Thought's on Scorsese's takes? (...and is Morbius really as bad as they say lmfao for some reason I had my hopes up but jokes on me I guess) 💀 Don't forget that you can use my code ANAISABEL10 to get 10% off any purchase at Game Beauty (link in description) ✨
He's Martin Scorsese, he can say whatever he wants. That said, I really want people to stop asking these stupid questions. Who cares? Honestly, as much as I love superhero movies, I cannot wait for a new trend for Hollywood to exploit. I hope it's fairies and folklore.
I haven't seen Morbius but that in part because i just want Sony to give up the ghost and in part because i dont like Leto in soup films. He just feels forced at this point, like how Will Smiths kids keep ending up in films they dont really belong in. Ikd I just didnt feel all that intrigued by Morbius.
I saw it and we enjoyed it, but it's insane that that's the final cut and they had three years to get it right. I give it a 6.5/10 which is probably generous, but I did actually enjoy it. It's fine. Just go in with low expectations if you can.
Also Scorcese sounds like an old man shouting at the clouds. Art comes in all different forms and they all have merit even if he doesn't fully understand them. Should we pan modern art museums because they're full of pieces which in no way resemble classic styles? Absolutely not.
Growing up in the 90's, I remember the theater lineup being action thrillers, hard sci-fi, Farrelly Brothers comedies, romantic comedies, slasher films, historical dramas, Disney animated films, and the rare appearance of superhero films. I love superhero films, and I still watch them, but I also kinda miss some of the other genres. They're not gone entirely, but there's a lot fewer of them.
@@dramafreelyfe I don't blame the superhero films. The financers decide what projects get funded. And lately, they're favoring a very safe bet with the superhero films.
@@willverschneider1102 They have ALWAYS favored the safe bet. That's why the movies you mentioned were what you saw in the 90's. I also think the past two years have coloured your view. Not a lot was released.
Increased competition (high quality Television, Internet, Video Games, higher amount of movies released) have created a tougher field, especially for mid-budget movies. To chance of being financially viable with a 50 million dollar movie (i.e. with marketing having to make at least 100 million dollars) is much smaller than it was before. We therefore mostly see two kinds of movies these days: the big blockbusters (where the spectacle creates a lot of hype for a lot of people) and low budget movies (where a large box office is thus not as necesseary and can allow more risk-taking). Due to the large competition, even with both of these approaches a success is not given. Even if you look at the recent Disney live-action releases that aren't sequels or part of a larger universe (e.g. The Nutcracker and the Four Realms, A Wrinkle in Time), these movies were far from being a box-office success and most likely meant a loss to the film studio ...
@@SilortheBlade Of course, difference is, in 90s for some blockbusters they actually made good scripts and made an effort to be good. Now it is factory like production. Star Wars, super hero movies are not special anymore
My bigger issue with the "cinematic universe" approach is that the business and schedule imperatives of the franchise prevent directors and writers from taking time to find their voice. Captain Marvel was handled by former indie directors not used to studio imperatives and you can tell the movie kinda found its proper voice, form and feel halfway through the shooting. It could have been a much better movie if they had been given more time but there was no way Marvel would wait and reshoot some scenes or change the script when the movie had to fit in between so many other releases to make sure End War made sense. Same thing with Solo: the original directors were kicked out because their script and filming schedule and tone would not fit the mold of Disney’s grand plan. I think that’s where Scorcese’s criticism is justified. The real issue isn’t the cape, it’s the calendar.
It's Funny Scorcese later said "he didn't mean Marvel movies,he meant superhero movies" on Camera. But nobody cares to report about this. He also said these films should should not crowd out filmskers like Thomas Anderson but Anderson himself have said he is a big fan of the MCU and he went to Endgame five times just to experience the theatre moment with the crowd.. It's also funny that everyone forgot about how much Scorcese was opposed to the introduction of blockbuster movies like Jaws when it first arrived because they cost too much money and cinema shouldn't be about money. It's also funny that he claimed Netflix was the dead of Cinema when it came out but shortly later made a very very expensive Netflix movie himself....lol
From a certain perspective, while art is about expression, eating while being an artist is about pleasing the patron and getting paid. It has always been unfair. The 1970's through the 1990's were just a good combination of economics and technical capability. In the early days the studios cranked out all kinds of schlock to provide enough entertainment. Now with high costs, the franchise is better. It is also worth noting that individual vision without an eye for integration can nearly kill a studio (see new Star Wars trilogy).
@@diannajennings266 "It's also funny that everyone forgot about how much Scorcese was opposed to the introduction of blockbuster movies like Jaws when it first arrived because they cost too much money and cinema shouldn't be about money." That's absolutely untrue. Just check the SPIELBERG documentary. "In one of the doc’s most delightful moments, Spielberg and Martin Scorsese both recount how when Jaws first swam into theaters, Scorsese suggested they take a little drive. The rumor around Hollywood was that Jaws might sink rather than swim. “The word around town was that Jaws was a folly, and that it was going to be a disaster,” Scorsese says. But Spielberg and Scorsese hopped in a car and drove from theater to theater in Los Angeles and saw massive, blockbusting lines that stretched for miles, all waiting to see Jaws. It was proof that Jaws was going to be a monster-sized hit, and that Spielberg was about to become a huge director."
I think Scorseses key issue with the modern superhero movies aren't the movies themself. He doesn't like them personally and doesn't consider them cinema but respects the effort and work put into it and is happy people enjoy it. He just doesn't like Blockbusters, even in the 80s he never did, yet was still friends with Lucas and Spielberg, the 2 leading directors who made Blockbusters huge. What Scorsese is actually concerned about is that the market is oversatuated and that studios don't want to take any risks anymore and want to fund smaller riskier films because producing a franchise is just a safer bet. Before the MCU studios were willing to support smaller and riskier Films as well as Blockbusters, which is just not happening today. So young, unsuccessful Filmmakers can't get funding for their ideas unless they align with what is bankable and so creativity for individual ideas get harder and harder to make. So that is definetly a big issue and I think it is great and respectable of him to point that out and it is proven that he is right in that regard. Major Studios don't produce smaller, independent, A24 like films and so the risk of a one-sided Film market is there. I have to add, this is a really well put and interesting video even if I don't agree with you a 100%, it is always well funded and reasoned. Great job!
I think you nailed Scorcese's point of view. And yeah as much as I like superheroes I also miss comedies, sci-fi, suspense and other movie genres. The other day I saw "The Seven-Ups" (1973) and totally enjoyed it. The director was the producer for "Bullitt" & "The French Connection." I miss those kind of movies.
I agree at last with that movies ae taking less riks, Hell even studios and popcorn movies. Alo i miss weird movies that arent franchise related, or at least if they are , that they can e anything, regarding movie franchises, i respect xmen th most, becaue as messy at it is, they do go political, they go weird Do whatever. And dc aproach is better from a storytelling perspective to do whatever really, even if i dont like snyder and eeh itsvry his and mid,but the identity of the movies i definitly thre even in the worst. Thats crativity. I just think for better and worse, dc movie just are more memorable and better as movies generally. If yeah very hit or miss. An even nyder said thing clear in the voice even if i dont like him being wriong there about supes so much. Its an identity still. i like blade runner but thats 2 movuies to compare,which are great but not enough to qualify And james guns movies are great as exception.
While I still like the MCU overall, I really can't stand how it's popularity really accelerated this "Whedonification" of pop culture. Stories seem almost afraid of being sincere or being labeled as pretentious if they "take themselves seriously", as was seen with how people acted all confused about Dune and other such films.
Wait, there were people who disliked Dune 'cause it didn't drop enough jokes?? 😳 But yes - while I do think that Whedon-esque quippiness has its place in some stories/genres, forcing it makes for the worst kind of "humor". Personally, one of the biggest non-superhero offenders to come to mind in recent times is "Free Guy" (though I find most Ryan Reynolds movies to be guilty of this tbh).
@@ana-isabel Legit, when Dune came out people were TORN because they expected the movie to explain everything to them from the get-go due to being so MCU-ised and thought it was too serious due to a lack of quips and jokes.
Tis why The Batman felt like a breath of fresh air for me. It actually feels like a cinematic experience-- feels like it belongs in the realm of what Scorcese defines as cinema. On top of that it's a film that stands on its own, in the midst of these cinematic universes. That being said, I'm optimistic for Marvel going forward-- with the psychological aspects of Moon Knight and the horror elements of the next Dr. Strange movie, we may be in for a more unique MCU. Hoping this doesn't age poorly
Fingers crossed! I've got high hopes for Moon Knight and the Doctor Strange sequel. Totally agree with you on The Batman too, love the Fincher-esque personality they injected into it. (And you don't have to know much about the characters beforehand to enjoy it either!)
dang you're right about the CONSTANT SNARK. it's literally every character now, even in the shows. But as you mentioned, it's obvious that the producers saw the success of it from a decade ago and just wanted to maintain the same appeal... and we're left with the results.
Agreed. Someone needs to tell them, yes, we already know u are actors, and that this isnt real. U dont have to remind us constantly and if they dont take it seriously, whats the point then? Then just say u are making action comedies, which MCU is, at this point
I’ll admit I’ve had superhero fatigue pretty much since Endgame, but I can’t imagine calling basically an entire film genre “poison” or abjectly harmful to cinema.
I think its more a problem of studios who are already risk averse seeing the almost guaranteed profits with superhero movies creating an environment where movies which are too different (but could be very good/creative/unusual) are deemed too risky - why would we take a risk on this when we know Avengers 11 will make the $$$$! This mentality will invariably prevent potentially wonderful creations from seeing the light of day. So it's less about superhero's and more about capitalism... I suppose. EDIT: This can also be applied to the seemingly endless reboots of previously successful franchises vs taking a risk on something new.
The problem is now they're betting on something they're getting bit by more often. People that might not be the majority are disliking remakes more and more. To them the people that aren't "watching / paying for it" see what they're investing is still a sure fire way to make an easy billion. That ain't working no more.
For me this is deja vu all over again, as Yogi Berra once famously said. I heard the same argument against Spielberg and Lucas way back in the '80's when they were making their blockbuster Star Wars and Indiana Jones franchises.
But only Disney can make Avengers 11. Everyone in the world who isn't Disney is going to have to make something else. The reason why every big screen movie is now a sequel or a reboot is because studios deal with theaters says that they get most of the box office from the first week of release. For this reason, the opening weekend is all important to the studio. Every property must have its audience right away. There's no time for word of mouth, or for finding an audience anymore. Marvel didn't create this situation, it just exploits it better than most. You're not going to see new concepts from studios anymore. You haven't seen it in years. Everything new is on television. The damage has already been done.
I wonder what will happen if marvel makes movies of the pulp heroes they have. What happens is that a lot of studios have pulp heroes and they don't do anything, basically they are the princess bride and pirates of the caribbean with more powers. And what you say is real, but the average public doesn't read tv tropes, they prefer tabloid headlines.
@@joseloayza502 Yes. There is a lot of wasted potential. Marvel is actually proof, since the MCU originated from less known characters, because they didn't have the most popular ones back then.
The Shadow and The Phantom are especially weird as they are more famous than Iron Man but their movies came out at the wrong time with the wrong narrative. The shadow is Dr.Strange with guns that is simpler than that. Dr.Strange was not known until 2016.
Yeah, marvel just reuses the same story all over again, and it hasn’t yielded them anything above mediocre status, i hope this boring universe dies soon
I don't have superhero fatigue. My fate was sealed after Wandavision. Thing is, I pick and choose what I like- I like the shows and Shang chi, but not into Eternals. I still have not seen NWH. I avoid fatigue by going by my own pace and desire and not the marketing.
Which is a smart and actually intelligent way to go. I love the MCU but Eternals sucked. All the comments here saying “I gave up years ago/they’re all exactly the same/there’s no stakes/there’s no emotional scars from what has happened”…. My answer to that is have you even seen WandaVision?? That show was incredible. I cried the first time and cried the second time watching again with my parents. It’s such an absolutely beautiful exploration of grief and love. Also No Way Home was great. A lot of fun but it did make me cry in the theater around half way through. Where Infinity War and End Game were the climax and celebration of 10 years of intertwining movies and characters, No Way Home is a celebration of the SpiderMan franchise(s) we’ve had over the past 20 years.. and a very strong road forward.
Well said and I feel exactly the same way. I'm not fatigued on Super Herp Hero movies and nor am I worried about the dreaded ''Super Hero fatigue''. I believe that the Super Hero genre will be around for many more years to come and that it isn't going anywhere. As long as the material is unique,new and different,the genre will be fine. People can forget how diverse and eclectic comic books are,so too,it's exactly the same thing with movies based on them. Also,I know that we're talking about Super Heroes but not all comic books are even about Super Heroes! So too,not all movies based on comics have to be about Super Heroes. Most people in the general audience wouldn't know that movies like Ghost World, A History Of Violence,Road To Perdition and 300(to name a few)were based on comic books unless someone told them them or unless they found out about it after the fact.
@@JR-ju3kj A history of violence is an adaptation? Huh. Cool. Anyway, yes, in the superhero genre alone it's quite diverse and weird. I mean, look at X-Men and fantastic four. Hopefully the movies and/or tv will get that vibe. Besides legion that is.
@@katherinealvarez9216 That's right,A History Of Violence is an adaptation of a comic book. And so is The Crow,The Mask,Time Cop,Tank Girl,Barb Wire,Men In Black,American Splendor,V For Vendetta,Red, Oblivion,Josie And The Pussycats,From Hell,Cowboys And Aliens,2 Guns,the 2014 Hercules movie with Dwayne Johnson,Kingsman:The Secret Service,Edge Of Tomorrow and much more! So again,comic book movies are much more broad in their subject matter than most people would think and they can be about more than just Super Heroes.
@@katherinealvarez9216 yes, and a road to perdition with Tom Hanks, and a LOT of others. Funny thing is, the ones you don't think of as being comic book movies are often not thought of as such because they aren't superhero comics, and believe it or not, a lot of the better ones aren't published by the big two publishers. (meaning a lot like hellboy, 300, Road to perdition, etc. are actually published by Dark Horse, Image, Valiant, etc... OR, they might be DC's lesser recognized and now defunct Vertigo line... Like 100 bullets, The Human Target, etc..) Still think the current marvel movies are shit. >.> (had to get that in there, I'm all for more of these comics getting adapted though).
In my experience, all of my friends who claim to have superhero fatigue are also the same people who refuse to watch indie movies when I recommend them. I feel like that's probably true for most people as well. People will complain, but then not give new things a chance.
I find that a lot of the stuff under A24 tend to strike a good balance between the more experimental/arthouse-y filmmaking and commercial appeal; perhaps try and recommend some popular films from there :)
It’s kind of funny to me that the MCU has taken one of the most creative mediums and turned it into a watered down, basic, bland, and mediocre movie series. It’s honestly impressive how they have managed to suck all of the life and joy out of something so simple
I’ve stopped watching Marvel movies after Eternals. I never never want to watch the “Loki” show. Because i feel like it will slaughter Loki’s character!
Superhero movies aren't the problem. They're an easy target, considering how huge and how many there are, but the *real* problem was Titanic. With an unreal production budget for its time, it set a new template for filmmaking: huge budgets = huge box office earnings and critical acclaim. The success of The Lord of the Rings demonstrated how this approach could be used to generate escalating box office revenue with sequels. It worked for The Matrix, for Pirates, blockbusters could be procedurally generated via financial algorithm. Superhero movies are simply best suited for these economics and predictably perform well. The shared universe approach even means that interest won't start to wane after a finished trilogy. At the same time, home video is getting progressively better *and* cheaper. The Middle Class can safely afford their own home theater, and this means more people are fine with watching something in the comfort of their living rooms unless the movie is something of an event or presents a sense of scale that one's home simply cannot replicate. Most people would agree with Martin Scorsese on what constitutes fine cinema, but most audiences are fine with watching it on Netflix, especially if there is a Plague going on, even *without* having 7.2 channels and a 75" screen. Superhero movies aren't killing cinema. Oversized production budgets are.
The snark is so incredibly tiring and just makes all movies feel and sound exactly the same. At this point, the only difference between them is their superpower. Someone like Spiderman is supposed to be quippy, that's his character, but since everyone else is ultra-quippy too he loses his character. It's like they're deathly afraid that viewers will lose interest if they don't constantly make snarky jokes, like dangling a keyring in front of a baby.
RIGHT? I swear it got to a point where everyone started sounding like Tony Stark, and it's become such a staple that I just go in expecting it now. Which is why - as far as Marvel movies go - I find (most of) the X-Men movies First Class onwards to be nice breath of fresh air; they don't have to over-rely on the schtick.
I also find it a bit funny that the movie with three Spider-Men somehow managed to avoid being overly quippy and actually maintained dramatic tension in the scenes where it mattered most.
It even bled into Star Wars. Like let an dark and or emotional moment happen just don't pick one or two to not poison with the bad jokes. My biggest example is ep8 when Finn was about to sacrifce himself to safe the base. They turned that whole moment in to a slapstick comedy bit about "safe yourself" yet that wasn't the point.
I'm torn in how I feel about this; on one hand, I don't like the elitist undertones of some of the criticisms- the idea of some things being 'real cinema' while others aren't really rubs me the wrong way, I always hate the language of *'real* [art form]' in general. I don't think superhero movies are a lesser concept/genre, and like... even if all they are is fun (and that's not necessarily the case) there's still room for that, sometimes art can just be *fun* and people aren't wrong for enjoying things that aren't that deep. And even though I'm not part of this myself because I'm not really a fan of Marvel movies, I definitely get that the excitement and community of the thing that you love being this phenomenon that everyone's keeping up with must be really fun, and more overarching, long-term storytelling can be really effective and rewarding. But on the other hand, I really agree with some of the criticisms as well. The whole phenomenon of the MCU and general reliance on big franchise movies doesn't sit right with me at all either. Other people could and have put it into words better than I can, but it feels so... heavily commercial, I guess? Like. They've found a couple things that work, that are reliably profitable, and so that's what's getting made or at least getting noticed. I don't like so much of the landscape of movies being under one umbrella, coming from one place and a place with so much power at that. And I don't want what these movies are like to become an *expectation,* a *standard* for what movies in general *should* be like. I guess basically my beef is more with capitalism than superhero movies. There's room for all kinds of movies, and the concern I have is big-budget franchise stuff *not* leaving room for others to thrive.
I think you hit the nail on the head; both criticisms from both sides can be true at the same time. And while there's room for both types of pictures on the table (and should be imo), the challenge is continuing to spotlight a wide range of stories, ideas, and industry voices, rather than sticking to a very limited few just because it's profitable. Sadly, it's definitely difficult to achieve because as you said... capitalism - but maybe, with the help of streaming services, social media, and creative forms of distribution (i.e. the on-demand model Paranormal Activity used), helping general audiences see all the other types of film experiences cinema has to offer, it's not impossible.
It isn't Capitalism you gotta remember there's a difference from the free market which is what Capitalism is and Corporatism. Corprations like Disney is basically a Monopoly, a "Mega Corp" to some. Due to them having so much control an clearly working with their "rivals". It's easy to for them to warp the free market to punish those trying to stand with them. Even a bit after Iron Man we had some movie diversity where everybody got some shine and people talked about other pieces. Yet now it's either Marvel or anime. Even typical Disney movies don't get talked about unless there's some drama behind it. So if you want quality you need elitism or you're not gonna get something worth your money. What I realised there's an elitist that can back up their words and those that claim to be elite yet cannot hang. If they can back up their words they've truly earned the right to be elite. Yet being elite they do not have the right to gatekeep/sabotage the market in their favor. Since if there's only one set of truly elite when they're gone they're gone. Nobody was properly raised to take their place. Which can be good and bad.
I agree with you. Art for art's sake..I used to be a marvel fan (average) because earlier their stories appealed to me, they used to be fun and unpredictable (I guess because I was quite young) but these days, especially after infinity war, they have become too predictable and their script is simply bland. They have been relying heavily on cgi and star cast imo (like you said things that work and are reliably profitable). I went to theatres for nwh and was utterly disappointed because somewhere I knew Peter would win and it would be a happy ending for the most part, there might be some damage here and there but that was it.
@@sophitiaofhyrule Which is an ebb and flow to how the market works because without the CLEAR corruptive nature people have, plus with laziness. That whole aspect seems smart. People working with people to meet the same goals? If it was only that consistent, too often we let people destroy what we love because we love it too much. That's corpo rot right there, wonder why things changed up that didn't need to? Or why do they keep pushing one thing? It's all connected.
Regarding character stakes, it really bothers me when people act like death is the only thing that can bring stakes to a character's journey. Stakes can be raised in all sorts of ways, from permanent injuries, lessons learned along the way, emotional scars, etc. Just because you know they aren't going to die doesn't mean there's no risk.
Did you watch WandaVision? I think that deals with exactly what you’re looking for as far as all the other ways you listed. Like, in every way you listed.
@@ryanb4940 I did but it really sucks how they treated Wanda like she was the wronged party at the end, "They'll never know what you sacrificed", when she was controlling a whole town like meatpuppets. Great show but one or two lines changed there would have been so much better.
I mean yes that is true but the mcu doesn’t have that either, BP got thrown off a waterfall and he was fine, Bucky fell off a train and he was fine, Wanda’s a little upset but she’ll be fine, Tony was being hurt by his arc reactor but he was fine. The issue is that none of these so called stakes actually affect anything in the story because in the end everything will be fine so who really cares
@@PenitusVox ya that was my biggest gripe with the show and what made me cringe with her line in the Dr Strange trailer. The amount of people that defend her as being in the right is confusing, as she was literally holding people against their will and making them act out a fake life to help her deal with her own emotions.
I've been a Marvel fan since the beginning. I go to avant-premieres, I have merch, I read comics, etc. Whenever someone involved with the MCU displays their discontent with Scorsese specifically and this debate in general, I feel like never paying for a ticket to watch one of the things ever again. You're under no real threat. You already own the market. Is that not enough? Why do you need everyone to genuflect and recognize your legitimacy? I'll answer that last one myself: because you don't really feel as legitimate as you make it seem, do you? Somewhere deep down you fear that Marty's right and you're just a passing fad. Marvel is McDonald's. I'll have it once a month, sure. I won't have it everyday.
@@anteprs7908 that's a lie. I live in the UK and most people I know, do know who Scorsese. When I also lived in Italy, many people knew who Scorsese is. Do you believe the people outside the USA don't watch his movies or what?
@@peterparker1707 italy will know him for sure he make italian gangster movies for uk maybe a argument but most ppl i know who he is isnt a argument to begin with .
Incredibly well made video - great job! I think the quote from Natalie Portman at 11:04 summaries the problem: "I think there's room for all types of cinema." The overwhelming popularity and saturation of 'superhero movies' has changed the landscape so much that many other 'types of cinema' aren't being made anymore. Mid-budget (generally $15-$60 Million) movies that dominated the mid-90s and early 2000s are now seen as too risky for production companies (especially post-COVID) and so will only be financed if an established/powerful director is attached. Some outliers in that bracket (Knives Out, John Wick, American Hustle, Paddington 2) still managed to make a lot of money, which is awesome. But there are SO MANY genuinely good mid-budget movies from the last decade (e.g. Nice Guys, Last Night in Soho, Molly's Game) that barely made their money back. And this means that unfortunately people just don't want to see these movies anymore. (Well yeah, some people clearly do, but not enough to make them financially justifiable) And therefore the studios won't make them. So it's pretty stupid to "blame" superhero movies, or Marvel, for this change in the cinematic landscape, because it's really up to us. If people want the Shawshank Redemption's and Good Will Hunting's of the world to keep being made, then go watch some mid-budget movies instead of Iron Man 17 when you next go to the cinema. Or both! That's fine too.
I think it interesting that all these directors who object so strongly to the entire genre of superhero movies come from, or have at least dappled in, the world of gangster movies. A genre that has been accused of being “played out” or “overdone” since the 1920’s. In fact by the 1970’s gangster films were so closely associated with the lowest common denominator movie-goer that Coppola only agreed to direct The Godfather for the paycheck, which he desperately needed after he and Lucas’s Indi passion project THX 1138 basically bankrupted them. He truly believed at the time that taking on a “trashy” gangster flick would be the end of his reputation as a “real” director. At least Coppola remains consistent in his outspoken disgust for anything he feels is beneath him.
Damn, I actually never knew this about gangster movies! Thanks for the trivia; it's also interesting how Coppola went on to direct two more sequels for the Godfather despite his apparent disdain for the genre.
@Loki Jaxson is it superhero movies of an industry refusing to adapt? Because those movies are only making the money they do because people are going to see them. We are getting mad at these movies but somehow not the industry for trying to copy cat the formula. Which they always do, just this time the competition in the media landscape with streaming and alternative media is more intense then ever before
@@ana-isabel That might be like how Alan Moore dislikes Superheroes yet he made some of the most genre-defining works for them. Coppola disliking Gangster movies means he's gonna make it good to not shit on his name. Like "I'm sure as hell not gonna make a trash movie"
While I love superhero movies and love that nerdy things are finally mainstream unlike when I was growing up, as a quote on quote movie fan I can't help but agree with Scorsese. I'm getting pretty tired of superhero movies especially the mcu at this point especially when it comes to creative control and playing it too safe by not taking any storytelling risks. Even in its own genre superhero movies, which are supposed to be wild, zany, and imaginative have become stale and lazy. Unlike back when these movies were seen as risks they had to take chances to be noticed, there's no passion anymore. The lack of passion is what make many of them forgettable and that's a shame. You may not agree and that's cool but that's just the way I see it.
To be fair, I do think superheroes have seen a surge of creative stories in television lately - namely shows like The Boys, Invincible, Legion; and even the MCU ones like Wandavision and Moon Knight (only seen the first ep but it did leave an interesting enough impression). If you haven't checked out The Boys or Invincible yet though, I do recommend them! :D Preacher (if it counts) is cool too.
@@ana-isabel Yeah I've heard good things about those shows and I do plan on watching them if and when I get around to them. It seems that more ballsy and creative swings are being done on TV. I'm just a little bummed about superhero (and generally big budget) movies not taking those swings as well. Thanks for the recommendations, I appreciate it.
@@nathanielstoll4533 This is true. I think being under mega corporations, and in attempting to please every demographic possible (to rake in those theatre tickets), most popular superhero movies these days tend to be a lot more sanitized. With streaming services, it seems creators can afford to push boundaries a lil more. Hope you enjoy the recos! :)
@@ana-isabel Invincible is a travesty of adaptation, I want to take it rights for Kirkman and give someone who actually cares. It is 90's and 00's edge with no actual mind of original.
Exactly. As long as the material is quality,unique and different and as long as it brings something new and exciting to the the Super Hero genre,the Super Hero genre will be fine.
I have been reading comic books four decades now. I'm tired of constant super hero tv and films being churned out I just wish film and comics were separated again. Too many problems have occurred.
This was proven years before Marvel movies... So many movies now deemed "cult" were failures in their time, some ended careers even entire studios. Popular movies are just that throughout history, they are rarely "exceptional"
For me, it goes beyond superhero movies. A lot of blockbuster cinema, superheroes included, is big, loud, and kind of exhausting to sit through. I don't need my movies to swing in the exact opposite direction, but goddammit chill out. Lower the stakes a bit, bring down the runtime, make something that doesn't tie into an overarching plot that makes watching several other 160 minute movies mandatory for me to keep up.
I see marvel movies like I see my romance books. I love romance and mystery books that some would consider “trashy” or “not real literature” but I enjoy them and the fact that I go into them knowing the couple will be together or they will discover the murderer or thief in the end is a comfort in a way. I know what I’m expecting is coming but I still enjoy it for the journey and how it will get to that ending.
MCU has slowly but surely evolved into a high budget CW superhero fest. Shallow to nonexistent character development, forced political propaganda and shiny visuals.
@@Linklex7 But Sharktale did try to copy Shrek, with it's quirky side kick, celebrity actors, pop song inclusion, and dance party finale 👀 And failed miserably 😂
This was a really great video that really delved into the discussion and didn't make it black and white. I have to say I think one aspect not touched upon is the different cultures of people like Scorsese / the film fan community that blends into the film industry and the movie going audience. Most people are working class, we only got so much money, and the stories and characters we want to see aren't always those in indie & not blockbuster films. As much as Scorses would want folks like me to watch Taxi Driver over say Black Panther, I'd watch Black Panther in a heart beat because its story - about the African diaspora & its conflict of its nation in how to best fit in the wider world & the personal struggle of King T'Challa - is what speaks to me. Not the story about a racist taxi driver appealing to white people & their need of edgy insane antiheroes.
Thanks! 🙏 To be fair I think there are a vast range of stories to be found in indie cinema, especially if you include the works of other countries. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that this side of cinema is probably better at supporting a more diverse range of voices along with unique directorial ideas. (However, you do make a point in that they're sadly not as accessible as commercial blockbusters.) Of course, at the end of the day - we derive meaning from art or entertainment that speaks to us best. For many it could be a Marvel film, while plenty others might go for a Scorsese flick.
@@ana-isabel Yeah and there's a lot of indie film makers that do touch our cultural circles / the voices and POVs of minorities / non white people. But the different culture of consuming / viewing movies is still very clear and different from indie & wider releases. Even when an indie film is about entirely black, latino, asian, or other non white characters, those movies aren't being marketed to us working class folks of those backgrounds. It's to white people, to upper middle classers / & the wealthy. The people who have ridiculous privilege to enjoy watching movies at film festivals, to buy magazines, go to film school - its a whole other culture from me or the working class family that might go to the theaters less than five times a year cause it makes more sense to spend on groceries. Sorry for the word dumping ^_^; I just think when it comes to talking about film, the films we watch, and the people that watch them, there's levels to the conversation and audience not considered much of the time.
I agree except I have to point out that Travis Bickle isn’t supposed to be appealing or an antihero. The audience isn’t supposed to identify with him at all
@@JurassicLion2049 I understand your point i just wanted to share that the Taxi Driver comment is wrong because it's antagonist is a bad person on purpose and wasn't meant to be connected with. That's why Scoerse (idk if i spelled that right) movies are considered art while blockbusters are just entertainment, art movies present to you uncomftorable things from the real world to make you aware of those things around you and to make you ponder about them, blockbusters are just meant to entertain you and they have safe stories to appeal to masses.
Also if you wanted that there are plenty of independent movies that broach those types of subject without having to make it safe and marketable for mainstream audiences like marvel did. Would a blockbuster that wasn’t marvel get made filling that void in an alternate universe? Maybe. The societal pressure would still be there, but it’s impossible to know and black panther is great, but nothing the Disney corporation puts out will ever be revolutionary in any sense of the word unless it’s a theme park ride
I used to be really excited for the MCU movies but I’ve been over it for years now. To me now they are a lot of cgi visual noise. I feel like the stakes aren’t very high in the movies either, you kinda know how it’s gonna play out even without knowing all the comic lore. I think comparing them to a theme park is accurate but I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Theme parks and fun and exciting they just aren’t for everyone. That being said I understand why people are still really excited about them. It’s just not for me.
You’re like 100% wrong. MCU movies are great. Funny, fun, exciting. The stakes are through the roof if you watched till Infinity War. And WandaVision was a god damn masterpiece of television that explores grief in such an incredible way that by the time you realize it you’re so wrapped in the love of these two characters you cry that it had to end. But sure over it for years is a smart take on it all. 🙄
No Way Home was the point at which my Marvel fatigue overtook my ability to enjoy these movies. I knew in my head that the movie was great but my heart was just so sick of multiple variations on the same formula that I just couldn't enjoy Sort of like if I ate pizza every day for a year. Sure I love pizza, and pizza is still great but after a while just, please can I eat some cereal or something PLEASE
I think also a big part of the problem with superhero movies and more particularly Marvel movies is that they play very safe, from the moment you know a movie was made to fit a marketing mold, it was tested in different types of audiences, you know there won't be some kind of innovation. I just saw the new Dr. Strange movie and I honestly think they could have taken a very different path and stood out, however they chose to be safe, Marvel needs an M-17 division for their adult fans, movies like deadpool have already shown that the superheroes is not only a thing for children and teens. And also i do not agree with your point when you say that independent creators simply have to find more creative ways to survive and that you see that as "good", it is basically justifying the corporate bully that prevents all filmakers from having equal conditions. But aside from all that i think this was a great video, it's so refreshing to see a middle opinion from a fan of the superheroe genre acknowledging their faults and their good points and i value that.
The fact that people consider films like scorese makes "arthouse" or "indie" means superhero films have already won. Large scale movies used to have substance but now the movies have gotten so large and expensive, that they have to appeal to everyone and films made for adults that used to be mainstream keep shrinking in budget and exhibition. it's not that superhero films are going to kill indies, it's that it already has killed the mid budget drama.
So MCU is basically set up for next movie that sets up next movie so that next movie can be set up so that we can wait for final act in Avengers 10 in 8 years time, so that new Avengers have 30 shows that set up for next 10 movies. And yes, lets have jokes every 3 minutes
I think this is your best video yet! Congrats on a great work! You mentioned something that stood out to me about these movies resemble tv in their episodic approach, it is funny because with streaming must series are just a single 10-hour story now. I just think that the line between tv and cinema is becoming more and more blurry.
Well put, and I do feel the line is increasingly blurring. The quality of high-budget TV show these days often rivals that of films now, not to mention the growing number of A-list actors taking on television projects (a lot of the HBO stuff comes to mind). Glad you enjoyed the video! 🙏
The problem is when art is "factory made", lacking any unique personality or soul. This is the case in general, not just superhero movies(Marvel or otherwise). I don't think I have rewatched any of the newer Marvel movies, nor do I see myself ever doing it. I did enjoy Peacemaker and am currently watching Moon Knight, as it seems promising. For the most part, if you saw the trailer, you pretty much know what's up, which also goes into how poorly trailers are made.
The trailers that basically show you the whole movie in less than 5 minutes? That isn't if they don't go crazy and have like 2-5 trailers for one movie.
I think I get what he means. Yeah I generally enjoy watching most Marvel movies, but outside of, "Hey was that scene where this happens so cool?!?" and the like. But other movies such as Fight Club, Tigerland, American History X, Menace II Society, A Clockwork Orange, and others I have had actual genuinely meaningful conversations about dealing with the themes and characters. I feel one is there to watch and have a good time, where the other is to watch and think.
This made me look back to previous conversations I've had with friends about the MCU, and I realized too that yeah - with the exception of Civil War, Black Panther and some of the Spiderman films, the main discussion points are often how "cool" a lot of the sequences look. That isn't to say they didn't have their interesting themes or commentary, it's just the former often overshadows fhe latter. (Funny enough this was how I sold Shang Chi to others - that it had some of the best action sequences I've seen from the MCU in a while.) That said, of course those who've read the comics and typically have a deeper investment in the characters will often have more meaningful takes on them beyond how badass the movies make them look.
The whole cinematic universe concept has definitely gotten out of hand. That’s probably the worst thing the MCU brought to movies, in the sense that there have been so many copycats since then. This is coming from a years long MCU fan, mind you. I love Scorsese’s work, and that of other top level directors too, at the same time. I think film history has repeatedly shown that there will always be room for both mainstream fare, and the more “artistic” cinema. Like others here, I’m optimistic for the future of individual Marvel projects. Moon Knight is probably the most exciting and original thing from them in years.
I'm not necessarily feeling superhero fatigue as much as I am MCU fatigue specifically. Especially with the introduction of all of the Disney+ TV shows, I just don't have the time or the care to keep up with it all. That doesn't mean the movies/shows are bad though; I'm happy for everyone who is still watching and enjoying them. Personally I'm much more invested in what DC has been up to lately with their movies. Even if the DCEU has been a bit hit-or-miss, it feels refreshing compared to the sameness of the MCU
I feel this actually - despite its embarrassing flops I've always felt like DC's movies had a bit more creative edge to them; even among the films with subpar writing, they were at least _stylistically_ more memorable than most MCU films. Gunn's The Suicide Squad was pretty great, as was Peacemaker (despite some of the comedy falling flat imo).
Thank you for an excellent, thoughtful, and good faith discussion! I definitely see Scorsese's critiques as valid arguments around franchise movie making and the challenges it puts on smaller filmmakers, but I really hated the gatekeeping "these aren't films I grew up with so they therefore aren't 'cinema'" language. It's the same argument that kept "genre" fiction on its own shelves, separate from "real literature." We've been dealing with franchise filmmaking since 1977, I would argue, and with "spectacle" filmmaking since the 1950's (when Panavision became the CG equivalent spectacle of that time period).
I love Martin Scorsese. I love his films. He's a genuis! But sometimes I just want to watch Spiderman. In the same way that I absolutely love (and have made much of my living with) Shakespeare, but also frequently read romance novels and cozy mysteries. P.S, I absolutely love your content. 🥰
Scorsese is right about that they are more of a theme park you don't really see the movie for actually wanting to see it, it's like a theme park, you go just for the emotion and experience same with marvel movies, it's just for the emotion of being in the theater with other persons cheering for a cameo or screaming for something that is epic that's why many directors say it, it's getting a bit tired of this movies, personally, i do like them, but i also feel tired of having these movies just being pure fan service
Scorsese is right, the main problem with marvel (or Disney for that matter) is that films like these overshadow art house films. For example I went to see the French dispatch by Wes Anderson because I love Anderson. Thing is I couldn’t. The entire theater is full for Spider-Man NWH and I couldn’t see it. While I do love NWH and think it is a breath of fresh air for marvel it also saddens me that someone like Anderson got overshadowed by a marvel film which comes out every year. It also saddens me that those movies get the funding when compared to art house films. Studios like to pick the highest blockbuster compared to an emotional and thought provoking film. It’s oversaturation and the fact that marvel makes and releases a movie every year solidifies that. It’s like Call Of duty releasing a game every year, it dominates sales and overshadows great games. I think that Scorsese is more worried about the fact that marvel films will eventually take over theaters and the films that made him love movies in general most likely won’t be played in theaters. It’s those films that made Scorsese love “CINEMA” that’s why he doesn’t consider marvel “CINEMA” he can respect the effort put into it but it just isn’t what it is and later on in a couple years it will never ever be what it was before. And one last thing I think that it’s sad that with the constant release of MCU films to the public that great films like Dune (2021) people won’t like it. I see a constant complaint about Dune that it was too confusing for them and that it didn’t explain it well to them. Instead of well…. Using their minds and looking more into the film like everyone should.
"Everything, Everywhere, All at once" is an Incredible Film that uses Multiverse concepts with an Emotional Family Drama at the Center, Want a Break from Marvel and Dc? Go watch it 😁
He was right. All the fucking fanboys and celebrities not wanting their cash cow to be killed off went after him, but Scorsese was 100% right about the movie equivalent of junk food.
I think a big part of what Martin Scorsese is talking about though is how difficult it is to get other movies that aren't action movies into the movie theater. Rom-coms and teen movies are basically pushed straight to streaming and regular dramas get lost in the shuffle if they're not guaranteed to make 700 million dollars or more. I think more of his criticism is directors who are kind of getting frustrated with the fact that their movies will never get the theater experience. I don't think if movies like Castaway, The Fugitive, Gangs of New York, or Philadelphia got released today they would have the theater presence they did way back when they were released. I just don't get the feeling that he's saying it's bad they exist, I took it as him saying it's more the effect that their presence has on the success rate of other movies.
I feel that it's rather silly to say that one type of cinema can be judged as objectively better or worse than another. Different types of movies have different goals, what matters most is whether or not the movie succeeds at accomplishing its intended goal. One can look at a movie like "Citizen Kane" and recognize it as a masterpiece, but that doesn't mean that another movie that is completely different can't also be a masterpiece in it's own field, like "Dumb and Dumber" for example. If one were to judge Citizen Kane by the same standards as Dumb and Dumber, the conclusion would be that Citizen Kane is a terrible movie. Likewise if one does the opposite. But both movies can be recognized as excellent if they are judged by standards that are appropriate for their respective genres. Obviously, if one has a specific preference in the types of stories and effects they want from movies, that would inform their choice of which movies they would rather watch, and which they would enjoy and value more. But saying that one genre is inherently better than another simply due to one's own personal preferences is like arguing that pizza is inherently worse than steak simply based on one's own preference for steak.
Yeah, you are saying this as if Scorsese doesn't understand that. The problem he addressed , If you were talking about Scorsese, is that the theatres are flooded with theme park movies , them being good or bad is not relevant. What's relevant is the seats. Smaller movies of different type must be supported and also new filmmakers. And Disney owns 40 percent of the market. If consumers take one kind of movie and very rarely another - they will judge the minority by majority.
@@CATDHD id risk going to a movie I'd know I'd enjoy on the bigger screen than some tear jerker/dug addicted / oh remember coorperations are bad every day life movie during a pandemic. We want to escape , we want a joy ride or shared experience but bigger. I can watch poets at hone alone when I feel to
@@CATDHD but Scorsese isn't small filmmaker, he's big name and as guilty of overshadowing small movie makers as blockbasters, because whole thing is based on turning "clout" into cash for industry. And yes, Disney owns 40 percent of the market, which should be called out, but instead Scorsese turned it into promo campaign for Irishman and "fight for cinema".
Coppola calling Marvel movies “despicable” is rich, coming from a guy who still owes the world an apology for whacking a reincarnation love plot into Dracula and still having the nerve to call it “Bram Stoker’s Dracula” knowing full well Stoker neither wrote nor endorsed any such nonsense in his book. ...one day I’ll stop being mad at that 😂
I like Coppola Dracula (mainly for Lucy cause she was pretty iconic and Gary Oldman’s wardrobe and performance) That was a really jarring departure from the source material. I don’t it’s weirdly more melodramatic and a bit-as-good-Anne Rice lovestory sidetrack of the story Bram Stoker told.
@@Nightman221k I can agree with that, to be honest I actually DO like the movie. My main issue with it is that it should have been called “Francis Ford Coppola’s Dracula,” since the title effectively makes it seem like Bram Stoker intended for those added-in plot points. Costume design, performance, and filmmaking techniques are all generally good, I would say. My only issue with the movie overall is the addition of that plot thread, which if left out, would have left us with possibly the most accurate page-to-screen adaptation of the source.
It's so tempting to come fully to the defense of a property you love (hence The Discourse). This, on the other hand, is a great, really fair look that engages with all sides of the argument. Nice!
There's just one thing I can say about this controversy: I'm done with the Marvel movies. "I've seen that movie", to quote Jordan Peele. I've seen the Marvel movie. I don't need another Marvel movie, I won't watch another Marvel movie. From my point of view, they can dissolve their company and start doing something else now.
The quippy sameness of the dialogue was what made Thor Ragnarok such a chore for me to watch. Every character was snarky and irreverent and had a modern glib adlib sounding dialogue. When everyone is the way it makes it impossible for me to put any gravity onto the things going on.
As a big Marvel fan, who has read a lot of comic books, watched all the MCU movies, and all the MCU shows, before they were de-canonized, I would say that Scorsese's description is pretty apt. The movies have more in common with theme park rides than the types of movies he considers to be "cinema." It may be arguable, but I think that point at least is valid. Are many of them structurally and thematically too samey? Sure. But in even the most shallow viewing of a sample like Winter Soldier, Civil War, Black Panther, Infinity War, and then No Way Home, you can see that there are clearly pretty big differences in theme, character exploration, and overall feeling to all of those movies. Are they the most subtle, character-focused? No. Are they for everyone, including "distinguishing cinephiles"? Maybe not. Do they still represent a tapestry of the many different aspects of the trials and tribulations of humanity? I think so. In the same way that the thrill of a theme park is different than the thrill of a meeting someone new, or the thrill of an actual life-threatening event, there's room for all of it.
Well said; I mentioned somewhere on here that cinema offers not a single defining experience but a whole range of them - and there's no harm in enjoying all it offers, though we would benefit from bolstering a _diversity_ of stories and voices.
@@ana-isabel Agreed.Also,when we talk about diversity(and I mean it in EVERY sense of the word),I find it ironic that people like Martin Scorsese and Jennifer Aniston have been speaking out against Super Hero films when neither one of them have ever really been involved with diverse material,themselves. For years,Friends had been roundly criticized for lacking racial and ethnic diversity(despite being set in New York Ciy,one of the most ethnically and culturally diverse cities in the world) and Martin Scorsese,to my knowledge,has never made a film outside of Kundun, centered around a non-white protagonist(to be clear,I actually don't have a problem with that and if he writes about what he knows and what his vision and understanding of the world is like similar to how David Lynch and Woody Allen does it and like how the author Nicholas Sparks does and like how John Hughes did it,then fine but it is something that needs to be talked about and pointed out). Whereas,not only has Marvel made diverse films and shows,they've really given a great platform for talented actors of color(and they've had movies and shows fronted by female characters). Could anyone imagine Martin Scorsese making a movie like Captain Marvel or Black Panther or Shang Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings? I know that I sure can't. Scorsese is entitled to his opinion but what he is not entitled to,is his own facts. If he doesn't like Super Hero movies and shows,that's perfectly fine and he has every right to his own opinion but what he doesn't get to do is to tell other people what they should or shouldn't define as cinema FOR THEMSELVES and what he also doesn't get to do,is to tell people what they should or shouldn't like. Personally,I could care less what Scorsese thinks about Super Hero movies but what I didn't particularly like was the way that he phrased his discontent with the Super Hero genre. Like Samuel L.Jackson said,not everybody likes Scorsese's stuff,either and that's fine,right? It's okay for people in a free and democratic society to like and dislike whatever they want to.If Scorsese were more open-minded,what he could have said about the Super Hero genre is what Billy Joel said about modern day music on the pop charts and that was that just because he doesn't like something or understand something,it doesn't mean that it's trash or not legitimately music,all that it means is that it just isn't for him.
My only problem with that he said is that I feel the theme park description is right but I don't think it's "not cinema". I just think it's s different type of cinema. And that's ok. We should have a lot of different types of cinema!
Really, it's not superhero fatigue. Its genre fatigue. Silent movies > film noirs > westerns > spy/syfy > action > teen/horror > superhero/disaster > ??? I'm excited to see what the next film fad will be
I am starting to get some superhero fatigue. Like everyone was asking if I'd seen the new Hawkeye TV show and I just did not care. YET I saw the last Spiderman movie twice in theaters. At this point it's more like I have my few fave characters and that's it. I loved wandavision so much I have to see Universe of Madness because she's in it. But I still haven't seen Loki and I don't care lol
Yeah, I skipped out on Hawkeye altogether. Loki was fine, and I liked how it explored some interesting time-space concepts; but somehow it still had that same MCU "blandness" to me. I do agree with you on Wandavision and No Way Home though - went in with zero expectations and both were just such a nice change of pace from the usual formula. The Moon Knight series is pretty interesting from what I've seen so far though, if you've got room to check out a new Marvel character :)
There is only a cinema theatre where I live; I need to travel at least an hour, usually 90 minutes, to visit a different one. The last movie I watched in the one closer to home was Anton Cobijn's Control, from 2008. Ever since, no movie other than blockbusters has been shown there. And this is not a small, independent theatre, no; it belongs to the biggest franchise in Mexico, it has around 12 rooms, it can show 12 different movies at the same time, but it usually shows only four or five. If I want to see a movie I am interested in, I have to travel 60 or 90 minutes. That's my problem with Marvel and mainstream movies. I just don't like them (I've watched a few, at home, with family, so I know I don't like them), but I have no other choice here.
I think this is exactly what Martin fears; a sort of "monopoly" that these kind of films can have on commercial theatres. It's a tricky situation because of course these cinemas are gonna need to make a buck to survive, and films like Marvel's are guaranteed money-makers. But it then fuels this vicious cycle of sticking to and spotlighting a limited selection of cinema, and with average theatregoers given little (or no) access to other types of movies, of course they're gonna seek/demand more of the former. 😕
@@ana-isabel Yeah, that's how I see it now. I wish both could co-exist, but I'm not optimistic. Even so, I got used to watch more movies at home, either on DVD or through streaming services (thanks, vpn!)
@@ana-isabel The problem is that the studios need a big opening weekend, and that means that true originality is finished for the big screen. Every property needs to pre-sold. It's going to be sequels and reboots from now on. I do think TV especially streaming services, has risen to the need. As someone pointed out, Even Scorcese is on Netflix now.
Anything good that is excessive can be bad or boring and that's my current opinion with superhero movies lately. Need to mix my taste up with different genres sometimes. I may start watching old movies soon. Though I watch movies way less than videogames since 2018 (the quarantine amplified it more) but that's a whole different story.
The “fatigue” is simply some people expressing wishful thinking because they want them gone where as most audiences still are invested when the films are actually good. Speaking of “actually good” I think you’re wrong about the Marc Webb Spider-Man movies. They are good and get too much undeserved hate. It’s why I held off on them and now that I’ve seen them Andrew’s take as the character is my favorite one.
Thanks for your opinions but don't pretend they're anything other than that. She's entitled to her views same as you, so don't pretend you hold the monopoly on subjective experiences.
@@ShirleyTimple I never “pretended” that my opinions were more than just opinions. I’m just saying that fandom opinion writes off the Webb directed movies despite them having elements that were really good.
@@Nightman221k you literally corrected her opinion and inserted yours as objective truth. That's fine that you think differently about certain spiderman movies, but she's also entitled to her views without being labeled "wrong"
Thanks for another amazing video essay Ana! Loving the longer form content and appreciate all the hard work that you put into this one! In terms of the MCU, I'm glad they're allowing their writers and directors to play around with the "marvel formula" in their streaming shows such as a Wandavision, Loki, Moon Knight etc. I feel like for every big superhero movie that follows the same conventions we also end up getting a solid genre deconstructing show like The Boys, Invincible or the new Young Justice season. Always found it interesting how superhero fatigue and "real cinema" has always been discussed as a hard line in the sand when really we're always changing our moods on what we consume. Sometimes you want that hand crafted, locally sourced burger and other times you just really want a quarter pounder with cheese from McDonalds haha Killing it again with the content Ana 👏👏👏
I get where Scorsese is coming from, but I strongly disagree with him on several points. I think part of what he's getting at when he talks about a lack of "emotional danger" in superhero films is the all-too-common lack of a believable climactic choice for the protagonist(s). We KNOW Scott Lang is going to shrink beyond the atomic level to save his daughter at the end of Ant-Man because that's just what superheroes do, so we're not surprised when it happens. Compare that to Taxi Driver, where we have no idea how Bickle will respond to the climactic choice he faces because each path he could take comes with all sorts of practical consequences and moral implications for a person in his particular mental state. Because of this, I tend to view superhero/action films more like spectator sports than "pure" storytelling like Taxi Driver, Parasite, 2001: A Space Odyssey, etc. All that being said, I kind of love the MCU more than perhaps I should, and the tradition of seeing MCU films in theaters was a huge part of how I got into movies in general and now have an AMC A-List membership, which I have used to go see tons of smaller films like Lamb, The Green Knight, Last Night In Soho and so on. There are occasionally films that I'm not able to see in theaters because their theatrical runs are too limited, like Everything Everywhere All At Once, ironically, but you can bet I'll be streaming it as soon as I have the chance. As for the relative "same-ness" of the MCU, it's definitely something I think they need to combat moving forward, as the need for a big, climactic action scene in every. single. story. has dragged down some recent projects like Eternals and, to lesser degrees, the various TV series. The quippy dialogue doesn't bother me most of the time if only because I myself tend to cope with difficulty and extreme circumstances through entirely inappropriate humor, but I do think they should be more selective (and consistent) about which characters they use for comic relief and which they don't. I also think that a single line of dialogue in Loki, a strange director cameo in Endgame and one gay kiss in Eternals is piss-poor queer representation for a franchise that's nearly thirty films and half a dozen series into its run. Maybe T:LAT will push further in that regard. Either way, I doubt I would've ended up watching films like Handsome Devil or Saving Face if not for the MCU, so calling it a "cultural genocide" seems laughable imo, even if maybe, kinda sorta, its films aren't exactly what one (admittedly genius) film snob like Scorsese means when he uses the word "cinema." Also the comparison to serialized television hadn't fully occurred to me in regards to how we think about tonal cohesion across films, and insights like that are one of the main reasons I watch this channel (I also like the costumes).
Thank you for the thoughtful comment! You make a ton of great points and I can't say I disagree with any of them. Hit the nail on the head with the familiarity we now have of typical superhero cliches, which can sometimes rob these movies of "genuine emotional danger" (as Scorsese puts it). And I haven't seen Eternals, but from what I've heard - even the action sequences were apparently forgettable. On that note, I do think that adds to the "samey" feel the MCU can sometimes have; as thrilling as they are to watch in the moment, I have to admit that a lot of their action sequences do blend in with one another in hindsight (with some exceptions I guess). Though, this may have more to do with the fact that the actual directors aren't actually given control over these scenes, at least from what I've read. And I honestly can't agree more with the franchise's passive progressivisms, it's really lame to see them patting themselves on the back for what essentially seem like afterthought attempts at queer representation. I guess it's better than nothing, but eh. All this said, the MCU also played a key role in my love for movies and active presence at the theatre. :D It probably wasn't my direct gateway to arthouse/indie pictures, but it's there on the pipeline haha. I also absolutely need to check out Everything Everywhere All At Once when I can, thank you for reminding me! 🤩
I think there's a big discrepancy in how these films are portrayed, and it's clear people just don't watch them. I want to look at Ant-Man since you brought it up. A lot of people will look at it and say it's hero vs villain. Through that lens, it's easy to pick apart the film and say it doesn't hit any emotional peaks. But that would be wrong. The film isn't about a hero versus a villain, it's about a man wanting to be more involved in his daughter's life. The emotional danger isn't him needing to rescue his daughter from the villain, but whether or not his actions will lead to him being allowed to see his daughter. Throughout the film, he's pushed away from his daughter, so he does what he can so he can get closer to her. But his actions are misguided and lead to her being in danger. Eternals, on the other hand, doesn't do a good job with emotional danger, or impact. But that's not because it's a superhero film, that's because it's not a good film.
@@rhuntern You make a good point about Ant-Man, but I still think the outcome of the story is, to a degree, predetermined, because a dour ending where Scott never gets to see his daughter again would be jarringly inconsistent with the tone of the film up to that point. In that way, superhero films almost function like the romance genre, where the predetermined outcome is more or less a genre requirement, depending on who you ask. Now don't get me wrong; I love a good romance, but I do think they benefit when their formulas are shaken up a bit (as in a few films this very channel has recommended). But there's another problem, which I think results from many modern writers having decided that action automatically equals plot. In my view, action CAN advance a story's plot, but the only types of events that do so automatically or inherently are definitive decisions being made; characters, groups or natural forces entering or leaving the story; and new pieces of information being revealed. Consider how most fight choreography is basically just violent dancing. Would you care about a film centered on a dance competition if the protagonist's arc didn't intersect in any way with that competition or any of the other contestants, and where the protagonist made no significant decisions and learned no pieces of information while they were dancing? Would anyone care about something like Dancing With The Stars if it was overtly fictional? Compare that to a film like Silver Linings Playbook, where we care greatly about the climactic dance contest because we know the protagonists' ultimate decisions will be impacted by its outcome---whereas, in the average superhero film, the action becomes less about advancing the plot and more of a surface-level stylistic choice because, no matter what happens, superheroes are gonna superhero. But again, don't take this as me insulting the genre; I really enjoy the MCU (even Ant-Man, which makes up for with effective comedy what it lacks in stakes) and I'm currently loving Moon Knight, whose main protagonist(s?) has consistently had to make choices before, after and even during the action scenes and who falls far enough outside the traditional hero mold that it's actually difficult to pin down exactly what he's going to do in any given situation. Now let's see if the writers can keep it going for three more episodes.
Yeah... any themes in the MCU get overshadowed by the quippy comedic dialogue. It's unnatural. And I would say the MCU is damaging to cinema overall since this style of dialogue has leaked into franchises that it has no place in, just look at the new Predator movie or the "your mama" joke in The Last Jedi.
Honestly I like “knowing” what is going to happen. I couldn’t stand the tension in ‘The Departed’ and had to turn it off. I don’t know if it’s my PTSD or if it’s a personality thing, because I’ve always been the type to spoil the ending for myself in books….but I can tell that’s just a personal choice.
Martin was stating the narrative structure is basically the same throughout each franchise . Not story but the same format e.i hero's journey. Rise ,conflict ,climax ,positive outcome.
I sympathize with Scorsese because cinema is definitely a different experience from superhero films and for him, you see less work of his peers making it to theaters and the kinds of movies that gave you broad experiences. People aren't going to theaters to see unfamiliar stories, with characters they've never seen, with experimentation of its approach like we used to. This isn't to say superhero films are solely to blame. People like big movie spectacle and always have. Look at the 90's and the boom of bigger than life movies that came from Jurassic Park. Major production companies always look toward what is driving people to the theater. But you can still have untold stories wrapped in that. With superhero films it is so hard to not have "hero experiences hardship, overcomes hardship, saves day" storyline. One way or the other, you know what you get when you go see a superhero movie. Having said all that. I love both but even I'm getting bored with superhero film after superhero film. It makes you wonder what kind of movies could be made in their place by these production companies and what other films you missed when they were grabbing your attention.
As someone who also loves both and will probably still watch whatever new thing Marvel puts out (unless reviews drive me otherwise), I definitely still get this. Sadly yeah, major studios will naturally just stick to whatever is profitable - and unfortunately the cash cows they've stuck to (i.e. remakes, reboots, and superhero films) don't make for many "untold stories". I adore a lot of Marvel and DC's stuff and even then I think a good chunk of their narratives can blend in with one another. That said (I think I mentioned this in another comment) I do think superheroes on TV have been getting a little more creative lately. I particularly love The Boys and Invincible - those two kinda turn a lot of familiar genre tropes and cliches on their head. Regardless, that's the realm of TV; we can still do better with cinema and movie theatres in showcasing new stories, voices, and genres these days.
@@ana-isabel Completely agreed and I don't necessarily think superhero films don't have something to offer. Unbreakable (M. Night Shyamalan) is my favorite superhero movie of all time and it gets overlooked because it's not that traditionally what people expect from a superhero narrative. And that's just an example but I feel like other movies do commentary on superheroes and the story of the character isn't so much the focus as the message of the movie. I'd love to see more films like Unbreakable.
One point I haven't seen is that a small character-driven drama works perfectly fine on TV. But a big effects movie is different on a huge silver screen.
Going to a Marvel movie and expecting an exploration of human experience is like going to McD's and hoping for a fancy dinner. I waited till Endgame came out and saw all the movies, but I couldn't recall the story of 25% of them if it depended on my life. Not trying to be snob or something, that is my experience. That's when I checked out. Even RedLetterMedia, my go-to movie channel, just stopped featuring them and it's literally their job. I'll never understand why they hire great directors and tell them to basically do the same movie.
If you saw all the movies in such shirt time span how will you remember everything.Its well over 25 movies you have to remember. Your fault on being late to the franchise
If you think all the marvrl movies are the same,than that's very ingenuine because it's not true.Its a very shallow lazy form of critique. Just because they are Superhero movies with a structured formula doesn't mean they are the same.Its like saying all the gangster movies of Scircese are the same.
@@diannajennings266 I mean i think it can be a valid criticism. Though I enjoyed many of the films in phase 1 or 2, a lot of them feel like retreads. I love Doctor Strange, but his arc is SO similar to that of Tony Stark’s in so many ways. I also think that the corporate nature of Disney waters down some of the issues and themes the films attempts to address and does kinda box in the director. I think Marvel is doing a lot better job of giving their directors a little more freedom now, but we lost the chance to see Marvel films by directors like Patty Jenkins and Edgar Wright because Disney was over concerned with setup. AoS, in my opinion, is the worst Avengers film because it concerns itself too much with setup. Films like Black Panther and Thor Ragnarok address ideas of colonialism, repatriation, and imperialism, but they do so in a very watered down and inconsequential way. Thor Ragnarok really loses that focus past the second act. I love these movies, but they are not perfect, and I tend to agree they can’t really do everything that non-commercialized films can. But, the same goes for vice versa.
@@Maxops500 That's because with all honesty Avengers was the beginning of the end. Iron Man, Captian America and Hulk are solid solo pieces. The Spidey movies all good because it's really hard to mess up Spider-Man. Yet when it came to the other movies mainly Thor oh man they sucked. Winter Soldier was the Apex of the MCU for a lot of people because it was that damn good.
@@ExeErdna I actually kinda disagree with you. While Iron Man 1 and Captain America were great, I really think the MCU didn’t really find its footing until phase 3 or 4. I think the MCU films have been good overall, though they are still highly standardized, and don’t really have any nuanced themes or messages, due to corporate meddling.
Big props Ana this was very well put together and presented. I love how articulate you are! You see both sides although your fan hood is showing and you're cool with that ,and that's cool with me 😁
The 80s and early 90s was saturated with movies about cops or vigilantes fighting or shooting a bunch of bad guys. The vigilantes were usually former cops or soldiers. From the thirties through the early 70s there was an obsession with westerns.
As someone that never hopped on the superhero bandwagon, I've been tired of this trend since it's inception. A creatively bankrupt industry stumbles upon a seemingly endless trove of other people's work and decides that looks mighty profitable. No thanks, I'm done supporting people trying to cash in on the hard work of others. It's no different with the constant LotR content being rehashed over and over again. I'm so bored of the rings at this point, no amount of hype will convince me to watch yet another adaptation. Tell an original story for once and that will get my attention.
@@JayGriffinblaze who said anything about Scorsese? I never mentioned him once. His comments may have started this discussion, yet not once did i hold him up as an example of how to do things. Don't put words in my mouth
Superhero fatigue is currently a myth. Sure some people are tired of them but that can be said for any genre of movie. True 'insert genre' fatigue would result in a rapid decline in consumption and production of that type of movie much like the YA movies experienced a few years back. Ultimately its supply and demand, and some people are just salty that the films they demand arent desired by enough people to guarantee a large supply. If people didnt want to see superhero films, they would stop making them due to the revenue not justifying the cost.
Agreed - as much as many may now be tired of the genre's saturation, average theatregoers are still turning up to these in overwhelming numbers. I mean, despite the awful reviews Morbius got, apparently it still topped the box office 🤷🏻♀️ That said, it'd be interesting to see how well the genre fares in the next few years - particularly with Marvel. While I personally feel like the hype isn't the same post-Endgame, their branching out to serialized TV has been pretty interesting.
@@ana-isabel I think marvel has perfected their formula to the point they could keep going for many years to come. Maybe not as strong as the past as people inevitably get bored of things they like + new competing trends (my moneys on the anime live action becoming the next big boom once someone perfects the formula), but the past 14 years has shown the mcu still has strong legs with its latest film spiderman NWH making 1.9B at the box office. The hype decrease is hard to measure as post endgame, all the movies except spiderman FFH were affected by a covid world in 2021 where many still didnt want to go to the cinemas. I feel If the genre does take a massive decline in popularity i think it will be due to leeches like sony and WB trying to ride the coat tales of the mcu and failing, which is how we get travesties like venom, morbius and whatever the dceu is calling itself nowadays. Those are the moves that cause audiences to lose confidence in the genre and lead to its decline. As someone who prefers TV over Film, i welcome the mcu embracing the format as it just means rather than 6 hours of content (people complain about the mcu being over saturated but it has only had like 6 hours of content a year for the past decade), it will have closer to 26 hours of content a year (which which may become too oversaturated but no-one is being forced to watch these things)
I do enjoy the Marvel movies of previous phases, but this most recent one does seem like a conveyor belt of bland action pieces lately. I've already forgotten most of Multiverse of Madness.
If you're not a fan of the genre, I respect that. The notion that everyone is sick of superhero movies or that they aren't cinema when the entire world disagrees with you renders you unqualified as an expert. *Superhero fatigue is bull ish, what we are fatigued with is studio executive interference, cynical corporate cashgrabs, and trend chasing* If you don't know or don't care about the intellectual property you plan to make a movie or television show out of, you are unqualified to adapt that property and the quality will render your adaptation a failure.
I've never understood where this fatigue comes from for a general audience. I've always just watched what I was interested and skipped the rest like I do with comics.
I basically stopped watching Marvel movies after Avengers (a few here and there based on critical and personal acclaim), but I'm still undergoing the fatigue. Just because I'm not watching them doesn't change the mammoth presence they have in popular culture right now. I have no desire to watch the new Spider-Man, and I haven't actively sought out anything about it, but I know a ton about it because it's unavoidable. Obviously everyone is going to have different reactions, and I am genuinely happy for people who find happiness at whatever level they engage in, but I feel it's important to note that the fatigue comes not just from watching the movies, but from their omnipresence in the cultural landscape overall.
A lot of people used to watch every marvel movie wether they’re good or bad because they were building to something bigger. Now that it’s finally over, there’s not much reason to watch the bad ones. That’s why black widow was marvels first flop. Then all those Disney+ shows that were at best mediocre and just don’t have enough interest and hype.
@@kylevernon So basically Comics… no one reads all the comics. They just read the once that interest them. Happily there are enough of them that if you have any interest at all in the genre you should be able to find something that works for you. Also, it’s a little silly to imply that Black Widow being the first MCU movie released during a global pandemic had nothing to do with why it flopped.
@@imissimeem I guess I just have a hard time understanding how someone else’s enjoyment of something would give you fatigue. There are many things in our culture that are widely beloved and thus omnipresent that I don’t personally care about (i.e. Friends, The Office, The Simpsons, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones.) They may not be my cup of tea, but clearly many others enjoy them and I’m not going to resent or shut down others enjoyment just because I didn’t feel the same.
While it's true that I can just not watch the superhero movies, I still can't avoid them. Every time I turn around I'm being punched in the face with ads and merch and posts and posters and billboards and they're splashed all over the streaming services. I can't even walk down the cereal aisle without Wonder Woman jumping out of a bowl of cheerios. I'm usually of the opinion that you should let people enjoy what they enjoy, but I really wish companies would stop b*tch-slapping me with superheroes from dawn to dusk.
One thing I will say that “fatigues” me is that the movies are NOT easy to just rewatch for specific characters. I watched WandaVision and was fascinated by the character of Wanda Maximoff even though I never really thought much of her before WandaVision and wanted to watch the earlier parts with her… not exactly a great pursuit when I have to watch movies where she’s a side characters that had only a handful of scenes. So it feels like this hyper universe-focus does diminish the fun of a franchise where the focus is on one character primarily like how the actually good superhero movies like the good pre-cinematic universe Spider-Man, Batman, and Superman movies were.
Yeah, I totally get this. It's hard for me to get family and friends into the MCU for the first time when it's this huge sort of cinematic commitment. Or they check out a crossover movie out of curiosity and I have to fill them in on previous plotlines, character arcs, etc. (I saw No Way Home with my mom the first time I saw it, and having seen none of the previous Tom Holland or Andrew Garfield films, the references or emotional beats were kinda lost on her.) So yeah, the downside to cinematic universes is having to "do your homework" to fully understand most films - which can become a burden to newcomers, putting them off movies they may have otherwise been interested in.
@@ana-isabel What I found hard was having to recall things from the earlier movies where Wanda was a secondary character. I sort of forgot about her accidental destruction and casualties from it during Civil War and a few things about her origin from her first appearance and having to rewatch a film that isn't really "about" her to do my homework to watch a series about her was kind of something I just forgot I needed to do. It makes it harder than just watching a movie like rewatching the first movie before its sequel.
While I agree with Scorsese’s greater point about the atmosphere in the industry right now, what really gets to me is the specific comparison to theme parks. I’m a huge theme park fan, and if you talk to any of my friends then they will tell you that I’m basically a walking encyclopedia of Disney World and Universal (the big ones in America). And it’s not because I necessarily like the companies that make them (I LARGELY disagree with so many things they do). It’s because there’s so much rich history and emotion poured into these experiences by the people who create them, despite the fact that they largely go uncredited for their work. Hell, the amount of detail that goes into these parks is arguably more akin to an interactive art museum than a rollercoaster at your local county fair. So, comparing Marvel movies to theme parks as a way to discredit them as “not cinema” is inherently an oxymoron to me. I feel just as much emotion and storytelling walking through the Tower of Terror lobby as I do watching a scene from Ladybird.
This is so interesting and something I never considered - thanks for sharing! The comparison is a pretty flawed/dismissive one now that you put it that way. I'm not a huge theme park expert but I do love my Disneylands and your description of them as well thought-out, interactive museums is wholly accurate - it's actually an artform that doesn't get enough credit itself. I guess if Scorsese was specifically talking about fairs and such, it'd be a closer comparison.
"A comically booding edgelord...Snyder". I'd take that over shitty and less charming versions of 80s cartoons. This whole mandate that characters are "boring" because they don't crack jokes is why MCU humor is so bad. MCU movies feel like they were made for people with low attention spans but then again I have a low attention span and I find them insulting. I don't think Snyder's movies are great but an antagonistic attutitudes like this is why the DCEU is such a mess. WB made Josstice League which emulated the MCU and no one liked it except for hardcore Snyder haters and now you have a movie universe that is a complete and utter mess. It's funny to me, you seem to be quite the DC fan and know a lot about DC comics but when it comes to Marvel you don't know nearly as much. And that is who the MCU appeals to, they appeal to people who don't know anything about Marvel and since so much of Marvel's heroes outside of F4, X-Men, Hulk and Spider-Man are not super well known, it is easier to make a well produced shallow adaptation of lesser known Marvel characters and get away with the bs, unlike Superman and Batman. The MCU just feels like a big budget parody of Marvel comics. If Disney wanted to make that, then they sure are convincing. Besides that, the MCU isn't even well planned at all, Thanos was only in the first Avengers because Whedon liked the character, which is why he never does ANYTHING and we just see his face for 5 seconds for every movie before Infinity War. The MCU is the first to do it, not because it was good. If you want to compare the MCU to a TV show, then it's a shit one.
As a film student, I'll say this: We all love a greatly emotional movie with deep themes that is (mostly) untainted by the big hollywood schemes of the greatest enterprises. However, we wouldn't have some of the best cultural pieces without the comercial stuff. I mean, I too hate the blandness of Michael Bay movies, but without em, we wouldn't have the (now really old) meme of people randomly running with Linkin park music and fake explosions behind them at full blast. In general, it's all about balance. How could we live peacefully if all the movies we've got were deeply-emotional and reflective? We'd be anxious, thinking of the sadness of life all the time. And, if we didn't have some "brain-off, popcorn-on" movies, we wouldn't be able to feel so happy and excited when a truly magnificent piece of cinema is in front of us. Furthermore, no one can say what is and isn't art. Movies are art and, if there is an emotion behind it, no matter how bland it might seem for you or I, it is still valid as art.
I've been reading comic books for a very long time. I'm always elated whenever they make one of these movies. It's as if the characters I've been reading about leapt off the page. To be perfectly honest, I feel like I really don't want any of these to end. Fatigue or not.
You're a self described fan of comics. Of course YOU like these films because YOU are invested in the characters. Not everyone is into comics, though. Very few people are,on a per capita basis. So the fact that the entire industry is pumping out franchise after franchise that only a small portion of the population is actually invested in means the industry will eventually doom itself. This very video is a symptom of the fact.
@@adrianvelante8014 not at all, you do you. Just don't be surprised when the bottom falls out of the comic book film industry, because it won't be around forever. Game of Thrones was a cultural powerhouse for a decade until it just wasn't.
@@ShirleyTimple Yes. Very few people actually read comics, but the fact that these movies continue to make so much money means that it’s not just comic book fans that are invested in these characters and stories.
If Disney was willing to step out of their comfort zone with some of the Marvel shows, that would be great. So far we keep getting the same thing on Disney Plus. Despite Wanda vision, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, and Loki all having different settings and characters, the similar tone and lack of anything ground breaking made them kinda boring. Wanda vision was promising at first, but then developed into the same boring sludge. I haven't seen Hawkeye, and I don't intend to. If they could make a show like Daredevil, that would be awesome. Maybe it could help if they leaned a little more into setting a different tone for each show, giving the heroes more well defined and stronger powers. Deal with themes other than just family, and finding people to like you. And get some actual threatening, well characterized villains!
So true - out of the three you've mentioned I loved Wandavision the most, but I absolutely agree that it was its strongest during the first few eps... right before it settled back into its usual safe, spy-action-thriller tricks (still really enjoyed it overall, but I wish it doubled-down on how weird it was in the beginning). Loki had fun stuff going for it but I don't know - I felt like it never pushed the strange ideas it had far enough? And F&TWS was average imo; had interesting themes but its execution had that bland coat of paint typical of the MCU's most forgettable. All this said though - the new Moon Knight series has promising direction (though I've yet to catch up on the second ep, so fingers crossed 🤞)
i would ad that some of the MCU characters get changed in ways that are unrecognisable to long time fans of the character. like peter parker had his character excedingly nerfed and religated to a toney stark fan boy for the mcu. it took them how many films to get wandas powers right and make her not the mcu trying to have jeen grey in it while fox still owned the rights to the character.
I just came to respond to the title. I have no fatigue of superheroes. I'm seeing stuff in live action that I dreamed about as a kid and never imagined I'd see. Bring it on.
Marvel action sequences can feel very formulaic, they are apparently outside the Director's control anyway. There is a fair bit of variety outside the action.
@@simontmn ahh yes, sorry about that! It happened with another comment - seems like TH-cam Studio glitched up when I was responding to people 😅 I agree with you though, Marvel's fight scenes have a level of samey-ness to them; and with them taking up a good chunk of each movie, the films can sometimes feel like they blend in with one another. Directors _apparently_ don't get as much control with the action sequences, at least from the accounts of a select few.
@@ana-isabel Thanks Ana! Yes I've seen the Directors comment how they are basically taken out of the room for the fight scenes. So any distinctiveness must come from the talky parts. I think this can sometimes be harmful, eg Black Widow would have worked better if the action scenes more resembled a James Bond film, rather than the standard Marvel feel.
The Marvel movies are getting old. They're not about the heroes anymore let alone the story. It's a cash grab because they know most people will go and see it.
Marvel films (as is all fantastical genre movies) are 90% spectacle and 10% substance/character driven, where is none blockbuster type movies such as those made by Scorsese and his ilk and 100% substance/character driven stories. I enjoy both, but would rather live in a world without spectacle movies than character driven ones.
I'll be honest, a lot of the MCU fits that theme park argument. Not very cinematic, nor inspired. I'd be interested to hear Scorcese's opinion on the DCEU
This all reminds me of ubisoft open world games and fatigue of some gamers for the 'formula'. In focusing on surface appearance the substance beneath is neglected... Goethe's prelude in the theatre for Faust examines this relationship between poet, producer, and performer.
Iron man 2 is widely considered in the bottom 5 of marvels 27 films and some consider it the worst so if you checked out after that one you missed out on the greatest over arcing story cinema has ever produced. We all have gaps in our movie viewing. Mine is the Harry Potter series. I know at some point I have to watch these movies and will probably love them but for me it has never peaked my interest. Just letting you know that the mcu really does go from good to great to fantastic.
Wow, you give up on things like super easy. There’s key movies you could have watched instead. Iron Man 1 and 2 are probably the least important and weren’t part of the big picture yet since was before Disney bought Marvel. Sad you won’t ever get to experience WandaVision or Infinity War or even Loki as they were meant to be. I had my parents watch all important films. My mom did not want to watch them but enjoyed every one I showed her and built such a strong feeling that by the time we got to WandaVision she was crying from love of these characters and was absolutely heartbroken at the end of Infinity War. You give up super easy. Lame.
I very much lost interest after ultron, there just wasn't enough to keep me invested. But I do see the positives of such a subject becoming popular, what it's done to blur the line between 'normie' and 'nerd' and just overall making more stereotypical 'nerd' subjects more acceptable. I do have an issue with limiting creativity for the sake of money, which is exactly what ended up happening. As well what it's done to the vfx industry, there seriously needs to be a union of some kind as it still isn't as respected as actors or writers. Plus the lengths taken to the point where the actors don't know who their acting with, for what scene or movie, and not knowing until release is redonk.
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Thought's on Scorsese's takes? (...and is Morbius really as bad as they say lmfao for some reason I had my hopes up but jokes on me I guess) 💀
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He's Martin Scorsese, he can say whatever he wants. That said, I really want people to stop asking these stupid questions.
Who cares? Honestly, as much as I love superhero movies, I cannot wait for a new trend for Hollywood to exploit. I hope it's fairies and folklore.
I haven't seen Morbius but that in part because i just want Sony to give up the ghost and in part because i dont like Leto in soup films. He just feels forced at this point, like how Will Smiths kids keep ending up in films they dont really belong in. Ikd I just didnt feel all that intrigued by Morbius.
I saw it and we enjoyed it, but it's insane that that's the final cut and they had three years to get it right. I give it a 6.5/10 which is probably generous, but I did actually enjoy it. It's fine. Just go in with low expectations if you can.
Also Scorcese sounds like an old man shouting at the clouds. Art comes in all different forms and they all have merit even if he doesn't fully understand them. Should we pan modern art museums because they're full of pieces which in no way resemble classic styles? Absolutely not.
Morbius is the worst kind of bad unfortunately 🙁 it’s painfully dull
Growing up in the 90's, I remember the theater lineup being action thrillers, hard sci-fi, Farrelly Brothers comedies, romantic comedies, slasher films, historical dramas, Disney animated films, and the rare appearance of superhero films. I love superhero films, and I still watch them, but I also kinda miss some of the other genres. They're not gone entirely, but there's a lot fewer of them.
Are you blaming Marvel movies for that? Is Marvel Studios not suppose to be successful at what it's doing?
@@dramafreelyfe I don't blame the superhero films. The financers decide what projects get funded. And lately, they're favoring a very safe bet with the superhero films.
@@willverschneider1102 They have ALWAYS favored the safe bet. That's why the movies you mentioned were what you saw in the 90's.
I also think the past two years have coloured your view. Not a lot was released.
Increased competition (high quality Television, Internet, Video Games, higher amount of movies released) have created a tougher field, especially for mid-budget movies. To chance of being financially viable with a 50 million dollar movie (i.e. with marketing having to make at least 100 million dollars) is much smaller than it was before. We therefore mostly see two kinds of movies these days: the big blockbusters (where the spectacle creates a lot of hype for a lot of people) and low budget movies (where a large box office is thus not as necesseary and can allow more risk-taking).
Due to the large competition, even with both of these approaches a success is not given. Even if you look at the recent Disney live-action releases that aren't sequels or part of a larger universe (e.g. The Nutcracker and the Four Realms, A Wrinkle in Time), these movies were far from being a box-office success and most likely meant a loss to the film studio ...
@@SilortheBlade Of course, difference is, in 90s for some blockbusters they actually made good scripts and made an effort to be good. Now it is factory like production. Star Wars, super hero movies are not special anymore
My bigger issue with the "cinematic universe" approach is that the business and schedule imperatives of the franchise prevent directors and writers from taking time to find their voice.
Captain Marvel was handled by former indie directors not used to studio imperatives and you can tell the movie kinda found its proper voice, form and feel halfway through the shooting. It could have been a much better movie if they had been given more time but there was no way Marvel would wait and reshoot some scenes or change the script when the movie had to fit in between so many other releases to make sure End War made sense.
Same thing with Solo: the original directors were kicked out because their script and filming schedule and tone would not fit the mold of Disney’s grand plan.
I think that’s where Scorcese’s criticism is justified. The real issue isn’t the cape, it’s the calendar.
It's Funny Scorcese later said "he didn't mean Marvel movies,he meant superhero movies" on Camera. But nobody cares to report about this.
He also said these films should should not crowd out filmskers like Thomas Anderson but Anderson himself have said he is a big fan of the MCU and he went to Endgame five times just to experience the theatre moment with the crowd..
It's also funny that everyone forgot about how much Scorcese was opposed to the introduction of blockbuster movies like Jaws when it first arrived because they cost too much money and cinema shouldn't be about money.
It's also funny that he claimed Netflix was the dead of Cinema when it came out but shortly later made a very very expensive Netflix movie himself....lol
Have ever heard of the Madea cinematic universe?
It's the cape as well. Superheroes suck.
From a certain perspective, while art is about expression, eating while being an artist is about pleasing the patron and getting paid. It has always been unfair. The 1970's through the 1990's were just a good combination of economics and technical capability. In the early days the studios cranked out all kinds of schlock to provide enough entertainment. Now with high costs, the franchise is better. It is also worth noting that individual vision without an eye for integration can nearly kill a studio (see new Star Wars trilogy).
@@diannajennings266 "It's also funny that everyone forgot about how much Scorcese was opposed to the introduction of blockbuster movies like Jaws when it first arrived because they cost too much money and cinema shouldn't be about money."
That's absolutely untrue. Just check the SPIELBERG documentary.
"In one of the doc’s most delightful moments, Spielberg and Martin Scorsese both recount how when Jaws first swam into theaters, Scorsese suggested they take a little drive. The rumor around Hollywood was that Jaws might sink rather than swim. “The word around town was that Jaws was a folly, and that it was going to be a disaster,” Scorsese says. But Spielberg and Scorsese hopped in a car and drove from theater to theater in Los Angeles and saw massive, blockbusting lines that stretched for miles, all waiting to see Jaws. It was proof that Jaws was going to be a monster-sized hit, and that Spielberg was about to become a huge director."
I think Scorseses key issue with the modern superhero movies aren't the movies themself. He doesn't like them personally and doesn't consider them cinema but respects the effort and work put into it and is happy people enjoy it. He just doesn't like Blockbusters, even in the 80s he never did, yet was still friends with Lucas and Spielberg, the 2 leading directors who made Blockbusters huge.
What Scorsese is actually concerned about is that the market is oversatuated and that studios don't want to take any risks anymore and want to fund smaller riskier films because producing a franchise is just a safer bet. Before the MCU studios were willing to support smaller and riskier Films as well as Blockbusters, which is just not happening today. So young, unsuccessful Filmmakers can't get funding for their ideas unless they align with what is bankable and so creativity for individual ideas get harder and harder to make. So that is definetly a big issue and I think it is great and respectable of him to point that out and it is proven that he is right in that regard. Major Studios don't produce smaller, independent, A24 like films and so the risk of a one-sided Film market is there.
I have to add, this is a really well put and interesting video even if I don't agree with you a 100%, it is always well funded and reasoned. Great job!
I think you nailed Scorcese's point of view. And yeah as much as I like superheroes I also miss comedies, sci-fi, suspense and other movie genres. The other day I saw "The Seven-Ups" (1973) and totally enjoyed it. The director was the producer for "Bullitt" & "The French Connection." I miss those kind of movies.
I agree at last with that movies ae taking less riks, Hell even studios and popcorn movies.
Alo i miss weird movies that arent franchise related, or at least if they are , that they can e anything, regarding movie franchises, i respect xmen th most, becaue as messy at it is, they do go political, they go weird Do whatever.
And dc aproach is better from a storytelling perspective to do whatever really, even if i dont like snyder and eeh itsvry his and mid,but the identity of the movies i definitly thre even in the worst. Thats crativity. I just think for better and worse, dc movie just are more memorable and better as movies generally. If yeah very hit or miss. An even nyder said thing clear in the voice even if i dont like him being wriong there about supes so much. Its an identity still.
i like blade runner but thats 2 movuies to compare,which are great but not enough to qualify
And james guns movies are great as exception.
I think you nailed it
While I still like the MCU overall, I really can't stand how it's popularity really accelerated this "Whedonification" of pop culture. Stories seem almost afraid of being sincere or being labeled as pretentious if they "take themselves seriously", as was seen with how people acted all confused about Dune and other such films.
Wait, there were people who disliked Dune 'cause it didn't drop enough jokes?? 😳
But yes - while I do think that Whedon-esque quippiness has its place in some stories/genres, forcing it makes for the worst kind of "humor". Personally, one of the biggest non-superhero offenders to come to mind in recent times is "Free Guy" (though I find most Ryan Reynolds movies to be guilty of this tbh).
I totally third this. It's gotten so distracting and annoying. Some characters don't need quips. It's called character.
@@ana-isabel Legit, when Dune came out people were TORN because they expected the movie to explain everything to them from the get-go due to being so MCU-ised and thought it was too serious due to a lack of quips and jokes.
@@lanagievski1540 those people were a very small minority.
@@lanagievski1540 So we gonna blame Marvel's success for everything wrong under the sun. Come on.
Tis why The Batman felt like a breath of fresh air for me. It actually feels like a cinematic experience-- feels like it belongs in the realm of what Scorcese defines as cinema. On top of that it's a film that stands on its own, in the midst of these cinematic universes.
That being said, I'm optimistic for Marvel going forward-- with the psychological aspects of Moon Knight and the horror elements of the next Dr. Strange movie, we may be in for a more unique MCU. Hoping this doesn't age poorly
Fingers crossed! I've got high hopes for Moon Knight and the Doctor Strange sequel. Totally agree with you on The Batman too, love the Fincher-esque personality they injected into it. (And you don't have to know much about the characters beforehand to enjoy it either!)
This.
They could've easily called it "the Greatest Detective". I agree, it was an excellent movie.
welp moon knight turned out to be another generic marvel thing
@@thebasedgodmax1163 lol strong disagree it's really good and doing its own thing
dang you're right about the CONSTANT SNARK. it's literally every character now, even in the shows. But as you mentioned, it's obvious that the producers saw the success of it from a decade ago and just wanted to maintain the same appeal... and we're left with the results.
It takes me out of the movie when someone in a life or death situation has the wherewithal to crack a joke
@@stringer2295 Marble movies be like:
AHHHHH MY ARM JUST GOT CUT OFFF
They don't make em like they used to.
@@badconnection4383 🤣🤣🤣🤣 exactly
Agreed. Someone needs to tell them, yes, we already know u are actors, and that this isnt real. U dont have to remind us constantly and if they dont take it seriously, whats the point then? Then just say u are making action comedies, which MCU is, at this point
@@worlddd7777 actiom comedies are better anyways i dont care about the overdone sameyness
I’ll admit I’ve had superhero fatigue pretty much since Endgame, but I can’t imagine calling basically an entire film genre “poison” or abjectly harmful to cinema.
I think its more a problem of studios who are already risk averse seeing the almost guaranteed profits with superhero movies creating an environment where movies which are too different (but could be very good/creative/unusual) are deemed too risky - why would we take a risk on this when we know Avengers 11 will make the $$$$! This mentality will invariably prevent potentially wonderful creations from seeing the light of day. So it's less about superhero's and more about capitalism... I suppose.
EDIT: This can also be applied to the seemingly endless reboots of previously successful franchises vs taking a risk on something new.
The problem is now they're betting on something they're getting bit by more often. People that might not be the majority are disliking remakes more and more. To them the people that aren't "watching / paying for it" see what they're investing is still a sure fire way to make an easy billion. That ain't working no more.
For me this is deja vu all over again, as Yogi Berra once famously said. I heard the same argument against Spielberg and Lucas way back in the '80's when they were making their blockbuster Star Wars and Indiana Jones franchises.
But only Disney can make Avengers 11. Everyone in the world who isn't Disney is going to have to make something else.
The reason why every big screen movie is now a sequel or a reboot is because studios deal with theaters says that they get most of the box office from the first week of release. For this reason, the opening weekend is all important to the studio. Every property must have its audience right away. There's no time for word of mouth, or for finding an audience anymore. Marvel didn't create this situation, it just exploits it better than most. You're not going to see new concepts from studios anymore. You haven't seen it in years. Everything new is on television. The damage has already been done.
Genre fatigue doesn't exist.
Fatigue of the same story, same tropes, same plots, same characters again and again, exists.
I wonder what will happen if marvel makes movies of the pulp heroes they have.
What happens is that a lot of studios have pulp heroes and they don't do anything, basically they are the princess bride and pirates of the caribbean with more powers.
And what you say is real, but the average public doesn't read tv tropes, they prefer tabloid headlines.
@@joseloayza502 Yes. There is a lot of wasted potential. Marvel is actually proof, since the MCU originated from less known characters, because they didn't have the most popular ones back then.
The Shadow and The Phantom are especially weird as they are more famous than Iron Man but their movies came out at the wrong time with the wrong narrative.
The shadow is Dr.Strange with guns that is simpler than that. Dr.Strange was not known until 2016.
Yeah, marvel just reuses the same story all over again, and it hasn’t yielded them anything above mediocre status, i hope this boring universe dies soon
the point is that marvel at least uses it
No D ''Batman'' C comics or all other companies, they have DRACULA and they don't do anything.
I don't have superhero fatigue. My fate was sealed after Wandavision.
Thing is, I pick and choose what I like- I like the shows and Shang chi, but not into Eternals. I still have not seen NWH.
I avoid fatigue by going by my own pace and desire and not the marketing.
Which is a smart and actually intelligent way to go. I love the MCU but Eternals sucked. All the comments here saying “I gave up years ago/they’re all exactly the same/there’s no stakes/there’s no emotional scars from what has happened”…. My answer to that is have you even seen WandaVision?? That show was incredible. I cried the first time and cried the second time watching again with my parents. It’s such an absolutely beautiful exploration of grief and love.
Also No Way Home was great. A lot of fun but it did make me cry in the theater around half way through. Where Infinity War and End Game were the climax and celebration of 10 years of intertwining movies and characters, No Way Home is a celebration of the SpiderMan franchise(s) we’ve had over the past 20 years.. and a very strong road forward.
Well said and I feel exactly the same way.
I'm not fatigued on Super Herp Hero movies and nor am I worried about the dreaded ''Super Hero fatigue''.
I believe that the Super Hero genre will be around for many more years to come and that it isn't going anywhere.
As long as the material is unique,new and different,the genre will be fine.
People can forget how diverse and eclectic comic books are,so too,it's exactly the same thing with movies based on them.
Also,I know that we're talking about Super Heroes but not all comic books are even about Super Heroes!
So too,not all movies based on comics have to be about Super Heroes.
Most people in the general audience wouldn't know that movies like Ghost World, A History Of Violence,Road To Perdition and 300(to name a few)were based on comic books unless someone told them them or unless they found out about it after the fact.
@@JR-ju3kj A history of violence is an adaptation? Huh. Cool.
Anyway, yes, in the superhero genre alone it's quite diverse and weird. I mean, look at X-Men and fantastic four. Hopefully the movies and/or tv will get that vibe. Besides legion that is.
@@katherinealvarez9216 That's right,A History Of Violence is an adaptation of a comic book.
And so is The Crow,The Mask,Time Cop,Tank Girl,Barb Wire,Men In Black,American Splendor,V For Vendetta,Red,
Oblivion,Josie And The Pussycats,From Hell,Cowboys And Aliens,2 Guns,the 2014 Hercules movie with Dwayne Johnson,Kingsman:The Secret Service,Edge Of Tomorrow and much more!
So again,comic book movies are much more broad in their subject matter than most people would think and they can be about more than just Super Heroes.
@@katherinealvarez9216 yes, and a road to perdition with Tom Hanks, and a LOT of others. Funny thing is, the ones you don't think of as being comic book movies are often not thought of as such because they aren't superhero comics, and believe it or not, a lot of the better ones aren't published by the big two publishers. (meaning a lot like hellboy, 300, Road to perdition, etc. are actually published by Dark Horse, Image, Valiant, etc... OR, they might be DC's lesser recognized and now defunct Vertigo line... Like 100 bullets, The Human Target, etc..)
Still think the current marvel movies are shit. >.>
(had to get that in there, I'm all for more of these comics getting adapted though).
In my experience, all of my friends who claim to have superhero fatigue are also the same people who refuse to watch indie movies when I recommend them. I feel like that's probably true for most people as well. People will complain, but then not give new things a chance.
I find that a lot of the stuff under A24 tend to strike a good balance between the more experimental/arthouse-y filmmaking and commercial appeal; perhaps try and recommend some popular films from there :)
@@ana-isabel I've been trying to get them to watch the Lighthouse and Eight Grade for ages. I just think it's not meant to be sadly lol
@@ana-isabel how is the amazing spider-man 1 a “trashfire”?
It’s kind of funny to me that the MCU has taken one of the most creative mediums and turned it into a watered down, basic, bland, and mediocre movie series. It’s honestly impressive how they have managed to suck all of the life and joy out of something so simple
It’s gonna become too big and bloated and it will fade into irrelevancy
@@sentientmustache8360 people have been saying that same thing for literal decades now and yet, no fading any time soon.
@@sentientmustache8360 This comment had been stated for superheroes movies for 15+ years already
I’ve stopped watching Marvel movies after Eternals. I never never want to watch the “Loki” show. Because i feel like it will slaughter Loki’s character!
@@fangirldreamer748 it didn’t slaughter him
Superhero movies aren't the problem. They're an easy target, considering how huge and how many there are, but the *real* problem was Titanic. With an unreal production budget for its time, it set a new template for filmmaking: huge budgets = huge box office earnings and critical acclaim. The success of The Lord of the Rings demonstrated how this approach could be used to generate escalating box office revenue with sequels. It worked for The Matrix, for Pirates, blockbusters could be procedurally generated via financial algorithm. Superhero movies are simply best suited for these economics and predictably perform well. The shared universe approach even means that interest won't start to wane after a finished trilogy.
At the same time, home video is getting progressively better *and* cheaper. The Middle Class can safely afford their own home theater, and this means more people are fine with watching something in the comfort of their living rooms unless the movie is something of an event or presents a sense of scale that one's home simply cannot replicate. Most people would agree with Martin Scorsese on what constitutes fine cinema, but most audiences are fine with watching it on Netflix, especially if there is a Plague going on, even *without* having 7.2 channels and a 75" screen.
Superhero movies aren't killing cinema. Oversized production budgets are.
The snark is so incredibly tiring and just makes all movies feel and sound exactly the same. At this point, the only difference between them is their superpower. Someone like Spiderman is supposed to be quippy, that's his character, but since everyone else is ultra-quippy too he loses his character. It's like they're deathly afraid that viewers will lose interest if they don't constantly make snarky jokes, like dangling a keyring in front of a baby.
Chases after keys...
Give me my quips! Must have!!
RIGHT? I swear it got to a point where everyone started sounding like Tony Stark, and it's become such a staple that I just go in expecting it now. Which is why - as far as Marvel movies go - I find (most of) the X-Men movies First Class onwards to be nice breath of fresh air; they don't have to over-rely on the schtick.
I also find it a bit funny that the movie with three Spider-Men somehow managed to avoid being overly quippy and actually maintained dramatic tension in the scenes where it mattered most.
It even bled into Star Wars. Like let an dark and or emotional moment happen just don't pick one or two to not poison with the bad jokes. My biggest example is ep8 when Finn was about to sacrifce himself to safe the base. They turned that whole moment in to a slapstick comedy bit about "safe yourself" yet that wasn't the point.
I'm torn in how I feel about this; on one hand, I don't like the elitist undertones of some of the criticisms- the idea of some things being 'real cinema' while others aren't really rubs me the wrong way, I always hate the language of *'real* [art form]' in general. I don't think superhero movies are a lesser concept/genre, and like... even if all they are is fun (and that's not necessarily the case) there's still room for that, sometimes art can just be *fun* and people aren't wrong for enjoying things that aren't that deep. And even though I'm not part of this myself because I'm not really a fan of Marvel movies, I definitely get that the excitement and community of the thing that you love being this phenomenon that everyone's keeping up with must be really fun, and more overarching, long-term storytelling can be really effective and rewarding.
But on the other hand, I really agree with some of the criticisms as well. The whole phenomenon of the MCU and general reliance on big franchise movies doesn't sit right with me at all either. Other people could and have put it into words better than I can, but it feels so... heavily commercial, I guess? Like. They've found a couple things that work, that are reliably profitable, and so that's what's getting made or at least getting noticed. I don't like so much of the landscape of movies being under one umbrella, coming from one place and a place with so much power at that. And I don't want what these movies are like to become an *expectation,* a *standard* for what movies in general *should* be like.
I guess basically my beef is more with capitalism than superhero movies. There's room for all kinds of movies, and the concern I have is big-budget franchise stuff *not* leaving room for others to thrive.
I think you hit the nail on the head; both criticisms from both sides can be true at the same time. And while there's room for both types of pictures on the table (and should be imo), the challenge is continuing to spotlight a wide range of stories, ideas, and industry voices, rather than sticking to a very limited few just because it's profitable.
Sadly, it's definitely difficult to achieve because as you said... capitalism - but maybe, with the help of streaming services, social media, and creative forms of distribution (i.e. the on-demand model Paranormal Activity used), helping general audiences see all the other types of film experiences cinema has to offer, it's not impossible.
It isn't Capitalism you gotta remember there's a difference from the free market which is what Capitalism is and Corporatism. Corprations like Disney is basically a Monopoly, a "Mega Corp" to some. Due to them having so much control an clearly working with their "rivals". It's easy to for them to warp the free market to punish those trying to stand with them. Even a bit after Iron Man we had some movie diversity where everybody got some shine and people talked about other pieces. Yet now it's either Marvel or anime. Even typical Disney movies don't get talked about unless there's some drama behind it.
So if you want quality you need elitism or you're not gonna get something worth your money. What I realised there's an elitist that can back up their words and those that claim to be elite yet cannot hang. If they can back up their words they've truly earned the right to be elite. Yet being elite they do not have the right to gatekeep/sabotage the market in their favor. Since if there's only one set of truly elite when they're gone they're gone. Nobody was properly raised to take their place. Which can be good and bad.
I agree with you. Art for art's sake..I used to be a marvel fan (average) because earlier their stories appealed to me, they used to be fun and unpredictable (I guess because I was quite young) but these days, especially after infinity war, they have become too predictable and their script is simply bland. They have been relying heavily on cgi and star cast imo (like you said things that work and are reliably profitable). I went to theatres for nwh and was utterly disappointed because somewhere I knew Peter would win and it would be a happy ending for the most part, there might be some damage here and there but that was it.
@@ExeErdna "It isn't capitalism" Dude. Free market inevitably leads to a few corporations taking over.
@@sophitiaofhyrule Which is an ebb and flow to how the market works because without the CLEAR corruptive nature people have, plus with laziness. That whole aspect seems smart. People working with people to meet the same goals? If it was only that consistent, too often we let people destroy what we love because we love it too much. That's corpo rot right there, wonder why things changed up that didn't need to? Or why do they keep pushing one thing? It's all connected.
Regarding character stakes, it really bothers me when people act like death is the only thing that can bring stakes to a character's journey. Stakes can be raised in all sorts of ways, from permanent injuries, lessons learned along the way, emotional scars, etc. Just because you know they aren't going to die doesn't mean there's no risk.
Did you watch WandaVision? I think that deals with exactly what you’re looking for as far as all the other ways you listed. Like, in every way you listed.
@@ryanb4940
I did but it really sucks how they treated Wanda like she was the wronged party at the end, "They'll never know what you sacrificed", when she was controlling a whole town like meatpuppets.
Great show but one or two lines changed there would have been so much better.
I mean yes that is true but the mcu doesn’t have that either, BP got thrown off a waterfall and he was fine, Bucky fell off a train and he was fine, Wanda’s a little upset but she’ll be fine, Tony was being hurt by his arc reactor but he was fine.
The issue is that none of these so called stakes actually affect anything in the story because in the end everything will be fine so who really cares
@@PenitusVox ya that was my biggest gripe with the show and what made me cringe with her line in the Dr Strange trailer. The amount of people that defend her as being in the right is confusing, as she was literally holding people against their will and making them act out a fake life to help her deal with her own emotions.
I've been a Marvel fan since the beginning. I go to avant-premieres, I have merch, I read comics, etc.
Whenever someone involved with the MCU displays their discontent with Scorsese specifically and this debate in general, I feel like never paying for a ticket to watch one of the things ever again.
You're under no real threat. You already own the market. Is that not enough? Why do you need everyone to genuflect and recognize your legitimacy?
I'll answer that last one myself: because you don't really feel as legitimate as you make it seem, do you? Somewhere deep down you fear that Marty's right and you're just a passing fad.
Marvel is McDonald's. I'll have it once a month, sure. I won't have it everyday.
Martin makes gangster movies not superhero movies they arent the same type he cant judge them the same way.
@@anteprs7908 Martin Scorsese can say whatever the fuck he wants about cinema
@@b1g_m00n true and ppl can critic him outside usa nobody knows him anyway .
@@anteprs7908 that's a lie. I live in the UK and most people I know, do know who Scorsese. When I also lived in Italy, many people knew who Scorsese is. Do you believe the people outside the USA don't watch his movies or what?
@@peterparker1707 italy will know him for sure he make italian gangster movies for uk maybe a argument but most ppl i know who he is isnt a argument to begin with .
Incredibly well made video - great job!
I think the quote from Natalie Portman at 11:04 summaries the problem: "I think there's room for all types of cinema."
The overwhelming popularity and saturation of 'superhero movies' has changed the landscape so much that many other 'types of cinema' aren't being made anymore.
Mid-budget (generally $15-$60 Million) movies that dominated the mid-90s and early 2000s are now seen as too risky for production companies (especially post-COVID) and so will only be financed if an established/powerful director is attached. Some outliers in that bracket (Knives Out, John Wick, American Hustle, Paddington 2) still managed to make a lot of money, which is awesome. But there are SO MANY genuinely good mid-budget movies from the last decade (e.g. Nice Guys, Last Night in Soho, Molly's Game) that barely made their money back.
And this means that unfortunately people just don't want to see these movies anymore. (Well yeah, some people clearly do, but not enough to make them financially justifiable) And therefore the studios won't make them.
So it's pretty stupid to "blame" superhero movies, or Marvel, for this change in the cinematic landscape, because it's really up to us. If people want the Shawshank Redemption's and Good Will Hunting's of the world to keep being made, then go watch some mid-budget movies instead of Iron Man 17 when you next go to the cinema. Or both! That's fine too.
I think it interesting that all these directors who object so strongly to the entire genre of superhero movies come from, or have at least dappled in, the world of gangster movies. A genre that has been accused of being “played out” or “overdone” since the 1920’s.
In fact by the 1970’s gangster films were so closely associated with the lowest common denominator movie-goer that Coppola only agreed to direct The Godfather for the paycheck, which he desperately needed after he and Lucas’s Indi passion project THX 1138 basically bankrupted them. He truly believed at the time that taking on a “trashy” gangster flick would be the end of his reputation as a “real” director. At least Coppola remains consistent in his outspoken disgust for anything he feels is beneath him.
the most true statement of all time
Damn, I actually never knew this about gangster movies! Thanks for the trivia; it's also interesting how Coppola went on to direct two more sequels for the Godfather despite his apparent disdain for the genre.
@Loki Jaxson is it superhero movies of an industry refusing to adapt? Because those movies are only making the money they do because people are going to see them. We are getting mad at these movies but somehow not the industry for trying to copy cat the formula. Which they always do, just this time the competition in the media landscape with streaming and alternative media is more intense then ever before
@@ana-isabel That might be like how Alan Moore dislikes Superheroes yet he made some of the most genre-defining works for them. Coppola disliking Gangster movies means he's gonna make it good to not shit on his name. Like "I'm sure as hell not gonna make a trash movie"
scorsese has directed five gangster movies if that from 1973 to 2019.
The reason there doesn't seem to be a burn out to comic book movies is because it's practically all that's coming out.
While I love superhero movies and love that nerdy things are finally mainstream unlike when I was growing up, as a quote on quote movie fan I can't help but agree with Scorsese. I'm getting pretty tired of superhero movies especially the mcu at this point especially when it comes to creative control and playing it too safe by not taking any storytelling risks. Even in its own genre superhero movies, which are supposed to be wild, zany, and imaginative have become stale and lazy. Unlike back when these movies were seen as risks they had to take chances to be noticed, there's no passion anymore. The lack of passion is what make many of them forgettable and that's a shame. You may not agree and that's cool but that's just the way I see it.
To be fair, I do think superheroes have seen a surge of creative stories in television lately - namely shows like The Boys, Invincible, Legion; and even the MCU ones like Wandavision and Moon Knight (only seen the first ep but it did leave an interesting enough impression).
If you haven't checked out The Boys or Invincible yet though, I do recommend them! :D Preacher (if it counts) is cool too.
@@ana-isabel Yeah I've heard good things about those shows and I do plan on watching them if and when I get around to them. It seems that more ballsy and creative swings are being done on TV. I'm just a little bummed about superhero (and generally big budget) movies not taking those swings as well. Thanks for the recommendations, I appreciate it.
@@nathanielstoll4533 This is true. I think being under mega corporations, and in attempting to please every demographic possible (to rake in those theatre tickets), most popular superhero movies these days tend to be a lot more sanitized. With streaming services, it seems creators can afford to push boundaries a lil more. Hope you enjoy the recos! :)
@@ana-isabel Invincible is a travesty of adaptation, I want to take it rights for Kirkman and give someone who actually cares. It is 90's and 00's edge with no actual mind of original.
As long as we can have movies like The Batman and Joker or TV shows like Daredevil...
Exactly.
As long as the material is quality,unique and different and as long as it brings something new and exciting to the the Super Hero genre,the Super Hero genre will be fine.
the batman inspired from Se7en and joker inspired from taxi driver and the king of comedy, good but aint original.
@@whysoserious652 no idea is original, quit being a buzzkill
@@demsocialistboi nO iDeA iS oRiGiNaL, get a brain clown.
I have been reading comic books four decades now. I'm tired of constant super hero tv and films being churned out I just wish film and comics were separated again. Too many problems have occurred.
agreed
My biggest problem with marvel is that they've proven that mediocrity sells and the exceptional doesn't. It physically hurts me.
This was proven years before Marvel movies... So many movies now deemed "cult" were failures in their time, some ended careers even entire studios. Popular movies are just that throughout history, they are rarely "exceptional"
@@RainyDayWolf True.
For me, it goes beyond superhero movies. A lot of blockbuster cinema, superheroes included, is big, loud, and kind of exhausting to sit through. I don't need my movies to swing in the exact opposite direction, but goddammit chill out. Lower the stakes a bit, bring down the runtime, make something that doesn't tie into an overarching plot that makes watching several other 160 minute movies mandatory for me to keep up.
I see marvel movies like I see my romance books.
I love romance and mystery books that some would consider “trashy” or “not real literature” but I enjoy them and the fact that I go into them knowing the couple will be together or they will discover the murderer or thief in the end is a comfort in a way. I know what I’m expecting is coming but I still enjoy it for the journey and how it will get to that ending.
MCU has slowly but surely evolved into a high budget CW superhero fest. Shallow to nonexistent character development, forced political propaganda and shiny visuals.
↑Martin Scorsese's burner account
Remember that one time Martin Scorsese voiced Sikes in Shark Tale? Pepridge Farm remembers 👀 Truly a top Teir film.
Yeah but every movie didn’t try to copy shark tale. Shark Tale didn’t have 4-5 movies a year. Flooding the market
@@Linklex7 But Sharktale did try to copy Shrek, with it's quirky side kick, celebrity actors, pop song inclusion, and dance party finale 👀 And failed miserably 😂
@@geo_licious also copying some Scorsese tropes.
This was a really great video that really delved into the discussion and didn't make it black and white. I have to say I think one aspect not touched upon is the different cultures of people like Scorsese / the film fan community that blends into the film industry and the movie going audience. Most people are working class, we only got so much money, and the stories and characters we want to see aren't always those in indie & not blockbuster films. As much as Scorses would want folks like me to watch Taxi Driver over say Black Panther, I'd watch Black Panther in a heart beat because its story - about the African diaspora & its conflict of its nation in how to best fit in the wider world & the personal struggle of King T'Challa - is what speaks to me. Not the story about a racist taxi driver appealing to white people & their need of edgy insane antiheroes.
Thanks! 🙏 To be fair I think there are a vast range of stories to be found in indie cinema, especially if you include the works of other countries. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that this side of cinema is probably better at supporting a more diverse range of voices along with unique directorial ideas. (However, you do make a point in that they're sadly not as accessible as commercial blockbusters.)
Of course, at the end of the day - we derive meaning from art or entertainment that speaks to us best. For many it could be a Marvel film, while plenty others might go for a Scorsese flick.
@@ana-isabel Yeah and there's a lot of indie film makers that do touch our cultural circles / the voices and POVs of minorities / non white people. But the different culture of consuming / viewing movies is still very clear and different from indie & wider releases. Even when an indie film is about entirely black, latino, asian, or other non white characters, those movies aren't being marketed to us working class folks of those backgrounds. It's to white people, to upper middle classers / & the wealthy. The people who have ridiculous privilege to enjoy watching movies at film festivals, to buy magazines, go to film school - its a whole other culture from me or the working class family that might go to the theaters less than five times a year cause it makes more sense to spend on groceries.
Sorry for the word dumping ^_^; I just think when it comes to talking about film, the films we watch, and the people that watch them, there's levels to the conversation and audience not considered much of the time.
I agree except I have to point out that Travis Bickle isn’t supposed to be appealing or an antihero. The audience isn’t supposed to identify with him at all
@@JurassicLion2049 I understand your point i just wanted to share that the Taxi Driver comment is wrong because it's antagonist is a bad person on purpose and wasn't meant to be connected with. That's why Scoerse (idk if i spelled that right) movies are considered art while blockbusters are just entertainment, art movies present to you uncomftorable things from the real world to make you aware of those things around you and to make you ponder about them, blockbusters are just meant to entertain you and they have safe stories to appeal to masses.
Also if you wanted that there are plenty of independent movies that broach those types of subject without having to make it safe and marketable for mainstream audiences like marvel did. Would a blockbuster that wasn’t marvel get made filling that void in an alternate universe? Maybe. The societal pressure would still be there, but it’s impossible to know and black panther is great, but nothing the Disney corporation puts out will ever be revolutionary in any sense of the word unless it’s a theme park ride
I used to be really excited for the MCU movies but I’ve been over it for years now. To me now they are a lot of cgi visual noise. I feel like the stakes aren’t very high in the movies either, you kinda know how it’s gonna play out even without knowing all the comic lore. I think comparing them to a theme park is accurate but I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Theme parks and fun and exciting they just aren’t for everyone.
That being said I understand why people are still really excited about them. It’s just not for me.
Completely agree
Yes! I'm so tired of CGI blah blah don't care. Enough of giant monsters. People versus people. That's where the drama and character are.
@@Thessalin 100% agree. I loved Shang Chi till we got that poorly lit giant dragon fight.
You’re like 100% wrong. MCU movies are great. Funny, fun, exciting. The stakes are through the roof if you watched till Infinity War. And WandaVision was a god damn masterpiece of television that explores grief in such an incredible way that by the time you realize it you’re so wrapped in the love of these two characters you cry that it had to end.
But sure over it for years is a smart take on it all. 🙄
@@ryanb4940 wow edge Lord. It's almost like no one else is allowed to have an opinion other than yours huh.
No Way Home was the point at which my Marvel fatigue overtook my ability to enjoy these movies. I knew in my head that the movie was great but my heart was just so sick of multiple variations on the same formula that I just couldn't enjoy
Sort of like if I ate pizza every day for a year. Sure I love pizza, and pizza is still great but after a while just, please can I eat some cereal or something PLEASE
This! No Way Home was enjoyable but it was simply two and a half hours of nostalgia bait and massive plot-holes
I think also a big part of the problem with superhero movies and more particularly Marvel movies is that they play very safe, from the moment you know a movie was made to fit a marketing mold, it was tested in different types of audiences, you know there won't be some kind of innovation.
I just saw the new Dr. Strange movie and I honestly think they could have taken a very different path and stood out, however they chose to be safe, Marvel needs an M-17 division for their adult fans, movies like deadpool have already shown that the superheroes is not only a thing for children and teens.
And also i do not agree with your point when you say that independent creators simply have to find more creative ways to survive and that you see that as "good", it is basically justifying the corporate bully that prevents all filmakers from having equal conditions.
But aside from all that i think this was a great video, it's so refreshing to see a middle opinion from a fan of the superheroe genre acknowledging their faults and their good points and i value that.
The fact that people consider films like scorese makes "arthouse" or "indie" means superhero films have already won. Large scale movies used to have substance but now the movies have gotten so large and expensive, that they have to appeal to everyone and films made for adults that used to be mainstream keep shrinking in budget and exhibition. it's not that superhero films are going to kill indies, it's that it already has killed the mid budget drama.
So MCU is basically set up for next movie that sets up next movie so that next movie can be set up so that we can wait for final act in Avengers 10 in 8 years time, so that new Avengers have 30 shows that set up for next 10 movies. And yes, lets have jokes every 3 minutes
Fight Club. Office Space. Star Wars Episode I: Phantom Menace and The Matrix ALL came out in the SAME YEAR of 1999.
I think this is your best video yet! Congrats on a great work! You mentioned something that stood out to me about these movies resemble tv in their episodic approach, it is funny because with streaming must series are just a single 10-hour story now. I just think that the line between tv and cinema is becoming more and more blurry.
Well put, and I do feel the line is increasingly blurring. The quality of high-budget TV show these days often rivals that of films now, not to mention the growing number of A-list actors taking on television projects (a lot of the HBO stuff comes to mind).
Glad you enjoyed the video! 🙏
Everything is not for everyone...period. The only thing we should say is that people should check out as much of what cinema has to offer as possible
The problem is when art is "factory made", lacking any unique personality or soul. This is the case in general, not just superhero movies(Marvel or otherwise).
I don't think I have rewatched any of the newer Marvel movies, nor do I see myself ever doing it.
I did enjoy Peacemaker and am currently watching Moon Knight, as it seems promising.
For the most part, if you saw the trailer, you pretty much know what's up, which also goes into how poorly trailers are made.
The trailers that basically show you the whole movie in less than 5 minutes? That isn't if they don't go crazy and have like 2-5 trailers for one movie.
I think I get what he means. Yeah I generally enjoy watching most Marvel movies, but outside of, "Hey was that scene where this happens so cool?!?" and the like. But other movies such as Fight Club, Tigerland, American History X, Menace II Society, A Clockwork Orange, and others I have had actual genuinely meaningful conversations about dealing with the themes and characters. I feel one is there to watch and have a good time, where the other is to watch and think.
This made me look back to previous conversations I've had with friends about the MCU, and I realized too that yeah - with the exception of Civil War, Black Panther and some of the Spiderman films, the main discussion points are often how "cool" a lot of the sequences look. That isn't to say they didn't have their interesting themes or commentary, it's just the former often overshadows fhe latter. (Funny enough this was how I sold Shang Chi to others - that it had some of the best action sequences I've seen from the MCU in a while.)
That said, of course those who've read the comics and typically have a deeper investment in the characters will often have more meaningful takes on them beyond how badass the movies make them look.
@@ana-isabel Brad Allen and Andy Chen who are alumni of the Jackie Chan stunt team worked on them. Its perhaps why
The whole cinematic universe concept has definitely gotten out of hand. That’s probably the worst thing the MCU brought to movies, in the sense that there have been so many copycats since then. This is coming from a years long MCU fan, mind you.
I love Scorsese’s work, and that of other top level directors too, at the same time. I think film history has repeatedly shown that there will always be room for both mainstream fare, and the more “artistic” cinema.
Like others here, I’m optimistic for the future of individual Marvel projects. Moon Knight is probably the most exciting and original thing from them in years.
I'm not necessarily feeling superhero fatigue as much as I am MCU fatigue specifically. Especially with the introduction of all of the Disney+ TV shows, I just don't have the time or the care to keep up with it all. That doesn't mean the movies/shows are bad though; I'm happy for everyone who is still watching and enjoying them. Personally I'm much more invested in what DC has been up to lately with their movies. Even if the DCEU has been a bit hit-or-miss, it feels refreshing compared to the sameness of the MCU
I feel this actually - despite its embarrassing flops I've always felt like DC's movies had a bit more creative edge to them; even among the films with subpar writing, they were at least _stylistically_ more memorable than most MCU films. Gunn's The Suicide Squad was pretty great, as was Peacemaker (despite some of the comedy falling flat imo).
Every MCU release feels as if they are written and directed by the same person
Thank you for an excellent, thoughtful, and good faith discussion! I definitely see Scorsese's critiques as valid arguments around franchise movie making and the challenges it puts on smaller filmmakers, but I really hated the gatekeeping "these aren't films I grew up with so they therefore aren't 'cinema'" language. It's the same argument that kept "genre" fiction on its own shelves, separate from "real literature." We've been dealing with franchise filmmaking since 1977, I would argue, and with "spectacle" filmmaking since the 1950's (when Panavision became the CG equivalent spectacle of that time period).
I love Martin Scorsese. I love his films. He's a genuis!
But sometimes I just want to watch Spiderman.
In the same way that I absolutely love (and have made much of my living with) Shakespeare, but also frequently read romance novels and cozy mysteries.
P.S, I absolutely love your content. 🥰
Great video!! I’m glad that, even as lover of marvel, we can still critique the franchise on the things that are making it formulaic.
Scorsese is right about that
they are more of a theme park
you don't really see the movie for actually wanting to see it, it's like a theme park, you go just for the emotion and experience
same with marvel movies, it's just for the emotion of being in the theater with other persons cheering for a cameo or screaming for something that is epic
that's why many directors say it, it's getting a bit tired of this movies,
personally, i do like them, but i also feel tired of having these movies just being pure fan service
Scorsese is right, the main problem with marvel (or Disney for that matter) is that films like these overshadow art house films.
For example I went to see the French dispatch by Wes Anderson because I love Anderson. Thing is I couldn’t. The entire theater is full for Spider-Man NWH and I couldn’t see it. While I do love NWH and think it is a breath of fresh air for marvel it also saddens me that someone like Anderson got overshadowed by a marvel film which comes out every year. It also saddens me that those movies get the funding when compared to art house films. Studios like to pick the highest blockbuster compared to an emotional and thought provoking film.
It’s oversaturation and the fact that marvel makes and releases a movie every year solidifies that. It’s like Call Of duty releasing a game every year, it dominates sales and overshadows great games.
I think that Scorsese is more worried about the fact that marvel films will eventually take over theaters and the films that made him love movies in general most likely won’t be played in theaters.
It’s those films that made Scorsese love “CINEMA” that’s why he doesn’t consider marvel “CINEMA” he can respect the effort put into it but it just isn’t what it is and later on in a couple years it will never ever be what it was before.
And one last thing I think that it’s sad that with the constant release of MCU films to the public that great films like Dune (2021) people won’t like it. I see a constant complaint about Dune that it was too confusing for them and that it didn’t explain it well to them. Instead of well…. Using their minds and looking more into the film like everyone should.
even though he said he didn't even watch the film's
"Everything, Everywhere, All at once" is an Incredible Film that uses Multiverse concepts with an Emotional Family Drama at the Center, Want a Break from Marvel and Dc? Go watch it 😁
He was right. All the fucking fanboys and celebrities not wanting their cash cow to be killed off went after him, but Scorsese was 100% right about the movie equivalent of junk food.
I'll take him seriously when he makes a movie that doesn't just repeat an old theme for the millionth time.
@@Dimetropteryx Oh. You mean, like superhero movies? Fuck off. Superhero movies, ESPECIALLY the Marvel ones, are samey garbage.
Scorsese just wanted to promote his another crime drama.
I think a big part of what Martin Scorsese is talking about though is how difficult it is to get other movies that aren't action movies into the movie theater. Rom-coms and teen movies are basically pushed straight to streaming and regular dramas get lost in the shuffle if they're not guaranteed to make 700 million dollars or more. I think more of his criticism is directors who are kind of getting frustrated with the fact that their movies will never get the theater experience. I don't think if movies like Castaway, The Fugitive, Gangs of New York, or Philadelphia got released today they would have the theater presence they did way back when they were released.
I just don't get the feeling that he's saying it's bad they exist, I took it as him saying it's more the effect that their presence has on the success rate of other movies.
I feel that it's rather silly to say that one type of cinema can be judged as objectively better or worse than another. Different types of movies have different goals, what matters most is whether or not the movie succeeds at accomplishing its intended goal. One can look at a movie like "Citizen Kane" and recognize it as a masterpiece, but that doesn't mean that another movie that is completely different can't also be a masterpiece in it's own field, like "Dumb and Dumber" for example.
If one were to judge Citizen Kane by the same standards as Dumb and Dumber, the conclusion would be that Citizen Kane is a terrible movie. Likewise if one does the opposite. But both movies can be recognized as excellent if they are judged by standards that are appropriate for their respective genres.
Obviously, if one has a specific preference in the types of stories and effects they want from movies, that would inform their choice of which movies they would rather watch, and which they would enjoy and value more. But saying that one genre is inherently better than another simply due to one's own personal preferences is like arguing that pizza is inherently worse than steak simply based on one's own preference for steak.
Yeah, you are saying this as if Scorsese doesn't understand that. The problem he addressed , If you were talking about Scorsese, is that the theatres are flooded with theme park movies , them being good or bad is not relevant. What's relevant is the seats. Smaller movies of different type must be supported and also new filmmakers. And Disney owns 40 percent of the market. If consumers take one kind of movie and very rarely another - they will judge the minority by majority.
100% right.
@@CATDHD id risk going to a movie I'd know I'd enjoy on the bigger screen than some tear jerker/dug addicted / oh remember coorperations are bad every day life movie during a pandemic. We want to escape , we want a joy ride or shared experience but bigger. I can watch poets at hone alone when I feel to
@@HeirOfGlee I think you are having a stroke
@@CATDHD but Scorsese isn't small filmmaker, he's big name and as guilty of overshadowing small movie makers as blockbasters, because whole thing is based on turning "clout" into cash for industry. And yes, Disney owns 40 percent of the market, which should be called out, but instead Scorsese turned it into promo campaign for Irishman and "fight for cinema".
Coppola calling Marvel movies “despicable” is rich, coming from a guy who still owes the world an apology for whacking a reincarnation love plot into Dracula and still having the nerve to call it “Bram Stoker’s Dracula” knowing full well Stoker neither wrote nor endorsed any such nonsense in his book.
...one day I’ll stop being mad at that 😂
I like Coppola Dracula (mainly for Lucy cause she was pretty iconic and Gary Oldman’s wardrobe and performance) That was a really jarring departure from the source material. I don’t it’s weirdly more melodramatic and a bit-as-good-Anne Rice lovestory sidetrack of the story Bram Stoker told.
@@Nightman221k I can agree with that, to be honest I actually DO like the movie. My main issue with it is that it should have been called “Francis Ford Coppola’s Dracula,” since the title effectively makes it seem like Bram Stoker intended for those added-in plot points.
Costume design, performance, and filmmaking techniques are all generally good, I would say. My only issue with the movie overall is the addition of that plot thread, which if left out, would have left us with possibly the most accurate page-to-screen adaptation of the source.
It's so tempting to come fully to the defense of a property you love (hence The Discourse). This, on the other hand, is a great, really fair look that engages with all sides of the argument. Nice!
There's just one thing I can say about this controversy: I'm done with the Marvel movies.
"I've seen that movie", to quote Jordan Peele. I've seen the Marvel movie. I don't need another Marvel movie, I won't watch another Marvel movie. From my point of view, they can dissolve their company and start doing something else now.
Okay?
The quippy sameness of the dialogue was what made Thor Ragnarok such a chore for me to watch. Every character was snarky and irreverent and had a modern glib adlib sounding dialogue. When everyone is the way it makes it impossible for me to put any gravity onto the things going on.
As a big Marvel fan, who has read a lot of comic books, watched all the MCU movies, and all the MCU shows, before they were de-canonized, I would say that Scorsese's description is pretty apt. The movies have more in common with theme park rides than the types of movies he considers to be "cinema." It may be arguable, but I think that point at least is valid. Are many of them structurally and thematically too samey? Sure. But in even the most shallow viewing of a sample like Winter Soldier, Civil War, Black Panther, Infinity War, and then No Way Home, you can see that there are clearly pretty big differences in theme, character exploration, and overall feeling to all of those movies. Are they the most subtle, character-focused? No. Are they for everyone, including "distinguishing cinephiles"? Maybe not. Do they still represent a tapestry of the many different aspects of the trials and tribulations of humanity? I think so. In the same way that the thrill of a theme park is different than the thrill of a meeting someone new, or the thrill of an actual life-threatening event, there's room for all of it.
Well said; I mentioned somewhere on here that cinema offers not a single defining experience but a whole range of them - and there's no harm in enjoying all it offers, though we would benefit from bolstering a _diversity_ of stories and voices.
@@ana-isabel Agreed.Also,when we talk about diversity(and I mean it in EVERY sense of the word),I find it ironic that people like Martin Scorsese and Jennifer Aniston have been speaking out against Super Hero films when neither one of them have ever really been involved with diverse material,themselves.
For years,Friends had been roundly criticized for lacking racial and ethnic diversity(despite being set in New York Ciy,one of the most ethnically and culturally diverse cities in the world)
and Martin Scorsese,to my knowledge,has never made a film outside of Kundun,
centered around a non-white protagonist(to be clear,I actually don't have a problem with that and if he writes about what he knows and what his vision and understanding of the world is like similar to how David Lynch and Woody Allen does it and like how the author Nicholas Sparks does and like how John Hughes did it,then fine but it is something that needs to be talked about and pointed out).
Whereas,not only has Marvel made diverse films and shows,they've really given a great platform for talented actors of color(and they've had movies and shows fronted by female characters).
Could anyone imagine Martin Scorsese making a movie like Captain Marvel or Black Panther or Shang Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings? I know that I sure can't.
Scorsese is entitled to his opinion but what he is not entitled to,is his own facts.
If he doesn't like Super Hero movies and shows,that's perfectly fine and he has every right to his own opinion but what he doesn't get to do is to tell other people what they should or shouldn't define as cinema FOR THEMSELVES and what he also doesn't get to do,is to tell people what they should or shouldn't like.
Personally,I could care less what Scorsese thinks about Super Hero movies but what I didn't particularly like was the way that he phrased his discontent with the Super Hero genre.
Like Samuel L.Jackson said,not everybody likes Scorsese's stuff,either and that's fine,right? It's okay for people in a free and democratic society to like and dislike whatever they want to.If Scorsese were more open-minded,what he could have said about the Super Hero genre is what Billy Joel said about modern day music on the pop charts and that was that just because he doesn't like something or understand something,it doesn't mean that it's trash or not legitimately music,all that it means is that it just isn't for him.
My only problem with that he said is that I feel the theme park description is right but I don't think it's "not cinema". I just think it's s different type of cinema. And that's ok. We should have a lot of different types of cinema!
Really, it's not superhero fatigue. Its genre fatigue. Silent movies > film noirs > westerns > spy/syfy > action > teen/horror > superhero/disaster > ???
I'm excited to see what the next film fad will be
I am starting to get some superhero fatigue. Like everyone was asking if I'd seen the new Hawkeye TV show and I just did not care. YET I saw the last Spiderman movie twice in theaters. At this point it's more like I have my few fave characters and that's it. I loved wandavision so much I have to see Universe of Madness because she's in it. But I still haven't seen Loki and I don't care lol
Yeah, I skipped out on Hawkeye altogether. Loki was fine, and I liked how it explored some interesting time-space concepts; but somehow it still had that same MCU "blandness" to me. I do agree with you on Wandavision and No Way Home though - went in with zero expectations and both were just such a nice change of pace from the usual formula.
The Moon Knight series is pretty interesting from what I've seen so far though, if you've got room to check out a new Marvel character :)
That's actually what it's like to follow the comics!
Not even watching this video I agree i am fatigued. I roll my eyes every time marvel pops up and never pay it any attention
There is only a cinema theatre where I live; I need to travel at least an hour, usually 90 minutes, to visit a different one. The last movie I watched in the one closer to home was Anton Cobijn's Control, from 2008. Ever since, no movie other than blockbusters has been shown there. And this is not a small, independent theatre, no; it belongs to the biggest franchise in Mexico, it has around 12 rooms, it can show 12 different movies at the same time, but it usually shows only four or five. If I want to see a movie I am interested in, I have to travel 60 or 90 minutes. That's my problem with Marvel and mainstream movies. I just don't like them (I've watched a few, at home, with family, so I know I don't like them), but I have no other choice here.
I think this is exactly what Martin fears; a sort of "monopoly" that these kind of films can have on commercial theatres. It's a tricky situation because of course these cinemas are gonna need to make a buck to survive, and films like Marvel's are guaranteed money-makers. But it then fuels this vicious cycle of sticking to and spotlighting a limited selection of cinema, and with average theatregoers given little (or no) access to other types of movies, of course they're gonna seek/demand more of the former. 😕
@@ana-isabel Yeah, that's how I see it now. I wish both could co-exist, but I'm not optimistic. Even so, I got used to watch more movies at home, either on DVD or through streaming services (thanks, vpn!)
So, you're blaming Marvel for its success? So, what exactly should Marvel movies do, bomb at the box office so you can see something different? Huh?
@@dramafreelyfe Ok. You miss the point.
@@ana-isabel The problem is that the studios need a big opening weekend, and that means that true originality is finished for the big screen. Every property needs to pre-sold. It's going to be sequels and reboots from now on. I do think TV especially streaming services, has risen to the need. As someone pointed out, Even Scorcese is on Netflix now.
Anything good that is excessive can be bad or boring and that's my current opinion with superhero movies lately. Need to mix my taste up with different genres sometimes. I may start watching old movies soon.
Though I watch movies way less than videogames since 2018 (the quarantine amplified it more) but that's a whole different story.
When you see Scorcese's comment in context, it's an off the cuff personal comment. Technically, it's ALL cinema. Scorcese knows this.
The “fatigue” is simply some people expressing wishful thinking because they want them gone where as most audiences still are invested when the films are actually good.
Speaking of “actually good” I think you’re wrong about the Marc Webb Spider-Man movies. They are good and get too much undeserved hate. It’s why I held off on them and now that I’ve seen them Andrew’s take as the character is my favorite one.
Thanks for your opinions but don't pretend they're anything other than that. She's entitled to her views same as you, so don't pretend you hold the monopoly on subjective experiences.
@@ShirleyTimple I never “pretended” that my opinions were more than just opinions. I’m just saying that fandom opinion writes off the Webb directed movies despite them having elements that were really good.
@@Nightman221k you literally corrected her opinion and inserted yours as objective truth. That's fine that you think differently about certain spiderman movies, but she's also entitled to her views without being labeled "wrong"
@@ShirleyTimple I just meant that writing it off as a objective garbage fire was kinda unfair. But this conversation is kind of getting old.
Marc Webb's Spider-Man movies have more depth and character development than entirety of the MCU
Thanks for another amazing video essay Ana! Loving the longer form content and appreciate all the hard work that you put into this one!
In terms of the MCU, I'm glad they're allowing their writers and directors to play around with the "marvel formula" in their streaming shows such as a Wandavision, Loki, Moon Knight etc. I feel like for every big superhero movie that follows the same conventions we also end up getting a solid genre deconstructing show like The Boys, Invincible or the new Young Justice season. Always found it interesting how superhero fatigue and "real cinema" has always been discussed as a hard line in the sand when really we're always changing our moods on what we consume.
Sometimes you want that hand crafted, locally sourced burger and other times you just really want a quarter pounder with cheese from McDonalds haha
Killing it again with the content Ana 👏👏👏
I get where Scorsese is coming from, but I strongly disagree with him on several points.
I think part of what he's getting at when he talks about a lack of "emotional danger" in superhero films is the all-too-common lack of a believable climactic choice for the protagonist(s). We KNOW Scott Lang is going to shrink beyond the atomic level to save his daughter at the end of Ant-Man because that's just what superheroes do, so we're not surprised when it happens. Compare that to Taxi Driver, where we have no idea how Bickle will respond to the climactic choice he faces because each path he could take comes with all sorts of practical consequences and moral implications for a person in his particular mental state. Because of this, I tend to view superhero/action films more like spectator sports than "pure" storytelling like Taxi Driver, Parasite, 2001: A Space Odyssey, etc.
All that being said, I kind of love the MCU more than perhaps I should, and the tradition of seeing MCU films in theaters was a huge part of how I got into movies in general and now have an AMC A-List membership, which I have used to go see tons of smaller films like Lamb, The Green Knight, Last Night In Soho and so on. There are occasionally films that I'm not able to see in theaters because their theatrical runs are too limited, like Everything Everywhere All At Once, ironically, but you can bet I'll be streaming it as soon as I have the chance.
As for the relative "same-ness" of the MCU, it's definitely something I think they need to combat moving forward, as the need for a big, climactic action scene in every. single. story. has dragged down some recent projects like Eternals and, to lesser degrees, the various TV series. The quippy dialogue doesn't bother me most of the time if only because I myself tend to cope with difficulty and extreme circumstances through entirely inappropriate humor, but I do think they should be more selective (and consistent) about which characters they use for comic relief and which they don't. I also think that a single line of dialogue in Loki, a strange director cameo in Endgame and one gay kiss in Eternals is piss-poor queer representation for a franchise that's nearly thirty films and half a dozen series into its run. Maybe T:LAT will push further in that regard. Either way, I doubt I would've ended up watching films like Handsome Devil or Saving Face if not for the MCU, so calling it a "cultural genocide" seems laughable imo, even if maybe, kinda sorta, its films aren't exactly what one (admittedly genius) film snob like Scorsese means when he uses the word "cinema."
Also the comparison to serialized television hadn't fully occurred to me in regards to how we think about tonal cohesion across films, and insights like that are one of the main reasons I watch this channel (I also like the costumes).
Thank you for the thoughtful comment! You make a ton of great points and I can't say I disagree with any of them. Hit the nail on the head with the familiarity we now have of typical superhero cliches, which can sometimes rob these movies of "genuine emotional danger" (as Scorsese puts it). And I haven't seen Eternals, but from what I've heard - even the action sequences were apparently forgettable.
On that note, I do think that adds to the "samey" feel the MCU can sometimes have; as thrilling as they are to watch in the moment, I have to admit that a lot of their action sequences do blend in with one another in hindsight (with some exceptions I guess). Though, this may have more to do with the fact that the actual directors aren't actually given control over these scenes, at least from what I've read.
And I honestly can't agree more with the franchise's passive progressivisms, it's really lame to see them patting themselves on the back for what essentially seem like afterthought attempts at queer representation. I guess it's better than nothing, but eh.
All this said, the MCU also played a key role in my love for movies and active presence at the theatre. :D It probably wasn't my direct gateway to arthouse/indie pictures, but it's there on the pipeline haha. I also absolutely need to check out Everything Everywhere All At Once when I can, thank you for reminding me! 🤩
I think there's a big discrepancy in how these films are portrayed, and it's clear people just don't watch them. I want to look at Ant-Man since you brought it up. A lot of people will look at it and say it's hero vs villain. Through that lens, it's easy to pick apart the film and say it doesn't hit any emotional peaks. But that would be wrong. The film isn't about a hero versus a villain, it's about a man wanting to be more involved in his daughter's life. The emotional danger isn't him needing to rescue his daughter from the villain, but whether or not his actions will lead to him being allowed to see his daughter. Throughout the film, he's pushed away from his daughter, so he does what he can so he can get closer to her. But his actions are misguided and lead to her being in danger.
Eternals, on the other hand, doesn't do a good job with emotional danger, or impact. But that's not because it's a superhero film, that's because it's not a good film.
@@rhuntern You make a good point about Ant-Man, but I still think the outcome of the story is, to a degree, predetermined, because a dour ending where Scott never gets to see his daughter again would be jarringly inconsistent with the tone of the film up to that point. In that way, superhero films almost function like the romance genre, where the predetermined outcome is more or less a genre requirement, depending on who you ask. Now don't get me wrong; I love a good romance, but I do think they benefit when their formulas are shaken up a bit (as in a few films this very channel has recommended).
But there's another problem, which I think results from many modern writers having decided that action automatically equals plot. In my view, action CAN advance a story's plot, but the only types of events that do so automatically or inherently are definitive decisions being made; characters, groups or natural forces entering or leaving the story; and new pieces of information being revealed. Consider how most fight choreography is basically just violent dancing. Would you care about a film centered on a dance competition if the protagonist's arc didn't intersect in any way with that competition or any of the other contestants, and where the protagonist made no significant decisions and learned no pieces of information while they were dancing? Would anyone care about something like Dancing With The Stars if it was overtly fictional? Compare that to a film like Silver Linings Playbook, where we care greatly about the climactic dance contest because we know the protagonists' ultimate decisions will be impacted by its outcome---whereas, in the average superhero film, the action becomes less about advancing the plot and more of a surface-level stylistic choice because, no matter what happens, superheroes are gonna superhero.
But again, don't take this as me insulting the genre; I really enjoy the MCU (even Ant-Man, which makes up for with effective comedy what it lacks in stakes) and I'm currently loving Moon Knight, whose main protagonist(s?) has consistently had to make choices before, after and even during the action scenes and who falls far enough outside the traditional hero mold that it's actually difficult to pin down exactly what he's going to do in any given situation. Now let's see if the writers can keep it going for three more episodes.
I’m a causal marvel movie seer and I’m getting tired of all these superhero movies coming out. They’re the majority and I wish they would slow down.
Yeah... any themes in the MCU get overshadowed by the quippy comedic dialogue. It's unnatural. And I would say the MCU is damaging to cinema overall since this style of dialogue has leaked into franchises that it has no place in, just look at the new Predator movie or the "your mama" joke in The Last Jedi.
Honestly I like “knowing” what is going to happen. I couldn’t stand the tension in ‘The Departed’ and had to turn it off. I don’t know if it’s my PTSD or if it’s a personality thing, because I’ve always been the type to spoil the ending for myself in books….but I can tell that’s just a personal choice.
I feel like greed has seriously infected the production of super hero movies in the last decade. That's probably the biggest problem with them imo
Old man Joker is not my Joker and purple Thanos is not my Thanos. Adult Starfire from Titans is not my Starfire.
Martin was stating the narrative structure is basically the same throughout each franchise . Not story but the same format e.i hero's journey. Rise ,conflict ,climax ,positive outcome.
I sympathize with Scorsese because cinema is definitely a different experience from superhero films and for him, you see less work of his peers making it to theaters and the kinds of movies that gave you broad experiences. People aren't going to theaters to see unfamiliar stories, with characters they've never seen, with experimentation of its approach like we used to.
This isn't to say superhero films are solely to blame. People like big movie spectacle and always have. Look at the 90's and the boom of bigger than life movies that came from Jurassic Park. Major production companies always look toward what is driving people to the theater. But you can still have untold stories wrapped in that. With superhero films it is so hard to not have "hero experiences hardship, overcomes hardship, saves day" storyline. One way or the other, you know what you get when you go see a superhero movie.
Having said all that. I love both but even I'm getting bored with superhero film after superhero film. It makes you wonder what kind of movies could be made in their place by these production companies and what other films you missed when they were grabbing your attention.
As someone who also loves both and will probably still watch whatever new thing Marvel puts out (unless reviews drive me otherwise), I definitely still get this. Sadly yeah, major studios will naturally just stick to whatever is profitable - and unfortunately the cash cows they've stuck to (i.e. remakes, reboots, and superhero films) don't make for many "untold stories". I adore a lot of Marvel and DC's stuff and even then I think a good chunk of their narratives can blend in with one another.
That said (I think I mentioned this in another comment) I do think superheroes on TV have been getting a little more creative lately. I particularly love The Boys and Invincible - those two kinda turn a lot of familiar genre tropes and cliches on their head.
Regardless, that's the realm of TV; we can still do better with cinema and movie theatres in showcasing new stories, voices, and genres these days.
@@ana-isabel Completely agreed and I don't necessarily think superhero films don't have something to offer. Unbreakable (M. Night Shyamalan) is my favorite superhero movie of all time and it gets overlooked because it's not that traditionally what people expect from a superhero narrative. And that's just an example but I feel like other movies do commentary on superheroes and the story of the character isn't so much the focus as the message of the movie. I'd love to see more films like Unbreakable.
One point I haven't seen is that a small character-driven drama works perfectly fine on TV. But a big effects movie is different on a huge silver screen.
Going to a Marvel movie and expecting an exploration of human experience is like going to McD's and hoping for a fancy dinner. I waited till Endgame came out and saw all the movies, but I couldn't recall the story of 25% of them if it depended on my life. Not trying to be snob or something, that is my experience. That's when I checked out. Even RedLetterMedia, my go-to movie channel, just stopped featuring them and it's literally their job. I'll never understand why they hire great directors and tell them to basically do the same movie.
If you saw all the movies in such shirt time span how will you remember everything.Its well over 25 movies you have to remember. Your fault on being late to the franchise
If you think all the marvrl movies are the same,than that's very ingenuine because it's not true.Its a very shallow lazy form of critique. Just because they are Superhero movies with a structured formula doesn't mean they are the same.Its like saying all the gangster movies of Scircese are the same.
@@diannajennings266 I mean i think it can be a valid criticism. Though I enjoyed many of the films in phase 1 or 2, a lot of them feel like retreads. I love Doctor Strange, but his arc is SO similar to that of Tony Stark’s in so many ways.
I also think that the corporate nature of Disney waters down some of the issues and themes the films attempts to address and does kinda box in the director. I think Marvel is doing a lot better job of giving their directors a little more freedom now, but we lost the chance to see Marvel films by directors like Patty Jenkins and Edgar Wright because Disney was over concerned with setup. AoS, in my opinion, is the worst Avengers film because it concerns itself too much with setup.
Films like Black Panther and Thor Ragnarok address ideas of colonialism, repatriation, and imperialism, but they do so in a very watered down and inconsequential way. Thor Ragnarok really loses that focus past the second act.
I love these movies, but they are not perfect, and I tend to agree they can’t really do everything that non-commercialized films can. But, the same goes for vice versa.
@@Maxops500 That's because with all honesty Avengers was the beginning of the end. Iron Man, Captian America and Hulk are solid solo pieces. The Spidey movies all good because it's really hard to mess up Spider-Man. Yet when it came to the other movies mainly Thor oh man they sucked. Winter Soldier was the Apex of the MCU for a lot of people because it was that damn good.
@@ExeErdna I actually kinda disagree with you. While Iron Man 1 and Captain America were great, I really think the MCU didn’t really find its footing until phase 3 or 4. I think the MCU films have been good overall, though they are still highly standardized, and don’t really have any nuanced themes or messages, due to corporate meddling.
Big props Ana this was very well put together and presented. I love how articulate you are! You see both sides although your fan hood is showing and you're cool with that ,and that's cool with me 😁
I hereby offer this comment to the algorithm god
You have a badass name.
The 80s and early 90s was saturated with movies about cops or vigilantes fighting or shooting a bunch of bad guys. The vigilantes were usually former cops or soldiers. From the thirties through the early 70s there was an obsession with westerns.
As someone that never hopped on the superhero bandwagon, I've been tired of this trend since it's inception. A creatively bankrupt industry stumbles upon a seemingly endless trove of other people's work and decides that looks mighty profitable. No thanks, I'm done supporting people trying to cash in on the hard work of others. It's no different with the constant LotR content being rehashed over and over again. I'm so bored of the rings at this point, no amount of hype will convince me to watch yet another adaptation. Tell an original story for once and that will get my attention.
Half of Scorsese's movies are book adaptations dude.
@@JayGriffinblaze who said anything about Scorsese? I never mentioned him once. His comments may have started this discussion, yet not once did i hold him up as an example of how to do things. Don't put words in my mouth
@@ShirleyTimple The video does?
Superhero fatigue is currently a myth. Sure some people are tired of them but that can be said for any genre of movie. True 'insert genre' fatigue would result in a rapid decline in consumption and production of that type of movie much like the YA movies experienced a few years back. Ultimately its supply and demand, and some people are just salty that the films they demand arent desired by enough people to guarantee a large supply. If people didnt want to see superhero films, they would stop making them due to the revenue not justifying the cost.
Agreed - as much as many may now be tired of the genre's saturation, average theatregoers are still turning up to these in overwhelming numbers. I mean, despite the awful reviews Morbius got, apparently it still topped the box office 🤷🏻♀️
That said, it'd be interesting to see how well the genre fares in the next few years - particularly with Marvel. While I personally feel like the hype isn't the same post-Endgame, their branching out to serialized TV has been pretty interesting.
@@ana-isabel I think marvel has perfected their formula to the point they could keep going for many years to come. Maybe not as strong as the past as people inevitably get bored of things they like + new competing trends (my moneys on the anime live action becoming the next big boom once someone perfects the formula), but the past 14 years has shown the mcu still has strong legs with its latest film spiderman NWH making 1.9B at the box office. The hype decrease is hard to measure as post endgame, all the movies except spiderman FFH were affected by a covid world in 2021 where many still didnt want to go to the cinemas.
I feel If the genre does take a massive decline in popularity i think it will be due to leeches like sony and WB trying to ride the coat tales of the mcu and failing, which is how we get travesties like venom, morbius and whatever the dceu is calling itself nowadays. Those are the moves that cause audiences to lose confidence in the genre and lead to its decline.
As someone who prefers TV over Film, i welcome the mcu embracing the format as it just means rather than 6 hours of content (people complain about the mcu being over saturated but it has only had like 6 hours of content a year for the past decade), it will have closer to 26 hours of content a year (which which may become too oversaturated but no-one is being forced to watch these things)
I got to agree with Scorsese. Marvel movies have too much hype, and it’s nothing but action piece. Forgotten by next year.
I do enjoy the Marvel movies of previous phases, but this most recent one does seem like a conveyor belt of bland action pieces lately. I've already forgotten most of Multiverse of Madness.
@@ana-isabel they've always been a conveyor belt of nonsense.
@@ana-isabelHave your thoughts changed at all after the Marvels?
If you're not a fan of the genre, I respect that. The notion that everyone is sick of superhero movies or that they aren't cinema when the entire world disagrees with you renders you unqualified as an expert.
*Superhero fatigue is bull ish, what we are fatigued with is studio executive interference, cynical corporate cashgrabs, and trend chasing*
If you don't know or don't care about the intellectual property you plan to make a movie or television show out of, you are unqualified to adapt that property and the quality will render your adaptation a failure.
I've never understood where this fatigue comes from for a general audience. I've always just watched what I was interested and skipped the rest like I do with comics.
I basically stopped watching Marvel movies after Avengers (a few here and there based on critical and personal acclaim), but I'm still undergoing the fatigue. Just because I'm not watching them doesn't change the mammoth presence they have in popular culture right now. I have no desire to watch the new Spider-Man, and I haven't actively sought out anything about it, but I know a ton about it because it's unavoidable. Obviously everyone is going to have different reactions, and I am genuinely happy for people who find happiness at whatever level they engage in, but I feel it's important to note that the fatigue comes not just from watching the movies, but from their omnipresence in the cultural landscape overall.
A lot of people used to watch every marvel movie wether they’re good or bad because they were building to something bigger. Now that it’s finally over, there’s not much reason to watch the bad ones. That’s why black widow was marvels first flop. Then all those Disney+ shows that were at best mediocre and just don’t have enough interest and hype.
@@kylevernon So basically Comics… no one reads all the comics. They just read the once that interest them. Happily there are enough of them that if you have any interest at all in the genre you should be able to find something that works for you.
Also, it’s a little silly to imply that Black Widow being the first MCU movie released during a global pandemic had nothing to do with why it flopped.
@@imissimeem I guess I just have a hard time understanding how someone else’s enjoyment of something would give you fatigue. There are many things in our culture that are widely beloved and thus omnipresent that I don’t personally care about (i.e. Friends, The Office, The Simpsons, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones.)
They may not be my cup of tea, but clearly many others enjoy them and I’m not going to resent or shut down others enjoyment just because I didn’t feel the same.
While it's true that I can just not watch the superhero movies, I still can't avoid them. Every time I turn around I'm being punched in the face with ads and merch and posts and posters and billboards and they're splashed all over the streaming services. I can't even walk down the cereal aisle without Wonder Woman jumping out of a bowl of cheerios.
I'm usually of the opinion that you should let people enjoy what they enjoy, but I really wish companies would stop b*tch-slapping me with superheroes from dawn to dusk.
This was a fantastic video! I really appreciate the way you broke down everything and allowed both sides of the argument room to breathe. Well done!
One thing I will say that “fatigues” me is that the movies are NOT easy to just rewatch for specific characters. I watched WandaVision and was fascinated by the character of Wanda Maximoff even though I never really thought much of her before WandaVision and wanted to watch the earlier parts with her… not exactly a great pursuit when I have to watch movies where she’s a side characters that had only a handful of scenes. So it feels like this hyper universe-focus does diminish the fun of a franchise where the focus is on one character primarily like how the actually good superhero movies like the good pre-cinematic universe Spider-Man, Batman, and Superman movies were.
Yeah, I totally get this. It's hard for me to get family and friends into the MCU for the first time when it's this huge sort of cinematic commitment. Or they check out a crossover movie out of curiosity and I have to fill them in on previous plotlines, character arcs, etc. (I saw No Way Home with my mom the first time I saw it, and having seen none of the previous Tom Holland or Andrew Garfield films, the references or emotional beats were kinda lost on her.)
So yeah, the downside to cinematic universes is having to "do your homework" to fully understand most films - which can become a burden to newcomers, putting them off movies they may have otherwise been interested in.
@@ana-isabel What I found hard was having to recall things from the earlier movies where Wanda was a secondary character. I sort of forgot about her accidental destruction and casualties from it during Civil War and a few things about her origin from her first appearance and having to rewatch a film that isn't really "about" her to do my homework to watch a series about her was kind of something I just forgot I needed to do. It makes it harder than just watching a movie like rewatching the first movie before its sequel.
While I agree with Scorsese’s greater point about the atmosphere in the industry right now, what really gets to me is the specific comparison to theme parks. I’m a huge theme park fan, and if you talk to any of my friends then they will tell you that I’m basically a walking encyclopedia of Disney World and Universal (the big ones in America). And it’s not because I necessarily like the companies that make them (I LARGELY disagree with so many things they do). It’s because there’s so much rich history and emotion poured into these experiences by the people who create them, despite the fact that they largely go uncredited for their work. Hell, the amount of detail that goes into these parks is arguably more akin to an interactive art museum than a rollercoaster at your local county fair. So, comparing Marvel movies to theme parks as a way to discredit them as “not cinema” is inherently an oxymoron to me. I feel just as much emotion and storytelling walking through the Tower of Terror lobby as I do watching a scene from Ladybird.
This is so interesting and something I never considered - thanks for sharing! The comparison is a pretty flawed/dismissive one now that you put it that way. I'm not a huge theme park expert but I do love my Disneylands and your description of them as well thought-out, interactive museums is wholly accurate - it's actually an artform that doesn't get enough credit itself.
I guess if Scorsese was specifically talking about fairs and such, it'd be a closer comparison.
"A comically booding edgelord...Snyder". I'd take that over shitty and less charming versions of 80s cartoons. This whole mandate that characters are "boring" because they don't crack jokes is why MCU humor is so bad. MCU movies feel like they were made for people with low attention spans but then again I have a low attention span and I find them insulting.
I don't think Snyder's movies are great but an antagonistic attutitudes like this is why the DCEU is such a mess. WB made Josstice League which emulated the MCU and no one liked it except for hardcore Snyder haters and now you have a movie universe that is a complete and utter mess.
It's funny to me, you seem to be quite the DC fan and know a lot about DC comics but when it comes to Marvel you don't know nearly as much. And that is who the MCU appeals to, they appeal to people who don't know anything about Marvel and since so much of Marvel's heroes outside of F4, X-Men, Hulk and Spider-Man are not super well known, it is easier to make a well produced shallow adaptation of lesser known Marvel characters and get away with the bs, unlike Superman and Batman.
The MCU just feels like a big budget parody of Marvel comics. If Disney wanted to make that, then they sure are convincing.
Besides that, the MCU isn't even well planned at all, Thanos was only in the first Avengers because Whedon liked the character, which is why he never does ANYTHING and we just see his face for 5 seconds for every movie before Infinity War. The MCU is the first to do it, not because it was good.
If you want to compare the MCU to a TV show, then it's a shit one.
As a film student, I'll say this:
We all love a greatly emotional movie with deep themes that is (mostly) untainted by the big hollywood schemes of the greatest enterprises.
However, we wouldn't have some of the best cultural pieces without the comercial stuff. I mean, I too hate the blandness of Michael Bay movies, but without em, we wouldn't have the (now really old) meme of people randomly running with Linkin park music and fake explosions behind them at full blast.
In general, it's all about balance. How could we live peacefully if all the movies we've got were deeply-emotional and reflective? We'd be anxious, thinking of the sadness of life all the time. And, if we didn't have some "brain-off, popcorn-on" movies, we wouldn't be able to feel so happy and excited when a truly magnificent piece of cinema is in front of us. Furthermore, no one can say what is and isn't art. Movies are art and, if there is an emotion behind it, no matter how bland it might seem for you or I, it is still valid as art.
I've been reading comic books for a very long time. I'm always elated whenever they make one of these movies. It's as if the characters I've been reading about leapt off the page. To be perfectly honest, I feel like I really don't want any of these to end. Fatigue or not.
You're a self described fan of comics. Of course YOU like these films because YOU are invested in the characters. Not everyone is into comics, though. Very few people are,on a per capita basis. So the fact that the entire industry is pumping out franchise after franchise that only a small portion of the population is actually invested in means the industry will eventually doom itself. This very video is a symptom of the fact.
@@ShirleyTimple fair
@@ShirleyTimple but you can't blame me for wanting more this stuff can ya?
@@adrianvelante8014 not at all, you do you. Just don't be surprised when the bottom falls out of the comic book film industry, because it won't be around forever. Game of Thrones was a cultural powerhouse for a decade until it just wasn't.
@@ShirleyTimple Yes. Very few people actually read comics, but the fact that these movies continue to make so much money means that it’s not just comic book fans that are invested in these characters and stories.
If Disney was willing to step out of their comfort zone with some of the Marvel shows, that would be great. So far we keep getting the same thing on Disney Plus. Despite Wanda vision, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, and Loki all having different settings and characters, the similar tone and lack of anything ground breaking made them kinda boring. Wanda vision was promising at first, but then developed into the same boring sludge. I haven't seen Hawkeye, and I don't intend to. If they could make a show like Daredevil, that would be awesome. Maybe it could help if they leaned a little more into setting a different tone for each show, giving the heroes more well defined and stronger powers. Deal with themes other than just family, and finding people to like you.
And get some actual threatening, well characterized villains!
So true - out of the three you've mentioned I loved Wandavision the most, but I absolutely agree that it was its strongest during the first few eps... right before it settled back into its usual safe, spy-action-thriller tricks (still really enjoyed it overall, but I wish it doubled-down on how weird it was in the beginning). Loki had fun stuff going for it but I don't know - I felt like it never pushed the strange ideas it had far enough? And F&TWS was average imo; had interesting themes but its execution had that bland coat of paint typical of the MCU's most forgettable. All this said though - the new Moon Knight series has promising direction (though I've yet to catch up on the second ep, so fingers crossed 🤞)
i would ad that some of the MCU characters get changed in ways that are unrecognisable to long time fans of the character. like peter parker had his character excedingly nerfed and religated to a toney stark fan boy for the mcu. it took them how many films to get wandas powers right and make her not the mcu trying to have jeen grey in it while fox still owned the rights to the character.
I just came to respond to the title. I have no fatigue of superheroes. I'm seeing stuff in live action that I dreamed about as a kid and never imagined I'd see. Bring it on.
Marvel action sequences can feel very formulaic, they are apparently outside the Director's control anyway. There is a fair bit of variety outside the action.
@@ana-isabel My name's not Barry :) - did you intend to reply to a different comment?
@@simontmn ahh yes, sorry about that! It happened with another comment - seems like TH-cam Studio glitched up when I was responding to people 😅
I agree with you though, Marvel's fight scenes have a level of samey-ness to them; and with them taking up a good chunk of each movie, the films can sometimes feel like they blend in with one another. Directors _apparently_ don't get as much control with the action sequences, at least from the accounts of a select few.
@@ana-isabel Thanks Ana! Yes I've seen the Directors comment how they are basically taken out of the room for the fight scenes. So any distinctiveness must come from the talky parts. I think this can sometimes be harmful, eg Black Widow would have worked better if the action scenes more resembled a James Bond film, rather than the standard Marvel feel.
The Marvel movies are getting old. They're not about the heroes anymore let alone the story.
It's a cash grab because they know most people will go and see it.
Marvel films (as is all fantastical genre movies) are 90% spectacle and 10% substance/character driven, where is none blockbuster type movies such as those made by Scorsese and his ilk and 100% substance/character driven stories. I enjoy both, but would rather live in a world without spectacle movies than character driven ones.
Your Starfire cosplay is ON POINT!
I'll be honest, a lot of the MCU fits that theme park argument. Not very cinematic, nor inspired. I'd be interested to hear Scorcese's opinion on the DCEU
This all reminds me of ubisoft open world games and fatigue of some gamers for the 'formula'.
In focusing on surface appearance the substance beneath is neglected...
Goethe's prelude in the theatre for Faust examines this relationship between poet, producer, and performer.
I saw Iron Man 1 & 2 realized I had like ten more movies and was like “okay, that’s enough”
Iron man 2 is widely considered in the bottom 5 of marvels 27 films and some consider it the worst so if you checked out after that one you missed out on the greatest over arcing story cinema has ever produced. We all have gaps in our movie viewing. Mine is the Harry Potter series. I know at some point I have to watch these movies and will probably love them but for me it has never peaked my interest. Just letting you know that the mcu really does go from good to great to fantastic.
@@teddyking6563 In hindsight Iron Man 2 is superior to most of the shallow repetitive releases that followed
Wow, you give up on things like super easy. There’s key movies you could have watched instead. Iron Man 1 and 2 are probably the least important and weren’t part of the big picture yet since was before Disney bought Marvel. Sad you won’t ever get to experience WandaVision or Infinity War or even Loki as they were meant to be. I had my parents watch all important films. My mom did not want to watch them but enjoyed every one I showed her and built such a strong feeling that by the time we got to WandaVision she was crying from love of these characters and was absolutely heartbroken at the end of Infinity War.
You give up super easy. Lame.
Superhero films are the new spaghetti western. They'll be a phenomenon till they're not
Good analogy.
I very much lost interest after ultron, there just wasn't enough to keep me invested. But I do see the positives of such a subject becoming popular, what it's done to blur the line between 'normie' and 'nerd' and just overall making more stereotypical 'nerd' subjects more acceptable. I do have an issue with limiting creativity for the sake of money, which is exactly what ended up happening. As well what it's done to the vfx industry, there seriously needs to be a union of some kind as it still isn't as respected as actors or writers. Plus the lengths taken to the point where the actors don't know who their acting with, for what scene or movie, and not knowing until release is redonk.