, why didn't he do that with final flash?
Trunks I guess could understand that cell maybe wouldn't fall for the same trick twice and cell seemed afraid enough at the end of vegetas final flash attack that I don't think he would try tanking a blast again.
The only reason why Vegeta hit Cell with that Final Flash is because Cell was totally confident that Vegeta wasn't a real threat to him, so he didn't bother dodging. I doubt Cell would've gave Trunks the same opportunity.
Yeah Cell wasn’t letting that shyt happen lol
@@danielsilva-ds2u he probably did for a split second because I noticed his muscles extracting when releasing the final flash. But I could be wrong ofc
There really isn't evidence in either direction. It was said that Trunks was specifically keeping his power lower than Vegeta's for the purpose of letting Vegeta think he was stronger. This could just have been hiding grade 3, or it could have keeping his base power lower too. If we look at feats, Vegeta outsped Trunks and actually inflicted damage on Cell with Final Flash, but Trunks seemed to do more damage in the scuffle between Trunks and Vegeta with his blast.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter though. They're so close in power that there really isn't a functional difference, but it's clear that Vegeta is a better fighter and Trunks doesn't know how to use his power as well. And I think that's more important. What matters more, a small difference in power or the experience to utilize that power?
EDIT: So many people in the comments just repeating "Vegeta could have gone grade 3," and "Grade 3 sucks." That's not the point though. It's about whether Trunks in grade 2 was stronger than Vegeta in grade 2.
Theory: Vegeta is much better at the Earthling technique of "hiding and sensing energy", so Trunks and Krillin can't tell that he has reserves.
Evidence: Vegeta spent the entire Frieza Arc using the technique, on an actual battlefield with both Scouter tech and Earthlings.
Trunks only ever fought the Androids, who can't sense energy anyways, so there would be no reason for him to learn that technique. Gohan barely taught Trunks anything resembling martial arts and probably just left him alone, like Piccolo did to him.
He wasn't that why he went grade 3 because he couldn't see limitations
Maybe grade 3 COULD be useful during a stationary move like the Kamehameha, Destructo Disc, or Final Flash. Or imagine if one of the Saiyans learned the Tri-Beam from Tien and used it in Grade 3?
It's not about power, it is about stamina. If you use a Death Ball style attack, then it is fine, as your attack is fully formed and does not require a constant stream. Same with Destructo Disc.
However, a Formless attack like the Kamehameha, requires vast amounts of stamina, as the constant stream will makeup for the lack of impact, that the Formed attacks specialize in.
TLDR: Any form of resistance will decrease the amount of advantage that the Grade 3 Form gave you. The longer the interaction, the greater you move to a disadvantageous position.
@@douglascramer1501 that's a great point!
Fun fact: in supersonic warriors 2 for the DS, ssj trunks' final attack is a Phoenix buster in his ssj grade 3 form. Seems like it would be useful if you could somehow restrain your opponent (maybe with a burning attacks as thats its effect in the game) use to power boost as a final attack
Supersonic Warriors 2 is friggin GOATed! For my personal taste, I actually think ArkSys did a better job on that than FighterZ, but I know that's a hot take. I just don't think a grounded fighting game properly captures what fights are like DBZ.
I think Trunks probably has about as much as hidden anger potential as Gohan does, by virtue of him surpassing his father with a new form just like Gohan did for his. Trunks just wasn't trained properly, due to Vegeta's overly strict loveless methods generally always being fundamentally flawed, and wanting to maintain continued dominance over his son the same as everyone else
Argument: Gohan is a genetic anomaly, being the only Half Saiyan that was born with a Saiyan Tail. This is why his power is so unique and he eventually gains access to the "Ultimate Form" which has no limits, letting him increase his power, without having to create a new transformation.
Trunks is the first ELITE Half Saiyan, so he has a better foundation than Gohan did. Just like Vegeta did vs Goku. Without outside influence, Trunks would always be stronger than any other Saiyan, including Gohan.
Evidence: Goku trained with Multiple Gods, learning strange techniques, to increase his power, or exaggerated training through the use of technology:
1. Kame and King Kai
2. Gravity Machine and Hyperbolic Time Chamber
Without the Elder Kai, or other strange techniques taught to Gohan, he would never surpass Trunks. Unless you include his genetic anomaly of being born with a Tail, in the explanation.
it reminds me of Freiza's 100 percent form where he bulked up but started to plateau then dip on power on namek
Frieza's power didn't really dip on Namek. Goku's power continued to climb after the transformation, Frieza's attack pattern became more predictable and desperate, and all the crit hits that Goku landed were starting to add up.
Vegeta probably already noticed the problems with grade 2. Pushing further to grade 3 would be worse, so he tried to master grade 2. That's what I always thought.
I agree. I always thought that Grade 2 was a Failed Form of SSJ 2 and, as such, was unstable. All of the Saiyans learned how to create this False Form in their training, however, Trunks was the only one that was stupid enough to exaggerate the Failed Form to sharply increase its strengths, without realizing that he also exaggerated its weaknesses.
Vegeta realized that the form has weaknesses and compensated with an increased usage of Ki to make up for his reduction in speed. Only, this will exhaust him faster and reduce the time that he can fight at maximum strength.
In a fight against a being that can regenerate, or has a strong constitution, it would be pathetic to try and engage in a life and death battle with them, versus a Martial Arts fight, where such a tactic could be considered smart.
Writing this before watching the video.
Was Future Trunks stronger than Vegeta in the Cell Saga? Yes, but with an asterisk.
In terms of pure power, Trunks did get stronger than Vegeta. The biggest issue was, Trunks was never formally taught by a Saiyan who could see the levels beyond the base Super Saiyan 1, so when he started training with Vegeta, he thought pure power was everything. Thus, upping his strength and damage output was everything to him, whereas Vegeta had been fighting all his life, and had heard about the legendary Super Saiyan and all of the legends. He was aware of the problems of a big bulky form over his years of fighting multiple enemies, and thus, likely avoided Grade 3 as it would have lost him too much speed and maneuverability. Trunks fought for survival for far too long, while Vegeta fought as a job, and thus the gap in their experience levels was far too great for Trunks to see the downfalls.
Interestingly enough though, if not for Trunks' Daddy issues, he probably would have killed Semi-Perfect Cell on the spot, or as soon as possible. Considering 17 doesn't do anything interesting for the rest of Z(and even GT's Super Android 17 is kind of meh), their world would likely have been better off.
Yeah, Like Some People Say
If Krillin Could Tell That Trunks Was Hiding Grade 3, Why Didint He Said The Same About Vegeta If He Really Had It?
Hell no. Trunks just showed more powered because he thought he could beat Cell with it. Vegeta already knew wat was up and in a h2h against Trunks, woulda kicked his ass im sure lol
I say no
Honestly Vegeta acknowledging Trunks as even close to his power speaks volumes of his actual pride in his son. I believe that Vegeta was slightly stronger overall, and even if Grade 3 Trunks was stronger than Grade 3 Vegeta (maybe hybrid Saiyans would make Grade 3's multiplier different), the drawbacks would be far too great as well and Vegeta would win regardless. Vegeta admitting Trunks is in his league is actually quite a compliment to Trunks for how Vegeta is in general. Vegeta does respect others power very rarely in the earlier arcs. He does let Cell and Frieza get the upper hand, but he doesn't necessarily respect their power in his early days, just getting mad at it since they do surpass him and wreck him. He does dislike Goku as well, but after getting beaten by Goku he doesn't disrespect his power, more Goku's attitude. The fact he wants a rematch so badly he becomes a Majin speaks volumes. So admitting Trunks is near him in strength despite not training with him directly shows his own form of acknowledgement towards his son. He may never have admitted it if Trunks did surpass him slightly, but admitting that he was that close in power at all is definitely something to consider, even if it was to torment Cell for sucking in combat.
Why didn’t Vegeta and Trunks continue to at least use grade 2 after this? It didn’t seem to have the downsides of grade 3, and I don’t think it drains too much energy as Vegeta probably wouldn’t have even bothered using it against cell in the first place
They were probably trying to attain MSSJ and maybe to a slight extent did but as far as the anime goes it looks to me like they're in grade 2, at least Trunks
@@Valientlink I’ve always assumed they were in grade 2 during the cell games, but I don’t know if it’s ever been confirmed or denied. Too me the hair looks spikier and they seem more bulky than regular ssj
@@reeces3943 nah vegeta was in grade 2 trunks used grades 1 & 3..
unfortunately i don’t believe he mastered 2 as much as he should have!
@Reece's they was in grade 2
@@Valientlink That's not the case, as it was a total surprise to Vegeta that something like that was even possible. His inferiority complex creeping back up when Goku powered up showed that he never once thought of mastering the SSJ to the degree that Goku and Gohan did. That was something Goku thought of while inside the SATR. Vegeta and Trunks were just focused on getting more power.
Anyone else notice how similar the numbered ssj forms and the ssj grade forms are ( example: the 2nd form doesn't have any issues whereas the 3rd form has massive issues )
Can we give credit to dr gero for making scouter tech better than frieza's army as well? The fact that he didn't take over the world initially with the red ribbon army is just a matter of unlucky timing, like dang an alien monkey boy came to ruin your aspirations... who woulda thought that could happen
I say Trunks was stronger in all forms. Remember, he is a mixed breed, and it is canon that they have greater potential than full blood Saiyans. As Super Trunks, Grade 2, at least in the anime, he was actually exchanging with Cell and Blocking some attacks. He even knocked Perfect Cell around a little. Super Vegeta couldn't do that at all. Trunks didn't power up to Ultra Trunks, grade 3, until Krillin took Vegeta away. But yes, at least based on the anime, he performed better against Cell than Vegeta did as Grade 2 SSJ. Even in the manga, when cell is "beating him up" we are supposed to understand, Trunks was trying to sell that he was "trying", but he was actually not even fighting the best he could as a Grade 2 SSJ. Then this was exposed to us when Cell said he knew Trunks was trying to keep Vegeta safe.
Vegeta and Trunks didn't work together. Had Trunks been able to fight Vegeta Vegeta could have showed Trunks it weakness. Goku figured out to stay in form because him and Gohan worked together. Had Vegeta and trunks work together. One of them may would have went level two
That's dumb that cell got censored. Dragon Ball ain't kid friendly and shouldn't be censored just to make it appear kid friendly lol.
Super Saiyan Grade 3 serves the same purpose as SSJ3: Its a one-shot kill form. You use it to amp your power as high as you can then throw your strongest blast/punch to kill the opponent in one shot. If they can't stand up to you, gucci! If they can... then ur in trouble... for different reasons, obviously. SSJ3's power drain is NUTS and SSJ grade 3 is just too slow to be worth it.
I would say trunks was stronger because he had the physical and mental power while vegeta made a small brain decision and only had physical power.
A couple of things that I think could support the possibility of Trunks being stronger (even if just a little) are 1)Trunks not actually being hurt by Cell (even after letting him get free shots in while waiting for Vegeta to be gone). Vegeta arguably could have been fatigued from kicking Cell's ass before his final transformation - but Trunks also fought him for awhile.
2) Krillin seemed to think Trunks was stronger, and he can sense power levels.
actually, maybe 3) Perfect Cell had no interest in Vegeta, but still wanted to fight Trunks in a rematch.
Hard to know, though.
I think it was intentional to have the contrast of Trunks finding out the hard way that his USSJ form was a hinderance - even though his father may have know, but didn't bother to tell him - vs Goku teaching Gohan about it in training. I really don't like the retcon that Vegeta trained Trunks, when, to my knowledge, he left him to fend for himself in the chamber.
Ikr talk ab training together they might as well have went alone or trunks try and train with piccolo or something
@@westonnwaimo4002 man, I've had a convo on here before about Trunks training with Piccolo, and it pisses me off that it didn't happen 😑. Gohan could've still been the one to beat Cell - Trunks could've trained with Piccolo the second time he went in.
Also, in Super they fumbled then with Trunks's training also (among many other problems with the writing). Why didn't they do the SSG ritual with Trunks, have Trunks go into the chamber to train, and then have Elder Kai unlock his potential? Instead they had him sit with Gohan and see how much better life was in the timeline he basically saved, and somehow get slme new form, when they could've legit made him on par with Goku and Vegeta, which would make sense for him to be prepared for whatever timeline he ended up in, as it's protector.
Argument: Trunks was never taught to hide his power level, as the androids couldn't sense energy and there was no reason to hide from anyone else. Gohan also died very quickly into Trunks' training.
Vegeta has thorough use of both techniques and can be assumed to be a Master. There is very little chance that Vegeta wouldn't be able to sense Trunks' power, as he was able to sense Goku's power in multiple arcs.
@@douglascramer1501 Man, those were better times when this vid was new (for my situation). Don't think I ever saw this response - and wasn't sure that I had posted a comment to this video.
I'm not sure that Trunks doesn't know how to suppress his power level. In the anime, when he fights Frieza's men, his power level reads so low that a henchman thinks he's a joke. He was also sandbagging against Cell to begin with.
Vegeta has a huge ego, and very rarely admits that someone is stronger. I don't think he'd admit to Trunks being stronger - maybe even to himself, if there weren't a huge difference.
Also, Krillin being able to notice suppressed power suggests he'd know if Vegeta were hiding a good amount of his power.
No he wasnt
In fact that part is awful to watch
Kuririn thinking he actually knows shit, and FT thinking hes hot shit; It was awful
My answer is no.
I always thought vegeta was stronger. But held enough back. Trunks was just gullible in believing he was stronger.
Vegeta was stronger since he knew the grade 3 was useless.
@@justinarzola4584 I think vegeta in grade 3 would be stronger then trunks grade 3
@@catmansweater5466 grade 3 would hold Vegeta back.
@@justinarzola4584 you hold back
“Look at me, I’m Trunks. Please love me Daaaaad!”
I sort of took Cell's "bluff" moment as Trunks had in fact achieved a tremendous amount of power, maybe comparable to SSJ2 Gohan, more likely just more powerful than Cell at 100% (right now, before the 10 day period before the tournament) So where he might not be as physically powerful, as we know Trunks would never be able to lay a hand on him. I'm sure he could block here and there, but he would ultimately avoid most of Trunks' attacks and Cell would win through attrition - in this scenario. I think, anyway. Cell's reactions seemed pretty genuine.
I really enjoy the topics and questions you bring to our attention. I feel like it adds even more enjoyment to the this story that we've always loved for so many years
How about the final flash in grade 3 form? Could it have defeated Cell?
The anime added a tiny detail that I saw while watching it as a kid.
The first time Vegeta powers up to "Super Vegeta" he actually powered up a bit more than he should have... (likely to flex for everyone who could sense power levels)
As he stood there freshly transformed he held it for like 10 seconds and let Cell soak it in. But then he immediately shrinks down a couple sizes before gut checking Cell.
That alone meant that Vegeta powered up the EXACT amount that wouldnt start decreasing his speed. (Vegeta knew its weaknesses the instant he could attain that new form, without even transforming into said form, just like Goku)
I agree. People forget that Vegeta is a Warrior, not a martial artist. He would never create a form as a crappy "last resort", he would rather just blow himself up, or the Planet.
If Vegeta wanted a NUKE, he could have just wished back his tail.
I'm currently doing power scaling stuff (For fun)
What form do you think Trunk and Vegeta were using in the Cell games (Grade 2 or full power Super Saiyan)?
*In the manga*
Grade 2
in the manga it seemed grade 4 but in the anime it seemed grade 2
I wanna say grade 4
I think Trunks is stronger with him being a Hybrid Saiyan
After Vegeta powers up against Cell he exhales, shrinking some of that muscle. To me that means that he knew not to transform too bulky
Well isn't this missing the point? Cell didn't know anything for sure, he hypothesized Vegeta probably didn't use grade 3 because he knew its flaw, but it was nv definitively proven that Vegeta achieved grade 3. I think that's the argument most people make. Personally I would say he was smart enough to realize that, but then again, Goku realized grade 2 was a waste of time and they should focus on improving stamina in SS all tg improving the form and it's power output, creating stage 4. Vegeta did not realize this, so for all we know he was just trying to focus on strength and just nv achieved grade 3. Even after semi witnessing Goku's strength and confidence when he came out of the time chamber with Gohan, Vegeta did not achieve what they did after another year of training in the time chamber so 🤷♂️
Although I would bet he could go grade 3 if he wanted to, the argument still exists that it's possible he couldn't.
Cell did know for sure. He told Trunks to his face that he was the one that he wanted to test his Perfect Form against because he sensed the power he was hiding. Die hards will try to make up any evidence they could, but Krillin and Cell both knew that Trunks was stronger than Vegeta the whole time. Vegeta didn't sense it because his hubris led him to believe that he was the still the strongest fighter on the field.
Trunks was negligent and definitely not stronger than vegeta
ppl always be forgetting just because vegeta didn’t go grade 3 ain’t mean can’t, vegeta is a battle genius wheras trunks was still young and erratic (ngl this hella ironic considering trunks was making the smarter decisions throughout this whole arc)
He was. Trunks became to slow to hit him. Trunks gave up speed for power
U mean speed for power because he was slow as hell vegeta knew of the form but didn’t want to transform because it was so useless
What it doesn’t make sense is that, for aliens able to move at the speed of light or faster and destroy entire planets without efforts, why does weighing a couple of pounds makes a difference in their speed and power? 😂
Because it makes all the difference between gaining an advantage in an actual fight. Cell bulking himself up for the sake of gaining an advantage on SSJ2 Gohan makes that clear. Being able to blow up a planet doesn't amount to squat against someone that can counterattack.
I don't think it's conclusive enough to say which one of them was stronger.
What I would like to know is if Vegeta had not altered the width of his final flash, could he have killed Cell? I think the answer is yes but he also destroys the earth in the process.
probably not completely. might've reduced him to a single cell, bringing him back a bit stronger.
Couldnt Vegeta just go into Grade 3 for the Final Flash?
It's not about the weight the muscles put on their body. These are characters that can move faster than the eye can see under multiple times gravity. It's more of a power balance. Well super Saiyan 1 and grade 2 boost both power and speed, grade 3 focuses more on power.
Yes Ultra Trunks was stronger but Super Vegeta's Final Flash was that powerful and Prince Vegeta as a experience warrior could be Future Trunks
Lol only cz Cell gave him 15 mins to charge up.. in 99% of the battle nobody gives their opponent 15 to charge up.
@@francisgomes9976 it was actually 5
@@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD nah bro.. just count when he wakes up from the nap and gets up on the air.. even 5 mins, and Cell could have dodge too..
@@francisgomes9976 well cell could have but the planet could have been destroyed and the prince challenge perfect cell to not dodge, did you not watch the scene or read the Manga?
Only because Vegeta chose not to use grade 3. When they're in the same form, Vegeta is stronger so if he used grade 3, his power would exceed Trunks as well.
Except Cell literally Stated Trunks would’ve beat him if he had the speed along with the power, which debunks your explanation lmao
I guess you missed the part of the video where I broke those statements down in depth. You must’ve been too busy writing your “gotcha” comment…
@@LSMMIKE I just believe Trunks is Weaker in Base form, And was stronger in Grade 3, but his speed definitely decreased and became slower than Grade 2, Grade 3 I agree is the most useless form in DBZ but it’s strength multiplier is bigger than Grade 2 while the speed was just slower because how bulky it is
I think Future Trunks was stronger than Vegeta in RAW POWER terms, but Vegeta was more experienced as a fighter and know how to use his ki more efficiently. Cell Saga Vegeta was very strong tho, especially during the second imperfect Cell form fights, he would have killed Cell at that point if not for him allowing Cell to reach Perfect.
I always assumes Trunks held back a bit around Vegeta to not hurt his pride, but also that he completely lacked the ability to really properly guage his opponents since he only ever really fought against androids he couldn't sense and training with Gohan who definitely didn't go all out against Trunks (at least not while in Super Saiyan form)
So I took both as being unreliable and Trunks being on par with or slightly stronger than Vegeta, since Krillin could tell Trunks was holding back in a way Vegeta wasn't.
You're giving Trunks far too little credit. His IQ wasn't as high as Goku or Vegeta's, but that doesn't mean he was a complete imbecile. He was able to gauge Frieza's power, and also Piccolo's after he fused with Kami. He also knew he could handle Cell's attacks long enough for Krillin to get Vegeta away from the area. He wouldn't have taken that risk if he wasn't sure about how much he could take from Cell.
@@decepticonxhunter4850 I mean, in terms of raw power, sure, but he's not good at guaging when people are holding back
You have great content in your videos. However, I think you spend a bit too much time recapping things that happened when leading into your analysis.
5:39 "I'm HIM"
Vegeta vs trunks in cell saga definitely Vegeta would have defeated trunks in a competitive fight !
Grade 3 is useless in duels, but I can see it being useful in team fights, where your friends can somehow restrain opponent from moving, like raditz vs goku and piccolo fight. For example, imagine trunks going grade 3 and starting to punch cell in the back, while cell is busy holding back gohans beam. But this kind of teamwork was rarely explored in dbz.
yup! that would mean exploring real tactics which are a thing often underutilized in dbz
Trunks ACTUALLY Stronger Than Vegeta In The Cell Saga
no he wasn't
grade 3 >>> grade 2 as explained it's good to be strong but if you don't touch your opponent it's useless and you lose your energy more easily
Vegeta was aware of the grade 3 form and its limitations
even Goku understood directly grade 3 limitations
Trunks doesn't have the same combat experience as his father or Goku, that's why he made rookie mistakes
I always understood it as speed decreasing due to bulk and not weight. Kinda like how super heavy weight body builders can’t answer their phone the normal way because their muscles get in the way.
I don't think so, Vegeta is a veteran fighter, to the point that when Goku do his shenanigans he always detects and have his rage pangs.
I might like to point that when Trunks become bulky Trunks it was the first and only time in the entire series that having more ki didn't matter, because DBZ have this BS where having a bigger ki automatically makes you faster and stronger, killing any kind of particular trait that the characters could had.
I’d like to see an alternate timeline of Dragon Ball where the villains show up much later so they get destroyed immediately. Like if the Z fighters never encounter Frieza until whatever year the Buu saga takes place. But everyone was still able to become as powerful as they are in the main timeline. So Frieza shows up on Earth after years of searching after learning that there are Dragon Balls there (Piccolo isn’t dead in this timeline and Vegeta became a good guy after his fight with Goku without needing years of development).
I can’t see that scenario happening. Cause it would never take that long for Frieza to make his way to earth if he both knows about the dragonballs and the fact that vegeta is there. Plus it took that arc to Namek to introduce ssj
16:23 sounds like 'stronger than any power I've tapped into so far, but I'll flex in a moment' 😂. Seriously though, he comes up with the tournament idea in a moment. I think he's just encouraging Trunks to train in different ways
no!
Cell (Imperfect): 32
Cell (Semiperfect): 48
Trunks (SSJ): 48
Vegeta (SSJ): 50
Vegeta (SSJg2): 60 but Slower
Cell (Perfect): 64
Trunks (SSJg3): 72 but Way Slower
Gohan (SSJ): 60
Cell (Super Perfect): 90
Gohan (SSJ2): 100
Yeah. Vegeta beats Trunks with speed.
Answer: Vegeta and Goku were both instinctually doing the same training, pushing their energy to the MAX and maintaining it as long as possible, to increase stamina in the Super Saiyan Form.
Grade 2 was a result of not properly controlling all of the energy, resulting in the body transforming to accommodate the strain.
Grade 3 was a result of pushing this Failed Form to the MAX. It is similar to Frieza's 100% Full Power Form, and can only be maintained for a very brief time.
Theory: Vegeta never went into Grade 3 because he is a seasoned warrior and not a Tournament Martial Artist, so he understands what is required to survive on the Battlefield.
If he needed a NUKE, he could just wish his tail back and regain his Ozaru Form, which you could argue that the absence of, is the reason for Vegeta and Goku's rapid growth.
A few things to keep in mind, Trunks assumed Vegeta never knew about grade 3, but later finds out Vegeta was actually able to go grade 3 but already knew the limitations so he chose not to use it, further evidence is when Vegeta wakes up after being knocked out he senses Trunks grade 3 vs Cell, he wasnt at all in awe of Trunks power, infact dismissing Trunks as foolish for using that form and thinking he could beat Cell, so Trunks being stronger was an assumption, was he stronger than Super Vegeta..By far! but did Vegeta have access to grade 3? Yes! So technically speaking we didnt see Vegetas full power, i'll say they were both even or theres a slight possibility that Vegeta couldve been just a bit stronger but he never used that power because he knew he wouldn't be able to hit Cell with it.The Super Vegeta transformation was better balance but just lacked the power and speed to compete against a perfect Cell, Grade 3 has thd power but zero speed making the form completely useless.
I always assumed when Cell said Trunk's power was "greater" thank his he was talking physical striking power and not all around power but was phrasing it to stroke Trunks ego to sort of make fun of him and make the psychological blow of beating him all the worse
Here's my thoughts on who was stronger before watching this vid.
I think trunks wasn't stronger or weaker when in the same regular SSJ both Trunks and Vegeta had at the time. But I think Trunks regarding Strength alone(not necessarily Power level) Trunks was stronger than Vegeta in the Grade SSJ trunks used(the super bulky one) because he probably had more practice with it than Vegeta with the same form asumeing Vegeta could use that transformation. And I think that Grade Trunks used is stronger than the best Grade of SSJ Vegeta had.
The issue too, is that force increase worth the loss of agility? And, why call it Grade 3? Think about it, it's just channeling ki into your muscles kinda like Younger Toguro increasing your physical output. Idk if it's different enough to call it a different grade of SSJ. I also don't get why Grade 2 didn't have a bigger hit to speed. I guess, this is why I'm starting to hate the transformations as a whole because they make literally no sense in how these changes do and don't affect the stats/fight as a whole. In my mind, Grade 2 should be a mediocre middle ground between Grade 1 and Grade 3. Like, Grade 1, is speed and Grade 3 is power but Grade 2 should be the mediocre mix of both especially if Mastered SSJ maxes out both with less drain. These manga analyses just remind me of how much people shouldn't really be worshipping Toriyama as a writer here. He refuses to break down how everything actually works. His power system and world building are actually pretty badly done. He just gives vague platitudes about shit is SUPPOSED to work because "Martial Arts," "Magic," and "Aliens". If the transformations actually affected the fights in any realistic way via stats or meaningful abilities, they'd mean so much more. I mean, fucking SHOW us rather than just hair color makes fights flashy. Sorry, I had to address the elephant in the room regarding these analyses.
I always wondered if freezer 100% form affects his speed like grade 3 ssj does
He was keeping up with Goku in their fight so I don't think so, maybe the form delayed his reaction which is why he got cut up by his disk or Frieza is just an idiot, probably the latter.
@@justinarzola4584 I think Frieza at the point of being cut in half was a matter of these things:
1- Exhaustion
2- Arrogance
3- Frustration of a long battle he felt he was losing
Future Trunks was NOT stronger than Vegeta.
In fact Vegeta can also go Grade 3 Ultra Super Saiyan, even Perfect Cell also knew Vegeta could do Grade 3, but Vegeta chose not to use it, because he was aware of the speed impediments it has, and how much it taxes on the body.
However, had Vegeta went Grade 3 USSJ, and then did the Final Flash on Perfect Cell point blank, he would have wiped Cell clean off the map.
To put it simply... no. It's literally stated by Vegeta when he confronts second form Cell (and Trunks never contradicts this), that, when in the same form, Vegeta is stronger than Trunks (though, even by Vegeta's own admittance, Trunks was still pretty close). Thing is, Vegeta COULD have boosted Super Saiyan into Grade 3 as Trunks did, and while he's never shown doing so like Gokū did, it's heavily implied that he was able to... but, unlike Trunks, Vegeta was smart and experienced enough to realize the severe downsides of that powerup, and as such stuck to Grade 2, which does suffer from such a large drop in speed. However, had he done so, he would have been stronger than Trunks in that form. But Vegeta got by by being smarter, not stronger.
Unrelated to the subject matter, but I always thought that the friendship Krillin and Future Trunks developed was interesting. When you think about it.. future Trunks didn't really make any close friends with any of the other Z fighters. But who was with him when they raided and destroyed Gero's lab? Who was with him during this fight? Who got the closest to Future Trunks? It was Krillin. In retrospect, you'd think Gohan would.
I think Cell meant Trunks was stronger than him Muscle v Muscle as supposed to power level vs power level
in one dub i heard Cell say something like "your actually stronger than myself currently...well...in just brute muscle...and muscle isn't everything"
Funniest part of the fight when cell was like “it’s vegeta wtf how I’m losing. ITS FUCKEN VEGETA !!!” Lmao like he was gonna get that easy dub
Trunks Grade 3 is more powerful than Vegeta Grade 2. But as Cell states, only a novice could take this form and expect it to work. Their discussion is juxtaposed with Goku achieving Grade 3 in the ROST and immediately abandoning it. The implication from Trunks is that Vegeta could have achieved Grade 3 too, but chose not to.
Trunks making this realization undoes all of the assumptions he made prior to this.
Trunks was not stronger than Vegeta in this arc.
Vegeta might consider himself a more powerful fighter than Trunks despite a physical disadvantage against Trunks, as Vegeta is more seasoned and trained. Knowledge is power.
Also, Trunks clearly misjudged what Goku said and meant by something pass super saiyan if he thought his grade 3 was it. It really shows Trunks arrogant side AND ties him and Vegetas personality together nicely. Cant really take statements from someone that's clearly a little full of himself. Like believing Vegeta when he said Buus power was nothing. A clearly stated WRONG statement lol we cant take Trunks word at face.
I think vegeta was stronger for 2 main reasons:
1. Vegeta was much stronger than trunks prior to entering the chamber, Trunks was shocked with vegeta's power when he fought 18.
2. Trunks probably wasted time training the grade 3 form, while vegeta spent time training grade 2, which makes vegeta's grade 2 stronger than trunks' untrained grade 2.
Plus vegeta is stronger willed and more experienced, I just don't see Trunks winning if they were to fight at full power
Depends what you mean by strength? Do you mean muscle strength? Then yes, I believe Trunks was stronger but if you mean overall power then no, Vegeta was stronger...
Honestly I really don’t like the way the manga explains and shows off power comparisons on the cell arc.
Super trunks at first holds his own against cell, initially cell even gets surprised by trunks strengh… then he says trunks is stronger than him but lacks speed, so he was doomed.
But why don’t use that power level on a finishing move like final flash? Vegeta could’ve powered up max power with grade 3 to boost his final flash.
Ok, after that we move to goku’s power up in korin tower. The way everybody reacts seems like goku half power was way stronger than vegeta and trunks full power… but how, if cell told that grade 3 trunks was stronger than him?
Ok there is all the talk about not losing energy/stamina while powering up but in the end gohan does
Indeed use a new transformation to beat cell.. and goku ssj is clearly stronger than grade 3 trunks. I feel like akira was just writing one chapter at a time without much of planning on his concepts, because the final product wasn’t so tight (ok we love dbz is epic and amazing but those power/transformations inconsistencies are not good)
25:50 One thing I like about the anime more. Here in the manga they don't say anything, but in the anime Vegeta says something like "Cell, the prince of planet Vegeta is going to end you!" to which Cell replies "the prince of planet Vegeta is a maggot" before slapping him.
When Vegita buffed up to fight Semi Perfect Cell, he was an Ultra Super Sayan to me. Then when Trunks fell into his transformation it was clear to me that he is better than his father...better yet, later on he buffed up even more, gaining more muscle mass. Power levels are lacking logic anyways...
Also, remember Goku showed Gohan stage 3 and pointed out the weaknesses, without us actually seeing him obtain the form. Sure Vegeta could do it. Since he knew the weaknesses he didnt. Wat point would it serve? So if both Trunks and Vegeta got the same form, Vegeta wins hands down.
He was stronger but not more powerful, i think is the fast answer. Cell was fast and strong, while Trunks was slow and stronger.
I think Trunks could have killed Cell if he had caught him, but then at this point we dont understand just how powerful Cell's recovery would be, so maybe the result would have been the same. Trunks somehow lands a powerful blast, one of Cell's fingers survives and then we're back to where we were before, and Cell is probably stronger cos Zenki
Wouldn’t trunks have the potential to be much stronger anyway given his half Saiyan half human genetics just like Gohan?
New what if, what if vegeta didn't stop trunks from letting cell absorb 18, would trunks be able to kill cell and eliminate all of his cells so he cnt regenerate......probably, or maybe what if vegeta and trunks teamed up vs perfect cell, could vegeta or trunks hold cell in place as the other go grade 3 n blast him idk probably not
While not spelled out so blatantly, I'm pretty sure grade 4 is perfected grade 2 and ssj2 is perfected grade 3.. and it's directly stated 4x that grade 3 was indeed stronger than cell.. and while you may say it was physical strength alone, Gohan used nothing but physical strength to defeat cell jr's and manhandle cell.. as well as the scaling matches, even with Gohan though you have to look at what actually happen with him and as him as a character..
I don’t think so. Vegeta was a veteran fighter who knew the grade 3 form limitations. Us as an audience found out about it so Goku shows Gohan the form and explains it, also while watching the fight with trunks and cell. Vegeta is a very tactical guy, even more than goku.
I swear people just don’t get this… was trunks physically stronger than vegeta? Yes… would he win? No… Vegeta is more experienced to just increase muscle mass… Trunks used all his stamina to get slower which is why cell got him to concede!
Its too bad there's so much screaming involved. Imagine rapidly switching to this form and back for a well timed heavy punch. Would definitely hurt someone who couldnt regenerate instantly
Vegeta's pride should if history provides anything would actually suggest that he's too good for weaklings and let's trunks beat imperfect cell and save the world like an inverse Napa