i want to point out that i likely made a couple of mistakes with crop rotation along the way, at least one of which you can see in one of the clips during the video. i am also not fully satisfied with the sample size, so i do plan to revisit these tests in an even further controlled environment, one where i will omit the data from any maps that contain mistakes like these so i can share a more accurate data set. at the very least this project needs a ton more sample size before being able to draw better conclusions about the node i wanted to mention this so you're aware of it before taking all of the information i presented as definitive proof that crop rotation is or isn't good
As someone who farmed over 150divs last week running harvest i agree with you .Crop rotation is heavy RNG based and at this point its a very underwhelming keystone .The best yield per map came for me from 8mods wandering path with gilded/polish scarbs combo Growing Hordes.
Agreed. With this VERY CONSISTENT and stable farming method I averaged around 3500 yellow lifeforce per map, resulting in basically 0.6div earnings or like half a div profit. No reason to give that up for crop rotation
Even buying the double life force and force yellow, the normal version of harvest is way better in terms of rewards than CR. I did test both too, and sure, it looks cool when you get like 6k yellow life force, but when you enter the harvest and there are only 3 camps you already know you wasted scarabs, an use of the compass, a map and your time because there is no way it will drop a decent amount of life force. Also tested several farm methods and still find that harvest is one of the best outside sanctum (which i can't do because Impending Doom don't let you see anything), i really was hoping the keystone was something good, but as you said, too RNG based.
@@CrisHermetica good thing is, as strong as harvest is right now with WP it really doesn't need a new keystone to be worth running. Actually for me its one of the best, most consistent solo farming options we have, and thanks to the huge demand its always very stable
Finally a PoE content creator that doesnt cut out the bad drops. I got baited by a crop rotation vid that only showed the big explosions and was utterly disappointed when I tried it myself. I think the extra hassle is only worth it in a SSF environment where you need a specific lifeforce and/or a blossom
Time should be a factor. The all T1 upgrade plots spawn all monsters at once so you don't have to wait. I can finish Crop Rotation maps roughly 30 seconds faster than a standard Harvest map, and actually got comparable div/hr (8-9) results from CR compared to a standard WP farm. Also, CR is a game in itself. It might be RNG-dependent, but it's certainly more fun than the normal harvest where you simply choose the highest T3 seed plot. With CR, You get to experience the mini-excitements when you enter the grove and see a great 5 plot field and when not wilt triggers.
Yeah, that's true, i haven't had more fun in while than with this keystone. Also wilt being not useless but actually hella useful is new to me, excitement goes through the roof)))
Agreed with this as well. Before crop rotation I was honestly pretty bored with harvest, just scanning for good crops and taking some yields. But now, Just seeing 4+ fields on a harvest is already some excitement in itself. And don't even get me started on the dopamine rush you get when your crops don't wilt. Best I've gotten so far is 4 Tier 4 crops. Hoping to get something like that again soon.
yeah crop rotation can get pretty fun, it's actually a lot more interactive and to be honest i kind of enjoy that alternative to just mindlessly clicking whatever has a higher t3 count. you found that you're actually saving more time with crop rotation? i have seen a few people say the same thing, but most say crop rotation takes them longer to deal with. is it because of the waiting for tier 3 mobs to spawn in when you're dealing with more crops that have tier 3 beasts? for me i didn't really notice much of a time difference, aside from the fact that plots with no tier 3 beasts can be completely ignored when not using crop rotation, which does shave off a bit of time. but i wasn't actually recording the time spent in the harvest so i can't be sure if it just felt the same, or if there was a significant difference
Yes, I play an occultist, so I insta kill monsters that spawn at once. There is definitely time saved from having to wait for fewer T3 plots to spawn every map. Aside from that, I have done enough CR harvest to reach the point where the optimal choices and sequence occur almost instantly to me, so I don't spend any extra time thinking. I also don't ignore plots without T3 seeds in harvest without CR so that could be why I was slower with normal harvest. At current bulk prices (>100000 per trade), yellow lifeforce is selling for around 85% more than blue/purple. Same for the compass price. Using purple/blue dupe compasses and aiming for max yellow lifeforce is not a bad idea at all according to my runs.@@teekeh
maybe blocking all seeds is the way to go with crop rotation, and boosting packsize + quant altars. Since all the seeds are almost the same price, you can focus on the one that has less crops (leaving for the end) once entering the harvest.
possibly, with how varying crop rotation is in its performance it's really hard to say without a huge sample size. i did seem to have slightly better return on yellow lifeforce while only blocking the 3 blue crop nodes even though there were less total plots. would have to do a ton more testing to be certain
@@teekeh I used this strategy in groupfound to farm Sacred Blossoms -- take all blocking nodes and crop rotation and run alch and go setup. In about 100 maps with crop rotation I saw probably 15 bosses, without crop rotation I saw 1 boss in 400 maps.
Its more or less my experience, I went with crop rotation to farm blue for my crafts and it was much faster, but after doing my crafts removed it and the amount of lifeforce diminished just a bit, it was more spread between colors but since I didnt take notes thats all based on feeling. I did have more bosses with crop rotation and 2 emblem thingies to go kill boss which is a nice profit boost and without rotation I never get them... not sure if you took those into account, didnt hear it mentioned in video.
side fun note, if your doing a pure crop rotation strat or harvest ingeneral, the 25% (30% elevated) magic pack size sextant too can be spicy cause its helps buff altar mob gains which is fun hah~ little less meaningful if ur gilded growing hyoards and closing in on 100% pack size but its still fun
Yes, that's the only major flaw in the analysis. You want to have the fewest of the intended target crop because it improves the likelihood that you will be able to bump the tier most before being stuck with it. It's counter intuitive, but seems to be the design intent behind that entire passive cluster
As someone who hyper focuses efficiency in this game & always farm at least a few mirrors each league I can say that the best use for profit from regular non-memory harvest is in a boss rushing scenario on small maps where you only scout the harvest. the reason for this is because you want to essentially “window shop” harvest meaning that you will quickly scout the harvest for boss plots- or if a tier 3 yellow plant has spawned with at least 2x mobs on the tier 3 reward If neither of these things are true, you simply leave the harvest immediately, this will maximize your oshabi invitations per hour & also minimize time spent in the harvest itself while we invest absolutely nothing in compasses or forcing the harvest, we just scout the naturally spawned harvest spawns When I saw & eventually understood the new keystone I knew it was barely worth it, it FORCES you to fully clear the entire harvest to see the rewards & that’s not where I personally see the reward factors about harvest.
yeah when you're talking about pure time efficiency with crop rotation the results definitely get a lot more complicated to calculate since its impossible to predict how any given crops are going to turn out, and the likelihood of you wasting a lot of combined time especially in 3 and 4 crop maps is pretty decent. not to mention you have to dedicate a lot more skill points to crop rotation since at least 11 points are absolutely mandatory for it to function properly in terms of pure atlas point efficiency there are at least 2 other mechanics that outperform any benefit crop rotation could provide at the same/less point investment
cheeeeeeeeerw!!! awsome work for the analysis, ive loved this crop rotation mechanic but its a weird one cause its NOT a wandering path juicing harvest, no its getting full value from notables hah. also its fun if its even a little loss, but the double loot and jackpots is nice idk~ only real trick is big 8 mod corrupted maps with growing hoard gilded scarabs can be spicy~
Personally I go with rotation if alch & go and without when running thick scarabs. It hurts my feelings when i use thick scarabs and then crop rotation trolls me over and over again. While in alch & go it does not matter as much.
Crop Rotation seems to need a specific "Harvest only" strategy. Because there's a lot of useless plots, your best way of approaching Crop Rotation is to try and maximize the juice per hour rather than juice per map. So take a map like Atoll with predictable Harvest spawn locations, rush to the Harvest and ignore everything else. If there's just 3 plots up, click through them but don't open. If no crop procs the 10% chance to not wilt, port out and open a new map. If one or more plots do proc the 10% chance or you have 4+ plots up, then do the Harvest and port out. This method will offer you the ability to really quickly just ignore the bad outcomes and not waste time. And also, I feel like the sample sizes here are just too small for this so your numbers are subject to very heavy RNG swings, but I genuinely think Crop Rotation spawns more Harvest bosses than playing without it does. As a result I would add to your point of Crop Rotation being good for SSF target farming a specific color juice, that it's also a good way to target farm more Harvest bosses and get Crystallized Lifeforce. I am a primarily alch and go player and ever since they made Harvest juice tradeable, I've had all Harvest passives on my tree practically all the time. I have never seen as many Harvest bosses as I have this league after trying out Crop Rotation. I'm not sure if the currency earned per Harvest is better or worse because I've not done any of the math, but I've definitely gotten more Oshabi kills done this league than I usually do.
Personally really like crop rotation but yeah you get less lifeforce overall but you get so much more from the lifeforce you want and a reason why I use that keystone because yellow lifeforce sells so fast.
Crop rotation is first of all best run with grand design, and also synergizes more with expedition than a wandering path strategy, I'm running a more expedition focused strategy currently with expedition nuke. You might get slightly less lifeforce overall but you get more harvest bosses and you get a juicy expedition.
Somebody did over a 1000 maps with different strategies, and I believe it came out to be ~6% more juice over with crop rotation. Which is quite nice. In addition to that, the amount of sacred blossoms you end up with is insane, so overall it's actually higher. IMHO, the 7th gate with the current prices of sextants (~50-60c / 4 runs) is not worth the loss of ~10-15 atlas points. I'd rather spent those points adding some free income.
And we should also pointed out that its faster, when in normal you need to wait for 3 waves all the time - In Rotation you finish whole thing a lot faster because there's not much of waves to wait for. Let's say: 2 Mins for normal one and 1:30 for rotation, Overall 25% faster = more juice perH.
i completely agree with not using the 7th gate, there are a lot of mechanics that offer much better chaos per atlas point per map than the points spent to save ~1.5-3c per map. when i record full atlas strategies i usually try to document an approximate value per atlas point per map. this is my last project for this league so in these tests i was strictly just measuring CR vs no CR, so i ignored everything else which led to enough points to not bother buying compasses. do you happen to have a link to the data from the 1000+ map test?
@@teekeh Hey, yeah video and spreadsheets can be found here: th-cam.com/video/VzRRmwCnkoc/w-d-xo.html - I have no affiliation with the channel, just my yt knows I've been looking up a lot of info on harvest crop rotation 😂🥲
@@MattiKettuthanks! i actually ended up finding it shortly after you mentioned it, and it has a lot of great information. i wasn't aware that a discord existed that runs these kind of tests so i appreciate the heads up immensely
For me Crop rotation makes Harvest - as Addition to main setup, i would say i've ran it like this - no investment in Harvest, except passives on Atlas, no map device craft - just raw chance to proc. When i see it on map - i go in, if there's less then 4 crops - i'm out. If those 4 are in bad setup - i'm out This way - it usually when i run it - its kinda good In bad cases - i just ignore it, cause it's not my main source of income :) You can consider Crop Rotation - Volatility Support but for Harvest :D
6:24 i absolutly love the math so thank you, but theres actualy a different non compass strat that was missed. I've seen significant value in BLOCKING yellows for 3 points and thne 1 point in either blue or purple (which ever juice youd rather use but i did blue) cause it actualy helps you push 1 yellow plat with 2-3 plots of other colors to pump it with for the best long run yellow targeted returns since the yellow is almost 60% more expensive or something nutty hahaha~ though it almost never benefits, it is cool when you hit double/triple boss one or a 8-10 t3 one
actualy my bad, your method makes sense, you can just translate the color specific outcomes of sets 3 or 4 into a yellow equivilent. though crop rotation is extreemly dependnent on a per map strategizing which while fun, can slow ya down a lot hah
Wouldn't it make more sense to block the life force type you want for crop rotation? It's easier to upgrade it that way, since you want more of the other colors.
possibly yes, but adding a compass into the mix forces the majority of the crops to be the colour you're forcing with the compass, so to counteract that it helps a lot to block that specific colour. i did try to block some yellow with alch&go before starting the data recording project, but it resulted in quite a few harvests with no yellow nodes at all if you focus mainly on the revenue alone i'm sure there's more optimization for the tree than what i did here, but the main goal was to compare overall lifeforce income and crop interactions rather than test target farming a specific colour you can get a pretty good idea on how the blocking performed based on the lifeforce screenshots at the bottom of the spreadsheets though
it's wierd, i have seen ppls spreadsheet tests with hundreds of mapps and strategies, bouth gaining 50% more lifeforce with crop rotation, and other ppls tests showing crop rotation being a downgrade. All in all, it kinda paints a picture, that even with hundreds of maps, crop rotation RNG probably needs thousands of maps to be tested, due to the MASSIVE variance of what a bottom-end and top-end luck, (0-20 lifeforce is a real possibility with crop rotation, while you can also get more than multiple divs of lifeforce on the high end). crop rotation rng of what is possible top end and bottom end has so manny factors: how manny eater alters with quant did you get, how much packsize do you have, how manny starting crops did you get, how are the colours of your crops in layout aka same colour or not, how manny wilt procs did you get, and how manny doubling procs occured in all plots used. The massive ammount of factors, just makes crop rotation a mega gamble, same as running eater alters for the hope of the divine alter
Originally, I thought/hoped for Crop Rotation to be like this: + Focus on one type of life force and get much more of that, but get much less to nothing from other types + Get more unique bosses overall (because you potentially upgrade a lot of tier 3's too, in theory that is) - Get overall less value - No way to skip low-value crops, you MUST do them all for value (normally you can skip crops that won't drop reasonable juice altogether) - More dangerous because more Tier 3 plants must be fought at once From your data, every point got verified EXCEPT the "spawn more bosses" one, instead it seems you got less bosses with Crop Rotation... Crop Rotation currently is not worth running at all, it reduces profits, requires more time investment (have to do all plants and plan out what to run first etc.) and is harder too (it also requires more atlas points, unless you already plan to reduce certain kinds of colours anyways. I hope GGG consider adjusting Crop Rotation with an extra line or so that makes it stand out, like "Base chance to upgrade to Tier 4 plants is doubled" or "Harvest Monster in your maps drop 50% increased quantity of Lifeforce if they are Tier 1 and 25% increased quantity of Lifeforce if they are Tier 2." The first line would make it possible to try and farm more bosses than you would normally be able to get, the other line would buff the Lifeforce dropped by the least profitable Tier's that you are mandated to clear, making it at least more competitive to regular Harvest (maybe). edit: I'm in the process of checking out another test of 100 map runs, so be aware that my above statements may not be entirely accuracte and are based off my own testing AND this video alone. I will adjust the comment shortly if I find the other 100 map test video to be convincing and with a different result!
well, yes but also no. i had to think about this decision for a second and ultimately it made more sense to commit to the boss for a boss + 2 t3 monsters first and the hopes of buffing the other blue plot further the only options that really made sense to me was to either what i did, OR take the blue in the y/b and then also take the blue in the p/b for a total of 11 t3 beasts. so at this point i was basically comparing 1 boss + 7 t3 beasts vs 11 t3 beasts. bosses drop roughly 3-4x the amount of lifeforce plus give a chance at blossoms so i went with the first option this also meant that if by chance the p/b did not wilt, i would have at least 1 boss + 13 t3 beasts i did however make a mistake of not clicking the yellow before the blue after i saw that the yellow didn't wilt on the last plot
i'm not exactly sure, i don't think i had a big enough sample size to say confidently, and i think many people are split on what the best method of blocking is. i vaguely recall someone posting some data that showed blue was slightly more common than yellow, which was slightly more common than purple crops, but i'm not sure if that was a large enough sample size either. i would say if you have no use for purple or blue and you're set on using crop rotation, definitely start out with blocking 3 blue and potentially one small (10% chance) yellow node, if you notice that you're consistently still getting too many yellow (in a 4-5 crop map, any more than like 2 yellow crops is going to start hindering efficiency), maybe swap the block over to the 25% yellow. if you consistently aren't getting enough yellow, start with blocking a 10% purple node, and so forth.
if crop rotation, block yellow, having less yellow means more chance to kill other color which will upgrade yellow, if u have everything but one non-yellow, your yellow will upgrade multiple times and will yield lots of yellow
what i've been doing is running crop rotation while also doing shaper guardian maps and only chceking if the harvest has 5 fields to harvest if it doesnt i wouldnt even do it, no compasses no anything just chance from the tree which you can get to like 60% and each time you get a 5 plot harvest theres a good chance you get a boss and a 100c worth of juice + a chance for a blossom which is just a nice addition to invitation farming for very little time investment made about 10 div/hour this league with this method
i'm playing an impale spectral throw champion, i have a video going over it if you're interested. you can see it here th-cam.com/video/pxRqq6mDDL8/w-d-xo.html
This time around, all three life forces are really close together in terms of price. I remember last or last last league, you could sell 20-30% less yellow juice for the same price as other juice. I wonder how that would compare with Crop Rotation and if it still would want a teeny-tiny buff to be at least even.
if i compare the averages between the high investment sets, yellow lifeforce would have to be roughly 63% more expensive than it is right now while blue/purple maintain the same price for crop rotation to equalize in revenue per plot but that was using blue/purple compasses, if i had swapped to a yellow compass i don't think crop rotation would ever be able to come close to the revenue of an optimized standard harvest setup
@@teekeh Awww, that is not good :c I was hoping that you get rewarded for thinking with Crop Rotation, unlike the normal "just click yellow T3" harvest, but it seems the node itself could use some numerical increases.
I don't get the spreadsheet revenue breakdown. I can not find the compasses investment deducted from revenue nor added to investment cost? Am I missing something? According to the spreadsheet (take mid w/o node2 as an example) the average investment per map was 8c (just the scarabs). Meanwhile just a lifeforce dupe compass on TFT is going for 60-80c a pop.
sorry about that. i only documented revenue in these tests and not profit, which means i didn't subtract the cost of scarabs and the whole investment section was just remnants from a spreadsheet template i made for general farming tests where profit is the primary focus i updated the spreadsheets with a note about it, thank you for pointing it out
Its a fun keystone but i cant get over the feels bad with the low-lows. Also the investment getting croprotation far off in the corner makes me not taking it "for fun"
ye it is, wandering pather also gets way more quantity and pack size on their maps because the central and upper small passive rows have 100% increased effect. Though this makes maps way more difficult to run. 60% less aura effect + wandering path with the whole "hat" allocated is basically no aura effect. 96% less. Another detrimental affix is 60% less life/mana/es regen. This becomes 96% less. Others aren't a big deal. If you can deal with -15 max res you can deal with -23. But -96% aura or regen is yikes.
How is wandering path the best strat for harvest farming ? I though people say harvest is so reliatble to big notible snice it give you more chance for nore t3, chance for t4 to appear and chance to not wit.
No harvest notables give extra chance for T3 seeds, the small nodes do, and WP doubles that bonus to T3 seed chance. With WP you also get around 40% extra quantity and 10-15%extra packsize on 8-mod maps.@@locmorningstar2740
@@tuckvisonnot completely worthless since the loot is better overall, and juiced maps are actually juiced. I dont mind getting a bit less lifeforce but a lot more other loot
if you mean the spectral throw build i made a guide for that, pob and all of the other information is in the description of the video, you can find that video here - th-cam.com/video/pxRqq6mDDL8/w-d-xo.html
I think one of the reason why Rotation suck - is because of Heart of the Grove cluster. Cluster literally one step from being useless, if not for 10% chance not to wilt, holy = Its bad. And that is the oposite for Wandering path - why Wandefing path is sooooooo strong. Imagine losing 60% inc chance to contain T3 plants? Baseline worse(or same) farm than Rotation LUL
Also if my theory is right and T4 crops have 2% to appear per crop section (2 crops together) - Then 6 bosses in the first comparison is okay because its jump to 3.2% and it sounds about right, when in rotation there is 1 boss missing (sounds about right if chance is 1% per crop with T3 plants) and we have 10 crops lesser, because if think that this base% is what chance to upgrade tier is for Rotation. But if its 1% per Crop, then ofc with "Heart of the Grove" there will be 2x more bosses and Rotation gonna have lesser amount overall.
yeah you ideally want as many bosses as possible, but its a fairly low chance for a t3 crop to upgrade to t4 as it is. the chance for a tier 3 beast to go to 4 is definitely much lower than the chance for a t2 to go to t3. it's also not easy to do with 3 and 4 plot harvests, and 5 plot harvests made up for roughly 26% of the harvests. even a 5 plot with 1-2 saved crops that didn't wilt doesn't always result in a boss
@@teekehso I’ll be completely honest I didn’t listen to the whole video to look at your what your logic is behind what plots you choose. But based off the sample size you provided I can already say that it’s too small to make a useful estimation, based off the RNG nature of the keystone. I have farmed about 750k yellow juice this season with the keystone. I believe I’ve gotten returns well above what I used to get with harvest life force drops in previous leagues, even in a non optimised set up for harvest, as I was doing formed/elder slayer invites and decided to take advantage of the static pack size nodes. What I found was in order to get bosses and consistentish double plot harvest of like 7+ tier 3 plants, you needed to be willing to make sacrifices. Like if I had two plots left, both with two yellow tier 3 plants on it, I would sacrifice one to reroll the other. If I had3 plots left and they had 3 tier 3 plants, I would sacrifice one to reroll the last two. This paid off more often than not. My last run of elderslayer sets I farmed about 120 maps and pulled over 250k juice, 50ishk blue juice and maybe 10ishk red juice. So averaging around 2k yellow juice per map and at least 2.5k juice total per map. When I tested harvest without the node I was getting a similar amount of juice per map but spread evenly between the less valuable life force. Idk I think the node is fairly balanced. Edit; yeah looking at your spreadsheet, I think your margin of error is still pretty high because of the low sample sizes, I think if you had a few more spiked maps where you drop 7-8k life force in a map could have easily brought that number to even or even ahead. And again, it’s really worth weighing the fact you can spec into gold juice. Across my farm I farmed 750k gold juice, I was forced into taking 150k..ish blue and 50kish red. So if you look at 2k vs 2.3k juice but you can guarantee 80% of that 2k is 20% more valuable or even more as the league progresses, that lower life force number still looks better imo. I know you mention it at the end but I’m not sure if you’ve done the actual math on it…it works out to be the same if not favourable towards crop rotation. Unless idk you’re doing yellow crop sextants which I think are too expensive at the current yellow juice prices when you can take the other sextants for half the price and go crop rotation, then the guaranteed blue/red plot works in your favour most of the time. But I’m not gonna do the napkin math on that. Sorry for all the edits, posting on the phone, hard to keep track of the word salad
@@hrodwulf172 yeah i do completely agree that a larger sample size as well as sampling with less variance (possibly just white maps, no doubling season or bountiful harvest) will provide better results. this is something i do plan to test more of in the future its an overall very interesting node that has a lot of potential but the huge amount of variance and swings makes drawing conclusions with small sample sizes of data potentially inaccurate which is why my evaluation on whether the node is good or not at the beginning of the video was really inconclusive
@@teekeh yeah, all that said I should have commended you on the way you presented the data, very well compiled info. All it needs is more of it! Great content still.
i want to point out that i likely made a couple of mistakes with crop rotation along the way, at least one of which you can see in one of the clips during the video. i am also not fully satisfied with the sample size, so i do plan to revisit these tests in an even further controlled environment, one where i will omit the data from any maps that contain mistakes like these so i can share a more accurate data set.
at the very least this project needs a ton more sample size before being able to draw better conclusions about the node
i wanted to mention this so you're aware of it before taking all of the information i presented as definitive proof that crop rotation is or isn't good
it's just a more fun and interesting way to harvest. you get a little gamble and have to make decisions. i like it
Nice loot filter bro
And you forget to skill the Small note Grant nothing, Allocate give +1% pack Size
Huge service to the community, good work.
As someone who farmed over 150divs last week running harvest i agree with you .Crop rotation is heavy RNG based and at this point its a very underwhelming keystone .The best yield per map came for me from 8mods wandering path with gilded/polish scarbs combo Growing Hordes.
Agreed. With this VERY CONSISTENT and stable farming method I averaged around 3500 yellow lifeforce per map, resulting in basically 0.6div earnings or like half a div profit. No reason to give that up for crop rotation
Even buying the double life force and force yellow, the normal version of harvest is way better in terms of rewards than CR. I did test both too, and sure, it looks cool when you get like 6k yellow life force, but when you enter the harvest and there are only 3 camps you already know you wasted scarabs, an use of the compass, a map and your time because there is no way it will drop a decent amount of life force. Also tested several farm methods and still find that harvest is one of the best outside sanctum (which i can't do because Impending Doom don't let you see anything), i really was hoping the keystone was something good, but as you said, too RNG based.
@@CrisHermetica good thing is, as strong as harvest is right now with WP it really doesn't need a new keystone to be worth running. Actually for me its one of the best, most consistent solo farming options we have, and thanks to the huge demand its always very stable
Can you share your tree
Does using wandering path mean I can't run other contents because it disable all the notables right? sorry new to poe
Been watching poe content for a long time, this is a solid video. Appreciate the info!
crop rotation is also good for proccing the bosses consistently.
Finally a PoE content creator that doesnt cut out the bad drops.
I got baited by a crop rotation vid that only showed the big explosions and was utterly disappointed when I tried it myself.
I think the extra hassle is only worth it in a SSF environment where you need a specific lifeforce and/or a blossom
Thank you for all the hard work!
Time should be a factor. The all T1 upgrade plots spawn all monsters at once so you don't have to wait. I can finish Crop Rotation maps roughly 30 seconds faster than a standard Harvest map, and actually got comparable div/hr (8-9) results from CR compared to a standard WP farm.
Also, CR is a game in itself. It might be RNG-dependent, but it's certainly more fun than the normal harvest where you simply choose the highest T3 seed plot. With CR, You get to experience the mini-excitements when you enter the grove and see a great 5 plot field and when not wilt triggers.
Yeah, that's true, i haven't had more fun in while than with this keystone. Also wilt being not useless but actually hella useful is new to me, excitement goes through the roof)))
Agreed with this as well.
Before crop rotation I was honestly pretty bored with harvest, just scanning for good crops and taking some yields.
But now, Just seeing 4+ fields on a harvest is already some excitement in itself.
And don't even get me started on the dopamine rush you get when your crops don't wilt.
Best I've gotten so far is 4 Tier 4 crops. Hoping to get something like that again soon.
its not fun when you enter and there are only 3 harvests
yeah crop rotation can get pretty fun, it's actually a lot more interactive and to be honest i kind of enjoy that alternative to just mindlessly clicking whatever has a higher t3 count. you found that you're actually saving more time with crop rotation? i have seen a few people say the same thing, but most say crop rotation takes them longer to deal with. is it because of the waiting for tier 3 mobs to spawn in when you're dealing with more crops that have tier 3 beasts? for me i didn't really notice much of a time difference, aside from the fact that plots with no tier 3 beasts can be completely ignored when not using crop rotation, which does shave off a bit of time. but i wasn't actually recording the time spent in the harvest so i can't be sure if it just felt the same, or if there was a significant difference
Yes, I play an occultist, so I insta kill monsters that spawn at once. There is definitely time saved from having to wait for fewer T3 plots to spawn every map.
Aside from that, I have done enough CR harvest to reach the point where the optimal choices and sequence occur almost instantly to me, so I don't spend any extra time thinking.
I also don't ignore plots without T3 seeds in harvest without CR so that could be why I was slower with normal harvest.
At current bulk prices (>100000 per trade), yellow lifeforce is selling for around 85% more than blue/purple. Same for the compass price. Using purple/blue dupe compasses and aiming for max yellow lifeforce is not a bad idea at all according to my runs.@@teekeh
maybe blocking all seeds is the way to go with crop rotation, and boosting packsize + quant altars. Since all the seeds are almost the same price, you can focus on the one that has less crops (leaving for the end) once entering the harvest.
possibly, with how varying crop rotation is in its performance it's really hard to say without a huge sample size. i did seem to have slightly better return on yellow lifeforce while only blocking the 3 blue crop nodes even though there were less total plots. would have to do a ton more testing to be certain
@@teekeh I used this strategy in groupfound to farm Sacred Blossoms -- take all blocking nodes and crop rotation and run alch and go setup. In about 100 maps with crop rotation I saw probably 15 bosses, without crop rotation I saw 1 boss in 400 maps.
@@tuckvisonthis^ I switched about a week ago and have seen more t4s with it on than my total time running harvest for the league
Yellow is the best, around 1500 less goes for one div. Yesterday i sold it for 1/5000, while the others 1/6400
This just completely changed my ssf experience. Thank you for engaging in useful ways!
Thanks for the great video!
block yellow and purple hoping to have at least on yellow per run
Its more or less my experience, I went with crop rotation to farm blue for my crafts and it was much faster, but after doing my crafts removed it and the amount of lifeforce diminished just a bit, it was more spread between colors but since I didnt take notes thats all based on feeling. I did have more bosses with crop rotation and 2 emblem thingies to go kill boss which is a nice profit boost and without rotation I never get them... not sure if you took those into account, didnt hear it mentioned in video.
side fun note, if your doing a pure crop rotation strat or harvest ingeneral, the 25% (30% elevated) magic pack size sextant too can be spicy cause its helps buff altar mob gains which is fun hah~ little less meaningful if ur gilded growing hyoards and closing in on 100% pack size but its still fun
I’m fairly certain you’d want to reduce the appearance of the desired crop in crop rotation.
Yes, that's the only major flaw in the analysis. You want to have the fewest of the intended target crop because it improves the likelihood that you will be able to bump the tier most before being stuck with it. It's counter intuitive, but seems to be the design intent behind that entire passive cluster
As someone who hyper focuses efficiency in this game & always farm at least a few mirrors each league I can say that the best use for profit from regular non-memory harvest is in a boss rushing scenario on small maps where you only scout the harvest.
the reason for this is because you want to essentially “window shop” harvest meaning that you will quickly scout the harvest for boss plots- or if a tier 3 yellow plant has spawned with at least 2x mobs on the tier 3 reward
If neither of these things are true, you simply leave the harvest immediately, this will maximize your oshabi invitations per hour & also minimize time spent in the harvest itself while we invest absolutely nothing in compasses or forcing the harvest, we just scout the naturally spawned harvest spawns
When I saw & eventually understood the new keystone I knew it was barely worth it, it FORCES you to fully clear the entire harvest to see the rewards & that’s not where I personally see the reward factors about harvest.
yeah when you're talking about pure time efficiency with crop rotation the results definitely get a lot more complicated to calculate since its impossible to predict how any given crops are going to turn out, and the likelihood of you wasting a lot of combined time especially in 3 and 4 crop maps is pretty decent.
not to mention you have to dedicate a lot more skill points to crop rotation since at least 11 points are absolutely mandatory for it to function properly
in terms of pure atlas point efficiency there are at least 2 other mechanics that outperform any benefit crop rotation could provide at the same/less point investment
cheeeeeeeeerw!!! awsome work for the analysis, ive loved this crop rotation mechanic but its a weird one cause its NOT a wandering path juicing harvest, no its getting full value from notables hah. also its fun if its even a little loss, but the double loot and jackpots is nice idk~ only real trick is big 8 mod corrupted maps with growing hoard gilded scarabs can be spicy~
Personally I go with rotation if alch & go and without when running thick scarabs. It hurts my feelings when i use thick scarabs and then crop rotation trolls me over and over again. While in alch & go it does not matter as much.
great vid and data, gj!
Crop Rotation seems to need a specific "Harvest only" strategy. Because there's a lot of useless plots, your best way of approaching Crop Rotation is to try and maximize the juice per hour rather than juice per map. So take a map like Atoll with predictable Harvest spawn locations, rush to the Harvest and ignore everything else. If there's just 3 plots up, click through them but don't open. If no crop procs the 10% chance to not wilt, port out and open a new map. If one or more plots do proc the 10% chance or you have 4+ plots up, then do the Harvest and port out.
This method will offer you the ability to really quickly just ignore the bad outcomes and not waste time. And also, I feel like the sample sizes here are just too small for this so your numbers are subject to very heavy RNG swings, but I genuinely think Crop Rotation spawns more Harvest bosses than playing without it does. As a result I would add to your point of Crop Rotation being good for SSF target farming a specific color juice, that it's also a good way to target farm more Harvest bosses and get Crystallized Lifeforce.
I am a primarily alch and go player and ever since they made Harvest juice tradeable, I've had all Harvest passives on my tree practically all the time. I have never seen as many Harvest bosses as I have this league after trying out Crop Rotation. I'm not sure if the currency earned per Harvest is better or worse because I've not done any of the math, but I've definitely gotten more Oshabi kills done this league than I usually do.
Personally really like crop rotation but yeah you get less lifeforce overall but you get so much more from the lifeforce you want and a reason why I use that keystone because yellow lifeforce sells so fast.
Crop rotation is first of all best run with grand design, and also synergizes more with expedition than a wandering path strategy, I'm running a more expedition focused strategy currently with expedition nuke. You might get slightly less lifeforce overall but you get more harvest bosses and you get a juicy expedition.
Somebody did over a 1000 maps with different strategies, and I believe it came out to be ~6% more juice over with crop rotation. Which is quite nice. In addition to that, the amount of sacred blossoms you end up with is insane, so overall it's actually higher.
IMHO, the 7th gate with the current prices of sextants (~50-60c / 4 runs) is not worth the loss of ~10-15 atlas points. I'd rather spent those points adding some free income.
And we should also pointed out that its faster, when in normal you need to wait for 3 waves all the time - In Rotation you finish whole thing a lot faster because there's not much of waves to wait for. Let's say: 2 Mins for normal one and 1:30 for rotation, Overall 25% faster = more juice perH.
i completely agree with not using the 7th gate, there are a lot of mechanics that offer much better chaos per atlas point per map than the points spent to save ~1.5-3c per map. when i record full atlas strategies i usually try to document an approximate value per atlas point per map. this is my last project for this league so in these tests i was strictly just measuring CR vs no CR, so i ignored everything else which led to enough points to not bother buying compasses. do you happen to have a link to the data from the 1000+ map test?
@@teekeh Hey, yeah video and spreadsheets can be found here: th-cam.com/video/VzRRmwCnkoc/w-d-xo.html - I have no affiliation with the channel, just my yt knows I've been looking up a lot of info on harvest crop rotation 😂🥲
@@MattiKettuthanks! i actually ended up finding it shortly after you mentioned it, and it has a lot of great information. i wasn't aware that a discord existed that runs these kind of tests so i appreciate the heads up immensely
I am using it for an alch and go scenario. I see a lot more bosses compared to without it.
For me Crop rotation makes Harvest - as Addition to main setup, i would say
i've ran it like this - no investment in Harvest, except passives on Atlas, no map device craft - just raw chance to proc.
When i see it on map - i go in, if there's less then 4 crops - i'm out.
If those 4 are in bad setup - i'm out
This way - it usually when i run it - its kinda good
In bad cases - i just ignore it, cause it's not my main source of income :)
You can consider Crop Rotation - Volatility Support but for Harvest :D
6:24 i absolutly love the math so thank you, but theres actualy a different non compass strat that was missed. I've seen significant value in BLOCKING yellows for 3 points and thne 1 point in either blue or purple (which ever juice youd rather use but i did blue) cause it actualy helps you push 1 yellow plat with 2-3 plots of other colors to pump it with for the best long run yellow targeted returns since the yellow is almost 60% more expensive or something nutty hahaha~ though it almost never benefits, it is cool when you hit double/triple boss one or a 8-10 t3 one
actualy my bad, your method makes sense, you can just translate the color specific outcomes of sets 3 or 4 into a yellow equivilent. though crop rotation is extreemly dependnent on a per map strategizing which while fun, can slow ya down a lot hah
It turns harvest into lightning dmg (very low end yield and high yield ranges ) 😢
nice work teek really appreciated
how much dedication for a person to make currency wow outstanding
Wouldn't it make more sense to block the life force type you want for crop rotation? It's easier to upgrade it that way, since you want more of the other colors.
possibly yes, but adding a compass into the mix forces the majority of the crops to be the colour you're forcing with the compass, so to counteract that it helps a lot to block that specific colour.
i did try to block some yellow with alch&go before starting the data recording project, but it resulted in quite a few harvests with no yellow nodes at all
if you focus mainly on the revenue alone i'm sure there's more optimization for the tree than what i did here, but the main goal was to compare overall lifeforce income and crop interactions rather than test target farming a specific colour
you can get a pretty good idea on how the blocking performed based on the lifeforce screenshots at the bottom of the spreadsheets though
yes it would be.
it's wierd, i have seen ppls spreadsheet tests with hundreds of mapps and strategies, bouth gaining 50% more lifeforce with crop rotation, and other ppls tests showing crop rotation being a downgrade.
All in all, it kinda paints a picture, that even with hundreds of maps, crop rotation RNG probably needs thousands of maps to be tested, due to the MASSIVE variance of what a bottom-end and top-end luck, (0-20 lifeforce is a real possibility with crop rotation, while you can also get more than multiple divs of lifeforce on the high end).
crop rotation rng of what is possible top end and bottom end has so manny factors: how manny eater alters with quant did you get, how much packsize do you have, how manny starting crops did you get, how are the colours of your crops in layout aka same colour or not, how manny wilt procs did you get, and how manny doubling procs occured in all plots used.
The massive ammount of factors, just makes crop rotation a mega gamble, same as running eater alters for the hope of the divine alter
Originally, I thought/hoped for Crop Rotation to be like this:
+ Focus on one type of life force and get much more of that, but get much less to nothing from other types
+ Get more unique bosses overall (because you potentially upgrade a lot of tier 3's too, in theory that is)
- Get overall less value
- No way to skip low-value crops, you MUST do them all for value (normally you can skip crops that won't drop reasonable juice altogether)
- More dangerous because more Tier 3 plants must be fought at once
From your data, every point got verified EXCEPT the "spawn more bosses" one, instead it seems you got less bosses with Crop Rotation...
Crop Rotation currently is not worth running at all, it reduces profits, requires more time investment (have to do all plants and plan out what to run first etc.) and is harder too (it also requires more atlas points, unless you already plan to reduce certain kinds of colours anyways.
I hope GGG consider adjusting Crop Rotation with an extra line or so that makes it stand out, like "Base chance to upgrade to Tier 4 plants is doubled" or "Harvest Monster in your maps drop 50% increased quantity of Lifeforce if they are Tier 1 and 25% increased quantity of Lifeforce if they are Tier 2."
The first line would make it possible to try and farm more bosses than you would normally be able to get, the other line would buff the Lifeforce dropped by the least profitable Tier's that you are mandated to clear, making it at least more competitive to regular Harvest (maybe).
edit: I'm in the process of checking out another test of 100 map runs, so be aware that my above statements may not be entirely accuracte and are based off my own testing AND this video alone. I will adjust the comment shortly if I find the other 100 map test video to be convincing and with a different result!
Shouldn't you have clicked the other plot (yellow/blue) before clickling the purple one with the boss @1:30?
well, yes but also no. i had to think about this decision for a second and ultimately it made more sense to commit to the boss for a boss + 2 t3 monsters first and the hopes of buffing the other blue plot further
the only options that really made sense to me was to either what i did, OR take the blue in the y/b and then also take the blue in the p/b for a total of 11 t3 beasts. so at this point i was basically comparing 1 boss + 7 t3 beasts vs 11 t3 beasts. bosses drop roughly 3-4x the amount of lifeforce plus give a chance at blossoms so i went with the first option
this also meant that if by chance the p/b did not wilt, i would have at least 1 boss + 13 t3 beasts
i did however make a mistake of not clicking the yellow before the blue after i saw that the yellow didn't wilt on the last plot
@@teekeh Thanks for the detailed explanation!
in SSF with no harvest sextant what do i block to get the most yellow juice?
i'm not exactly sure, i don't think i had a big enough sample size to say confidently, and i think many people are split on what the best method of blocking is. i vaguely recall someone posting some data that showed blue was slightly more common than yellow, which was slightly more common than purple crops, but i'm not sure if that was a large enough sample size either.
i would say if you have no use for purple or blue and you're set on using crop rotation, definitely start out with blocking 3 blue and potentially one small (10% chance) yellow node, if you notice that you're consistently still getting too many yellow (in a 4-5 crop map, any more than like 2 yellow crops is going to start hindering efficiency), maybe swap the block over to the 25% yellow. if you consistently aren't getting enough yellow, start with blocking a 10% purple node, and so forth.
if crop rotation, block yellow, having less yellow means more chance to kill other color which will upgrade yellow, if u have everything but one non-yellow, your yellow will upgrade multiple times and will yield lots of yellow
omg, your build is so ethical :)
Thank you, I was wondering about just that ❤
Nice video. ty for testing this all :)
what i've been doing is running crop rotation while also doing shaper guardian maps and only chceking if the harvest has 5 fields to harvest if it doesnt i wouldnt even do it, no compasses no anything just chance from the tree which you can get to like 60% and each time you get a 5 plot harvest theres a good chance you get a boss and a 100c worth of juice + a chance for a blossom which is just a nice addition to invitation farming for very little time investment made about 10 div/hour this league with this method
Learning, thanks!
You can use 4 of the same scarab btw
i actually did not know that, thank you
Thank you SO much for this !
I dunno, Im running crop rotation and the worst ones still yield me enough to double the investment per map ( which is 12c to force harvest )
1:09 which build are you playing? i always wanted to make this build but i don't know which skill is
i'm playing an impale spectral throw champion, i have a video going over it if you're interested. you can see it here th-cam.com/video/pxRqq6mDDL8/w-d-xo.html
Great work!!
This time around, all three life forces are really close together in terms of price.
I remember last or last last league, you could sell 20-30% less yellow juice for the same price as other juice. I wonder how that would compare with Crop Rotation and if it still would want a teeny-tiny buff to be at least even.
if i compare the averages between the high investment sets, yellow lifeforce would have to be roughly 63% more expensive than it is right now while blue/purple maintain the same price for crop rotation to equalize in revenue per plot
but that was using blue/purple compasses, if i had swapped to a yellow compass i don't think crop rotation would ever be able to come close to the revenue of an optimized standard harvest setup
@@teekeh Awww, that is not good :c
I was hoping that you get rewarded for thinking with Crop Rotation, unlike the normal "just click yellow T3" harvest, but it seems the node itself could use some numerical increases.
I don't get the spreadsheet revenue breakdown. I can not find the compasses investment deducted from revenue nor added to investment cost? Am I missing something? According to the spreadsheet (take mid w/o node2 as an example) the average investment per map was 8c (just the scarabs). Meanwhile just a lifeforce dupe compass on TFT is going for 60-80c a pop.
sorry about that. i only documented revenue in these tests and not profit, which means i didn't subtract the cost of scarabs and the whole investment section was just remnants from a spreadsheet template i made for general farming tests where profit is the primary focus
i updated the spreadsheets with a note about it, thank you for pointing it out
Its a fun keystone but i cant get over the feels bad with the low-lows.
Also the investment getting croprotation far off in the corner makes me not taking it "for fun"
crop rotation has been good to me but not to such a degree that i'd say it's worth pathing to and taking
Wandering path for harvest also good.
in 90% cases i have 1-3 t3 seeds at crop.
ye it is, wandering pather also gets way more quantity and pack size on their maps because the central and upper small passive rows have 100% increased effect.
Though this makes maps way more difficult to run. 60% less aura effect + wandering path with the whole "hat" allocated is basically no aura effect. 96% less.
Another detrimental affix is 60% less life/mana/es regen. This becomes 96% less.
Others aren't a big deal. If you can deal with -15 max res you can deal with -23. But -96% aura or regen is yikes.
I wish you had done comparison with wandering path as it is the best strat for harvest farming anyways.
How is wandering path the best strat for harvest farming ? I though people say harvest is so reliatble to big notible snice it give you more chance for nore t3, chance for t4 to appear and chance to not wit.
It's completely worthless with wandering path. Chance to not wilt is far too important.
No harvest notables give extra chance for T3 seeds, the small nodes do, and WP doubles that bonus to T3 seed chance. With WP you also get around 40% extra quantity and 10-15%extra packsize on 8-mod maps.@@locmorningstar2740
@@tuckvisonnot completely worthless since the loot is better overall, and juiced maps are actually juiced. I dont mind getting a bit less lifeforce but a lot more other loot
@@Sanci777 we're talking about crop rotation wp, not wp in general -- wp is amazing with no crop rotation and the other harvest small nodes
Many of the changes to atlas this league were ssf focused. I strictly play ssf and they have been a god send.
yo good vid man
Could you please post your pob? Your build looks great
if you mean the spectral throw build i made a guide for that, pob and all of the other information is in the description of the video, you can find that video here - th-cam.com/video/pxRqq6mDDL8/w-d-xo.html
Thanks, im fairly new so I had no idea what you were playing, ill check it out
That's exactly the conclusion to which i came with my own testing. It's not worth taking Crop Rotation.
Yeah boys don't bother doing harvest, leave it to the professionals
😎
i heard that quality and quantity would effect the harvest just the monster pack size. did you noticed this to be true?
afaik both map quantity and pack size influence how much lifeforce drops, but player quantity does not
Good work.
Hi SSF player here. If i want to maximize certain colour should i block that colour on atlas or block other colours if using crop rotation?
block the color u want if playing crop rotation
Better question is what build are you using?
impale spectral throw champion, i made a video about it here - th-cam.com/video/pxRqq6mDDL8/w-d-xo.html
Ty for the video!
After 1000 maps I can conclude this is a Trash keystone, heavy rng & time investment. Believe me 😂
I think one of the reason why Rotation suck - is because of Heart of the Grove cluster. Cluster literally one step from being useless, if not for 10% chance not to wilt, holy = Its bad.
And that is the oposite for Wandering path - why Wandefing path is sooooooo strong.
Imagine losing 60% inc chance to contain T3 plants? Baseline worse(or same) farm than Rotation LUL
Also if my theory is right and T4 crops have 2% to appear per crop section (2 crops together) - Then 6 bosses in the first comparison is okay because its jump to 3.2% and it sounds about right, when in rotation there is 1 boss missing (sounds about right if chance is 1% per crop with T3 plants) and we have 10 crops lesser, because if think that this base% is what chance to upgrade tier is for Rotation.
But if its 1% per Crop, then ofc with "Heart of the Grove" there will be 2x more bosses and Rotation gonna have lesser amount overall.
Scarabs for pack size
I left a follow and a like :)
you dont think its good trying to force bosses either?
yeah you ideally want as many bosses as possible, but its a fairly low chance for a t3 crop to upgrade to t4 as it is. the chance for a tier 3 beast to go to 4 is definitely much lower than the chance for a t2 to go to t3. it's also not easy to do with 3 and 4 plot harvests, and 5 plot harvests made up for roughly 26% of the harvests. even a 5 plot with 1-2 saved crops that didn't wilt doesn't always result in a boss
@@teekehso I’ll be completely honest I didn’t listen to the whole video to look at your what your logic is behind what plots you choose. But based off the sample size you provided I can already say that it’s too small to make a useful estimation, based off the RNG nature of the keystone.
I have farmed about 750k yellow juice this season with the keystone. I believe I’ve gotten returns well above what I used to get with harvest life force drops in previous leagues, even in a non optimised set up for harvest, as I was doing formed/elder slayer invites and decided to take advantage of the static pack size nodes.
What I found was in order to get bosses and consistentish double plot harvest of like 7+ tier 3 plants, you needed to be willing to make sacrifices. Like if I had two plots left, both with two yellow tier 3 plants on it, I would sacrifice one to reroll the other. If I had3 plots left and they had 3 tier 3 plants, I would sacrifice one to reroll the last two. This paid off more often than not.
My last run of elderslayer sets I farmed about 120 maps and pulled over 250k juice, 50ishk blue juice and maybe 10ishk red juice. So averaging around 2k yellow juice per map and at least 2.5k juice total per map.
When I tested harvest without the node I was getting a similar amount of juice per map but spread evenly between the less valuable life force. Idk I think the node is fairly balanced.
Edit; yeah looking at your spreadsheet, I think your margin of error is still pretty high because of the low sample sizes, I think if you had a few more spiked maps where you drop 7-8k life force in a map could have easily brought that number to even or even ahead.
And again, it’s really worth weighing the fact you can spec into gold juice. Across my farm I farmed 750k gold juice, I was forced into taking 150k..ish blue and 50kish red. So if you look at 2k vs 2.3k juice but you can guarantee 80% of that 2k is 20% more valuable or even more as the league progresses, that lower life force number still looks better imo. I know you mention it at the end but I’m not sure if you’ve done the actual math on it…it works out to be the same if not favourable towards crop rotation.
Unless idk you’re doing yellow crop sextants which I think are too expensive at the current yellow juice prices when you can take the other sextants for half the price and go crop rotation, then the guaranteed blue/red plot works in your favour most of the time. But I’m not gonna do the napkin math on that. Sorry for all the edits, posting on the phone, hard to keep track of the word salad
@@hrodwulf172 yeah i do completely agree that a larger sample size as well as sampling with less variance (possibly just white maps, no doubling season or bountiful harvest) will provide better results. this is something i do plan to test more of in the future
its an overall very interesting node that has a lot of potential but the huge amount of variance and swings makes drawing conclusions with small sample sizes of data potentially inaccurate which is why my evaluation on whether the node is good or not at the beginning of the video was really inconclusive
@@teekeh yeah, all that said I should have commended you on the way you presented the data, very well compiled info. All it needs is more of it! Great content still.
Pretty much the same conclusions I came to running it for about 5 maps.
TDLR: its not
I once hit a really jucy crop, it had 4 unique crops. Got 2 sacred grove maps from it, forgot how many yellow lifeforce it was tho.
is playing the game profitable!?@?!?!?!??!🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀
It's crap 90% of the time. So probably not.