CLARIFICATION - all of you have been kind enough to provide more background on these and, it seems, this is in no way the full set. As far as we've gathered, there were 13/14/15 hats, 16-18 crashes (possibly a 15 crash), 21 ride, and a few other sizes via the "rarities" collection.
You should definitely contact Paul Francis at Cymbal craftsman. He definitely has first hand knowledge on how & why they are now different. He could also make some very accurate replicas of them too
I actually have firsthand experience with the 1st Gen Special Drys! In high school Jazz Band, the band kit had 14" Hi-Hats, 16" and 18" Crashes, and the 21" Ride, and I was fortunate to play them all 4 years of high school. Zildjian also made a pair of 13"s, and I believe I remember seeing an ancient vid of Aaron Spears (RIP to the GOAT) doing a quick cymbal tour on his phone, and showing off a pair of 15" SD Hi-Hats, the only 1st Gen 15s I've seen to my knowledge.
The old generation Special Dry is sought after because they are more versatile in my opinion. They have a nice clarity, but with a dark/dry edge to their line. The new generation is almost the opposite, what with its washy/trashy roar underneath the dry stick definition, the integrated/washy bell, and short decay after crashing them. They're both one of Zildjian's better lines of cymbals, so it's just a matter of personal preference. I do like the old generation better, as I like the clear bell that the old generation had, as well as the better stick definition. Just today I checked Reverb, and they had a SD old gen ride up for sale, so if you're patient you'll find one in time, just get a sound file first to see if the cymbal meets your expectations. Cheers!
completely agree, and its especially apparent with the ride. i definitely think they both have their place in a band/music style, but the second generation leans a lot more into the "dry" aspect
I live in Massachusetts and have gone on tours of the Zildjian factory in Norwell, I play bass so my memory is a little foggy on specifics so take this with a grain of salt. The various moves between factories and archival process of keeping the metal is very difficult, so the new ones could be completely different. They also changed the way they make cymbals when going into their current building (forget if this is when they moved production to NA? I believe its later). It could be that this was during hand pressing stage and not the current mechanical mechanisms. Another reason is rotating staff and reference cymbal changes. Every cymbal they make gets tested and compared by ear by one person (I forget his name), I'm not sure when he joined the company though. Moving all their reference cymbals and keeping old products costs money in inventory so they likely sold it off once it was no longer in production.
Definitely agree that the old ones sound that much better, I think the closest thing to them in the current catalog would be the K Custom Hi Definition Ride (and hi hats, though they're now discontinued too it seems!) . That similar dry but clean tone, rather than all trash.
Yes, 13” and 15” hats were made too. I had both for some years. Sounded really good. You can hear the 15s on Aaron Spear’s Dvd Beyond The Chops. He used them for a long time and it is the reason why I bought them
I definitely agree they both sound incredibly unique from each other! However, I think I would have to go with the new gen version on the recording. I think it sounds the closest to how they describe and has a lot more complexity to it. I do love the first gens though, especially that ride!
Great video. Really enjoyed it. I have a first edition 16" Special Dry Crash. Was lucky to get it from a sales person (who also played as a session drummer) at a music store for $81. From his personal collection. To my surprise he "had no use for it anymore".
@@ColeParamore Strange you should say that. I experimented with that as a top hat and an A Custom 16" thin as a bottom hat. Needless to say. Sounded amazing. But have revertes to using them as per normal.
The new ones remind me more of meinl byzance dry cymbals with the dark/trashy stick articulation and tones, the older ones have more of that bright zildjian stick articulation with less dark/trashy tones
I've just recently discovered the older K Jazz cymbals from the early days of the American Avedis Zidljian company and my experience is that they play and sound SO MUCH BETTER than the newer so-called K cymbals. No comparison. Now, if I could just find some original Kerope K's from Turkey.....
Meinl def started the dark dry craze. No one wanted this sound until they came out with byzance stuff. It was always the A customs and AAx and 2002s were the top cymbals from the 90s-late 2000s.
saw aaron with old gen 15" special drys. i remember seeing an offering of 17s from the rarities thing though im only getting this info from a very old demo from memphis drum shop lol
i also really like the old versions. the only thing i think i really like from the newer special dry ones was the 23" ride but they discontinued lolol edit: maybe also the 15" hi hats too, but i wonder how the old gen 15s would be
I've got a few of the 1st gen, 15 & 16" crashes, 14" hats, 19" crash-ride. They're excellent. I now have the 2nd gen 21" ride, 22" crash and 10" splash. You're spot on in your critique. Great video. That 19" crash-ride you and I have isnt technically 1st gen, it was part of the Rarities offering which was in 2011 only. I got mine through Tony at CymbalsOnly. The original crashes ran 14 through to 18, and then were discontinued (along with the hats) approx 2008, then did a special release in 2011 like they're now doing with the annual Custom Shop releases.
Have had a lot of experience with the newer gen special dry series and I’ve never not been disappointed unfortunately. Compared to other companies that have a “dry” range they are DRY. The rides especially being a let down as someone who’s into washier ride cymbals. These older ones sound fantastic though.
I much prefer the new special dry series for modern loud styles of funk rock and fusion. They have a faster attack and decay and more explosiveness which adds intensity to the music while simultaneously providing space for dense modern mixes. However, the first gen series sounds like they would be much better for quieter jazz and old-school funk/hip-hop (like you said). Great comparison!
There is a 18 inch k custom special dry crash first generation that I played in high school. I do agree to a certain point about the special Drive first generations and these today honestly they’re both great. They’re just different. I would take the first generations as like the best jazzy Cymbals , if anything I would get the first generation ones, and the new ones too, and mix them all together probably the symbols you have I would honestly attack, especially the crash
This is a K Custom, which means it's got rotohammering. You can't get that from a hand-made cymbal. Byzance's manufacturing process is closest to Dream: modern engineering and design philosophy, done with all hand-hammering. Sometimes you get the best of both worlds, and sometimes you get the worst. Just about the closest you can get from Turkiye to a KDSDR is a Bosphorus New Orleans Ride. One came into Music Go Round at the same time as a Special Dry, it was uncanny. The Bosphorus is trashy, but sounds like an actual cymbal. And it's very dry, but it ain't "special" dry. Honestly, I didn't like either.
I agree with you. I had original K dry customs back in the early 2000s and LOVED how heavy some were. Eventually sold them and moved on. Years later I went to get back into them and I was appalled to hear they re released the line but revamped it to compete with Meinl trash cymbals and make them super thin. I was devastated. I moved directly on to Paiste, due to how crazy consistent their cymbals are and how they DO NOT follow trends. Never been happy with any cymbals released in the past 12 years from the following; Meinl, Zildjian, Istanbul, Sabian (esspecially not them, new logo YUCK). Paiste has always been top! Amazing to record with too....
If you (or anyone) could hear the set of A Zildjians that I bought in High School (82?), which were 14 inch New Beats, an 18 inch Rock Crash, and a 21 Inch (discontinued size) Rock Ride, you would be utterly disgusted by the cymbals they are manufacturing and distributing today. They were perfect, and I have never heard a set of New Beats as good as the ones I owned. I worked in a drum shop in Southern California in the late 90's, and my boss and I would hand pick Zildjians for the store at the distributers warehouse- we'd put 4 Medium Crash 18's on stands to compare them, 3 would sound like trash can lids and the ONE would sound like a cymbal. It really shouldn't be like that, but it is. And guess what? Guitar Center gets those cymbals and puts them on a rack for sale. So, my advice to all drummers young and old is to taste test every single cymbal you're about to fork out 400 bucks for, especially if it's a Zildjian, especially if its sold at GC. If you ordered it online and it sounds like garbage, it's not your imagination, it's the cymbal. SEND IT BACK.
Bought one of those 21 inch rides new in 2010 still one of my go to rides I’m not a fan of the new versions instead went with some k cons that goes great that ride amazing in my opinion
I think that Zildjian aimed the new ones at rock drummers that want to play rock at lower volumes, or record rock drums in home studios. The Sabian Big & Uglys that ive played and heard sound more like the gen 1 k drys than the new ones do.
2011 zildjian rarities flyer offers 16" 17" 18" special dry crash and 19" special dry crash ride. You can find videos Paul Francis talking and playing them. Dennis Chambers used this special dry crash at this time
This is just another reason why I stick with Masterwork Cymbals who makes cymbals the old Turkish way. In house made ingots of B25 bronze, hand hammered, hand shaped, hand lathed, they have so many lines, offer moe sizes than the American/Canadian brands and thy will make you whatever you want custom
I think 1st gen 21 sd ride is the perfect ride. Found it funny that on vacation in Ljubljana few years ago there was concert in park. Right away noticed that the ride has to be 1st gen SD 21. There was big screen so could prove my ears with the familiar 1st gen hammering. I think closest Zildjian has done after 1st gen is 18 breakbeat/uptown ride. Bought my SD 21 used and it has 6 even rivet holes. The holes look pretty perfect so have been wondering if they made any with rivets straight from factory?
Interesting! I do like the new ones more! But i agree Zildjian should offer both lines and in general way more lines like Meinl does. They're waiting so long to release new stuff. The new special drys could be a bit louder though, but i like the trashy character a lot. The old ones don't speak to me, but sure would be a great variety to choose from Zildjian.
100% agreed the older ones sound much better IMO too, but... Is that because, the difference between the two, because the older one's are older and more used so have 'loosened up' I say this because I've owned a certain cymbal and a Zildjian K crash, bought a new one and of the exact same range, model etc. which didn't sound the same as the original. I know they're hand made, most of them, so you're going to have anomalous quirks in each but after a couple of years use, (I'm not a heavy hitter) the newer crash cymbal did loosen up. Just a thought.
I've been playing since the 80s and remember the fanfare when these came out. They never really took off in an era of smaller, brighter and heavier cymbals. For example, in the early 90s, the K thin brilliant crashes in 15" & 17" were standard. From memory the og Special Dries came in 13 & 14 hats, 15 - 18 crashes and a 21" ride. I don't remember the 19" crash ride being part of the original line up, but maybe my memory fails me. Interesting to know the ages of your cymbals. Zildjian includes the year the cymbal left the factory on the serial number of every cymbal since the mid 90s. Its the first 2 letters, e.g. 'JA' would be 2001.
The old ones sound perfect. Like those are perfect sample pack cymbals. The new ones have a "Khaaahhhhhh" sound to them that is not really what you want in everyday use, maybe not even in a studio IMO. The hats on the new set lack definition
These ones just have that stoney sound - if that makes sense. They cut a lot more than the crappy new gens . These are still dry but cut at the same time
I think I have 16 crash and 21 ride of the first gen in my collection, well I think anyway……. My two drumming sons tend to rotate through when I’m not home😮 Really Really love the ride!!! The crash not so much……
The old ones are worlds better for sure! Did you weigh them? The old ones sound heavier to me, which would make sense given how trashy the new ones are.
I agree with you 100% that the new KCSD don't sound as good as the 90s versions; but it is also ironic that you said you like Meinl cymbals. To my ear the new KCSD sound more like the Meinl Byzance range. I'm hearing similarities to the Benny Greb models and the stuff Thomas Lang and Louie Palmer use. In all likelihood, Zildjian probably discontinued this range in order to bring in the Constantinople cymbals for the jazz players. If there was an interest to bring back the KCSD, they probably decided to update them to what modern interpretations of them would be for the kinds of players out there today (as well as the other cymbal companies they have to compete with). In other words, if you're a jazz purist, get the Constantinople; if you're a modern hipster style drummer, get the new KCSD. But yes; the new ones sound very superficial compared to the 90s versions. I'm really tired of cymbals that sound like china trashes no matter what the intended purpose of them is supposed to be. Ugh.
You bring up good points. I think a lot of people forget that Byzance has a huge variety of different sounds - trashy stuff in the Extra Dry line sure, but the Traditionals are basically better sounding Ks to my ear. I totally agree that Zildjian seemed to be riding the trashy wave with these, just not in a way that appeals to me. Similarly, there are plenty of Meinl cymbals I don't like the sound of at all. Every brand will have lines you resonate with and don't. Thanks for the comment!
The little zoom in when you acknowledge that the New KCSDR is...not delicious...perfect. Zildjian has always been shit about making 15 inch hats, there's no way they made these in Mark I. I checked the Wiki and it said 2017-. I just got a the Jojo Meyer Fierce Ride and it makes me want to shake the people at Zildjian and say, "WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS!?!?!?"
I personally find the new special dry's live up to the name better of "dry" I have a modern 18" special dry crash and I utilise it as a less harsh alternative to my china, so I can incorporate it into grooves without over powering the song, and keeping that trashy sound. it seems the patina and hammering are distinctly different on the 2 generations, with the old ones having uniform hammer marks all the way around, where as the modern set have deeper hammer marks that are larger, and spread out further in the cymbal. I could be wrong but it sounds like from the video that the old gen are thicker than the new, 'cause the new have a lower pitch.
Like you, I prefer the older generation cymbals. The new ones just sound like white noise... they might fit into some lo-fi or electronic genres, but they're nowhere near as versatile as the old style ones. These would fit nicely into my lineup.
Hi there Cole. 2 things here: I like those cymbals. How much would you be asking for them? And I like your snare sound. What are you playing? Thank you.
Thanks! The snare is a 5x14 birch my dad made. I'd be looking for just the same price I paid for the cymbals. I think it was $350 for the hats and $275 for the crash-ride.
I love the original ones. The new ones are just horrible. I still have The original two 18 inch crashes and my 21 inch ride. Great video. Thanks for sharing.
I prefer the newer set, even if they're less versatile. They have more complexity and I prefer the way they decay. The old ones sound a little one-dimensional to me. Maybe they come across better when heard live and up close.
First of all, the K customs first generation has had many years to “age” what’s to make them sound completely different from new “off the shelf” K customs
@@ColeParamore : yes the molecules in CYMBALS seem to “settle down” the molecular structure actually changes and it CAN happen in 15 years 20 years 30 years but it’s true your K customs aren’t that old! It was Bob Yeager and other authorities who taught this to me many years ago that’s why they were always looking for the older cymbals!
Why do the older ones sound better, thicker? is it just me, but do the older ones have more hammering on the top, with less depth, and not spaced out like the new K, looking at the hi-hats...
It’s all fun and games until one of those cymbals break. Lol I have a history of breaking Zildjian cymbals… I’ve switched to everything but (minus the hats, those hats are older than I am, and I’m 20)
@ oh I do angle them. I break the rides more than anything and my ride is angled the most. Honestly I think it’s cymbal durability, because I love the sound when you crash a ride. I’ve had a 22” Paiste 2002 ride for several years now and it hasn’t broken on me yet, not a single crack at all
I prefer the old set, as you said the new ones are trashy and drier. But as as 70/80's Zildjian A player I think the old set sound a lot like my A's. Maybe they found that old set sound was not different enough to what they already make in other lines. Or did one of the Endorcees hone the new set sound to their personal taste? Were the old old ones Steve Gadd designed? (the Dialtune snare sound amazing)
I know a lot of those sets back in the day had artist input (Vinnie with the A Customs I believe) but I'm not sure about the Special Drys. Gadd would totally make sense though. Personally I feel like they sound different than anything else on the market right now or back then, but maybe that's just me. Snare is actually a 5x14 birch my dad made!
the new ones are thinner, hammering seems more spread but deeper, for sure more trashy than the first series. Of the two I'd also prefer the originals, I'm mostly playing Keropes and Constantinoples these days but I do have an old 20" K Cust Dry Light ride with 3 rivets that fits this vibe.
The best cymbals that you can't buy anymore are the original Traditional series of Wuhan's western cymbals. They were made for only a few years, starting around maybe 1999 or so. What they've made the last 20 or more years totally suck. I have the 20" medium ride and was planning to buy the other size, which was either 21" or 22",when they had quit making them =(
I've always said this but the 1st gen hats and rides were always good, the 1st gen crashes were a crap shoot you could find good ones, but more than not, they weren't that good.
the new ones seem more dry and trashy. the old ones don't have that harsh chiss sound the new ones do. the old ones could fit anywhere outside of maybe a metal show, where as the new ones might only fit in a metal show.
What do you mean "the reason I couldn't just get one myself" ? Its just like buying literally any cymbal ever made. If its discontinued or not its the same procedure every single time, you find one used, and you buy it? theres no government restriction on buying them. You can go online and buy any cymbal from the 50s to current, only thing stopping you is how much you want to spend?
You can't "just go out and buy one" because they're subject to availability on the used market. With an in-production model you can virtually guarantee availability which, with a discontinued model, you cannot. Hope that helps!
@@ColeParamore No used cymbal's availability is for sure technically, but you can search that particular used cymbal up and find plenty for sale. I'm not lying bro lmao
@ I don’t believe you’re technically or colloquially correct in this instance, and not sure why it means so much to you. There are plenty of these models that are nowhere to be found currently.
CLARIFICATION - all of you have been kind enough to provide more background on these and, it seems, this is in no way the full set. As far as we've gathered, there were 13/14/15 hats, 16-18 crashes (possibly a 15 crash), 21 ride, and a few other sizes via the "rarities" collection.
I just bought a original gen 21! Super pumped!
No 15" hats in the OG run. Those came out in the current gen. There is a 15" OG crash. One on reverb now.
taste is a funny thing. I never connected with the original versions but I loove the new versions. :=)
You should definitely contact Paul Francis at Cymbal craftsman. He definitely has first hand knowledge on how & why they are now different.
He could also make some very accurate replicas of them too
That's a great idea!
I actually have firsthand experience with the 1st Gen Special Drys! In high school Jazz Band, the band kit had 14" Hi-Hats, 16" and 18" Crashes, and the 21" Ride, and I was fortunate to play them all 4 years of high school. Zildjian also made a pair of 13"s, and I believe I remember seeing an ancient vid of Aaron Spears (RIP to the GOAT) doing a quick cymbal tour on his phone, and showing off a pair of 15" SD Hi-Hats, the only 1st Gen 15s I've seen to my knowledge.
Never knew they had the crashes! Come to think of it I was aware of 13s being out there, but forgot about Aaron's 15s. Great info!
The old generation Special Dry is sought after because they are more versatile in my opinion. They have a nice clarity, but with a dark/dry edge to their line. The new generation is almost the opposite, what with its washy/trashy roar underneath the dry stick definition, the integrated/washy bell, and short decay after crashing them. They're both one of Zildjian's better lines of cymbals, so it's just a matter of personal preference. I do like the old generation better, as I like the clear bell that the old generation had, as well as the better stick definition. Just today I checked Reverb, and they had a SD old gen ride up for sale, so if you're patient you'll find one in time, just get a sound file first to see if the cymbal meets your expectations. Cheers!
completely agree, and its especially apparent with the ride. i definitely think they both have their place in a band/music style, but the second generation leans a lot more into the "dry" aspect
Great video! The 70s and 80s were great decades for Zildjians. They had a "Deep Ride" 22" which was great for every style
I live in Massachusetts and have gone on tours of the Zildjian factory in Norwell, I play bass so my memory is a little foggy on specifics so take this with a grain of salt. The various moves between factories and archival process of keeping the metal is very difficult, so the new ones could be completely different. They also changed the way they make cymbals when going into their current building (forget if this is when they moved production to NA? I believe its later). It could be that this was during hand pressing stage and not the current mechanical mechanisms.
Another reason is rotating staff and reference cymbal changes. Every cymbal they make gets tested and compared by ear by one person (I forget his name), I'm not sure when he joined the company though. Moving all their reference cymbals and keeping old products costs money in inventory so they likely sold it off once it was no longer in production.
I must agree with you.I also love the old version
Oh yeah, I’m with you on the older ones sounding better. Congrats on getting a hold of them.
I would definitely buy the old ones if I could find them but I do love the new ones too. Thinking about picking up a few new ones soon
Definitely agree that the old ones sound that much better, I think the closest thing to them in the current catalog would be the K Custom Hi Definition Ride (and hi hats, though they're now discontinued too it seems!) . That similar dry but clean tone, rather than all trash.
Yes, 13” and 15” hats were made too. I had both for some years. Sounded really good. You can hear the 15s on Aaron Spear’s Dvd Beyond The Chops. He used them for a long time and it is the reason why I bought them
NEED those 15s! I forgot I was aware of the 13s but didn't know about Aaron's 15s.
I definitely agree they both sound incredibly unique from each other! However, I think I would have to go with the new gen version on the recording. I think it sounds the closest to how they describe and has a lot more complexity to it. I do love the first gens though, especially that ride!
I really love the dryness in those cymbals very nice for worship
I’m with you. I prefer the old ones. I only have one of them. I have a bottom hat from the old gen that I pair with a kerope top.
The vintage k's sounds so much better than the modern ones. Also the vintage high hats sound incredible. I would keep them in the collection.
Great video. Really enjoyed it. I have a first edition 16" Special Dry Crash. Was lucky to get it from a sales person (who also played as a session drummer) at a music store for $81. From his personal collection. To my surprise he "had no use for it anymore".
That sounds like half of a really cool pair of hats to me.
@@ColeParamore Strange you should say that. I experimented with that as a top hat and an A Custom 16" thin as a bottom hat. Needless to say. Sounded amazing. But have revertes to using them as per normal.
I’m digging your snare sound
Thanks!
Made this in case it's helpful for you! th-cam.com/users/shorts8rLpEpsvi1s
The new ones remind me more of meinl byzance dry cymbals with the dark/trashy stick articulation and tones, the older ones have more of that bright zildjian stick articulation with less dark/trashy tones
I've just recently discovered the older K Jazz cymbals from the early days of the American Avedis Zidljian company and my experience is that they play and sound SO MUCH BETTER than the newer so-called K cymbals. No comparison. Now, if I could just find some original Kerope K's from Turkey.....
Meinl def started the dark dry craze. No one wanted this sound until they came out with byzance stuff. It was always the A customs and AAx and 2002s were the top cymbals from the 90s-late 2000s.
saw aaron with old gen 15" special drys. i remember seeing an offering of 17s from the rarities thing though im only getting this info from a very old demo from memphis drum shop lol
i also really like the old versions. the only thing i think i really like from the newer special dry ones was the 23" ride but they discontinued lolol
edit: maybe also the 15" hi hats too, but i wonder how the old gen 15s would be
I own a first generation special dry 21 ride. It is my favorite ride cymbal. It is so much better than the new ones.
I've got a few of the 1st gen, 15 & 16" crashes, 14" hats, 19" crash-ride. They're excellent. I now have the 2nd gen 21" ride, 22" crash and 10" splash. You're spot on in your critique. Great video.
That 19" crash-ride you and I have isnt technically 1st gen, it was part of the Rarities offering which was in 2011 only. I got mine through Tony at CymbalsOnly. The original crashes ran 14 through to 18, and then were discontinued (along with the hats) approx 2008, then did a special release in 2011 like they're now doing with the annual Custom Shop releases.
Great info!
Have had a lot of experience with the newer gen special dry series and I’ve never not been disappointed unfortunately.
Compared to other companies that have a “dry” range they are DRY. The rides especially being a let down as someone who’s into washier ride cymbals.
These older ones sound fantastic though.
I much prefer the new special dry series for modern loud styles of funk rock and fusion. They have a faster attack and decay and more explosiveness which adds intensity to the music while simultaneously providing space for dense modern mixes. However, the first gen series sounds like they would be much better for quieter jazz and old-school funk/hip-hop (like you said). Great comparison!
There is a 18 inch k custom special dry crash first generation that I played in high school. I do agree to a certain point about the special Drive first generations and these today honestly they’re both great. They’re just different. I would take the first generations as like the best jazzy Cymbals , if anything I would get the first generation ones, and the new ones too, and mix them all together probably the symbols you have I would honestly attack, especially the crash
Ur spot on about the new Special Drys
Great stuff! That ride is killer!
My high school had the same hats and I greatly miss them
Also Zildjian was made 13" Special Dry Hi Hat first generation but only for 1 or 2 years period production !
Brought in during 2004 and everything was phased out in 2006.
It’s so funny how much the older K’s sound like Byzance Meinl cymbals. Which explains why you like them so much. 😊
You know, I haven't gotten that impression but that's interesting to hear!
This is a K Custom, which means it's got rotohammering. You can't get that from a hand-made cymbal.
Byzance's manufacturing process is closest to Dream: modern engineering and design philosophy, done with all hand-hammering.
Sometimes you get the best of both worlds, and sometimes you get the worst.
Just about the closest you can get from Turkiye to a KDSDR is a Bosphorus New Orleans Ride. One came into Music Go Round at the same time as a Special Dry, it was uncanny.
The Bosphorus is trashy, but sounds like an actual cymbal. And it's very dry, but it ain't "special" dry.
Honestly, I didn't like either.
I agree with you. I had original K dry customs back in the early 2000s and LOVED how heavy some were. Eventually sold them and moved on. Years later I went to get back into them and I was appalled to hear they re released the line but revamped it to compete with Meinl trash cymbals and make them super thin. I was devastated. I moved directly on to Paiste, due to how crazy consistent their cymbals are and how they DO NOT follow trends. Never been happy with any cymbals released in the past 12 years from the following; Meinl, Zildjian, Istanbul, Sabian (esspecially not them, new logo YUCK). Paiste has always been top! Amazing to record with too....
If you (or anyone) could hear the set of A Zildjians that I bought in High School (82?), which were 14 inch New Beats, an 18 inch Rock Crash, and a 21 Inch (discontinued size) Rock Ride, you would be utterly disgusted by the cymbals they are manufacturing and distributing today. They were perfect, and I have never heard a set of New Beats as good as the ones I owned.
I worked in a drum shop in Southern California in the late 90's, and my boss and I would hand pick Zildjians for the store at the distributers warehouse- we'd put 4 Medium Crash 18's on stands to compare them, 3 would sound like trash can lids and the ONE would sound like a cymbal. It really shouldn't be like that, but it is. And guess what? Guitar Center gets those cymbals and puts them on a rack for sale. So, my advice to all drummers young and old is to taste test every single cymbal you're about to fork out 400 bucks for, especially if it's a Zildjian, especially if its sold at GC. If you ordered it online and it sounds like garbage, it's not your imagination, it's the cymbal. SEND IT BACK.
Bought one of those 21 inch rides new in 2010 still one of my go to rides I’m not a fan of the new versions instead went with some k cons that goes great that ride amazing in my opinion
I think that Zildjian aimed the new ones at rock drummers that want to play rock at lower volumes, or record rock drums in home studios. The Sabian Big & Uglys that ive played and heard sound more like the gen 1 k drys than the new ones do.
2011 zildjian rarities flyer offers 16" 17" 18" special dry crash and 19" special dry crash ride. You can find videos Paul Francis talking and playing them. Dennis Chambers used this special dry crash at this time
Great info!
This is just another reason why I stick with Masterwork Cymbals who makes cymbals the old Turkish way. In house made ingots of B25 bronze, hand hammered, hand shaped, hand lathed, they have so many lines, offer moe sizes than the American/Canadian brands and thy will make you whatever you want custom
Totally different but yet all unique
I’m not surprised that the older (originals) had a better tonal character that I’d prefer ... I Shoulda sought them out back then
I think 1st gen 21 sd ride is the perfect ride. Found it funny that on vacation in Ljubljana few years ago there was concert in park. Right away noticed that the ride has to be 1st gen SD 21. There was big screen so could prove my ears with the familiar 1st gen hammering. I think closest Zildjian has done after 1st gen is 18 breakbeat/uptown ride. Bought my SD 21 used and it has 6 even rivet holes. The holes look pretty perfect so have been wondering if they made any with rivets straight from factory?
I like the new version better but i definitely hear the different
at 1.5 times speed it becomes dope jungle music and I like it a lot lol
I still have my 21" rock ride from 1988
I actually like both.
Interesting! I do like the new ones more! But i agree Zildjian should offer both lines and in general way more lines like Meinl does. They're waiting so long to release new stuff. The new special drys could be a bit louder though, but i like the trashy character a lot. The old ones don't speak to me, but sure would be a great variety to choose from Zildjian.
100% agreed the older ones sound much better IMO too, but... Is that because, the difference between the two, because the older one's are older and more used so have 'loosened up' I say this because I've owned a certain cymbal and a Zildjian K crash, bought a new one and of the exact same range, model etc. which didn't sound the same as the original.
I know they're hand made, most of them, so you're going to have anomalous quirks in each but after a couple of years use, (I'm not a heavy hitter) the newer crash cymbal did loosen up.
Just a thought.
I've been playing since the 80s and remember the fanfare when these came out. They never really took off in an era of smaller, brighter and heavier cymbals. For example, in the early 90s, the K thin brilliant crashes in 15" & 17" were standard. From memory the og Special Dries came in 13 & 14 hats, 15 - 18 crashes and a 21" ride. I don't remember the 19" crash ride being part of the original line up, but maybe my memory fails me. Interesting to know the ages of your cymbals. Zildjian includes the year the cymbal left the factory on the serial number of every cymbal since the mid 90s. Its the first 2 letters, e.g. 'JA' would be 2001.
Good info! I'll have to check.
These are on my list, glad I didn't buy the newer ones 😎😎
Btw, you played the new ones with price stickers on, from experience, extreme sound change
@@yonatanfranco9103 don’t worry, I worked the shop for years, those stickers are deliberately super thin and only make a difference on splashes.
The old ones sound perfect. Like those are perfect sample pack cymbals. The new ones have a "Khaaahhhhhh" sound to them that is not really what you want in everyday use, maybe not even in a studio IMO. The hats on the new set lack definition
I had the Hihats and the crash before it was stolen. I wish i could get my old cymbals back as they where special and not made anymore
Let me know if you're interested in buying these ones!
By the way, they did make 1st gen crashes
These ones just have that stoney sound - if that makes sense. They cut a lot more than the crappy new gens . These are still dry but cut at the same time
I think I have 16 crash and 21 ride of the first gen in my collection, well I think anyway……. My two drumming sons tend to rotate through when I’m not home😮 Really Really love the ride!!! The crash not so much……
The old ones are worlds better for sure! Did you weigh them? The old ones sound heavier to me, which would make sense given how trashy the new ones are.
I agree with you 100% that the new KCSD don't sound as good as the 90s versions; but it is also ironic that you said you like Meinl cymbals. To my ear the new KCSD sound more like the Meinl Byzance range. I'm hearing similarities to the Benny Greb models and the stuff Thomas Lang and Louie Palmer use. In all likelihood, Zildjian probably discontinued this range in order to bring in the Constantinople cymbals for the jazz players. If there was an interest to bring back the KCSD, they probably decided to update them to what modern interpretations of them would be for the kinds of players out there today (as well as the other cymbal companies they have to compete with). In other words, if you're a jazz purist, get the Constantinople; if you're a modern hipster style drummer, get the new KCSD. But yes; the new ones sound very superficial compared to the 90s versions. I'm really tired of cymbals that sound like china trashes no matter what the intended purpose of them is supposed to be. Ugh.
You bring up good points. I think a lot of people forget that Byzance has a huge variety of different sounds - trashy stuff in the Extra Dry line sure, but the Traditionals are basically better sounding Ks to my ear. I totally agree that Zildjian seemed to be riding the trashy wave with these, just not in a way that appeals to me. Similarly, there are plenty of Meinl cymbals I don't like the sound of at all. Every brand will have lines you resonate with and don't. Thanks for the comment!
Aaron spears had the 15s and there were 18s aswell
Meinl extra dry hats, are lord
I had the old style 21. I much prefer the newer version. Much more versatile.
The little zoom in when you acknowledge that the New KCSDR is...not delicious...perfect.
Zildjian has always been shit about making 15 inch hats, there's no way they made these in Mark I. I checked the Wiki and it said 2017-.
I just got a the Jojo Meyer Fierce Ride and it makes me want to shake the people at Zildjian and say, "WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS!?!?!?"
I personally find the new special dry's live up to the name better of "dry" I have a modern 18" special dry crash and I utilise it as a less harsh alternative to my china, so I can incorporate it into grooves without over powering the song, and keeping that trashy sound. it seems the patina and hammering are distinctly different on the 2 generations, with the old ones having uniform hammer marks all the way around, where as the modern set have deeper hammer marks that are larger, and spread out further in the cymbal. I could be wrong but it sounds like from the video that the old gen are thicker than the new, 'cause the new have a lower pitch.
Like you, I prefer the older generation cymbals. The new ones just sound like white noise... they might fit into some lo-fi or electronic genres, but they're nowhere near as versatile as the old style ones. These would fit nicely into my lineup.
I HAD NO IDEA THIS HAPPENED. :O
I want that snare tuning technique
In short - high! It's a 5x14 birch and the HD Dry head + dampening are really doing the work.
@@ColeParamore ok that helps a lot! I have a 14x5 yamaha birch snare. Thanks!
You’re right, the old version sounds better to me
I agree Man. The original style and sound was way better
I like the old ones are more. I cant get over the duck-tape on the ride though, the sound has been tampered with...
*improved!
Cole- What snare are you using? Sounds great!!!!
5x14 birch my dad made!
BTW - made this in case it helps: th-cam.com/users/shorts8rLpEpsvi1s
I get the new generation isn’t everyone’s cup of tea but the 15” hi hats have barely left my stand on the 7 or so years I’ve had them.
The 1st generation also came with 16” and 18 crashes
Thanks!
Hi there Cole. 2 things here: I like those cymbals. How much would you be asking for them? And I like your snare sound. What are you playing? Thank you.
Thanks! The snare is a 5x14 birch my dad made. I'd be looking for just the same price I paid for the cymbals. I think it was $350 for the hats and $275 for the crash-ride.
@@ColeParamore I wish my dad made snare drums. It sounds like a bargain. I sent you a DM on IG.
I love the original ones. The new ones are just horrible. I still have
The original two 18 inch crashes and my 21 inch ride. Great video. Thanks for sharing.
do you you think patina has anything to do with sound
Not much, typically.
As if Zildjian cymbals from the same line and production run even sounded close to one another ;)
Gen 1 👍
Bring back the original Z custom please
I prefer the newer set, even if they're less versatile. They have more complexity and I prefer the way they decay. The old ones sound a little one-dimensional to me. Maybe they come across better when heard live and up close.
First of all, the K customs first generation has had many years to “age” what’s to make them sound completely different from new “off the shelf” K customs
While cymbal age is a factor, I guarantee you that isn't where the majority of the difference is coming from.
@@ColeParamore : yes the molecules in CYMBALS seem to “settle down” the molecular structure actually changes and it CAN happen in 15 years 20 years 30 years but it’s true your K customs aren’t that old!
It was Bob Yeager and other authorities who taught this to me many years ago that’s why they were always looking for the older cymbals!
They stopped making them in 2011? I bought the 21” ride new in 2016. It’s a lot better than the new ones, but still not crazy about it. Meh.
Take my dates with a grain of salt. That said - it takes a while for inventory to completely sell out after something has been discontinued.
Why do the older ones sound better, thicker? is it just me, but do the older ones have more hammering on the top, with less depth, and not spaced out like the new K, looking at the hi-hats...
Yep, totally different manufacturing process.
It’s all fun and games until one of those cymbals break. Lol I have a history of breaking Zildjian cymbals… I’ve switched to everything but (minus the hats, those hats are older than I am, and I’m 20)
Angle your cymbals and play em, bashing be fun but if Ginger only needed one set for his whole life then I think it’s not the cymbals
@ oh I do angle them. I break the rides more than anything and my ride is angled the most. Honestly I think it’s cymbal durability, because I love the sound when you crash a ride. I’ve had a 22” Paiste 2002 ride for several years now and it hasn’t broken on me yet, not a single crack at all
I like the trashy! Gen2
I prefer the old set, as you said the new ones are trashy and drier. But as as 70/80's Zildjian A player I think the old set sound a lot like my A's. Maybe they found that old set sound was not different enough to what they already make in other lines. Or did one of the Endorcees hone the new set sound to their personal taste? Were the old old ones Steve Gadd designed? (the Dialtune snare sound amazing)
I know a lot of those sets back in the day had artist input (Vinnie with the A Customs I believe) but I'm not sure about the Special Drys. Gadd would totally make sense though. Personally I feel like they sound different than anything else on the market right now or back then, but maybe that's just me. Snare is actually a 5x14 birch my dad made!
Steve Gadd cymbals were K Custom Session series...unless he designed more than one set.
the new ones are thinner, hammering seems more spread but deeper, for sure more trashy than the first series. Of the two I'd also prefer the originals, I'm mostly playing Keropes and Constantinoples these days but I do have an old 20" K Cust Dry Light ride with 3 rivets that fits this vibe.
You are endorsing Meinl, right? How were you able to make this video?
@@llRoBoBinHoll nope, no endorsements at this point.
Sounds to me like the newer gen eliminated the need for putting gaff tape on your cymbals
@@redonred0924or rather, even gaff couldn’t save them.
The best cymbals that you can't buy anymore are the original Traditional series of Wuhan's western cymbals. They were made for only a few years, starting around maybe 1999 or so. What they've made the last 20 or more years totally suck. I have the 20" medium ride and was planning to buy the other size, which was either 21" or 22",when they had quit making them =(
Zildjian has been sub par for a good while
I've always said this but the 1st gen hats and rides were always good, the 1st gen crashes were a crap shoot you could find good ones, but more than not, they weren't that good.
the new ones seem more dry and trashy. the old ones don't have that harsh chiss sound the new ones do. the old ones could fit anywhere outside of maybe a metal show, where as the new ones might only fit in a metal show.
What do you mean "the reason I couldn't just get one myself" ? Its just like buying literally any cymbal ever made. If its discontinued or not its the same procedure every single time, you find one used, and you buy it? theres no government restriction on buying them. You can go online and buy any cymbal from the 50s to current, only thing stopping you is how much you want to spend?
You can't "just go out and buy one" because they're subject to availability on the used market. With an in-production model you can virtually guarantee availability which, with a discontinued model, you cannot. Hope that helps!
@@ColeParamore No used cymbal's availability is for sure technically, but you can search that particular used cymbal up and find plenty for sale. I'm not lying bro lmao
@ I don’t believe you’re technically or colloquially correct in this instance, and not sure why it means so much to you. There are plenty of these models that are nowhere to be found currently.
Man the new ones sounds nasty. The new hi hats are ok but the other two really did not sound great. The older cymbals sound pretty awesome.
The newer ones suck. I have that ride as well.
the old ones way better, no comparison at all.
I'll take the new generation hats. Not a fan of either crash ride 19's. The older 21 ride is to die for.
Just call ZILDJIAN and ask them if the first generation K customs came in 15 inch hats! not rocket science!
@@nealsausen4651 and take all the fun out of it?
This goes for about any Z series. The older versions are better.
I love the old gen. The new ones are way too trashy sounding for me.
How are you going to A/B these with a piece of gaffer tape on the ride? What the hell