How Islam Began, Fred Donner: UnCommon Core Lecture
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ส.ค. 2011
- In recent decades there has been much scholarly debate over Islam's origins. The traditional Muslim view has increasingly been found inadequate, but critical scholarship has not been able to reach a consensus on how Islam arose. The present talk surveys the issues at stake and a number of interpretations that have been recently proposed to understand just what happened at the origins of Islam 14 centuries ago.
Presentation by Fred Donner.
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Fred Donner and scholars like him are the real heroes of modern thinking about religion. Calm and thoughtful scholarship is what we need to listen to and learn from. The anger and intolerance in the comments here are tiresome to read and toxic: nothing is as bad and nothing is as good as what is claimed here.
Noah Kennedy I think his style is so boring! I have feeling that he was not sure to study this field.
@Noah Kennedy - Comments like this are conclusive proof that you haven't actually spent any time reading the Quran or hadiths. Or at least you had not when you wrote this comment; TH-cam tells me that I am writing 3 years after your comment. Anybody that has read the Islamic scripture, any significant part of it, for it is not necessary to have read all of it; knows that Islam is WORSE that what the people describe in the thread comments. It is truly beyond the imagination of anybody who grew up in the West, unless they have studied it.
Darrius Cole - I doubt you know what you are talking about since no civilization can spread and become dominant as Islam did for so many centuries if its core values were corrupt in the first place. The other commentators in this thread show this level of understanding and nuance. That you don't demonstrates you and your jaundiced views don't belong here.
Unfortunately, I DO know what I am talking about. The values ascribed by the Quran are bad beyond the imagination of the average person born and raised in the US or Europe. If you don't think so then you either 1) Are a muslim yourself or 2) You have not read it. Most muslim people are better than what is allowed in Quran.
Also, the fact that Islam spread does not mean that its underlying virtues are good. Governments with corrupt values become dominant all the time.
And why his views do not belong here? And what the values are, if I can ask that lead to the genocide of Armenians? Islam was dominant because of the military conquests not because of the values it represents.
Having lived in different countries with different beliefs, I can say one thing very clear and loud;very few people are practising their belief. The most of us worship money and power. Regardless of beliefs, we have this phenomenon in common. No difference, quintessential all the time.
So well said.True most time and places.
cant agree more
Wisepersonsay we are not discussing people but a religion.
@@byronwright1612 he is certainly not the same as our God. Mainly (I think) because the socalled angel Gabriel who gave the messages to Mohammad, was not an angel of God and his messages were more diabolical. than anything else. Even M. thought the angel was a demon , in the beginning.
What did Jesus say? 🤔 No one can serve two masters... it's either God is your master or money is your master". The Bible speaks truth once again...................................................
Definition of believers is given in 3rd chapter, beginning of Surah Al Imran. It says believer is one who believes in one God, all Angels, all holy books, all Prophets of Allah, Judgement day,
We owe such gratitude to academics, and academic historians in particular, for their consistent search for truth.
I am a Muslim, and unfortunately many Muslims are afraid of Western scholarship & academia when it comes to the Qur’an or Islam (so too are many Christians & Jews when it comes to their religion), because they think it will invalidate their faith or cause them doubts. But I have to say that I actually find it INVIGORATING and REFRESHING to hear new, open-minded and diverse perspectives and insights that academics have to share. I often find gems that INCREASE my faith when I read their works. You don’t have to accept all of it, but that’s the point-have an open mind and be willing to listen to new perspectives, and be a critical thinker who thinks for themselves. As the Qur’an itself encourages:
*”Those who listen to what is said, and follow the BEST of it. It is **_those_** whom God has truly guided. Those are the ones who possess real intellect.”* _(Qur’an __39:18__)_
Muslims are not afraid of Western Scholarship and academia after all it has had its own scholarships for hundreds of years analysing Islam as well.
What is disconcerting is when bias and prejudice is dressed up as scholarship and academia and sold to unsuspecting poorly educated Muslim populations.
To give you an example : Dr Daniel Brubaker and his book (20 Corrections in the Quran(?)). Although the book itself was not a work of scholarship it was presented as an extension (or extract) of his scholarly thesis. It is clear from the book that Dr Brubaker had already made up his mind about the preservation of the Quran before even listing one so-called "correction".
As i said Muslims are not afraid... and in fact the Quran ITSELF challenges everyone - including scholars and academics - to critically analyse the Quran. If Allah himself is not afraid of academia and scholars why should Muslims be?
Its not really about accepting or not accepting what western academics say. It is about validating their accuracy and truthfulness and eliminating prejudice and bias from their work.
The truth/haqq is from Allah and hence ANY haqq is acceptable to Muslims even if expounded by western academics and scholars. However lies and innuendos presented as truth are strongly rejected.
@@sidprice6214 you said it beautifully
@@afiqmohd1150 Thanks. Its mostly common sense which people don't seem to want to apply.
How does it increase your faith to find out that the whole religion was basically shaped as a political tool?
@@heliosperegrin Methodological naturalism. Do yourself a favor & look up those two words 👍🏼 Take care.
As a Muslim, I appreciate every second of this video. I didn't know even know 10% of this information about my OWN RELIGION. Thank you for this. Truly.
i like it also because it fits more with the concept of mohammad pbuh. i mean the way he treated people
JAMES IRVINE Exactly!!!
It's rubbish.
You should be ashamed of yourself
Don't take information from these dishonest academics. Go to credible sources. They can tell you lot better. We have non Muslim and Muslim testimonials with chain of narrations that no other civilization can boast of. Yet they paint Muslims as dishonest while taking all other historical evidence without enough testimonials.
Biased and racists.
Thanks for the calm and thoughtful analysis. I have to emphasize that your arabic pronunciation is impeccable. Very impressive!
I personally learnt a lot about the history of my own religion.
This is more shocking th-cam.com/video/LygfZXHGk54/w-d-xo.html
@Anas Siddiqui So because the Bible is Wrong, do we need to believe in the Quran?... Looks like both are wrong.
@simp hunter Because the Bible has more consistency historically. The Bible was created during a big period of time, when the Quran just in 20 years
@simp hunter Are The stories in the Quran about the prophets correct or not?, because many of them contradict the stories in the Bible.
@simp hunter I think the Bible is more in line with history because it has been written in a big period of time. The Bible shows what the people of different times think about God(s),. In the other side, Quran reinterprets all those histories. Sometimes the Quran took stories and did not know exactly what they mean. Example the word Injil or Messiah. One additional contradiction that I found in the Quran is when they refers to God in first person plural, WE.
Learned a lot from watching this. It is truly amazing how little we know about the past. As a teacher, I try to emphasize the use of primary sources, yet we have so little of them for such big topics like origins of religion.
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@@inquisitivemind007 Yep! Muhammad never went to Jerusalem, except in his dreams riding a flying donkey(!). When Islam was young and Muhammad thought that he'd be able to convert the Jews, he had his first disciples (muslims) to pray towards Jerusalem. Of course, the Jews were not very convinced. What did Muhammad do then? He expelled and beheaded all Jews of his hometown, and had the gibla changed from Jerusalem to Medina.
@@attiylanen lies lies lies,it was not a dream but a real journey , see what you are doing is picking and leaving narrative from the hadith which suits your belief , horse was running not flying , Islam wasn't young it always was since Adam
qibla was first put towards jerusalem to remove strong racial felling from the Arab Muslims not impress because it was there since Mecca period when there were no Jews , muslim punished only those Jewish tribes who broked there treaty others were allowed to live , qibla was changed to Mecca not medina
@@saimtanweer5720 wrote: "horse was running not flying" If not flying, then answer me this: why did the 'horse' have wings?
If it was not flying, how could Muhammad make the journey from Mecca to Jerusalem in one single night?
If it wasn't a dream, but a real journey, how is it possible to make the trip from Mecca to Jerusalem in a single night on a horseback? Plus, From Jerusalem Muhammad also flew to heaven. How ridiculous can one story be?
But you are correct in this one. I made a mistake: Muhammad did change the qibla from Jerusalem to Mecca, not to Medina. That was my bad. See, I'm able to admit when I make a mistake or when I'm wrong. I've never seen any of your people admit when you're wrong.
Everybody is free to read the whole story about the so-called break of treaty and how it was justified to have Muhammad behead 900 chained POWs in a single afternoon. Just read the Life of Muhammad by ibn Ishaq. It's all there. Don't take my word for it, neither take the word of any muslim. I urge everybody to just read it.
@@attiylanen wings were there 2 move really fast , and it wasn't a horse but a creature named buraq and it was too fast that's why it went to jerusalem to Medina in single night and from jerusalem to heaven was done with Gabriel not buraq correct if I'm wrong , so you can't say God can't do it for his Prophet
Firstly you made another mistake , the judgement for Banu quraiza was given by Saad bin muad who made the treaty between muslim and Jews of Banu quraiza , if prophet would have did it he would have just expelled them from Medina for there treason And it was done according to DEUTERONOMY ch 13 rules
, It wasn't so called break of treaty , it could have caused great loss to muslim , and saad died just few days after this judgement because he was wounded and Jews themselves choosed saad to give punishment for them And Ibn ishaq said 800 not 900 ,don't add extra , secondly his report is doubted by Muslim historian due to several reasons first ibn ishaq is not completely authentic and has some wrong narration , secondly the quran said about that punishment " some you executed and some you took captives " in ch 33 , so it is most authentic , and some other studies show that this large amount of men couldn't have belonged to single tribe and Medina a small city had no place for burial of these many mens and it happened just few hours after battle of trench , so most generally they would have been buried in the trench but report says they were buried in market place which doesn't looks correct because muslim were exausted so they wouldn't have took the pain to dig another grave yard
I personally think this man was somewhat fair with his opinion of how Islam started. He tried to stay as respectable as possible being a non-Muslim. NO, HE WONT TELL IT LIKE A MUSLIM WOULD TELL IT BECAUSE A MUSLIM WOULD TELL THE STORY WITH A PASSION OF BELIEF IN ISLAM!
I’ve never seen anyone do it better.
try Cira International, have fun . . . ..
@@sylvia7000 cira is just a bunch of liars who twists things to suit tbeir agenda! They've been already exposed by their own people many times!
Very interesting. Thanks a lot Mister Donner!
Very interesting lecture.
An Absolutely wonderful lecture !
Thank you for this very informative lecture! I think it is important that we know what we're talking about :) - and it's a great way to discover the lies which are also being passed on in the media and so on, which could easily be used for propaganda etc. Thanks again.
Green 💚 colour hair..
Islam is formed with Forces, Swords ⚔️, Bullets, Killings, means all are Converted from other religions.
No self ideology,,No laws,, Only Men's are rulling,, Womens are tortured,, Womens are machines for producing 20,30, 50 childrens.. 4/5/6 wives...Talak TALAK Talak 3 words to destroy Women's,,,
Interested in 72 HOORS with very big size Breast....Ladies have no place in society.
Hum converted SUWARS Hai.
Hum KALAMA Padhate hai...
Huma-me JAJABA hai...
Hum TALAK de sakate hai...
Hum HALALA bhee karate hai(enjoyment)...
72 HOORS with big boobs for us...
We can produce 20/30/50 kids , hamara Penis عضو تناسل Powerful Hai(4/6 wives)...
Kya huwa, hamare bachche بچے Pancharwala Beggers Hotel worker Butcher Riksha puller hai to,, JIHADI bhee hai, inshallah....
Great video
Great scholar...clam and clear understanding on the topic
Benjamin Park he is a professor of Islam and near eastern studies. He is considered a orientalist scholar. I have his book that I used in seminary called narratives of Islamic origins. His profile in it calls him a scholar 🤔
This is more shocking th-cam.com/video/LygfZXHGk54/w-d-xo.html
Yes, a new look to the beginning is needed
Abdullah Al-Selwi
I am a non-practising New York Jew married to a devout Episcopalian Irish man.
We just visited the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus. What a magnificent building!
What I’ve found remarkable is that the Shrine of Nabi Yahya bin Zakarya (St. John the Baptist), has been given a special place inside the Sanctuary of the mosque. John, my husband, not the Prophet, has been very proud ever since that he got the chance to visit the shrine dedicated to the eponymous of his namesake, in a Muslim country of all places, far away from his parents’ native Ireland.
@@miriamsackler5002 yahya a.s ,moses a.s jesus a.s ,mohammed s.a.w etc are all prophets and are being respected equally
why? It is all made up bullshit anyway
A real great lecture!
Great lecture. Thank you 🙏
Sick explanation
His Arabic pronunciation is very good!
At what minute did he speak Arabic?
@@naser766 some words like Amir ul momineen, hijra, and one ayat probably.
Outstanding analysis!!
This is more shocking th-cam.com/video/LygfZXHGk54/w-d-xo.html
Nice to hear a well structured lecture
I like Islam whatever haters say...
lol kill the infidels take what your right hand has. Hate Jews, women have half the intelligence of men, throw gays of tall buildings, kill someone if they leave Islam, stone a woman to death for adultery, child marriage, placing Christians/Jews 2nd class citizens. You’re right what is there not to love.
Historically differs from secular and other Abrahamic sources e.g. claiming Abraham was Muslim and he built the kabba etc etc
Bismillah Hir rahman nir raheem
Always begin your day with Fajr prayer and Ayat AL KURSI.
READ QURAN EVERYDAY AND NEVER IGNORE YOUR FIVE DAILY PRAYERS
Thank you
Very informative and interesting. Thank you for sharing.
Seems to be truthful and honest, non-biased presentation.
@Al Mudarabah I'm afraid you're incorrect. Your judgement of levels in Islam is A BIG part of modern Islam interpretation. The professor is simply analyzing the Qur'an and is not wrong or said to have missed anything. He also conceded there's no historical evidence from the time of Muhammad. Your submission based on the Qur'an text is already modern Islam.
@@SoftSpeakin6 You're wrong.
@@stephenmurphy1003 and you're a Muslim 😋
Try listening to good scholarly sources such as Dan Gibson’s Sacred City, The Jay Show, Dr. Bill Warner-
@@SoftSpeakin6 damn ok lmao
From the evidenciary texts state the references used within the Koran are quite directly drawn from Judaic Talmud or verbal recitation of the rabbinical traditions.
Truw
No it isn't far from truth. Stop claiming everything Islamic and proof it with evidence which you can't!!!
its almost the complete opposite, the talmud was fully organized in the 11-1300's and jews in arabia adopted many islamic concepts especially the greatest jewish scholar/rabbi maimonides, the Quran is very unique and still held as the highest form of the arabic language, you can hear the very clear distinction from the Quran rhyming and following a clear pattern while the rabbical verbal recitations are just teachings recited
God bless your heart.
Thanks very much from SOAS London! ;)
This was a good lecture. I'll be looking for more by Fred Donner.
Green 💚 colour hair..
Islam is formed with Forces, Swords ⚔️, Bullets, Killings, means all are Converted from other religions.
No self ideology,,No laws,, Only Men's are rulling,, Womens are tortured,, Womens are machines for producing 20,30, 50 childrens.. 4/5/6 wives...Talak TALAK Talak 3 words to destroy Women's,,,
Interested in 72 HOORS with very big size Breast....Ladies have no place in society.
Hum converted SUWARS Hai.
Hum KALAMA Padhate hai...
Huma-me JAJABA hai...
Hum TALAK de sakate hai...
Hum HALALA bhee karate hai(enjoyment)...
72 HOORS with big boobs for us...
We can produce 20/30/50 kids , hamara Penis عضو تناسل Powerful Hai(4/6 wives)...
Kya huwa, hamare bachche بچے Pancharwala Beggers Hotel worker Butcher Riksha puller hai to,, JIHADI bhee hai, inshallah....
It was Ernest Renan who said the Islam was born in the full light of history.
the islam give full light of the History :)
May be it was. But considering the large number of enemies the Prophet, considering the inter-Muslim quarrels than began immediately after his death, the probability of history catching the truth was very small.
the stupidest statement ever made by a westerner ,sure he was present at the birth he caught the yawling infant as it burst out of aminas vagina ,also was splashed with all the blood urine amniotic fluid feaces so renan should know,he just forgot to take a selfie
@@syedali7205 the fitna between the ummayads and the hashemites with the ansar struggle put in, makes early islam a historical nightmare.
anyone here have heard of "christian prince" ??.. seek it..
Excellent presentation.
One weakness is the omission to consider the many fractions, theological debates and disagreement within the christians, and probably jews as well, at the time. E.g. monophytism as pointed out by Prof. Freedman in Yale, also available here.
You can tell reading most of the comments here that they didn't even bother watching the video.
Yeah because they’re not here in order to learn they’re here to fight.
I am confident as a Christian for being competent enough to follow this discussion through comparison and contrast and the depth of the subject required to listen here, as well other discussions and debates I am following.
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12:28 The volume spikes, I had a feeling there was a problem with his mic...Watch out iof wearing headphones or watching late with speakers...
Richard Wendling
thank you
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What are your sources?
EMS 76 after 4 minutes I concluded it’s crap talk not academic lecture.
@@RobespierreThePoof I looked up his name in my liebarry and all's I could find is about some party where it snowed and people ate each other.
Here are the sources th-cam.com/channels/I42rxSfPRIyhgJQLcb3FGw.html
1:52 there is an early historical recorded account from the ibadhi sect, who branched out of the mainstream first and it was by the prophet's companions. This was before 50yrs unlike the sources quoted relying on sunni traditions which came later
Very informative. It answered a question I had for a while.
May I know which question?
@@jenniraisovna5698 How mo ha mad married the six yo aisha
@@esam3477 Marry gave birth to jesus when she was 12... your God 😂
@@tiikos8821 you are just a liar like your prophet and your al lah...
Nowhere is her age mentioned in the bible...
Compare with your aisha the six yo who married your 54 prophet and he put her on his legs.
@@esam3477 Search about it and find the truth. WE DON'T LIE 🙄
We don't worship a god who was a baby....
very poor audio. I have the volume on full and can hardly hear
your device is the problem
My Samsung Galaxy 10s plus is very good. I have the volume set at 3/4.
You have a bad device Bro
OMER SERIES is made in which all battles with persian and roman empires are covered .quality is no less than hollywood .consists of 30 episodes
One can only know the truth about any religion from real world history, not from the perspective of religious lectures.
beautiful
Very Good Lecture in Very Simple Way Described. Sweet and To the Point. Thanks...
Thank you very much for this video!
One of the most sensible explanations of the origins of Islam,without the bombastic preachings of Islamic scholars who believe they are right and everyone else are infidels and are wrong.
Well, infidels are wrong!
What a great speaker with persuasive historical argumentations! I really enjoyed it. Thanks.
thanks for your perspective.Very helpful.
History has always had problems with sources as the mediums are not gold.
This is more shocking th-cam.com/video/LygfZXHGk54/w-d-xo.html
Very few appreciate a lecture from a person who took the learning and took the trouble to do his best . It is quite clear that more intolerance exists than tolerance and understanding and good- will towards faiths other than one’s own .
Islam is pure intolerance
Only ten years later since this lecture, we do have rock inscription from the times of prophet's companions, and Fred Donner's own student Prof. Sean Anthony discovered a biography of the Prophet written by his nephew, Urwa ibn Zubair. We are optimistic finding more!
can you send me the sources of the rock inscriptions and the found Biography? I seem to misplace this news on the web
that's bs
Didn't find about any such discovery online. Your sources?
All of you still asking source? I've found it, it's come from their hole when they do bowing between their prayers.
@@sarahprincess1045 The medinan museum in arabic displays such findings, as it is arabic, you will hardly find english news on it
I just finished one of his books, then search youtube to know about him more.
He is undoubtedly a very good scholar and writer.
As a Muslim, I appreciate his research. Thanks a lot for your hard work.
I bilive Islam and the Qur'an are certainly not just for Muslims it is the latest revolution from God has sent for all believers and every human beings.
There have been other religions after Islam so to say Islam is the latest revelation from God is a false narrative
@@uniformityofnature1488 Yes, but it is possible to prove that they are all man-made. Islam acknowledges previous revolutions and says that this is the last revolution for everyone . Islam was sent by God and it is the only holey book that perfectly preserved, it has chain of narration, there is no possibility of being wrong here.
No other religion can claim and proved that those r not corrupted by time.
@@psychopeoples4384 Yes according to the standard Islamic narrative that is the case. How do you know it is divine is it because it says so? You know Muslims are the only one that talk about their holy text being persevered and somehow conclude it is the best? For starters Christians and Jews don’t believe their holy books were sent by “God” they acknowledge they are historical sources of events following a particular bloodline of people you could say. The only thing Christians believe that was sent by “God” is Jesus and Jews are yet to receive their gift from “God”. So with the whole book preservation “argument” Muslims are punching the air unfortunately. It doesn’t make sense to me, in no other Jewish or Christian scripture was there ever promise of a whole document such as a Quran, was there ever such a promise? Just because a book is preserved doesn’t mean content is coherent with history, it just means it’s unchanged.
I can argue that religion institutions are man made and a product of shifting cultural paradigms and external influences. can’t faith in “God” can be attained through individual reflection and action? I’ve read the Quran and the Bible. Abraham rationally(logically) comes to the conclusion there must be only one source “God”. Does he then make a religion out of it or did that occur over time as a result of human clan mentality? Same with Jesus he literally only comes to educate and warn people of the “religious institutions” he doesn’t introduce a new religion that all happened after his death. Another example is Hinduism a term used by Persians to describe people living beyond the Indus. The British too adopted this term these are all human constructs because people are tribal. Outside “religion” we have nazis, feminists, conservatives, liberals least goes on why is religion and expectation? Shouldn’t we me talking about what values we ought to hold regardless because that is what God represents at the end of the day “values” you cannot personify something that is almighty and not human it’s condemning but it’s the best we can do I get. Why are we talking about social category categorisation? Philosophers and thinkers have been logically coming to the conclusion about morality and science and one God independent of religion. Abraham, Jesus did philosophy just as Socrates and Zarathustra did during different times and at different nations. Islam(Sunni) is only special in the sense it is cultural Arab with Persian influence and maybe of others that came before it. It was specifically narrated to a geopolitical area of the world which had no idea of a monotheistic “God”.
The bestowal from on high of this divine writ issues, beyond any doubt, from the Sustainer of all the worlds:
and yet, they [who are bent on denying the truth] assert, “[Muhammad] has invented it!” Nay, but it is the truth from thy Sustainer, enabling thee to warn [this] people to whom no warner has come before thee, so that they might follow the right path.
36:2-3
“ to warn this people to warn people to whom no Warner’s have come before thee, so they might follow the right path”
The Quran was specifically revealed in Arabic yes? In a particular nations of the world that had yet been susceptive to the idea of monotheism. The were not Arabs yes? Nor were the Hebrews, nor were the Romans/Byzantines all these groups had already been exposed to monotheistism.
I believe Muhammad wasn’t the first prophet to be sent The Arabian Peninsula had prophets as well like prophet Salih
Lo! We sent unto them two [apostles], and. they gave the lie to both; and so We strengthened [the two] with a third; and thereupon they said: “Behold, we have been sent unto you [by God]!”
@@uniformityofnature1488 tldr
@@psychopeoples4384 🤷♂️not my problem
comes as friend turns out your master
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AI HAVE NOTICED WHEN THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO HERE THE SUBJECT, THEY TURN THE VOLUME DOWN WHERE YOU CAN'T HERE IT ON A SMART PHONE, I WISH PHONES HAD AMPLIFIERS, I HAVE MY PHONE IN A BIG CERAMIC BOWL, AND IT HELPS SOME.
Hear
There is no conspiracy. It is just how it happened to be, and it was later adjusted so there is nothing there but happenstance.
... just put some headphones on
You can turn up your volume or wear earphones lmao
I ageee with a lot of what he says. I was raised Christian and became a Muslim. I dont think they are different religions but the same. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to help bring us back to God's original message that he gave to everyone (so originally Jews and Christians) but their messages changed over time. Thats why i dont like to say "revert"or "convert" since its more like my faith has always been there, but ive come to a better understanding of God's original message. Therefore, this man's lecture with believers and how historical evidence of churches that were split with Muslims and Christians make so much sense
Before converting to islam, you should finish your education. Now your opinion is that of a moron.
@@George-iv1hi yeah, this is the way you get people to buy what you selling.
I converted to islam too.
Y friend became a reborn Christian, and introduced to me the concept of God.
I started to learn Christianity… and then stumbled upon Islam, and the lord of the universe explained to me Christianity better than what current Christianity is. I believe Christian’s are really Muslims, but they don’t want to believe it, but I do, because the lord of the universe taught us this, Jesus was a Muslim too Alhumdulilah
They're actually totally opposed.
There are basically 2 religious systems out there, one based on salvation through faith (Bible Christianity alone) and the other one, where Islam is included with all of the other relions out there, based on salvation through own works, deeds.
No true student of the Bible can ever become a muslim or anything else for that matter since they all lack "The way, The truth and The life".
@@MrCls88 this is a biased opinion, no offense :) every religion will teach "this is the true religion" and devote followers will be convinced their belief is truth. Our job is to research not just what the religion teaches (e.g. does it make sense, is it logical) but the evidence and strength of that religion being true. Christianity has such a beautiful message of love, hope, salvation but when it comes to evidence of reliability, it unfortunately is very weak. Nobody knows who wrote the 4 gospels for example. They were called Matthew mark luke and john in the 2nd century but were written unanimously. Biblical scholars believe the apostle Paul only wrote half the books claimed to be written by him. Biblical scholars also believe peter couldn't have written 1 and 2nd peter because it was written in highly skilled Greek and peter was an illiterate fisherman who spoke Aramaic. Revelation was written by a man named John but not THE John, not one of Jesus's disciples. Ending of mark isn't original, story of the prostitute in John was a 10th century addition....the Christmas stories contradict each other because there is a 10 year gab between King Herod and Quirinius. Shall I continue?
In summary, I sincerely love Christianity. I really enjoy learning about the theology of Christianity (protestant). I listen to Biblical scholars basically every day. But the strength of evidence for Christianity really is weak. At the end of the day, it's not about which religion has the best promises and message. Its about which religion has the strongest evidence of being true. And from several years of research and learning, my conclusion is Islam has the strongest evidence of being true, despite my deep love for Christianity
As a Muslim, I feel every religions are man made politics of old. No god wants people to worship them as slaves, only Monarchs of the past wanted people to fear the unknown and obey rules which is not a bad thing politically. God the supreme one is loving and loves us all. Only the supreme one planned everything and will take us all back one day from every living to non living things.
Fred Donner, Sir you really enlighten. Thank you.
I met Fred Donner 13 years ago..I assure you that he is a great scholar..he speaks and reads Classical Arabic like no Arabist I have met...he knows his stuff.
@L B bullshit
His Arabic is so flawless
I like to know the truth .. but did you all realise he keep on mentioning beutiful picture painted about Muhammad and keep us wondering .. this is what we call careful structured .. to find what are the bad thing about Muhammad (pbuh).. as a scholar he should give example of both cases bad picture and good picture so people can make analysis ..
He said that prophet Mohammad has the Quran in a noise but actually the Quran was revealed to him in many ways including the Angel coming to him
If you read between the lines, and think carefully about the ends of the idea he is presenting, you would not be very happy about what he presents about Islam, is but my humble opinion.
(cont..)
and so would have been familiar with all three faiths through their oral traditions and recitation.
Our capacity to retain and recite at great length has atrophied hugely since we have become dependent on writing. We should not assume those before us operated in the same way. They didn't.
Beautiful talk and very interesting take on the subject.
Sound needs to be at least doubled.
You right Fred, how there be a trinity when there is only One God
Because HE is 3 persons and He can’t lie and has shown Himself to mankind
3 men appeared to Abraham!
All 3 are YHVH.
So either believe God & Abraham
Or call God a liar!
P Harrison the concept of the trinity came 100 years after Jesus the prophet of God. And who came up with it? Unknown people..and one Jewish guy who lied about everything (Paul).
@@P.H.888 Trinity is an invented concept. See Codex Sinaiticus, an old manuscript. You'll see there is no Comma Johanneum. quransmessage.com/articles/trinity%20FM3.htm
@@love1nada1 how can a g0d send down a book and not protect it from corruption? basically 40 different variants of the koran, not qiraats
@@feduntu how is there 40 different variants? This is the first I’m hearing of this.
1. Because people weren't operating in a literary culture, but one of oral tradition and recitation.
2. The Hadiths are alleged sayings which Muslims may choose to take or leave (unlike the Qur'an). Many prefer to leave many of them and simply say they don't agree with them.
A good analysis and presentation.
I suppose this guy's second language is Arabic as his pronunciation of Arabic words is perfect which is very rare among westerners. Yes I am an Arabic person.
He study Arabic at the Middle East Centre for Arab Studies (MECAS) in the village of Shimlan, Lebanon.
i think second language is a bit of a stretch, but he's surely studied it. i speak urdu and am muslim, and I've been told i have really good pronunciation, but i can only very vaguely understand it.
@@kehana2908depends who told you you had really good pronunciation.
Thank you. I'm glad to get educated in this accessible way. to learn how the origins of islam were very different from what islam became later and is now.
Thanks for translation to Arabic language
Topic begins around 10:30
15:30 = Why we're watching this video.
rubbersole Thank you! ‘Preciate ya!
This is more shocking th-cam.com/video/LygfZXHGk54/w-d-xo.html
Quite a scholarly discussion, interesting.
I liked it. Thank you, Fred.
Were there revelation transcripts from the beginning of Islam? Or were they vocally transmitted only?
While prophet was alive reveleations were being written down. After his death quran was brought together as a book by the first governer ebu Bekir.. Reveleations he got from God were told him orally by holy spirit Gabriel.
Bu iste bir is var how do you know? These first transcripts are lost are they not?
@@helenal3956 the oldest quran we have today was supposed to be written 50, 70 years after prophets death. But historical fact is verses written on Woods, leathers etc become A book by ebu Bekir Just after prophets death.. Arabic doesnt have vowels.. 3rd governer uttman added vowels to quran so that the words cant be mixed to another one. 3 copies were prepared. More copies delivered to other countries. Before writing down quran People Who memorised it came together and wrote it during ebu Bekir time. Some say..memorizing.. No mistakes?? 40 men Who memorized came together and wrote down.
@@helenal3956 th-cam.com/video/NzCNh893FCk/w-d-xo.html
www.oldest.org/religion/qurans/
Bu iste bir is var thank you
A circuitous if well intentioned effort at a primer of the early days of Islam. Much more compelling and rigorous is the work of Jonathan Brown at Georgetown, who sharpens and challenges the increasingly obsolete methodology of looking at Islam and its history. Viewers would do well too springboard out of this video to Brown's work.
Respect
Indeed. Thanks for your enlightened comment.
does anyone know what the moon symbol represents in islam? ive had so many answers but nobdy seems to know for sure....
Sorry the late Answer!
The moon doesn’t hold any significant weight in Islam nor it represents anything.
We use the moon to count the days of Islamic Calendar, which starts from the day our Prophet SAW went on journey to Madinah and we call the Calendar Hijrah/Journey.
Don’t hesitate to ask if you have more questions.
Thanks
Moon was used by the Seljuks as a symbol of their empire's flag.
Islam is the best
Thanks for sharing this lecture.
I think Fred Donner he interpreted the word “believers” his own way, but I am wondering way to use an implicit interpretation While the definition of believers is stated clearly in the Quran itself in Chapter 2 verse 177 and 285.
Furthermore, there is a clear mix in understanding between the religious obligations to the muslims and the civil rights within the Society where it includes different believes.
Quranic definitions ? Professor talks about the times historic documents were scarse.. Do not use quran to proof quran. Observe independent sources and archaeology as professor does.
@Al Mudarabah I have no idea where the professor took the word Moameneen from. May be from sources beyond the quran?
Andre Voyt
The professor used many verses in Quran to define the word of believers or Moamneen... hence I replied accordingly... my comment was not a try to prove or disprove Quran ...
@Al Mudarabah If he used the quran as the only source he would be wrong.
You are influenced by hadeeth ( narrations that written 200 later). This is how most sunnies and shias came to fome : books like Bukhary and Al-kaffy.
The community of believers was the description of early followers of Mohammed and they were inclusive to Christianity and jewdaism, which is in sink with Quran but not Hadeeth.
Not clear or descriptive enough, and also some very essential issues are skipped.
Well, if one wants to polish the tarnished shield of Islam, he has to be very vague and leave out links to any important sources. Taqiya level critical here. Makes me sick that there are people this dishonest in the world.
The study of history and archaeology is fascinating and revealing. But what is discovered can contradict what we believe is true and thus conflicts arise. Same with the discovery of anything new that conflicts with what we thought was true or helpful. Like germ theory overcoming earlier beliefs. It collapses an entire belief system and stains all those who taught the previous theories which of course would cause them to violently resist those new ideas. They would call the new ideas controversial, would fight them, ridicule them but then students who had nothing at stake in the old ideas, and no mortgage to pay, and no reputation to defend, would accept the new ideas as self-evident and commonsensical.
But the sources he is using for this are over 200 hundred years old? Are they reliable?
No, he's working with the scant primary sources from the 7th century.
If you read all the comments here, its as if none of them bothered to watch the video. If not that, then their basically saying they know better than a historian with a PhD who is the director of the center for middle eastern studies at chicago university.
It only takes perseverance to get a PhD. There are a lot of quacks with doctorates. And yes I am sure there are folks on these threads with a better understanding of Islamic history than this fool.
The worst part is he has spent years recovering, translating and documenting 7th century Arabic papyrus' which literally no other living person knows of.
he is putting forward a thesis based on interpretations of early evidence.
That's what historians do, you know.
Or how did you think all that knowledge in history books came about if not through the same process.
Well, his thesis about "same God" and "only one set of equal believers" is dismantled by his very source.
Qur'an Sura 9:29 and 98:6 should be enough, but there is much, much more.
corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=98&verse=6
@@ambassadorkees there are too many nonsense in this video.
@Azazel Nicholas fyi, what is left from jews in north Africa when they are praying in arabic they pray to Allah (i am speaking about small, routine prayers like may Allah help you or may Allah be with u etc.)
Also, in Egypt where 10% of the population is Christian, Christians also use the same prayers : may Allah help you and may Allah cure u etc.
I am Muslim, i dont agree with all this professor said, and i didnt like the last 2 min or so when he started speaking about what muslims should or shouldnt do ... but it was quite an interesting lecture and it actually opened my mind toward new interpretation of our own tradition.
Salam
@@sohaibelazzouzi6553 Allah is a Proper noun, the specific name of your God Allah, allah with the small a is a common arabic noun meaning god.. this is what egyptian Christians you say are referring to. early muslims necause they are arabic just used the term allah and made it the specific name for their(your) god. if they(Christians) used another language (not arabic) it would be clear they are praying to God and not Allah. this is basic.
This is more shocking th-cam.com/video/LygfZXHGk54/w-d-xo.html
That's wouoldn't have been a very wise policy especially with urban areas.
Also, there are sources about battles won and the like and Prof.Donner's book has lists of tribes involved in those battles.
I made a short video to simplify basic principles of Islam as an Arab Muslim
I love the comment section for showing us how little understanding they have, but also how much the know🤦♂️
If what you say is true, why then do you not marry the comment section...?
lol I have Muslim friends and yes they are clueless
2 Timothy 3:7
This is more shocking th-cam.com/video/LygfZXHGk54/w-d-xo.html
Psalm 19:7
Excellent program
Please increase volume of speech. Can't hear properly.
Excellent! One question: Donner mentions archaeological evidence of old churches featuring both an apse toward the East used for Christian worship, and a prayer niche in the South wall for Muslims to prayer toward their holy city. I wonder if Donner is familiar with Dan Gibson research that seems to show that the early believers did not pray to Mecca but with high degree of likelihood toward Petra. Gibson even proposes that Muhammad and the early believers started in Petra, not Mecca. I wonder what Donner thinks about Gibson’s research?
They are now finding that what is considered Mecca today is probably not the true site of Mecca
The quran and the hadiths says that he started at mecca, also it was 14 hundred years ago when they built these mosques if so as you say that there are some mosques werent pointing to Jerusalem then it would be because they didnt have that good geographicalism or anything like that, And some mosques acually point to Jerusalem but they also cross Petra and thats somehow irrelavent, another thing is acually the trading problem that people always point out, There are quit alot of proofs that exists in other places such as old Emirates cities or other cities that exists even further down to yemen or oman, But as we say that mecca was a holy place that guides tgousand sof people there which means it was a larg trading centre, also not to forget that his grave, mosque and his house were at mecca or madina also there is also nearly all the places that were mintioned about muhammad and where he is were in mecca or madina, Sorry of there is any gramatical or spelling mistakes english isnt my first language and thank you, Good bye ,salam!
Wow, lots of haters in these comments.
Religion never fails to bring out the best in everyone.
Muslim604 out nun
You almost got it right, we hate Islam not people, but since Muslims meaning the people are the one killing people in the name of Allahabad we tend to hate them too
@@Matthew-hh6ex lol lol
The lack of historical narrative of the time points to the earlier origins of the religion. Islam was not founded by Muhammad SAW; he only continued the same divine teachings of previous prophets like Abraham, Moses and Jesus
I only have one question. When they expanded after 630, the weapons they used, where was it made? Made inm which country? That will give me idea
Made in China
are you reffering to india ???sure swords made in subcontinent india were really famous in quality in arab and arab world and subcontinent india always had trade between them.
does that answer your question???
There's basically no documents talking about the Arab armies during the initial invasions. Arabic sources don't exist, Sassanid sources don't exist and while Byzantine sources do exists the say next to nothing on the topic.
It is mentioned that the Arabs have little to no cavalry in their Armies, but beyond that the record is painfully blank. How the Arabs did so well militarily against the Byzantines and Sassanids is still a big question in history, especially when both sides had used Arab tribes as mercenaries, and were quite familiar with them.
As Arabic speaker I must say that you are very knowledgeable and very fluent in Arabic.
Despite knowing some arabic, mostly what he said is not very accurate
Very good analysis and impressive Arabic pronounciation. However, I think you put so much emphasis on the distinction between a believer and a muslim. In Arabic the two words may be used as synonyms sometimes, but according to a prophetic tradition, it has been explained that a Muslim's relation to God starts by becoming a Muslim, which essentially consists of obeying the commandments of the Five Pillars of Islam. Next comes "Iman", believing, which is the next step in a Muslim's approaching to God's favor. The concept consists of believing in the existence of God, his angels, his holy books, his prophets, the Latter Day and finally in the existence of fate. The last step is called "Ihsan" I don"t know how to translate this one to English, but I'll try to explain it here. Ihsan is the highest level of faith that a Muslim could strive for, it essentially means worshipping God as if one were sure that He sees their every move. The notion of Ihsan is a little troubeling because it challenges Muslims' belief in God's omnipresence. The perfect Muslim is supposed to remember God in each and every moment of thei lives, that's why if you ever get to meet a really devout Muslim you'd find them repeating mantras (oral prayers) specific to every action they make during the day. There are mantras for when you wake up, when you bath, before you eat, after you eat, while you eat in case you forgot to say it at the beginning, when you go out, when you come back home etc...
🙏🌺
It's good to be musl8
God Bless you
إحسان
Hardcore
Thank you. Can they say original mantras. ?
@@greenlimabean There are many examples. What I called mantras are generally prayers (Dua'a), but they need to be distinguished from the act of praying "Salat" which is ritual repeated at least 5 times a day by all Muslims.
The Dua'a prayers are memorized citations, the work like Christian prayers, I called them mantras because the word "prayer" has 2 different translations in Arabic.
Examples of these prayers or mantras are numerous. Before eating or drinking, one is supposed to say "Bismillah - In the Name of God". After eating Muslims are supposed to say "Alhamdulillah - Praise be to God".
When waking up, there are collections of prayers and mantras called "Azkaru Sabah - Citations of the Morning"that Muslims memorize and speak them to themselves every morning.
These are some minor examples.
If there are any Muslim believers out there, what do you make of what Professor Donner just presented ?
Watching it and I'll get back to you
I went to college at a less rigorous place than The University of Chicago (Yale). I'm not sure I could have got thru even though I was accepted in 1964. I have watched greatly impressed the TH-cam videos of your head of the writing program, Larry McEnerney. Is the present gentleman the same or a differnt person? They look the same on the video. Their gestures are the same. Their voices are the same. Two most impressive figures. I know this is not "relevant". But even though I am not part of your community, I have devoted my life to "the life of the mind" (I never set foot in the Yale Bowl). I studyed with a professor from a school at least geographically near you although perhaps ideologically different, who came to Yale from Northwestern, John Wild.
Comments section shows that the society is already brainwashed and dont want to listen anything which is opposite to the media. Thanks for this lecture. Here is a verse from Qur'an:
Indeed, those who have believed and those who became Jews and Christians and the Sabians who believe in God and the Day of Judgment and do good deeds, they shall have their reward with their Lord and they shall neither have fear [for the future] nor any remorse [for the past]. (2:62)
Go checkout exmuslim spartacus channel if you understand urdu.
Sabean are moon worshippers. Prove more that Allah is al Ilah. All you guys did was take the I out
Is that true? I haven’t read so I don’t know. I don’t care for this man’s atheistic religious perspective, but I appreciate having the opportunity presented to see and read your comment. Peace be with you, brother.
@@orlandothompson4186 you are a living proof of Dunning-Kruger effect
But history has shown Islam has caused 374 million deaths in this world. Still calling Islam peaceful?
I love how he really knows how to pronounce Arabic words.
@RedEyeOfJupiter 2121 And forbids use of the brain to question islam, and the reward is death. Kinda bad for a god who is so arrogant.
@RedEyeOfJupiter 2121 Actually it tells it believers to study and reflect on god's "creation". The problem is that we don't know if anything is "created" or not, so taddabur and taffakur seems like a waste of time till someone comes up with a definite answer to any link between creation and existence. The islamic god allah seems to break that rule, and allegedly exists without being created, so does existence mean different things to different people? Seems like what to "study and reflect" was never clear. So lets assume I study and reflect on tentacle porn. Am I then on the path to Pursuit of Knowledge and Truth?
Also the wrong thing about the knowledge claim is that Allah is unobservable, so how can anyone including the rotting body of mohammed observe it? And who sets the standard for truth when the said "knowledge" is just belief without evidence, appropriately called "faith".
@RedEyeOfJupiter 2121 _"Islam also challenge those who disparage against Islam and what it stands for"_
Correction: Since allah can't defend himself, partly because he is imaginary, you muslims defend him from the danger that his non existence may be realized by muslims.
_"That if what is true and righteous & paradise is yours"_
Comment: First the existence of paradise must be established. Else this is a meaningless statement. Also a "true" by the standard of something that does not exist? Very silly.
Righteous to whom? Fellow man or sky daddy? Or allah's limp dick?
_"Then why don't you embrace death"?_
Short for "kill yourself". Hey, I am here to stay. Besides we both go to the same place when we die, and that is below the soil on this tiny planet earth. By the way mohammed is rotting there too. Worms ate his testicles.
Perhaps you can demonstrate the existence of paradise by killing your righteous self and come back to life and show me god. Perhaps then I will follow your advice then.
the Document survived through Memorization.
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
Quran 4 : 157-158
....
Jay Smith lectures.. gives some very good explanation into the origins of Islam.
Sure, some people prefer empty entertainment over facts. Each to their own.
The man is a documented fraud.