P&S ModCast 107 - Gun Nerds 8: 308 Gas Guns
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ย. 2024
- Primary & Secondary ModCast
The panel discusses 308 semiauto rifles in application and compared to other options.
Panel:
Jordan Bowles: Carnik Con
John Brady: Sniper SME
Ash Hess: Warrior Industries
Rick Labistre: Sniper SME
Matt Landfair: Primary & Secondary
Jack Leuba: Knights Armament
Mike Lewis: 82nd Airborne Retired
Ian McCollum: Forgotten Weapons
Ray Miller: 82nd Airborne Master Gunner
Chuck Pressburg: Presscheck Consulting
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Intro music by American Hitmen - Killing Floor
![PURPEECH - นี่ฉันเองคนที่... (It's me) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NuhHd0hOOg8/mqdefault.jpg)
0:00 Introductions
3:45 Ian explains .308 history, .280 Britbong, Lethality and Terminal Ball-istics
11:11 Distance, Marksmanship, more Intros, AR-10 & Armalite
19:50 .308 Lethality and MGs, Hits and Range, Optics, Terrain
31:20 Current Gas Guns, Accuracy
44:15 Mike and Rick arrive, SCAR-17, Short Barrels, 7.62 Guns in the Squad, Tali-Tubby Behavior, BC & Wind
55:00 Adopting 7.62 while looking Forward, Ammo Types, NGSAR
1:05:15 Current and Future Fights, Future Tech, Suppressors
1:13:40 7.62's Imminence, Assaulter's Gun, Contenders, Manufacturing Stuff
1:31:07 Outsourcing Parts, Production Bottlenecks
1:39:15 Gas Systems and Gun Design, Ergos
1:51:50 Predictions of the Next Fight, Service Requirements, Meeting (Future) Threats
2:06:16 Total Mobilization, Training Standards, Megacities and Near-Peer
2:21:45 Caliber for Megacities, Appreciating 5.56, SDM and Higher-Up's Opinions
2:32:00 600m Shooting, Supporting Near-Peer Warfare, Relief in Place
2:45:54 The 7.62 Rifle, Rifles in MG Games & Takur Ghar, Role of SDM, 40mm Grenades
3:04:15 Ash on M14, Why Knight's Armament is Great, Ballistics and Optics
3:25:30 Jumping out of Perfectly Good Airplanes
3:35:50 Shoutouts and Goodnight
James Kachman 3:19 Formula 1 fuel standard is actually commercially available pump gas Per FIA regulations. The Oil though is cutting-edge stuff with R&D budget on par with NASA. Can’t run Walmart oil.
1:13:42 Ian leaves
1:47:06 Ian returns
2:48:12 Ian leaves again
Thank you Ian for bringing P&S to my attention 5 years ago
At 1h 23, when talking about getting engineering firms to make guns, that is how the SA-80 happend.
That was a bad gun....
Nah, that was getting a precision bolt-gun company to make a stamped metal infantry piston gun.
The 58 foot pounds came from a determination the army came up with on the amount of energy it took for a projectile to penetrate a 1/2 inch pine sheet of wood
Kasey Alley correct. Which works for a 30 cal projective at the sectional density for that ball round. As Ian points out that doesn’t account for things shrapnel or overpressure wounds from explosives.
@Phillip Cameron I wold have to think so. I'm sure there are other factors in play but on the most basic level fewer wood fibers have to be destroyed so less energy is required. There is the concept of sectional density which is the mass of the projectile divided by the frontal area. Two similarly constructed projectiles with different diameters but similar sectional densities should penetrate similarly.
The 58 ft-lb criterion is from the DoD Explosives Safety Board as used for defining a hazardous fragment. It was apparently originated around 1900 by the German Army based on some non-specific criterion like "like .... remove a soldier from the battlefield".
New to Modcasts. Been powering through since Monday. Very interesting to watch them with hindsight. I honestly thought 6.5 Grendel made a lot of sense for much less investment than NGSW. Seems to be funny business going on with Sig, but hey, what do i know. By the way, what ever happened to 6.8? Steve Holland seems to really love and back that.
Evidently it's still in the works. Not sure if you know but Steve is on the Tactical Rifleman livstream almost every week.
FYI, North Easter Arms (NEA) 102 received non-restricted status in Canada, by being an AR10 derived platform. In the next months, this will become a rather active segment of equipment in Canada because of that specific status.
This is an awesome discussion. Really interesting especially the depth of the discussion all the way back to the QDR and logistics as a fall out of the funding decisions.
All this discussion of warfare in a hypothetical megacity got me thinking of how you would deploy lmgs in such in environment. I gotta say having something like an M27 IAR seems a lot more desirable to haul up a 60 story building than an M249 and has the added benefit of precision building to building shoots.
Yay, Gun Jesus!
All the talk in these podcasts about weight and two diff ammo types in the squad, makes sense. However then have to ask, does there have to be a mg and dmr in the squad system? If so then it’s inevitable
I think 5.56 is fine for most situations besides all out range. The velocity of 5.56 does things slower heavier bullets don't. The military has to use full metal jacket bullets and 308 will just blow holes through flesh with jacketed ammo while 5.56 will yaw and even break apart doing a lot of damage. Now 308 hollow point may knock it out of the park but that will never come to fruition. I think the issue'a are from using the heavier slower bullets in 5.56 and losing that velocity correct ? So in that regard a .30 cal hole is better than a .22. There is a lot of merit to the softer recoil of 5.56 to put shots on target though and carrying around less weight matter as well too. Both of which I'd say probably out weight the negatives of the round. I say keep it and use the barrett and M2 50 for everything else XD
If barrel length equals accuracy, my 29 inch barrel Swedish Mauser must be over 200% more accurate than a 14 inch AR! Holy grapeshot, it's the perfect infantry weapon!
@Phillip Cameron They are.
Only until you are fighting inside a 5 room 18'x26' building then I will take the 14 inch AR.
I love how Ian just left. Smartest guy only gets like 10 mins to talk.......... Smh
Small arms have never been the casualty producing weapons of war anyway. Stats coming out of Ukraine are small arms fatalities account for just 9% of casualties. It matters far more to dudes like Chuck in DA roles. Everyone else is returning area fire and calling for fires.
Had the M16 never existed, would we be talking about an internal piston any more? Isn't that like saying 'if the internal combustion engine had never been invented, would we be talking about diesel engines any more?'
1:47:48 Could not agree more
sooo why not go with 6.5 Grendel? it seems like it mostly solves all the issues you speak of? obviously it wouldn't be a good interim solution. but something that can be put in an AR15 platform and have a high BC without the weight and recoil of 308 or any of the larger 6-7mm rounds with longer OAL. it outperforms 308 at 900+ shoots flatter, recoils less is great out of a 16-18" barrel. has lower pressure than 5.56 (longer service life) is already being adopted by the Serbs as an (SDM/ light precision role) save for waiting on magpul to develop a Gucci 6.5 grendel mag, not sure what the issue is? Even a suppressor like Delta P Designs BREVIS II would make it a good candidate. I get the impression that a new intermediate caliber has but it seems this checks all the boxes?? Will there be a modcast on alternative intermediate calibers in the future??
elephantrider78 The thin material around the bolt face is only an issue if you try to shoehorn the 6.5 Grendel into existing AR uppers & bolts. If we bought entirely new rifles, we would just spec the bolt faces wider, bolt face material thick enough, and receivers large enough to accommodate them. I know the CMMG Mutant isn't a paradigm of reliability, but it's concept of making an AR with slightly beefier bolt faces (to shoot 7.62x39, same bolt face as 6.5 Grendel) and modifying the receiver as necessary is sound.
If the only legitimate argument against 6.5 Grendel is a non-issue within the parameters of what we're actually discussing (new rifles for the whole military), then we should take a hard look at it.
elephantrider78 agreed, I misspoke by giving the plug and play impression. It it wouldn't be a bolt, barrel swap. engineering an upper receiver group may be needed. or make an existing 6.5 Grendel bolt out of a stronger material (I know first hand it can be done) and viola you have a more capable solution that can be fielded across the board instead of incompatible weapons within the squad. when it comes to engineering firearms you create or select a caliber that meets your given performance needs then engineer a weapon around that. the way this interim program is they have it backwards, select a 308 rifle then find the caliber we need because every intermediate and most 6-7mm improved cartridges will fit. it'll cut more costs and take less time if you know what you want before you purchase it right?
I think the whole thing holding that up is that 5.56 and 7.62 are part of the nato pack. The idea is we use the same ammunition and can feely exchange ammo on the battlefield when ww3 hits. I agree the 6.5 caliber rounds are a do all for any personal/very light armor related tasks it would seem.
a 6mm grendel may be better with 105gn bullets going maybe up to 2650-2700 fps from a 16" barrel. Even flatter cuz it's going just a little faster and a little less recoil but still putting out 1700 ft lbs at the muzzle.
@elephantrider78 That's a negative. The bolts actually made for the Grendel and not the compromise 7.62 Russian bolts actually hold up with no problems.
I want new or existing cartridge with an 80-100gr bullet with a high BC pushing 3k fps out of a 16" barrel. Could this be done with manageable recoil?
More than 5.56 of course. When you think about it, it's more weight being pushed at the same velocity, it's gonna push you more.
Yeah, I thought it was unlikely. I guess rounds can't pierce armor, be light weight, have a great BC, manageable recoil, high velocity and good barrel life.
I find the Scar 17 to be pretty manageable, It is my yardstick, I want the recoil to be a bit less than that.
That's really close to what a 100 grain .243 does but out of a 24" barrel. SIG has developed the .277 Fury that does this out of a 16" barrel with 130 grain bullets, essentially .270 Winchester performance with 8" less barrel.
When will this be available as a podcast?
It was released as it was broadcast. It was live audio streamed and stayed there.
is there a place with all the specs of the roland special?
P&S Forum
762 HIV .
Yes!
Knight's guy talks just like Trey Knight. Funny how people will pick uo on and adopt other people's speech and cadance if they are around them enough.
Chuck GOATburg...
Rofl what is with this dudes obsession with long stroke piston? Long stroke piston fucking sucks in anything smaller than a GPMG.
GM, Ford and Nissan...??? Those are the LAST companies we want making anything. TOYOTA... or Mercedes and maybe Volkswagen/Porsche are the only car companies who have the quality and engineering brains to do something like that... GM'S rifles would all fall apart after 100 rounds, Ford would make a decent rifle at first then kill it with the kind of piss-poor engineering you thought only GM could muster and Nissan??? LOL, they'd brag about how great their guns were even as they were exploding in shooters hands... again... TOYOTA. If you want the most rugged, most capable, most intelligently designed look to the company that makes trucks that can be hit by explosive attacks and keep on running... That's TOYOTA. LOL
VW would lie about the lead content A good American company needs to make the guns in America.
@@bobbysmitherjones9920 fiat owns ram so I would be betting on the pick'um up truck that started with a Cummins
This was a shit show.... All talk about ammo and barely about rifles. And, I’m not shocked Ian left. He’s a data guy and when he asked a legit question and got a sarcastic “try google”, I would have checked out at that point. Towards the end he liked bored as hell. I love guns and I lasted to about an hour and twenty....
sounds like this channel isnt for you. thanks for trying
@@PrimaryAndSecondary I think it was the panel and topic....Prior to this I listened to the more recent one that was over 5 hours....enjoyed that one...