Praying to the Saints? A Catholic and a Protestant Talk (Fourth of Five Conversations)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ส.ค. 2024
- Dr. Jeremy Holmes and I talk about Mary, the Catholic doctrine of the saints, and what Catholics believe about prayer to or with them.
This is PART FOUR of a FIVE PART series of conversations
Here are links to all five parts of this series:
Part 1 (Where we compare notes about big picture similarities and differences between Protestants and Catholics) - • A Protestant Talks Wit...
Part 2 (Where I ask if Catholics believe Protestants are Christians) - • Are Protestants Christ...
Part 3 (Where I ask about Catholic beliefs about Mary) - • A Protestant Asks a Ca...
Part 4 - (Where I ask about praying to saints) - • Praying to the Saints?...
Part 5 - (Where I ask about violence in the name of the church) - • Is Violence In the Nam...
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Petition for the last instalment of this series just to be them eating.
I second this.
Yes please
I third this.
Motion carried?
Is the food still edible?
Dr. Holmes is caught off guard, pauses for a moment, has a good long think about it and can therefore give a reasonable answer. Allowing for that makes for a great discussion. I love it
I thought the same thing when I saw that. I had admiration for both of them in that moment. One man had the confidence to take the time he needed and the other had enough respect to give it.
I agree but also disagree. He didn’t offer a good response and how could he not have answered that specific question 100 times already? It seems to me a Catholic theologian should know that question is coming when talking to a Protestant.
@@jerryyoung6494 Yikes! He is on the spot and doing the hard work of defending the faith. I think this catholic theologian is doing a great job and probably agrees that with time and prep he could have added more. But what he did was pretty good!
@@AmberFaganello don’t get me wrong, I have enjoyed this series and I’m not saying he’s dumb or uneducated or anything like that. I also admit I have a Protestant bias. But…any Catholic apologist/theologian who goes into a discussion with a Protestant about church issues should absolutely KNOW the question of Mary and saints is going to come up. It’s guaranteed! I thought his scriptural reasoning was weak. Maybe that’s my bias coming out. But my main thought was surprise he hasn’t heard the same question 100 times
@@jerryyoung6494 what question are you referring to specifically?
Funny, when I started this series I was watching you Matt because I wanted to reinforce my beliefs as a Protestant, but since then, my faith has blossomed and I've become a Catholic, and now I watch because I love your heart (did before too of course) and passion for Christ, and really hope to see where your faith leads you in the future. God bless you, brother.
Wow! This is amazing!
Awesome! And WELCOME HOME. ☺️
@@GratiaPrima_ Thank you Melissa! I'm in week 2 of an 8 week RCIA course right now.
@@randumgaming awesome! You won’t regret it.
Welcome Home :)
Good to see Catholics and protestants having a nice sincere exchange rather than simply trying to show each other's errors ....
"Errors" is a nice word for "Lies" .... If it ain't true , it ain't from God .... it's from the "other guy" ..... Not a small matter
@@shure46 Nobody claimed it was small matters which is exactly why we need to have normal fruitful and respectful debates about this rather than mindless slander and condemnation which will not lead us further to truth.
@@shure46 I was just being polite ;-)
@@cop2998 exposing satan's deceptions is neither "mindless" or "slander" , it is what every Biblical Hero did , and usually they got murdered for it , including Jesus Himself .... so no , it's NOT a small matter .... I already know that
@@shure46 Who said exposing Satans lies are mindless or slandering? Just like nobody said it was a small matter.
what I said was "we need to have normal fruitful and *respectful debates* about this rather than *mindless slander* and condemnation."
This is not the same as saying "Exposing Satan´s lies is mindless slander".
It’s like reading a favorite book series and not wanting it to end!
As a devout Catholic with many Protestant and atheist friends, I’ve loved this conversation! We need to better catechize our people. In the past 50 years the level of understanding of the Church, Her role and Her mechanisms has almost disappeared. I teach 5th grade catechism and they come to me in some cases with no understanding at all and I’m starting from the basics. But they get so fascinated they don’t want to stop asking questions. I’ve had to put a 15 minute question and answer period at the end of each class because they’re on fire to learn.
You are so right! So much of the arguments we have are about false teachings that people have been misinformed about somewhere along the way... and want to hold on to! Good faith formation would solve so many problems!
This is exactly why I loved my theology classes with Dr. Holmes in college - absolutely incredible! I was at a conference last year and he led a seminar on the 7 days of Creation, and he absolutely blew my mind with how he explained what the separation of light and darkness really meant: the fall of Satan. I had never heard anyone explain it like that before, and it all finally made sense, as I had never been particularly clear on how the separation of light and darkness was different from the separation of day and night (other than that they were both spelled out in separate places, so I knew they had to be different in some way), but the way he drew it on the board and explained it to us (we had both Catholics and protestants in the room) made it perfectly clear.
Wow see what good catechism can do? I am 30 and just now learning the depth of my Catholic faith and I have to say it is much more beautiful than I thought it was before. I have had research much of what I learned and now all the pieces are coming together like a puzzle. I’m thankful that those 5th graders have you to properly catechize them. Well done 👍🏼
@@SnowySpiritRuby does he have online classes
@Amber Faganello problem is catholics don't follow the bible... Saul contacted Samuel but was scolded for it thus an example of yes they can hear but it's not right to pray and worship them... bible state talking to the dead is a sin thus why would anyone do it... catholics prayer and worship of marry and suits is just a new pagan ancestor worship practice; Jesus said there was none greater than John the Baptist yet catholics pray and worship marry and modern saints... most importantly bible say God is a jealous God; since we as Christians can speak to the father directly through Jesus then how sinful is it to instead say sorry God the father but I'm more interested in praying and worshiping others?
Scriptural Support for praying to Saints and Angels. The verses below show that Saints and Angels can hear us, they are alive, they are aware of us, they care about us, and they intercede and mediate for us.
Praying to Saints and Angels is like asking a fellow Christian to pray for you.
Luke 15:7
Rev 5:8
2 Maccabees 15:8-16
Praying to Angels
Luke 15:7
Rev 8:3
Tobit 12:15
In a prayer attributed to St. Francis. It says.....
"Lord let me not so much seek to be understood as to understand. To be loved as to love"
Matt, seems like you exemplify this.
I think conversation between brothers in Christ is far more illuminating than 'I win you lose" style debate.
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace:
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy.
O divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
Amen.
Might be one of my favourite prayers!
But St Francis is not the Author.
Yes, but also there are times when we need to stand for truth and the other person is objectively abiblical or unbiblical, like a lot of the nonsense "Christian" movements in pop culture. We want to love those who truly follow Christ who wear different church labels, but for those who we know subscribe to unbiblical philosophies, we should stand for truth and preach the actual Gospel
Because remember, the anti-christ wants to make a one world religion.
I agree to an extent. Are you going to have a back and forth conversation with someone who thinks that the sun isn't real and discuss whether the sun actually is real? In that case, you can't really do anything except defend the truth because there really only is one truth, that is, the sun is real. No matter how convincing or nice sounding the person that thinks the sun isn't real is, it doesn't change the fact that the sun is real.
Likewise, the Catholic church does indeed have many doctrines that are heretical as per the Vatican documents and the church has not dropped the documents. Yet people strangely want to discuss as if the heretical issues as if there's no line on what is true or what is Biblical.
Roman Catholic here and I love your channel! Keep up the great work and God bless you!
Ex catholic here and revelation 18:4 literally talks about Vatican City aka Roman Catholicism and GOD says that come out of the doctrines in revelation 18:4
@@Watermelon-dj8be I'm not here to argue religion or theology; just expressing my support for the channel and the work this man has done!
@@Watermelon-dj8be Literally? So it says in the Bible "Vatican City"? You must have a different Bible or you are lying.
This is what my Bible says in Revelation 18:4:
4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,
“Come out of her, my people,
lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues;
So, yours, I suppose, is like this:
4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,
“Come out of Vatican City, my people,
lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues;
Or, do you mean you interpret the verse like that, but in fact it doesn't LITERALLY say that?
How are things where you are, in Rome?
@@Watermelon-dj8be Read it. Didn't see that
The people alive during the Protestant Reformation would have been baffled by this honest conversation. Well done, Matt & Dr. Holmes!
Thanks Ashton. I think Dr. Holmes is a man of remarkable insight and character.
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Agree 1000%, and I was honored to have him as my Latin and Scripture professor. He was one of the only reasons I made it through college successfully and graduated on time with the rest of my class. Hands down my favorite professor ever. That "pause, think for a bit, carefully word the answer" really brought back memories - he did that at least once every class session (as did all the other theology professors I had there). Watching these, I felt like I was back in class with him freshman and sophomore year.
If Luther saw how Protestants would turn out today😂😂
@@ClaimClam He wouldn't have any regret if he saw how even more corrupt the catholic church has become.
As a Catholic this guy is my favorite Protestant, very respectful to our Faith. God Bless brother
I totally agree - it isn't easy to find a kind discourse between our two sides. That shouldn't be the case! We are one body of Christ and should have more compassion with each other. I love these videos.
Easy to like someone who doesn't ruffle feathers lol.
If you look more to saints and Mary for your prayers and thoughts, you are taking your focus off of God. Why would you want to do that?
I don’t though
@@camp5607 it is a devotion. It is something you consider as supplementary prayer, you still focus on God, but you also attach prayer to the saints
I’m an ordained Protestant minister and my father In law is an ordained lectern in his eastern right Catholic Church and also in leadership within the KofC. We have great conversations about theology and the differences of our faith. No arguing, no condescending, just good conversations.
@NM this is a major one already, its idolatry (against first commandment); it's catholics pagan ancestor worship that's forbidden in the bible... God is a jealous God and condemns ppl talking to the dead or putting anything above God yet catholics say God is not enough for them so they put him in the back seat...
How long have those chicken wings been there?! Do you ever eat any of them?
Aren't they bearclaws though?
@El Cid 🤣
@@FailedAragorn aren't the waffled potatoes?
I'm not sure if Protestants and Catholics are allowed to pray together. No pray = no eat.
@@jr445u bad planning.
Super thoughtful and respectful interview with a side of confrontation. I wish we could all have discussions like this.
Home run Matt!
Yes, the world needs more love and respect
The world needs Gospel Truth
Please invite Trent Horn on!
Trent Horn, Dr. Pitre, Tim Staples, Jimmy Akin, etc.. 😊
I second this!
I hope Trent watches this video and request to have a dialogue with this Pastor. Dr. Jeremy lets him get away with to much and just nods his head.
@@henrysan8789 He is a very polite man. Someone like Trent Horn or Tim Staples would challenge him a bit more
Please invite Matt Dillahunty on!
I think this video hits one of the most important and misunderstood truths about church tradition and doctrinal development.
Catholics don’t just ‘make up’ beliefs or teaching. Each measure of Sacred Tradition chimes with something in Sacred Scripture but the RC church does also place a great importance on the deposit of faith, not written in sacred scripture alone, but also delivered and developed through the ages by the church fathers and theologians to this very day.
Another great video Matt, thanks for sharing.
The pope (an elected official) makes up rules or changes rules as he goes
@@BobbyCulpepper.srv3fender The Pope has only spoke ex-Cathedra twice (I believe) in the entire 2000 year history of the Church.
Why do protestants follow the Sabbath of the catholic church and not the Sabbath of the bible
@@gordo191 Wiki it, it’s all there.
@@misererenobis8900 I will do what GOD commands not a man ,
You are helping me grow in virtue of patience, with this delayed postings. God bless.
You are a master of back handed compliments 😁😁😁
The world needs more of these respectful dialogs to bring us closer together in the collective body of Christ.
Amen!
We need more respectful people like you holding conversations
I am so happy with this respectful conversation. I really want you and Austin (Gospel Simplicity) to have a conversation. This is a beautiful dialogue. I will be sad when this conversation is over but honestly I will just hope it will continue with a new meal in 6 months.😁
Halley, you are truly everywhere. ;P
😂 6 months
Matt, this is a phenomenal series! You and Dr. Holmes do such a great job of articulating your points without the discussion devolving into petty gotchas and jabs that are all too common in modern discourse. The goodwill on display here is super refreshing, and you guys both clearly show the love of Jesus. Well done.
I'm Baptist but during the lockdown (while on the other side of the planet from my home church), I started "praying to" the saints, following the reasoning that since it's OK to ask fellow any Christian to pray for me and John 3:16 would mean that Christians in heaven aren't really dead, it's fair to ask the saints to pray for me. Since I'm working at a preschool, I regularly ask St Benedict and Fred Rogers to pray for my students (while still praying to God to help me help them). I don't want to be overly skeptical or credulous, but there does seem to be a difference. Course, I've also started saying the Hesychast Jesus prayer on a Catholic rosary so maybe I should finally start identifying as an ecumenical mutt.
I mean look at what Jesus tells Mary when she Prays for the needs of the marriage in Canaan to the Lord, Jesus obeys the authority of His mom, even though He admits it's not even His time! Jesus obliges the requests of Her most immaculate heart.
Moses also prays for us, so does Abraham all in Heaven, they care about us, we are the people we hear them pray for in the Bible to God. Jesus is the Answer, through mama Mary.
Why to pray for them when you can just directly pray to God which is the one will hear you?
@@galliards1831 I'm guessing English is is not your first language.
I do pray to God.
I did not have anyone I could quickly ask "can you pray for me?" That's why I started asking the saints to pray for me.
If someone asks you to pray for them, do you say "no, go pray for yourself"... ? If someone says "can I pray for you," do you tell them not to?
@@Jerry-er6lq but its only normal because the person we have asked is still alive and still a sinner, its only natural to ask help to someone that is still alive, you know just like how we cant pray to the dead people
And what im reffering to dead people is us when we die not the saints
As a devout catholic, I love your channel. I love how you present your points of view as a protestant but also allow your guests to give a full explanation of their points of view without interjection or interruption. I'm able to see things from both sides and thanks to that I've come to appreciate some of the points that protestants argue even if I disagree. Thank you for your great work!
Waited so long. So excited!!! Thank you for your amazing work Matt.
Absolutely love the efforts you're doing to reach across the aisle and have these conversations. I look forward to the last video!
I really appreciate your work, Matt. I learn a lot from you, not only in knowledge, but also in humility and learning what it means to listen. You're a gift to the Church, brother.
Love this from St Agustin: When it comes to the Saints we given them “ dulia” which means honor,veneration. When it comes to Mary, we give her “ hyperdulia” which even means more honor and veneration. When it comes to God , we give him “ latria” which is worship and worship belongs to him alone.
@Royal S I’d disagree I’d say Marian Devotion brings me closer to Christ
@Royal S I’d say Mary brings you close to Christ and plays an important role in that. And I’m correct
@Royal S Mary is the God-bearer, meaning the Son of God, Who is God because He is the Light that comes from God before all ages, incarnated and really, truly took flesh in the womb of the chosen holy Woman prophesied in Genesis, Saint Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, the New Eve.
So, Mary is the attestation that God took human nature, and forever is united with it, for Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, and thus the human nature is from now at the side of God.
Imagine being the Mother of God on Earth. That doesn't happen everyday.
That's why Mary, filled with the Holy Spirit, said: "My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." - Luke 1: 46 - 48
We shall call her blessed, we shall love her, for she is the Mother of Our Lord.
@Matheus Motta Problem is catholics don't follow the bible... Saul contacted Samuel but was scolded for it thus an example of yes they can hear but it's not right to pray and worship them... bible state talking to the dead is a sin thus why would anyone do it... catholics prayer and worship of marry and saints is just a new pagan ancestor worship practice; Jesus said there was none greater than John the Baptist yet catholics pray and worship marry and modern saints... most importantly bible say God is a jealous God; since we as Christians can speak to the father directly through Jesus then how sinful is it to instead say sorry God the father but I'm more interested in praying and worshiping others?
@Kyrptonite18 the bible condemns adding to the bible as catholics do; praying and worshiping others is pagan ancestor worship... Saul contacted Samuel but was scolded for it thus an example of yes they can hear but it's not right to pray and worship them... bible state talking to the dead is a sin thus why would anyone do it... catholics prayer and worship of marry and saints is just a new pagan ancestor worship practice; Jesus said there was none greater than John the Baptist yet catholics pray and worship marry and modern saints... most importantly bible say God is a jealous God; since we as Christians can speak to the father directly through Jesus then how sinful is it to instead say sorry God the father but I'm more interested in praying and worshiping others?
Proud to say you are an old friend of mine. Keep up the good work, brother.
Thanks my friend. I've learned a lot from you and I appreciate your friendship. I hope the family is doing great!
Matt, I always enjoy the dialogue you and Dr. Jeremy have; it's enlightening yet very respectful. We need to have you sit in with the next council the Catholic Church has and let y'all hash out the details so we can, again, be one with each other.
Y'all Be Safe!
These conversations are so enlightening! Very calm, very respectful, wish we could all get along in this manner.
Dr. Holmes is one of the most humble people I know, and I'm honored to call him a friend. I might not know Matt personally, but he said on the first episode that the two of them are friends, and all the videos he's done on visiting different churches and asking questions make it very clear that he wants to understand better. I, too, wish more of these interactions could be more like this.
Right but it doesn't resolve anything all ot does is reinforce each side that they are right thus no positive outcome... catholics need to have conversations but also to be scolded for pagan idolatry extra biblical beliefs...
This is immensely helpful. Especially the thing about speaking with different levels of authority. I'm protestant, but my wife is Catholic, so I've gone to great lengths to understand this stuff. But that was extremely well put and truly helps. Probably my favorite of these videos.
I wish it was something that Dr. Holmes and his colleagues had included in our theology classes - it would have helped a lot of things make more sense - so I'm suggesting that he include it in them in the future.
I propose that this series be put into a playlist. please.
SECOND. trying to amplify this
You can create one and share it publicly. click the ... and the +save. If you make it public, other people searching for it can use view it too.
Yay, glad to watch this conversation. Seems like this subject has been everywhere lately. I truly believe in the communion of saints ☺️. God bless.
Thank you Mellisa, you are a blessed one
Thank you for sharing such a fruitful and respectful discussion!
Those must be McDonald's chicken wings (edit: or tenders?). They've been on that table for a year and half and haven't begun to decay 🤣
Incorruptible relic?
Can you run for president.
They’re waffle fries…which I think is more offensive that not a single one was eaten
@@wesleyrice8350 I think someone awkwardly attempted to eat one in one of the previous videos 😂
You guys are hilarious.
Man are you good at ending these on massive cliff hangers!!! This has been such a nice conversation
I appreciate this conversation. I have been raised Protestant, and I had a hard time justifying Catholic views. With this conversation and after watching your visit to the Catholic Church in Salt Lake, I can now comprehend better where their coming from and their views more even if I don’t necessarily agree with it all.
We don't need to justify their views. They believe and promote some very cultish doctrines. As good as many catholics are..many prop of this current pope and he is a total new world order leftist. Traditional catholics are ashamed of him. If you know the Bible well, you see the numerous false doctrines of the catholic church.
You guys need to pray to whoever the patron saint of reheating food is lol
Thankfully, those waffle fries reheat really nicely and remain yummy even if they do get cold (talking from personal experience - I've eaten there on occasion when I've been in or through that town).
I've always felt that God speaks to people in different ways if someone is saved and finds Jesus because of the Catholic faith and vice versa I'm all for it.
Thanks for this... As a catholic I appreciate this conversation a lot...
Same, to see a kind and truthful representation of the Church - which does encompass all believers - is so unbelievably refreshing.
I've really enjoyed listening to these talks. I'm a catholic convert raised methodist and experience a great deal of hate for my walk in faith. Seeing this level of respect you have for each other is amazing!
Regarding praying to the saints, as a protestant: I hadn't thought about it like that, but I almost came to that same conclusion over a day's thought about that particular verse about witnesses. As a Christian with Christian friends, I want my friends to pray for me, and to ask me to pray for them. I believe all believers are saints, as in sanctified, and I also believe the "first among equals" thing is from Jesus (see His plan for marriage). And I believe that all past believers are still alive spiritually, and their bodies are dead only on this side of the resurrection (which must be uncomfortable). I can very easily see asking believers who have fallen asleep to pray for us, and I don't know a biblical reason against that. (I haven't begun it, by the way. This conversation has convinced me to check it out, but I need to pray on it and check the Bible first.) Also, for those that think it's necromancy, I am very well aware of the worry there, but remember: "Therefore God is the God not of the dead, but of the living." (I may have misquoted, but the thought is correct.) Check on it for yourself. Ask God about it. You're sensible people, search the Scriptures.
You guys need to get together post-Covid and do another talk.
Agree, considering 99 % of most churches, protestant and catholic, voluntarily closed down and ran for their comfortable ivory towers when human souls needed them the most, it'll be interesting to see the handful of truly authentic churches that imitated Christ.
@@directdecker30 Couldn't agree with you more regarding how the churches reacted to last year's events. Shameful across the board. It reminded me of St. Charles Borromeo going out to bring the sacraments to plague victims in Italy while the churches closed and the priests hid. One looked like Jesus visiting and healing the lepers; the other looked like the disciples hiding in self-preservation during the crucifixion.
As an independent baptist "independant indivdual whom seems to align closest to baptist" love these. There was lot of false beliefs i have against catholics that this clears up. Keep going man.
As someone who aligns closely to your way of thinking, I started listening a couple of years ago to Catholic radio talk shows. I was tired of hearing from Baptists what Catholics believe. It has been very informative. From what I've heard I would say that Baptists are generally wrong about their assumptions of Catholic belief. The main guys I've listened to, or read articles from, are protestants who converted to catholicism so they are spot on about what protestants believe. It would be nice if we could have more honest dialog. It doesn't mean we all have to agree. I really enjoy these videos too!
As a former Protestant (now Orthodox), I would highly recommend for any Protestant to learn about Catholic/Orthodox beliefs from a knowledgable person (preferably a priest) from those respective sides, as opposed to other Protestants who may or may not have a bias against those groups.
I wouldn't take Dr. Holmes totally at his word, though. He underplays the authority claims of the Catholic church in order to seem more reasonable. For example, the Marian dogmas are absolutely necessary to believe as a true Catholic. You are not allowed to disagree. They are also totally non-Biblical. They come completely from tradition.
Comments like the one above me are exactly what I mean.
@@thekingofsomewhere
What he said is correct. It’s right in the Roman Catholic Catechism and any priest would be obligated to tell you it. Also, Roman Catholic intellectuals and debaters right here on TH-cam parrot the same thing, necessarily so. So what are you doing, now?
Thank you for these Catholic v Protestant conversations. You guys handled this in a way I wish my family and I could. I left the Catholic faith about two decades ago and I am a Protestant. My parents consider me an apostate. They believe I won’t go to heaven because I no longer practice Catholicism. We are close but there have been decades of unspoken words when it comes to faith. Often times they say things that are harsh but I let I roll off my shoulders. I consider their heart an remind myself that they genuinely believe what they believe and even though their approach is unkind, their heart means well. So I am quick to listen and slow to speak. Thank you for giving me hope in that some day my family and I will be able to have conversations like these.
They should read a Bible. You dont go to heaven because your Catholic. You have the gift of salvation for confessing that Jesus Christ is your personal savior and following him. Pray for them to come out of deception.
Excellent conversation. It is conversations like this that will bear fruit and bring about greater understanding. We can agree and disagree on many things but best of all we can remain agreeable.
In other words nothing gets resolved and ppl get easily mislead per false doctrine in Catholicism isn't getting called out... just on this topic alone catholics break the first commandment per they are putting others before God and the Bible in many ways condemns this form of pagan ancestor worship
Awesome conversation and I love watching people gracefully wading into the nuances. Also, massive kudos on throwing a giant cliff hanger in front of the audience. I adore and abhor you for that.
Literally the highlight of my day
Love the way both these Christian brothers are having a thoughtful discussion and not misrepresenting each other. I pray I may be this humble. God bless you all.
This is a great series of videos.
I dig this. The overall project has been very interesting to dive into. For the last year and a half I've been considering converting to Catholicism, but Lutheranism might be my ticket. These videos, as well other channels like Reason and Theology, Matt Fradd and Jordan B Cooper have all been extremely helpful.
I hope you keep considering joining the Catholic Church!
Perhaps! It was recommended to me by an RCIA teacher that I spend a year as a baptized Protestant (because at the time I was learning about the faith, I wasn't baptized yet - but had scheduled it) and so per her recommendation, I'll choose in October!
@Amber Faganello a catholic can be a Christian but that would make them a bad catholic for if they were a good catholic then they wouldn't be a Christian per Catholicism is separate from Christianity
I see a lot of comments justifying prayers to the Saints by likening it to brothers praying for each other; however, there seems to be a major difference between praying for a brother and praying to one. This is a difference that should be considered.
Short comment wich says allot.
He who has ears to hear and eyes to see let them understand.
@@Sola-Scriptura444 The use of the word 'pray' has become rather restricted lately. It means 'to ask' / 'to request' / 'to petition'.
We still have it in forms like 'Pray tell, what happened?'
And it is still used in law, when one submits a 'Pray for Relief' from a court of law.
I like the old use, and I use it that way whenever I can.
So I will pray something specific for my brother of he prays [asks] me to do so.
@@zapazap
*Isa.8:* 19When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.
Thank you for this civil conversation.
Thank you for the conversations.
The tradition among Thomas Christians of India is that St Thomas the Apostle got there by 50 AD or so. There wasn't any New Testament at that time.
So Syriac Malabar Orthodox Church is an Oriental Church, right and NOT in communion with Eastern Orthodox Church?
@@monkeydluffy-z5d They aren't because of they don't adhere with the Chalcedonian definition (hypostatic union of Christ) and are Miaphysites.
Yes, in general, Oriental (Church of the East) and Eastern (The Greek side basically) Orthodox are different.
ST THOMAS CHRISTIANS 👌🏾👌🏾👌🏾👌🏾
@Brian Farley He is buried in India.
There were certainly letters (epistles) that existed
As a convert in my late twenties and since from a varied protestant upbringing and background. One thing that opened me to the idea of a teaching authority was how many times before I got an answer on a question about scripture that someone said well some believe this or that, but that's something you have to figure out for yourself.
In reality, the church does have authority (responsibility, not power) and the Holy Spirit guides the global church on these things. But the traditions must not contradict scripture. That's the biggy
Do you know who else will give you concrete answers? Every cult ever made. I'm not saying Catholicism is a cult. I'm saying that the act of giving definite, concrete, answers is not, on it's own, a sign of truth.
If you've done much church history study, you'll notice how much Catholic belief has changed over time. The Marian dogmas are a great example.
@@Sgman1991 I don't think the Marian dogmas are a great example for it.
Yes, you can say the Church defined things that pertain to Mary, like how she is Immaculately conceived.
However, those dogmas are inherently accepted since the beginning (or can be reasoned), just not defined. Each Marian dogma/teaching/beliefs by the Church exists because it further enhances Jesus' identity as both human and divine.
@@PVCGunita I'm not sure what you mean by "inherently accepted since the beginning." The dogma of the immaculate conception wasn't created until 1854. Mary wasn't even mentioned as sinless until ~400 AD. Before that there were vague mentions of Mary being 'holy' or 'pure,' but they were nothing even close to the current dogmatic claims of the church. There were also many incredibly prominent Catholic church fathers who objected to it (Origen, St. Basil, St. Chrysostom, etc.) entirely, at the time.
There's zero reason to think the early church thought of Mary as sinless beyond the authoritative claims of the Catholic church.
@@Sgman1991 I'm not sure if you think this way, but it seems like because the Catholic Church "started" around the 400's, you think anything after that time period is all "fabricated" by the Church. Well that's quite a misconception.
What I mean by inherently accepted is that people hadn't thought much about it until there were questions and heresies forming against Jesus' identity. That is why councils are created in the first place, to combat heresies and resolve issues. Marian dogmas help form how the Church views Jesus's humanity and divinity.
Also, I don't think the Church Fathers vehemently rejected it. The Fathers call Mary the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption (Hippolytus, "Ontt. in illud, Dominus pascit me").
Origen calls her worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings ("Hom. i in diversa") [sounds like an immaculately conceived creature to me].
And here's an important thing:
Sure there were definitely individuals that question many things and ponder about them, like how Jerome questioned some books if they should be in the Bible, but these very individuals aren't authorities of forming the faith. They may influence how one thinks, but they are not sole authorities. It's the Church as a whole who makes the final decision. The Bible even says so.
I’m catholic this is wonderful. Thank you so much. I had a great time watching this series.
I love this! It's so helpful to hear a civil interdenominational dialogue where understanding and appreciation is the goal. Keep it up!
Well there is obvious interaction with Moses and Elijah on Mount Tabor at the Transfiguration of Christ. They are there and not ‘ghosts’.
Also, how can the Church (The Body of Christ) be disconnected?
The teaching of a disconnected…disjointed…or unrelated Church temporal and triumphant is heresy.
Christ (the Church) cannot be divided by our time (Chronos) or by death. He (and this is the Church) is outside our time in Kairos.
(In the Orthodox Liturgy when the Deacon says “It is time” to the Priest… the Priest says “Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father, and the Son and of the Holy Spirit now and ever and to the ages amen.”
At this proclamation… we have entered Kairos! We on earth join in the worship (as St. John saw in Revelation) that is already taking place before the throne of God.
When you walk in the Church, there’s the altar, incense, cloud of witnesses etc. The Church isn’t divided.
Believers are joined in Christ in the spirit, not in each other. We are only completely fulfilled as his 'Church' (assembly of the faithful) in the resurrection of the righteous in the age to come.
The interaction at the transfiguration is between Jesus (GOD) and the saints. Not between the disciples and the saints. When Peter wants to build tabernacles for Jesus and the two saints he is dismissed / scolded for not understanding.
Revelation 22:8-9. John is rebuked for adoration worship of an angel. Only YHWH (Father-Son-Spirit) is worthy of prayers and worship
@@Oldman-eu1ir So the Saints were not alive with Christ and the Apostles on Mount Tabor didn’t see them? You refute scripture?
Are you sure that everything that happened and every word right that happened there… is written down for your intellect to dissect?
@@stephenbailey9969
When believers go to Church they are physically there. The Apostles gathered physically together and something happened.
The entire Incarnation is God in Christ entering His Physical Creation.
We are told to pray for each other…lay on hands for healing and ordination, to Baptize (pretty physical).
We are called the Body of Christ and the Church.
Who appeared with Christ?
What does Paul mean by his death being present with Christ? Who are the cloud of witnesses and St. John’s vision?
Is part of the Bible untrue to you?
@@bonniejohnstone Everything you said is true. The Church is the people. (Church =from the Greek ecclesia, which means 'congregation of people'). It is not a hierarchy or particular denomination. It is the whole, built on the foundation of the apostles with Christ as the cornerstone.
But Christ's congregation of saints from across all time will not be completed until the resurrection.
To be out of the body is to be with the Lord. Our spirit goes to him. Our body sleeps in the grave.
But the saints of the Lord do not receive completeness in glorified bodies until we all receive them together on that day. As Paul said in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."
One of my favorite things about being Catholic is the worldview that through Christ we can ask the Saints and those hope for saints (departed loved ones) to pray for us. And that one day, I too, if I finish the race well (pray for me), I’ll be part of that Communion of Saints. Of course, I’m shooting for a feast day and cool Saint Card.
Amen!
Why would a saint listen to a prayer that Jesus would not? If we can pray to Jesus and he will hear us, then why the need for the middle man?
Would you say that saints act as a mediator then, between Jesus and you?
If so, how do you fit that into scripture, which says that Christ is the only mediator between God and man?
Genuinely interested
@@TimothyFish Our Lord listens to all prayers, heck, He knows our prayers before they become our own thoughts and verbalized. Our prayers and the Saints prayers are all directed to Christ. For us, we’re just one big congregation praying for each other. It’s like me saying, “hey Tim, pray for my family,” and St. Joesph, “pray for my family,” are one and the same. Both asks are made possible through Christ.
@@andrewmedina7588, but I have a TH-cam account that you can use to communicate with me through. To the best of my knowledge, St. Joesph isn't on TH-cam.
Awesome, awesome, awesome! May God continue to bless you and your ministry!
Beautiful. These conversations really blessed me. Our brothers in the faith!
As a protestant who has been wrestling with this a while, here is my argument FOR the practice: I will start with the assumption that Saints and Angels are with us at elast some of the time. This is suggested by Hebrews 12 where it says, "You have not come to a mountain quaking ... but to thousands of angels in joyful assembly, and the souls of the righteous made perfect." (Paraphrase) Sonce it says we HAVE come, the most straightforward way to take this is that at some point we have been somewhere where there are saints and angels as well. Next, I am going to assume that Demons can influence us. This is seen in passages such as "Why has Satan put this in your heart?" and "teaching doctrines of demons." If demons can influence us, cannot angels influence us as well? Need they manifest to influence us? Are we going to say that demons are superior to angels? If one accepts the premise that like demons, angels are aware of us, and can influence us, then they have to be aware of something about us. Elisha says to gahazi, "went not my spirit with you" so we know that in some cases we can be watched without a material presence manifest. If angels can see our actions, at least some of the time, then it would be possible to communicate with them, if by no other means, then at least sign language. Such a practice is not sinful, for many people talked to angels in the Bible, and are not once forbidden from talking. I believe it is possible to communicate with demons, and I stay far far away from the occult and necromancy and witchcraft. However I believe that those who practice such things are encountering something real, something evil. If we can talk to demons, can we not talk to saints and angels?? Do we really believe in a world where only evil will speak to you? I don't think such a view is supported by the Bible. there are many times that people speak to angels, and righteous people too. If you want the righteous people, then go to the transfiguration! Was Jesus engaging in necromancy? I don't think so. So my argument for asking saints for their intercession can be summed up as follows. Since saints and angels are aware of our actions, it is possible to ask them for prayer. Since "the prayer of a righteous man is very effective" and the souls of the righteous are "made perfect" (Hebrews 12) then such a practice is possible, and benificial. The worst case scenario is that the saint won't pray for you. I highly doubt that will happen. Obviously, this argument only works if we make the above mentioned assumptions plus the assumptions that the saints have the same ability as the angels in regards to bein aware of us. However if this last assumption does not hold, then it is still a good argument for asking angels to pray.
"If we can talk to demons, can we not talk to saints and angels?? Do we really believe in a world where only evil will speak to you?"
You make a good point on this one. That line stuck to me the most on your comment.
The rich man who died petitioned God (prayed) for his still living relatives. In his case the answer was no but it proves that the deceased can petition God for the living and that they (the deceased) still care for the living.
Father in heaven, knowing all of our intentions and motives, can you see Him after we die condemning us for utilizing prayers to Saints? as if St. Paul would say “ Father, brother Kevin keeps asking me to pray for his lost loved ones. I wish he knew these are wasted prayers because I can only see him and hear his request and be in his surroundings but I’m not supposed to bring them to You Father. That is the duty of those Christians in his church and circle of faith. Maybe Father, I’ll ask you, not for the salvation of his family because I’m not supposed to do that, but for you to send him someone else he could confide in on earth that could pray for him and with him.” And God responds “yes St Paul I will send him a prayer partner. Please stop relaying any further requests from Kevin.”
@@kevinmc62 Good point! Even if a protestant beleives such a practice is uneffective, can we at least agree that the intention is good? Of course everyone I know is of the opinion that it is idolatry :/ but that is because they are reacting to a stereotype and not Catholic/Orthodox actual belief and practice.
@@yb5515 well it was Abraham and not God in this instance unless i’ve got it wrong but it definitely shows that they care
Read “By What Authority” by Mark Shea, a former evangelical. Great logical discussion on sola scriptura vs Catholic tradition…
@Bill Martin
Bill,
I would capitalize Tradition and add Apostolic. The fact is, just like Scripture is divinely inspired, so is Apostolic Tradition, according to St. Paul.
God bless.
Matt, I love watching your show and also am a huge supporter of Africa Renewal Ministries. I’m supposed to go to Uganda next month, God willing, and catch up the the community we are involved in. Our church family has been supporting a community, medical center as well as a network of pastors over there and of course a bunch of kids. May God continue to bless the work you are doing. I appreciate your gentle touch dealing with what historically have been such divisive issues.
Glad to see this next part's up, and that the final part will be the next one - I won't have to pester Dr. Holmes to tell me the details.😉 (I didn't realize you had purposely spread them out so much until you said it - thank you for explaining that bit, as I know I wasn't the only one wondering, as I think Dr. Holmes was, too.🙃) I haven't eaten there since they reopened last spring/summer, but I'm sure nothing has changed and it's all still just as good as it was when you filmed this - they're great like that. We would love to have you back in town the next time you're in this part of the state!!
I should have said convert to Catholicism in my last comment. One thing I learned in my walk is that the church Catholic is still growing as the church whole, as all creation is, in labour pains, so to speak, in waiting for Christs return. As someone who has been a part of more than a handful of churches/denominations. One thing I came to appreciate with the Catholic Church, as I've struggled with coming into communion with her, is that that the teaching is defined, and as I've tested it, it has proven most true and accurate. I've learned about God, faith and walking in the spirit and truth, in various settings, but when the questions of Christian theology and doctrine got hardest, I found the Catholic teaching to be a rock others broke against. I should make it known that I've attended spirit filled non denominational churches even after becoming Catholic, and I've learned a lot from that, but theology wise things can get weird in those settings, and I've been thankful for my now Catholic grounding. About a year ago I had a profound thought, or at least I think so. With all the questions of truth, science, human biology, so on and so forth, as of late. Mathematically things work or they don't right? Your equation in some instances and how you solve it may look different, but ultimately there's a right and wrong or true/false answer. Same with science or biology, there's a way chemical compounds work together, and there's ways they don't. Biologically organisms need certain things to live, grow, and be/stay healthy. Now people can skew data to make it look correct at first glance, and if you didn't have the tools and principles to test that you wouldn't know. Anyway, this is how I've come to see theology. There are things that work and make sense or they don't. There may be different ways you come to understanding, but your understanding is either true and accurate or not. Just like math or science, theologically, things either pan out or they don't. To me, this is because God is the author and essence of it all. He is the way the truth and the life. There is a way to live in him with him in you, just because we don't always know what that is or looks like doesn't mean the way or truth isn't there to follow, we are just having a hard time following, or trusting what's right.
When Christ died, the veil into the most holy place, God's presence, was torn from top to bottom, symbolizing our ability to access Him through Christ. No other mediator or priest is needed to represent us before God, except our true high priest. The saints, like the angels, may be on our side, but there is no need to pray to/through them.
The dead are asleep till Christ comes back, then the dead in His name will rise first
You got it!
I love this. I was excited because I'm doing a ministry dealing with elderly people and an older catholic lady asked me about it.
Thank you so much for your work!
I've learned a lot about different denominations from you and those talks and it helps me very much.
I'm most in line with Lutheranism and can recommend everyone to have look. 😁
God bless you and your family! 🙏
God doesn't need any of us in order to accomplish anything. The fact that He calls us to participate in His goodness, to help one another, is proof He operates on a level far beyond basic utilitarianism. He operates in love, and love is communal. We are a family, and our existence in Him is enriched by the ability to lean on one another and help one another.
I agree. Jesus' message was to love God and our fellow man, dead or alive.
To answer your question Matt the only verse I can think of for direct communication is, the mount of transfiguration where Jesus is being ministered to by Moses and Elijah one who died and one who was alive. Notice their job was to minister to him. Hope this gives some food for thought! God Bless!
Dr Holmes seems so deep into thought so as not to represent the faith with error. I appreciate that he isn’t just throwing out answers like politician. Great interview.
I don't know why this video showed up on my suggested videos but I'm glad it did. It's so refreshing to see two educated individuals of different beliefs respectfully discussing their differences and similarities. I would love to hear a discussion between you and experts of other faiths like Islam or Hinduism. Maybe you have and I just haven't run across those videos yet but regardless I really loved this video. Thank you for this.
Still waiting for your "500 Asumptions" series. Would make for a great series of conversations.
Matt, would you mind making all of these videos into a playlist, so that this conversation is easy to reference and share?
Oh my gosh, I can't believe you stopped there!! Absolutely at the edge of my seat!
There's a second part :)
@@noahderfuchs Fifth, actually - this is 4 of 5. At least Matt won't make us wait 10 months for it this time, though.
Literally just commenting to help the algorithm! Keep being a great example of healthy, respectful, inter-religious discourse.
You should speak with the guy from Pints with Aquinas
I think, Matt might be a bit confused or clumping these 2 things together unknowingly.
Catholic teachings/dogmas/doctrines and the actions of individual Catholics throughout the ages.
The Catholic Church claims that her official teachings on faith and moral are without errors, all of it. Once a teaching has been definitely taught, it can not and will never change, regardless of popes, bishops, priests, theologians. It could be clarified but it will never contradict what was previously taught on the subject. Ex. The Eucharist is the real substantial presence of Jesus (blood, body, soul, divinity), BVM is the Immaculate Conception, these are truths and will never change. The Teaching Church that God established cannot and will not teach incorrectly when it comes to faith and morality.
The Catholic Church doesn't claim/guarantee the actions of individual, self-professing Catholics are always in line with what the Church teaches and what they profess to believe. Catholics tend to "fall short of the glory of God". When they failed aka sinned, they should repent and go to confession.
Example, Matt brought up indulgence. The Catholic teachings on indulgence are true and correct and well alive today. 2021 is the year of St Joseph, and there are tons of devotion to Jesus through St Joseph that qualified for partial or plenary indulgence. God, being a generous Father, wants to give spiritual gifts to his children for doing good deeds and bolster their faith in Him. What's wrong with that?
Now, have there been fallen sinful Catholic individuals who exploited and abused this teaching for their own gains throughout the ages? Yes. And God will see to that, hope they went to confession. The Church can change its laws regarding the operations of this teaching to prevent abuses, but the teaching itself is correct and true.
A current example, Eucharistic un/worthiness of certain self-professing Catholic lawmakers. They call themselves Catholics, but act utterly contrary to many of Her essential teachings. Her teachings are correct and true, Her grown-up children's actions are not what she taught them. Pray that they repent, go to confession and amend their actions.
Conclusion: Catholic teachings and actions of individual self-professing Catholics are not the same things.
What if the person abusing the teachings is actually the pope and his bishops as is the case with indulgences in the medieval world? Do you just say the pope and those bishops are individuals and therefore not representative of Catholicism?
@@msmutola682 The pope or any bishop is part of the body of Christ like any other Catholic. They aren't different. I hope this answers your question.
@@msmutola682 remember that St. Peter, the first Pope, denied Christ three times.
Just to let you know how much I enjoy your channel. I don't always give you a thumbs up just cause I'm watching on my TV. I wish more people could or would watch you. I think your videos would really help pulling us together as fellow believers. I come out of Mormonism and we have so many groups that we should stand united against contending for the faith once given. ...thumbs up many times over!!
Loving the content keep it up man!
Dear Matt, I think it would be cool if you talked to Austin from Gospel Simplicity about your experiences interviewing people from other Christian traditions. It could be an interesting meta-talk.
We ( Catholic,Protestant, Orthodox) all have a Triune God and a triumphant risen Christ.
Amen!
I’m Catholic and have Oneness Pentecostal, Mormon friends, so while we should give thanks for some level of unity, there’s are a lot of differences to work out! God Bless
Mormons ? You're kidding right ?The Mormon Jesus is Lucifer's brother and their God Elohim is Zeus not Yahweh.
@@stephenslater412 yeah their theology is really out there. Good people, but weird stuff
Love the respectful conversation. Thanks.
Matt - I can’t imagine the angles you have to defend yourself from. Keep going. This is beautiful.
Thank you for saying that. This certainly does come with challenges and costs.
One verse that I was taught that encourages the "prayer" to the saints is, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”? He is God not of the dead, but of the living.’ Matthew 22:32. If we are all one body of Christ and we are all still in communion with one another through Jesus. As he says there's a united bond. Looking back on that verse we as Catholics don't really view praying to the saints any different from asking a friend or anyone in this world to pray for us. With that being said catholics accept that to be a Saint in an ipso facto sort of sense means they ARE in heaven and therefore we can be fairly certain that they can have a "direct line/audience" (for lack of a better term) with God. Of course, this is all based on how our doctrine views sanctification and many other view points catholics hold which may not be accepted by other believers. Hope this helps.
Big fan of your content as a Catholic I think it is very interesting and fruitful and will hopefully lead to unity of all Christians however that may play out. God Bless
Plus they confuse mediator and intercessor one of the books im the new testament asks for intercessions.
I like these talks being Catholic Every Christian is still our Brother For We are One In Christ
Waited a long time for this...
I'm looking forward to this kind of conversation with Fr. Paul at the Antiochian church. I think the Orthodox perspective on these questions will be very illuminating for the audience.
I’m only 10 minutes in and I like this discussion. I don’t subscribed to either theologies but this seems like a real conversation.
It helps that they were friends before they ever filmed these, so they already had that mutual respect despite their differences. Dr. Holmes is one of the humblest people I know (he's a personal friend of mine, and one of the only reasons I made it through college successfully and graduated on time with the rest of my class), and while I've never met Matt, based on these episodes and a lot of the other videos he has done, he comes off to me as very similar in that respect.
nice
Praying WITH the saints
How much trouble could we save just by making an effort to change "to the saints" to "WITH the saints"?!?!?!? lol.
To be fair, in old English “praying” literally means “to ask”. In modern English, it now has the connotation of asking God for something. But in old English, pray to X saint is legitimate as it is akin to “I’m asking this saint to pray for me to the Lord our God”.
@@AmberFaganello yes cause that's what it is.
You can't pray if you're dead
@@nashvillain171 ok, as you wish
Nice to see a cordial conversation!
There's usually a lot of desire to see someone 'dunk' on another, or some sort of 'hey, debate X!', rather than actually taking time to listen.
Keep up the good work!
It definitely helps that they're good friends and were long before this was filmed. But your point still stands.
Dr. Holmes - You totally missed the idea, found throughout Old and New Testaments, that the Saints have indeed interacted and communicated back and forth with real living human beings. The saints visited and walked among us, and brought messages to us, and took messages back to the Lord for us. The most pronounced would be the Angel Gabriel ( a saint ) who served as intermediary between God the Father and Mary. So, we have many precedents of where the Lord has no problem whatsoever with us communicating to Him via his Saints.
Good point. I forgot about that 💡
The Angels do God’s bidding and are His messengers, not ours.
"For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."
It does not seem that there are two bodies of Christ separated by death.
What's the point if resurrection from the dead if they're not dead?
@@Andromedon777 Dead in earthly body, not in spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 covers is a bit off the top of my head.
@@sammorales835 yes, my point.
If it was a sin for Saul to try to consult with someone who was a prophet of God (Samuel) and it was clear him doing so to someone dead was a sin, then what is the difference, if you could explain to me? I haven't heard a counter to this yet. What is the difference?
@@Andromedon777
Question:
What is the difference between talking to a saint and talking to a ghost? In both cases the saint and ghost have passed on; therefore, they both are a spirit. So what difference does it make if one spirit is in heaven and the other is in my house?
Answer:
By forbidding occult contact with the supernatural realm, what the Church is forbidding are the methods and techniques generally used to “summon up” departed human beings or other spirits (e.g., ouija boards, crystal balls, séances, mediums, etc.). It is not forbidding “conversation,” so to speak, between those in this life and those in the next; it is only forbidding attempts to manipulate the supernatural realm to obtain forbidden power or knowledge (CCC 2116).
Take, for example, Saul’s attempt to speak with the dead prophet, Samuel, through the medium of Endor (1 Sam. 28:7-20). It was not Saul’s desire to speak with Samuel that was his sin but the forbidden means by which he accomplished it. It would have been perfectly fine for Saul to have prayed to Samuel, asking Samuel for his intercession, but instead Saul had a medium “conjure” Samuel. The text gives us no reason to think that the person with whom Saul spoke was not Samuel-demonstrating that God may allow such contact to occasionally “work” to bring good out of evil (in this case, allowing Samuel to issue the warning to Saul that he would soon die)-but that does not make the forbidden methods lawful.
Prayer to saints, on the other hand, is entirely different. There is no attempt to conjure up spirits, no attempt to seek forbidden knowledge. All that is done is that the petitioner honors God’s friend and asks the saint for prayer.
@@atgred Ghosts do not exist.
There are saints in heaven, the damned in torment/Sheol, then angels who come and go from heaven to serve God, and demons. That's all.
So you can't talk to ghosts.
You can talk to God in heaven. You can talk to people here. You can even talk to an angel or demon when they visit you. But, you can't talk to those who are not on Earth.
Now you may say "Clearly Saul did to Samuel" but I would say it is far more likely than not that it was a demon deceiving Saul, since for once a man died, then comes judgement. When you're in Heaven, there is no coming back to visit.
So, all of the evidence leans towards not praying to saints in Heaven. I prefer to stick with scripture and not tradition
Wow. A great discussion. 2 very patient guys trying to understand each other.
I am loving these videos! If anything, it is helping me with my decision to join the Catholic Church.
I was reading a 19th century account of an Indian attack, and the narrator said she 'prayed' to the indians to spare her life. As she was a practicing Christian I don't think she meant she worshipped the indians. The meaning of prayer is to ask, to request of.
Did she light candles to them, bow down to their figures/statues/idols, and do other signs of clear worship along with her prayer? Or did she only do a secondary definition of the word pray meaning to beg? The problem a typical Protestant has with this is the typical Catholic response that even though they are doing everything defined as worship and therefore idolatry…it’s not actually worship because we call it a different word. If I call my motorcycle a bicycle, it’s still a motorcycle and I can’t enter the Tour de France with it! 😀
@@jerryyoung6494 There is a definite tie-in to the ancient Jewish practices of lighting a candle for the dead. Also, there were no photos back then, so small statues and paintings were how we remembered our loved ones. As for the similarity to worship, has it not crossed your mind that the reason our love for humans is so similar to how we express love for God is that people are made in God's image and have a share in his divine nature. The reason we don't light candles and pray to our pets is not because they are not divine, but because they are not human.
Are the Jews who kiss their fingers and touch the mezuzah on their door posts worshipping them? Or are they showing reverence for the scroll of scripture within? Are they worshipping the scripture?
@@TakeUpYourCross that’s a very good point and question. In all honesty I’ll have to think on it. My first thought is no, but if I think more on it….perhaps. I definitely do not think it’s pleasing to God based on their own scripture. We have the commands regarding graven images but also the examples of the angels. I can’t name every verse, but several times when one comes to a human the immediate reaction is bowing down and worship. The angels reaction seems immediate and to stop the man telling him only do this to God. In fact when it’s done to Jesus and he doesn’t stop it, we use this as evidence he is God.
@@rhwinner I’m sorry and truly not trying to just be a troll but I think it’s important. “We” have lit candles and done the worship behavior to animals and their images. Look what Moses came off the mountain to, a golden calf. We find it today with calves, cows, goats, etc. when people do this to their ancestors such as with the Japanese religion it’s called ancestor worship. The sin is the worship isn’t going to the true God. When angels came to men in scripture and the men bowed down in a fearful worshipful manner, they were rebuked by the angels. Not because the angels were not made in the image of God like man was, but because they were not God. Many apologists point to Jesus’ acceptance of worship as proof he isn’t just a man, an angel ir other created being but God.
Ireland could learn alot from your dialogue. Greetings from Ireland.
Have a look at a lecture Religious Atrocities in Ireland. Just type in Religious Atrocities in Ireland. Grisham college
I watched a documentary about protestants and catholics living in separate, walled, gated communities in Ireland and my heart just shattered into tiny pieces.
I'm an Anglican. I don't see praying to the saints (including Mary) as being abhorrent in any way. I just see it as being unnecessary, since we can pray directly to God the Father, God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. It's more when Catholics or Orthodox 'slip up' and 'forget' to ask for intercession that it becomes problematic. i.e. instead of asking a saint to intercede, if they ask a saint for protection, help etc. For example this prayer to St. Christopher:
Dear Saint Christopher, protect me today
in all my travels along the road’s way.
Give your warning sign if danger is near
so that I may stop while the path is clear.
Be at my window and direct me through
when the vision blurs From out of the blue.
Carry me safely to my destined place,
like you carried Christ in your close embrace.
Amen.
This is NOT a prayer of intercession. This is praying to St. Christopher as if he has powers equal to at the very least an Angel, if not God.
Here's one that IS intercessory, BUT it's asking for intercession with a bonus person who is not God:
O great St. Peregrine, you have been called "The Mighty" and "The Wonder-Worker" because of the numerous miracles which you have obtained from God for those who have had recourse to you. For so many years you bore in your own flesh this cancerous disease that destroys the very fiber of our being, and who had recourse to the source of all grace when the power of man could do no more. You were favored with the vision of Jesus coming down from His Cross to heal your affliction. Ask of God and Our Lady, the cure of the sick whom we entrust to you. Aided in this way by your powerful intercession, we shall sing to God, now and for all eternity, a song of gratitude for His great goodness and mercy. Amen.
"Ask of" ... good. "intercession" ...good. "and Our Lady" ...not so good.
Don't get me wrong, I love Mary! But she isn't God. Nor is she a goddess. They're supposed to ask Mary to intercede for us with God... not ask saints to intercede for us with Mary (yes, and God, but it should be ONLY God).
So yes, in theory, Catholics only ask for intercession. But in practice, Catholics treat saints as if they were, at best Angels, and at worst gods (small g). And in theory, Catholics only ask Mary for intercession (in her role as 'Queen Mother', mother of Jesus... or Mother of God, Queen of Heaven as they put it), but in practice, Mary is treated as the 4th person of the... well not Trinity anymore I guess. They can wax lyrical and debate for hours about how it's only intercession, but reality draws a different picture.
Also don't get me wrong, I don't hate Catholics. I like Catholics. I'm just calling out theory vs. practice.
Quality stuff; you thank you, sir.
I’ve been reading Fr. Stephen de Young’s “the Religion of the Apostles” and he spends a lot of time talking about the idea of the “Divine Council” that was assumed all over the ancient world and in second temple Judaism specifically. The idea that in Christ, man is called to rule and share in God’s reign has given me a new perspective on the communion of the saints. Christ has overthrown the reign of the principalities and powers of this world, and so there is no mediator between God and man in that sense, but God has deemed it good that man, in Christ, should share in his reign. I think the idea is that man, full of the glory of Christ, is called to reign in the place of the spiritual powers that filled the Divine Council before. This is an alien concept to our modern ears, but it’s all throughout the scriptures. All that said, I think asking for the intercession of the Saints who now reign with Christ does not detract from the glory of God, but rather magnifies his goodness for raising up man in Christ to reign with him.
well the bible does say we are gods.
@@jayp.3898 meaning judges and keepers of the law of the land.
@Chris Sweet
Chris,
Very well said.