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I think healers are designed that way because of the various side mechanics like Astro's cards, Sage's addersting, Scholar's aetherflow, which are technically part of the "rotation" but in practice, it's still boring if you have a good party that doesn't need much healing. (At least when playing MSQ content.)
As a guy who heals on controller, I don’t want more buttons, and I don’t really feel like a rotation is necessary or would even be meaningful. I’ve got two cross hotbars worth already and the only free spot I have goes to the mind pot. Maybe it’s because I play Sage and WHM in savage, but I’m pretty grateful when we get to mechs like AP2/Rotten Hearts, Fuse Field, or Intermission where we can mentally catch our breaths, just keeping our spell spams and topping people off.
@@LtOuroumovAST was designed that way out of the gate to account for the cards, which also used to have much more going on as far as mental stack, but it always sucked even on old AST. Both the one button rotation* and halfcasts** were forced onto SCH/WHM in ShB in a move toward homoganization. * Note: not actually a combo/rotation that could be interrupted by needing to heal. Just multiple DoTs of different lengths/cast times to keep spinning. ** I'm actually in the camp that halfcasts were a net negative for SCH. Yes, it's numerically a buff, but we _already_ had a tool for movement and weaving in the form of Ruin2, with it's own conciderations to be made. We did not need to get both for free with every cast.
@@AaronthePedantic Idk... I play SGE and WHM as well with controller, but I would enjoy a more engaging gameplay. Rn it feels a bit lackluster, specially once you know the encounter. Playing SGE in TOP gets very samey.
@@ChepsGaming I can see how you feel that way after playing those jobs for years at the top of the raiding scene with similar good players that have beaten the game and optmized everything. The majority of players plays in groups where things do go wrong and have to deal with a lot of things. Adding more buttons on top because some people feel bored after they cleared is not what comes to mind first.
PvE: Every single role has to play exactly the same except with different animations PvP: Hey what would happen if we gave AST, RPR's teleport and an AoE 75% Heavy debuff on demand? Lol that'd be so dope, let's go for it.
I just don't understand why the devs don't let there be simple jobs and complex jobs. They need to make a range of jobs for each part of the mastery curve to appeal to a wide range of players, and it's also okay for some jobs to be a little better than others as a result.
This is the best take imo. I see too many people who say the focus of the game should be mastering your job and doing endgame raids and such, but that alienates casual players and people who enjoy other content instead, or players who can't do complex jobs due to disabilities or not having the time and energy to train on a job. Having some jobs be simple and others be complex is best of both worlds. Simple jobs can be easy for lower skill players to use and even help with getting into harder content, but higher complexity jobs are great for high skill players' skill expression
Because the simpler jobs would either do less damage to balance out their ease of use or be the only thing people play if the damage is comparable (i.e. why you see fewer NINs these days). Is what I would say... But then they released Pictomancer and that job is both cracked and simple so idk lmao 😂
I much rather have every job have depth, but have every job be allowed to be played brainless for less performance. think DragonKick MNK / Ice SAM, it's not optimal? but hey the choice is there. And if were talking proper rotation? most players press their buttons thoughtless in whatever order they feel like without uptime in mind. Making some Jobs purely simple and some purely complex? alienates a certain group no matter what. Have the players themselves be allowed to choose how far they could take a Job or not would be more ideal
As sad as it seems party finder would start blocking jobs because damage. We already saw a microcosm of this with p8s before the nerf. Pfs were literally blocking mch, rdm and 1 more ( forgetting which one. And they were requiring double melee and all sort of stuff. If there is optimization people will try to game it. I DO think there shoild be more job complexity and players should be rewarded. I dont think there should be a huge gap in dps as dumb as that sounds.
Even just cutting carve and spit's cooldown by half would make things feel better, regardless if they have to shift potencies to make it happen. Other tanks have nice 30s or 60s cooldowns but DRK has... a 90s cooldown that you cannot reposition for teleport-to-middle bosses, a 2x charge 60s cooldown, and another singular 60s cooldown before returning to a 1-2-3. I didn't think they could make lower level dungeons even more boring but by the gods they managed to find a way with that blood weapon/delirium merge. Now you can get 3 whole swings even in ARR-HW content!
I've been playing since late shadowbringers. The funny thing about many of the job changes I've seen since then is that many are initially praised. Quality of life is good. Not having "jank" is good. But then eventually people sour on the changes because having some difficulty in your rotation is what makes them fun. I've honestly learned that a lot of what people called "jank" is actually just like, having to think about your buttons at all. I keep seeing scholar being called janky for things like not being able to use dissipation and seraphism at the same time when that's clearly a designed thing that you're meant to play around. I honestly wish Warrior went back to its gap closer costing gauge and inner chaos consuming inner release stacks because that gave warrior any cooldown management at all as opposed to being nearly entirely on rails. The devs want to give players what they want because, in their experience, doing that is what makes the game better. But they need to realize that player demands shouldn't always overrule design intentions and sometimes the players don't actually know what they want. See the complaints about Bozja and now the demand for that exact style of content to see how fickle and shortsighted fans can be. The devs have wanted complexity, unique identities, some jobs to excel and fall short in different areas, but some players have pushed against that and they also happen to be the loudest. They're not all just casuals either. People that want braindead jobs so they can flex their FFlogs scores are absolutely a thing.
As a SCH main who came in around the same time as you... what? WHY would anyone want to use Dissipation and Seraphism at the same time? They're both "nobody dies" buttons! I find it silly that we have two!
@@TheWickedWizardOfOz1SCH's capstone skills have always had an issue of clashing with eachother. Dissipation, Aetherpact, and Summon Seraph all directly conflict with eachother's use. And while it does make sense as part of the calculus of using Dissipation, that has it's own problwm of conflicting with _itself_ by giving us 3 stacks of Aetherflow but only buffing GCD heals, and also if those stacks are used before the fairy comes back then they don't contrubite to the gauge for Aetherpact. Also why the hell can't Seraph use some form of Aetherpact?
@Riyshn I agree with all of this and I would like to add seraph has it's own fae blessing and the other one but it's purely cosmetic despite them having their own icons. I would the serph to work more like Bahamut where the transformed buttons actually have different values.
Yuuup, I tried to explain this to people when they couldn't understand why I wasn't excited about resource-giving buttons no longer being able to overcap gauges. Like sure, it's nice not to worry about overcapping mana when pressing manafication (for example). It didn't particularly add much complexity, and it's not like the rotation has changed much now. ...but every small piece of friction (/jank) adds up. If you file them all off then the jobs play themselves, play the same, and any potential for optimisation goes out the window. That doesn't mean all friction & jank is good, of course, it just means that you have to be careful and wary not to go too far.
@@Elendrial and ironically the one job that _needed_ the gauge/buff change didn't get it. DNC has the exact same problem of random resource generation between Tillana and Tech that MNK's Brotherhood had, and it got nothing to mitigate it.
When there's a 50 meter gap between you and your role's competition, you can always count on Square to give you a 10 meter bridge and pat themselves on the back.
I didn't pick up Black mage to play a streamlined class, I picked it to have something to chew on and really work with to make as good as possible. Continual streamlining, smoothing, and simplifying of classes makes me less and less interested in playing the game.
I agree 100%. I believe that they're thinking that them dumbing down jobs makes the game more inclusive, which just isn't how any of this works. If you try to please everyone, you'll please no one as a result. I think that every role should probably have a difficulty scale which correlates with damage dealt. SMN shouldn't even come close to BLM damage if played properly as an example
@Noel_Tamura I agreed with that idea for the longest time but if you look at heavensward, which had drastic damage differences in jobs, jobs were outright banned from pfs and the games overall health was horrible because of it and other dev issues
This is why I quit in 4~ weeks into DT. I want to heal but I don't want to have to literally lobotomize myself or only do blind prog to have fun playing healer (A had some hope for the game going in the right direction with the double sage dots which was swiftly crushed). At the end of EW I finally had gotten the hang of BM only for SE to remove complexity so I didn't want to play that. Samurai still didn't get Kaiten back so I refused to play that. Summoner got a new coat of paint but no real gameplay changes. Red mage was essentially the same EW. Tried picto and got bored after a few weeks (was pretty fun to remove aetherhues though but I knew it was going to get removed). Was going to level up Bard to max level and try it but I thought to myself "Why would Bard be any harder or more fun and what is preventing SE from making it more 'streamlined' in the pursuit of making it easier?" so I just quit. Managed to have fun in EW because I constantly swapped jobs whenever I got bored and ShB because I loved the old summoner and 2.5 full cast healers. Currently seeing what is happening I feel justified in my decision and that I made the right choice.
@@Noel_Tamura You may not have been around for Heavensward when certain jobs were straight banned from prog because they just didn't do enough on the dos charts.
I kind of agreed at the start of DT, but I'm having a lot of fun with BLM in SphenEx right now. I honestly think the fire paradox change is great now. Still wishing they'd go back to thundercloud instead of thunderhead, though.
@@Bismarck9871 The cards was my favourite part before DT, now they're annoying. But I grant that a lot of people thought the old cards were annoying. Also there were no reason to remove dijurnal sect, other than risking other jobs being jealous of it's flexibility.
@@Bismarck9871 The cards are mostly useless now. Absolutely the most mindboggling change. When we said it was a little too busy, we didn't mean we wanted them to gut the job entirely. We just wanted a weave or two removed.
I'm pretty new and I like the simpler jobs more, but there absolutely needs to be jobs that are complex and benefit from skill expression woth higher results.
Then there's me who has 5k hours in the game, mains summoner and still get my ass beat by midcore stuff xD. i appreciate simpler jobs. i find it hard to deal with mechanics that go kinda fast, which tends to be a lot of the newer stuff i think.summoner is the only job that lets me focus on the mechanics more than a rotation so i manage at least.
This! If I tank it’s on warrior, heal with white mage and dps on summoner. I do enjoy the other jobs but my brain can’t focus on rotations and mechanics that are getting twitchier by the patch. In the old content there are decent amounts of breaks within a fight to reorganize yourself and get back on track if you lose focus. The new stuff is one thing after another with the tank buster being the only “break” then back to disco floors and laser lights. I like complexity. I hate brain melt.
@@cheesecannon1519 Complete ag0ree with you as well. I like having a simplified option for every role b/c I WANT to be able to do all the role quests for story not LOCKED OUT b/c say ALL the healer jobs are super complex to please the people on healer strike.
Back in June, an interview regarding the oversimplification of jobs led to this interaction with director Yoshi P: "some fans remark that they 'don't think it's possible for them to make jobs any simpler than they are.' Thankfully, Yoshi-P is well aware of this sentiment, as is the rest of the Final Fantasy 14 team. In our interview with the developer, he promises that jobs like SAM 'won't be simplified any further...'" Yet here we are, 5 months later, with most jobs indeed getting more simplified. At this point, I feel that the combat design team seem to have an obsession with erasing nuance and simplifying job design and will only continue to do so patch after patch. Imagine thrifting an old, wooden coffee table. That coffee table has a lot of character, but also some wear and tear, so you decide to sand the table in an effort to remove that wear and tear, but rather than stopping once that wear and tear has been removed, you continue to sand down the coffee table, stripping it of all its character and personality. And even when you have a nearly frictionless tabletop, you keep going and continue sanding it down further and further. At what point do you no longer have a table left? I haven't played DT because the character and the personality of the jobs is so sanded down that it's no longer an enjoyable experience to me, and 7.1 has given me no reason at all to want to return. To make healer jobs at least a little more enjoyable to play, they could have tried to address the power gap of White Mage and Sage by doing things like reducing the cooldown of Presence of Mind to 60 seconds and reducing the cooldowns of Phlegma and Psyche to 20 and 30 seconds respectively. But no, all you get is to further inflate the already swollen potencies of your filler GCDs, which adds even more pressure to maximize DPS with every GCD cast I might add. What breaks my heart is that we absolutely could've had a healthy middle ground where jobs are very easy to pick up and play at a base level, but still have those elements of nuance and optimization that allow experienced players to push further and be rewarded with more dynamic gameplay as a result. But every patch makes it evidently clear that SE has no intention of achieving a middle ground. They do not want players like myself or others who enjoy gameplay nuance, choice, and decision making to continue playing their game.
At this stage, it feels like any examples of simplification amount to nitpicks at best by the people who complain about them--not elements that make those particular jobs unpalatable. Yet it's the constant erasing of all these things that is making those jobs unpalatable to the people who like nuance and thought in their gameplay. Really, I'd say that's been the case for over half a decade at this point.
Honestly getting complex mechanics is not a good trade off for easy af jobs. One only affects high end content, the other every piece of battle content + mastering a job feels more rewarding than a random fight imo
I even feel that those encounters are suffering, as right now, you might as well treat your class as a 'select a character' in an arcade cabinet and fight a battle that's completely agnostic to the job designs. Everyone is capable of being able to dodge attacks and stack with partners, but when's the last time you had to do something job specific like have a phys range kite an add around an arena?
So I'm a savagte raider GNB main, and I have to disagree with you a bit. I didn't have a problem with double down before, but the change actaully INCREASED cart management potential. Before, GNB's rotation had no creativity - it was all a strict rotation with no decision making. Now, when to use burst strike and hypervelocity to make sure you aren't entering a 2 minute with 3 carts, but always entering both your one minute and 2 minute with 2 carts, actually gives some interesting choices to make, especially with forced disconnects that are long enough to require a GCD lightning shot in play. It *does* make the job more accessibler, but I need to actually manage my carts now rather than just... do my rotation forever.
I was once a long time smn player. Played it from ARR - SHB. When Endwalker came around my class went from having some decent difficulty to play to being basically phys range with it barely having to cast. I would kill to go back to hw smn. I have since moved to drg but even tho removing two nastronds per min isn't too big of a deal I know 8.0 is gonna gut that job now.
The irony that SMN is labeled " Caster " when I as SAM Cast more times then SMN... perhaps not in total seconds of cast-time throughout an engagement? but its both funny and sad... I'm essentially half a Caster =u=;
Make jobs exciting/flavorful/satisfying/fun? & Content = amplified. But Make Jobs simple/bland/flavorless/boring? & we rely heavily on content... multiply this by the last patch or expansion you can recall any depth being added to your Job besides another (copy-pasted) shiny button with a sparkly affect that lacks half a braincell of engagement? and it gets worse, even more so when " how mechanic vomit something is " i.e raiding/high-end content? isn't even what the majority of the players statistically engage with. Players statistically 100% of the time? interact with " Jobs "
Actually a really interesting take. If general gameplay / combat is fun, any content becomes way more engaging without it having to be overly complicated
@@Noel_Tamura Most players who desire Jobs to be more satisfying? aren't demanding players to require a PHD degree to play Jobs from lv1... But if what a lot of players argue for " mechanical difficulty increase? " then Square shouldn't just do it at Ultimate/Savage which makes up only 5% at best of the total combat Content available? but also every Dungeon/Mobpack/Average Fate/MSQ/Roulette/Extreme/Alliance Raids etc, which won't happen cause it treads on Average players where as Job mastery can be made optional
@@Noel_Tamura That is why WoW is successful as it has been, snappy responsive and diverse gameplay= more fun across the board. Doesn't stop people from complaining but it means they get more out of the content that is there.
As someone who started in ShB and mained and loved DRG throughout it, even doing my first savage tier on it, I am sad to say that as far as I'm concerned, the job I loved is gone. EW already kinda sucked a lot of the fun out of the job with the introduction of the 2 min meta, since it meant that the more dynamic life usage to go with you 3 distinct damage CDs was gone in favor of just using it every minute, but the DT changes have just been the last few nails in the coffin. While the 2 minute meta might have made eye management trivial, DT erased that and didn't replace it with anything, jumps were replaced by pretty underwhelming "glide", Nastrond management was made simpler since Life went from being 30s with a 10s Nastrond to a 20s buff with 2s Nastrond. But now, with 7.1 removing two Nastrond charges, in addition to the rest, Life of the Dragon feels so empty, making me wonder why the Life Gauge is even still there. Not to mention that playing DRG below 80, your big 1min burst that comes with you Life is... a single Nastrond. After all these "ease of use" changes, we're left with a job that has no real resource management. While your burst are still busy, the filler between those burst is completely empty since the job's damage buttons are now solely cooldown based, there's no resource to build for your upcoming burst or dynamic life windows. As sad as I am to say, I no longer see myself playing DRG for the rest of this expansion. And I not holding my breath that they'll use all the space they gave the job to add anything meaningful in 8.0. People had the same hopes about EW SMN being at least a good new base to build up from, but it basically received 0 addition in DT outside of cosmetic ones.
But they won't. New classes/jobs are the big draws in the MMO market. Marketing research has shown that what brings people back to a major expansion or patch is to try new champions/characters/jobs/classes/etc. As such they are trapped in a cycle of needing to adding new jobs as it is the golden standard and to NOT do it means the game is "dying" or entering "maintenance mode"
I think the only thing I would complain about with Dragoon is that the AoE combo steps need to unlock earlier. Only getting the 1st step at level 40 is just not on! Then we have to wait until 62 and 72 for the other 2.
Rant incoming I’m ok with jobs being simple, I just want them to have more identity. I feel like the only differences we have on jobs now is how we earn and spend our gauge. There needs to be more uniqueness in terms of what a character can do. I realize that it may get more difficult to balance as time goes on, but we are making our jobs too similar. Most recent case? DRK losing plunge for the same ability that MNK and now DRG. How long until Ninja loses shikuchi for the same ability for the sake of balance? And on the other side of the balancing coin, giving jobs abilities to match what others have also complicates things for job identity. Every tank having gap closers is cool but now having one feels compulsory and losing it like DRK (I’m not lying when I say my DRK is level 60) is horrible. I’m just frustrated because I feel like there’s only 3 jobs: Tank, Healer, DPS
Please, for the love of god, don't give the balance team any more bad ideas. NIN is the last job I have out of the three that I enjoy that still mostly retains what makes it fun for me. Busy burst, insane movement/adjusting potential, cool looking moves etc. Removing shukuchi would straight up tear out one of the things it excels at which is being able to adjust insanely well on the fly, whilst also removing the only unique movement option in the game. They already removed the last bit of "jank" it had in TCJ, which I honestly liked having to decide during pulls where to use it based on the mechs. Was it a healthy change? Sure. But do I like it? No. Anyone who played NIN for Savage and Ults just worked around it so it could have stayed imo.
@ well said. I enjoy the Jank, it forces you to think about what you’re doing. They’re making the game so insanely easy to play it’s becoming an issue.
I find that drg is actually more complicated now. They basically made mirage dive smuggling twice as valuable, which makes it much more important to do, and to me, that is way more difficult than just pressing a couple of extra buttons every two minutes. It's a weird decision.. and imo a bad one.
There are occasional issues where when you used old Superbolide, there could be a brief lag between you hitting 1 hp and the invuln applying itself. So like, if an auto attack hit you in the 1/4 of a second between you hitting 1 and going invuln, you'd just die.
Im going to go on the opposite side, I personally think job simplification is a good thing TO THE EXTENT IT IS NOW, only a small amount of the playerbase would benefit from really hard jobs to play, and designing a job to be super hard to play at even a mediocre level just means the more casual playerbase would just be locked out of that job, but theres another level, if you are progging thru a new fight, very few, if any people would want to bring a super difficult job to a new difficult fight, and those few would after their partie's 137th wipe will start complaining how the game had a super big difficulty spike and all kinds of other stuff, I would rather all jobs be simple with a bit of a learning curve and fun to execute than having the thought over my head that "oh but this job does way more damage after you spend 3 months learning it" not to mention what many have said, that the simplification allows encounters to be much more complex, hell just look at the alliance raid that just released, the simplification lets even normal content have a bit more bite to it. Basically what Im saying is when you are watching the ultimate prog soon, try to think how many more times they could've wiped to damage checks due to a ludicrously complex job that they're playing because it can do more damage than other jobs.
You're taking complexity to the extreme which isn't what's being asked for. If you watched his video from the other day, stormblood scholar is the perfect example. The decision on whether or not you can fit in a use of miasma 2 is a great example of complexity. If you don't do it, you're still doing an acceptable job. If you can pull it off, you're *excelling*. The floor can stay where it is and that's great! Jobs should be accessible. But, there should be opportunities to grow and shine and make decisions and sometimes those can fail. But still, the option is so much fun, no? If you're not comfy just don't press miasma 2 in a raid encounter, problem solved. No skin off anyone's back
@@Alix_Farin That I do agree with, complexity in optimization is totally fine so long as the floor is relatively similar, and I do think that's what they're going to go for in 8.0, but many people ask for there to be jobs that are way more complex to execute properly at a basic level, and that, to me atleast, is a bad idea, since if they do that and the damage is lower than simpler jobs, the vast majority will not play it since it's more work for a lesser result, while if the damage ceiling is higher by a large amount to compensate for it's difficulty, PFs (which is what a good chunk of the playerbase uses) will only really want that job for that slot in clear parties. Again, making a job designed to shut out people not able to keep up with it leads to a hardly used job, hell just look at EW BLM if you want proof of that.
While I personally liked EW blm and think that there's a few examples that are better suited to the argument, I'm glad we could reach a middle ground. Keep on keepin on friend
I think you might be misrepresenting the black mage changes as if they've introduced an entirely new "viable" rotation. From what I understand, there are now "non-standard lines," which are weaker than what we had in EW. But these lines are a dps gain in certain situations when you have the resources required to pull them off. Overall BLM has got a very slight dps buff and, once again, another buff to mobility. We aren't beating the broken leg allegations, folks.
When job changes are made, one needs to remember, that it is impossible to please everyone. There will always be those, who want some things about jobs to be easier to use, and then there are those who don't. Trying to find a perfect balance here among millions of players is a mathematical nightmare.
The MCH changes are nowhere near enough nor the ones the job desperately needs. Physical Ranged in general needs a rework and at this point I don't think they will ever do anything about it until it gets so bad that groups are no longer taking the role. They are just not listening and not testing the game themselves at the office.
Wild to say they aren't testing when clearly they do test, otherwise nothing would be as polished as it is. What an emotional response to a video game.
I like the change to esuna, not only related to Alexander where you have enough time to esuna everyone, but mainly for cleanses like in p12s where you needed to time your esuna pretty well as the tanks kept getting stacks and i wanted it to apply at a certain moment (just when the stacks capped out)
I don't really think jobs have gotten much easier since SHB. Some have, certainly, but I think most have stayed around the same. SHB really was the turning point of job design and difficulty, and I think the majority of players, both casual and hardcore, are fine with and enjoy most jobs how they are today (except maybe the healer role). Personally, I think most DPS jobs are fine and offer a variety of gameplay, uniqueness, and difficulty, but Warrior/Dark Knight and the entire healer role are in dire need of adjustments. They've kept their word on the design changes they wanted DT to have, so I'm quite curious and optimistic about what they will come up with for jobs in 8.0!
Half the video is good things and we're using clickbait titles "Jobs in FFXIV Keep Getting Simpler". Yeah, no. Why can't we be honest and just say "How the 7.1 Job Changes turned out"? Most "Ease of Use" changes are things that people have complained about for a while that can realistically be addressed, and even in the video "SAM and BLM have more choices". Title doesn't reflect that. We literally see the devs listening to feedback and making changes, but they aren't getting credit. TCJ was absolutely miserable to use in high movement fights, especially with the recent raid tier where burst would often align with movement heavy sections. The biggest criticism I have about the state of the game is that I think most jobs could use to be a little more busy during non-burst windows, and a little less in their burst windows. 4 jobs are ease of use. 2 jobs have more choices, while the vast majority have adjustments according to feedback. To say "Jobs in FFXIV Keep Getting Simpler", is not a balanced take. It's misleading and only furthers the narrative that the devs aren't listening and don't care, only catering to making the game as easy as possible. It's so hyper focused on one aspect that it misses the forest for the trees. If jobs were to become more complicated, would a video be made about how damaging it is to the bulk majority of the userbase? I don't think so, because even in this video when it was done, it was an afterthought, said once and not mentioned again. I'm really starting to lose faith in our content creators integrity. It's becoming very arrogant, borderline narcissistic. Not just in this video, but other videos (Meoni encouraging the devs to lie about the contest) and podcasts where it feels like viewpoints outside of the top percentile just don't matter (State of the Realm, Mogtalk). I have never felt less interest in beinga part of the community than now, and it's not because of the jobs. It's because everything is just drama and hyperbolic rhetoric. It's miserable.
There was a similar comment under a recent video, where without trying to make it sound rude, it's a You-problem for the ultimate raiders that want to keep climbing a mountain, but they are already at the top and there is nothing to climb left. Making the game artificially more complex for a tiny group of players doesn't seem right. I also checked the JP forums and they are not even aware of these dicussions happening here.
@@NightpireVideos Thank god people are saying it. Motherfuckers make FFXIV their literal entire life and then complain that its too easy. Meanwhile mom with five children wants to sit down and heal a raid without needing a PHD and 17 fingers.
If you want all that money from casual players, its a good idea. Same with new players. For vets who want more from the same game 10+ years later? Not so much. The answer will lie ultimately in sub retention/gains over time. If they make more money, it was a good idea. If the make less money, it was not a good idea. That's all SE execs care about, so that's the metric I'll use to make my determination, because "what I want" as a player doesn't really matter. XIV is the breadwinner for SE. We're not going to see risks anymore, unless the risks are "how much of the budget can we strip from the game while retaining profitability?" I've voted with my wallet, after 10 years of a sub fee. They made plenty off me already.
but the new player and casuals are 80% of the game and dotn be a lair it not veteran player is HARDCORE and some not all midcore veterans are mostly casuals players too .
I'm a Samurai main, I think it's currently really in a good spot right now. I'm also apparently part of the minority that thought Viper on release was leagues more fun than what it is now. I've only been playing since Shadowbringers, but I've been becoming less interested in branching out to become competent at multiple jobs because things feel more homogeneous nowadays. I'm not saying everything feels the same, but more same-y. I've been feeling less attached to the battle content overall, and in all honesty I don't have a lot of confidence that it'll be much better in 8.0. It's not bad, I just want more to be asked of me, which doesn't necessarily seem to be what's happening with what the devs have been pushing. It's also not necessarily what the majority of people want, going off the conversations I've had about balancing. I like failure states, I like there being clear indicators of skill in play. Things like Superbolide going from setting you to 1 hp to 50% irk me because it's just less personal responsibility, less reason to interact with your teammates or coordinate instead of just pressing a button. Is it quality of life? Sure, but it all comes together to make completing duties feel less rewarding to me. I understand that people have been saying they want the difficulty to come from the duties, not the jobs, but I'm not really seeing that happening. Even if it does happen, I feel like it'll just make each job feel less interesting. I still play battle content regularly, I still enjoy the game, and I think I will for the foreseeable future, I'm just not that optimistic about it giving me that sense of fulfillment I felt figuring out Viper on release in any foreseeable context, even if people continue to rag on me for feeling that way. Really though, Sam does feel good right now.
I wish you could toggle off the raise from RDM and get a damage increase for it, it feels a bit deflating that it's harder to play/optimize than PCT but won't ever touch that level of damage, even if you don't end up using those raises. Not sure why they're even in the same role, the gap between PCT/RDM damage at 80th percentile in this Savage tier is 1853rdps while the gap between Tank, Healer, Melee DPS, and Ranged DPS's best and worst classes combined is 1950rdps.
Having a raise is far less useful in harder content too where body checks are frequent. Me having verraise does nothing when the boss wants 8 people alive
@@Pets_Cats That, and swiftcast's 40 seconds, so healers can raise even more often. Less of a reason for the caster to do it unless both healers are dead.
One day we will just have an auto play button that runs through the rotations for us. Casual players will somehow still complain that the jobs are too complex.
Ninja doku being a cone is nice for the aoe potential but also great because its range went from 3 to 8 yalms so you're way less likely to drift your 2 mins due to having to step out of melee (which has already proven useful in Byakko unreal's 2nd burst window). Now they just gotta uncrease kunai bane's range by a little bit and it'll be perfect :3
And yet, combat keeps getting more complex. Did the 24 man, it was abject misery. And since there's NOTHING ELSE for a casual player like me to do, I cancelled my sub. 10 years I've been with this game, and I'm just done. This DDR ARPG Dark Souls BS is more than too much for me and I'm done with it. I liked old school methodical plan, not whatever twitch reflex with "die to learn" tells this nonsense is. You guys can have it.
"Ease of access" Shouldn't mean "Just press the button" Ten Chi Jin being able to move with it IS nice, but now you dont have consequences for choosing a shitty place when you use it
I think the change was to mitigate the amount of accidental TCJs that got wiped because the NIN moved an inch due to misinput. I do agree there could’ve a better way to handle this though, like making TCJ immobilize or 99% heavy and KB Immune you. Foolproofs you from accidental oopsies and still puts you at risk when you use it.
Job are getting more simple because the combot in FF XIV is less about skill complexity and varriation and more about rhythm. It's a rhythm game, always stay on the right place at the right time and missing the time window gives you a penalty. More complext jobs would make the rhythm more difficult and unreliable, that's why jobs get simpler. At least this is how i see the design philosophy of the devs. That and they want as many people to be able to play the jobs as possible, regardless how much knowledge they have, better keeping everything more accessible. They could make real accessibility option for people who struggle for any reason with the jobs and still make jobs with a higher skill curve. But this needs more work and more people in that field to consult them. I can only imagen that the FF XIV team is so small that they can't afford the extra work to realize more nuances when it comes to job design and combat. Which is crazy if you think about how much money FF XIV makes and how much Square Enix threw money out of the window by selling their most money making studios way under value.
The thing that annoys me with the BLM changes was that the buffs to Flare, Despair, and Ley Lines by themselves would have been great and helped bridge the gap between BLM and PCT, something that I hope we can all agree needs to happen if Picto is meant to be the new baseline for casters. But that Enochian nerf... it's just 1% and overall it's a damage gain, but think about it: they did not need to do that. Why did they do that? What is the purpose? Is there some fourth-dimensional chess happening? Or are they scared of making the class too powerful? Or could they just not know what they're doing.
Personally not a fan of the double down change just because I used lion heart before gnashing fang, meaning it was less likely to lose out on raid buffs and it made it so that you could enter each burst with two cartridges (three on one minutes if your skillspeed and uptime allowed it). Now I have to alternate 1 or 0 cartridges and 3 for two and one minutes respectively, which is a little annoying. It also makes my melee combos finish at strange times relative to where they used to be.
11:00 I get the idea behind this, but I do think that the change for double down costing only one cartridge was a good change. Reason for this is the 1 minute burst. If you had to use one ranged attack anywhere between 2 minute and 1 minute burst, that would make either your Gnashing Fang or Double Down drift. This is because you will need that 3 cartridges going into 1 minute burst. With your gcd speed (I'm using the faster one), you would have just enough time to get 1 cartridge for Gnashing Fang at 30sec mark and 3 more for the 1 min burst. This would only happen if you'd get full greed during that time tho. Gnb isn't my main tho, so I could be wrong as well.
I kinda miss noxious gnash. It made me think about doing my rotation correctly. It was not hard to keep it up once you got the flow of it. Plus it was like a "poison" for the snake themed class ya know? Now Viper essentially got defanged. They could have done some other change instead of straight up removed it and so shortly after release too. I still play it because I do like the animations and I already grinded out gear for it. Just kinda makes me feel worried about the changes they make.
I don't think rotations need to be complex for the gameplay to be deep. DPS rotations aren't hard - boss mechanics are. Doing DPS rotations without failing boss mechanics is a form of skill, but that still mostly comes from the mechanics - NOT the rotation. Most abilities are just "This deals damage!" There's differences in how much potency and how the ability is limited: cooldown, resource cost, charges, combo actions, etc. Sometimes those abilities have a secondary effect/requirement: range, applies a buff/debuff, generates a resource, positionals, etc. But... you still have like 15 buttons saying "I do damage!" Meanwhile, Genshin players swap between 4 characters that each have an Attack chain, a Charged Attack, a Passive, a Skill, and a Burst... and that's it. You pretty much only have 2 "abilities" plus your basic light/heavy attacks. And those Skills and Bursts have quite a few variations, from the type of elemental damage to the actual effect it has. So you could *pretend* Genshin Impact has 4 basic Skills that do basic stuff, to build up energy for 4 special Burst abilities. And it can get pretty wild despite that simplicity because those devs will get VERY creative with what the buttons actually do beyond just... "I do damage!" Or you could look at Monster Hunter World. You don't HAVE special abilities on a bar. It differs depending on the weapon, but you mostly have just light and heavy attacks and combo them in different ways (or else ammo, or hold the attack for a different action). The skill needed can vary from the ease of dual blade attack spam to the complex burst combo of charged blade. I think it's time that we move beyond the WoW style of MMO combat. It's grown stale.
after over 1000 hours, i can finally admit to myself that i've grown pretty sour with job design in this game. "simplification" aside, i actually think jobs can be annoyingly busy and complicated now. the devs seem to have thought at one point that a giant list of buttons that have so little impact on their own is the identity to strive for. now when they try to trim some of that fat, people go ape and complain about simplification. they dug themselves into that hole. it's why they make new jobs simpler and more easily effective instead of facing the backlash from finding a better vision for existing jobs. seems like difficulty only comes from the mental gymnastics of dealing with mechanics and/or teammates while maintaining your absolutely spastic rotations (healers exempt from that part). fun is subjective and i don't like requiring adderall brain to play this game at max level anymore. especially when other mmo's have been packing weighty and fulfilling combat for years now. i just wish 14 could follow suit without the ball and chain that is this community sometimes. feel free to flame me for my opinion but while i care for this game a lot, i doubt they will ever find the balance that it used to have between functionality, accessibility and fantasy.
as irrelevant as the SMN changes are, it's got to be the most indicating for the future. Gone are the days of "5 minutes to learn the job, 15minutes to master it" Now it's 5minutes for both I feel like SMN in particular is a good indication that they want stuff to get easier and keep it easier and didn't do stuff in preperation for 8.0. That's been a theory with SMN all this time: "yeah it has to few buttons but it's clearly a clean slate that will get more stuff in 7.0 and 8.0!"... and then it didn't at all
I can't help but feel a touch paranoid about the fact that the biggest amounts of pruning to the jobs conveniently coincided with the timeframe where Yoshi mentioned work on the mobile version of the game started.
nope they've been dumping down jobs since shadowbringers and the mobile version will be its own separate game made on a different engine so it wouldn't make any sense that mobile affects the main game
Yeah i gotta say I don't like the TCJ change. I get people don't like accidentally cancelling it cause it snapshotted their movement. But for me i would rather see it plant u in place with no option to move at all (give it knockback immunity if its necessary) to keep to cool flavour of it while making it function as intended. Big L for me. Let me make decisions in my characters kit squenix I hate this design trend.
Personally I would have gone with a Ley Lines solution where you have a teeny tiny little circle that gives you the buff. Accidentally twitching won't break the combo but you also can't *really* move around while using it.
I think the disappointment for me is how 6.1 patch was one of the best ever non-expansion release patches and 7.1, which came after 7.05 (no 7.08) significantly underdelivered on the expectations. The balance is absolutely atrocious; PCT is still absurd, stronger than BLM while being easier to play and having shielding and healing for the party, whereas BLM literally has none of those because it's supposed to be the crazy high DPS one. AST is still kilometres ahead of other healers. DNC is still clunky because of Tillana recast.
Patch 6.1 was the " Worse " for me.... because of " Hissatsu: Kaiten " removal along side other simplifications with Samurai that could account as Quality of Life? but it made it that much dumber to play Samurai... as well as the implementation of Auto Crits that on its initial release? was terribly under-performing, only for them to hot fix it? leading to me always critically striking which is great on paper... but now I just never feel like I crit-strike at all cause I always crit-strike...it never since then felt special, it has always felt weightless to me
The recast isn't the big problem with Tillana, it's the +50 gauge in the middle of Tech already giving you unpredictable amounts. It really needs to be eithera Saber Dance Ready buff or get the MNK/Brotherhood treatment.
I’m in the minority that thinks job simplification is a good thing. Mostly because of hotbar bloat. Healers in desperate need of some sort of engagement.
Listen everyone my mom plays this game and she is 67, she doesn't need or want a complicated rotation simplify things for casuals like my mom, yoshi-PLEASE!
probably in the minority here which sucks, but the gnb double down change finally dumbed down the job too much for me to even enjoy or have fun playing it. been already salty about the rough divide change, because to me the fun of playing the job was having to do so many weaves and having to plan out ur rotation and mits without dying/clipping. i also liked gnashing being a 3 button combo and now its one (i know a lot of people don't care or prefer it this way, but for me pressing 1 button is mind numbing and i don't think its interesting.). i know a lot of people compare it to ShB gnb, but ShB gnb had a 90s cooldown and the rotation felt more engaging because of it, than ur now constant same rotation. u literally cant fuck anything up now except if u go into no mercy with 3 bullets and dont spend the last one before using bloodfest. honestly i just don't get the philosophy myself. I was having a blast finally getting to do dsr because i found people to do it with, and patch drops in between prog days and i just dont even feel like playing the game anymore. kinda sucks that the only opinion u're allowed to have is "make every job simple and make hard mechanics". like if i just wanted to do hard mechanics without actually playing a fun job, i might as well just go play the simulator for ultimates... think the game is just not for me anymore and i doubt its gonna became any better, so imma just let my sub run out here.
I just wish there was a way to keep skill expression and difficulty while massively cutting down on button bloat. Even if jobs are technically easier now, I am much worse than I used to be. I just dont have the dexterity to be tip tapping halfway across my keyboard and 3 modifier buttons anymore. There was an attempt with Viper, which I appreciate. But they made it basically impossible to screw up and still felt the need to simplify it more. So I just dont know if its possible or if they're even capable.
I completely agree. I cleared ucob on ninja, but due to physical disability I can't play the job at level 90+ because there are just...too many buttons! being able to put the basic combo onto one button (the way things are in pvp) would make the job WAY more accessible to me, without changing anything else about it. viper may be boring, but it's painless for me to get my fingers around. for that reason it's become my main melee lately, even if I'd be more engaged playing something else.
i switched from ninja to dark knight some time in 7.0. before switching i did arcadion, ucob uwu and tea all on ninja. Im really mad about this change, imo it ruins how fun the burst was, having to pick a spot to tcj during it just felt so cool, now its just a boring skill
I'm pretty happy with most of the changes, I'm only indifferent for jobs I haven't played yet. I think it's weird to praise things like increased healer range but then not liking Ten Chi Jin no longer canceling on movement. To me the old TCJ was a _major_ friction point, as my favorite things about Ninja are its versatility and mobility. The stationary TCJ made everything screech to a halt for a 3-second channel and was especially bad in dungeon pulls, where you need to put Doton down amidst chaotic aoe's. Similarly, as a healer main I am ecstatic about the Superbolide change! No more wasted Essential Dignity, or Benediction, or Excog. The "reduce to 1 hp" is very interesting on paper, but in most contexts (meaning, for most of the playerbase) it was just a frustration that added no enjoyment. The thing is, I agree that most jobs are too streamlined right now. But that goes hand-in-hand with current encounter design, which I also have a problem with. Dawntrail _mainstream_ content has leaned more and more into chaotic messes and extended memory tests, seemingly as a way to counteract job streamlining. But this has increased the skill requirements for everyone without a way to opt out, unlike jobs where you can always switch to an easier option. My husband hates half of all Dawntrail bosses because of this--and the only respite he gets is whatever time spent on the floor before the next Raise. My point is, the devs need to balance for lots of kinds of people, and we're in a particularly rough spot in that regard. Not _every_ ease of use change is bad. Here's hoping we don't have to wait too long for things to get ironed out.
Fun fact about tcj doton: if you shukuchi right after casting doton, your character will teleport and place the puddle at their new location. It's less useful now since you can just move while doing tcj but it's still fun to do it :D
thing is on the base level i don't think any xiv job is hard to use, they already felt very same-y and now i don't feel anythign when swapping jobs in the same role sob emoji
While I understand there should be complexity in job design, the “complexity” in FFXIV has always been in clunky design. It’s not satisfyingly complex like offering you decision making in your rotation or taking advantage of combos from allies, no. It’s always been clunky, outdated mechanics. Take SCH for example, is the complexity thoughtful or is it clunky? I would say clunky and always has been. You have several anti synergy skills, the fairy gauge is a mess and its integration with the rest of the kit is non existent. While I am no WoW player, I have always been enamoured with their job design which is truly complex. There are build choices, decision making with rotation and cooldown usage and taking advantage of synergies with your teammates. That is complexity. Scholar losing access to pet skills to be able to stop moving and hard cast shit is not complexity that’s just clunky design. The same with aetherbond rooting the fairy and cancelling the tether on other ability execution. All for what? 200P ticks? SE just needs to step into 2024. There are so many MMOs like GW2 and WoW with better combat systems that are truly dynamic. I love this game and how active it is and how it respects my time. I just wish classes weren’t so absolutely devoid of any character or flavour. All the combat complexity is in dodging mechanics and there is none in the classes themselves.
But WoW job balance is non-existent with classes regularly deemed weak and inferior. Each class, that's actually considered viable, has a single spec you are expected to play. Options are nothing more than an illusion in WoW.
@ First of all there are no unviable classes in WoW just like FFXIV. Meta slaves will always be meta slaves. That’s a player issue not a balance issue. Even high level FFXIV has meta slaves that want specific comps for the 1-2% differences. Secondly, it doesn’t take away from anything else I said. Their combat is miles ahead of FFXIV. Even GW2 combat is miles ahead of anything FFXIV has to offer. In search of this magic middle ground where meta slaves don’t have anything to complain about SE just keeps homogenising all the classes until this point where they are truly interchangeable and for the worst reasons. Add to that the “complexity” is just clunk from 1.0 era and you have a real problem on your hands. The only thing that saves combat is how busy encounter design is at high levels so players have something else to focus on. But even then once you know the content you cannot help but notice how bland your class is.
@@stormkeeper1741 WoW balance is non existent, meanwhile the DPS logs look the same as FFXIV and there's even more players playing the "weak and inferior" jobs than in high end content than the "bad jobs" in FFXIV.
Honestly dark mind being objectively better than camo/bul/thrill (even though I think bulwark is still the best) is fine when tbn is very unusable on autos during prog and carve & split heal is situationally good unlike aurora, equilibrium, or even the req combo + block chance of PLD. drk is still lacking defensively atleast compared to the far superior other tanks who might have too much
Xenos spends the entire EW raid tier crying about double down and how they should change it to one cartridge cost and change the name. Now its a "niche group of players that barely exist and how could Square make such a dumb change!". Its so weird as a normal person looking in to these debates.
I never seen the superbolide > remove buff macro being used. im sure it has happened but i don't think it was a real issue. Maybe it's to prevent it from irritating the healers? that's the best guess i have. as healer main I don't have much experience using it myself, but i know that when i was getting it up to 100 that some healers don't like you using it where as using any of the other invulns is mostly ignored. but that would just be my guess. i think it is a shame it is just half health now. at least make it like 10% or 5%. that way you still have the visual effect of the hp bar being drained. or add a short but strong regen on it. this change to me feels like a bit of identity loss for gunbreaker
yeah ive got 10k+ hours in ffxiv. and between the trickle feeding us content, the unwanted class changes, and the overall change in the community since pre endwalker/wow exodus. ive decided to not play xiv as my main mmo anymore. ima stay subbed and run content with the homies when they ask me too. but i just cant log in every day and still have fun like i used to unfortunately. just too many small things that i dont like all adding up and making me not want to play. and its especially rough due to the fact that i straight up do not enjoy old content for the most part. so there rly is nothing for me as a player who enjoys doing current content while its current. 7.1 dropped and everything could be completed in a couple of hours. we waited 4 months for a couple of hours of fun? idk but now i get why everyone is calling it "Yawntrail"
just gonna pull the pin on the hot take grenade. FFXIV needs talents similar to the ones introduced in MoP or something to provide major augmentation, easy one for ten chi jin is one allows you to move while using it and another makes you stand still but deal more damage (maybe like 15% or so, numbers can be easily tweaked). TBN for DRK, one makes its a free mp cost, 25 sec CD, 15% damage reduction but doesn't give the free edge, the other costs mp but when it pops, the next edge or flood is free, has increased the potency, and is a guaranteed crit. I don't like the idea of some jobs being easy while others should be more complex cause someone's favorite job could get the axe like with summoner being so easy, its a slap in the face to those who mained and practiced its complexity before endwalker. Stormblood was my favorite version of DRK, but after the ShB rework, the job hasn't felt great despite being super easy to play.
Be careful what you wish for. WoW raiders already excluded “suboptimal” builds of the same class since the very beginning of the mmo. Putting specializations that people will optimize the crap out of will only make the problem worse. Don’t forget, Squeenix made BLU a limited job because they knew people would make a “Feather Rain or GTFO” party finder or smth because optimal dps.
The issues are the players. If a job is simple more players will play the job, if that job has good dmg then thats even better. Jobs that are to complex will get booted out for the similar and simple job. This has happen many times. Heck many BLM players moves over to PCT for that reason as its just better BLM. Complex only works if the payout is worth it. But if its too much the these jobs become mandatory. Having a job be hard to play is not always a god thing and often leads to the job being alienation. An if a job is played by like 6% of the player base then its going to get rework. Few players played old Smn and Mnk. I was a old SMN main amd even I know that job had really high bpm. New SMN may be more streamline but it has many more players. Mnk wasn't worth to play as your rotation demanded perfect play, many buff management, and slowed down during down time. Every melee could do what mnk did with less effort. People think having complex jobs will be better both with my time playing this from the start it has never played out that way. These jobs will simply get marked as players to not play with in ex and above content.
I would be more incensed by the Double Down change if you didn't have to plan around Bloodfest in new ways. I think mostly what this change accomplishes is making GNB more flexible, rather than stripping it of its forethought. The way I see it, job design at large is boring not specifically because it's easy, but because it's devoid of interactivity. I can actively solve the problem of having too many carts for my 2 minute by dumping in advance, whereas sometimes you simply couldn't generate enough carts for NM window in fights like DSR or TOP depending on phase pushes. Punishment is good, but punishment with agency is better. Also I would argue this iteration represents release Gunbreaker's design philosophy better than EW's design does.
ShB is the natural end result of that school of thought, which they have doubled and tripled down with in EW, and now quadrupled down in DT. How is that working out, you having fun?
I have a hard time believing people actually want that considering how many people complain about the level 100 dungeons. They're more complex, and people are very vocal about not liking them, even with simpler jobs.
@@Enl1gtend exactly the point with my reply (which is missing for some reason, thanks TH-cam)... If this direction was good and desirable, people would be raving about and loving what ShB/EW/DT have all delivered.
50 mins of the same beatened dead horse...we know why they are making the jobs easier, to encourage new players to savage and up since otherwise it would be ignored...why most hardcore raiders want their jobs to be janky like the old days, they want to lord over people and be the "best" in a janky system...we figured this out already...no need for word salad
Or, hear me out, players are simply tired of every job feeling the exact same. I'm no hardcore raider, but I've played the game enough to experience just how devoid of fun and engagement every job is. There is no satisfaction in rotations anymore, we are losing identity every time they introduce changes, etc. I know they're trying to make up for it with encounter design, but that's nothing more than a band-aid on an every-growing problem. tl;dr continuous homogenization and the 2min meta are nothing but a detriment.
@@Corvus7159 again....what do you want? no one playing your game because your job system sucks or more people playing the game? stormblood tackled that issue very well...but they need to find that middle ground of having uniqueness and homogenization because you dummies think thats what you want...until u get passed over for a job that is meta that brings piercing/slashing....like the old days lol
But if the game sucks shit, and I have to suffer with it sucking shit to be good, that makes me a super hardcore awesome big dick gamer. And if i'm not a super hardcore awesome big dick gamer, I'm nothing :(
This video comes when Azurite is posting "which tank to pick". lmao my poor dude it doesn't matter all classes play the same, only the animation changes 😂
Look i like simple i believe all classes should be able to be played by all people, My issue is class identity too many classes are the same but different animations and honestly looking at some rotations for classes like mch, Mch went from being one of the easiest classes to now have a mile long rotation thats overly complex ive noticed similar rotations with basically all classes minus summoner. But again back to my orginal point i think all classes minus maybe sam and ninja need reworks so they have their own identities and unique playstyles that dousnt mean they should be ball grindingly difficult maybe have some curve to it but nothing that would make it usable for only the "Git gud" elitests
I don't know what "foundation" they are preparing for 8.0 patch to improve job identity. But with each new patch leading to it, all jobs just keep getting more boring. I cannot do DF anymore simply because playing the job is not satisfying anymore. I might as well mash random buttons and still be at the finish line within reasonable time. Failure states are what makes gameplay exciting. If no matter what you do, you still win, what is the point? It is funny how before DT Yoshi mentioned that FF14 is too stress free and that's not good. New patch comes around, they make a lot of jobs even more stress free. Okay...
Jobs are too similar for me, differences used to be more pronounced. Tanks? All the same, just fancy gauges to play with. Buffs are identical, with the same effects just spread out differently. And honestly the same goes for healers now too. I already haven’t played since the beginning of EW. I’m not afraid to wait until jobs feel unique again.
It is all just PR talk. No idea why people think Yoshi P somehow has his finger on the pulse of the playerbase. He has been making bad decisions leading into dawntrail.
BLM does good damage but picto is still overtuned so I'm not sure what they plan to do about that. The non standard rotation will get butchered because that's just not what they want for the job. Especially with their new fancy lvl 100 spell that was made to pull you into standard is getting left in the dust. Don't get me wrong I feel like there should be some regulation on stuff like the 100% instant cast rotation or the flare flare flarestar aoe rotation but I just hope they do not gut all of the nonstandard stuff that makes the job stand out. Little optimizations like these are a form of expression which is being removed so everyone can just do their cookie cutter 6xF4s and go home. Rant over....
This was a bug and was patched in a hotfix shortly after Shadowbringers came out AFAIK (basically it applies the buff before reducing your HP). Holmgang also had a chance to kill you with certain DoTs going through the invuln and was similarly patched a long time ago. The patch notes are also technically not correct regarding Superbolide, it says "Reduces HP by 50% of maximum" and yet skills like Excogitation and Heart of Corundum still proc when you use Superbolide from full HP despite specifically mentioning "when HP falls below 50%" and not when AT 50% HP, so it's more like it reduces your HP by 50.01%.
I find that complexity isn't linked to fun for me. Gunbreaker and Machinist are both simple, but I find Gunbreaker anxiety-inducing because everything needs to line up while MCH is dynamic where buttons WILL drift and its your job to make sure those buttons get hit as often as possible anyway.
This. I fucking LOVE playing warrior viper and reaper. None of them are complex at all, but viper and reaper do get some fun fast bursts without being some overly complicated mess.
I love the developers continuing the march of removing skill expression, nuance, and points of failures with jobs. Let's just make everything near identical to something else (i.e tanks/healers in a nutshell) and as smooth as possible with no friction. I just do not comprehend why jobs are not allowed to be unique and different to each other, even if that means the inevitable tier list meta every parser seems to mald at. Yet, as long as every job is viable then the balance doesn't fucking matter unless you are a world first/speed kill or prog group - which at that point, you are
it almost as if you arent the mayority of this player and hardcore player or midcore what ever you are simple ARENT THE MAYORITY(to be honest causal dont often if at all post on forums so no clue who those ppl are )
@@anteprs7908 The funny thing is it only makes the game more boring. Why not have unique jobs when you can literally swap to any job in an instant on one character? Why swap to a job that is essentially the same thing? This is not WoW where you have to manage alts, so the convenience factor should facilitate more uniqueness, yet here we are.
@jeremywright9511 if THEY BOTHER TO GIVE MORE CASUAL CONTENT CASUAL WOULD STAY SUBBED FOR LONGER when island santuary was i ew a thing many casual keep their sub for it . And no casual sub for 1 to 2 month depending on the amounth of casual content give (right now their is nearly zero content and reson to sub fpr casuals) and they make also 70 to 80% of they playerbase so it the MAIN PROFIT for sure and let not lie and act like hardcore and midcore are subbed 24/7. Maybe if Se bothered to give good casual content to casuals they stayed subbed not midcore content and force them to unsub or do non casual content .maybe if thebstop wasting time on ultimates that nobody does they would get better sub number but dt is proof that bad msq and more annjoying and stressful dung lead to huge sub drops dt fell off 3 week in.
In also saying about a reworked flamethrower, I was talking with a friend and they mentioned, which I agree they should work flamethrower into the blazing shot combo as a finisher removing the channel or even bioblaster or both while increasing the potency on both (still keeping the aoe aspect, but having the first target take maybe 60-70% of the damage). Besides this, obviously need something more than being the bad apple of the dps... something that will make a dramatic change in range's usefulness, because realistically we need something
I don't understand why MCH is still the weakest of the three Phys Ranged after the 7.1 buffs because when I look at fflogs, MCH is above DNC and BRD in all dps category (rDPS, aDPS, nDPS & cDPS). I am not versed in parsing and whatnot but isn't MCH being on top of these 4 parameters means it is better than the other Phys Ranged? Arcadion is the first time I main the Phys Ranged role and while I do play all 3, I find MCH the most fun to play and eventually decided to play it for FRU but I don't wanna cripple my party's dps if it is still the worst job in the game. So what makes DNC and BRD better? Please help a raiding sprout like me 😔
Even without remove buff macros, Superbolide can just panic troll sprouts. Probable explanation . Edit: Also, at least Starry Muse now has parity with Ley Lines. lmao
If we're going down this route either just get it over with and make our bars look like pvp or actually follow through and rework classes in 8.0. I wish they were transparent, I hate this wishy washy will they wont they
Some jobs being simpler is totally fine, the issue most people see is with every job becoming simpler every patch. This may sound elitist but not every job is for everyone and the reward lies in the execution of challenging stuff during an encounter. I will probably never be a good bard because the way the rotation works just completely messes with my brain but that's totally fine. I'll never complain about it and they shouldn't make jobs simpler because some players can't handle the rotation. There are 20 other jobs to choose from, there are no excuses
"complex" is not always good but neither is "simple" black mage has always been complex but that's been a source of enjoyment for many. reaper was designed to be rather simple, but derives a lot of its fun from the flow state it provides, and the discrete adjustments you make to optimize your play people don't like it when a job is made more simple when it flattens a lot of the decisionmaking and excitement that came from the job. likewise, dragoon becoming more rigid and stuffy over the years feels bad. it's certainly still an involved job but so much of the "questions" that job used to ask you feel like they're just gone now even though the job is still so busy and involved
@@Alix_Farin Obviously all the classes wont be the same, each jobs have their own little unique quirks to them, but making classes more simpler isn't a problem in my opinion. The difficulty of the game should come from raids and party optimizations.
The problem is that some people like like complex jobs. Not everything has to be for everyone. In fact, they're still not for everyone. Now they're _not_ for people who like complex jobs. Instead of making everything simple, there should be a variety of simple and complex jobs. Saying that all jobs should be one or the other is selfish.
in a game with such scripted encounter design, such as xiv, unique decision-making and planning per job is where depth and replayability blossoms. they can make content design as difficult as they want, but enjoyment and variety will always be meaningfully bottlenecked by that layer of execution. Single down is incredibly disheartening for me.
I actually came to the opposite conclusion, while sharing your premise. The extremely scripted encounters and limited nature of interacting with bosses doesnt leave much room in creative job design. Attacks cant be dodged, bosses cant be incapacitated, animation length and attack range does not matter, combat has been reduced to a single output, which is dps, there is zero room for utility. So bosses are tightly designed around that dps output. Every job needs to be able to dance the dance and meet the binary dps/tanking/healing requirement. So realistically, what can you do besides just making every class essentially do the same thing, except in a slightly different order. And with that homogenous design philosophy, you cant reasonably make some classes meaningfully more difficult (and imo interesting) by giving them more damage, as that would heavily tilt the meta in a game where classes are measured by one output. Im really curious on how theyll handle the job identity overhaul with 8.0. I would absolutely love them to improve upon this, but realistically I dont know how theyd go about it.
@@karjar5742 True, the restricted encounter design is baked into the game's core. This is why these problems keep cropping up. Compared to something like guild wars 2 where the combat is dynamic, being able to reflect projectiles, break defiance bars and stun, increase your whole group's attack speed. All ff14 has is damage and don't stand on the glowy thing to not die instantly. They could at least make a job that can recover group mp on a long cooldown or try something that can boost attack speed for group momentarily. Anything other than just more damage in a different color.
25:51 holy moly THANK YOU I've been saying it so much that this is the most fun Samurai has ever been as far as I'm concerned and people that don't even play the job are STILL going on about Kaiten. It annoys me so much lol
Jobs are simpler now not because of any desire to appeal to a casual audience, but because simpler jobs are easier to balance. Its a cost cutting feature, through and through. Capitalism.
As a person who plays ffxiv a lot, and still does mentor roulettes even after having done 2000 already. Yes the rotations have to be simple, since so many still can’t do current rotations. They don’t use mitigation,they don’t dps as healer,they can’t keep rotations aligned and raidbuff aswell. I’m not trying to be mean but out of my experience that’s the norm….
But that's also kinda counterintuitive, how will someone learn if there is not a learning curve? Soemone will be new and will be bad that is a definite fact, but all it takes is the player themselves being receptive to learning and being taught by other players. That's not to say jobs should be some complex beast (I've been playing since HW and the game is just a different game entirely when you look at jobs) But that's not a bad thing or wasnt a bad thing, I would say with dawntrail release, aside from some fine tuning every job was in a great spot, none too complex you couldn't just pick up and play as the majority of the playerbase will stop at ex and at that point it's more a mech check rather than a dps check
@@Pitch04 I didn't know how my job (Scholar) worked because nobody told me that I was bad at it. Until I was in Alzadaal's Legacy a couple years ago and I had a tank politely inform me that he had to wait for his invuln to come back before pulling the next mob. I was mortified. Then I got to studying and found out what my kit actually did. If I can do it, anyone can.
Playing since 2.3 ish or so, while I do understand ppl wanting some complexity,by now to complex jobs are probably not possible to create anymore,given how the mechanical design philosophy of the game has become. Rotations have to be fluent and consistent in what they are trying to achieve with each job, imagine having weird alignment windows in high end content,while having a insanely complex rotation to manage alongside mechanics that are getting harder and harder each expansion. Top being a Bodycheck spam reliant of 8 players being near perfect execution wise. There is simply no place for to much complexity anymore,because at the end of day rotations have to work for the highest content mostly, since that usually is the only content where dmg/ rotation normally matters. I don’t see them changing a lot in 8.0,unless they completely change the mechanical part of encounters. And I would agree with the complexity u currently get in ffxiv is actually the hardcore content(mechanics,executing them,searching for uptime,mapping resources mitigation….) Needless to say I’m currently happy combat wise,since I’m hardcore raiding,I believe tho that healers could get some sort of little combo rotation,but that rly depends how they would implement it. All others are completely fine since they all work perfectly in given content where it matters most.
they dont even have to make mechanics less hard, so jobs can be more "fun" jobs dont have to be complex to make it engaging/fun. in WoW every class or specc is insanely fun and its not "complex" at all, just super engaging & fun and i dont think its only bcs of the good responsiveness but if the truth is that mechanics need to be less "hard" so jobs can be more fun then fking do it.. or find a balance.
I agree. Square won't ever increase the mechanical Difficulty of casual content that makes up like 95% of PvE combat in XIV. Anything below Savage/Extreme won't ever be made more difficult? but i'd argue Extreme/Savage in DT isn't more difficult either. Yet? when we pair this with the last time we can recall our Job gaining any depth/complexity? in my case SAM basically I can't remember... its bland & barely engaging content paired with bland thoughtless Job... its so thoughtless I am doing Savage while watching Netflix to stay awake
They'd have to ease up on encounter design, or offer a difficulty between normal and savage. I went from FF14 to WoW in the past year and I currently have AOTC in WOW while in FF14 I won't even touch savage because there's far more pattern memorization than my ADHD-addled ass can store. Because of FF14's jank netcode, a lot of mechanics are based around pre-positioning well enough before the snapshot that you don't notice the huge delay, and in savage they turn off tells and stack enough mechanics overlapping each other that the fight doesn't feel like "position then mechanic then position then mechanic" anymore, but there's so much fight tactic to memorize that savage guides recommend everyone be able to play their rotation blindfolded. Which means jobs with less RNG, and jobs that play more identically so that you're not removed from the raid because you normally play Sage but the other healer is a Scholar this week. Meanwhile, WoW you can actually focus on my job if you needed, with some basic knowledge of the fight because most bosses are voice acted and while Heroic Ansurek is a difficult group-pull for a casual group, you as an individual can focus on your responsibilities if you know that when you hear "Liquify!" or "Vile surge!" that you know exactly what mechanics are going to happen. There are still moments where standing still or not looking where you're going because your eyes are on the hotbar will kill you, but you learn when those moments happen and when to prioritize mechanics and when to be a pumper.
@@michaelc657 Its just the frequently used argument I see of " increasing mechanical difficulty " when Savage/Ultimate only makes roughly 5% of XIV's available PvE combat content. Players interact with Mobs/Fates/Dungeons/Roulettes you name it. So increasing mechanical difficulty? should mean largely everything, except we know Square won't & can't cause it will negatively impact casual players. Thus how simplified our Jobs have gotten? is highlighted even more in dull content paired with bland Job gameplay. How to fix this? Create a avenue to allow players to express themselves regardless of the Content difficulty? and provide difficulty as a choice. Savage/Ultimate are " Choices " cause they aren't mandatory. But if mechanic vomit left, right & center isn't everyone's cup of tea? they still have " Job depth " to master, even as optionality that they can express in all content - and very important -> " Even when the Game doesn't ask of them to do so ". A feels good that you are allowed to do that tiny bit of extra mit or proper healing or proper rotation or proper resource management or slide casting or gcd juggling or weaving or what have you - " Something " to give the players more to do in content that is already bare bones that can be achieved - Without increasing APM - Without increasing buttons - Without distorting Job balance i.e Increased Skill ceiling as optionality purely through Job gameplay? without increasing the Skill Floor, because if the content doesn't have a (meaningful) Enrage? it does not require players to know their DPS rotation which accounts for pretty much everything before Extreme difficulty. Square has proven to be able to do this, they just clearly won't or we have to wait until 8.0 which is however many years that is until we see something of any ounce or slither of Job depth / complexity / nuance / identity / flavor / anything come... cause that has not happened in " forever " in the exchange to give us what exactly....... anohter in and out / spread / light party / kb into a tower / generic raidwide in between every mechanic / or are we finally not getting a 2 to 3 mobpack into boss room rinse and repeat dungeon formula? its more of the same... its not that its not Fun? its just mediocre after so many years. I can't recall the last time they even give us something for Jobs that was exciting and thought provoking besides sparkly hotbar skills and shiny animations that go woosh-woosh but doesn't give any substance nor half a braincell of engagement to utilize or shove in between our rotation. Not in decision nor in making Jobs more difficult, seems more like the trajectory of Job design is the opposite - More simplification - More homogenization - To solve... I don't know if the statistics show that player count increases... or subscriber count. All I know is that if we continue to make Jobs more boring? we rely heavily on content then ever before due to how boring Jobs are. Content? that not all players will interact with. Where as if we make Jobs exciting, hell crack cocaine addictively fun? it amplifies all Content we do. Because we can selectively ignore certain content we don't like which incl. Raiding of which majority? statistically do not interact with. But 100% of the player-base will have to interact with a Job? to do at least mandatory content to even unlock optional content. And if this is boring?... I can see why my friends quit cause Jobs being to simple... and them giving me their FC house for free =__=; ... but I also see how friends new to XIV do not stick through ARR? simply cause its that boring... and then once they got to lv100? are not excited enough to stay purely based on Job gameplay not being as exciting as they thought it would be. That is the last selling point of XIV that I wished XIV has... Exciting Job Gameplay - it just doesn't have that - it has everything else honestly... it even has the best Gposing, Housing, Story telling, loveable Characters, side stories, achievement hunting, collecting addiction, lots of FF references if you're into FF... it just doesn't scream " You're playing XIV? because of the Job Gameplay being the Nr1 reason compared to what other MMO's can offer in class Gameplay "... And I sorely wished it did... but 8.0 ? I am not holding my breath really I am just expecting more homogenization for my main Job which already has gotten so many in like the 4 years i been playing? I am doing my Rotation blindfolded, while doing Savage, while rewatching Arcane on Netflix on a 2nd screen, type weaving coffee jokes in chat cause I'm falling asleep... let alone what I need to do to stay awake when I farm something like Fates or roulettes, No amount of mechanic vomit? replaces good satisfying Job gameplay... and I have come to peace with it that we won't ever get anything for our Jobs its just going to get dumber is my assumption. The day we do? it will surprise me. Until then? I am just accidentally got into raiding? and as a raider I casually Gpose and do Housing. i see raiding as a after thought to make gil through mercenary runs - I don't even do it cause its fun, cause my favorite Job isn't satisfying its just mediocre.
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No amount of "ease of access" will ever justify healers having a 1 button rotation.
I think healers are designed that way because of the various side mechanics like Astro's cards, Sage's addersting, Scholar's aetherflow, which are technically part of the "rotation" but in practice, it's still boring if you have a good party that doesn't need much healing. (At least when playing MSQ content.)
As a guy who heals on controller, I don’t want more buttons, and I don’t really feel like a rotation is necessary or would even be meaningful. I’ve got two cross hotbars worth already and the only free spot I have goes to the mind pot.
Maybe it’s because I play Sage and WHM in savage, but I’m pretty grateful when we get to mechs like AP2/Rotten Hearts, Fuse Field, or Intermission where we can mentally catch our breaths, just keeping our spell spams and topping people off.
@@LtOuroumovAST was designed that way out of the gate to account for the cards, which also used to have much more going on as far as mental stack, but it always sucked even on old AST. Both the one button rotation* and halfcasts** were forced onto SCH/WHM in ShB in a move toward homoganization.
* Note: not actually a combo/rotation that could be interrupted by needing to heal. Just multiple DoTs of different lengths/cast times to keep spinning.
** I'm actually in the camp that halfcasts were a net negative for SCH. Yes, it's numerically a buff, but we _already_ had a tool for movement and weaving in the form of Ruin2, with it's own conciderations to be made. We did not need to get both for free with every cast.
@@AaronthePedantic Idk... I play SGE and WHM as well with controller, but I would enjoy a more engaging gameplay. Rn it feels a bit lackluster, specially once you know the encounter. Playing SGE in TOP gets very samey.
@@ChepsGaming I can see how you feel that way after playing those jobs for years at the top of the raiding scene with similar good players that have beaten the game and optmized everything. The majority of players plays in groups where things do go wrong and have to deal with a lot of things. Adding more buttons on top because some people feel bored after they cleared is not what comes to mind first.
PvE: Every single role has to play exactly the same except with different animations
PvP: Hey what would happen if we gave AST, RPR's teleport and an AoE 75% Heavy debuff on demand? Lol that'd be so dope, let's go for it.
I fully believe the PvP and PvE teams aren't even in the same building for FFXIV lol
Job fantasy really shines through the PvP kits.
PvP classes FEEL unique to play, I just love diving in as Dragoon or sneakily picking off people as Ninja
Another example of how detached devs are from their own game. PvE is a snorefest to the 10th degree.
classes play the most fun in pvp (imo) and yet pvp is sorely neglected. or at least starved of gamemodes and things to actually do or strive for.
I just don't understand why the devs don't let there be simple jobs and complex jobs. They need to make a range of jobs for each part of the mastery curve to appeal to a wide range of players, and it's also okay for some jobs to be a little better than others as a result.
This is the best take imo. I see too many people who say the focus of the game should be mastering your job and doing endgame raids and such, but that alienates casual players and people who enjoy other content instead, or players who can't do complex jobs due to disabilities or not having the time and energy to train on a job.
Having some jobs be simple and others be complex is best of both worlds. Simple jobs can be easy for lower skill players to use and even help with getting into harder content, but higher complexity jobs are great for high skill players' skill expression
Because the simpler jobs would either do less damage to balance out their ease of use or be the only thing people play if the damage is comparable (i.e. why you see fewer NINs these days).
Is what I would say...
But then they released Pictomancer and that job is both cracked and simple so idk lmao 😂
I much rather have every job have depth, but have every job be allowed to be played brainless for less performance. think DragonKick MNK / Ice SAM, it's not optimal? but hey the choice is there. And if were talking proper rotation? most players press their buttons thoughtless in whatever order they feel like without uptime in mind. Making some Jobs purely simple and some purely complex? alienates a certain group no matter what. Have the players themselves be allowed to choose how far they could take a Job or not would be more ideal
As sad as it seems party finder would start blocking jobs because damage.
We already saw a microcosm of this with p8s before the nerf. Pfs were literally blocking mch, rdm and 1 more ( forgetting which one. And they were requiring double melee and all sort of stuff.
If there is optimization people will try to game it.
I DO think there shoild be more job complexity and players should be rewarded. I dont think there should be a huge gap in dps as dumb as that sounds.
Because complex jobs in MMOS are just janky 9/10 times
After the Dark Missionary change which I never thought would happen, I'm willing to cope about anything. We get our mana back in 7.3 👍
We won't.
@@DankTankXIV 7.3 introducing.. auto-combo 🤡
If more MP,only with significant Edge and flood potency nerf,but since they currently try to reduce weave heaviness I don’t think it will happen x)
Even just cutting carve and spit's cooldown by half would make things feel better, regardless if they have to shift potencies to make it happen. Other tanks have nice 30s or 60s cooldowns but DRK has... a 90s cooldown that you cannot reposition for teleport-to-middle bosses, a 2x charge 60s cooldown, and another singular 60s cooldown before returning to a 1-2-3.
I didn't think they could make lower level dungeons even more boring but by the gods they managed to find a way with that blood weapon/delirium merge. Now you can get 3 whole swings even in ARR-HW content!
I've been playing since late shadowbringers. The funny thing about many of the job changes I've seen since then is that many are initially praised. Quality of life is good. Not having "jank" is good. But then eventually people sour on the changes because having some difficulty in your rotation is what makes them fun. I've honestly learned that a lot of what people called "jank" is actually just like, having to think about your buttons at all. I keep seeing scholar being called janky for things like not being able to use dissipation and seraphism at the same time when that's clearly a designed thing that you're meant to play around. I honestly wish Warrior went back to its gap closer costing gauge and inner chaos consuming inner release stacks because that gave warrior any cooldown management at all as opposed to being nearly entirely on rails.
The devs want to give players what they want because, in their experience, doing that is what makes the game better. But they need to realize that player demands shouldn't always overrule design intentions and sometimes the players don't actually know what they want. See the complaints about Bozja and now the demand for that exact style of content to see how fickle and shortsighted fans can be. The devs have wanted complexity, unique identities, some jobs to excel and fall short in different areas, but some players have pushed against that and they also happen to be the loudest. They're not all just casuals either. People that want braindead jobs so they can flex their FFlogs scores are absolutely a thing.
As a SCH main who came in around the same time as you... what? WHY would anyone want to use Dissipation and Seraphism at the same time? They're both "nobody dies" buttons! I find it silly that we have two!
@@TheWickedWizardOfOz1SCH's capstone skills have always had an issue of clashing with eachother.
Dissipation, Aetherpact, and Summon Seraph all directly conflict with eachother's use. And while it does make sense as part of the calculus of using Dissipation, that has it's own problwm of conflicting with _itself_ by giving us 3 stacks of Aetherflow but only buffing GCD heals, and also if those stacks are used before the fairy comes back then they don't contrubite to the gauge for Aetherpact. Also why the hell can't Seraph use some form of Aetherpact?
@Riyshn I agree with all of this and I would like to add seraph has it's own fae blessing and the other one but it's purely cosmetic despite them having their own icons. I would the serph to work more like Bahamut where the transformed buttons actually have different values.
Yuuup, I tried to explain this to people when they couldn't understand why I wasn't excited about resource-giving buttons no longer being able to overcap gauges.
Like sure, it's nice not to worry about overcapping mana when pressing manafication (for example). It didn't particularly add much complexity, and it's not like the rotation has changed much now.
...but every small piece of friction (/jank) adds up. If you file them all off then the jobs play themselves, play the same, and any potential for optimisation goes out the window. That doesn't mean all friction & jank is good, of course, it just means that you have to be careful and wary not to go too far.
@@Elendrial and ironically the one job that _needed_ the gauge/buff change didn't get it. DNC has the exact same problem of random resource generation between Tillana and Tech that MNK's Brotherhood had, and it got nothing to mitigate it.
Did you really just do a patch notes reading 2 weeks after it came out?
When there's a 50 meter gap between you and your role's competition, you can always count on Square to give you a 10 meter bridge and pat themselves on the back.
I didn't pick up Black mage to play a streamlined class, I picked it to have something to chew on and really work with to make as good as possible. Continual streamlining, smoothing, and simplifying of classes makes me less and less interested in playing the game.
I agree 100%. I believe that they're thinking that them dumbing down jobs makes the game more inclusive, which just isn't how any of this works. If you try to please everyone, you'll please no one as a result.
I think that every role should probably have a difficulty scale which correlates with damage dealt. SMN shouldn't even come close to BLM damage if played properly as an example
@Noel_Tamura I agreed with that idea for the longest time but if you look at heavensward, which had drastic damage differences in jobs, jobs were outright banned from pfs and the games overall health was horrible because of it and other dev issues
This is why I quit in 4~ weeks into DT. I want to heal but I don't want to have to literally lobotomize myself or only do blind prog to have fun playing healer (A had some hope for the game going in the right direction with the double sage dots which was swiftly crushed). At the end of EW I finally had gotten the hang of BM only for SE to remove complexity so I didn't want to play that. Samurai still didn't get Kaiten back so I refused to play that. Summoner got a new coat of paint but no real gameplay changes. Red mage was essentially the same EW. Tried picto and got bored after a few weeks (was pretty fun to remove aetherhues though but I knew it was going to get removed). Was going to level up Bard to max level and try it but I thought to myself "Why would Bard be any harder or more fun and what is preventing SE from making it more 'streamlined' in the pursuit of making it easier?" so I just quit. Managed to have fun in EW because I constantly swapped jobs whenever I got bored and ShB because I loved the old summoner and 2.5 full cast healers. Currently seeing what is happening I feel justified in my decision and that I made the right choice.
@@Noel_Tamura You may not have been around for Heavensward when certain jobs were straight banned from prog because they just didn't do enough on the dos charts.
I kind of agreed at the start of DT, but I'm having a lot of fun with BLM in SphenEx right now. I honestly think the fire paradox change is great now. Still wishing they'd go back to thundercloud instead of thunderhead, though.
As a healer? Nope. Nothing changed, and I still don't have any desire to play it.
Ast is my cope since it has the slight semblance of entertainment with the cards and like i said slight lol
@@Bismarck9871 The cards was my favourite part before DT, now they're annoying.
But I grant that a lot of people thought the old cards were annoying.
Also there were no reason to remove dijurnal sect, other than risking other jobs being jealous of it's flexibility.
@masterost1994 i might be a weird one but i miss astral sect or whatever the name was where you stacked 3 dif card signs i liked that a lot
@@Bismarck9871 The cards are mostly useless now. Absolutely the most mindboggling change.
When we said it was a little too busy, we didn't mean we wanted them to gut the job entirely. We just wanted a weave or two removed.
I'm pretty new and I like the simpler jobs more, but there absolutely needs to be jobs that are complex and benefit from skill expression woth higher results.
They don't need higher results, they just need to exist. I've talked to plenty of BLM lovers who will love BLM even if it's not highest on the chart.
Quite the title for a late patch reading. Got me good there.
Right? Here I was expecting an actual discussion. Disappointing.
Then there's me who has 5k hours in the game, mains summoner and still get my ass beat by midcore stuff xD. i appreciate simpler jobs. i find it hard to deal with mechanics that go kinda fast, which tends to be a lot of the newer stuff i think.summoner is the only job that lets me focus on the mechanics more than a rotation so i manage at least.
This! If I tank it’s on warrior, heal with white mage and dps on summoner. I do enjoy the other jobs but my brain can’t focus on rotations and mechanics that are getting twitchier by the patch. In the old content there are decent amounts of breaks within a fight to reorganize yourself and get back on track if you lose focus. The new stuff is one thing after another with the tank buster being the only “break” then back to disco floors and laser lights. I like complexity. I hate brain melt.
1000% agree with your statement! I'm the same!
@@cheesecannon1519 Complete ag0ree with you as well. I like having a simplified option for every role b/c I WANT to be able to do all the role quests for story not LOCKED OUT b/c say ALL the healer jobs are super complex to please the people on healer strike.
Back in June, an interview regarding the oversimplification of jobs led to this interaction with director Yoshi P: "some fans remark that they 'don't think it's possible for them to make jobs any simpler than they are.' Thankfully, Yoshi-P is well aware of this sentiment, as is the rest of the Final Fantasy 14 team. In our interview with the developer, he promises that jobs like SAM 'won't be simplified any further...'" Yet here we are, 5 months later, with most jobs indeed getting more simplified. At this point, I feel that the combat design team seem to have an obsession with erasing nuance and simplifying job design and will only continue to do so patch after patch. Imagine thrifting an old, wooden coffee table. That coffee table has a lot of character, but also some wear and tear, so you decide to sand the table in an effort to remove that wear and tear, but rather than stopping once that wear and tear has been removed, you continue to sand down the coffee table, stripping it of all its character and personality. And even when you have a nearly frictionless tabletop, you keep going and continue sanding it down further and further. At what point do you no longer have a table left?
I haven't played DT because the character and the personality of the jobs is so sanded down that it's no longer an enjoyable experience to me, and 7.1 has given me no reason at all to want to return. To make healer jobs at least a little more enjoyable to play, they could have tried to address the power gap of White Mage and Sage by doing things like reducing the cooldown of Presence of Mind to 60 seconds and reducing the cooldowns of Phlegma and Psyche to 20 and 30 seconds respectively. But no, all you get is to further inflate the already swollen potencies of your filler GCDs, which adds even more pressure to maximize DPS with every GCD cast I might add.
What breaks my heart is that we absolutely could've had a healthy middle ground where jobs are very easy to pick up and play at a base level, but still have those elements of nuance and optimization that allow experienced players to push further and be rewarded with more dynamic gameplay as a result. But every patch makes it evidently clear that SE has no intention of achieving a middle ground. They do not want players like myself or others who enjoy gameplay nuance, choice, and decision making to continue playing their game.
what can you expect when the devs have a mindset thinking a cone aoe is too hard to use?
At this stage, it feels like any examples of simplification amount to nitpicks at best by the people who complain about them--not elements that make those particular jobs unpalatable. Yet it's the constant erasing of all these things that is making those jobs unpalatable to the people who like nuance and thought in their gameplay. Really, I'd say that's been the case for over half a decade at this point.
Honestly getting complex mechanics is not a good trade off for easy af jobs.
One only affects high end content, the other every piece of battle content + mastering a job feels more rewarding than a random fight imo
Yeah the balance is strange. Easy jobs isn't the problem but mechanics for the sake of mechanics can be just in the way rather than fun
The point of an mmo will always be its endgame, casual content is always irrelevant to performance.
I even feel that those encounters are suffering, as right now, you might as well treat your class as a 'select a character' in an arcade cabinet and fight a battle that's completely agnostic to the job designs. Everyone is capable of being able to dodge attacks and stack with partners, but when's the last time you had to do something job specific like have a phys range kite an add around an arena?
@@Kp0p9305-x very true.
@@jucatrujillo8962 but even high end is worse for it...
So I'm a savagte raider GNB main, and I have to disagree with you a bit. I didn't have a problem with double down before, but the change actaully INCREASED cart management potential. Before, GNB's rotation had no creativity - it was all a strict rotation with no decision making. Now, when to use burst strike and hypervelocity to make sure you aren't entering a 2 minute with 3 carts, but always entering both your one minute and 2 minute with 2 carts, actually gives some interesting choices to make, especially with forced disconnects that are long enough to require a GCD lightning shot in play. It *does* make the job more accessibler, but I need to actually manage my carts now rather than just... do my rotation forever.
I was once a long time smn player. Played it from ARR - SHB. When Endwalker came around my class went from having some decent difficulty to play to being basically phys range with it barely having to cast. I would kill to go back to hw smn.
I have since moved to drg but even tho removing two nastronds per min isn't too big of a deal I know 8.0 is gonna gut that job now.
The irony that SMN is labeled " Caster " when I as SAM Cast more times then SMN... perhaps not in total seconds of cast-time throughout an engagement? but its both funny and sad... I'm essentially half a Caster =u=;
@@C.Cer.midare literally use to be a spell and you could even reduce it with spell speed materia. It wasn't good but it's funny.
Make jobs exciting/flavorful/satisfying/fun? & Content = amplified. But Make Jobs simple/bland/flavorless/boring? & we rely heavily on content... multiply this by the last patch or expansion you can recall any depth being added to your Job besides another (copy-pasted) shiny button with a sparkly affect that lacks half a braincell of engagement? and it gets worse, even more so when " how mechanic vomit something is " i.e raiding/high-end content? isn't even what the majority of the players statistically engage with. Players statistically 100% of the time? interact with " Jobs "
Actually a really interesting take. If general gameplay / combat is fun, any content becomes way more engaging without it having to be overly complicated
@@Noel_Tamura Most players who desire Jobs to be more satisfying? aren't demanding players to require a PHD degree to play Jobs from lv1... But if what a lot of players argue for " mechanical difficulty increase? " then Square shouldn't just do it at Ultimate/Savage which makes up only 5% at best of the total combat Content available? but also every Dungeon/Mobpack/Average Fate/MSQ/Roulette/Extreme/Alliance Raids etc, which won't happen cause it treads on Average players where as Job mastery can be made optional
@@Noel_Tamura That is why WoW is successful as it has been, snappy responsive and diverse gameplay= more fun across the board. Doesn't stop people from complaining but it means they get more out of the content that is there.
As someone who started in ShB and mained and loved DRG throughout it, even doing my first savage tier on it, I am sad to say that as far as I'm concerned, the job I loved is gone. EW already kinda sucked a lot of the fun out of the job with the introduction of the 2 min meta, since it meant that the more dynamic life usage to go with you 3 distinct damage CDs was gone in favor of just using it every minute, but the DT changes have just been the last few nails in the coffin. While the 2 minute meta might have made eye management trivial, DT erased that and didn't replace it with anything, jumps were replaced by pretty underwhelming "glide", Nastrond management was made simpler since Life went from being 30s with a 10s Nastrond to a 20s buff with 2s Nastrond. But now, with 7.1 removing two Nastrond charges, in addition to the rest, Life of the Dragon feels so empty, making me wonder why the Life Gauge is even still there. Not to mention that playing DRG below 80, your big 1min burst that comes with you Life is... a single Nastrond. After all these "ease of use" changes, we're left with a job that has no real resource management. While your burst are still busy, the filler between those burst is completely empty since the job's damage buttons are now solely cooldown based, there's no resource to build for your upcoming burst or dynamic life windows. As sad as I am to say, I no longer see myself playing DRG for the rest of this expansion. And I not holding my breath that they'll use all the space they gave the job to add anything meaningful in 8.0. People had the same hopes about EW SMN being at least a good new base to build up from, but it basically received 0 addition in DT outside of cosmetic ones.
Honestly they need to stop adding new jobs and focus on making the current jobs unique and fun.
But they won't. New classes/jobs are the big draws in the MMO market. Marketing research has shown that what brings people back to a major expansion or patch is to try new champions/characters/jobs/classes/etc. As such they are trapped in a cycle of needing to adding new jobs as it is the golden standard and to NOT do it means the game is "dying" or entering "maintenance mode"
I think the only thing I would complain about with Dragoon is that the AoE combo steps need to unlock earlier. Only getting the 1st step at level 40 is just not on! Then we have to wait until 62 and 72 for the other 2.
Cant wait for Rinon to enter their Lynx Kameli era
Rant incoming I’m ok with jobs being simple, I just want them to have more identity. I feel like the only differences we have on jobs now is how we earn and spend our gauge.
There needs to be more uniqueness in terms of what a character can do. I realize that it may get more difficult to balance as time goes on, but we are making our jobs too similar. Most recent case? DRK losing plunge for the same ability that MNK and now DRG. How long until Ninja loses shikuchi for the same ability for the sake of balance?
And on the other side of the balancing coin, giving jobs abilities to match what others have also complicates things for job identity. Every tank having gap closers is cool but now having one feels compulsory and losing it like DRK (I’m not lying when I say my DRK is level 60) is horrible.
I’m just frustrated because I feel like there’s only 3 jobs: Tank, Healer, DPS
Please, for the love of god, don't give the balance team any more bad ideas. NIN is the last job I have out of the three that I enjoy that still mostly retains what makes it fun for me. Busy burst, insane movement/adjusting potential, cool looking moves etc. Removing shukuchi would straight up tear out one of the things it excels at which is being able to adjust insanely well on the fly, whilst also removing the only unique movement option in the game. They already removed the last bit of "jank" it had in TCJ, which I honestly liked having to decide during pulls where to use it based on the mechs. Was it a healthy change? Sure. But do I like it? No. Anyone who played NIN for Savage and Ults just worked around it so it could have stayed imo.
@ well said. I enjoy the Jank, it forces you to think about what you’re doing. They’re making the game so insanely easy to play it’s becoming an issue.
I find that drg is actually more complicated now. They basically made mirage dive smuggling twice as valuable, which makes it much more important to do, and to me, that is way more difficult than just pressing a couple of extra buttons every two minutes. It's a weird decision.. and imo a bad one.
There are occasional issues where when you used old Superbolide, there could be a brief lag between you hitting 1 hp and the invuln applying itself. So like, if an auto attack hit you in the 1/4 of a second between you hitting 1 and going invuln, you'd just die.
Im going to go on the opposite side, I personally think job simplification is a good thing TO THE EXTENT IT IS NOW, only a small amount of the playerbase would benefit from really hard jobs to play, and designing a job to be super hard to play at even a mediocre level just means the more casual playerbase would just be locked out of that job, but theres another level, if you are progging thru a new fight, very few, if any people would want to bring a super difficult job to a new difficult fight, and those few would after their partie's 137th wipe will start complaining how the game had a super big difficulty spike and all kinds of other stuff, I would rather all jobs be simple with a bit of a learning curve and fun to execute than having the thought over my head that "oh but this job does way more damage after you spend 3 months learning it" not to mention what many have said, that the simplification allows encounters to be much more complex, hell just look at the alliance raid that just released, the simplification lets even normal content have a bit more bite to it. Basically what Im saying is when you are watching the ultimate prog soon, try to think how many more times they could've wiped to damage checks due to a ludicrously complex job that they're playing because it can do more damage than other jobs.
You're taking complexity to the extreme which isn't what's being asked for. If you watched his video from the other day, stormblood scholar is the perfect example. The decision on whether or not you can fit in a use of miasma 2 is a great example of complexity. If you don't do it, you're still doing an acceptable job. If you can pull it off, you're *excelling*. The floor can stay where it is and that's great! Jobs should be accessible. But, there should be opportunities to grow and shine and make decisions and sometimes those can fail. But still, the option is so much fun, no? If you're not comfy just don't press miasma 2 in a raid encounter, problem solved. No skin off anyone's back
@@Alix_Farin That I do agree with, complexity in optimization is totally fine so long as the floor is relatively similar, and I do think that's what they're going to go for in 8.0, but many people ask for there to be jobs that are way more complex to execute properly at a basic level, and that, to me atleast, is a bad idea, since if they do that and the damage is lower than simpler jobs, the vast majority will not play it since it's more work for a lesser result, while if the damage ceiling is higher by a large amount to compensate for it's difficulty, PFs (which is what a good chunk of the playerbase uses) will only really want that job for that slot in clear parties. Again, making a job designed to shut out people not able to keep up with it leads to a hardly used job, hell just look at EW BLM if you want proof of that.
While I personally liked EW blm and think that there's a few examples that are better suited to the argument, I'm glad we could reach a middle ground. Keep on keepin on friend
I think you might be misrepresenting the black mage changes as if they've introduced an entirely new "viable" rotation.
From what I understand, there are now "non-standard lines," which are weaker than what we had in EW. But these lines are a dps gain in certain situations when you have the resources required to pull them off.
Overall BLM has got a very slight dps buff and, once again, another buff to mobility. We aren't beating the broken leg allegations, folks.
When job changes are made, one needs to remember, that it is impossible to please everyone. There will always be those, who want some things about jobs to be easier to use, and then there are those who don't. Trying to find a perfect balance here among millions of players is a mathematical nightmare.
The MCH changes are nowhere near enough nor the ones the job desperately needs. Physical Ranged in general needs a rework and at this point I don't think they will ever do anything about it until it gets so bad that groups are no longer taking the role. They are just not listening and not testing the game themselves at the office.
Wild to say they aren't testing when clearly they do test, otherwise nothing would be as polished as it is. What an emotional response to a video game.
I like the change to esuna, not only related to Alexander where you have enough time to esuna everyone, but mainly for cleanses like in p12s where you needed to time your esuna pretty well as the tanks kept getting stacks and i wanted it to apply at a certain moment (just when the stacks capped out)
"Double Down" changed to "Down."
'Down' Changed to 'Down syndrome'
" Triple Down " when? XP
@@JohnPaul-nb5iu What does this even mean?
I don't really think jobs have gotten much easier since SHB. Some have, certainly, but I think most have stayed around the same. SHB really was the turning point of job design and difficulty, and I think the majority of players, both casual and hardcore, are fine with and enjoy most jobs how they are today (except maybe the healer role).
Personally, I think most DPS jobs are fine and offer a variety of gameplay, uniqueness, and difficulty, but Warrior/Dark Knight and the entire healer role are in dire need of adjustments. They've kept their word on the design changes they wanted DT to have, so I'm quite curious and optimistic about what they will come up with for jobs in 8.0!
YOSHI P GIVE ME BACK VIPER DEBUFF AND MY LIFE IS YOURS
Half the video is good things and we're using clickbait titles "Jobs in FFXIV Keep Getting Simpler". Yeah, no. Why can't we be honest and just say "How the 7.1 Job Changes turned out"?
Most "Ease of Use" changes are things that people have complained about for a while that can realistically be addressed, and even in the video "SAM and BLM have more choices". Title doesn't reflect that. We literally see the devs listening to feedback and making changes, but they aren't getting credit. TCJ was absolutely miserable to use in high movement fights, especially with the recent raid tier where burst would often align with movement heavy sections. The biggest criticism I have about the state of the game is that I think most jobs could use to be a little more busy during non-burst windows, and a little less in their burst windows.
4 jobs are ease of use. 2 jobs have more choices, while the vast majority have adjustments according to feedback. To say "Jobs in FFXIV Keep Getting Simpler", is not a balanced take. It's misleading and only furthers the narrative that the devs aren't listening and don't care, only catering to making the game as easy as possible. It's so hyper focused on one aspect that it misses the forest for the trees. If jobs were to become more complicated, would a video be made about how damaging it is to the bulk majority of the userbase? I don't think so, because even in this video when it was done, it was an afterthought, said once and not mentioned again.
I'm really starting to lose faith in our content creators integrity. It's becoming very arrogant, borderline narcissistic. Not just in this video, but other videos (Meoni encouraging the devs to lie about the contest) and podcasts where it feels like viewpoints outside of the top percentile just don't matter (State of the Realm, Mogtalk). I have never felt less interest in beinga part of the community than now, and it's not because of the jobs. It's because everything is just drama and hyperbolic rhetoric. It's miserable.
There was a similar comment under a recent video, where without trying to make it sound rude, it's a You-problem for the ultimate raiders that want to keep climbing a mountain, but they are already at the top and there is nothing to climb left. Making the game artificially more complex for a tiny group of players doesn't seem right. I also checked the JP forums and they are not even aware of these dicussions happening here.
@@NightpireVideos YES! FUCKING PREACH MY MAN!
@@NightpireVideos Thank god people are saying it. Motherfuckers make FFXIV their literal entire life and then complain that its too easy. Meanwhile mom with five children wants to sit down and heal a raid without needing a PHD and 17 fingers.
What's the point of 3rd cartridge if DD costs 1 cart.
The third cartridge was honestly a bad idea and I think they're just trying to fix it without admitting their mistake and going back.
pepe is concern
If you want all that money from casual players, its a good idea. Same with new players. For vets who want more from the same game 10+ years later? Not so much. The answer will lie ultimately in sub retention/gains over time. If they make more money, it was a good idea. If the make less money, it was not a good idea. That's all SE execs care about, so that's the metric I'll use to make my determination, because "what I want" as a player doesn't really matter.
XIV is the breadwinner for SE. We're not going to see risks anymore, unless the risks are "how much of the budget can we strip from the game while retaining profitability?" I've voted with my wallet, after 10 years of a sub fee. They made plenty off me already.
but the new player and casuals are 80% of the game and dotn be a lair it not veteran player is HARDCORE and some not all midcore veterans are mostly casuals players too .
I'm a Samurai main, I think it's currently really in a good spot right now. I'm also apparently part of the minority that thought Viper on release was leagues more fun than what it is now. I've only been playing since Shadowbringers, but I've been becoming less interested in branching out to become competent at multiple jobs because things feel more homogeneous nowadays. I'm not saying everything feels the same, but more same-y.
I've been feeling less attached to the battle content overall, and in all honesty I don't have a lot of confidence that it'll be much better in 8.0. It's not bad, I just want more to be asked of me, which doesn't necessarily seem to be what's happening with what the devs have been pushing.
It's also not necessarily what the majority of people want, going off the conversations I've had about balancing. I like failure states, I like there being clear indicators of skill in play. Things like Superbolide going from setting you to 1 hp to 50% irk me because it's just less personal responsibility, less reason to interact with your teammates or coordinate instead of just pressing a button. Is it quality of life? Sure, but it all comes together to make completing duties feel less rewarding to me.
I understand that people have been saying they want the difficulty to come from the duties, not the jobs, but I'm not really seeing that happening. Even if it does happen, I feel like it'll just make each job feel less interesting.
I still play battle content regularly, I still enjoy the game, and I think I will for the foreseeable future, I'm just not that optimistic about it giving me that sense of fulfillment I felt figuring out Viper on release in any foreseeable context, even if people continue to rag on me for feeling that way. Really though, Sam does feel good right now.
I wish you could toggle off the raise from RDM and get a damage increase for it, it feels a bit deflating that it's harder to play/optimize than PCT but won't ever touch that level of damage, even if you don't end up using those raises. Not sure why they're even in the same role, the gap between PCT/RDM damage at 80th percentile in this Savage tier is 1853rdps while the gap between Tank, Healer, Melee DPS, and Ranged DPS's best and worst classes combined is 1950rdps.
Having a raise is far less useful in harder content too where body checks are frequent. Me having verraise does nothing when the boss wants 8 people alive
@@Pets_Cats That, and swiftcast's 40 seconds, so healers can raise even more often. Less of a reason for the caster to do it unless both healers are dead.
One day we will just have an auto play button that runs through the rotations for us. Casual players will somehow still complain that the jobs are too complex.
Ninja doku being a cone is nice for the aoe potential but also great because its range went from 3 to 8 yalms so you're way less likely to drift your 2 mins due to having to step out of melee (which has already proven useful in Byakko unreal's 2nd burst window). Now they just gotta uncrease kunai bane's range by a little bit and it'll be perfect :3
And yet, combat keeps getting more complex. Did the 24 man, it was abject misery. And since there's NOTHING ELSE for a casual player like me to do, I cancelled my sub. 10 years I've been with this game, and I'm just done. This DDR ARPG Dark Souls BS is more than too much for me and I'm done with it. I liked old school methodical plan, not whatever twitch reflex with "die to learn" tells this nonsense is. You guys can have it.
"Ease of access" Shouldn't mean "Just press the button" Ten Chi Jin being able to move with it IS nice, but now you dont have consequences for choosing a shitty place when you use it
I think the change was to mitigate the amount of accidental TCJs that got wiped because the NIN moved an inch due to misinput.
I do agree there could’ve a better way to handle this though, like making TCJ immobilize or 99% heavy and KB Immune you. Foolproofs you from accidental oopsies and still puts you at risk when you use it.
Job are getting more simple because the combot in FF XIV is less about skill complexity and varriation and more about rhythm. It's a rhythm game, always stay on the right place at the right time and missing the time window gives you a penalty. More complext jobs would make the rhythm more difficult and unreliable, that's why jobs get simpler. At least this is how i see the design philosophy of the devs. That and they want as many people to be able to play the jobs as possible, regardless how much knowledge they have, better keeping everything more accessible.
They could make real accessibility option for people who struggle for any reason with the jobs and still make jobs with a higher skill curve. But this needs more work and more people in that field to consult them. I can only imagen that the FF XIV team is so small that they can't afford the extra work to realize more nuances when it comes to job design and combat. Which is crazy if you think about how much money FF XIV makes and how much Square Enix threw money out of the window by selling their most money making studios way under value.
It still tickels my pickel when I top the charts as a RDM or MCH in roulettes
The thing that annoys me with the BLM changes was that the buffs to Flare, Despair, and Ley Lines by themselves would have been great and helped bridge the gap between BLM and PCT, something that I hope we can all agree needs to happen if Picto is meant to be the new baseline for casters. But that Enochian nerf... it's just 1% and overall it's a damage gain, but think about it: they did not need to do that. Why did they do that? What is the purpose? Is there some fourth-dimensional chess happening? Or are they scared of making the class too powerful? Or could they just not know what they're doing.
Personally not a fan of the double down change just because I used lion heart before gnashing fang, meaning it was less likely to lose out on raid buffs and it made it so that you could enter each burst with two cartridges (three on one minutes if your skillspeed and uptime allowed it).
Now I have to alternate 1 or 0 cartridges and 3 for two and one minutes respectively, which is a little annoying. It also makes my melee combos finish at strange times relative to where they used to be.
11:00 I get the idea behind this, but I do think that the change for double down costing only one cartridge was a good change. Reason for this is the 1 minute burst. If you had to use one ranged attack anywhere between 2 minute and 1 minute burst, that would make either your Gnashing Fang or Double Down drift. This is because you will need that 3 cartridges going into 1 minute burst. With your gcd speed (I'm using the faster one), you would have just enough time to get 1 cartridge for Gnashing Fang at 30sec mark and 3 more for the 1 min burst. This would only happen if you'd get full greed during that time tho. Gnb isn't my main tho, so I could be wrong as well.
I kinda miss noxious gnash. It made me think about doing my rotation correctly. It was not hard to keep it up once you got the flow of it. Plus it was like a "poison" for the snake themed class ya know? Now Viper essentially got defanged. They could have done some other change instead of straight up removed it and so shortly after release too. I still play it because I do like the animations and I already grinded out gear for it. Just kinda makes me feel worried about the changes they make.
I don't think rotations need to be complex for the gameplay to be deep. DPS rotations aren't hard - boss mechanics are. Doing DPS rotations without failing boss mechanics is a form of skill, but that still mostly comes from the mechanics - NOT the rotation.
Most abilities are just "This deals damage!"
There's differences in how much potency and how the ability is limited: cooldown, resource cost, charges, combo actions, etc.
Sometimes those abilities have a secondary effect/requirement: range, applies a buff/debuff, generates a resource, positionals, etc.
But... you still have like 15 buttons saying "I do damage!"
Meanwhile, Genshin players swap between 4 characters that each have an Attack chain, a Charged Attack, a Passive, a Skill, and a Burst... and that's it. You pretty much only have 2 "abilities" plus your basic light/heavy attacks. And those Skills and Bursts have quite a few variations, from the type of elemental damage to the actual effect it has.
So you could *pretend* Genshin Impact has 4 basic Skills that do basic stuff, to build up energy for 4 special Burst abilities. And it can get pretty wild despite that simplicity because those devs will get VERY creative with what the buttons actually do beyond just... "I do damage!"
Or you could look at Monster Hunter World. You don't HAVE special abilities on a bar. It differs depending on the weapon, but you mostly have just light and heavy attacks and combo them in different ways (or else ammo, or hold the attack for a different action). The skill needed can vary from the ease of dual blade attack spam to the complex burst combo of charged blade.
I think it's time that we move beyond the WoW style of MMO combat. It's grown stale.
after over 1000 hours, i can finally admit to myself that i've grown pretty sour with job design in this game.
"simplification" aside, i actually think jobs can be annoyingly busy and complicated now. the devs seem to have thought at one point that a giant list of buttons that have so little impact on their own is the identity to strive for. now when they try to trim some of that fat, people go ape and complain about simplification. they dug themselves into that hole. it's why they make new jobs simpler and more easily effective instead of facing the backlash from finding a better vision for existing jobs.
seems like difficulty only comes from the mental gymnastics of dealing with mechanics and/or teammates while maintaining your absolutely spastic rotations (healers exempt from that part). fun is subjective and i don't like requiring adderall brain to play this game at max level anymore. especially when other mmo's have been packing weighty and fulfilling combat for years now. i just wish 14 could follow suit without the ball and chain that is this community sometimes.
feel free to flame me for my opinion but while i care for this game a lot, i doubt they will ever find the balance that it used to have between functionality, accessibility and fantasy.
as irrelevant as the SMN changes are, it's got to be the most indicating for the future. Gone are the days of "5 minutes to learn the job, 15minutes to master it"
Now it's 5minutes for both
I feel like SMN in particular is a good indication that they want stuff to get easier and keep it easier and didn't do stuff in preperation for 8.0. That's been a theory with SMN all this time: "yeah it has to few buttons but it's clearly a clean slate that will get more stuff in 7.0 and 8.0!"... and then it didn't at all
I can't help but feel a touch paranoid about the fact that the biggest amounts of pruning to the jobs conveniently coincided with the timeframe where Yoshi mentioned work on the mobile version of the game started.
nope they've been dumping down jobs since shadowbringers and the mobile version will be its own separate game made on a different engine so it wouldn't make any sense that mobile affects the main game
Yeah i gotta say I don't like the TCJ change. I get people don't like accidentally cancelling it cause it snapshotted their movement. But for me i would rather see it plant u in place with no option to move at all (give it knockback immunity if its necessary) to keep to cool flavour of it while making it function as intended. Big L for me. Let me make decisions in my characters kit squenix I hate this design trend.
Personally I would have gone with a Ley Lines solution where you have a teeny tiny little circle that gives you the buff. Accidentally twitching won't break the combo but you also can't *really* move around while using it.
@@yeoldpubman That's a great solution too. I just want the spirit preserved and that does it.
I think the disappointment for me is how 6.1 patch was one of the best ever non-expansion release patches and 7.1, which came after 7.05 (no 7.08) significantly underdelivered on the expectations. The balance is absolutely atrocious; PCT is still absurd, stronger than BLM while being easier to play and having shielding and healing for the party, whereas BLM literally has none of those because it's supposed to be the crazy high DPS one. AST is still kilometres ahead of other healers. DNC is still clunky because of Tillana recast.
Patch 6.1 was the " Worse " for me.... because of " Hissatsu: Kaiten " removal along side other simplifications with Samurai that could account as Quality of Life? but it made it that much dumber to play Samurai... as well as the implementation of Auto Crits that on its initial release? was terribly under-performing, only for them to hot fix it? leading to me always critically striking which is great on paper... but now I just never feel like I crit-strike at all cause I always crit-strike...it never since then felt special, it has always felt weightless to me
The recast isn't the big problem with Tillana, it's the +50 gauge in the middle of Tech already giving you unpredictable amounts. It really needs to be eithera Saber Dance Ready buff or get the MNK/Brotherhood treatment.
I’m in the minority that thinks job simplification is a good thing. Mostly because of hotbar bloat. Healers in desperate need of some sort of engagement.
Full instant cast BLM is dealing more dmg than RDM right now, lmao.
Nastrond changes are the most insane shit ive ever seen. Its literally dragoons main ability and funnest ability to use. I dont want it simplified :(
Jobs may be getting easier now, but id wager that is just for them to gain more actions in the next expansion.
Why not simplify or prune things right at that expansion launch then? Making players endure a botched kit in the interim is not really a solution.
Listen everyone my mom plays this game and she is 67, she doesn't need or want a complicated rotation simplify things for casuals like my mom, yoshi-PLEASE!
probably in the minority here which sucks, but the gnb double down change finally dumbed down the job too much for me to even enjoy or have fun playing it. been already salty about the rough divide change, because to me the fun of playing the job was having to do so many weaves and having to plan out ur rotation and mits without dying/clipping. i also liked gnashing being a 3 button combo and now its one (i know a lot of people don't care or prefer it this way, but for me pressing 1 button is mind numbing and i don't think its interesting.).
i know a lot of people compare it to ShB gnb, but ShB gnb had a 90s cooldown and the rotation felt more engaging because of it, than ur now constant same rotation. u literally cant fuck anything up now except if u go into no mercy with 3 bullets and dont spend the last one before using bloodfest.
honestly i just don't get the philosophy myself. I was having a blast finally getting to do dsr because i found people to do it with, and patch drops in between prog days and i just dont even feel like playing the game anymore.
kinda sucks that the only opinion u're allowed to have is "make every job simple and make hard mechanics". like if i just wanted to do hard mechanics without actually playing a fun job, i might as well just go play the simulator for ultimates...
think the game is just not for me anymore and i doubt its gonna became any better, so imma just let my sub run out here.
I just wish there was a way to keep skill expression and difficulty while massively cutting down on button bloat. Even if jobs are technically easier now, I am much worse than I used to be. I just dont have the dexterity to be tip tapping halfway across my keyboard and 3 modifier buttons anymore. There was an attempt with Viper, which I appreciate. But they made it basically impossible to screw up and still felt the need to simplify it more. So I just dont know if its possible or if they're even capable.
I completely agree. I cleared ucob on ninja, but due to physical disability I can't play the job at level 90+ because there are just...too many buttons! being able to put the basic combo onto one button (the way things are in pvp) would make the job WAY more accessible to me, without changing anything else about it. viper may be boring, but it's painless for me to get my fingers around. for that reason it's become my main melee lately, even if I'd be more engaged playing something else.
It just comes down to the combat system being somewhat uninspired from the get go.
i switched from ninja to dark knight some time in 7.0.
before switching i did arcadion, ucob uwu and tea all on ninja. Im really mad about this change, imo it ruins how fun the burst was, having to pick a spot to tcj during it just felt so cool, now its just a boring skill
I'm pretty happy with most of the changes, I'm only indifferent for jobs I haven't played yet. I think it's weird to praise things like increased healer range but then not liking Ten Chi Jin no longer canceling on movement. To me the old TCJ was a _major_ friction point, as my favorite things about Ninja are its versatility and mobility. The stationary TCJ made everything screech to a halt for a 3-second channel and was especially bad in dungeon pulls, where you need to put Doton down amidst chaotic aoe's.
Similarly, as a healer main I am ecstatic about the Superbolide change! No more wasted Essential Dignity, or Benediction, or Excog. The "reduce to 1 hp" is very interesting on paper, but in most contexts (meaning, for most of the playerbase) it was just a frustration that added no enjoyment.
The thing is, I agree that most jobs are too streamlined right now. But that goes hand-in-hand with current encounter design, which I also have a problem with. Dawntrail _mainstream_ content has leaned more and more into chaotic messes and extended memory tests, seemingly as a way to counteract job streamlining. But this has increased the skill requirements for everyone without a way to opt out, unlike jobs where you can always switch to an easier option. My husband hates half of all Dawntrail bosses because of this--and the only respite he gets is whatever time spent on the floor before the next Raise.
My point is, the devs need to balance for lots of kinds of people, and we're in a particularly rough spot in that regard. Not _every_ ease of use change is bad. Here's hoping we don't have to wait too long for things to get ironed out.
Fun fact about tcj doton: if you shukuchi right after casting doton, your character will teleport and place the puddle at their new location. It's less useful now since you can just move while doing tcj but it's still fun to do it :D
thing is on the base level i don't think any xiv job is hard to use, they already felt very same-y and now i don't feel anythign when swapping jobs in the same role sob emoji
While I understand there should be complexity in job design, the “complexity” in FFXIV has always been in clunky design.
It’s not satisfyingly complex like offering you decision making in your rotation or taking advantage of combos from allies, no. It’s always been clunky, outdated mechanics.
Take SCH for example, is the complexity thoughtful or is it clunky? I would say clunky and always has been.
You have several anti synergy skills, the fairy gauge is a mess and its integration with the rest of the kit is non existent.
While I am no WoW player, I have always been enamoured with their job design which is truly complex. There are build choices, decision making with rotation and cooldown usage and taking advantage of synergies with your teammates.
That is complexity. Scholar losing access to pet skills to be able to stop moving and hard cast shit is not complexity that’s just clunky design. The same with aetherbond rooting the fairy and cancelling the tether on other ability execution. All for what? 200P ticks?
SE just needs to step into 2024. There are so many MMOs like GW2 and WoW with better combat systems that are truly dynamic.
I love this game and how active it is and how it respects my time. I just wish classes weren’t so absolutely devoid of any character or flavour.
All the combat complexity is in dodging mechanics and there is none in the classes themselves.
But WoW job balance is non-existent with classes regularly deemed weak and inferior. Each class, that's actually considered viable, has a single spec you are expected to play. Options are nothing more than an illusion in WoW.
@ First of all there are no unviable classes in WoW just like FFXIV. Meta slaves will always be meta slaves. That’s a player issue not a balance issue. Even high level FFXIV has meta slaves that want specific comps for the 1-2% differences.
Secondly, it doesn’t take away from anything else I said. Their combat is miles ahead of FFXIV. Even GW2 combat is miles ahead of anything FFXIV has to offer.
In search of this magic middle ground where meta slaves don’t have anything to complain about SE just keeps homogenising all the classes until this point where they are truly interchangeable and for the worst reasons. Add to that the “complexity” is just clunk from 1.0 era and you have a real problem on your hands.
The only thing that saves combat is how busy encounter design is at high levels so players have something else to focus on. But even then once you know the content you cannot help but notice how bland your class is.
@@stormkeeper1741 WoW balance is non existent, meanwhile the DPS logs look the same as FFXIV and there's even more players playing the "weak and inferior" jobs than in high end content than the "bad jobs" in FFXIV.
more buttons = more complexity, ff14 devbrain timeeee
Thankfully it's, SE doesnt know how to insert unique features without them going bad in end game content, so let it be
Honestly dark mind being objectively better than camo/bul/thrill (even though I think bulwark is still the best) is fine when tbn is very unusable on autos during prog and carve & split heal is situationally good unlike aurora, equilibrium, or even the req combo + block chance of PLD. drk is still lacking defensively atleast compared to the far superior other tanks who might have too much
Xenos spends the entire EW raid tier crying about double down and how they should change it to one cartridge cost and change the name. Now its a "niche group of players that barely exist and how could Square make such a dumb change!". Its so weird as a normal person looking in to these debates.
I never seen the superbolide > remove buff macro being used. im sure it has happened but i don't think it was a real issue. Maybe it's to prevent it from irritating the healers? that's the best guess i have. as healer main I don't have much experience using it myself, but i know that when i was getting it up to 100 that some healers don't like you using it where as using any of the other invulns is mostly ignored. but that would just be my guess. i think it is a shame it is just half health now. at least make it like 10% or 5%. that way you still have the visual effect of the hp bar being drained. or add a short but strong regen on it. this change to me feels like a bit of identity loss for gunbreaker
Darn now i can't scare my sprout healers anymore with Superbolide.
yeah ive got 10k+ hours in ffxiv. and between the trickle feeding us content, the unwanted class changes, and the overall change in the community since pre endwalker/wow exodus. ive decided to not play xiv as my main mmo anymore. ima stay subbed and run content with the homies when they ask me too. but i just cant log in every day and still have fun like i used to unfortunately. just too many small things that i dont like all adding up and making me not want to play. and its especially rough due to the fact that i straight up do not enjoy old content for the most part. so there rly is nothing for me as a player who enjoys doing current content while its current. 7.1 dropped and everything could be completed in a couple of hours. we waited 4 months for a couple of hours of fun? idk but now i get why everyone is calling it "Yawntrail"
just gonna pull the pin on the hot take grenade. FFXIV needs talents similar to the ones introduced in MoP or something to provide major augmentation, easy one for ten chi jin is one allows you to move while using it and another makes you stand still but deal more damage (maybe like 15% or so, numbers can be easily tweaked). TBN for DRK, one makes its a free mp cost, 25 sec CD, 15% damage reduction but doesn't give the free edge, the other costs mp but when it pops, the next edge or flood is free, has increased the potency, and is a guaranteed crit.
I don't like the idea of some jobs being easy while others should be more complex cause someone's favorite job could get the axe like with summoner being so easy, its a slap in the face to those who mained and practiced its complexity before endwalker. Stormblood was my favorite version of DRK, but after the ShB rework, the job hasn't felt great despite being super easy to play.
Sounds fun on paper, but it's an illusion of choice after everything is figured out by the best players.
Be careful what you wish for. WoW raiders already excluded “suboptimal” builds of the same class since the very beginning of the mmo. Putting specializations that people will optimize the crap out of will only make the problem worse. Don’t forget, Squeenix made BLU a limited job because they knew people would make a “Feather Rain or GTFO” party finder or smth because optimal dps.
The issues are the players. If a job is simple more players will play the job, if that job has good dmg then thats even better. Jobs that are to complex will get booted out for the similar and simple job. This has happen many times. Heck many BLM players moves over to PCT for that reason as its just better BLM. Complex only works if the payout is worth it. But if its too much the these jobs become mandatory. Having a job be hard to play is not always a god thing and often leads to the job being alienation. An if a job is played by like 6% of the player base then its going to get rework. Few players played old Smn and Mnk. I was a old SMN main amd even I know that job had really high bpm. New SMN may be more streamline but it has many more players. Mnk wasn't worth to play as your rotation demanded perfect play, many buff management, and slowed down during down time. Every melee could do what mnk did with less effort. People think having complex jobs will be better both with my time playing this from the start it has never played out that way. These jobs will simply get marked as players to not play with in ex and above content.
I would be more incensed by the Double Down change if you didn't have to plan around Bloodfest in new ways. I think mostly what this change accomplishes is making GNB more flexible, rather than stripping it of its forethought. The way I see it, job design at large is boring not specifically because it's easy, but because it's devoid of interactivity. I can actively solve the problem of having too many carts for my 2 minute by dumping in advance, whereas sometimes you simply couldn't generate enough carts for NM window in fights like DSR or TOP depending on phase pushes. Punishment is good, but punishment with agency is better.
Also I would argue this iteration represents release Gunbreaker's design philosophy better than EW's design does.
Why people want more complex rotations? What should be complex are the dungeons and raids.
ShB is the natural end result of that school of thought, which they have doubled and tripled down with in EW, and now quadrupled down in DT.
How is that working out, you having fun?
I have a hard time believing people actually want that considering how many people complain about the level 100 dungeons. They're more complex, and people are very vocal about not liking them, even with simpler jobs.
@@Enl1gtend exactly the point with my reply (which is missing for some reason, thanks TH-cam)...
If this direction was good and desirable, people would be raving about and loving what ShB/EW/DT have all delivered.
50 mins of the same beatened dead horse...we know why they are making the jobs easier, to encourage new players to savage and up since otherwise it would be ignored...why most hardcore raiders want their jobs to be janky like the old days, they want to lord over people and be the "best" in a janky system...we figured this out already...no need for word salad
Or, hear me out, players are simply tired of every job feeling the exact same. I'm no hardcore raider, but I've played the game enough to experience just how devoid of fun and engagement every job is. There is no satisfaction in rotations anymore, we are losing identity every time they introduce changes, etc. I know they're trying to make up for it with encounter design, but that's nothing more than a band-aid on an every-growing problem.
tl;dr continuous homogenization and the 2min meta are nothing but a detriment.
@@Corvus7159 again....what do you want? no one playing your game because your job system sucks or more people playing the game? stormblood tackled that issue very well...but they need to find that middle ground of having uniqueness and homogenization because you dummies think thats what you want...until u get passed over for a job that is meta that brings piercing/slashing....like the old days lol
@@Corvus7159 and 2 min meta was created because of the player base...not the devs fault...so yall need to pick a lane on what this game should be
But if the game sucks shit, and I have to suffer with it sucking shit to be good, that makes me a super hardcore awesome big dick gamer. And if i'm not a super hardcore awesome big dick gamer, I'm nothing :(
This video comes when Azurite is posting "which tank to pick".
lmao my poor dude it doesn't matter all classes play the same, only the animation changes 😂
Look i like simple i believe all classes should be able to be played by all people, My issue is class identity too many classes are the same but different animations and honestly looking at some rotations for classes like mch, Mch went from being one of the easiest classes to now have a mile long rotation thats overly complex ive noticed similar rotations with basically all classes minus summoner. But again back to my orginal point i think all classes minus maybe sam and ninja need reworks so they have their own identities and unique playstyles that dousnt mean they should be ball grindingly difficult maybe have some curve to it but nothing that would make it usable for only the "Git gud" elitests
BRING BACK 'DRAGON SIGHT'!!! 😭
SMN before 6.0:
SMN after 6.0:
I don't know what "foundation" they are preparing for 8.0 patch to improve job identity. But with each new patch leading to it, all jobs just keep getting more boring. I cannot do DF anymore simply because playing the job is not satisfying anymore. I might as well mash random buttons and still be at the finish line within reasonable time.
Failure states are what makes gameplay exciting. If no matter what you do, you still win, what is the point? It is funny how before DT Yoshi mentioned that FF14 is too stress free and that's not good. New patch comes around, they make a lot of jobs even more stress free. Okay...
Jobs are too similar for me, differences used to be more pronounced. Tanks? All the same, just fancy gauges to play with. Buffs are identical, with the same effects just spread out differently. And honestly the same goes for healers now too.
I already haven’t played since the beginning of EW. I’m not afraid to wait until jobs feel unique again.
It is all just PR talk. No idea why people think Yoshi P somehow has his finger on the pulse of the playerbase. He has been making bad decisions leading into dawntrail.
BLM does good damage but picto is still overtuned so I'm not sure what they plan to do about that. The non standard rotation will get butchered because that's just not what they want for the job. Especially with their new fancy lvl 100 spell that was made to pull you into standard is getting left in the dust. Don't get me wrong I feel like there should be some regulation on stuff like the 100% instant cast rotation or the flare flare flarestar aoe rotation but I just hope they do not gut all of the nonstandard stuff that makes the job stand out. Little optimizations like these are a form of expression which is being removed so everyone can just do their cookie cutter 6xF4s and go home. Rant over....
The Superbolide change was to prevent scenarios where a Gunbreaker would die after going to 1, but before the invuln applies.
This was a bug and was patched in a hotfix shortly after Shadowbringers came out AFAIK (basically it applies the buff before reducing your HP). Holmgang also had a chance to kill you with certain DoTs going through the invuln and was similarly patched a long time ago.
The patch notes are also technically not correct regarding Superbolide, it says "Reduces HP by 50% of maximum" and yet skills like Excogitation and Heart of Corundum still proc when you use Superbolide from full HP despite specifically mentioning "when HP falls below 50%" and not when AT 50% HP, so it's more like it reduces your HP by 50.01%.
I felt like it's to mitigate the punishment regarding, like, a Superbolide coming through after Bene or some other burst healing.
Why is double down 1 cartridge now? Name should be changed to get the fork down maybe?
I find that complexity isn't linked to fun for me. Gunbreaker and Machinist are both simple, but I find Gunbreaker anxiety-inducing because everything needs to line up while MCH is dynamic where buttons WILL drift and its your job to make sure those buttons get hit as often as possible anyway.
This. I fucking LOVE playing warrior viper and reaper. None of them are complex at all, but viper and reaper do get some fun fast bursts without being some overly complicated mess.
Anxiety inducing? Really? Just practice the damn job its not rocket science
.... mch buttons wont drift..... like what
If you press buttons off cd, machinist doesn't drift. Like at all. If anything, it's an extremely static rotation, down to the gcd
I love the developers continuing the march of removing skill expression, nuance, and points of failures with jobs. Let's just make everything near identical to something else (i.e tanks/healers in a nutshell) and as smooth as possible with no friction. I just do not comprehend why jobs are not allowed to be unique and different to each other, even if that means the inevitable tier list meta every parser seems to mald at. Yet, as long as every job is viable then the balance doesn't fucking matter unless you are a world first/speed kill or prog group - which at that point, you are
it almost as if you arent the mayority of this player and hardcore player or midcore what ever you are simple ARENT THE MAYORITY(to be honest causal dont often if at all post on forums so no clue who those ppl are )
@@anteprs7908 The funny thing is it only makes the game more boring. Why not have unique jobs when you can literally swap to any job in an instant on one character? Why swap to a job that is essentially the same thing? This is not WoW where you have to manage alts, so the convenience factor should facilitate more uniqueness, yet here we are.
@@anteprs7908 Casual=play story patch and then unsub immediately until next patch. Not sustainable to only cater to that I am afraid.
@jeremywright9511 because you dont want unique you want challanging and difficult job . All jobs are different the resolts is only the same .
@jeremywright9511 if THEY BOTHER TO GIVE MORE CASUAL CONTENT CASUAL WOULD STAY SUBBED FOR LONGER when island santuary was i ew a thing many casual keep their sub for it . And no casual sub for 1 to 2 month depending on the amounth of casual content give (right now their is nearly zero content and reson to sub fpr casuals) and they make also 70 to 80% of they playerbase so it the MAIN PROFIT for sure and let not lie and act like hardcore and midcore are subbed 24/7.
Maybe if Se bothered to give good casual content to casuals they stayed subbed not midcore content and force them to unsub or do non casual content .maybe if thebstop wasting time on ultimates that nobody does they would get better sub number but dt is proof that bad msq and more annjoying and stressful dung lead to huge sub drops dt fell off 3 week in.
In also saying about a reworked flamethrower, I was talking with a friend and they mentioned, which I agree they should work flamethrower into the blazing shot combo as a finisher removing the channel or even bioblaster or both while increasing the potency on both (still keeping the aoe aspect, but having the first target take maybe 60-70% of the damage). Besides this, obviously need something more than being the bad apple of the dps... something that will make a dramatic change in range's usefulness, because realistically we need something
Class design has left me bored and the story has been painfully bad. I unsubbed last month, ill resub when things are better.
I don't understand why MCH is still the weakest of the three Phys Ranged after the 7.1 buffs because when I look at fflogs, MCH is above DNC and BRD in all dps category (rDPS, aDPS, nDPS & cDPS). I am not versed in parsing and whatnot but isn't MCH being on top of these 4 parameters means it is better than the other Phys Ranged? Arcadion is the first time I main the Phys Ranged role and while I do play all 3, I find MCH the most fun to play and eventually decided to play it for FRU but I don't wanna cripple my party's dps if it is still the worst job in the game. So what makes DNC and BRD better? Please help a raiding sprout like me 😔
Even without remove buff macros, Superbolide can just panic troll sprouts. Probable explanation .
Edit: Also, at least Starry Muse now has parity with Ley Lines. lmao
If we're going down this route either just get it over with and make our bars look like pvp or actually follow through and rework classes in 8.0. I wish they were transparent, I hate this wishy washy will they wont they
i hate the starry muse thing becuase i always used that to know if their 2 minute was going out s; but now i cant >=[
I don't see the problem with making jobs simpler, makes people level up jobs they would of never touched before. Might be a hot take, but idc.
Why even bother leveling a different class if they all end up being the same
Some jobs being simpler is totally fine, the issue most people see is with every job becoming simpler every patch. This may sound elitist but not every job is for everyone and the reward lies in the execution of challenging stuff during an encounter. I will probably never be a good bard because the way the rotation works just completely messes with my brain but that's totally fine. I'll never complain about it and they shouldn't make jobs simpler because some players can't handle the rotation. There are 20 other jobs to choose from, there are no excuses
"complex" is not always good
but neither is "simple"
black mage has always been complex but that's been a source of enjoyment for many.
reaper was designed to be rather simple, but derives a lot of its fun from the flow state it provides, and the discrete adjustments you make to optimize your play
people don't like it when a job is made more simple when it flattens a lot of the decisionmaking and excitement that came from the job.
likewise, dragoon becoming more rigid and stuffy over the years feels bad. it's certainly still an involved job but so much of the "questions" that job used to ask you feel like they're just gone now even though the job is still so busy and involved
@@Alix_Farin Obviously all the classes wont be the same, each jobs have their own little unique quirks to them, but making classes more simpler isn't a problem in my opinion. The difficulty of the game should come from raids and party optimizations.
The problem is that some people like like complex jobs. Not everything has to be for everyone. In fact, they're still not for everyone. Now they're _not_ for people who like complex jobs. Instead of making everything simple, there should be a variety of simple and complex jobs. Saying that all jobs should be one or the other is selfish.
in a game with such scripted encounter design, such as xiv, unique decision-making and planning per job is where depth and replayability blossoms. they can make content design as difficult as they want, but enjoyment and variety will always be meaningfully bottlenecked by that layer of execution. Single down is incredibly disheartening for me.
I actually came to the opposite conclusion, while sharing your premise. The extremely scripted encounters and limited nature of interacting with bosses doesnt leave much room in creative job design. Attacks cant be dodged, bosses cant be incapacitated, animation length and attack range does not matter, combat has been reduced to a single output, which is dps, there is zero room for utility. So bosses are tightly designed around that dps output. Every job needs to be able to dance the dance and meet the binary dps/tanking/healing requirement. So realistically, what can you do besides just making every class essentially do the same thing, except in a slightly different order.
And with that homogenous design philosophy, you cant reasonably make some classes meaningfully more difficult (and imo interesting) by giving them more damage, as that would heavily tilt the meta in a game where classes are measured by one output. Im really curious on how theyll handle the job identity overhaul with 8.0. I would absolutely love them to improve upon this, but realistically I dont know how theyd go about it.
@@karjar5742 True, the restricted encounter design is baked into the game's core. This is why these problems keep cropping up. Compared to something like guild wars 2 where the combat is dynamic, being able to reflect projectiles, break defiance bars and stun, increase your whole group's attack speed. All ff14 has is damage and don't stand on the glowy thing to not die instantly. They could at least make a job that can recover group mp on a long cooldown or try something that can boost attack speed for group momentarily. Anything other than just more damage in a different color.
Does the holy cast time result in faster stun immunity ?
It shouldn't. You still have your roughly 2.5s recast time
@ Thank you!! I don't play WHM enough to know 😅
25:51 holy moly THANK YOU I've been saying it so much that this is the most fun Samurai has ever been as far as I'm concerned and people that don't even play the job are STILL going on about Kaiten. It annoys me so much lol
Jobs are simpler now not because of any desire to appeal to a casual audience, but because simpler jobs are easier to balance. Its a cost cutting feature, through and through. Capitalism.
As a person who plays ffxiv a lot, and still does mentor roulettes even after having done 2000 already. Yes the rotations have to be simple, since so many still can’t do current rotations. They don’t use mitigation,they don’t dps as healer,they can’t keep rotations aligned and raidbuff aswell. I’m not trying to be mean but out of my experience that’s the norm….
But that's also kinda counterintuitive, how will someone learn if there is not a learning curve? Soemone will be new and will be bad that is a definite fact, but all it takes is the player themselves being receptive to learning and being taught by other players.
That's not to say jobs should be some complex beast (I've been playing since HW and the game is just a different game entirely when you look at jobs)
But that's not a bad thing or wasnt a bad thing, I would say with dawntrail release, aside from some fine tuning every job was in a great spot, none too complex you couldn't just pick up and play as the majority of the playerbase will stop at ex and at that point it's more a mech check rather than a dps check
I dont care if they suffer, I'm bored playing my classes.
If they can't play the game well or strive to play better then I don't think they should play it in the first place. We're 100 levels in, people
@@Pitch04 I didn't know how my job (Scholar) worked because nobody told me that I was bad at it. Until I was in Alzadaal's Legacy a couple years ago and I had a tank politely inform me that he had to wait for his invuln to come back before pulling the next mob.
I was mortified. Then I got to studying and found out what my kit actually did.
If I can do it, anyone can.
Playing since 2.3 ish or so, while I do understand ppl wanting some complexity,by now to complex jobs are probably not possible to create anymore,given how the mechanical design philosophy of the game has become. Rotations have to be fluent and consistent in what they are trying to achieve with each job, imagine having weird alignment windows in high end content,while having a insanely complex rotation to manage alongside mechanics that are getting harder and harder each expansion. Top being a Bodycheck spam reliant of 8 players being near perfect execution wise. There is simply no place for to much complexity anymore,because at the end of day rotations have to work for the highest content mostly, since that usually is the only content where dmg/ rotation normally matters. I don’t see them changing a lot in 8.0,unless they completely change the mechanical part of encounters. And I would agree with the complexity u currently get in ffxiv is actually the hardcore content(mechanics,executing them,searching for uptime,mapping resources mitigation….)
Needless to say I’m currently happy combat wise,since I’m hardcore raiding,I believe tho that healers could get some sort of little combo rotation,but that rly depends how they would implement it. All others are completely fine since they all work perfectly in given content where it matters most.
they dont even have to make mechanics less hard, so jobs can be more "fun"
jobs dont have to be complex to make it engaging/fun.
in WoW every class or specc is insanely fun and its not "complex" at all, just super engaging & fun and i dont think its only bcs of the good responsiveness
but if the truth is that mechanics need to be less "hard" so jobs can be more fun then fking do it.. or find a balance.
I agree. Square won't ever increase the mechanical Difficulty of casual content that makes up like 95% of PvE combat in XIV. Anything below Savage/Extreme won't ever be made more difficult? but i'd argue Extreme/Savage in DT isn't more difficult either. Yet? when we pair this with the last time we can recall our Job gaining any depth/complexity? in my case SAM basically I can't remember... its bland & barely engaging content paired with bland thoughtless Job... its so thoughtless I am doing Savage while watching Netflix to stay awake
They'd have to ease up on encounter design, or offer a difficulty between normal and savage. I went from FF14 to WoW in the past year and I currently have AOTC in WOW while in FF14 I won't even touch savage because there's far more pattern memorization than my ADHD-addled ass can store. Because of FF14's jank netcode, a lot of mechanics are based around pre-positioning well enough before the snapshot that you don't notice the huge delay, and in savage they turn off tells and stack enough mechanics overlapping each other that the fight doesn't feel like "position then mechanic then position then mechanic" anymore, but there's so much fight tactic to memorize that savage guides recommend everyone be able to play their rotation blindfolded. Which means jobs with less RNG, and jobs that play more identically so that you're not removed from the raid because you normally play Sage but the other healer is a Scholar this week.
Meanwhile, WoW you can actually focus on my job if you needed, with some basic knowledge of the fight because most bosses are voice acted and while Heroic Ansurek is a difficult group-pull for a casual group, you as an individual can focus on your responsibilities if you know that when you hear "Liquify!" or "Vile surge!" that you know exactly what mechanics are going to happen. There are still moments where standing still or not looking where you're going because your eyes are on the hotbar will kill you, but you learn when those moments happen and when to prioritize mechanics and when to be a pumper.
@@michaelc657 Its just the frequently used argument I see of " increasing mechanical difficulty " when Savage/Ultimate only makes roughly 5% of XIV's available PvE combat content. Players interact with Mobs/Fates/Dungeons/Roulettes you name it. So increasing mechanical difficulty? should mean largely everything, except we know Square won't & can't cause it will negatively impact casual players. Thus how simplified our Jobs have gotten? is highlighted even more in dull content paired with bland Job gameplay.
How to fix this? Create a avenue to allow players to express themselves regardless of the Content difficulty? and provide difficulty as a choice. Savage/Ultimate are " Choices " cause they aren't mandatory. But if mechanic vomit left, right & center isn't everyone's cup of tea? they still have " Job depth " to master, even as optionality that they can express in all content - and very important -> " Even when the Game doesn't ask of them to do so ". A feels good that you are allowed to do that tiny bit of extra mit or proper healing or proper rotation or proper resource management or slide casting or gcd juggling or weaving or what have you - " Something " to give the players more to do in content that is already bare bones that can be achieved
- Without increasing APM
- Without increasing buttons
- Without distorting Job balance
i.e Increased Skill ceiling as optionality purely through Job gameplay? without increasing the Skill Floor, because if the content doesn't have a (meaningful) Enrage? it does not require players to know their DPS rotation which accounts for pretty much everything before Extreme difficulty.
Square has proven to be able to do this, they just clearly won't or we have to wait until 8.0 which is however many years that is until we see something of any ounce or slither of Job depth / complexity / nuance / identity / flavor / anything come... cause that has not happened in " forever " in the exchange to give us what exactly....... anohter in and out / spread / light party / kb into a tower / generic raidwide in between every mechanic / or are we finally not getting a 2 to 3 mobpack into boss room rinse and repeat dungeon formula? its more of the same... its not that its not Fun? its just mediocre after so many years.
I can't recall the last time they even give us something for Jobs that was exciting and thought provoking besides sparkly hotbar skills and shiny animations that go woosh-woosh but doesn't give any substance nor half a braincell of engagement to utilize or shove in between our rotation. Not in decision nor in making Jobs more difficult, seems more like the trajectory of Job design is the opposite
- More simplification
- More homogenization
- To solve...
I don't know if the statistics show that player count increases... or subscriber count. All I know is that if we continue to make Jobs more boring? we rely heavily on content then ever before due to how boring Jobs are. Content? that not all players will interact with. Where as if we make Jobs exciting, hell crack cocaine addictively fun? it amplifies all Content we do. Because we can selectively ignore certain content we don't like which incl. Raiding of which majority? statistically do not interact with. But 100% of the player-base will have to interact with a Job? to do at least mandatory content to even unlock optional content. And if this is boring?... I can see why my friends quit cause Jobs being to simple... and them giving me their FC house for free =__=; ... but I also see how friends new to XIV do not stick through ARR? simply cause its that boring... and then once they got to lv100? are not excited enough to stay purely based on Job gameplay not being as exciting as they thought it would be.
That is the last selling point of XIV that I wished XIV has... Exciting Job Gameplay - it just doesn't have that - it has everything else honestly... it even has the best Gposing, Housing, Story telling, loveable Characters, side stories, achievement hunting, collecting addiction, lots of FF references if you're into FF... it just doesn't scream
" You're playing XIV? because of the Job Gameplay being the Nr1 reason compared to what other MMO's can offer in class Gameplay "...
And I sorely wished it did... but 8.0 ? I am not holding my breath really I am just expecting more homogenization for my main Job which already has gotten so many in like the 4 years i been playing? I am doing my Rotation blindfolded, while doing Savage, while rewatching Arcane on Netflix on a 2nd screen, type weaving coffee jokes in chat cause I'm falling asleep... let alone what I need to do to stay awake when I farm something like Fates or roulettes,
No amount of mechanic vomit? replaces good satisfying Job gameplay... and I have come to peace with it that we won't ever get anything for our Jobs its just going to get dumber is my assumption. The day we do? it will surprise me. Until then? I am just accidentally got into raiding? and as a raider I casually Gpose and do Housing. i see raiding as a after thought to make gil through mercenary runs - I don't even do it cause its fun, cause my favorite Job isn't satisfying its just mediocre.