This "desperate search for atonement" also lead to child sacrifice in various cultures, in my opinion. This is a brilliant and helpful episode, and it validates a less-sophisticated theory that has been rattling around in my mind for a while: that identity politics comes from a lack of understanding of fallen human nature. When people don't understand the truth, they want to blame whatever seems like the most obvious target in sight.
When I was in Minneapolis during the George Floyd riots I remember seeing long long lines of white college women all dressed in black moving in long groups. At the time I thought wow this is a religious procession. It felt much more religious than Marxist. But there were those elements as well in other parts of the city. It was like a solumn procession of guilt. The vibe was VERY religious
@@michaelderenzi5230 Plato believed that power should be put into the hands of a small elite. An intellectual elite. Aristotle thought that the middle class should have power. I also think that Plato was much more other-worldly than Aristotle and Rand didn't like that. She didn't believe in a faith-based system but that reality is what we can see and touch. Aristotle's ideal of the magnanimous man who is grounded in reality - the here and now - is what we need. Not an elite contemplating eternal forms.
A point that Prof.Mitchell makes is that Marxism is itself a pseudo-religion that uses religious concepts. So it isn't Marxism or religion but one pseudo-religion or another. I think Nietzsche would agree.
Good conversation! I wonder if treating identity politics as heresy is a bit of "overfitting". Just because a competing religion borrows elements from Christianity (especially when they have been toiling for 100 years to corrupt a once-Christian culture) doesn't mean that Christianity is the foundation of the worldview. Without the shared foundation, there's no productive discussion to be had on the "shared" ideas. We may use similar words, but the meanings are fundamentally different. There's also not a good faith attempt to be self consistent from the woke. The goalposts have moved and will move as the consequences catch up with the powers that be. The idea that we can somehow reclaim the Christian principles from the woke's perversions seems akin to building a mansion from parts claimed from a tornado ravaged trailer park.
Pretty good interview, tho' as a Gen X conservative, I feel that there was a certain amount of straw-manning of "conservatives," especially when it comes to Marxism. As an avid reader of James Lindsay, when I say identity politics is "Marxist," that is far from being dismissive of it as a spiritual force or as a threat. Quite the opposite. Lindsay has shown that Marxism is, in fact, a religion, one in which man is God. It has its own eschatology, and it owes a lot to the Gnostic/Hermetic ideas of Hegel, and a lot to to the occult. It is not merely an economic theory. I know this from personal experience because I grew up in a denomination that taught Marxist ideas as a moral system, referencing verses like "blessed are the poor." Nor can we say that identity politics is not Marxist because it's not about social class. Marxism runs on hatred and envy, locating the problem in The Oppressor. Class was not a salient enough category in the U.S. to map this system onto ... but race was, or could be jerry- rigged to be. It's a Marxist operating system running code that's Race (and sexuality) instead of Class. That's why James's latest book is called Race Marxism.
Thanks for having Joshua Mitchell on the pugcast!
I will be listening to this podcast again and again. Thank you, all. 57:34
Great episode fellow Pugmasters!
This "desperate search for atonement" also lead to child sacrifice in various cultures, in my opinion. This is a brilliant and helpful episode, and it validates a less-sophisticated theory that has been rattling around in my mind for a while: that identity politics comes from a lack of understanding of fallen human nature. When people don't understand the truth, they want to blame whatever seems like the most obvious target in sight.
This was an incredible episode!
I would absolutely love to hear Professor Mitchell talk to Bishop Barron.
When I was in Minneapolis during the George Floyd riots I remember seeing long long lines of white college women all dressed in black moving in long groups. At the time I thought wow this is a religious procession. It felt much more religious than Marxist. But there were those elements as well in other parts of the city. It was like a solumn procession of guilt. The vibe was VERY religious
As Ayn Rand has often pointed out, Plato is the source of our problems. Aristotle is the solution.
Can you expand on this?
@@michaelderenzi5230 Plato believed that power should be put into the hands of a small elite. An intellectual elite. Aristotle thought that the middle class should have power. I also think that Plato was much more other-worldly than Aristotle and Rand didn't like that. She didn't believe in a faith-based system but that reality is what we can see and touch. Aristotle's ideal of the magnanimous man who is grounded in reality - the here and now - is what we need. Not an elite contemplating eternal forms.
What does the term "the moral economy" mean?
A point that Prof.Mitchell makes is that Marxism is itself a pseudo-religion that uses religious concepts. So it isn't Marxism or religion but one pseudo-religion or another. I think Nietzsche would agree.
Good conversation!
I wonder if treating identity politics as heresy is a bit of "overfitting". Just because a competing religion borrows elements from Christianity (especially when they have been toiling for 100 years to corrupt a once-Christian culture) doesn't mean that Christianity is the foundation of the worldview.
Without the shared foundation, there's no productive discussion to be had on the "shared" ideas. We may use similar words, but the meanings are fundamentally different. There's also not a good faith attempt to be self consistent from the woke. The goalposts have moved and will move as the consequences catch up with the powers that be. The idea that we can somehow reclaim the Christian principles from the woke's perversions seems akin to building a mansion from parts claimed from a tornado ravaged trailer park.
Pretty good interview, tho' as a Gen X conservative, I feel that there was a certain amount of straw-manning of "conservatives," especially when it comes to Marxism.
As an avid reader of James Lindsay, when I say identity politics is "Marxist," that is far from being dismissive of it as a spiritual force or as a threat. Quite the opposite.
Lindsay has shown that Marxism is, in fact, a religion, one in which man is God. It has its own eschatology, and it owes a lot to the Gnostic/Hermetic ideas of Hegel, and a lot to to the occult. It is not merely an economic theory. I know this from personal experience because I grew up in a denomination that taught Marxist ideas as a moral system, referencing verses like "blessed are the poor."
Nor can we say that identity politics is not Marxist because it's not about social class. Marxism runs on hatred and envy, locating the problem in The Oppressor. Class was not a salient enough category in the U.S. to map this system onto ... but race was, or could be jerry- rigged to be. It's a Marxist operating system running code that's Race (and sexuality) instead of Class. That's why James's latest book is called Race Marxism.
Gramsci looms large here. The idea of shifting Marx's oppression paradigm from class to race/gender is over 100 years old.